RE: [backstage] More iPlayer protesting

[Christopher Woods]

The quality was abysmal though, and RealVideo? Urgh.

The simile employed in the DbD article is a little inaccurate, the more I
think about it; the BBC's choice of MS-based systems for its iPlayer
platform is more like their choice to broadcast in PAL - more or less an
international industry standard, even with its flaws (and subsequent
improvements and patches)... Because even PAL, as a standard, as it exists
today, has been quite significantly modified in its operation and
composition when compared against how it existed when it was first used.

So, it's more like the BBC saying "well, you can choose to tune your TV by
any broadcasting standard you wish - NTSC, SECAM or PAL, but you'll only get
our channels if you use the PAL standard. They're not forcing ownership of
any one OS onto users, in fact I've never actually bought a copy of Windows
in my life (when I was younger, I used a computer which came with it
pre-supplied, and I've had a couple of dodgy copies in my time but my
University gave me a copy of XP Pro and WS2003 as part of their MS
programme)... I know the simile starts to fall over there, because the Beeb
is compelled to make it available to as many people as possible.


However, here's something for the rest of you to pick apart:

If the BBC decided that, by making available the iPlayer using the framework
as it exists today, with MS DRM and Kontiki as the CDN, running on a Windows
NT5/6 OS, they were making their content available to as many people as
humanly possible within the reasonable expectations of a wildly-varied
install base of computers and network configurations, would they really be
THAT far off the mark, and wouldn't that on its own be justification for how
they eventually went about rolling out iPlayer?

Having Windows installed on most of the computers around the world makes it
a good starting point for common ground, as does using MS DRM - again,
something which is quite well integrated into the OS (overlooking its
well-known flaws for now, but every DRM scheme has those, blah blah blah).
The technology is quite mature now, and works quite well in most cases
(although this 4OD/Sky/BBC clash is going to cause problems down the line)
the sheer amount of installed copies of Windows on computers worldwide
perhaps makes it the most viable option for the BBC to choose / have chosen?

Not that I'm condoning the choice, personally I'll always prefer an agnostic
system, but, well, maybe the BBC were just realists when it came to the
practicalities of development cost versus ROI from creating versions for
(EXTREMELY) minority OSes? I mean, come on, hands up who here on the list
uses Linux as their primary OS. For pretty much everybody here, it's
probably gotta be either a flavour of Windows or OSX (given that many
creative media types seem to gravitate towards the prettier, sorry, more
aesthetically-pleasing Macs). I know that OSX development got a whole lot
easier when his Jobsiness decreed the change to Mactels, but it's still
another dollop of man months to get it ported and working as well as the
Win32 build.

Percentages speak a lot to people signing off on cheques to fund development
lifecycles... What's the takeup of Windows versus Mac? Inc. Technology has
this article
(http://technology.inc.com/hardware/articles/200707/macvspc.html) which has
2006 business usage figures:

Linux -- 1 percent 
Mac OS X -- 1 percent 
Windows XP -- 71 percent 
Windows 2000 -- 20 percent 
Windows "other" (primarily Windows 95, 98 and ME) -- 7 percent. 

The home user has much less of a tie to Windows than businesses do, with
their bulk licensing schemes and long-term investmnents in bespoke soft- and
hardware solutions... But even so, there's not reallly that much
incentive to change, and if a user's been using one OS for a while, they'll
likely stick with it. OSX still only has a 6% market share (reference:
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/23/1840206&from=rss and
discussion based on same statistics at
http://www.macsimumnews.com/index.php/archive/mac_os_x_usage_up_down_or_flat
/)... Whilst no means the only authoritative figures, I'd hazard that
they're fairly representative of real-world usage. Even if Apple has seen
that 33% increase in year-on-year growth of unit sales, their installbase is
still but a mere dollop of ketchup next to the pack of quarter-pounders that
is the Windows PC installbase, and I also think the amount of new PCs being
sold with Windows on trounces the amount of new Macs being sold, whichever
way you look at it.

>From a CNET article comment on those same statistics, I saw this:

According to IDC:

Apple's worldwide share is in the Others category, behind HP, behind Dell,
behind Lenovo, behind Acer, and behind Toshiba.
HP's worldwide share is 19.3% with 36.5% growth. 

http://news.com.com/5208-10784_3-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=29486&messageID=2
93420&start=-1

More in-depth coverage of the IDC figures here:
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/07/18/app

Re: [backstage] More iPlayer protesting

[Martin Belam]

"From today, you will need to own a Microsoft operating system to view
BBC programming on the web. This is akin to saying you must own a Sony
TV set to watch BBC TV."

He's quite right, because when they launched the trial of the iPlayer,
the BBC shut off the cross-platform system they *used* to run that
allowed you to watch hundreds of hours of BBC TV on the web on-demand
for nothing ;-)

cheers,
martin






On 31/07/07, Gordon Joly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 19:41 +0100 31/7/07, Dave Crossland wrote:
> >On 30/07/07, Jeremy Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >>  From time to time there has been (mostly around iPlayer) some strong
> >>  criticism of how the BBC develops products. That's good.
> >
> >http://www.defectivebydesign.org/blog/BBCcorrupted
> >
> >August 14th seems like a date for the diary :-)
> >
>
>
> Channels, IE 4?
>
> Gordo
>
> --
> "Think Feynman"/
> http://pobox.com/~gordo/
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]///
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> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please 
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Re: [backstage] More iPlayer protesting

[Gordon Joly]

At 19:41 +0100 31/7/07, Dave Crossland wrote:

On 30/07/07, Jeremy Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


 From time to time there has been (mostly around iPlayer) some strong
 criticism of how the BBC develops products. That's good.


http://www.defectivebydesign.org/blog/BBCcorrupted

August 14th seems like a date for the diary :-)




Channels, IE 4?

Gordo

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Re: [backstage] Invite from Werner Ramaekers ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

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Re: [backstage] Making the underground accessible to all

[Michael Sparks]

On Tuesday 31 July 2007 19:50, Dave Crossland wrote:
> There are efforts to make unauthorised sharing of television as easy
> as possible though, such as http://www.rulecam.net/ted/ and this makes
> a mockery of highly restricted systems that abuse the public's rights,

You're saying that "unauthorised sharing" is a right? Last time I looked it 
wasn't. If you want to change copyright, lobby the government. Last time I 
looked people got VERY upset if the BBC took a political stance on something.

You're appear to be advocating people break the law, whilst mocking the
BBC for respecting the state granted monopoly rights of those who make
the programmes it distributes.

Copyright is a fact of life today. iPlayer may have problems from your 
perspective, but it does do something that "TED" doesn't do: it specifically 
enables people to get at content perfectly legally, without breaking the law, 
and people using it can be happy that anything they get that way won't get 
them in trouble with some rights holder.

*THAT* is an achievement, and its a very important achievement, and one 
incredibly easy to overlook because you're defending the "rights" of others 
to unauthorised sharing.

Can it be done in better ways? Sure - all technology can be improved.

I would **personally** appreciate people NOT discussing personal politics on
this list. I'd also personally appreciate people not encouraging people to 
break the law on this list.

BUT that's just my personal opinion. If its considered fair game, I may as 
well unsubscribe - after all the BBC works within the law, it doesn't make 
the law, and people get extremely upset when the BBC *does* play politics.


Michael.
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RE: [backstage] Edinburgh TV Un-festival- 25th August

[Abigail Dankwa]

Hi Ian,

I seem to have missed the sign up for the UnFest, would you be able to let
me know, where I can sign up if it's still available.

Best wishes,

Abigail

-- 
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Head of Programme Acquisitions
Community Channel
3-7 Euston Square
Regent's Place
London 
NW1 3RG
DL:  +44 20 7874 7645
F:+44 20 7874 7644
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Watch the Community Channel 
Watch Community Channel on Sky 539 Virgin TV 233 Freeview 87 or
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This e-mail, its contents & any files transmitted with it are confidential &
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made to this e-mail after it was sent.
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mr I Forrester
Sent: 11 July 2007 13:10
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: Re: [backstage] Edinburgh TV Un-festival- 25th August

Sorry it doesn't give you access on Friday.

Jeremy Stone wrote:
>
> The TV festival runs from Friday PM (the MacTaggart lecture is 
> traditionally on Friday night. This year its Jeremy Paxman).
> All day Saturday and until mid afternoon Sunday.
>
> As part of the Unfest you get tickets to the TV fest Saturday night 
> bash/dinner and the traditional TV fest events on Sunday.
> Ian  - does an unfest ticket entitle you to tickets to the mactaggart. 
> it would be good if it does.
>
>
>
>
> thanks
> Jem
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Brian Butterworth
> Sent: Tue 7/10/2007 12:53 PM
> To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> Subject: Re: [backstage] Edinburgh TV Un-festival- 25th August
>
> I mean at the George Hotel on the Friday night... best networking event
> ever... ever...
>
> On 10/07/07, Brian Butterworth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Ian,
> >
> > Will this include access to the late nights (drinks) at the TV Festival
> > too?
> >
> >
> >  On 09/07/07, Ian Forrester <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi All,
> > >
> > > I wanted to fill you all in on a event we've been working on 
> behind the
> > > scenes. And this time its not in London ;)
> > >
> > > Here's the official blurb...
> > > "This year the MGEITF has spawned its own fringe event, the 
> Un-Festival.
> > > This day-long event which takes place on Saturday 25 August will 
> centre
> > > around the clash of the well established TV world and the constantly
> > > accelerating Internet world using the unusual un-conference 
> format, where
> > > the cost of entry is participation.
> > >
> > > The highlights from the Un-Festival will be presented at this special
> > > session, giving everyone a chance to speculate on the future of 
> TV, online
> > > entertainment and cross platform narratives."
> > >
> > > Every year the international TV festival holds a few sessions on the
> > > future of online TV, etc. Every year it falls short of the mark. 
> Well not
> > > this year because BBC Backstage is running the show.
> > >
> > > I'm getting together a real solid line up of people including people
> > > from Joost, Microsoft, BT, BBC, Google, etc. But I'm also inviting 
> some of
> > > the people from the darker areas of online TV like the guys behind 
> some of
> > > the cleverest p2p sites online today.
> > >
> > > Generally the mix should be quite amazing, but we're not done yet.
> > > Everyone who goes to the fringe un-festival will receive a free 
> ticket into
> > > the main dinner on Saturday night and Free entry on Sunday all day.
> > >
> > > How's that for a deal?
> > >
> > > I'll be launching the sign up page for the event soon with lots more
> > > details but till then get your hotels booked. I hope to see you 
> all there!
> > >
> > >
> > > Ian Forrester
> > >
> > > This e-mail is: [ ] private; [ x ] ask first; [  ] bloggable
> > >
> > > Senior Producer, BBC Backstage
> > > BC5 C3, Media Village, 201 Wood Lane, London W12 7TP
> > > e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > p: +44 (0)2080083965
> > >
> > > -
> > > Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe,
> > > please visit
> > > http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.  
> Unofficial
> > > list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Please email me back if you need any more help.
> >
> > Brian Butterworth
> > www.ukfree.tv
>
>
>
>
> --
> Please email me back if you need any more help.
>
> Brian Butterworth
> www.ukfree.tv
>


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Uno

Re: [backstage] Making the underground accessible to all

[Dave Crossland]

On 31/07/07, Otu Ekanem <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> isn't
> unreasonable to think that that percentage, like me, will open this
> particular thread expecting something related to our antiquated albeit
> better than none transport system: The London Underground.

Otu, that's a fair point; I was referring to the 'copyright
underground,' as in unauthorized file sharing on p2p networks, which
is traditionally not very accessible for computer novices, and often
is utterly elitist, like say http://oink.cd/

There are efforts to make unauthorised sharing of television as easy
as possible though, such as http://www.rulecam.net/ted/ and this makes
a mockery of highly restricted systems that abuse the public's rights,
like the BBC iPlayer.

-- 
Regards,
Dave
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[backstage] More iPlayer protesting

[Dave Crossland]

On 30/07/07, Jeremy Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> From time to time there has been (mostly around iPlayer) some strong
> criticism of how the BBC develops products. That's good.

http://www.defectivebydesign.org/blog/BBCcorrupted

August 14th seems like a date for the diary :-)

-- 
Regards,
Dave
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Re: [backstage] iPlayer Today?

[Adam Leach]

Andy wrote:

On 29/07/07, mike chamberlain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  

Options 3, Buy an off the shelf solution and use it. Bonus points if
the people whose content your licensing are happy with it and will
endemnify you against someone cracking it.


Yes use an Off the shelf solution, provided it satisfies the criteria
"Platform Neutral". The BBC's claim "We had no choice but to use MS
DRM" is clearly false as there where 2 perfectly good options.
  
What are these two perfectly good options that could provide the same 
fuctionality as Microsoft DRM & Kontiki.


Adam

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Re: [backstage] iPlayer Today?

[Andy]

On 29/07/07, mike chamberlain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Options 3, Buy an off the shelf solution and use it. Bonus points if
> the people whose content your licensing are happy with it and will
> endemnify you against someone cracking it.

Yes use an Off the shelf solution, provided it satisfies the criteria
"Platform Neutral". The BBC's claim "We had no choice but to use MS
DRM" is clearly false as there where 2 perfectly good options.

Instead the BBC flush several million down the drain as poor design
decision mean most of iPlayer is now likely useless for a platform
neutral version.

It's written in C. Yes C can be platform neutral but the BBC has made
sure it isn't!
C is of course a compiled language. Thus to get it to run on a
platform it must be compiled for that platform (obviously).

So the only ways I can think of right now for getting a platform
independent C implementation:
1. Provide Source Code and ensure the code is platform neutral
(conforming to standards such as POSIX).
2. Compile it to a "Virtual Machine", an instruction set that doesn't
really exist but can be implemented on any OS and have iPlayer run on
top of it.

There may be other ways, if so suggest them. But remember "platform
neutral" so it must favour no particular platform or platforms.



> "If you think cryptography will solve your problem, you don't know anything
> about cryptography, and you don't understand your problem."

"If you think DRM will solve your problem, you don't know anything
  about DRM or how CPU's function, and you don't understand your problem."

Crypto is used on most DRM implementations. Thus if you say to some
rights holder "Look really powerful crypto, state of the art, takes
trillions of years to brute force this key" they'll shut up and let
you use it. The BBC managed to con their media people into believing
Microsoft DRM was secure, and then waited for it to be cracked before
releasing iPlayer.

Of course the fact it takes trillions of years to brute force the key
is worthless when you put the key in the hands of the "attacker"
(apparently all users are "attackers", nice to be treated like scum by
public organisations you are forced to pay for.)


> Given we all know DRM's broken, yet is mandated by the people who
> own the content, what's better for the BBC to do? Write it's own and
> be responsible
> for fixing any breakages, or use one the content providers are happy with?

Write it's own. The other one is not "platform neutral" and will have
to re engineered anyway.
Is it better to get it right first time, or to waste large amounts of
money on implementations that are unworkable under your regulators
restrictions?

Mind you the BBC could always rig a few competitions if it gets short
of cash. Wouldn't be the first time would it ;).

A simply way of seeing why the BBC did what it did would be to look at
the iPlayer Feasibility Study, where is that document? Can I see it?
Google can't find it so it's probably not on the publicly accessible
web.

Andy


-- 
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Re: [backstage] Making the underground accessible to all

[Otu Ekanem]

On 7/31/07, David Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, 2007-07-27 at 19:03 +0100, Dave Crossland wrote:
> > On 27/07/07, vijay chopra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Sun opened Java a while ago:
> > > http://www.sun.com/2006-1113/feature/
> > > it's free now.

Hey guys,

I understand this list has a global audience, but as I imagine a huge
proportion of subscribers will be in or around London, it isn't
unreasonable to think that that percentage, like me, will open this
particular thread expecting something related to our antiquated albeit
better than none transport system: The London Underground.

I am not very sure what Sun's move to open up Java's source has to do
with The Underground or any underground for that matter - but the
title __is__  just plain confusing.


*wonders silently if this is another one of "Those Things I Wrote"(tm)
which will forever haunt me as I leave footprints across the interweb.


-- 
Otu Ekanem

http://rants.ekanem.de
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RE: [backstage] iPlayer Today?

[Gordon Joly]

At 11:34 +0100 31/7/07, Dylan Dawes wrote:

I'd be interested to hear how others fare with iPlayer on their laptops.
I installed 4OD on mine recently and the  CPU-hogging blighter brought
the whole thing to a virtual standstill even when it wasn't in "active"
use (I had to take it off in the end). So I'm not falling over myself to
install the iPlayer, as I'd like to still be able to use my laptop for
things other than catching up with great TV, like writing the occasional
email ... :)

Dylan.

I'm new here ... Sorry



Welcome. I am an old lag.

I have a HP laptop: AMD processor running at 1.6 GHZ with one Gigabyte of RAM.

No issues at all with performances. Watching the default size screen 
is breathtaking (I was watching "Mountain with Griff Rhys Jones") but 
not so good full screen (my machine probably has a bog standard 
graphics card).


Gordo

--
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http://pobox.com/~gordo/
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Re: [backstage] iPlayer Today?

[Adam Leach]

Dylan Dawes wrote:

I'd be interested to hear how others fare with iPlayer on their laptops.
I installed 4OD on mine recently and the  CPU-hogging blighter brought
the whole thing to a virtual standstill even when it wasn't in "active"
use (I had to take it off in the end). So I'm not falling over myself to
install the iPlayer, as I'd like to still be able to use my laptop for
things other than catching up with great TV, like writing the occasional
email ... :)

Dylan.

I'm new here ... Sorry
  
With performance and Kontiki, i would recommend disabling the 
kService.exe Service under administration tools in the control panel on 
XP when you are not using 4oD or iPlayer, then you can be sure that you 
are not seeding any programs whilst not downloading anything.


Adam
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RE: [backstage] iPlayer Today?

[Dylan Dawes]

I'd be interested to hear how others fare with iPlayer on their laptops.
I installed 4OD on mine recently and the  CPU-hogging blighter brought
the whole thing to a virtual standstill even when it wasn't in "active"
use (I had to take it off in the end). So I'm not falling over myself to
install the iPlayer, as I'd like to still be able to use my laptop for
things other than catching up with great TV, like writing the occasional
email ... :)

Dylan.

I'm new here ... Sorry

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gordon Joly
Sent: 31 July 2007 11:25
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: RE: [backstage] iPlayer Today?



I have installed the iPlayer on a handy PC (laptop). It was not that 
easy, since you have install libaries etc. Is this user friendly? It 
appeared to need a reboot to work. I didn't read the instructions.

The other thing that fooled me was that as well as the 
username/password sent by email, I had to remember my BBC identity 
(created for "ICAN" a while back, used for the blogs etc now).

Searching is very visual. Dr. Who, Dr. Who, Dr. Who (with pictures 
from the episodes) but you have to select the episode (graphic) link 
before you can see which series and which episode. I read the 
accessibility guidelines.

Just my two cents,

YMMV,

Gordo

-- 
"Think Feynman"/
http://pobox.com/~gordo/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]///
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RE: [backstage] iPlayer Today?

[Gordon Joly]

I have installed the iPlayer on a handy PC (laptop). It was not that 
easy, since you have install libaries etc. Is this user friendly? It 
appeared to need a reboot to work. I didn't read the instructions.


The other thing that fooled me was that as well as the 
username/password sent by email, I had to remember my BBC identity 
(created for "ICAN" a while back, used for the blogs etc now).


Searching is very visual. Dr. Who, Dr. Who, Dr. Who (with pictures 
from the episodes) but you have to select the episode (graphic) link 
before you can see which series and which episode. I read the 
accessibility guidelines.


Just my two cents,

YMMV,

Gordo

--
"Think Feynman"/
http://pobox.com/~gordo/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]///
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Re: [backstage] Making the underground accessible to all

[David Woodhouse]

On Fri, 2007-07-27 at 19:03 +0100, Dave Crossland wrote:
> On 27/07/07, vijay chopra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Sun opened Java a while ago:
> > http://www.sun.com/2006-1113/feature/
> > it's free now.
> 
> Sun announced an intention to release Java under GPLv2.
> 
> It is not free now.
> 
> http://java.sun.com/javase/6/webnotes/README.html

The runtime, compiler and a large proportion of class libraries (Sun
claim 'almost all') have been released.

Some parts are troublesome because of either code or patent licensing,
so there is more to come over the next 6-12 months as those parts get
sorted out or reimplemented.

-- 
dwmw2

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