Re: Prophecy
David, At 11:07 PM 1/22/2004, you wrote: If I didnt know any better I would have said that Abdul-Baha was cheating in order to make 3.5 days into 1260 years. That was first pointed out to me back in the early 1970s by my friend, Paul Harth, a Jehovah's Witness. Since he was interested in prophecy, I bought him a copy of _Some Answered Questions_. Few prophecies, especially biblical number prophecies, have obvious explanations. You have to *make* them fit. Mark A. Foster * http://MarkFoster.net http://CompuServe.MarkFoster.name __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.net/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Prophecy
Few prophecies, especially biblical number prophecies, have obvious explanations. You have to *make* them fit. One thing I find interesting about the biblical prophecy concerning the timing in Daniel is that it appears that it can be interpreted in the same manner it was interpreted to validate Christ (see St. Augustine's City of God, Book 18 Chapter 34 from the fifth century). I've pointed this out before on this list, but here's the link with the exact quote in case anyone missed it. http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m39826.html Patti __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.net/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Prophecy
Patti said: One thing I find interesting about the biblical prophecy concerning the timing in Daniel is that it appears that it can be interpreted in the same manner it was interpreted to validate Christ (see St. Augustine's City of God, Book 18 Chapter 34 from the fifth century). I've pointed this out before on this list, but here's the link with the exact quote in case anyone missed it. http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m39826.html Richard added: It appears as well that the expectancy of the Jews regarding the Coming of Messiah as indicated by the findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls and other evidence of the existence of communes around Jerusalem at the time when Jesus appeared, was based upon the understanding of the 9th Chapter of Daniel. Also, it seems that Miller (of Seventh Dad Adventist fame) and the Carmelite Monks used Daniel to determine the date of the Second Coming using especially Ezekiel, verse 6: Thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.net/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Prophecy
If I didnt know any better I would have said that Abdul-Baha was cheating in order to make 3.5 days into 1260 years. Perhaps Im missing something... The Master's use of a year to represent 360 days and a month 30 etc., is well-established and is really pretty universally accepted by Christians. Just go to www.google.com and in the search box type each day for a year prophecy including the quote marks just that way, and see how many goodies show up. This was not an invention of the Master, but a resolution of Scriptural content with sound reasoning. Someone wrote to the Guardian about the fact that in the Master's interpretation of the Zoroastrian prophecy on p. 101 of WOB, He in one case interpreted a day as a year, in another case day represented one year, and in another case one hundred years. Shoghi Effendi's secretary responded on his behalf: Regarding the question of days referring in some cases to years, and in some cases to centuries in the Tablet to a Zoroastrian follower of the Faith: The only answer we can give people who lack the faith to accept the words of the Master as being divinely inspired interpretations of the truth, is that the language of prophecy has always in the past been veiled in meaning, and that allusions are found in all the Holy Books which cannot be accepted literally, and have not been satisfactorily interpreted until the appearance of this Revelation when, we believe, the books of the past and their mysteries have been at last unsealed. Could anybody find a more logical interpretation of this allusion in the Zoroastrian literature than that given by `Abdu'l-Baha, or one which fits a coherent interpretation of religious history as well as the Master's words do? (Compilation of Compilations, Vol. I, p. 23) When trying to understand the logic of the Master, a satisfying approach is to assume that His motive lies in a lofty direction, never in a base one. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.net/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Prophecy
If I didnt know any better I would have said that Abdul-Baha was cheating in order to make 3.5 days into 1260 years. Perhaps Im missing something... Dear David, Joachim de Flora, the medieval founder of Dispensationalism concluded that 1260 (A.D.) would be the year as well. I think it is pretty well agreed in Biblical scholarship that the figure 1260 and the three and a half days represent the same thing. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.net/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Prophecy
Brent, At 09:48 PM 1/23/2004, you quoted the Guardian's secretary: The only answer we can give people who lack the faith to accept the words of the Master as being divinely inspired interpretations of the truth, is that the language of prophecy has always in the past been veiled in meaning, and that allusions are found in all the Holy Books which cannot be accepted literally, and have not been satisfactorily interpreted until the appearance of this Revelation when, we believe, the books of the past and their mysteries have been at last unsealed. I think that is the main point. We accept `Abdu'l-Baha's interpretation because, as the Guardian appears to have claimed, He had the authority to make it. Could anybody find a more logical interpretation of this allusion in the Zoroastrian literature than that given by `Abdu'l-Baha, or one which fits a coherent interpretation of religious history as well as the Master's words do? IMO, it is substantively logical (Wertrationalitäet), as Weber used the term, in the sense that it follows from the assumptions of the Master. The Guardian also believed that it was isomorphic with religious history, which would be closer to Weber's formal or instrumental rationality (Zweckrationalitäet). Mark A. Foster * http://MarkFoster.net http://CompuServe.MarkFoster.name __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.net/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Prophecy
I have a further issue to raise about chronology. Abdul-Baha wrote: And the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months - that is to say, the Gentiles shall govern and control Jerusalem forty and two months, signifying twelve hundred and sixty days; and as each day signifies a year, by this reckoning it becomes twelve hundred and sixty years, which is the duration of the cycle of the Qur'an. For in the texts of the Holy Book, each day is a year; as it is said in the fourth chapter of Ezekiel, verse 6: Thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year. (`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 46) Okay, so 42 months is 1260 years, as each day is a year. What Abdul-Baha goes on to say is interesting: And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and a half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.(2) As it was before explained, in the terminology of the Holy Books three days and a half signify three years and a half, and three years and a half are forty and two months, and forty and two months twelve hundred and sixty days; and as each day by the text of the Holy Book signifies one year, the meaning is that for twelve hundred and sixty years, which is the cycle of the Qur'an, the nations, tribes and peoples would look at their bodies (`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 52) If I didnt know any better I would have said that Abdul-Baha was cheating in order to make 3.5 days into 1260 years. Perhaps Im missing something, as the logic here is difficult to follow. The difference between the computation here is that Abdul-Baha has done the process TWICE in order to make 1260 years once again. To make 1260 years from 42 months Abdul-Baha simply finds the days in that time and then makes them into years. To make 1260 years from 3.5 days Abdul-Baha makes it into years, then figures out the days in those 3.5 years, and then makes those days into years. Were we to do the same for the 42 months, we would do this: 42 months = 1260 days 1260 days = 1260 years each day signifies a year, therefore 42 months is found out by finding out how many days are in 1260 years, and then making that total into years. So 1260 x 360 = 453,600 years. I will represent Abdul-Bahas computation for the 3.5 days below so you can show me if there is any difference. 3.5 days = 3.5 years, since each day signifies a year In 3.5 years there are 1260 days each day signifies a year, so 1260 days = 1260 years It would seem Abdul-Baha should have stopped after saying As it was before explained, in the terminology of the Holy Books three days and a half signify three years and a half. If 1260 days makes 1260 years, why shouldnt 3.5 days make 3.5 years? From reading the passages together Abdul-Baha appears to be contradicting Himself. I dont see by what logic the time periods can be the same. And after three days and a half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them that saw them.(1) Three days and a half, as we before explained, is twelve hundred and sixty years. (`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 54) Then after three days and a half, which by the terminology of the Holy Books is twelve hundred and sixty years, these divine teachings, heavenly virtues, perfections and spiritual bounties were again renewed by the appearance of the Bab and the devotion of Jinab-i-Quddus. (`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 54) Here again Abdul-Baha says that 3.5 days is 1260 years, according to the terminology of the Holy Books. Regards, David _ Gaming galore at http://xtramsn.co.nz/gaming ! __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.net/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
RE: Prophecy
Dear friend, If we want to blame it should be directed at the prophecy and the narrative of Daniel not Abdul-Baha, the mystery of God. Abdul-Baha did His best to interpret in order to guide this troubled humanity to "the way, the truth and the light" for this age. It seems to me that the Creator has had a glorious plan (golden age) for His servants in this world (ref. religious history), but it seems such an impossible goggling act on His part when one considersour tortured evolution. The economic prosperity must continue and spread to the whole world and to every person on the Earth while at the same time excessive and decadent living must reverse to a moderate form andbe replaced bygood habits of every kind as the all knowing Lord of the age has prescribed. On the unity of religions, I believeAbdul-Baha talks about the unity of foundationof religions, as you know. Warm regards Hooshang ninemsn Premium transforms your e-mail with colours, photos and animated text. Upgrade now! __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.net/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
RE: Prophecy
Hi, Hooshang, At 11:45 AM 1/8/2004 +1100, you wrote: If we want to blame it should be directed at the prophecy and the narrative of Daniel not Abdul-Baha, the mystery of God. The point of that message was not to blame anyone but to offer an understanding of the dual function of prophecy. When a prophecy is revealed, it can warn people of what may or will occur and, therefore, provide them with some sense of direction. After a prophecy has been fulfilled, its authoritative interpretation can, if one accepts the assumptions of the interpreter, function as an apologetic devise. On the unity of religions, I believe Abdul-Baha talks about the unity of foundation of religions, as you know. I agree. There is a oneness of truth, irrespective of the immediate source, not a unity of contemporary religions. Mark A. Foster * http://MarkFoster.net http://CompuServe.m.foster.name __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.net/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Prophecy
I'd be interested in your thoughts on these comments about prophecy from a Baha'i academic. He made an interesting point about the calcuation of the years which I hadn't noticed, and can't say I would be able to respond to. Here were his comments: I tend to take prophecy stuff with a grain of salt. If the Baha'i Writings say X is fulfilled, fine. But if you want to refute them, sometimes they're pretty easy. Consider how one comes up with 1844 being 1260; you have to assume 1260 refers to months of 30 days and years of 360 days in order to convert 42 months and three and a half times into 1260, and then once you get 1260 years you have to assume it refers to a years of 354 days instead of 360 or 365.24 days. If 'Abdu'l-Baha hadn't said that's the way it is, I would have said it's absurd. _ Surf the net and talk on the phone with Xtra Jetstream @ http://www.xtra.co.nz/products/0,,5803,00.html ! __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.net/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Prophecy
David, At 10:00 AM 1/5/2004 +, you quoted: I tend to take prophecy stuff with a grain of salt. If the Baha'i Writings say X is fulfilled, fine. But if you want to refute them, sometimes they're pretty easy. I agree with this person's assessment of prophecy. As I see it, prophecy (navuuwa.t), literally warning, can be either typological or refer to single events. It can be either conditional (impending) or decreed (ordained). The immediate function of prophecy is to orient people to a certain type of thinking. For instance, how could I work toward world peace if I did not know it was prophesied? However, the prophecy is generally only understood, in any significant sense, after it has been fulfilled and then (authoritatively) interpreted. Rationally, however, interpretations of prophecy, including those given by `Abdu'l-Baha in _Some Answered Questions_, can easily be refuted. I have never had much of a problem doing it myself! However, I accept His interpretations, not because I am persuaded by them, but because I recognize His authority to make them. Aside from that, I try to avoid prophecy as a proof of the Baha'i Revelation. Mark A. Foster * http://MarkFoster.net http://CompuServe.m.foster.name __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.net/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
