-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jon Louis Mann
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 2:39 PM
To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion
Subject: Genesis
What's wicked about bringing children into the
world that you have
Dan M wrote:
There is no evidence that, if the United States decided
to fade away as continental Europe is doing, instead of
having a ZPG birth rate, (...)
Brazil is fading away too. Last count is 1.8 births/female.
Alberto Monteiro
___
On 30 Jul 2008, at 15:46, Alberto Monteiro wrote:
Dan M wrote:
There is no evidence that, if the United States decided
to fade away as continental Europe is doing, instead of
having a ZPG birth rate, (...)
Brazil is fading away too. Last count is 1.8 births/female.
Below the UK and
Dan M wrote:
There is no evidence that, if the United States
decided
to fade away as continental Europe is doing,
instead of
having a ZPG birth rate, (...)
Brazil is fading away too. Last count is 1.8
births/female.
Below the UK and France but well above Thailand (1.5) and
South
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of William T Goodall
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 10:30 AM
To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion
Subject: Re: Genesis
On 30 Jul 2008, at 15:46, Alberto Monteiro wrote:
Dan M wrote
From: Dan M
What's wicked about bringing children
into the world that you have the
resources to support and nurture?
Doug
it's wicked because it creates even more
scarcity among other children
in undeveloped countries whose parents do not have the
resources to
support and
On 30 Jul 2008, at 19:31, Dan M wrote:
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:brin-l-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of William T Goodall
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 10:30 AM
To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion
Subject: Re: Genesis
On 30 Jul 2008, at 15
Dan M wrote:
There is no evidence that, if the United
States decided
to fade away as continental Europe is doing,
instead of
having a ZPG birth rate, (...)
we're looking at a
Europe that will be shrinking, roughly, 30% per generation.
We see birth
rates exceeding death rates in
William T Goodall quoted:
The provisional Total Fertility Rate (TFR) for 2007 gives an
average of 1.91 children per woman in England and Wales. This is an
increase from 1.86 in 2006 and is the sixth consecutive annual
increase from a low point in 2001 where the TFR was 1.63. The last
On 30 Jul 2008, at 20:41, Alberto Monteiro wrote:
William T Goodall quoted:
The provisional Total Fertility Rate (TFR) for 2007 gives an
average of 1.91 children per woman in England and Wales. This is an
increase from 1.86 in 2006 and is the sixth consecutive annual
increase from a low
On 31/07/2008, at 4:31 AM, Dan M wrote:
Given the fact that Europe is showing resistance to the idea of
significant
additional immigration of non-Europeans, and that Japan has long
held racial
purity as important, I wonder who will take care of all the baby
boomers as
they enter
People will have to work longer. As life expectancies continue to
increase, retirement age will have to increase too.
I understand that, and that's reasonable. The retirement age for Social
Security in the US has been moved up from 65 to 67 for folks my age and will
be 68 for folks a few
i was not the one who initiated the scarcity of commodities argument,
although it is obviously that 3,000 years ago lo tech societies did not
consume and pollute anywhere near the levels of almost seven billion
(approaching 6,832,000,000) do today. prior to the agricultural
revolution
of a
staff advocate - who was later transferred to a position where she could do
less harm or good.
http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: brin-l@mccmedia.com
Subject: RE: Genesis
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:16:03 -0500
People will have to work longer. As life
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Pat Mathews
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 7:21 PM
To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion
Subject: RE: Genesis
BTW - when you talk about people working longer, don't assume we are all
Kevin B. O'Brien wrote:
Rising energy costs will probably cause a few problems, but
I don't see how Bush or Cheney for all their failings can
be blamed for that particular problem.
I'm thinking that causing massive instability in the major oil
producing region might have something to do
Doug Pensinger wrote:
Kevin wrote:
Wayne Eddy wrote:
Rising energy costs will probably cause a few problems, but I don't see
how
Bush or Cheney for all their failings can be blamed for that particular
problem.
I'm thinking that causing massive instability
Alberto Monteiro wrote:
Kevin B. O'Brien wrote:
Rising energy costs will probably cause a few problems, but
I don't see how Bush or Cheney for all their failings can
be blamed for that particular problem.
I'm thinking that causing massive instability in the major oil
producing
- Original Message -
From: Kevin B. O'Brien [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: Genesis
Wayne Eddy wrote:
Rising energy costs will probably cause a few problems, but I don't see
how
Bush
Wayne Eddy wrote:
Rising energy costs will probably cause a few problems, but I don't see how
Bush or Cheney for all their failings can be blamed for that particular
problem.
I'm thinking that causing massive instability in the major oil producing
region might have something to do with it.
Kevin wrote:
Wayne Eddy wrote:
Rising energy costs will probably cause a few problems, but I don't see
how
Bush or Cheney for all their failings can be blamed for that particular
problem.
I'm thinking that causing massive instability in the major oil producing
region might have
Julia wrote:
Would you consider some excuses to be reasonable?
Of course. The one I think is lame, though, is that they
are somehow saving
the planet by deciding not to have children.
And, if responsible, enlightened people are having
children, at what point
do they get to decide how
I just don't see it happening according to their
script. Of those 8 or 10,
how many are going to follow their parent's ideology
lock step? How many
will rebel and provide a backlash? How isolated can they
remain in a
society changing as rapidly as ours?
Mormons have practiced
What's wicked about bringing children into the
world that you have the
resources to support and nurture?
Doug
it's wicked because it creates even more scaricities among other children in
undeveloped countries whose parents do not have the resources to support and
nurture. would you
Jon wrote:
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply,
and replenish the earth, and subdue it. surely you don't believe that gawd
created man to have dominion over every living thing that moves on the
earth?
it is not a sacrifice, doug, it is a duty to the
On Jul 26, 2008, at 2:38 PM, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
What's wicked about bringing children into the
world that you have the
resources to support and nurture?
Doug
it's wicked because it creates even more scaricities among other
children in undeveloped countries whose parents do not have
Jon wrote:
are you suggesting that it is rational to have more enlightened children
Yes.
to balance those who are raised by cults and jihadists, etc.?
I don't know about balancing anything, but I do believe that the more
enlightened people, the better off we'll all be.
the mormons
Jon wrote:
it's wicked because it creates even more scaricities among other children
in undeveloped countries whose parents do not have the resources to support
and nurture.
Bulls__t. The problems in underdeveloped nations will be ameliorated when
their people become more educated. We
Jon wrote:
are you suggesting that it is rational to have more
enlightened children
Yes.
to balance those who are raised by cults and
jihadists, etc.?
I don't know about balancing anything, but I do believe
that the more
enlightened people are, the better off we'll
all be.
cheap
It's not just a numbers game. If you have the
opportunity to bring a child
into the world that has a reasonable chance to make a
positive contribution,
there are few arguments not to do so. The world
doesn't just need fewer
people; it needs more people that can make a positive
On Jul 26, 2008, at 2:58 PM, Doug Pensinger wrote:
It's not just a numbers game. If you have the opportunity to bring
a child
into the world that has a reasonable chance to make a positive
contribution,
there are few arguments not to do so. The world doesn't just need
fewer
people;
Jon wrote:
it's wicked because it creates even more
scaricities among other children
in undeveloped countries whose parents do not have the
resources to support
and nurture.
Bulls__t. The problems in underdeveloped nations will be
ameliorated when
their people become more educated.
On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 5:03 PM, Bruce Bostwick
[EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:
On Jul 26, 2008, at 2:58 PM, Doug Pensinger wrote:
It's not just a numbers game. If you have the opportunity to bring
a child
into the world that has a reasonable chance to make a positive
contribution,
there are
Doug Pensinger wrote:
It's not just a numbers game. If you have the opportunity to bring
a child
into the world that has a reasonable chance to make a positive
contribution,
there are few arguments not to do so. The world doesn't just need
fewer
people; it needs more people that
- Original Message -
From: Jon Louis Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 5:38 AM
Subject: Genesis
What's wicked about bringing children into the
world that you have the
resources to support and nurture
Jon wrote:
it is a numbers game, doug, and as long as it continues the planet will
suffer. it is not realistic to suggest that enlightened people will save the
planet by breeding. people who are able to enjoy the fruits of their wealth
are not about to invest in breeding units of labor
- Original Message -
From: Bruce Bostwick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The only exceptions I would make would be for people willing to help
terraform and colonize other habitable bodies in the solar system.
I'm pretty sure Mars' surface could be terraformed to the point where
people could
From: Jon Louis Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
unfortunately, throughout history, it is the the best and the brightest
who have perpetrated evils on the poor and downtrodden. there have been
exceptions, but over and over again governments and religions have used
their ideology or dogma to justify
Bruce wrote:
That's another matter entirely than restricting childbirth. That's a
value distinction as to who is more or less entitled to reproduce.
And on that, I will agree with you, that some parents are probably
better candidates to reproduce the species than others. But, as a
member
Jon wrote:
the problem, doug, is that many undeveloped nations rich in resources are
governed by despots who need to maintain an ignorant population in poverty
so they can continue to use the wealth for their own purposes. when
advanced societies enable this so they can continue their
At 02:35 PM Saturday 7/26/2008, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
I just don't see it happening according to their
script. Of those 8 or 10,
how many are going to follow their parent's ideology
lock step? How many
will rebel and provide a backlash? How isolated can they
remain in a
society
At 03:09 PM Saturday 7/26/2008, Bruce Bostwick wrote:
If our species were made up entirely of individuals who approached
decisions, especially important ones like whether it's wise to
reproduce, with as much thought toward collective benefit as
individual gratification,
Perhaps that would be
At 03:55 PM Saturday 7/26/2008, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
there has always been a gap between the haves and have nots with
those at the bottom providing the labor and resources for those at
the top. if they were really so enlightened they would prohibit the very greed
As the hot dog vendor said
At 05:44 PM Saturday 7/26/2008, Doug Pensinger wrote:
To be honest, I think the only real solution is a world government that has
the power and the resources to correct severe problems.
If one nation tries to do it alone, their motivations might be questioned
and for good reason (see Iraq).
I
are you suggesting it is rational to have more
enlightened
children to balance those who are raised by cults and
jihadists,
etc.? the mormons and various religious cults may not
have taken
over the world, but they are still growing and doing a
hell of a lot of damage
Specify damage.
At 07:12 PM Saturday 7/26/2008, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
are you suggesting it is rational to have more
enlightened
children to balance those who are raised by cults and
jihadists,
etc.? the mormons and various religious cults may not
have taken
over the world, but they are still
I would love to see a summary of the good evil deeds
that the best
brightest have been responsible for over the years
and contrast that with
the deads of the worst dimmest, but it
hasn't been done and I suspect it
is impossible to do.
What justification do you have for your
So if its a numbers game, how do you win by not
having children?
actually you lose by having too many children and overpopulating the planet...
the argument you should be forwarding is that affluent
societies stop
consuming so much and put more revenues into an
enlightened' educational
On Jul 26, 2008, at 6:38 PM, Ronn! Blankenship wrote:
At 03:09 PM Saturday 7/26/2008, Bruce Bostwick wrote:
If our species were made up entirely of individuals who approached
decisions, especially important ones like whether it's wise to
reproduce, with as much thought toward collective
I agree with Doug.
If people only raised the number of children they were able
to support
nuture AND everyone one was in a position to know that
number AND if
everyone was able to ensure they didn't have more than
that number, we would
end up with the appropriate world population, and
I might. There, I said it.
If our species were made up entirely of individuals who
approached
decisions, especially important ones like whether it's
wise to
reproduce, with as much thought toward collective benefit
as
individual gratification, I wouldn't suggest that. But
this
Jon Louis Mann wrote:
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply,
and replenish the earth, and subdue it. surely you don't believe that
gawd created man to have dominion over every living thing that moves on the
earth?
OTOH, if this command should be taken
At 08:01 PM Saturday 7/26/2008, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
So if its a numbers game, how do you win by not
having children?
actually you lose by having too many children and overpopulating the planet...
the argument you should be forwarding is that affluent
societies stop
consuming so
- Original Message -
From: Jon Louis Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 11:40 AM
Subject: Genesis
it may well come to that, bruce, or the problem may be solved by the
collapse of civilization. either
At 11:52 PM Saturday 7/26/2008, Wayne Eddy wrote:
- Original Message -
From: Jon Louis Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 11:40 AM
Subject: Genesis
it may well come to that, bruce, or the problem may
Folks,
The New Yorker: Shouts Murmurs, Intelligent Design by Paul Rudnick
http://www.newyorker.com/printables/shouts/050926sh_shouts
Dave
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
-saucer-shaped ship had cracked in two,
however.
100 mph impact
Genesis and its solar cargo slammed into the ground at about 100 mph, said
Chris Jones, a spokesperson for NASA. The space agency did not immediately
provide any detail on the expected condition of the probe's contents
At 19:20 24-12-2002 -0500, William Taylor wrote:
Has there been a long past Brin-L discussion on the origination and
development of the idea behind Glory Season?
I don't remember us having *that* discussion, but we did once upon a time
start a chapter-by-chapter analysis of first _The
The first time I read a book through, I seem to do it for the story.
The second time I read a book, I pay more attention to the words.
I missed or didn't give notice to the Tolkien references the first time
through the Jijo novels.
[Note: There are 51 copies of The Lord of the Rings for sale
Now I'm rereading Glory Season.
I think I'll do the same, once I've finished my current Marcus Didius Falco
mystery.
My recollection of the book makes me suspect that the science fiction
part of the story (as opposed to structural and literary sources you talk
about) was rooted in an attempted
In a message dated 12/24/2002 5:34:56 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
DEMONIC MALES: APES AND THE ORIGINS OF HUMAN VIOLENCE by Richard
Wrangham Dale Peterson.
...which is also the topic of a song in Princess Ida, one that existed
well before the play as a Bab
In a message dated 12/24/2002 7:07:06 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
At 08:10 PM 12/24/02 -0500, William Taylor wrote:
Well behaved but not shaved.
I plan to shave before the family arrives tomorrow.
Whether I will qualify as well behaved remains to be seen
favorites. snippage
Julia replied:
You remember all the titles correctly. :) I'm
fond of that album as well.
I like Genesis, but I think that album is the
weakest of the Genesis albums
made by Collins, Banks and Rutherford. I like
Dreaming While You Sleep
and Driving the Last Spike
Anyone else notice the irony in the subject line? :)
Julia
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