Re: Hoon Leases and Colonies (Was Notes on Uplift)
Ronn! wrote: HOON UNDER FIRE FROM UK WAR WIDOW The UK's defense secretary has expressed regret for the death in Iraq of a British soldier ordered to hand back his body armor because of an equipment shortage. http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/01/16/uk.hoon/index.html I always pictured Hoon as much more attractive than the picture at the bottom of this article... Reggie Bautista Ad Hominem Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hoon Leases and Colonies (Was Notes on Uplift)
David Hobby wrote: (And just finished _Darwin's Radio_, which mentions RU-pentium. Groan.) Other than that pun, did you like the book? Reggie Bautista ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hoon Leases and Colonies (Was Notes on Uplift)
In a message dated 1/15/2004 11:55:13 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Everything I'm trying to do by way of numbers, is to make Alvin filthy rich whether or not he really wants to be so. William Taylor Why? You want the short answer or the summary of the full novel? It is repeatedly mentioned in Heaven's Reach that Gillian will publish Alvin's journal even if she doesn't hear back from him. The book cannot be nothing other than a success. The one single lodge was always full after one year of being on Hurumphta. Without any sort of off world publicity. After the book has been published, I envisioned that Alvin would eventually need seven lodges at that bay, and own the next five bays up and down the coast. Other than just making him successful, I wanted him to be rich enough to offer to pay for, by himself, the Uplift ceremony equipment that was left on Garth, and bring it to Hurumphta to hold a totally unnecessary Uplift Ceremony for the Rousit, who were being in danger of becoming short furry versions of dour boring humorless hoon clones. The Civilization of the Four Galaxies can use a diversion. The war against the Tandu isn't going very well, though of course it did instantly stop the siege of Earth We know that it'll be Huck that is the one that does the most to change hoon thinking. It is written: Huck'll bury hoon dogma. Alvin just provides the capital to do so. (And that's the _short_ version.) William Taylor ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hoon Leases and Colonies (Was Notes on Uplift)
On Friday 2004-01-16 00:56, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/15/2004 11:55:13 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Everything I'm trying to do by way of numbers, is to make Alvin filthy rich whether or not he really wants to be so. William Taylor Why? You want the short answer or the summary of the full novel? It is repeatedly mentioned in Heaven's Reach that Gillian will publish Alvin's journal even if she doesn't hear back from him. The book cannot be nothing other than a success. Thereby pissing off all the septs of Jijo. In terms of GIM legal action the point is moot, but the Hoon will NOT be amused when Alvin besmirches their reputation for excellent galactic citizenship. On the otherhand, if the book were published Alvin might enjoy J. K. Rowling like income. This would make revenue from his yachting business trival, so you wouldn't need your 42 major Hoon colonies. The one single lodge was always full after one year of being on Hurumphta. Without any sort of off world publicity. After the book has been published, I envisioned that Alvin would eventually need seven lodges at that bay, and own the next five bays up and down the coast. Other than just making him successful, I wanted him to be rich enough to offer to pay for, by himself, the Uplift ceremony equipment that was left on Garth, and bring it to Hurumphta to hold a totally unnecessary Uplift Ceremony for the Rousit, who were being in danger of becoming short furry versions of dour boring humorless hoon clones. If he has JK Rowling's wealth why purchase the stuff on Garth. I thought the Humans were planning to keep the Uplift stuff on Garth. They will be needing it alot in the next few millenia. Besides, wouldn't the Guthasa and Hoon already have their own Uplift paraphernalia? Also, it would make more sense to have a cloak-n-dagger novel wherein Alvin and friends pervert a planned Rousit uplift ceremony to make them pick, say, the Tymbrimi as patrons. The Civilization of the Four Galaxies can use a diversion. The war against the Tandu isn't going very well, though of course it did instantly stop the siege of Earth We know that it'll be Huck that is the one that does the most to change hoon thinking. It is written: Huck'll bury hoon dogma. It is? Is DB having you read his drafts? Alvin just provides the capital to do so. (And that's the _short_ version.) William Taylor ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hoon Leases and Colonies (Was Notes on Uplift)
From CNN Quick News this morning (Fri 16 Jan): HOON UNDER FIRE FROM UK WAR WIDOW The UK's defense secretary has expressed regret for the death in Iraq of a British soldier ordered to hand back his body armor because of an equipment shortage. http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/01/16/uk.hoon/index.html -- Ronn! :) The contents of this message © 2004 by the author. All rights reserved. Any reproduction, redistribution, duplication, forwarding, dissemination, publication, broadcast, transmission or other use of the contents of this message, with or without attribution, with or without this copyright statement, in any form by any means whatsoever is strictly and expressly prohibited. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hoon Leases and Colonies (Was Notes on Uplift)
In a message dated 1/16/2004 3:04:47 AM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The book cannot be nothing other than a success. Thereby pissing off all the septs of Jijo. In terms of GIM legal action the point is moot, but the Hoon will NOT be amused when Alvin besmirches their reputation for excellent galactic citizenship. Gillian's report would be enough to do that. First: A year after Streaker gets back to Earth, the book hasn't been published. That fact can't be changed. So I worked with it. It took almost a full year or argument, mostly in secret, to get a judgement from the Galactic Institutes that no action whatsoever will be taken against any race involved with anything that took place on Jijo. The point is mute. No one can go back to Jijo to clean up anything. Only then can the book be printed. And Alvin doesn't care much for standard hoon behavior patterns. But he's much more respectful of them than either Huck or Mudfoot. The former teaching classes and the latter hacking into the Hurumphta press network. On the otherhand, if the book were published Alvin might enjoy J. K. Rowling like income. This would make revenue from his yachting business trival, so you wouldn't need your 42 major Hoon colonies. Ten's good enough. 42 was a don't panic reaction. And the first lodge to be built using his book's royalties will have all qheuen carving. Civilized qheuen never ever though of earning income and status by becoming artists. If he has JK Rowling's wealth why purchase the stuff on Garth. I thought the Humans were planning to keep the Uplift stuff on Garth. They will be needing it alot in the next few millenia. Besides, wouldn't the Guthasa and Hoon already have their own Uplift paraphernalia? Balance of trade. This way Alvin doesn't take away any cash from Earthclan. With compound interest factors, holding onto it for a few millenia would be a big net loss. Also, it would make more sense to have a cloak-n-dagger novel wherein Alvin and friends pervert a planned Rousit uplift ceremony to make them pick, say, the Tymbrimi as patrons. The exact opposite in every way. The Rousit haven't even been given speech yet. They do not technically qualify for their first Uplift Cerimony. They do not have the right to change patrons. But cohorts are an entirely different matter. Mudfoot is the cloak and dagger. The Tymbrimi are currently banned from making contact with the Rousit on Hurumphta, who are all rejects to uplift as their sense of humor is stronger than the rousit of the more civilized hoon planets. ---which is being BRED OUT. (Hurumphta, at only 1000 years old is the youngest hoon colony planet.) The point of Alvin paying for what the hoon's in power don't want is that by law, an Uplift Ceremony is the only time and place when all races must be allowed to observe. ...and the Tymbrimi can become the Rousit's new cohort. (Along with the Forski--but that's another long story.) We know that it'll be Huck that is the one that does the most to change hoon thinking. It is written: Huck'll bury hoon dogma. It is? It's too good of a pun to ignore. If our good Dr. Brin didn't plan it from the start, then it beats the record of no one at first recognizing that RU-486 was a bad pun. (Are you for 86ing the fetus?) Is DB having you read his drafts? Not yet. :-) I did get to read his new Martians are all Libertarians story. Some guesses have proven to be wrong. And Dr. Brin says that he's got a better way to have Gillian finally get to Tom than my idea of having them meet at the Uplift Ceremony. But he did offer to 'give' me a different crew member. I thought that was interesting. :-) to infinity. But all you have to do is read the novels to logically guess where Tom was hiding out for over a year,and that a Tandu War is in the future, and that it'd be the most logical way to end a siege of Earth. You can even figure out how the Tandu are defeated. ...but not from going to the Library. William Taylor Dr. Brin even asked me if he had ever emailed me any details...Nope. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hoon Leases and Colonies (Was Notes on Uplift)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... It's too good of a pun to ignore. If our good Dr. Brin didn't plan it from the start, then it beats the record of no one at first recognizing that RU-486 was a bad pun. (Are you for 86ing the fetus?) ... Maybe. I was always more impressed with the coincidence with the number of the processor chip. (And just finished _Darwin's Radio_, which mentions RU-pentium. Groan.) ---David ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hoon Leases and Colonies (Was Notes on Uplift)
On Friday 2004-01-16 09:23, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/16/2004 3:04:47 AM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The book cannot be nothing other than a success. Thereby pissing off all the septs of Jijo. In terms of GIM legal action the point is moot, but the Hoon will NOT be amused when Alvin besmirches their reputation for excellent galactic citizenship. Gillian's report would be enough to do that. First: A year after Streaker gets back to Earth, the book hasn't been published. That fact can't be changed. So I worked with it. It took almost a full year or argument, mostly in secret, to get a judgement from the Galactic Institutes that no action whatsoever will be taken against any race involved with anything that took place on Jijo. The point is mute. No one can go back to Jijo to clean up anything. Only then can the book be printed. And Alvin doesn't care much for standard hoon behavior patterns. But he's much more respectful of them than either Huck or Mudfoot. The former teaching classes and the latter hacking into the Hurumphta press network. Unfortunately, the legal aspect is only half the problem with Alvin's book. The bigger and more intractable problem would be PR. -- Jophur and the like would have strongly *suspected* Humans of founding sooner colonies. Given Human Clans psycho-historical prospects Humans would be idiots not to get themselves some colonies. Alvin gives the Jophur proof. -- Tytlal and Tymbrimi have the same motives as Humans. Now the Galactics need to check every Noor population to make certain it isn't providing cover for a Tytlal crypto-colony. -- Traeki aren't Jophur so they won't be labled a race of sooner scofflaws. But if there is one Traeki colony there might be more. Jophur are not the sort who forgive those who bear bad news. They will hold Hoon collectively responsible because they let Alvin publish his book. -- Glavers, who one surmises are not extinct or retired, will not be amused about having their plot discovered, even if they are doubly protected from GIM prosecution. -- G'kek are extinct, or so everyone thought. So do they have other sooner colonies? If Alvin, that G'kek lover, came back from Jijo did the playboy bring any of those so-and-so Glavers with him? What will do Obeyors do about that? -- Queuens will be embarased when a Hoon reveals their species commited an act of fallow infestation. -- Urs will be embarased when a Hoon reveals their species commited an act of fallow infestation. Worse, Urs would already have been suspected as a species very prone to soonerism because they are so driven to reproduction. -- Hoon will be in tripple jeoprody if Alvin publishes. First they will be embarassed by clear evidence that Hoon committed an act of fallow infestation. Second, the Hoon reputation for being impeccable, responsible Galactic Citizens of the higest probity will be seriously damaged. Accountants do NOT like having their reputation for integrity impeached. Think Arthur Anderson Third, the Galactics practice collective responsibility. None of the embarased races will be happy that a Hoon besimirched their individual reputations. They will be mad at the Hoon, not just Alvin. Moreover, the Obeyor--and especially the Jophur--will insist in no uncertain terms that the Hoon unequivocally demonstrate that they are harboring no G'Kek survivors. Alvin might make as much $ as Rowling but he will get to live like Rushdie--assuming the Hoon don't execute him themselves. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hoon Leases and Colonies (Was Notes on Uplift)
In a message dated 1/16/2004 5:17:04 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Unfortunately, the legal aspect is only half the problem with Alvin's book. The bigger and more intractable problem would be PR. -- Jophur and the like would have strongly *suspected* Humans of founding sooner colonies. Given Human Clans psycho-historical prospects Humans would be idiots not to get themselves some colonies. Alvin gives the Jophur proof. Mute point. The Rothen sold them the proof over a year ago. -- Tytlal and Tymbrimi have the same motives as Humans. Now the Galactics need to check every Noor population to make certain it isn't providing cover for a Tytlal crypto-colony. Noor exist elsewhere than Jijo? -- Traeki aren't Jophur so they won't be labled a race of sooner scofflaws. But if there is one Traeki colony there might be more. Jophur are not the sort who forgive those who bear bad news. They will hold Hoon collectively responsible because they let Alvin publish his book. There's been a g'Kek living openly on Hurumphta for a year. How could it get worse? -- Glavers, who one surmises are not extinct or retired, will not be amused about having their plot discovered, even if they are doubly protected from GIM prosecution. Glavers exist outside of Jijo and Galaxy Four? -- G'kek are extinct, or so everyone thought. So do they have other sooner colonies? If Alvin, that G'kek lover, came back from Jijo did the playboy bring any of those so-and-so Glavers with him? I don't think so. If any were left over from the Hydro incedent, they stayed on Streaker. They certainly weren't on Kazkark. What will do Obeyors do about that? Wonder why the Library lied to them? -- Queuens will be embarased when a Hoon reveals their species commited an act of fallow infestation. But take Alvin's money for their artwork/architecture. -- Urs will be embarased when a Hoon reveals their species commited an act of fallow infestation. Worse, Urs would already have been suspected as a species very prone to soonerism because they are so driven to reproduction. Yup. Everyone is at fault. But remember, both the Rothen and the Jophur communicated all of this back to the other four galaxies. Nothing in Alvin's journal is going to give the Civilization of the Four Galaxies any new information. -- Hoon will be in tripple jeoprody if Alvin publishes. First they will be embarassed by clear evidence that Hoon committed an act of fallow infestation. Which the Rothen and Jophur already know. Second, the Hoon reputation for being impeccable, responsible Galactic Citizens of the higest probity will be seriously damaged. And Mudfoot is on a constant campaign to do even more damage. Alvin just wants to go on sailing. Accountants do NOT like having their reputation for integrity impeached. But they do like the idea that no GI is going to set any punishments. Think Arthur Anderson Think Arthur Treacher. The fish are already in the fryer. No need to stick your hand/claw/tenticle/prehensile penis into the vat to try and pull out the pieces. Third, the Galactics practice collective responsibility. None of the embarased races will be happy that a Hoon besimirched their individual reputations. A book, written by a hoon, only adds corroborative detail to what's been bandying about in not so secret secret for a year. The only solution that the Institutes couldd come up with--to prevent open and extensive warfare--was to give up and say nobody can be held accountable for anything. They will be mad at the Hoon, not just Alvin. Moreover, the Obeyor--and especially the Jophur--will insist in no uncertain terms that the Hoon unequivocally demonstrate that they are harboring no G'Kek survivors. Too late. By our good Dr.'s own words, Huck has said, Bring them on. Alvin might make as much $ as Rowling but he will get to live like Rushdie--assuming the Hoon don't execute him themselves. Which hoon. The old guard, or the ever increasing base of those who have gone sailing? Huck's the politico; Alvin just wants to go sailing. Damn but all of these are good questions. And I'm not the only one who should be trying to answer them. Dr. Brin is the one who repeatedly said, in print, that the book was going to be published. I'm not going to try to contradict that statement. It has to be worked with. And silly and strange though some of the workings are, it does work. ...at least on the surface. ;-) William Taylor --- Copy sent to He who sits on high. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hoon Leases and Colonies (Was Notes on Uplift)
On Friday 2004-01-16 18:36, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/16/2004 5:17:04 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Unfortunately, the legal aspect is only half the problem with Alvin's book. The bigger and more intractable problem would be PR. -- Jophur and the like would have strongly *suspected* Humans of founding sooner colonies. Given Human Clans psycho-historical prospects Humans would be idiots not to get themselves some colonies. Alvin gives the Jophur proof. Mute point. The Rothen sold them the proof over a year ago. They did? The problem with intelligence sold by the Rothen is that its not usually exactly the sort of thing you can go public with. -- Tytlal and Tymbrimi have the same motives as Humans. Now the Galactics need to check every Noor population to make certain it isn't providing cover for a Tytlal crypto-colony. Noor exist elsewhere than Jijo? I have a distinct recollection that somewhere in the Jijo trilogy we are told that Noor are a common pest throughout known space. Many had looked at uplifting them before the Tymbrimi but decided that Noor were just intractable genetic material. -- Traeki aren't Jophur so they won't be labled a race of sooner scofflaws. But if there is one Traeki colony there might be more. Jophur are not the sort who forgive those who bear bad news. They will hold Hoon collectively responsible because they let Alvin publish his book. There's been a g'Kek living openly on Hurumphta for a year. How could it get worse? I had assumed that she was hardly living openly. Huck would be a s-e-c-r-e-t. -- Glavers, who one surmises are not extinct or retired, will not be amused about having their plot discovered, even if they are doubly protected from GIM prosecution. Glavers exist outside of Jijo and Galaxy Four? It depends. My impression from the Jijo trilogy was that the Glaver colony on Jijo had to devolve to pay off a pending Glaver debt. Meanwhile, Glavers remained Galactic citizens approaching Elder status. The Agents Handbook (which I try to avoid using as a source) says that Glavers suddenly went missing from Galactic society about 1000 years ago, though that's not too unusual. -- G'kek are extinct, or so everyone thought. So do they have other sooner colonies? If Alvin, that G'kek lover, came back from Jijo did the playboy bring any of those so-and-so Glavers with him? I don't think so. If any were left over from the Hydro incedent, they stayed on Streaker. They certainly weren't on Kazkark. Sorry, make that: If Alvin, that G'kek lover, came back from Jijo did the playboy bring any of those so-and-so g'Kek with him? What will do Obeyors do about that? Wonder why the Library lied to them? -- Queuens will be embarased when a Hoon reveals their species commited an act of fallow infestation. But take Alvin's money for their artwork/architecture. Darn tootin'. Business is business. -- Urs will be embarased when a Hoon reveals their species commited an act of fallow infestation. Worse, Urs would already have been suspected as a species very prone to soonerism because they are so driven to reproduction. Yup. Everyone is at fault. But remember, both the Rothen and the Jophur communicated all of this back to the other four galaxies. Nothing in Alvin's journal is going to give the Civilization of the Four Galaxies any new information. I doubt the Rothen blabed this back to Civilization. The last thing they want is someone discovering their gene-raiding activities. That might even lead to Institute detectives taking this Rothen problem seriously. Criminal races DO NOT want publicity. Any info they provide would also be suspect. You might be onto something with the Jophur. I can't remember if any made it back to Civilization with info about Jijo. I think Brin arranged it so they didn't. -- Hoon will be in tripple jeoprody if Alvin publishes. First they will be embarassed by clear evidence that Hoon committed an act of fallow infestation. Which the Rothen and Jophur already know. Rothen reports can be denied. I am not convinced the Jophur do know. Second, the Hoon reputation for being impeccable, responsible Galactic Citizens of the higest probity will be seriously damaged. And Mudfoot is on a constant campaign to do even more damage. Alvin just wants to go on sailing. So? Accountants do NOT like having their reputation for integrity impeached. But they do like the idea that no GI is going to set any punishments. Think Arthur Anderson Think Arthur Treacher. The fish are already in the fryer. No need to stick your hand/claw/tenticle/prehensile penis into the vat to try and pull out the pieces. Third, the Galactics practice collective responsibility. None of the embarased races will be happy that a Hoon
Re: Hoon Leases and Colonies (Was Notes on Uplift)
In a message dated 1/16/2004 7:17:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You might be onto something with the Jophur. I can't remember if any made it back to Civilization with info about Jijo. I think Brin arranged it so they didn't. Harry's ship arrived back on Jijo ahead of the remains of a full Jophur invasion. An invasion force, I had thought, that was called up from the first Jophur to arrive at Jijo. * * * * I know it is within Alvin's character to spend his entire fortune on the Rousit Uplift Ceremony if it would save them from becoming old style hoon clones. I know that given Dr. Brin's tendency to insert a bit of Gilbert Sullivan where possible, Alvin will first produce an all hoon rendition of H.M.S. Pinafore, and then the Mikado as the second play. Mudfoot changes the little list song to include hoon government officials and all hell breaks loose. If a hoon can be written up as wearing full japanese dress, then there has to be a way to get Alvin's book published. Trent, do you at least agree with the idea that books actually published as books have an environmental surtax, and also a higer royalty to the author than a book only published electronically. (It's a fad to read about Jijo by acting as if you were actually on Jijo.) William Taylor --- And hey, Uplift is Space Opera, not hard SF--unless it wants to be hard SF. Everything works backwards from this point. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hoon Leases and Colonies (Was Notes on Uplift)
Trent, do you at least agree with the idea that books actually published as books have an environmental surtax, and also a higer royalty to the author than a book only published electronically. In our world or in Uplift? (Galactics *ONLY* publish books electronically.) (It's a fad to read about Jijo by acting as if you were actually on Jijo.) It is? Where? When? Who? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hoon Leases and Colonies (Was Notes on Uplift)
In a message dated 1/16/2004 8:27:48 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Trent, do you at least agree with the idea that books actually published as books have an environmental surtax, and also a higer royalty to the author than a book only published electronically. In our world or in Uplift? (Galactics *ONLY* publish books electronically.) (If a hoon had a middle finger longer than the other two, Alvin might actually want to give an opinion about following Galactic only-isms.) (It's a fad to read about Jijo by acting as if you were actually on Jijo.) It is? Where? When? Who? Uplift Earth As soon as it's published Anyone who's followed what happened to the Streaker. Anyone who likes reading about aliens behaving more like humans than aliens. Anyone who's interested in embarasing the current hoon government. Left out why. As a plot device to throw Alvin more money. ...and to get people thinking about the future of electronic publishing. There's the old hack story about hiring the homeles to check out library books they never read just to get the author more in royalties. This is fun. William Taylor - It is foolish to talk about the difference between apples and oranges if you're both in the blender at the same time. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Hoon Leases and Colonies (Was Notes on Uplift)
Everything I'm trying to do by way of numbers, is to make Alvin filthy rich whether or not he really wants to be so. William Taylor Why? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Habitable Planets: was Notes on Uplift
Trent Shipley wrote: Ok. But it's better to go back and set the Drake factors based on what we want to get in the end. Excellent idea! And then we can get back and estimate how many planets developed pre-sentient life _before_ the Progenitors came and destroyed their own planets causing self-extinction, based on the estimation that the Universe is some tens of thousands of millions of years old and that Galaxies might have existed from half to 1/10 of this time. N* = 100*10^9 (that is, 1.00E+11) fp = .75 (most systems have planets) ne = .25 (few could support life, partly a cheat factor) fl = 3.00E-05 (3/100,000 have life, entirely a cheat factor. Implies there are a lot of terraforming candidates) fi = 1 (ALL good planets get colonized) fc = 1 (If colonized, the setlers participate in O-2 Civ.) fL = .125 (7 times out of 8 a planet is fallow) This gives the number of planets that could *naturally* support life in the Milky Way N = 7.03E+04 Small, isn't it? 5 galaxies Total natural planets under GIM control = 2.81E+06 Total natural GIM leased planets = 5N = 3.52E+05 Natural/Terraformed = 1/6 Total GIM planets (B or C leasable) = 1.69E+07 (We don't count A class leases because they are in need of terraforming.) Total GIM B or C leases at present time = 2.11E+06 Giving us about 11.1 planets per race, which is close enough to 10. Yes, I think the mean of 10 is consistent with the data that Earth has 10 Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Habitable Planets: was Notes on Uplift
On Friday 2004-01-09 05:34, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Trent Shipley wrote: If there are 2M inhabited planets then there are 14M fallow planets. At any given time there must be a total of 16M habitable planets. Ok, 700ky, or 1My, don't change the final numbers very much -Total O-2 habitable planets now --- leased:fallow --- natural:terraformed --- proportion of A, B, C and homeworld leases. --- Mean number of planets per citizen race --- fairness in distributing leases. I also think we came to some figures here. 2M *leased* planets, about 10 per citizen race. No comments on the ratio of terraformed to natural or what kinds of leases. With regard to planets I visit: http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/SETI/drake_equation.html Some of the factors in Drake's equation are still _extremely_ innacurate. N = N* fp ne fl fi fc fL N: communicating life. N*: number of stars, site suggests 100 * 10^9 for Milky Way alone fp: fraction of stars with planets Seems close to 1 :-) ne: number of planets where life can exist Seems close to 1/10^11 :-) fl: fraction where life evolves fi: fraction were intelligent life evolves fc: fraction that can and do communicate fL: fraction of timewhere communicating civilization exists Galactics will colonize any planet where life evolves. fi, fc, and fL are irrelevant for calculating planets under GIM control. In fact, these numbers _do_ apply to Uplift. fl is 1, because the Progenitors fed the planets with life. fi is 2/[total number of species that ever existed] if you accept Earthclan's supersticions, or 1/[total] if you are an Awaiter. Otherwise, this question is anathema. (Alternatively fi=1, all planets with life get infested with intelligent life. fc=1, all inhabited planets participate in Galcatic Civilization. 0.12 fL .1 since inhabitable planets spend most of their existence in fallow.) Ok. Ngim = N* fp ne fl N* = 100*10^9 per SETI fp = 0.2 (conservative per SETI) ne = 1 (conservative per SETI) SETIst are optmistic fanatics :-) fl = 0.0001 (pretty conservative, but then the GIM is only interested in planets with *complex* life.) fl can be any number :-) That gives us 2M *naturally* existing planets in the Milky Way controled by the GIM and 10M naturally occuring planets under GIM control through five galaxies. If 4/5 of all GIM controlled planets are terrformed then we wind up with 50M GIM planets in five galaxies. Ok. But it's better to go back and set the Drake factors based on what we want to get in the end. Excellent idea! N* = 100*10^9 (that is, 1.00E+11) fp = .75 (most systems have planets) ne = .25 (few could support life, partly a cheat factor) fl = 3.00E-05 (3/100,000 have life, entirely a cheat factor. Implies there are a lot of terraforming candidates) fi = 1 (ALL good planets get colonized) fc = 1 (If colonized, the setlers participate in O-2 Civ.) fL = .125 (7 times out of 8 a planet is fallow) This gives the number of planets that could *naturally* support life in the Milky Way N = 7.03E+04 5 galaxies Total natural planets under GIM control = 2.81E+06 Total natural GIM leased planets = 5N = 3.52E+05 Natural/Terraformed = 1/6 Total GIM planets (B or C leasable) = 1.69E+07 (We don't count A class leases because they are in need of terraforming.) Total GIM B or C leases at present time = 2.11E+06 Giving us about 11.1 planets per race, which is close enough to 10. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Uplift Parity: was Notes on Uplift
On Friday 2004-01-09 03:46, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Trent Shipley wrote: There are two sorts of instability. One level of instability is at the level of the lineage. The other is the stablity of the inter-species political order. Moderate or serious disparities in wealth curves mean that a lot of lineages die out. Having lineages die out is not necessarily a problem for Galactic political stability. In real life lineages are usually short lived--even in lineage oriented societies like the middle east or in Samoa. Political instability results when MAJOR lines die out. When the King dies without issues you get wars of succession. Ok. But it seems that in the Uplift Universe few lineages die, or there would be more aliances based on ancestry than on religious faith. Why? In uplift a races primary alliance is (usually) based on lineage. Its secondary alliance tends to be ideological. Lineage is small but strong, religion is big but weak. But it is _very_ unstable. I claim that the rate should be quite close to 1 client : 1 patron, so that _most_ lines would be mantained for long periods of time. Lets talk in terms of total clients uplifted during a patron's main sequence existence. In that case a replacement rate of one under total fairness gives this histogram. Ok, I get your point without the histograms :-) I propose: So, you would have 35% of _all_ species failing to have a client? That's too much IMHO. What about: [ 0- 20) : 0 clients --- some don't want clients --- some shouldn't have clients (a form of uplift failure) --- some get cheated out of clients (the Uplift universe ain't fair) [20- 88) : 1 client [88- 92) : 2 clients [92- 95) : 3 clients [95- 98) : 4 clients [98- 99) : 5 clients [99-100) : 6+ clients Having more that 8 or 9 clients is quite rare. If I did this right it should work out to about 1.1 client per patron. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Habitable Planets: was Notes on Uplift
At 12:13 AM 1/9/04, Trent Shipley wrote: As a side note, Asimov's Galactic Empire includes 25M planets in a single Galaxy, all of them terraformed in the past 22,000 years. But Asimov was optimist about the existence of habitable planets, we know for sure that there can't be habitable planets around, for example, Epsilon Eridani, where Asimov placed Baleyworld-Comporellon. We do? -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Uplift Parity: was Notes on Uplift
Trent Shipley wrote: There are two sorts of instability. One level of instability is at the level of the lineage. The other is the stablity of the inter-species political order. Moderate or serious disparities in wealth curves mean that a lot of lineages die out. Having lineages die out is not necessarily a problem for Galactic political stability. In real life lineages are usually short lived--even in lineage oriented societies like the middle east or in Samoa. Political instability results when MAJOR lines die out. When the King dies without issues you get wars of succession. Ok. But it seems that in the Uplift Universe few lineages die, or there would be more aliances based on ancestry than on religious faith. With enough repression *very* repressive regimes can last a long time--but usually dont. Moderately unfair regimes can be very stable, look at the wealth curve for the USA. I don't think there is a correlation between the longevity of a regime and its repressionism. But it is _very_ unstable. I claim that the rate should be quite close to 1 client : 1 patron, so that _most_ lines would be mantained for long periods of time. Lets talk in terms of total clients uplifted during a patron's main sequence existence. In that case a replacement rate of one under total fairness gives this histogram. Ok, I get your point without the histograms :-) I propose: So, you would have 35% of _all_ species failing to have a client? That's too much IMHO. With 200K species the odds of having more than, say, 12 clients would be vanishingly small. Unless a species is very long lived, which should _also_ be rare. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Habitable Planets: was Notes on Uplift
Ronn!Blankenship wrote: But Asimov was optimist about the existence of habitable planets, we know for sure that there can't be habitable planets around, for example, Epsilon Eridani, where Asimov placed Baleyworld-Comporellon. We do? Doesn't Epsilon Eridani have a hot-Jupiter orbiting it in an elliptical orbit that crosses the region where liquid water is possible? Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Habitable Planets: was Notes on Uplift
At 06:37 AM 1/9/04, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Ronn!Blankenship wrote: But Asimov was optimist about the existence of habitable planets, we know for sure that there can't be habitable planets around, for example, Epsilon Eridani, where Asimov placed Baleyworld-Comporellon. We do? Doesn't Epsilon Eridani have a hot-Jupiter orbiting it in an elliptical orbit that crosses the region where liquid water is possible? It has a Jupiter-like planet. Not a hot Jupiter (a ~ 0.1 AU): the figure I seem to recall is a = 3.3 AU. I don't recall the eccentricity. Guess I'll have to look it up. 16 Cygni B, a well-known solar analogue (though possibly not as close as 18 Scorpii, which was described this week as a near-twin of the Sun) has a Jupiter-like planet whose orbit does cross from the equivalent of near the orbit of Venus to outside the orbit of Mars. -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Habitable Planets: was Notes on Uplift
Trent Shipley wrote: No. I propose that there are 2M planets _with_ galactic civilization settled on them. But they could be 20M or 200k. Good. So 2M is a _reasonable_ statistical expectiation for planets that could support civilzation across 5 galaxies. As a side note, Asimov's Galactic Empire includes 25M planets in a single Galaxy, all of them terraformed in the past 22,000 years. But Asimov was optimist about the existence of habitable planets, we know for sure that there can't be habitable planets around, for example, Epsilon Eridani, where Asimov placed Baleyworld-Comporellon. Stars come and go, planets come and go. The terraforming of planets should probably just keep the number of planets in a stable number. Lets come back to terraforming. I think that it would be a major (and s-l-o-w-l-y increasing) factor in the total number of habitable planets. The key word here is _slowly_. For practical purposes, we can suppose that the number is more or less constant during the lifecycle of a standard species [1 million years] BTW, I also guess that there are about 10 fallow planets for each settled planet, based on the data that a planet is usually leased for 100ky, and it is let fallow for a minimum of 500ky [usually more]. I am going to assume that a factor of 1:10 is the high end for an inhabited to fallow ratio if planets are leased for an average 100ky and fallow for a minimum of 500ky. What we need is a figure for mean fallow time. Lets pick 700ky. If there are 2M inhabited planets then there are 14M fallow planets. At any given time there must be a total of 16M habitable planets. Ok, 700ky, or 1My, don't change the final numbers very much Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Indenture: was Notes on Uplift
Trent Shipley wrote: Adding a *true* indenture phase would be nice. I think this is in agreement with the Canon. I should be hunting for quotes now, but I'm too busy - ah, the good old times when I had a job and _lots_ of time to spend in my hobbies! Then we would have pre-uplift/claim phase minority (uplift proper, uplift stages 1-5 per GURPS Uplift 2nd ed.) indenture (payoff for minority, new request from DB SeJ, et al) maturity. That's what I think is the correct sequence of events. Would you like me to add an extra-cannonical true indenture to any future fan-fic I might write? Maybe you can keep things a little bit obscured :-) Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Habitable Planets: was Notes on Uplift
On Thursday 2004-01-08 06:00, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Trent Shipley wrote: No. I propose that there are 2M planets _with_ galactic civilization settled on them. But they could be 20M or 200k. Good. So 2M is a _reasonable_ statistical expectiation for planets that could support civilzation across 5 galaxies. As a side note, Asimov's Galactic Empire includes 25M planets in a single Galaxy, all of them terraformed in the past 22,000 years. But Asimov was optimist about the existence of habitable planets, we know for sure that there can't be habitable planets around, for example, Epsilon Eridani, where Asimov placed Baleyworld-Comporellon. Stars come and go, planets come and go. The terraforming of planets should probably just keep the number of planets in a stable number. Lets come back to terraforming. I think that it would be a major (and s-l-o-w-l-y increasing) factor in the total number of habitable planets. The key word here is _slowly_. For practical purposes, we can suppose that the number is more or less constant during the lifecycle of a standard species [1 million years] BTW, I also guess that there are about 10 fallow planets for each settled planet, based on the data that a planet is usually leased for 100ky, and it is let fallow for a minimum of 500ky [usually more]. I am going to assume that a factor of 1:10 is the high end for an inhabited to fallow ratio if planets are leased for an average 100ky and fallow for a minimum of 500ky. What we need is a figure for mean fallow time. Lets pick 700ky. If there are 2M inhabited planets then there are 14M fallow planets. At any given time there must be a total of 16M habitable planets. Ok, 700ky, or 1My, don't change the final numbers very much Nope. Look. I want to write about Clan Tothtoon. To do that it would be helpful to pin down some numbers, namely: -Total number of races in O-2 Civilization now. (total number of individuals or biomass would be interesting but not critical) -Average number of clients per patron (obviously slightly more than 1) -- Distribution of access to clients among potential patrons (Members of Clan Tothtoon tend to be priviledged, the question is how priviledged.) -Total O-2 habitable planets now --- leased:fallow --- natural:terraformed --- proportion of A, B, C and homeworld leases. --- Mean number of planets per citizen race --- fairness in distributing leases. With regard to planets I visit: http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/SETI/drake_equation.html N = N* fp ne fl fi fc fL N: communicating life. N*: number of stars, site suggests 100 * 10^9 for Milky Way alone fp: fraction of stars with planets ne: number of planets where life can exist fl: fraction where life evolves fi: fraction were intelligent life evolves fc: fraction that can and do communicate fL: fraction of timewhere communicating civilization exists Galactics will colonize any planet where life evolves. fi, fc, and fL are irrelevant for calculating planets under GIM control. (Alternatively fi=1, all planets with life get infested with intelligent life. fc=1, all inhabited planets participate in Galcatic Civilization. 0.12 fL .1 since inhabitable planets spend most of their existence in fallow.) Ngim = N* fp ne fl N* = 100*10^9 per SETI fp = 0.2 (conservative per SETI) ne = 1 (conservative per SETI) fl = 0.0001 (pretty conservative, but then the GIM is only interested in planets with *complex* life.) That gives us 2M *naturally* existing planets in the Milky Way controled by the GIM and 10M naturally occuring planets under GIM control through five galaxies. If 4/5 of all GIM controlled planets are terrformed then we wind up with 50M GIM planets in five galaxies. But for ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Indenture: was Notes on Uplift
On Thursday 2003-12-25 05:46, Alberto Monteiro wrote: I agree with your interpretation of GURPS Uplift. But I still think that the indenture phase should be _another_ phase. Uplift is considered a service that the patron does to the client, so this must be followed by the indenture, that is way of paying back. Alberto Monteiro Adding a *true* indenture phase would be nice. Then we would have pre-uplift/claim phase minority (uplift proper, uplift stages 1-5 per GURPS Uplift 2nd ed.) indenture (payoff for minority, new request from DB SeJ, et al) maturity. Would you like me to add an extra-cannonical true indenture to any future fan-fic I might write? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Uplift Parity: was Notes on Uplift
On Wednesday 2003-12-24 06:22, Alberto Monteiro wrote: If we want 1MY mean life-spans, then 11% clients and 5% patrons might provide for interesting but not grossly inequitble politics consistent with existing sources on the Uplift Universe. Uh? I picked 11% I got the 11%. I didn't get the provide for interesting but not grossly inequitble politics consistent with existing sources on the Uplift Universe. because there will be some mortality among uplift projects. With current medical technology the replacement birthrate is something like 2.1 births per couple. 1.1 is a convenient (if not totally convincing) replacement rate for the population of O-2 species Ok, but I am not (yet) worried about this precision :-) My other point is that if there are X uplift minors and X uplifters then the system is egalitarian. The Uplift Universe is *VERY* fair. Even if there are 10 uplift projects for 9 uplifters the system is still pretty darn fair. We get what economists would call a flat wealth curve. The implication is that there is little class warfare -- most (almost all) races are middle class and equal. It implies that even powerful clans, like the Soro or Thennanin are not too powerful. Democratic and egalitarian socio-political dynamics keep them in check. This is bad for literature. No - the system may be fair, but some clans might twist it a little bit. So, most of the 200k races would be egalitarian, except a small minority of powerful clans. If there are 10 clients being uplifted then we need fewer than 10 patrons. If there are 2 or 3 patrons per 10 clients things are ripe for revolution. But then things would be quite unstable. Most of the lines would quickly extinguish - at the fast rate of 50% to 66% each generation! There are two sorts of instability. One level of instability is at the level of the lineage. The other is the stablity of the inter-species political order. Moderate or serious disparities in wealth curves mean that a lot of lineages die out. Having lineages die out is not necessarily a problem for Galactic political stability. In real life lineages are usually short lived--even in lineage oriented societies like the middle east or in Samoa. Political instability results when MAJOR lines die out. When the King dies without issues you get wars of succession. With enough repression *very* repressive regimes can last a long time--but usually dont. Moderately unfair regimes can be very stable, look at the wealth curve for the USA. 4 to 6 to 10 and things are noticibly unfair, but we can claim there is equal opportunity. Social Darwinism is good say Dr. Pangloss. 7 or 8 and we have some sort of dialectic between fair distribution and rewards to cummulative advantage. The wealth curves that involve 4 to 8 patrons per 10 clients probably make for good story backgrounds. But it is _very_ unstable. I claim that the rate should be quite close to 1 client : 1 patron, so that _most_ lines would be mantained for long periods of time. Lets talk in terms of total clients uplifted during a patron's main sequence existence. In that case a replacement rate of one under total fairness gives this histogram. 0| 1 1| 1 2| 1 3| 1 4| 1 5| 1 6| 1 7| 1 8| 1 9| 1 With a replacement rate of 1.1 total fairness gives: 0| 1 1| 1 2| 1 3| 1 4| 1 5| 1 6| 1 7| 1 8| 1 9| #2 If 10% of species don't want to uplift clients then we get a totally fair system with: 0| . 1| 1 2| 1 3| 1 4| 1 5| 1 6| 1 7| 1 8| #2 9| #2 With 10% opting not to have clients, 10% prevented from having clients and some minimal unfairness we might have 0| . 1| . 2| 1 3| 1 4| 1 5| 1 6| 1 7| 1 8| #2 9| ##3 This doesn't prevent a few lines to usurp clients from extinguished lines, and growing at the expense of others. These expansionist lines should be just a few, otherwise the system would be too unstable. Literature is saved: the famous fanatical races of the Canon are those expansionist clans, eager to expand by taking Terra's 3 unfinished races. No. I dont like it. You are saying that the system is so fair only the powerful would want to change it. (These ratios assume that patrons are assigned their clients all at once, instead of finishing a project and starting the next Still you see my point.) I propose: 00| . 01| . 02| . 03| . 04| . 05| . 06| . 07| . 08| . 09| . 10| . 11| . 12| . 13| . 14| . 15| . 16| . 17| . 18| . 19| . 20| . 21| . 22| . 23| . 24| . 25| . 26| . 27| . 28| . 29| . 30| . 31| . 32| . 33| . 34| . 35| 1 36| 1 37| 1 38| 1 39| 1 40| 1 41| 1 42| 1 43| 1 44| 1 45| 1 46| 1 47| 1 48| 1 49| 1 50| 1 51| 1 52| 1 53| 1 54| 1 55| 1 56| 1 57| 1 58| 1 59| 1 60| 1 61| 1 62| 1 63| 1 64| 1 65| 1 66| 1 67| 1 68| 1 69| 1 70| 1 71| 1 72| 1 73| 1 74| 1 75| 1 76| 1 77| 1 78| 1 79| 1 80| #2 81| #2 82| #2 83| #2 84| #2 85| #2 86| #2 87| #2 88| #2 89| #2 90| ##3 91| ##3 92| ##3 93| ##3 94| ##3 95| ###4 96| ###4
Habitable Planets: was Notes on Uplift
On Wednesday 2003-12-24 06:22, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Trent Shipley wrote: My estimate includes all five. Of course, as in Drake's equation, each factor has an error from 10% to 900% :-) * about 10 planets per race * about 200,000 races Alberto, as I recall Drake's Equation has no factor for Planets Fallow by order of the GIM. ??? What I said is that the factors I get for Uplift have error bars similar to Drake's equation's terms: they can be 1/10 to 10 times the guesstimate. Check. Are you proposing there 2M habitable planets, some of which are Fallow or that there are, perhaps, 6M habitable planets 2M of which are *not* Fallow? No. I propose that there are 2M planets _with_ galactic civilization settled on them. But they could be 20M or 200k. Good. So 2M is a _reasonable_ statistical expectiation for planets that could support civilzation across 5 galaxies. Have you made any allowance for an increase in the number of habitable planets due to terraforming? (Do you need to?) No, because I suppose that this is a small factor in the last, say, 500 My. Stars come and go, planets come and go. The terraforming of planets should probably just keep the number of planets in a stable number. Lets come back to terraforming. I think that it would be a major (and s-l-o-w-l-y increasing) factor in the total number of habitable planets. BTW, I also guess that there are about 10 fallow planets for each settled planet, based on the data that a planet is usually leased for 100ky, and it is let fallow for a minimum of 500ky [usually more]. I am going to assume that a factor of 1:10 is the high end for an inhabited to fallow ratio if planets are leased for an average 100ky and fallow for a minimum of 500ky. What we need is a figure for mean fallow time. Lets pick 700ky. If there are 2M inhabited planets then there are 14M fallow planets. At any given time there must be a total of 16M habitable planets. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Habitable Planets: was Notes on Uplift
Perhaps of interest: Donald Savage Headquarters, WashingtonJanuary 7, 2004 (Phone: 202/358-1727) Steve Roy Marshall Space Flight Center, Huntsville, Ala. (Phone: 256/544-6535) Megan Watzke Chandra X-ray Observatory Center, Cambridge, Mass. (Phone: 617/496-7998) RELEASE: 04-013 CHANDRA LOCATES MOTHER LODE OF PLANETARY ORE IN COLLIDING GALAXIES NASA's Chandra X-ray Observatory has discovered rich deposits of neon, magnesium and silicon in a pair of colliding galaxies known as The Antennae. When the clouds containing these elements cool, an exceptionally high number of stars with planets should form. These results may foreshadow the fate of our Milky Way and its future collision with the Andromeda Galaxy. The amount of enrichment of elements in The Antennae is phenomenal, said Giuseppina Fabbiano of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics (CfA) in Cambridge, Mass. at a press conference at a meeting of the American Astronomical Society in Atlanta. This must be due to a very high rate of supernova explosions in these colliding galaxies. Fabbiano is lead author of a paper on this discovery by a team of U.S. and U.K. scientists that will appear in an upcoming issue of The Astrophysical Journal Letters. When galaxies collide, direct hits between stars are extremely rare, but collisions between huge gas clouds in the galaxies can trigger a stellar baby boom. The most massive of these stars race through their evolution in a few million years and explode as supernovas. Heavy elements manufactured inside these stars are blown away by the explosions and enrich the surrounding gas for thousands of light-years. The amount of heavy elements supports earlier studies that indicate there was a very high rate of relatively recent supernovas, 30 times that of the Milky Way, according to collaborator Andreas Zezas of the CfA. The supernova violence also heats the gas to millions of degrees Celsius. This makes much of the matter in the clouds invisible to optical telescopes, but able to be observed by an X-ray telescope. Chandra data revealed for the first time regions of varying enrichment in the galaxies: in one cloud, magnesium and silicon are 16 and 24 times as abundant as in the sun. These are the kinds of elements that form the ultimate building blocks for habitable planets, said Andrew King of the University of Leicester, U.K., and a study coauthor. This process occurs in all galaxies, but it is greatly enhanced by the collision. Usually we only see the new elements in diluted form as they are mixed up with the rest of the interstellar gas. CfA coauthor Alessandro Baldi noted, This is spectacular confirmation of the idea that the basis of chemistry, of planets and ultimately of life is assembled inside stars and spread through galaxies by supernova explosions. As the enriched gas cools, a new generation of stars will form and, with the stars, new planets. Some studies indicate clouds enriched in heavy elements are more likely to form stars with planetary systems, so in the future an unusually high number of planets may form in The Antennae. If life arises on a significant fraction of these planets, then in the future The Antennae will be teeming with life, speculated Francois Schweizer, another coauthor, from the Carnegie Observatories in Pasadena, Calif. A vast number of sun-like stars and planetary systems will age in unison for billions of years. At a distance of about 60 million light-years, The Antennae system is the nearest example of a collision between two large galaxies. The collision, which began a couple hundred million years ago, has been so violent that gas and stars from the galaxies have been ejected into the two long arcs that give the system its name. The Chandra image shows spectacular loops of 3-million-degree gas spreading out south of The Antennae. These loops may be carrying out some of the elements dispersed by supernovas into intergalactic space, said Trevor Ponman of Birmingham University, U.K. The Antennae give a close-up view of the type of collisions that were common in the early universe and likely led to the formation of most stars existing today. They may also provide a glimpse of the future of our Milky Way Galaxy, which is on a collision course with the Andromeda Galaxy. At the present rate, a crash such as the one now occurring in The Antennae could happen in about 3 billion years. Tremendous gravitational forces will disrupt both galaxies and reform them, probably as a giant elliptical galaxy with hundreds of millions of young sun-like stars, and possibly planetary systems. Additional information and images are available at http://chandra.harvard.edu and http://chandra.nasa.gov -end- * * * NASA press releases and other information are available automatically by sending an Internet electronic mail message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message (not the subject line)
Re: Notes on Uplift
Trent Shipley wrote: No!!! The uplift process can be long or short, but the indenture period is fixed. Note, I am working off of SeJ's Uplift 2nd ed. I don't think DB has (or would need to) develop this little theme. Still, for myself it would be nice to have this bit of background pinned down. Ok, but one of the useful purposes of these discussions is that we may find contradictions in the Canon and the Deuterocanon, so that the next editions can be a little better, isn't it? :-) Alberto, your reading of the text that there are basically four gross phases of maturity (pre-uplift, uplift, indenture, full-maturity) seems reasonable. Even so, I do not think it was what SeJ intended. I think that the uplift stage (stages 1-5), minor client, and indenture are all meant to be used as synonyms. On Uplift 2nd ed p82 SeJ talks about indenture--that is to say being a minor client--in general. On p83 his intent is not to talk about a different stage in a species life-cycle, instead he just goes into more specific detail about what he just discussed on p82. I know. It seems that the indeture phase is coincident with the uplift phase. [evidences omitted] I agree with your interpretation of GURPS Uplift. But I still think that the indenture phase should be _another_ phase. Uplift is considered a service that the patron does to the client, so this must be followed by the indenture, that is way of paying back. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Notes on Uplift
Trent Shipley wrote: My estimate includes all five. Of course, as in Drake's equation, each factor has an error from 10% to 900% :-) * about 10 planets per race * about 200,000 races Alberto, as I recall Drake's Equation has no factor for Planets Fallow by order of the GIM. ??? What I said is that the factors I get for Uplift have error bars similar to Drake's equation's terms: they can be 1/10 to 10 times the guesstimate. Are you proposing there 2M habitable planets, some of which are Fallow or that there are, perhaps, 6M habitable planets 2M of which are *not* Fallow? No. I propose that there are 2M planets _with_ galactic civilization settled on them. But they could be 20M or 200k. Have you made any allowance for an increase in the number of habitable planets due to terraforming? (Do you need to?) No, because I suppose that this is a small factor in the last, say, 500 My. Stars come and go, planets come and go. The terraforming of planets should probably just keep the number of planets in a stable number. BTW, I also guess that there are about 10 fallow planets for each settled planet, based on the data that a planet is usually leased for 100ky, and it is let fallow for a minimum of 500ky [usually more]. If we want 1MY mean life-spans, then 11% clients and 5% patrons might provide for interesting but not grossly inequitble politics consistent with existing sources on the Uplift Universe. Uh? I picked 11% I got the 11%. I didn't get the provide for interesting but not grossly inequitble politics consistent with existing sources on the Uplift Universe. because there will be some mortality among uplift projects. With current medical technology the replacement birthrate is something like 2.1 births per couple. 1.1 is a convenient (if not totally convincing) replacement rate for the population of O-2 species Ok, but I am not (yet) worried about this precision :-) My other point is that if there are X uplift minors and X uplifters then the system is egalitarian. The Uplift Universe is *VERY* fair. Even if there are 10 uplift projects for 9 uplifters the system is still pretty darn fair. We get what economists would call a flat wealth curve. The implication is that there is little class warfare -- most (almost all) races are middle class and equal. It implies that even powerful clans, like the Soro or Thennanin are not too powerful. Democratic and egalitarian socio-political dynamics keep them in check. This is bad for literature. No - the system may be fair, but some clans might twist it a little bit. So, most of the 200k races would be egalitarian, except a small minority of powerful clans. If there are 10 clients being uplifted then we need fewer than 10 patrons. If there are 2 or 3 patrons per 10 clients things are ripe for revolution. But then things would be quite unstable. Most of the lines would quickly extinguish - at the fast rate of 50% to 66% each generation! 4 to 6 to 10 and things are noticibly unfair, but we can claim there is equal opportunity. Social Darwinism is good say Dr. Pangloss. 7 or 8 and we have some sort of dialectic between fair distribution and rewards to cummulative advantage. The wealth curves that involve 4 to 8 patrons per 10 clients probably make for good story backgrounds. But it is _very_ unstable. I claim that the rate should be quite close to 1 client : 1 patron, so that _most_ lines would be mantained for long periods of time. This doesn't prevent a few lines to usurp clients from extinguished lines, and growing at the expense of others. These expansionist lines should be just a few, otherwise the system would be too unstable. Literature is saved: the famous fanatical races of the Canon are those expansionist clans, eager to expand by taking Terra's 3 unfinished races. (These ratios assume that patrons are assigned their clients all at once, instead of finishing a project and starting the next Still you see my point.) Yes - I think Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Notes on Uplift
On Monday 2003-12-22 08:45, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Trent Shipley wrote: I have done some estimates on this. From data from GURPS Uplift and from Contacting Aliens, I estimate: * about 2 million populated planets at each time Across how many galaxies? All five of them. (Note that for the 1000KY +- Contact Galaxy 4 was fallow, so it doesn't matter. The real question is whether the GIM populates 2M planets in Galaxy 2 or throughout GIM controled space.) My estimate includes all five. Of course, as in Drake's equation, each factor has an error from 10% to 900% :-) * about 10 planets per race * about 200,000 races Alberto, as I recall Drake's Equation has no factor for Planets Fallow by order of the GIM. Are you proposing there 2M habitable planets, some of which are Fallow or that there are, perhaps, 6M habitable planets 2M of which are *not* Fallow? Have you made any allowance for an increase in the number of habitable planets due to terraforming? (Do you need to?) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Notes on Uplift
We approximate the rate of uplift as an average of 1.1 client per mature species. (The [fictional] real rate has to include non-reproducers and mortality and some growth in the number of citizen species it must be between 1.01 and 1.2.) Clients are not fairly distributed. Lets assume 11% of all O-2 citizens are minors. (1% of these are going to get 'lost') Note this seems to imply that the mean life expectancy for an O-2 citizen race is about 1,000,000 years. This 1 My is explicitly stated in Heaven's Reach. This is a bit short for purposes of continuity with the fiction. If you want the mean life expectency between the start of uplift and passing-on to be 10MY then you need to divide by 10, so only 1.1% of all O-2 citizens would be minors. But 10 My is too much for an average. Notice that everybody expects the Buyur to be retired, after only 0.5 My. With maximally equitble distribution about 10% of Citizens are patrons, 1% of the population have 2 clients. In this sort of society you might want to uplift your client early to maximize your power. This implies a species lifecycle of 10% minority, 10% young adult, 10% active parent with client, 70% empty nest (except for the 10% of the population who get a second client).With low death rates the average client in its minority/indenture would have 4 ancestors in its patronymic because a citizen tends to start its uplift project when it is about 200KY old. And this is consistent with the data from the Books. Alternatively, a most responsible citizen might uplift their client late so they have a lot of wisdom and technology for the project. Then you have 10% minor, 60% adult, 10% parent, 20% elder. Patronymics tend to be short. And Patronymics _are_ short: few races enumerate more than 3 or 4 daddies. At really low levels of equity only 1% of all species might be patrons at any given time and many patrons will be active uplifting clients throughout their careers as main sequence citizens. If we want 1MY mean life-spans, then 11% clients and 5% patrons might provide for interesting but not grossly inequitble politics consistent with existing sources on the Uplift Universe. Uh? I picked 11% because there will be some mortality among uplift projects. With current medical technology the replacement birthrate is something like 2.1 births per couple. 1.1 is a convenient (if not totally convincing) replacement rate for the population of O-2 species My other point is that if there are X uplift minors and X uplifters then the system is egalitarian. The Uplift Universe is *VERY* fair. Even if there are 10 uplift projects for 9 uplifters the system is still pretty darn fair. We get what economists would call a flat wealth curve. The implication is that there is little class warfare -- most (almost all) races are middle class and equal. It implies that even powerful clans, like the Soro or Thennanin are not too powerful. Democratic and egalitarian socio-political dynamics keep them in check. This is bad for literature. If there are 10 clients being uplifted then we need fewer than 10 patrons. If there are 2 or 3 patrons per 10 clients things are ripe for revolution. 4 to 6 to 10 and things are noticibly unfair, but we can claim there is equal opportunity. Social Darwinism is good say Dr. Pangloss. 7 or 8 and we have some sort of dialectic between fair distribution and rewards to cummulative advantage. The wealth curves that involve 4 to 8 patrons per 10 clients probably make for good story backgrounds. (These ratios assume that patrons are assigned their clients all at once, instead of finishing a project and starting the next Still you see my point.) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Notes on Uplift
Your model seems to be pre-uplift (stage 0) - uplifting client (stages 1 to 4?) - indentured client (stage 5?) Since stage has the same population, and assuming mortality is minimal, each stage must take the same amount of time. Yes: the period where a species is under uplift may vary a lot, but it's said somewhere that the mean [median?] is 100k. And the period of indenture is explicitly stated as 100k. My mental model is pre-uplift (stage 0) - uplifting clients, this includes indenture (stages 1-5) Ok, but why do you join the indenture period with the uplift period? They are quite distinct phases. The pre-uplift stage goes fast but has high mortality as the GUI denies claims or proposed projects. It is also irrelevant. We do not worry about pre-clients in this census. Yes :-) The mean term for uplift/indenture combined is 100KY No!!! The uplift process can be long or short, but the indenture period is fixed. First, let me say that I am a bit embarassed to be having this conversation since it shows the degree to which I have denegrated into a Trekkie -- writing fan-fic is bad enough but I am about to indulge in proof-texting science fiction. Of course, my embarasment is not enough to make me stop Note, I am working off of SeJ's Uplift 2nd ed. I don't think DB has (or would need to) develop this little theme. Still, for myself it would be nice to have this bit of background pinned down. Alberto, your reading of the text that there are basically four gross phases of maturity (pre-uplift, uplift, indenture, full-maturity) seems reasonable. Even so, I do not think it was what SeJ intended. I think that the uplift stage (stages 1-5), minor client, and indenture are all meant to be used as synonyms. On Uplift 2nd ed p82 SeJ talks about indenture--that is to say being a minor client--in general. On p83 his intent is not to talk about a different stage in a species life-cycle, instead he just goes into more specific detail about what he just discussed on p82. I cannot prove outright that SeJ did not mean to say that there was a stage of uplift minority followed by a stage of uplift indenture, b I can marshal circumstantial evidence that his intent was instead that uplift minority and indenture were in fact meant to be two words for the same thing. -- Had SeJ meant indenture to be a stage following uplift we would expect him to be quite explicit about it. The order of the passages would be different in the 2nd edition. He would first talk about uplift THEN about indenture. Furthermore, there would be a scentence in the passage about indenture to the effect The period of uplift is paid off with a period of indenture. (There is a passage that implies this, but it is in the glossare under 'indenture' and can be read as meaning that uplift is paid-off with services rendered during the process of uplift.) There would somewhere be a reference to 100,000 years followed by another 100,000 years or a reference to 200,000 years of subjegation somewhere in DB or SeJ. -- When not practiced by wierdos like Humans, the 2nd edition allows for only about a 30% variation in the duration of uplift if we keep stage 5 at 50KY (and the book say 50KY is a *minimum.) The minimum period is 83KY and the max is 105KY. There is no need to posit a second 100KY because many species are uplifted really fast. -- The indenture passage on p82 say that patrons can perform uplift manipulations on their indentured clients. If the clients have completed their uplift then how can their patrons still perform uplift on them? -- The Nahalli are reindentured to the Thennanin for punishment, and presumably rehabilitation. This implies that the Nahalli are *NOT* subject to uplift as clients in their minority, but the Thennanin are responsible for the Nahalli. The Thennanin have been cursed with an albatros--they cannot reform the Nahalli without uplift manipualiton. (This might make sense if the Thennanin were the Nahalli's uplift consorts and are being punished rather than rewarded.) -- When the Stoort free the Kaschan (their elders) and the Heebi (juniors) from the J'8lek, the Kaschan are indentured to their uplift consorts as were the Heebi, the Pargi. Why? Under your interpretation they were *indentured* this means that they must have finished or been absolved of further patron supervised uplift. Why force them into an indenture? If they go into indenture why not the trouble-making Stoort? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Notes on Uplift
Trent Shipley wrote: I have done some estimates on this. From data from GURPS Uplift and from Contacting Aliens, I estimate: * about 2 million populated planets at each time Across how many galaxies? All five of them. (Note that for the 1000KY +- Contact Galaxy 4 was fallow, so it doesn't matter. The real question is whether the GIM populates 2M planets in Galaxy 2 or throughout GIM controled space.) My estimate includes all five. Of course, as in Drake's equation, each factor has an error from 10% to 900% :-) * about 10 planets per race * about 200,000 races I'll take this on faith, with the qualification that 200K O-2 races is somwhat inconvenient for writers. Yep :-) Most of those species would be doing nothing, except about * 10% being uplifted * 10% in the 100,000-year period of indenture * 10% uplifting a pre-sentient race * 10% being served by an indentured client Your model seems to be pre-uplift (stage 0) - uplifting client (stages 1 to 4?) - indentured client (stage 5?) Since stage has the same population, and assuming mortality is minimal, each stage must take the same amount of time. Yes: the period where a species is under uplift may vary a lot, but it's said somewhere that the mean [median?] is 100k. And the period of indenture is explicitly stated as 100k. My mental model is pre-uplift (stage 0) - uplifting clients, this includes indenture (stages 1-5) Ok, but why do you join the indenture period with the uplift period? They are quite distinct phases. The pre-uplift stage goes fast but has high mortality as the GUI denies claims or proposed projects. It is also irrelevant. We do not worry about pre-clients in this census. Yes :-) The mean term for uplift/indenture combined is 100KY No!!! The uplift process can be long or short, but the indenture period is fixed. We approximate the rate of uplift as an average of 1.1 client per mature species. (The [fictional] real rate has to include non-reproducers and mortality and some growth in the number of citizen species it must be between 1.01 and 1.2.) Clients are not fairly distributed. Lets assume 11% of all O-2 citizens are minors. (1% of these are going to get 'lost') Note this seems to imply that the mean life expectancy for an O-2 citizen race is about 1,000,000 years. This 1 My is explicitly stated in Heaven's Reach. This is a bit short for purposes of continuity with the fiction. If you want the mean life expectency between the start of uplift and passing-on to be 10MY then you need to divide by 10, so only 1.1% of all O-2 citizens would be minors. But 10 My is too much for an average. Notice that everybody expects the Buyur to be retired, after only 0.5 My. With maximally equitble distribution about 10% of Citizens are patrons, 1% of the population have 2 clients. In this sort of society you might want to uplift your client early to maximize your power. This implies a species lifecycle of 10% minority, 10% young adult, 10% active parent with client, 70% empty nest (except for the 10% of the population who get a second client).With low death rates the average client in its minority/indenture would have 4 ancestors in its patronymic because a citizen tends to start its uplift project when it is about 200KY old. And this is consistent with the data from the Books. Alternatively, a most responsible citizen might uplift their client late so they have a lot of wisdom and technology for the project. Then you have 10% minor, 60% adult, 10% parent, 20% elder. Patronymics tend to be short. And Patronymics _are_ short: few races enumerate more than 3 or 4 daddies. At really low levels of equity only 1% of all species might be patrons at any given time and many patrons will be active uplifting clients throughout their careers as main sequence citizens. If we want 1MY mean life-spans, then 11% clients and 5% patrons might provide for interesting but not grossly inequitble politics consistent with existing sources on the Uplift Universe. Uh? Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Notes on Uplift
Naturally, since I stopped publishing the Encyclopedia, I have had a burst of creativity with Uplift Universe created topics. One topic leads to another. In the course of thinking about the Tothtoon, the question arises of how uplift, in a political and demographic sense works. The first questions that come to mind are for the interval in question how many O-2 habitable planets are there, how many of them are currently leased for habitation, and how many uplifted main-sequence O-2 species are competing for those planets. At one point I suggested that there might be 10,000 to 12,000 uplifted species, but now I think this might be a bit low. (See: http://www.geocities.com/allianceforprogress/encyclopedia/gray/grymtrb1.html ) I also think that the encyclopediest or writer working in the Uplift Universe should assume that the number of available habitats is growing slowly, the total biomass of sapient O-2 species is growing slightly faster than the available habitat--despite the best efforts of the Migration Institute, and the number of uplifted species is growing faster than the increase in population of individuals. Nevertheless, the rate of increase in the number of uplifted species is still pretty low. We are led to believe that uplift is pretty rare. Some causes for this scarcity might be natural. The implication is that it is just very rare to find a new species suitable for uplift. But the level of Galactic technology is very high. If they let themselves, Galactics could uplift insects. The critical causes of uplift scarcity must be artificial. For some reason, each ur species can be the subject of no more than one uplift project. Second, even though it damages no ecosystem, potential ur populations living on fallow planets cannot be uplifted. Most important, the Uplift Institute sets an arbitrary threshold for how promising a candidate population must be before it can be adopted as the root-stock for an uplift project. Then there is the question of how many clients each mature species needs to uplift to achieve replacement. Even in the best of circumstances some patrons will not want to uplift clients and some clients will become extinct before reaching maturity. The replacement rate must be just over one client per mature citizen species. So for each mature citizen species the GUI needs to award something like 1.1 clients. There are several ways that clients might be distributed among patrons. First the allotment could be random. If a species finds a potential client, then it can uplift it. Rich species can buy potential clients if they can find anyone willing to sell. (This is a good role-playing model since it results in type of adventure seed: find the client.) Even in other types of distribution systems randomness could play a part. For example, explorers might discover lots of potential clients but the GUI is reluctant to issue more than one permit per patron. In this case potential isn't rare and mature species are likely to be very selective about picking an ur population. In another scenario the GUI forces very successful explorers to sell surplus claims. Distribution of clients could be fairly equitable. In this case nearly every species who wants a client gets one. However, being allowed to uplift a second client is a rare privilege and only the most powerful patrons get permission to uplift three or more clients. In this scenario there is a lot of resentment for the Human clan *because they are so wealthy!* Galactics feel about Humans the way others feel about Kuwait--they are rich without having to earn their wealth. In a slightly less equitable system of distribution most would-be patrons uplift one client, a significant minority will never uplift any client, and a few patrons have two or more clients. From a writers perspective this can make for moral subtlety --is the Human resentment of the Galactic order justified? With moderate inequality the plurality of citizen species uplift only one client, the next most common category will never uplift clients, there is nothing remarkable about having two or three clients even though this is an unusual level of wealth. More successful patrons often designate heir-apparents. In a situation of heavy inequality uplift is dominated by powerful clans. Maybe half of all citizen species will never get a client, another quarter consider themselves fortunate to uplift a single client, and the last quarter uplift two or more clients. Powerful patron lines dominate oligarchal Galactic politics. Lesser lines usually die out in two or three generations. They are replaced by less favored clients of the great patron lines. In a situation of extreme inequality Galactic civilization takes on a feudal quality. Great Patrons almost always designate a lucky client as their primary heir. Junior clan members may get to uplift one or two clients. These
Re: Notes on Uplift
Trent Shipley wrote: The first questions that come to mind are for the interval in question how many O-2 habitable planets are there, how many of them are currently leased for habitation, and how many uplifted main-sequence O-2 species are competing for those planets. At one point I suggested that there might be 10,000 to 12,000 uplifted species, but now I think this might be a bit low. I have done some estimates on this. From data from GURPS Uplift and from Contacting Aliens, I estimate: * about 2 million populated planets at each time * about 10 planets per race * about 200,000 races Most of those species would be doing nothing, except about * 10% being uplifted * 10% in the 100,000-year period of indenture * 10% uplifting a pre-sentient race * 10% being served by an indentured client Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Notes on Uplift
In a message dated 12/21/2003 6:29:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have done some estimates on this. From data from GURPS Uplift and from Contacting Aliens, I estimate: * about 2 million populated planets at each time * about 10 planets per race * about 200,000 races Most of those species would be doing nothing, except about * 10% being uplifted * 10% in the 100,000-year period of indenture * 10% uplifting a pre-sentient race * 10% being served by an indentured client Alberto Monteiro If Earth had ten leased worlds, everyone else, who is older, more important, and more civilized, should have more planets. If they are playing the Uplift-is-political-power game. For no reason other than comic tribute, I gave the Hoon 42 planets. It's probably less. I don't think our good Dr. has run the numbers. It hasn't yet come up in a needed plot situation. ...42 planets and soon they are all going to be sending vacationers to Alvin's bay. William Taylor - Thousands and thousands of uplifted races, and not once do the Progenitors call. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Notes on Uplift
William Taylor wrote: * about 10 planets per race If Earth had ten leased worlds, everyone else, who is older, more important, and more civilized, should have more planets. If they are playing the Uplift-is-political-power game. Earth _is_ a powerful patron, with two clients. If we think that Uplift must be in equilibrium, then _most_ species would have one and only one client. For no reason other than comic tribute, I gave the Hoon 42 planets. It's probably less. I don't think our good Dr. has run the numbers. It hasn't yet come up in a needed plot situation. ...42 planets and soon they are all going to be sending vacationers to Alvin's bay. 42 are too much for the Hoon. They don't even have a client, do they? Maybe you had better expand these 42 planets to the Hoon plus their former patrons the Guthatsa, plus those that uplifted the Guthatsa and those that uplifted those that uplifted the Guthatsa [who should be thinking about retiring]. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Notes on Uplift
In a message dated 12/21/2003 7:49:08 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 42 are too much for the Hoon. They don't even have a client, do they? Everyone forgets the Rousit. Everyone. I tell you they have been left off of more lists than the Hobbits by the Ents. If planets are leased mostly according to patron client status, the Hoon should still have a few more than Earthclan. I was thinking more of 275.000 years vrs just 300 years. Even if they only have 20 planets, because of the nature of their so called natural talents, a goodly percentage of the Hoon live in Kazzkark like settings. A hoonish compound where the accountants count for the entire working population. No matter the exact number, the major if not only export for any Hoon planet will if fact be the Hoon. Now, Alberto, since very few races are as crazy as us'en Earthlings, what is the ratio of living humans to hoon? Everything I'm trying to do by way of numbers, is to make Alvin filthy rich whether or not he really wants to be so. William Taylor ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Notes on Uplift
William Taylor wrote: 42 are too much for the Hoon. They don't even have a client, do they? Everyone forgets the Rousit. Everyone. I tell you they have been left off of more lists than the Hobbits by the Ents. :-) If planets are leased mostly according to patron client status, the Hoon should still have a few more than Earthclan. Ok, but the _average_ should be close to Earthclan's 10 planets. I was thinking more of 275.000 years vrs just 300 years. Wrong thinking. To the Galactics, Earth's Uplift _must_ have began more than 100,000 years ago. Even if they only have 20 planets, because of the nature of their so called natural talents, a goodly percentage of the Hoon live in Kazzkark like settings. A hoonish compound where the accountants count for the entire working population. No matter the exact number, the major if not only export for any Hoon planet will if fact be the Hoon. So maybe there are 42 planets _with_ sizeable Hoon population, but these planets may have other races. This makes more sense. Now, Alberto, since very few races are as crazy as us'en Earthlings, what is the ratio of living humans to hoon? I have no way to guess. I guess there are only a few extra-Earth humans. There shouldn't be enough time to build up a large extra-Earth human population, given that humans aren't motivated to have too many children when they reach a high level of civilization. Everything I'm trying to do by way of numbers, is to make Alvin filthy rich whether or not he really wants to be so. I know :-) Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
