Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.

[Robert via cctalk]

OK, it's definitely the display board. The replacement board came
Friday, I installed it today and all the characters are displaying
correctly.

The old board is now in the antistatic bag that the replacement came
in. I say "old", but looking at the numbers following the part number
(9522YG49 on the original, 8425YG37 on the replacement) and the use of
Carbon comp vs film resistors (a mix on the original, all Carbon comp
on the replacement) I think that the replacement board might actually
be older than the faulty one.

As and when I have some time, I'll read the numbers on the DIP ICs and
see if I can figure out which might be the shift register. Visual
inspection under a strong light didn't reveal any obvious dry joints,
but I'll look a bit closer with a lens.

After that, my options range from tapping the pins with an iron, in
case a minor reflow fixes it, to just replacing it - TTL is cheap,
after all, unless I get all obsessive and start looking for an IC with
the right date code, which could happen. ;-) It never hurts to have a
spare.

Speaking of spares, the same seller has several other 5110 cards. No
CPU, but he does have some Read/Write Storage. Does anybody know
whether upgrading the memory is as simple as plugging in another
board, or does it involve wiring changes to the backplane, or other
complex manoevres?

-- 
Robert

RE: Through-hole desoldering (was Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.)

[Rob Jarratt via cctalk]

> 
> A couple of years ago I bought the UK-branded equivalent of the Zhongdi ZD-
> 915 desoldering station and I can quite honestly say it’s the best thing I’ve
> bought for this hobby/obsession. To anyone struggling with solder wick and
> manual pumps it’s worth far more in saved time than anything else.
> 
> Spares are easy to get from Zhongdi in China and since they make the things
> themselves you can get any spare part you need.
> 


I have one too, CPC sell it as Duratool 
(http://cpc.farnell.com/duratool/d00672/desoldering-station-uk-eu-plug/dp/SD01384)
 and yes it has been worth it.

Regards

Rob

Re: Through-hole desoldering (was Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.)

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 07/13/2017 11:26 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:



On 7/13/2017 6:52 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:

On 07/13/2017 11:02 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:



On 7/13/2017 12:31 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
There are also vacuum desoldering stations that use 
"shop air" to derive
the vacuum, rather than having an internal pump. I've 
never used them as I
don't normally have an air compressor anywhere near my 
electronics

workbench.
This works very well.  The best station for 7400 type 
IC's was a Weller vacuum desoldering station.


I have a Pace station at work with a vacuum pump in the 
box.  At home I have one with a foot pedal that contains 
a venturi vacuum generator that requires compressed air.  
These work really well. I think the handpieces are model

SX-70.

Jon
I had one of the Wellers with the probe and head like the 
DS-100 with the builtin vacuum.  It was nowhere near as 
good as the one with the shop air venturi.  The latter hit 
with enough more force to clear a hole more often that it 
was the one to have.


Nice to have a portable home one, however.
The air/venturi station is quite portable, but the place you 
use it has to be plumbed for shop air, so not as portable as 
it might seem. Now that SMT is the rule, I don't use it as much.


Jon

Re: Through-hole desoldering (was Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.)

[Adrian Graham via cctalk]

> On 13 Jul 2017, at 22:46, Eric Smith via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 10:42 AM, William Sudbrink via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> If you have the bucks, go for a Pace station with an SX-100 desoldering
>> tool.  40 pin chips
>> fall out like they were never soldered in the first place.
>> 
> 
> That's my experience with the Hakko 472D-01. Presumably the FR410-03 would
> work as well or better.

A couple of years ago I bought the UK-branded equivalent of the Zhongdi ZD-915 
desoldering station and I can quite honestly say it’s the best thing I’ve 
bought for this hobby/obsession. To anyone struggling with solder wick and 
manual pumps it’s worth far more in saved time than anything else. 

Spares are easy to get from Zhongdi in China and since they make the things 
themselves you can get any spare part you need.

—
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards

Re: Through-hole desoldering (was Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.)

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 7/13/2017 6:52 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:

On 07/13/2017 11:02 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:



On 7/13/2017 12:31 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
There are also vacuum desoldering stations that use "shop air" to 
derive
the vacuum, rather than having an internal pump. I've never used 
them as I

don't normally have an air compressor anywhere near my electronics
workbench.
This works very well.  The best station for 7400 type IC's was a 
Weller vacuum desoldering station.


I have a Pace station at work with a vacuum pump in the box.  At home 
I have one with a foot pedal that contains a venturi vacuum generator 
that requires compressed air.  These work really well. I think the 
handpieces are model

SX-70.

Jon
I had one of the Wellers with the probe and head like the DS-100 with 
the builtin vacuum.  It was nowhere near as good as the one with the 
shop air venturi.  The latter hit with enough more force to clear a hole 
more often that it was the one to have.


Nice to have a portable home one, however.
thanks
Jim

Re: Through-hole desoldering (was Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.)

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 07/13/2017 11:02 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:



On 7/13/2017 12:31 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
There are also vacuum desoldering stations that use "shop 
air" to derive
the vacuum, rather than having an internal pump. I've 
never used them as I
don't normally have an air compressor anywhere near my 
electronics

workbench.
This works very well.  The best station for 7400 type IC's 
was a Weller vacuum desoldering station.


I have a Pace station at work with a vacuum pump in the 
box.  At home I have one with a foot pedal that contains a 
venturi vacuum generator that requires compressed air.  
These work really well.  I think the handpieces are model

SX-70.

Jon

Re: Through-hole desoldering (was Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.)

[Paul Berger via cctalk]

On 2017-07-13 9:26 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:
14-in-1-Welding-Torch-Nozzle-Tip-Cleaner-Cutting-Reamer-Kit-For-Welder-Soldering/ 


http://www.ebay.com/itm/322411677190

The seller is showing the same sort of kit we used with the DS-100. 
However I don't know what it has to do with a torch. 
They are commonly used to clean the tip on an oxy-acetylene  torch, they 
come in a set of different sizes just like the tips for the torch.


Paul.

Re: Through-hole desoldering (was Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.)

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 7/13/2017 4:50 PM, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote:

That was my experience with Weller and Pace, they clogged way too
fast and you had to wait for the glass to cool to clean them.
There was a toolkit that Weller supplied with very high temp probes.  
They cleared the head.  you only should have needed to deal with the 
wool in the glass maybe once / day.


14-in-1-Welding-Torch-Nozzle-Tip-Cleaner-Cutting-Reamer-Kit-For-Welder-Soldering/
http://www.ebay.com/itm/322411677190

The seller is showing the same sort of kit we used with the DS-100. 
However I don't know what it has to do with a torch.


Also I've not touched any lead free or small lead tools.  This is 
strictly from many years ago, with 7400 large parts and minis.  I'd have 
to study and take a lot of advise to touch anything now.

thanks
Jim

That's part of the "beauty" of the SX-100 (90 and I think 80 as well), they have
disposable cardboard traps.  The 100 series tips have also been redesigned.
I have not had one clog yet.

Bill S.


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Re: Through-hole desoldering (was Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.)

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 07/13/2017 03:32 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:

> There were off brand tips.  made 100% of the difference.  We got some of
> the ones from non Weller sources and they were just not workable.

These weren't--I'm still working on my grocery bag full-o-tips that I
picked up for pennies on the dollar when Sunnyvale Electronics went out
of business.  Red and white Weller packages.  I doubt there was much of
a market for Weller knockoffs in the early 1980s.  When did Sunnyvale
Electroncis go belly-up?  I don't recall--I still have my Pioneer
turntable tat I bought there.

I tried the DS100 with 90 psi air and decided that a good, consistent
suction with a big reservoir was far more suitable.

Look, Weller made the WTCP soldering stations--a design that's endured
pretty much unchanged for decades.  Great stuff.   I'm on my second
heater and still have yet to get to the bottom of my big bag o' tops.

However, they've also discontinued older desoldering tools and
introduced improved ones several times.   That tells me that the DS100
could be--and was--improved.

If I did more through-hole stuff today, I'd probably spring for a new
Weller desoldering rig just to see how much they've improved.

--Chuck
















> 
> Also your Soldapullit alternative worked in about 1 in 10 uses for me. 
> I suspect the boards I had had different heat characteristics, and I'd
> usually end up with half baked shots and maybe even having to re-tin and
> go to the weller (which involved taking a board to the office).
> 
> I worked with a guy who was fixing 30 to 50 boards a day with 1 to 10
> 7400 type IC's per board with the DS-100.  If properly set up it
> worked.  My partner worked with him and they had a system to keep the
> Weller going, and I know I don't know all the details.  Just buying one
> that was used and not rebuilding it with known components didn't work.
> 
> My attempt at that failed when I bought one.
> 
> Amount of wool, type of wool, pressure of shop air, volume of delivery,
> proper adjustment of the vacuum system, all made the vacuum @ the
> desolder tip work properly.
> 
> I'd have taken it off your hands.
> thanks
> Jim
> 
> On 7/13/2017 10:22 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> I eventually gave the thing away--I already had a soldering station, so
>> it wasn't worth keeping the monstrosity around.
> 
> 


-- 
--Chuck
-

"The first thing we do, let's kill all the spammers."

RE: Through-hole desoldering (was Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.)

[William Sudbrink via cctalk]

> That was my experience with Weller and Pace, they clogged way too
> fast and you had to wait for the glass to cool to clean them.

That's part of the "beauty" of the SX-100 (90 and I think 80 as well), they have
disposable cardboard traps.  The 100 series tips have also been redesigned.
I have not had one clog yet.

Bill S.


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Re: Through-hole desoldering (was Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.)

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 7/13/17 10:22 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

> It was horrible--the tip would never stay tinned, the glass collector
> and hose was always in the way (that glass gets *hot*) and the action
> wasn't that good.

That was my experience with Weller and Pace, they clogged way too fast
and you had to wait for the glass to cool to clean them. I made the
mistake of getting another Weller last fall and just gave up
trying to make in work reliably.

The all-in one and pencil Hakkos that I bought after that work amazingly
well and are easy to clean. They also ended up being cheaper in the end
than what I spent on the Weller base unit and all of the repair parts.

Re: Through-hole desoldering (was Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.)

[jim stephens via cctalk]

There were off brand tips.  made 100% of the difference.  We got some of 
the ones from non Weller sources and they were just not workable.


Also your Soldapullit alternative worked in about 1 in 10 uses for me.  
I suspect the boards I had had different heat characteristics, and I'd 
usually end up with half baked shots and maybe even having to re-tin and 
go to the weller (which involved taking a board to the office).


I worked with a guy who was fixing 30 to 50 boards a day with 1 to 10 
7400 type IC's per board with the DS-100.  If properly set up it 
worked.  My partner worked with him and they had a system to keep the 
Weller going, and I know I don't know all the details.  Just buying one 
that was used and not rebuilding it with known components didn't work.


My attempt at that failed when I bought one.

Amount of wool, type of wool, pressure of shop air, volume of delivery, 
proper adjustment of the vacuum system, all made the vacuum @ the 
desolder tip work properly.


I'd have taken it off your hands.
thanks
Jim

On 7/13/2017 10:22 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

I eventually gave the thing away--I already had a soldering station, so
it wasn't worth keeping the monstrosity around.

Re: Through-hole desoldering (was Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.)

[Eric Smith via cctalk]

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 10:42 AM, William Sudbrink via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> If you have the bucks, go for a Pace station with an SX-100 desoldering
> tool.  40 pin chips
> fall out like they were never soldered in the first place.
>

That's my experience with the Hakko 472D-01. Presumably the FR410-03 would
work as well or better.

Re: Through-hole desoldering (was Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.)

[Mike Loewen via cctalk]

On Thu, 13 Jul 2017, Peter Cetinski wrote:


On Jul 13, 2017, at 1:23 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk  
wrote:


  I used a Pace rework station in the USAF, vacuum desoldering and hot air - 
very nice, but pricey.



Wow, where were you stationed?  In the late 1980s I was at Beale AFB 
working on SR-71 cameras and we used solder wick and manual suckers!


   McChord AFB in Tacoma, WA from '83 - '86.  We did a lot of in-house 
repair on the boards from the Hughes Air Defense computer system 
AN/FYQ-93.  We would also repair boards from other bases who weren't able 
to fix them.  :-)



Mike Loewen mloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology  http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

Re: Through-hole desoldering (was Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.)

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Loewen via cctalk" <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2017 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: Through-hole desoldering (was Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the 
character set live? And other questions.)


> On Thu, 13 Jul 2017, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> I've heard the Pace stations are *very* good. Never personally used one,
>> they're above what I was willing to spend, even used!
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jonathan
> 
>I used a Pace rework station in the USAF, vacuum desoldering and hot 
> air - very nice, but pricey.
> 
> 
> Mike Loewen mloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us
> Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

---
Being poor (and cheap) I use a vacuum cleaner, reduced down to some vinyl 
tubing with a 1/8" aluminum tip at the end.

m

Re: Through-hole desoldering (was Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.)

[Peter Cetinski via cctalk]

On Jul 13, 2017, at 1:23 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
>   I used a Pace rework station in the USAF, vacuum desoldering and hot air - 
> very nice, but pricey.
> 

Wow, where were you stationed?  In the late 1980s I was at Beale AFB working on 
SR-71 cameras and we used solder wick and manual suckers!

Re: Through-hole desoldering (was Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.)

[Mike Loewen via cctalk]

On Thu, 13 Jul 2017, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote:


I've heard the Pace stations are *very* good. Never personally used one,
they're above what I was willing to spend, even used!

Thanks,
Jonathan


   I used a Pace rework station in the USAF, vacuum desoldering and hot 
air - very nice, but pricey.



Mike Loewen mloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology  http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

Re: Through-hole desoldering (was Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.)

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 07/13/2017 09:02 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 7/13/2017 12:31 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
>> There are also vacuum desoldering stations that use "shop air" to
>> derive the vacuum, rather than having an internal pump. I've never
>> used them as I don't normally have an air compressor anywhere near
>> my electronics workbench.
> This works very well.  The best station for 7400 type IC's was a
> Weller vacuum desoldering station.

Careful.   Years ago (wasn't everything?)  I picked up a DS100 at a
bankruptcy auction.  This is the unit with two TCP irons--one for
soldering and one for desoldering.  The desoldering one has a power cord
and a vacuum line that feeds into a glass cylinder stuffed with glass
wool and thence to a hollow tip.

It uses a footswitch and plant air that creates a vacuum through an
aspirator-type assembly.  I screwed the aspirator shut and fed it from a
vacuum reservoir maintained by a carbon-vane pump.  Lots of vacuum.

You'd think that this would be the perfect setup, right?

It was horrible--the tip would never stay tinned, the glass collector
and hose was always in the way (that glass gets *hot*) and the action
wasn't that good.

I eventually gave the thing away--I already had a soldering station, so
it wasn't worth keeping the monstrosity around.

I went back to my old standby--the big Soldapullt.  It does the job
well.   I also have one of those 40W irons with a hollow tip and a
built-in Soldapullt-type assembly, but it doesn't work nearly as well as
the old standby.

My .02 worth of experience,
Chuck

Re: Through-hole desoldering (was Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.)

[systems_glitch via cctalk]

I've heard the Pace stations are *very* good. Never personally used one,
they're above what I was willing to spend, even used!

Thanks,
Jonathan

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 12:42 PM, William Sudbrink via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> The 808 is nice, I have one.  They come up used on ebay from time to time
> relatively cheap.
>
> But I've been spoiled now.
>
> If you have the bucks, go for a Pace station with an SX-100 desoldering
> tool.  40 pin chips
> fall out like they were never soldered in the first place.  I removed five
> S-100 sockets from
> a cracked motherboard while watching TV.  Each one lifted out on the first
> try.  No real
> fatigue, barely had to pay attention to what I was doing.  My wife
> commented that it was
> like watching an experienced knitter.
>
> Bill S.
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>

RE: Through-hole desoldering (was Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.)

[William Sudbrink via cctalk]

The 808 is nice, I have one.  They come up used on ebay from time to time 
relatively cheap.

But I've been spoiled now.

If you have the bucks, go for a Pace station with an SX-100 desoldering tool.  
40 pin chips
fall out like they were never soldered in the first place.  I removed five 
S-100 sockets from
a cracked motherboard while watching TV.  Each one lifted out on the first try. 
 No real
fatigue, barely had to pay attention to what I was doing.  My wife commented 
that it was
like watching an experienced knitter.

Bill S.


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Re: Through-hole desoldering (was Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.)

[systems_glitch via cctalk]

Watch out with using compressed gas duster (*not* canned air) on anything
hot. It can decompose into pretty horrible compounds, among them (depending
on duster type) phosgene gas and/or hydrogen fluoride. The current batch
I've got is difluroethane and will decompose HF gas (which of course
becomes hydrofluoric acid on dissolving in water, like in your lungs) if
ignited or passed over a sufficiently hot surface.

Thanks,
Jonathan

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 12:02 PM, jim stephens via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 7/13/2017 12:31 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
>
>> There are also vacuum desoldering stations that use "shop air" to derive
>> the vacuum, rather than having an internal pump. I've never used them as I
>> don't normally have an air compressor anywhere near my electronics
>> workbench.
>>
> This works very well.  The best station for 7400 type IC's was a Weller
> vacuum desoldering station.
>
> You had to have the full complement of accessories, and it was important
> to have a dryer on the
> air.  There was a cleaning tool set which allowed you to service the tips,
> and replacing them from
> time to time was necessary.  The technique of clipping off the IC didn't
> work that well with this,
> as the heat sinked into the chip as you desoldered.  If you removed that,
> you would potentially
> delaminate the PC board, and in the days I used, it, the boards didn't
> have that good of thru hole
> plating.  You could potentially pull the plating out of the hole if you
> were not careful / lucky.
>
> I never had any boards with vias connecting to internal laminations, so
> that never burned me,
> but these days it's a different story.
>
> also being able to heat and apply air to the holes helped and that was
> easy with shop air.  Not
> as good with canned air, if you use that to flush out holes after pulling
> ic's
>
> I also have a plastic gizmo that provided vacuum from shop air, but it was
> not near as good as
> the Weller's integrated unit.
> thanks
> Jim
>

Re: Through-hole desoldering (was Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.)

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 7/13/2017 12:31 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:

There are also vacuum desoldering stations that use "shop air" to derive
the vacuum, rather than having an internal pump. I've never used them as I
don't normally have an air compressor anywhere near my electronics
workbench.
This works very well.  The best station for 7400 type IC's was a Weller 
vacuum desoldering station.


You had to have the full complement of accessories, and it was important 
to have a dryer on the
air.  There was a cleaning tool set which allowed you to service the 
tips, and replacing them from
time to time was necessary.  The technique of clipping off the IC didn't 
work that well with this,
as the heat sinked into the chip as you desoldered.  If you removed 
that, you would potentially
delaminate the PC board, and in the days I used, it, the boards didn't 
have that good of thru hole
plating.  You could potentially pull the plating out of the hole if you 
were not careful / lucky.


I never had any boards with vias connecting to internal laminations, so 
that never burned me,

but these days it's a different story.

also being able to heat and apply air to the holes helped and that was 
easy with shop air.  Not
as good with canned air, if you use that to flush out holes after 
pulling ic's


I also have a plastic gizmo that provided vacuum from shop air, but it 
was not near as good as

the Weller's integrated unit.
thanks
Jim

Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.

[Robert via cctalk]

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 2:12 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctalk
 wrote:

> Only the last bit to shift out of the register will have passed through
> all flip-flops; numbering the flip-flops in such a way that the flip-flop
> furthest away from the output is the first flip-flop, a single missing bit
> at the end of output could indicate a problem with either the output of
> the first flip-flop, or the input of the second flip-flop. If two bits are
> missing at the end, output of second flip-flop or input of third flip-flop.

You're right, of course. I assumed a parallel input and then modeled a
serial one. In my defence, it was late and there had been beer. ;)

If I don't see any obvious dry joints, it might be best to just
replace the register. I have another display card coming in the mail,
too, which is another option.

-- 
Robert

Re: Through-hole desoldering (was Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.)

[Robert via cctalk]

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 2:31 AM, Eric Smith  wrote:
> 2) vacuum desoldering gun: lots of people liked the Hakko 808, but it's
> discontiued. The Hakko FR-300 looks like a reasonable replacement, and sells
> for around $310. The drawback compared to the vacuum desoldering station
> with pencil tool is that the handpiece is much heavier and bulkier since it
> contains the vacuum pump; this is probably not an issue if you don't use it
> to do a lot of desoldering in a single session.

I have an Ungar one of those, that I got cheap because the glass
chamber was cracked. I've been meaning to have a crack at fixing it.

> 6) soldering iron with built-in squeeze-bulb - same bulb issue as #5, but
> even more awkward to handle

This is what I use at the moment. Perhaps this will be the spur that I
need to fix my Ungar?

It appears that an admin re-subscribed me and messages are coming
through again. Thanks admin!

-- 
Robert

Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.

[Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctalk]

On 7/13/17, 4:38 AM, "cctalk on behalf of Robert via cctalk"
 wrote:

>It does look like that last column (or possibly two) is missing,
>doesn't it? Going back to the info on your excellent site, the shift
>register does seem a good candidate. If we assume that it is parallel
>in, serial out, then the problem would have to be on the input side,
>as all the bits pass through every flip flop (ruling them out) and the
>output is flawed absolutely consistently (ruling out an intermittent
>fault there). The same reasons militate against a serial input, I
>think.

Only the last bit to shift out of the register will have passed through
all flip-flops; numbering the flip-flops in such a way that the flip-flop
furthest away from the output is the first flip-flop, a single missing bit
at the end of output could indicate a problem with either the output of
the first flip-flop, or the input of the second flip-flop. If two bits are
missing at the end, output of second flip-flop or input of third flip-flop.

Camiel.

Re: Through-hole desoldering (was Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.)

[systems_glitch via cctalk]

Another vote for the Hakko 472D. You can pick them up cheaply as used
equipment. Do note that if you prefer the gun style handle over the pencil
style, you can interchange them. If you have shop air, there's an even
cheaper Hakko 470B -- I've heard it's a better/more effective pump than the
472D's electric motor driven pump, presumably they sell for less since many
people don't have shop air.

I initially avoided buying a Hakko station due to poor experiences with
them at a previous job. There, they were so bad and unreliable that I just
brought my own spring-type solder sucker from home and used that! Having
rebuilt mine (purchased used, incomplete) and owned it for several years
now, I'm pretty certain the issue was with the guy who was supposed to
maintain it. They do require a lot of cleaning/maintenance, especially if
you're working on old boards that never had the rosin flux removed.

Thanks,
Jonathan

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 7:59 AM, Peter Cetinski via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> > On Jul 13, 2017, at 3:31 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > 2) vacuum desoldering gun: lots of people liked the Hakko 808, but it's
> > discontiued. The Hakko FR-300 looks like a reasonable replacement, and
> > sells for around $310. The drawback compared to the vacuum desoldering
> > station with pencil tool is that the handpiece is much heavier and
> bulkier
> > since it contains the vacuum pump; this is probably not an issue if you
> > don't use it to do a lot of desoldering in a single session.
> >
>
> I recently purchased a Hakko FR300 for $259, which is my first experience
> with a decent desoldering tool.  I can’t recommend it enough if you have a
> fair amount of desoldering to perform.  Compared to solder wicking or a
> solder sucker it really is a world of difference.  It’s one of the best
> tool investments I’ve ever made.
>
>

Re: Through-hole desoldering (was Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.)

[Peter Cetinski via cctalk]

> On Jul 13, 2017, at 3:31 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 2) vacuum desoldering gun: lots of people liked the Hakko 808, but it's
> discontiued. The Hakko FR-300 looks like a reasonable replacement, and
> sells for around $310. The drawback compared to the vacuum desoldering
> station with pencil tool is that the handpiece is much heavier and bulkier
> since it contains the vacuum pump; this is probably not an issue if you
> don't use it to do a lot of desoldering in a single session.
> 

I recently purchased a Hakko FR300 for $259, which is my first experience with 
a decent desoldering tool.  I can’t recommend it enough if you have a fair 
amount of desoldering to perform.  Compared to solder wicking or a solder 
sucker it really is a world of difference.  It’s one of the best tool 
investments I’ve ever made.  

Through-hole desoldering (was Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.)

[Eric Smith via cctalk]

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 8:38 PM, Robert via cctalk 
wrote:

> Side note: It's probably not a good time to try out my shiny new heat
> gun that I've never yet used. Maybe save my first go on it for
> something more replaceable.
>

A heat gun is definitely NOT the right tool for desoldering through-hole
parts, especially DIP ICs.

If you're not intending to reuse a DIP IC, cut the leads off before
desoldering.  Cut the leads close to the package body, not close to the PCB.

Some people say solder wick is good enough for desoldering DIP ICs, but
I've never been satisfied with it. Maybe my technique is faulty. I've had
best results with vacuum desoldering equipment. In order of my preference:

1) vacuum desoldering station with pencil tool: I use a Hakko 472D-01,
which sadly is discontinued. Last fall I accidentally installed a DIN 41612
96-pin connector on the wrong side of a board, and had already soldered
more than half of the pins before noticing the error. It only took me a few
minutes with the Hakko to desolder the pins. The connector and board were
very clean, so I was able to reinstall the same connector on the correct
side of the board. When I purchased it, the Hakko 472D-01 was around $500;
the replacement is the FR410-03 which has better specs (mostly higher power
at 140W vs 110W) but is nearly $1000.

2) vacuum desoldering gun: lots of people liked the Hakko 808, but it's
discontiued. The Hakko FR-300 looks like a reasonable replacement, and
sells for around $310. The drawback compared to the vacuum desoldering
station with pencil tool is that the handpiece is much heavier and bulkier
since it contains the vacuum pump; this is probably not an issue if you
don't use it to do a lot of desoldering in a single session.

3) desoldering pencil with a built-in manual piston-operated pump; I use
one from Paladin, but they seem to have discontinued it, though there are
many similar ones such as:
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/21-8240

4) soldering iron with separate manual piston-operated pump - you have to
be quick switching from soldering iron to pump

5) soldering iron with separate squeeze-bulb - in my experience a bulb just
doesn't work as well as a piston-operated pump

6) soldering iron with built-in squeeze-bulb - same bulb issue as #5, but
even more awkward to handle

Of course, YMMV.

There are also vacuum desoldering stations that use "shop air" to derive
the vacuum, rather than having an internal pump. I've never used them as I
don't normally have an air compressor anywhere near my electronics
workbench.

Since there is a lot less through-hole production now than in the past,
some of the soldering equipment companies that formerly made vacuum
desoldering equipment have abandoned that market segment.

Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.

[Robert via cctalk]

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 03:13 AM, Christian Corti
 wrote:
> I hope this is also true in your case. According to your picture, the last
> column of each character is missing. It could be an issue around the shift
> register (e.g. the Display Data register, a latch, cold solder joint,
> ...). I just see that I have the following info on my site (didn't
> remember that detail ;-) ):

Apologies for the delayed reply and for any messy formatting. I seem
to have stopped getting messages from the list, so am building this by
replying to an earlier message and copying and pasting from the cctalk
archive.

It does look like that last column (or possibly two) is missing,
doesn't it? Going back to the info on your excellent site, the shift
register does seem a good candidate. If we assume that it is parallel
in, serial out, then the problem would have to be on the input side,
as all the bits pass through every flip flop (ruling them out) and the
output is flawed absolutely consistently (ruling out an intermittent
fault there). The same reasons militate against a serial input, I
think.

When I next see the board (hopefully this weekend) I'll try to
identify the shift register (which the cross ref on your site will
make a lot easier) and look for dry joints under high power
magnification. I don't have a complete and working logic analyzer and
in any case, the board is not really accessible with a logic probe but
TTL is cheap so, even if I don't see anything, a blind faith
replacement might be worth considering. I note that it's a 10 bit job
and there's nothing in your parts list greater than 8 bits, so I may
be looking at more than one IC.

Side note: It's probably not a good time to try out my shiny new heat
gun that I've never yet used. Maybe save my first go on it for
something more replaceable.

Of course, a parallel input implies a parallel source, so we still
can't rule out an issue with the character ROS. But I do feel like
we're making progress and I now have something to do that's more
focused than just pulling and reinserting boards until the Gold wears
off the pins, so I'm going to call that a step in the right direction.

Also, thanks for the additional scans, which I have already downloaded.

-- 
Robert

Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2017, Christian Corti wrote:
The scans I made are quite old; I do have a much better scanner now so I 
could just rescan the manuals for better quality.


Ok, I've added the 5114 MIM, and also added some pages of the System Logic 
Manual, including the Display Adapter and the 5114 drive. I will scan the 
other pages but it can take some time because the pages are very large and 
I need to scan them in slices.


Christian

Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

On Tue, 11 Jul 2017, Robert wrote:

So, faulty support logic, rather than a faulty ROS. That's encouraging.


I hope this is also true in your case. According to your picture, the last 
column of each character is missing. It could be an issue around the shift 
register (e.g. the Display Data register, a latch, cold solder joint, 
...). I just see that I have the following info on my site (didn't 
remember that detail ;-) ):
"The 8 bit wide characters are stored as a pattern of seven different bits 
followed by a 0-bit in a 2048x16 display ROS (character generator). These 
8 bits are loaded along with two 0 padding bits into a 10 bit shift 
register. The address of the 8 bit pattern is based on the Display Data 
register that contains the current character and the character row counter 
that counts the current display row within a character."


Christian

Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

On Tue, 11 Jul 2017, Santo Nucifora wrote:

I might have some better documentation that I just haven't had a chance to
scan yet.

[...]

5110 System Library Binder 1
SY31-0550-2 IBM 5110 Computer Maintenance Information Manual
SY31-0551-0 IBM 5114 Diskette Unit Maintenance Information Manual
SY31-0414-3 IBM 5103 Printer Maintenance Information Manual
SY31-0581-0 IBM 5110 Language Support Maintenance Information Manual
S131-0627-1 IBM 5110 Computer Parts Catalog
S131-0626-0 IBM 5114 Diskette Unit Parts Catalog
S131-0598-3 IBM 5103 Printer Parts Catalog
SY31-0553-1 IBM 5110 Maintenance Analysis Procedures

5110 System Library Binder 2
GA21-9300-0 IBM 5110 General Information and Physical Planning Manual
SA21-9311-0 IBM 5110 Customer Support Functions Reference Manual
SA21-9308-1 IBM 5110 BASIC Reference Manual

5110 System Library Binder 3
SA21-9306-0 IBM 5110 BASIC Introduction
SA21-9307-1 IBM 5110 BASIC User's Guide
SA21-9318-0 IBM 5110 Computing System Setup Procedure


This is more or less the complete manual set that I have, too. I also have 
the manuals for the Async/Serial I/O adapter and *maybe* the IEEE adapter.


The scans I made are quite old; I do have a much better scanner now so I 
could just rescan the manuals for better quality.


Christian

Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.

[Santo Nucifora via cctalk]

Hi Christian,

I might have some better documentation that I just haven't had a chance to
scan yet.

I have several binders that make up the IBM 5110 System Library.  In terms
of manuals enclosed for the 5110, I have the following that I can scan in
the next week or so so that you can put a copy of these on his site.  Can
you let me know what you need from this list?  Make note of the revisions
because this set looks up to date (to a point) with IBM Tech Newsletters
that include revisions and page changes.

5110 System Library Binder 1
SY31-0550-2 IBM 5110 Computer Maintenance Information Manual
SY31-0551-0 IBM 5114 Diskette Unit Maintenance Information Manual
SY31-0414-3 IBM 5103 Printer Maintenance Information Manual
SY31-0581-0 IBM 5110 Language Support Maintenance Information Manual
S131-0627-1 IBM 5110 Computer Parts Catalog
S131-0626-0 IBM 5114 Diskette Unit Parts Catalog
S131-0598-3 IBM 5103 Printer Parts Catalog
SY31-0553-1 IBM 5110 Maintenance Analysis Procedures

5110 System Library Binder 2
GA21-9300-0 IBM 5110 General Information and Physical Planning Manual
SA21-9311-0 IBM 5110 Customer Support Functions Reference Manual
SA21-9308-1 IBM 5110 BASIC Reference Manual

5110 System Library Binder 3
SA21-9306-0 IBM 5110 BASIC Introduction
SA21-9307-1 IBM 5110 BASIC User's Guide
SA21-9318-0 IBM 5110 Computing System Setup Procedure

Hope this helps,
Santo

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Jul 2017, Robert wrote:
>
>> maintenance manual and that for the 5103. No luck on the 5114, yet,
>> but I'll keep looking.
>>
>
> Ok, I will scan that manual the next days. But in general the contents of
> the 5114 MIM is contained withing the 5120 MIM.
>
> Christian
>
>

Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.

[Robert via cctalk]

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 8:08 AM, Christian Corti
 wrote:
> The characters are stored on the display interface card. I had a similar
> fault in one of my 5110s, in my case it was a faulty TTL chip (IIRC a 74159
> demux).

So, faulty support logic, rather than a faulty ROS. That's encouraging.

> You have to a) clean the print head and b) replace the rubber rollers that
> transport the ink ribbon. The rollers will be goo and make a "big mess"(tm).

Oh joy! That's something to look forward to.

> Your search engine's broken, right? ;-)
> They're either on my site or at bitsavers.

I found your site, but somehow missed the page with the manuals. I
don't know how, it's right there in plain sight.

> I can't see any pictures, and _no_, I won't register just to see the
> pictures.

I'll email you a pic showing the malformed characters, off list and
would be grateful if you'd let me know whether there's any similarity
to your previously faulty 5110.

> Ok, I will scan that manual the next days. But in general the contents of the 
> 5114 MIM is contained withing the 5120 MIM.

Thanks! I'll take a look at the 5120 MIM in the interim.

Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

On Tue, 11 Jul 2017, Robert wrote:

maintenance manual and that for the 5103. No luck on the 5114, yet,
but I'll keep looking.


Ok, I will scan that manual the next days. But in general the contents of 
the 5114 MIM is contained withing the 5120 MIM.


Christian

Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.

[Robert via cctalk]

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 4:28 PM, Eric Smith  wrote:
> The Maintenance Information Manual (SY31-0550) has that information. The
> most relevant pages are 3-3, 3.6, and 3-35 through 3-39.
>
> The character generator is the "Display ROS" on the display adapter card,
> which is installed in the main backplane (A1) socket G.

Thanks Eric! I had found some of the MAPS, but with the info that
you've provided I've been able to locate pdf copies of both the 5110
maintenance manual and that for the 5103. No luck on the 5114, yet,
but I'll keep looking.

Does anybody here disagree with my assumption that it is most likely
to be the Display ROS that is faulty? It appears to be the only ROS
that isn't checked by the Bring-Up Diagnostic, which may explain how I
got as far as I did.

Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

On Mon, 10 Jul 2017, Robert wrote:

It's always the same characters that are mangled and it's independent
of their position on the screen, so I suspect possible corruption in
the character set, wherever in ROS or the display card it is held.


The characters are stored on the display interface card. I had a similar 
fault in one of my 5110s, in my case it was a faulty TTL chip (IIRC a 
74159 demux).



to the printer, but I think the print head is gummed up.


You have to a) clean the print head and b) replace the rubber rollers that 
transport the ink ribbon. The rollers will be goo and make a "big 
mess"(tm).



2. Can anybody direct me to a pdf copy of the user manual and/or the
service manual for the 5103?


Your search engine's broken, right? ;-)
They're either on my site or at bitsavers.


Here's a link to my thread on the VCF, with pictures:
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?58583-IBM-5110-with-5114-drive-amp-5103-printer=467901#post467901


I can't see any pictures, and _no_, I won't register just to see the 
pictures.


Christian

Re: IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.

[Eric Smith via cctalk]

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 1:13 PM, Robert via cctalk 
wrote:

> I've recently picked up a 5110 (BASIC only), along with a 5114 floppy
>
...

> t powers on, completes its self test and gets to LOAD0, but several
> of the characters are only partially drawn on the screen. The lower
>
...

> 1. Can anybody tell me which card the character set is held on? None
>
of the manuals that I've looked at provide that info.
>

The Maintenance Information Manual (SY31-0550) has that information. The
most relevant pages are 3-3, 3.6, and 3-35 through 3-39.

The character generator is the "Display ROS" on the display adapter card,
which is installed in the main backplane (A1) socket G.

IBM 5110 - Where does the character set live? And other questions.

[Robert via cctalk]

Hi folks.

I'm new here, but some of you will know me from the VCF forums, where
I go by roberttx.

I've recently picked up a 5110 (BASIC only), along with a 5114 floppy
drive and a 5103 printer. It has all the mandatory cards, but no
optional ones.

It powers on, completes its self test and gets to LOAD0, but several
of the characters are only partially drawn on the screen. The lower
case ones are in better shape than the upper case, but even some of
them are incomplete.

It's always the same characters that are mangled and it's independent
of their position on the screen, so I suspect possible corruption in
the character set, wherever in ROS or the display card it is held.

I've tried changing the country setting on the display card, to no
avail. I've also tried typing out the alphabet and copying the display
to the printer, but I think the print head is gummed up.

So, my first two questions are:

1. Can anybody tell me which card the character set is held on? None
of the manuals that I've looked at provide that info.

2. Can anybody direct me to a pdf copy of the user manual and/or the
service manual for the 5103?

Here's a link to my thread on the VCF, with pictures:
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?58583-IBM-5110-with-5114-drive-amp-5103-printer=467901#post467901

Thanks!