[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
On 9/13/06, M@ Bourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: he wouldn't elaborate to much on it but it seemed to be pretty much that, he did also mention you'll be able to see/monitor all threads running and kill them etc, as well as open up cf more and see what exactly is happening under the hood and what you'll be able to tell from it Java 5 lets you do this (JConsole). We have to do this with Tomcat some times... it seems once you giveTomcat some memory, it really doesn't like giving it back until you make it! This could point us in the direction of future releases of CF running on Java5 ormaybe evenJava 6 (which should be released soon). Leads into another interesting idea of attaching a Java debugger to the VM, but unless it is done like JSP is, you wont be able to step through the CF code (I know WebMacro can't be done like that). Maybe that isone direction that could be explored... its late and I really have to stop day dreaming. It probably has been explored and found to not be feasable Shane --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] step debugging in CFML with FusionDebug (was RE: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?)
Shane, you can indeed "attach a debugger" to CFMX (using Eclipse, as Haikal Saadh requested yesterday). That's exactly what FusionDebug is (fusiondebug.com). No, it's not free, but it's because as you hint CFMX is not "done like JSPs", so the company (Intergral) had to go through some hoops to get it all working. Still, for less than 300 US (with an additional 10%discount if you use CFCOMMUNITY as a code), it is indeed the very interactive debugging that many have long wanted. I do realize that there are many who don't think much of step debuggers at all. Let's not open that discussion here. For more on FusionDebug, as well as my take on why people should be interested (and back and forth comments from others who don't care for debuggers, and my rebuttal of 13 benefits of it over using CFDUMP/CFOUTPUT), see my (currently 3-part) series of blog entries at: http://carehart.org/blog/client/index.cfm/fusiondebug /charlie http://www.carehart.org/blog/ From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Shane FarmerSent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 9:14 AMTo: cfaussie@googlegroups.comSubject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? On 9/13/06, M@ Bourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: he wouldn't elaborate to much on it but it seemed to be pretty much that, he did also mention you'll be able to see/monitor all threads running and kill them etc, as well as open up cf more and see what exactly is happening under the hood and what you'll be able to tell from it Java 5 lets you do this (JConsole). We have to do this with Tomcat some times... it seems once you giveTomcat some memory, it really doesn't like giving it back until you make it! This could point us in the direction of future releases of CF running on Java5 ormaybe evenJava 6 (which should be released soon). Leads into another interesting idea of attaching a Java debugger to the VM, but unless it is done like JSP is, you wont be able to step through the CF code (I know WebMacro can't be done like that). Maybe that isone direction that could be explored... its late and I really have to stop day dreaming. It probably has been explored and found to not be feasable Shane --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
to tie these comments back to the thread title, I really hope that this is more than some lame thread-watching tool. I'm continually impressed with VisualStudio.NET's debugging. breakpoints, line-by-line code execution, watching variables - anywhere in the code - even being able to drill down thru complex datasets or child-of-child-of-child objects. and before ppl say that ASP.NET and CF work differently, they're actually a lot similar than you'd expect. Ya gotta admit - for all their faults and failings, Microsoft makes damn decent developer tools. For years SQLServer's Enterprise Mgr/QueryAnalyser was *the* standard set. the db tools in VS.NET are even better (for coders, not necesarily DBA's) Where's the ColdFusion IDE that does that? I sure hope it's comming with either CF8 or Studio9 (or whatever Flash+Dreamwaever will be bundled with). I appreciate CFEclipse and Mark and Rob's efforts but I want more. Sure, you can get close by adding other plug-ins to Eclipse (QuantumDB, etc) but both in key areas (eg debugging) and refinements, there's still lots of catch-up (I admit source control is an area VS.NET loses on but unlike debugging, that can be worked around). And why the heck is it left to a bunch of hard-working open-source developers to create an IDE for a commercial prodct? What's the parent company doing - sitting on it's hands? Macromedia, Adobe - both companies that make a living creating IDE's... wot? they don't know how to do it? The official IDE is *still* Homesite. It seems it comes down CF market share. Return on investment. But what about belief in one's stable of products and provide the tools to use them? does that have value? If there is a new CF IDE comming out from Adobe soon, I just hope it's the bees-knees. With exellent in-editor debugging. I expect nothing less. It is, after all, the standard the competition is at. I wait with abated breath... On 9/13/06, Shane Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/13/06, M@ Bourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: he wouldn't elaborate to much on it but it seemed to be pretty much that, he did also mention you'll be able to see/monitor all threads running and kill them etc, as well as open up cf more and see what exactly is happening under the hood and what you'll be able to tell from it Java 5 lets you do this (JConsole). We have to do this with Tomcat some times... it seems once you give Tomcat some memory, it really doesn't like giving it back until you make it! This could point us in the direction of future releases of CF running on Java 5 or maybe even Java 6 (which should be released soon). Leads into another interesting idea of attaching a Java debugger to the VM, but unless it is done like JSP is, you wont be able to step through the CF code (I know WebMacro can't be done like that). Maybe that is one direction that could be explored... its late and I really have to stop day dreaming. It probably has been explored and found to not be feasable Shane --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
just to be clear here - four points: Adobe CF (and BD for that matter) is a commercial product, not opensource. the CF marketshare is too small/fragile to leave support of the platform (tools) to outside sources... for a commercial product (why do I care? if the tools are inadequate, no one will want to use it) Adobe (and Macromedia before) make IDE's for a living. However (AFAIK) only New Atlanta have given any support to Mark Drew and Rob Rohan for CFEclipse. IMHO, the comparison of ASP.NET IDE's and CF's is more valid than with PHP or Ruby. They both create a revenue stream for the parent company, ensuring (hopefully) it's longevity. or is the CF community comfortable with this situation? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
I don't want to sound like a broken record, but since it's unclear if Barry has seen or will see the note I'd sent an hour or so before his, I'll say again that there is indeed interactive step debugging for CFML now, in FusionDebug, albeit it's not from Adobe and it's not for free (though it is based on Eclipse). The question of whether Adobe should provide such instead is a whole other discussion, of course, some of which you've addressed below and your later note. Just want to make sure that those calling for debugging know that it is indeed now available. /charlie http://www.carehart.org/blog/ -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barry Beattie Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 6:39 PM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? to tie these comments back to the thread title, I really hope that this is more than some lame thread-watching tool. I'm continually impressed with VisualStudio.NET's debugging. breakpoints, line-by-line code execution, watching variables - anywhere in the code - even being able to drill down thru complex datasets or child-of-child-of-child objects. and before ppl say that ASP.NET and CF work differently, they're actually a lot similar than you'd expect. Ya gotta admit - for all their faults and failings, Microsoft makes damn decent developer tools. For years SQLServer's Enterprise Mgr/QueryAnalyser was *the* standard set. the db tools in VS.NET are even better (for coders, not necesarily DBA's) Where's the ColdFusion IDE that does that? I sure hope it's comming with either CF8 or Studio9 (or whatever Flash+Dreamwaever will be bundled with). I appreciate CFEclipse and Mark and Rob's efforts but I want more. Sure, you can get close by adding other plug-ins to Eclipse (QuantumDB, etc) but both in key areas (eg debugging) and refinements, there's still lots of catch-up (I admit source control is an area VS.NET loses on but unlike debugging, that can be worked around). And why the heck is it left to a bunch of hard-working open-source developers to create an IDE for a commercial prodct? What's the parent company doing - sitting on it's hands? Macromedia, Adobe - both companies that make a living creating IDE's... wot? they don't know how to do it? The official IDE is *still* Homesite. It seems it comes down CF market share. Return on investment. But what about belief in one's stable of products and provide the tools to use them? does that have value? If there is a new CF IDE comming out from Adobe soon, I just hope it's the bees-knees. With exellent in-editor debugging. I expect nothing less. It is, after all, the standard the competition is at. I wait with abated breath... On 9/13/06, Shane Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/13/06, M@ Bourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: he wouldn't elaborate to much on it but it seemed to be pretty much that, he did also mention you'll be able to see/monitor all threads running and kill them etc, as well as open up cf more and see what exactly is happening under the hood and what you'll be able to tell from it Java 5 lets you do this (JConsole). We have to do this with Tomcat some times... it seems once you give Tomcat some memory, it really doesn't like giving it back until you make it! This could point us in the direction of future releases of CF running on Java 5 or maybe even Java 6 (which should be released soon). Leads into another interesting idea of attaching a Java debugger to the VM, but unless it is done like JSP is, you wont be able to step through the CF code (I know WebMacro can't be done like that). Maybe that is one direction that could be explored... its late and I really have to stop day dreaming. It probably has been explored and found to not be feasable Shane --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
thanx Charlie, I did see the post but too late. I will definately give it a whirl when I reach a hiatus in my work later today. I read some pearls of wisdom somewhere tho, that may also apply to, ahem, ColdFusion IDE's. As a commercial product, you can also take consolation that it will indeed work as advertised and if it doesn't that there will be a company behind it to help support, improve, and evangelize it. couldn't have said it better me'self. Joel: Railo, yes but surprised how far they've got since I last looked and astounded by the existance of others On 9/14/06, Charlie Arehart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't want to sound like a broken record, but since it's unclear if Barry has seen or will see the note I'd sent an hour or so before his, I'll say again that there is indeed interactive step debugging for CFML now, in FusionDebug, albeit it's not from Adobe and it's not for free (though it is based on Eclipse). The question of whether Adobe should provide such instead is a whole other discussion, of course, some of which you've addressed below and your later note. Just want to make sure that those calling for debugging know that it is indeed now available. /charlie http://www.carehart.org/blog/ -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barry Beattie Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 6:39 PM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? to tie these comments back to the thread title, I really hope that this is more than some lame thread-watching tool. I'm continually impressed with VisualStudio.NET's debugging. breakpoints, line-by-line code execution, watching variables - anywhere in the code - even being able to drill down thru complex datasets or child-of-child-of-child objects. and before ppl say that ASP.NET and CF work differently, they're actually a lot similar than you'd expect. Ya gotta admit - for all their faults and failings, Microsoft makes damn decent developer tools. For years SQLServer's Enterprise Mgr/QueryAnalyser was *the* standard set. the db tools in VS.NET are even better (for coders, not necesarily DBA's) Where's the ColdFusion IDE that does that? I sure hope it's comming with either CF8 or Studio9 (or whatever Flash+Dreamwaever will be bundled with). I appreciate CFEclipse and Mark and Rob's efforts but I want more. Sure, you can get close by adding other plug-ins to Eclipse (QuantumDB, etc) but both in key areas (eg debugging) and refinements, there's still lots of catch-up (I admit source control is an area VS.NET loses on but unlike debugging, that can be worked around). And why the heck is it left to a bunch of hard-working open-source developers to create an IDE for a commercial prodct? What's the parent company doing - sitting on it's hands? Macromedia, Adobe - both companies that make a living creating IDE's... wot? they don't know how to do it? The official IDE is *still* Homesite. It seems it comes down CF market share. Return on investment. But what about belief in one's stable of products and provide the tools to use them? does that have value? If there is a new CF IDE comming out from Adobe soon, I just hope it's the bees-knees. With exellent in-editor debugging. I expect nothing less. It is, after all, the standard the competition is at. I wait with abated breath... On 9/13/06, Shane Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/13/06, M@ Bourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: he wouldn't elaborate to much on it but it seemed to be pretty much that, he did also mention you'll be able to see/monitor all threads running and kill them etc, as well as open up cf more and see what exactly is happening under the hood and what you'll be able to tell from it Java 5 lets you do this (JConsole). We have to do this with Tomcat some times... it seems once you give Tomcat some memory, it really doesn't like giving it back until you make it! This could point us in the direction of future releases of CF running on Java 5 or maybe even Java 6 (which should be released soon). Leads into another interesting idea of attaching a Java debugger to the VM, but unless it is done like JSP is, you wont be able to step through the CF code (I know WebMacro can't be done like that). Maybe that is one direction that could be explored... its late and I really have to stop day dreaming. It probably has been explored and found to not be feasable Shane --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
I thought Adobe's support for CFEclipse was pretty common knowledge - what about all the CFEclipse plugins they've distributed with 702 for starters? It got a lot of coverage at webDu with both Dean Harmon and Rob Rohan there... __ Robin Hilliard On 14/09/2006, at 10:07 AM, Barry Beattie wrote: Adobe (and Macromedia before) make IDE's for a living. However (AFAIK) only New Atlanta have given any support to Mark Drew and Rob Rohan for CFEclipse. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Given that a number companies are now giving away, for free, theirpropriety products for limited use, when is Adobe going to jump on the bandwagon with JRun and Coldfusion? Well, actually I currently know ofonly one application server that's now free: the IBM WebSphereApplication Server Community Edition, but number of database vendorsare doing it: IBM DB2, Oracle, Microsoft. What Adobe's position on this?Ben said they are going to pretty much every Ajax function there is and giving away cd's. if the cd's are full versions or not I didn't ask. He couldn't talk to much on cf 8 just yet but said (as we have heard before) most new info on it will come at Max The server debugging sounded really exciting though.M@ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
M@, are you referring to interactive step debugging? Or something else? I'd just not heard of any plans for Adobe to do step debugging, so just curious what you may have heard. In the meantime, for those interested, I have started a series of entries on the interactive step debugger from Intergral, FusionDebug: http://carehart.org/blog/client/index.cfm/fusiondebug /charlie http://www.carehart.org/blog/ From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of M@ BourkeSent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 11:32 AMTo: cfaussie@googlegroups.comSubject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? Given that a number companies are now giving away, for free, theirpropriety products for limited use, when is Adobe going to jump on the bandwagon with JRun and Coldfusion? Well, actually I currently know ofonly one application server that's now free: the IBM WebSphereApplication Server Community Edition, but number of database vendorsare doing it: IBM DB2, Oracle, Microsoft. What Adobe's position on this?Ben said they are going to pretty much every Ajax function there is and giving away cd's. if the cd's are full versions or not I didn't ask. He couldn't talk to much on cf 8 just yet but said (as we have heard before) most new info on it will come at Max The server debugging sounded really exciting though.M@ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
I meet Ben once.. he wasa 6ft tall, arms like tree trunks andhair as red as fire, he bespoken with harmony in his voice he-be,and when he stared at you, it felt as if the devil be watchin ya, it did. He affectionately referred to me as weird little man and i remember his words fondly... could you stop humping my leg, you weird little man. (Sorry, i figured since this topic has degraded into mindless dribble, i'd throw in my 2c to close it out maybe? ) heh On 9/13/06, Barry Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hi M@ Ben said they are going to pretty much every Ajax function there is and giving away cd's. so, if ppl at gatherings are interested in Ajax, they're obviouslyinterested in building web applications per se, yes? That's one attackthrust I suppose. Anything else?So... did the Magic Forta say anything else? c'mon, you can tell us. give us the gossip - no one else will know...b-- Regards,Scott Barneshttp://www.mossyblog.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
On 9/12/06, Charlie Arehart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: M@, are you referring to interactive step debugging? Or something else? I'd just not heard of any plans for Adobe to do step debugging, so just curious what you may have heard. Hi Charlie good to hear from a fellow long time BD user, he wouldn't elaborate to much on it but it seemed to be pretty much that, he did also mention you'll be able to see/monitor all threads running and kill them etc, as well as open up cf more and see what exactly is happening under the hood and what you'll be able to tell from it M@PS: he talked very fast and was the only person (in my life time) who has managed to have ever kept my concentration, my brain usually runs to fast and loses concentration on slow speakers, everyone commented on how fast he spoke, but I found it to be nice and smooth --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
On 9/12/06, Scott Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I meet Ben once.. he wasa 6ft tall, arms like tree trunks andhair as red as fire, he bespoken with harmony in his voice he-be,and when he stared at you, it felt as if the devil be watchin ya, it did. He affectionately referred to me as weird little man and i remember his words fondly... could you stop humping my leg, you weird little man. (Sorry, i figured since this topic has degraded into mindless dribble, i'd throw in my 2c to close it out maybe? ) hehHi scott (old fellow drinker pal)I to offered to hump his leg, he informed us that he can't let out secrets and has only ever done that after being offered large amounts of alcohol. I was planning on offering him some pints at the local but he had to shoot off to the airport to fly to Boston which was good of him to think his whole England stoppage was simply to attend our user group which we invited him to. M@ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
On 9/13/06, M@ Bourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Given that a number companies are now giving away, for free, their propriety products for limited use, when is Adobe going to jump on the bandwagon with JRun and Coldfusion? Well, actually I currently know of only one application server that's now free: the IBM WebSphere Application Server Community Edition, but number of database vendors are doing it: IBM DB2, Oracle, Microsoft. What Adobe's position on this? Ben said they are going to pretty much every Ajax function there is and giving away cd's. if the cd's are full versions or not I didn't ask. So they are going to release a free limited use CF like FDS Express? Chris -- Chris Velevitch Manager - Sydney Flash Platform Developers Group m: 0415 469 095 www.flashdev.org.au --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Its true.. I sit here daily thinking about how life in CF/FLEX programming was so damn sweet. Now days, i spend most of my time in meetings, talking about what I'd like to do with the two brands under my charge, yet can't quite execute them due to some crap about governance or red tape here and there. So, i continue on my week, simply talking and discussing things that have no outcome or cost benefit realisation. Its funny at times, i have roughly around $20million in projects that I'm in charge of, but they are simply virtual - ie nothing yet been done. It feels like Dilbert most days, I go I've come up with a great piece of software, but first check out the box it comes in.. it has holograms, and and bright colors etc... and then dilbert goes But sir.. we haven't yet created the software then i'd have to go Have i not shown you the box. Life was much simpler being a programmer, you had a rule book and you did the doing... being a manager, you tend to have to delegate the doing and hope the doing gets done and when it is done you turn and go Is that it?...thats what i just signed off 10k for? ... man, i'd like to grab the CFAUSSIE crew in on this, get them to do the job(s) and buy all bigscreen tv's with money left over!!! I rant... The humour in this one post is - As i typed, I had my Outlook spring two meeting reminders, turns out i'm double booked... dear god, i am going to snap soon ;) hehe. Scott Out. Working in the Govt has taught me one thing, Accountability is like a Unicorn, I hear it exists and its magical, but yet to see it first hand. On 9/13/06, Barry Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: good on yer, M@ he did mention a lot more print advertising as well as event advertising etc I'd be very keen to see cf8 before stepping away from itencouragement at last!I hope the knobs at Adobe realise some of the best advertising isfree: next time an Adobe bigwig gives an interview to tech press, CF gets an honerable mention when the names Flash, Flex, LiveCycle, etcare rattled off...cheersbarry.bPS: Give up, Barnes. No one takes you seriously anymore now thatyou've moved into the realm of pointy-haired types...with _nothing_ to do with web solutions(just joking!)-- Regards,Scott Barneshttp://www.mossyblog.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
.NET isn't so bad to be honest? the only thing that i find a bit disconcerting about it, is what could I use it for given that Microsoft are a bit sketchy as to what the future of .NET 2.0 apps will look like with the upcomingVista Regime? I'm more inclined to start asking questions about browsers? given that more and more people are shifting into alternative agents - much like Apollo/WinFX equation is hinting at? I mean who where would of said that you could write thick ware applications (eg: FLEX, WinFX etc), in the same way you write HTML4-5 years ago? What does the next 4-5 years hold? Where does the browser start loosing its browser capability and start becoming a plugin unto itself? As for example, Apollo has a traditional browser client inside itself, but can be used only *when* needed? so the concept has been inverted? Coldfusion? It has a place but i'm thinking it needs to strengthen its marriage with the FLEX portion of the equation more so (that and LiveCycle) as this will help give it more of a concrete footing as UI continues to dominate the must-have space. On 9/11/06, cfgroupie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know what they would say thats why I would LIKE to see whattheir thoughts on this topic would be! If its been done to death, then obiviously no one is listening ANDsince this is a new company, perhaps they will now.I agree I would love to get on with it I have already installed the.NET framework(sad sad sad day today). The fact that at our last CFUG meeting seriously broughtup issues with Training, Development and Licencing I would say it maybe done to death but there are still programmers out there whom AREconcernedwith this topic. I truely hope not as I really would like to get into FLEX!J.-- Regards,Scott Barneshttp://www.mossyblog.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Oh, Microsoft have implemented XAML into IE 7 long long before we clued in onto that fact. You have to be a mug to not realise that the whole Web application concept threatened the very existance of an Operating Systems actual purpose as it was living out the hybrid dream of thin-ware deployment. They tried ever so hard to make ends meet by throwing the No Touch Deployment concept back in the .NET 1.0 days, but sadly the .exe portion of the equation made a lot of IT Security experts quite nervous (which one would expect). So don't be suprised if you will be able to run a Powerpoint presentation via Internet Explorer and yet haven't bought Office 12 at all? (the SDk's will be ingrained into the Vista Operating System). They are after the same dream we had with HTML, download instruction and assemble using part internal and external components :) Gotta love this whole Web 3.0 thing (i say 3.0 as it trumps the 2.0 concept me thinkith). On 9/12/06, Andrew Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Scott, That is something that is being discussed here too. .Net has some very good advantages, as does Java and unlike Java it has evolved into something that can be considered a serious contender in client/server applications with the introduction of XAML. And with the advent of Apollo around the corner, it does beg the question as where it leaves the market for a browser. M$ have included XAML into IE7.0, but that is limiting to everyone else who doesn't use IE7.0, but XAML can be designed as a standalone web application leaving the browser out of the equation, but is platform dependant at the moment, where Apollo will not be. The browser has always been the interpreter for the current and past web applications, but it is really falling behind fast on the way technology is heading. So Scott it does beg the question, what are we in for in the next few years. Senior Coldfusion Developer Aegeon Pty. Ltd. www.aegeon.com.au Phone:+613 8676 4223 Mobile : 0404 998 273 -- Regards,Scott Barneshttp://www.mossyblog.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
On 9/10/06, Chad Renando [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On that note, can that then please get Google not to say Did you mean: coldfusion whenever you search for the term, or get wikipedia to acknowledge the software (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion)? They do (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ColdFusion) Cold fusion NEQ ColdFusion -- Lindsay Evans who wanted to get in on the thread too :p --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Chad, CF is called Coldfusion and not Cold fusion Cold Fusion is a science term for nuclear fusion:-) Senior Coldfusion Developer Aegeon Pty. Ltd. www.aegeon.com.au Phone: +613 8676 4223 Mobile: 0404 998 273 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
On that note, can that then please get Google not to say Did you mean: coldfusion whenever you search for the term, or get wikipedia to acknowledge the software (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion)? Chad who wanted to get his name in on this monster thread On 9/9/06, Scott Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The main reason everyone should buy into Coldfusion is because its name sounds much cooler then the rest. EOS. (End Of Story) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
On 9/8/06, Haikal Saadh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter Tilbrook wrote: Yeah but JBoss isn't supported for ColdFusion yet (it will be with Scorpio though). I didn't realise that.. I thought because you could deploy CF as an ear,you could put in on any ol' server. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't mean you can't. You may just have to make some funky config changes (never tried it personally) but it means Adobe wont give you support for setup issues if you run in that configuration. I think a better option for Adobe would allow developers to package a WAR or EAR that includes the CF application server in it in some sort of single site mode that will allow, and only allow, the site deployed with it to work. Maybe as a sourceless MX7 distribution type thing. Then you could drop it into Tomcat, JBoss, Resin etc and then you have a site. Charge the client an extra (appropriately lowered) license fee and of they go. Just a thought. Shane --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Sorry Jeremy, but what on earth would you expect them to say after reading this thread? IMHO it hasn't covered anything that hasn't already been done to death (over and over) on this list in the last six or so years. Yes it would be nice if ColdFusion were free and world governments legislated to outlaw anything that threatened a ColdFusion developer's job security. Since this isn't the case, let's just get on with it! __ Robin Hilliard On 08/09/2006, at 11:20 PM, cfgroupie wrote: Seeing that this thread is by far the biggest we have had in CFAussie(close tender would be scott having it out with *another programmer hehehe*). I would REALLY like to see Adobe's take on this situation. Anyoneanyone.bueller... Jeremy --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Glad you took that in the spirit it was intended - I thought about that email last night cringed about being too harsh... No offence intended :) Just came across this this morning - http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2006/09/07/JRuby-guys - maybe we'll be able to run ruby code in our CF applications at some point in the future? On 9/7/06, Barry Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/7/06, Mark Stanton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OMG - another free software consipracy - quick get the DOJ onto it! Did you know Adobe (formerly Macromedia) have done a devious deal with those evil communists at the Apache Foundation to secretly bundle the Xerces parser and Axis web services engine with every copy of Coldfusion? Go on Adobe, top that! Bleh - Acrobat Reader owz you. ROTFLMAO!! you're a funny [EMAIL PROTECTED], Mark! I stand happily ridiculed. thanx for cheering up my day. I needed it cheers b -- Mark Stanton Gruden Pty Ltd http://www.gruden.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
and I apologise to all and sundary for accidently making this the longest and most obtuce thread on cfaussie. Perhaps I'm a bit too protective of the fact that I like what I do and the tools I use and it irks me to throw away good ideas for bad. http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Java cheers b On 9/8/06, Mark Stanton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Glad you took that in the spirit it was intended - I thought about that email last night cringed about being too harsh... No offence intended :) Just came across this this morning - http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2006/09/07/JRuby-guys - maybe we'll be able to run ruby code in our CF applications at some point in the future? On 9/7/06, Barry Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/7/06, Mark Stanton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OMG - another free software consipracy - quick get the DOJ onto it! Did you know Adobe (formerly Macromedia) have done a devious deal with those evil communists at the Apache Foundation to secretly bundle the Xerces parser and Axis web services engine with every copy of Coldfusion? Go on Adobe, top that! Bleh - Acrobat Reader owz you. ROTFLMAO!! you're a funny [EMAIL PROTECTED], Mark! I stand happily ridiculed. thanx for cheering up my day. I needed it cheers b -- Mark Stanton Gruden Pty Ltd http://www.gruden.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Barry, Everyone on this list would agree with about what they love here too. And we just had a discussion here about Ruby, it might be gaining ground but our clients are blue chip companies, and one of our developers said the same thing that Dale did say awhile ago. You can't put Ruby or RonR to a board of decision makers without extremely good reason to do so. Senior Coldfusion Developer Aegeon Pty. Ltd. www.aegeon.com.au Phone: +613 8676 4223 Mobile: 0404 998 273 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
No need to apologise Barry. For the most part this has been a healthy debate about CF and its competitors. Anyone who relies on CF for their living should be aware of its competitors and how they compare to CF (especially how they compare to CF in the eyes of the bean counters and decision makers). When I was interviewed for my current job, the Director of ICT told me that the executives had asked her why we weren't using .Net. She told me there was no reason for us to go to .Net but if we HAD to did I know of a way to get CF to work with .Net. (I told her about BD and she was very happy). There was and still is absolutely no reason for us to abandon CF for .Net but the execs had heard the hype about it and wanted to jump on the bandwagon. It's always been and will continue to be tough to sell CF against the mega $ might of MS. With Ruby and Rails, it's now looking like it might be another tough fight for CF :( --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Nathan, Have to agree as a developer we should all not only be aware of our competitors but adapt where we can or even leverage if need be. As far as RonR it's just a fancy term for MVC, ORM and Spring rolled into one, but hey that's my opinion. Senior Coldfusion Developer Aegeon Pty. Ltd. www.aegeon.com.au Phone: +613 8676 4223 Mobile: 0404 998 273 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
On 9/6/06, M@ Bourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be of interest to get his take on this discussion. Any questions you want me to ask him feel free to post in here. and I'll ask him. Given that a number companies are now giving away, for free, their propriety products for limited use, when is Adobe going to jump on the bandwagon with JRun and Coldfusion? Well, actually I currently know of only one application server that's now free: the IBM WebSphere Application Server Community Edition, but number of database vendors are doing it: IBM DB2, Oracle, Microsoft. What Adobe's position on this? Chris -- Chris Velevitch Manager - Sydney Flash Platform Developers Group m: 0415 469 095 www.flashdev.org.au --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
I think the Java AS and database market has become a bit commodotised. They all do more or less the same thing. I don't see why anyone would pay for JRun... JBoss does the same thing for free. CF, on the other hand, is a different kettle of fish... The code in that uncyclopedia link posted earlier is actually not too far from the truth, as far as the stuffing around you need to do with to get most java technology working. CF makes using java technology (and in turn, software development) easy. If Adobe gave away CF for free, where would they get money from? Chris Velevitch wrote: On 9/6/06, M@ Bourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be of interest to get his take on this discussion. Any questions you want me to ask him feel free to post in here. and I'll ask him. Given that a number companies are now giving away, for free, their propriety products for limited use, when is Adobe going to jump on the bandwagon with JRun and Coldfusion? Well, actually I currently know of only one application server that's now free: the IBM WebSphere Application Server Community Edition, but number of database vendors are doing it: IBM DB2, Oracle, Microsoft. What Adobe's position on this? Chris -- Haikal Saadh Applications Programmer ICT Resources, TALSS QUT Kelvin Grove --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
On 08/09/06, Haikal Saadh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the Java AS and database market has become a bit commodotised.They all do more or less the same thing. I don't see why anyone wouldpay for JRun... JBoss does the same thing for free. Yeah but JBoss isn't supported for ColdFusion yet (it will be with Scorpio though). --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
On 9/8/06, Haikal Saadh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: software development) easy. If Adobe gave away CF for free, where would they get money from? I guess the same way that IBM, Oracle and Microsoft are making their money. Chris -- Chris Velevitch Manager - Sydney Flash Platform Developers Group m: 0415 469 095 www.flashdev.org.au --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
On 9/6/06, M@ Bourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's very interesting, considering that according to his website he'll be in London next Tuesday. Lets hope so Chris, as I work roughly 40km's from London :) I'll even email ya some photo's if you'd like It would be of interest to get his take on this discussion. Chris -- Chris Velevitch Manager - Sydney Flash Platform Developers Group m: 0415 469 095 www.flashdev.org.au --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Forget your mega budget push from Microsoft, I'm still astounded/disgusted in the amount of hype that surounds the RubyOnRails camp. did you know that 37Signals has done a deal with Apple so the next version of OS-X comming out will have RonR included on every copy, ready to install and run? sure you can still get it off the website, but think of the kudos. A (kind of broken) version of Ruby already ships with OSX. If you're installing ROR on a mac you've got a couple of extra stages of dicking around to complete the install. I've been looking into ROR in regards to some of my price sensitive clients for a while now. The overwhleming majority of Australian business is SME, and its always an uphill battle to sell Bob on the cost of CFHosting, or god forbid if Bob's application requirements mean that a shared/relatively cheap hosting environment won't really work out all that well. I'd love to work with enterprise level clients who are keen to roll out robust solutions with a budget where the spend money to save money axiom holds water. But its oh so rare to find that sort of gig lately. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Barry, How did you know that we use Powerbuilder and Lotus notes!! I cracked up when I read that cause thats exactly the path we are going. We(company) will be moving all of that to .NET in the years to come. Sean very interesting point on th RoR that it will be shipping with OSX. Very interesting. Jeremy --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
For your SME clients - stupid cheap CF hosting - It is meant to be quite good too, if you do a google search on it - http://www.hostingatoz.com/ Just to throw that in. Mark On 9/7/06, Sean Bucklar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Forget your mega budget push from Microsoft, I'm still astounded/disgusted in the amount of hype that surounds the RubyOnRails camp. did you know that 37Signals has done a deal with Apple so the next version of OS-X comming out will have RonR included on every copy, ready to install and run? sure you can still get it off the website, but think of the kudos. A (kind of broken) version of Ruby already ships with OSX. If you're installing ROR on a mac you've got a couple of extra stages of dicking around to complete the install. I've been looking into ROR in regards to some of my price sensitive clients for a while now. The overwhleming majority of Australian business is SME, and its always an uphill battle to sell Bob on the cost of CFHosting, or god forbid if Bob's application requirements mean that a shared/relatively cheap hosting environment won't really work out all that well. I'd love to work with enterprise level clients who are keen to roll out robust solutions with a budget where the spend money to save money axiom holds water. But its oh so rare to find that sort of gig lately. -- E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: www.compoundtheory.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Forget your mega budget push from Microsoft, I'm still astounded/disgusted in the amount of hype that surounds the RubyOnRails camp. did you know that 37Signals has done a deal with Apple so the next version of OS-X comming out will have RonR included on every copy, ready to install and run? sure you can still get it off the website, but think of the kudos. OMG - another free software consipracy - quick get the DOJ onto it! Did you know Adobe (formerly Macromedia) have done a devious deal with those evil communists at the Apache Foundation to secretly bundle the Xerces parser and Axis web services engine with every copy of Coldfusion? Go on Adobe, top that! Bleh - Acrobat Reader owz you. -- Mark Stanton Gruden Pty Ltd http://www.gruden.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
I agree with Jeremy on this one too. It may be well and good to promote a strong grassroots love for CF in the developer community, but with a complete absence of visibility to the decision making tier of businesses (a group which is almost mutually exclusive to the developer community), it gets very hard for the developers to argue the case for this 'unknown' solution, and senior management just doubt the developers strong opinions (or worse, start to consider them zealots), as its seems to senior management that the developers suggestions are in complete disconnect to what senior management can see of the market. I don't know if advertising is the solution, and I accept that its very expensive, but something needs to be done to raise CFs visibility to the non developer community. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
I've said it before and will say it againif your company gets to the top 200 companies on the ASX microsoft will be so far up your ass that you'll think you've got a second tonguethere whole marketing strategyis to get as many of the top 200 companies as possible, then they'll advertise in the magezines that the smaller companies read with ads that say stuff like 85% of the top 200 companies in australia use microsoft then all the dumb managers think $hit everyone is using this thing, I got no idea what it is but we should scrap what we use now even though I have no idea what we use now and just use this product that everyone is using Macrobe should simply do the same, a part from the whole top 200 companies MS also targets government hard ass. M@ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Ben Forta is coming to my work next tuesday for a visit, maybe they need more ben forta's (As he can only be in on place at one time) and have them continually going around the companies.M@ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
An Ad i found in seek this morning. This is what I have to deal with everyday at work. A financially secure, ASX listed company who provides IT services to organisations of all sizes across the Asia Pacific region, is seeking an experienced ColdFusion/.Net Developer. Working in a team self-described as a crazy, technical bunch of people, who know their stuff and have a good sense of humour; the ColdFusion/.Net Developer will need to be a positive person who thinks laterally and has excellent problem solving and people skills. While 90% of current development is written in ColdFusion with a SQL Server 2000 backend, it is envisaged that in 6 to 12 months time most applications will have been converted to .Net2. Because of this, candidate's with both ColdFusion and ASP.net skills are encouraged to apply (candidates with both skills are preferred). If you want to work for a company who values their culture and promotes a social environment with employee benefits then apply now or call Joel Richards at Talent2 in our Brisbane office on (07) 3295 7410 quoting reference number: 13569 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
aye and I've *heard* that Talent2 have some chunky modules to deilver for a large brisbane-based university _THAT_USED_TO_RUN_COLDFUSION_!!! somedays it feels like being a pixie about 2 inches high, jumping up and down waving arms everywhere shouting (at pixie volume) use coldfusion.. it's great! still waiting for the great Adobe CF promotional jugganaught to kick in... On 9/5/06, cfgroupie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: An Ad i found in seek this morning. This is what I have to deal with everyday at work. A financially secure, ASX listed company who provides IT services to organisations of all sizes across the Asia Pacific region, is seeking an experienced ColdFusion/.Net Developer. Working in a team self-described as a crazy, technical bunch of people, who know their stuff and have a good sense of humour; the ColdFusion/.Net Developer will need to be a positive person who thinks laterally and has excellent problem solving and people skills. While 90% of current development is written in ColdFusion with a SQL Server 2000 backend, it is envisaged that in 6 to 12 months time most applications will have been converted to .Net2. Because of this, candidate's with both ColdFusion and ASP.net skills are encouraged to apply (candidates with both skills are preferred). If you want to work for a company who values their culture and promotes a social environment with employee benefits then apply now or call Joel Richards at Talent2 in our Brisbane office on (07) 3295 7410 quoting reference number: 13569 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
It's the same old argument, no developers to fill the role then looks look at what the market offers where there is plenty of skill. Senior Coldfusion Developer Aegeon Pty. Ltd. www.aegeon.com.au Phone: +613 8676 4223 Mobile: 0404 998 273 -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of cfgroupie Sent: Tuesday, 5 September 2006 8:09 AM To: cfaussie Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? An Ad i found in seek this morning. This is what I have to deal with everyday at work. A financially secure, ASX listed company who provides IT services to organisations of all sizes across the Asia Pacific region, is seeking an experienced ColdFusion/.Net Developer. Working in a team self-described as a crazy, technical bunch of people, who know their stuff and have a good sense of humour; the ColdFusion/.Net Developer will need to be a positive person who thinks laterally and has excellent problem solving and people skills. While 90% of current development is written in ColdFusion with a SQL Server 2000 backend, it is envisaged that in 6 to 12 months time most applications will have been converted to .Net2. Because of this, candidate's with both ColdFusion and ASP.net skills are encouraged to apply (candidates with both skills are preferred). If you want to work for a company who values their culture and promotes a social environment with employee benefits then apply now or call Joel Richards at Talent2 in our Brisbane office on (07) 3295 7410 quoting reference number: 13569 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
but there's plenty of available Java programmers and they didn't go there. number one feature I want for ColdFusion 8: [EMAIL PROTECTED] the features, I want decent, widespread marketing. More than just to the converted. Get over this hump (struggle getting consideration for contracts, struggle getting enough developers) by refusing to be the best kept secret. Forget your mega budget push from Microsoft, I'm still astounded/disgusted in the amount of hype that surounds the RubyOnRails camp. did you know that 37Signals has done a deal with Apple so the next version of OS-X comming out will have RonR included on every copy, ready to install and run? sure you can still get it off the website, but think of the kudos. Go on Adobe, top that! On 9/5/06, Andrew Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's the same old argument, no developers to fill the role then looks look at what the market offers where there is plenty of skill. Senior Coldfusion Developer Aegeon Pty. Ltd. www.aegeon.com.au Phone: +613 8676 4223 Mobile: 0404 998 273 -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of cfgroupie Sent: Tuesday, 5 September 2006 8:09 AM To: cfaussie Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? An Ad i found in seek this morning. This is what I have to deal with everyday at work. A financially secure, ASX listed company who provides IT services to organisations of all sizes across the Asia Pacific region, is seeking an experienced ColdFusion/.Net Developer. Working in a team self-described as a crazy, technical bunch of people, who know their stuff and have a good sense of humour; the ColdFusion/.Net Developer will need to be a positive person who thinks laterally and has excellent problem solving and people skills. While 90% of current development is written in ColdFusion with a SQL Server 2000 backend, it is envisaged that in 6 to 12 months time most applications will have been converted to .Net2. Because of this, candidate's with both ColdFusion and ASP.net skills are encouraged to apply (candidates with both skills are preferred). If you want to work for a company who values their culture and promotes a social environment with employee benefits then apply now or call Joel Richards at Talent2 in our Brisbane office on (07) 3295 7410 quoting reference number: 13569 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
So on one hand you want it to be free, (not to mention others complaining that $40/month is too much for shared CF hosting and taking their business offshore) on the other hand you want Adobe to spend a few hundred thousand dollars at least advertising ColdFusion in ANZ (and that is a femto-nano-drop in the ocean as far as IT advertising budgets go, you'd need 1-2 million for a noticeable campaign - and it would require a few hundred CF Enterprise license purchases in ANZ to break even). You're a hard man to please. Speaking out of school, when I was at Macromedia ANZ years ago we experimented with print and online advertising for CF and JRun. Despite our best efforts the ROI on big ads in paper and online banner adds was pathetic. The main benefit I saw in the ads was as cosmic background radiation for existing users to reassure them that the platform was ok compared with other vendors (majority of whom were charging 40K/cpu/year!) who had cash to (almost literally) burn. IMHO The best thing to spend the money on is community (UG, Webdu funding for example) and improving the actual software, and let the solutions the community build sell more licenses. (And BTW the Ruby interpreter has been included in OSX for ages, adding 10s of Kb of RoR framework code isn't too much of an ask, compared to adding 270Mb or so of ColdFusion install - would that really be practical). Yes, QUT seems to be leaving CF, cest la FUD/Hype (and as I have said many times RoR is a nice framework, CF and Rubyists can still be friends). Elsewhere this is the most successful release of ColdFusion ever. __ Robin Hilliard Director - RocketBoots Pty Ltd Consulting . Software Licensing . Recruitment . Training http://www.rocketboots.com.au For schedule/availability call Pamela Higgins: w+61 7 5451 0362 m+61 419 677 151 f+61 3 9923 6261 e[EMAIL PROTECTED] or Direct: m+61 418 414 341 e[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Worldwide Adobe Licensing - Volume discounts now start at one point *** On 05/09/2006, at 10:20 AM, Barry Beattie wrote: but there's plenty of available Java programmers and they didn't go there. number one feature I want for ColdFusion 8: [EMAIL PROTECTED] the features, I want decent, widespread marketing. More than just to the converted. Get over this hump (struggle getting consideration for contracts, struggle getting enough developers) by refusing to be the best kept secret. Forget your mega budget push from Microsoft, I'm still astounded/disgusted in the amount of hype that surounds the RubyOnRails camp. did you know that 37Signals has done a deal with Apple so the next version of OS-X comming out will have RonR included on every copy, ready to install and run? sure you can still get it off the website, but think of the kudos. Go on Adobe, top that! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
well, Robin, I'll bow to your experiance and position in the industry and gladly accept the view that what's happening to Jeremy and I is mearly an aberation (caused by different circumstances). Others people's milage obviously vary to this. and if you're comfrortable with the current marketing efforts and growth of the product here in Australia then that will do me. I'm still concerned where new blood will come from but I only mentioned the Apple/37Signals connection because it's one of those simple and cheap/free gestures (and in reality, no big deal) that may help to raise a products profile world-wide. Hype on hype perhaps. But can you understand why it sometimes feels like an underground resistance movement, a secret covenant? For the record, I'm not interested in CF being $free. More important to my motovation in using and evangelising the product is value for money. Jeremy's situation seems trapped in a MS lock-in and percieved value regarding TOC. In my current circumstances I'm looking for worth in the product that may have been overlooked in decisions - something I can leverage. Gateways might be, flashforms aren't. Remoting was for a while. I've always appreciated good ideas so it's sad when they get washed away. And if the thing is worth it, then it's worth fighting for. b --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Rails won't be the last framework for ruby, just like any language it'll eventually get flooded with crap and poor code. I couldn't imagine many companies scrapping a technology for ruby just yet, sure some will but its a bit to pioneering, sure its an old language but its more the frame work your choosing, I can't see a pure OO language eating into cf to much, cf is big as its simple for beginners --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
if they are whinging about the cost of multiple licenses why not challenge with the cost of multi-skilled developers. no doubt its best to have developers with multiple skills but in a global skills shortage (of all languages) is it good to have people very experienced *commercially* with cf become very *commercially* experienced with another language Ruby in your case. negative being that you'll now have devs that can easily leave and get a job in 2 languages instead of one, and if you want new devs to hit the ground running then they'll need to be really experienced at both languages (because of all your old legacy code), which will mean that due to a global skills shortage you'll be paying a fair bit more then say just a dev experienced in CF or just Ruby or what ever. now you might only be paying $10k extra per dev (depending on where in the world you are) but the thing is new CF licences would work out a lot cheaper. Barry are you government? if so I'd stick with adobe technology solely for its experience with digitising documents and making them portable (this is a lot more then standard pdf's). as everything continues becomes digital M@ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Ben Forta has written an wrapper around image/J. Andrew Mercer wrote: What I would like to see from Adobe take from .Net is the amount of objects that have been exposed in to the developer. That is, I would like to see more JAVA objects exposed. For example, I would like to see a CFZIP tag, and how about CFIMAGE or CFSLEEP. There is pletty of stuff in the JVM - it just need to be made easier to access. -- Haikal Saadh Applications Programmer ICT Resources, TALSS QUT Kelvin Grove --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
On Wed, Aug 30, 2006 at 01:58:58PM +1000, Dale Fraser wrote: When presenting different technologies to the Board here, the first question the chairman asked. Q: Who makes ColdFusion A: Adobe Now if I had been pitching PHP. Q: Who makes PHP A: Ahh, Not sure a bunch of guys, but you shouldn't care! A little research is a wonderful thing. You can 'pitch' PHP like that if you want it not to be taken seriously, or you can point out that it's an open source development, that many of the big guns both contribute to and make use of open source software, and that support contracts for PHP are available. http://www.zend.com/products/zend_core/support http://www.zend.com/company Yeah, right I'm not sure what type of business you work for who don't care about these things, but we are a publicly listed company and our management care. I'm sure that companies like IBM care as well. The decision to use and support open source doesn't seem to have caused their downfall yet. Maybe it's a weakness for your company not to have considered a viable and stable development option? As both a developer and member of the public (read: potential informed investor), knowing that your company's board is not well-informed is not reassuring. I'm not saying that PHP is the right answer for you, and I don't like to think of myself as an evangelist. I do think that blatantly ignoring the open source model, which has time and time again proven itself to be worthy of contemplation, is a mistake. -T --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
I'm sure Andrew is aware of that, and that there are custom tags around for zip and sleep as well. But just because these things exist does not mean that Adobe should not be expanding the native CF tag library to include these features. I for one would be generally much happier to use a CF tag in preference to a third party tag - even if Ben Forta's name is signed on it. And isn't that is what CF is largely being touted as... A way for us non-java programmers to tap into and deliver 'java' based systems... Cheers, Brett B) Haikal Saadh wrote: Ben Forta has written an wrapper around image/J. Andrew Mercer wrote: What I would like to see from Adobe take from .Net is the amount of objects that have been exposed in to the developer. That is, I would like to see more JAVA objects exposed. For example, I would like to see a CFZIP tag, and how about CFIMAGE or CFSLEEP. There is pletty of stuff in the JVM - it just need to be made easier to access. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
I think you should read the response about 3 more times. I didn't mention ignoring open source options, just ones with no major support. We extensively use Java, we previously used PHP and Perl and it wasn't suitable for our application. With that said, I personally like PHP, the language and syntax. But with our past experiences with both PHP Java Coldfusion has been a godsend. The Board can now see the fruits of the Coldfusion decision and are 100% happy. There is no going back for us. Regards Dale Fraser http://dale.fraser.id.au -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Kerr Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 6:49 PM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? On Wed, Aug 30, 2006 at 01:58:58PM +1000, Dale Fraser wrote: When presenting different technologies to the Board here, the first question the chairman asked. Q: Who makes ColdFusion A: Adobe Now if I had been pitching PHP. Q: Who makes PHP A: Ahh, Not sure a bunch of guys, but you shouldn't care! A little research is a wonderful thing. You can 'pitch' PHP like that if you want it not to be taken seriously, or you can point out that it's an open source development, that many of the big guns both contribute to and make use of open source software, and that support contracts for PHP are available. http://www.zend.com/products/zend_core/support http://www.zend.com/company Yeah, right I'm not sure what type of business you work for who don't care about these things, but we are a publicly listed company and our management care. I'm sure that companies like IBM care as well. The decision to use and support open source doesn't seem to have caused their downfall yet. Maybe it's a weakness for your company not to have considered a viable and stable development option? As both a developer and member of the public (read: potential informed investor), knowing that your company's board is not well-informed is not reassuring. I'm not saying that PHP is the right answer for you, and I don't like to think of myself as an evangelist. I do think that blatantly ignoring the open source model, which has time and time again proven itself to be worthy of contemplation, is a mistake. -T --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Andrew, I think your missing something. What I would like to see from Adobe take from .Net is the amount of objects that have been exposed in to the developer. All java objects are accessible, you just need to access them. That is, I would like to see more JAVA objects exposed. For example, I would like to see a CFZIP tag, and how about CFIMAGE or CFSLEEP. There is pletty of stuff in the JVM - it just need to be made easier to access. There are cfcs which do all three of these things with java calls already, the zip one is free the image one is very good and inexpensive and the CFSLEEP one is a one line call to java. ZIP: http://www.newsight.de/ Image: http://www.alagad.com/index.cfm/name-aic Sleep: cfset thread = CreateObject(java, java.lang.Thread)cfset thread.sleep(5000) 5 second sleep. Regards Dale Fraser http://dale.fraser.id.au From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfaussie@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Mercer Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 6:24 PM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? The thing I like best about CF over .Net, is it has been consistent for the last 9-10 years - since the CF tags (after db tags) For example, data base access - data access methods have come and gone, odbc, ole, oleDB, ole.Net , ADO ..., but for the CF developer it has always been CFQUERY. Allaire/MM/Adobe have been tweaking things under the hood, but my applications continue to work without modifications. What I would like to see from Adobe take from .Net is the amount of objects that have been exposed in to the developer. That is, I would like to see more JAVA objects exposed. For example, I would like to see a CFZIP tag, and how about CFIMAGE or CFSLEEP. There is pletty of stuff in the JVM - it just need to be made easier to access. I would also like to see ADOBE release a free version of CF with the only restriction being the number of concurrent hits - say 5. That would encourage more people to play with it at home and build up their skills. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Brett, You make a fine point, I wasn't sure if he wanted to access the java stuff or have Adobe provide more out of box tags. But I totally agree with you, this stuff is simple Zip, Sleep, Image Adobe should include it, they would be silly not to. Regards Dale Fraser http://dale.fraser.id.au -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brett Payne-Rhodes Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 8:00 PM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? I'm sure Andrew is aware of that, and that there are custom tags around for zip and sleep as well. But just because these things exist does not mean that Adobe should not be expanding the native CF tag library to include these features. I for one would be generally much happier to use a CF tag in preference to a third party tag - even if Ben Forta's name is signed on it. And isn't that is what CF is largely being touted as... A way for us non-java programmers to tap into and deliver 'java' based systems... Cheers, Brett B) Haikal Saadh wrote: Ben Forta has written an wrapper around image/J. Andrew Mercer wrote: What I would like to see from Adobe take from .Net is the amount of objects that have been exposed in to the developer. That is, I would like to see more JAVA objects exposed. For example, I would like to see a CFZIP tag, and how about CFIMAGE or CFSLEEP. There is pletty of stuff in the JVM - it just need to be made easier to access. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
After 11 years of CF I am prepared to let it all go.No explanation. Just tired of trying to defend it or find work without having to move hundreds of miles to places that get it. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Hi Barry, No time to read entire post, but you ever tried to fix or extend the rails framework if it doesn't do *exactly* what you want it to do? You might as well re-write it in CF in some cases. Hopefully I will get to read the whole thread tomorrow... My 2cShane p.s. If I gave $2 (or worth) instead of 2c, would that be tax deductible??? On 8/30/06, Barry Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: because of rapid development?- NOPE!: not compared against RubyOnRails, it seems. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
The main PHP engine is by Zend (http://www.zend.com). PHP 5 is getting close to the feel of Java moving it from just a RADlike language to a more powerful enterprise solution with PDF and charting being built into the engine with simple extension dll/so libraries. It also has a very strong developer comunity. I know that doesn't help your cause Barry, but the question was asked... On 8/30/06, Dale Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Name the company behind PHP.RegardsDale Fraserhttp://dale.fraser.id.au --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Dale, does this stop you from using MySQL databases? On 8/30/06, Dale Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see,But I picked them for my comment I wouldn't be jumping on any platform thatwasn't provided by a main stream player Thus, I don't know who provides PHP.RegardsDale Fraserhttp://dale.fraser.id.au --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
On 8/30/06, Steve Onnis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Correct me if I am wrong, but it would be very difficult to develop a .NETapplication using something as simple as notepad. There are some OK editors out there to do .NET coding in (all the editors for the MONO runtime in Linux, Dreamweaver etc) and you can use the free command line compilers for .NET. If you are a small business willing to comit to developing a .net application, you can sign up to be a Microsoft Empower partner for around $1000 and recieve an MSDN subscripction and copies of Windows Server, SQL Server and VS 2005 to use to make these products. Some interesting reading. I was thinking about going this way for my own company but I will be sticking with low cost PHP/MySQL for now... for now I tell you! https://partner.microsoft.com/global/40011351 Quote: Up to five (5) software licenses (for internal use): Microsoft Windows XP Microsoft Office XP (Premium or Developer Edition) or Microsoft Office 2003 Editions One (1) software license and up to five (5) Client Access Licenses (CALs) for: Microsoft Windows Server 2003 (Standard or Enterprise Edition) Microsoft Exchange 2003 Server (Standard or Enterprise Edition) Microsoft SQL Server 2005 (Standard or Enterprise Edition) Microsoft SQL Server 2000 (Standard or Enterprise Edition) Microsoft Office SharePoint Portal Server 2003 Development and Testing License: One (1) MSDN Premium Subscription Media Kit and five (5) user licenses** One (1) MSDN Premium Subscription Media Kit (DVD) Each MSDN Premium Subscription includes the full range of Microsoft Servers integrated server software, all Microsoft operating systems, Microsoft productivity products (Microsoft Office Developer Edition, Microsoft Project, FrontPage, Visio, and MapPoint), as well as access to SDKs, DDKs, and the MSDN Library. Each subscription also gives you priority access to new product releases, updates, and betas through the MSDN Downloads site. Five (5) licenses to Visual Studio 2005 Professional Edition. Up to five (5) users, concurrent with development and testing licenses provided with the MSDN Premium Subscription, may use Visual Studio 2005 Professional Edition. MSDN online managed support newsgroups (English only) Ask software, hardware, and related technology questions in the newsgroups supported by Microsoft support professionals. MSDN Online Concierge Trial (English only) This service helps you find articles and resources within MSDN. The service is available worldwide and provides real-time responses. ISV Advisory Service - 10 Hours This new phone-based consultative service helps you develop products using Microsoft technologies. Select from a broad range of services including ad hoc development advice, best practice recommendations, code samples, and limited technology architecture or product design reviews. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
yep - this is my point.Sure the sleep thing is simple, but ColdFusion is more aboutCFSLEEP time=5000 /On 8/30/06, Dale Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Brett, You make a fine point, I wasn't sure if he wanted to access the java stuffor have Adobe provide more out of box tags.But I totally agree with you, this stuff is simple Zip, Sleep, Image Adobeshould include it, they would be silly not to. RegardsDale Fraserhttp://dale.fraser.id.au-Original Message-From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfaussie@googlegroups.com] On BehalfOf Brett Payne-RhodesSent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 8:00 PMTo: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?I'm sure Andrew is aware of that, and that there are custom tags around forzip and sleep as well.But just because these things exist does not mean that Adobe should not be expanding the native CF tag library to include these features. I for onewould be generally much happier to use a CF tag in preference to a thirdparty tag - even if Ben Forta's name is signed on it.And isn't that is what CF is largely being touted as... A way for us non-java programmers to tap into and deliver 'java' based systems...Cheers,BrettB)Haikal Saadh wrote: Ben Forta has written an wrapper around image/J. Andrew Mercer wrote: What I would like to see from Adobe take from .Net is the amount of objects that have been exposed in to the developer. That is, I would like to see more JAVA objects exposed. For example, I would like to see a CFZIP tag, and how about CFIMAGE or CFSLEEP. There is pletty of stuff in the JVM - it just need to be made easier to access. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
cf_troll Personally, I thing Coldfusion is shit-house, period. /cf_troll tof On 8/30/06, Andrew Mercer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: yep - this is my point.Sure the sleep thing is simple, but ColdFusion is more aboutCFSLEEP time=5000 / On 8/30/06, Dale Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Brett,You make a fine point, I wasn't sure if he wanted to access the java stuff or have Adobe provide more out of box tags.But I totally agree with you, this stuff is simple Zip, Sleep, Image Adobeshould include it, they would be silly not to. RegardsDale Fraser http://dale.fraser.id.au-Original Message-From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto: cfaussie@googlegroups.com] On BehalfOf Brett Payne-RhodesSent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 8:00 PM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?I'm sure Andrew is aware of that, and that there are custom tags around for zip and sleep as well.But just because these things exist does not mean that Adobe should not be expanding the native CF tag library to include these features. I for onewould be generally much happier to use a CF tag in preference to a third party tag - even if Ben Forta's name is signed on it.And isn't that is what CF is largely being touted as... A way for us non-java programmers to tap into and deliver 'java' based systems...Cheers, BrettB)Haikal Saadh wrote: Ben Forta has written an wrapper around image/J. Andrew Mercer wrote: What I would like to see from Adobe take from .Net is the amount of objects that have been exposed in to the developer. That is, I would like to see more JAVA objects exposed. For example, I would like to see a CFZIP tag, and how about CFIMAGE or CFSLEEP. There is pletty of stuff in the JVM - it just need to be made easier to access. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
On 30/08/2006, at 3:24 PM, Mark Stanton wrote: Hi Andrew I still see RoR the same as ModleGlue. Here is the rails API documentation: http://api.rubyonrails.com/ If you take the ColdSpring, MG, Reactor and CFAjax + big chunks of the CF language (where CF is abstracting away tricky stuff like queries, mail, includes, custom tags, etc..) you'll end up with something like Rails. A lot of the things in the rails docco (e.g. controllers, view helpers) were also mentioned in my presso at Webdu. One point that no-one has mentioned yet: CF runs as Java bytecode, on a VM which both Sun and IBM have spent 100s of millions of development dollars optimising over the last decade. This was the whole point of the MX release. Ruby still runs in it's own proprietary interpreter (hmm, kind of like... CF = 5) which is a fair bit slower (although you can write high performance code in any language with appropriate caching etc, and most of the 37Signals RoR apps at least are very fast). As I have stated publicly elsewhere I think Ruby is a great language (and it's use of mixins for it's libraries too), and RoR is a sensible web app framework, but there is no particular magic about it - all the RoR things can be done in CF and in fact are being done under the auspices of various existing CF frameworks, but the ever present CF cultural cringe factor tends to make the community think that somehow good patterns, frameworks etc only happen to other platforms... __ Robin Hilliard --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
but there is no particular magic about it - all the RoR things can be done in CF but Robin, the reverse of that is true too. - all the CF things can be done in RonR. Where's the product differentiation? and now, that includes remoting, which was one selling point I was using in flying the CF flag. Previously, remoting for Java or .NET from Macromedia was almost as expensive as a CF licence so it made sence to have your remoting back end as CF. I find it disquieting that WebOrb are giving remoting for Ruby away for nothing, making it open source to encourage the community to run with it. why _shouldn't_ that be such a big deal? look how far the Red5 ppl have come... RubyOnRails on one side. CF (with Model-glue:unity) on the other so far the strongest arguments for CF are the suggestions of Community support Vs mothership Adobe and that RonR is too new to find developers under every rock. is that all there is? I've beeen trying to use Flex as a trojan horse to sneak in CF (well, a CF7 upgrade): Adobe wants to make CF a first Class citizen for Flex how? where's the meat? only with the ability to map CFC's to AS classes? and how long before there's a Ruby wizard to cover that? Grant Straker presented (at a webDU) an interesting view about selling the Macromedia (at the time) Vision. Don't bore managers with irrelivant technical details, leverage what the company has done and where it was heading. Then, that made sence. But I see that vision fractured in the push by Adobe to reach out to all platforms. I'm stopping short in saying that Adobe should be actively protecting/restricting the AMF3 protocol to provide an advantage to their products like CF. I hate that heavy microsoft-type aproach. Instead, I'm asking what Adobe can learn from RonR? you and I both know of the turn-key app I was working on where it was written for CF7 standard - not enterprise, even if we could have really used the gateways. Bottom line: enterprise licence costs, no matter how hard things were juggled (partner prices, bulk licences, etc). there seems to be a nasty pro/anti open source debate that CF is caught up in yet again. Last time it was with PHP, but this time, the teeth seem sharper... so, compared to this latest onslaught, where's the compelling reasons? What will make me say, yeah, I can sell that... ? last point: Microsoft doesn't have to release a technology roadmap because everyone knows how the story goes: a two pronged attack starting at the file server on one side and the SOe and MSOffice on the other. From there it's Outlook, Exchange, SQLServer, Sharepoint, Project Server and whatever bloated overpriced product they've sucked ITO's into buying subscriptions for. but where's Adobe's roadmap? and more importantly, where's CF's place in it? Will people care if there's livecycle integration in CF? what else is there... that no one else has? It's time for those that say that the Emperor has magnificent clothes to state what @[EMAIL PROTECTED]@ colour they are... On 8/31/06, Robin Hilliard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 30/08/2006, at 3:24 PM, Mark Stanton wrote: Hi Andrew I still see RoR the same as ModleGlue. Here is the rails API documentation: http://api.rubyonrails.com/ If you take the ColdSpring, MG, Reactor and CFAjax + big chunks of the CF language (where CF is abstracting away tricky stuff like queries, mail, includes, custom tags, etc..) you'll end up with something like Rails. A lot of the things in the rails docco (e.g. controllers, view helpers) were also mentioned in my presso at Webdu. One point that no-one has mentioned yet: CF runs as Java bytecode, on a VM which both Sun and IBM have spent 100s of millions of development dollars optimising over the last decade. This was the whole point of the MX release. Ruby still runs in it's own proprietary interpreter (hmm, kind of like... CF = 5) which is a fair bit slower (although you can write high performance code in any language with appropriate caching etc, and most of the 37Signals RoR apps at least are very fast). As I have stated publicly elsewhere I think Ruby is a great language (and it's use of mixins for it's libraries too), and RoR is a sensible web app framework, but there is no particular magic about it - all the RoR things can be done in CF and in fact are being done under the auspices of various existing CF frameworks, but the ever present CF cultural cringe factor tends to make the community think that somehow good patterns, frameworks etc only happen to other platforms... __ Robin Hilliard --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Yes, It does, we use MS SQL. We also have client software c++ Microsoft Visual c++ We have no problems getting people for these technologies, not to say we would with others but things work well now. Next move for us is Flex 2, hopefully just calling our existing cfc objects. Regards Dale Fraser http://dale.fraser.id.au From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfaussie@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Shane Farmer Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 10:07 PM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? Dale, does this stop you from using MySQL databases? On 8/30/06, Dale Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see, But I picked them for my comment I wouldn't be jumping on any platform that wasn't provided by a main stream player Thus, I don't know who provides PHP. Regards Dale Fraser http://dale.fraser.id.au --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Personally I prefer the object model. Id use it over tags if everything could work that way. Regards Dale Fraser http://dale.fraser.id.au From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfaussie@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Mercer Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 10:40 PM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? yep - this is my point. Sure the sleep thing is simple, but ColdFusion is more about CFSLEEP time=5000 / On 8/30/06, Dale Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Brett, You make a fine point, I wasn't sure if he wanted to access the java stuff or have Adobe provide more out of box tags. But I totally agree with you, this stuff is simple Zip, Sleep, Image Adobe should include it, they would be silly not to. Regards Dale Fraser http://dale.fraser.id.au -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfaussie@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Brett Payne-Rhodes Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 8:00 PM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? I'm sure Andrew is aware of that, and that there are custom tags around for zip and sleep as well. But just because these things exist does not mean that Adobe should not be expanding the native CF tag library to include these features. I for one would be generally much happier to use a CF tag in preference to a third party tag - even if Ben Forta's name is signed on it. And isn't that is what CF is largely being touted as... A way for us non-java programmers to tap into and deliver 'java' based systems... Cheers, Brett B) Haikal Saadh wrote: Ben Forta has written an wrapper around image/J. Andrew Mercer wrote: What I would like to see from Adobe take from .Net is the amount of objects that have been exposed in to the developer. That is, I would like to see more JAVA objects exposed. For example, I would like to see a CFZIP tag, and how about CFIMAGE or CFSLEEP. There is pletty of stuff in the JVM - it just need to be made easier to access. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
On 31/08/2006, at 2:10 AM, Barry Beattie wrote: but there is no particular magic about it - all the RoR things can be done in CF but Robin, the reverse of that is true too. - all the CF things can be done in RonR. Where's the product differentiation? Barry, I was talking about the frameworks, not Ruby vs CFML - and I think there's been plenty of responses on this thread that include things CF can do that RoR cannot (esp. Java based and all that entails - I take it that QUT aren't a J2EE house). But if you're looking for me or anyone else to come up with a RoR is a dud and CF is god's own because of X, it's not going to happen. If you can live with the constraints of RoR or CF, then at the end of the day a skilled development team will make more difference than the platform you choose. I'm personally curious to see how you go as a RoR developer - I think this discussion would have a bit more meat too it if a current RoR developer were involved. __ Robin Hilliard --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Couldnt' have said it better my self. The Emperor colthes are grey hahahahaha. J. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Anyone know of a good example of RoR 'scaffolding' code I can look at? From:"Barry Beattie" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To:cfaussie@googlegroups.comTo:cfaussie@googlegroups.comSubject:[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?Date:Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:51:55 +1000 Barry, I was talking about the frameworks, not Ruby vs CFML - and I think there's been plenty of responses on this thread that include things CF can do that RoR cannot (esp. Java based and all that entails - I take it that QUT aren't a J2EE house).we will be well on the way by next year, thanx to the introduction ofBlackboard but we'll be using Java and JSP to hook into the Bb API.All but a couple of CF servers will left to fester away, waiting to beput out of their misery. Of the remaining ones, I'm hard pressed toget enough reasons to upgrade to CF7.But if you're looking for me or anyone else to come up with a RoR is a dud and CF is god's own because of X, it's not going to happen.If you can live with the constraints of RoR or CF, then at the end of the day a skilled development team will make more difference than the platform you choose.we've already started to blow away the JSP/Java cobwebs to supportthis change. But what you're saying is that there is no compellingreason to use CF. If we wanted RAD, then RonR is just as legit andcheaper! I'm personally curious to see how you go as a RoR developer -nah, I don't like the syntax. I don't like PHP for the same reasons.If I have to spend days typing stuff out I might as well enjoy it. I think this discussion would have a bit more meat too it if a current RoR developer were involved.from this end the discussion points are being driven from a staffCF'er now converted to RonR. did you see Sean Corfields blog post thattouched on this a while back? and the response of former CF'ers nowusing RonR? Sure, your right. the stuff is just a hammer. But we alsoknow that developers don't always make the platform choices forprojects.I give up. I'll shut up now. I must be the only person on-list thatthinks RubyOnRails could make a serious dent to CF's market share. andthat the current feature set - for the price and compared to otherplatforms - could do a lot more to entice projects to buy into CF. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
And when Windows Vista comes along, MS Studio changes the rules again as all objects will be xaml and a new learning curve begins again. Senior Coldfusion Developer Aegeon Pty. Ltd. www.aegeon.com.au Phone:+613 8676 4223 Mobile: 0404 998 273 From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrew Mercer Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 6:24 PM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? The thing I like best about CF over .Net, is it has been consistent for the last 9-10 years - since the CF tags (after db tags) For example, data base access - data access methods have come and gone, odbc, ole, oleDB, ole.Net , ADO ..., but for the CF developer it has always been CFQUERY. Allaire/MM/Adobe have been tweaking things under the hood, but my applications continue to work without modifications. What I would like to see from Adobe take from .Net is the amount of objects that have been exposed in to the developer. That is, I would like to see more JAVA objects exposed. For example, I would like to see a CFZIP tag, and how about CFIMAGE or CFSLEEP. There is pletty of stuff in the JVM - it just need to be made easier to access. I would also like to see ADOBE release a free version of CF with the only restriction being the number of concurrent hits - say 5. That would encourage more people to play with it at home and build up their skills. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Thanks Robin, I guess you put it better than I could have. Mark Stanton touched it, and the point is as Robin said all languages can achieve the same thing. I was interested to know why RoR was any different to CF + MG:U or even MachII + Reactor. At the end of the day, scaffolding is supported in CF with a framework. God even Mark has written transfer to help with that. At the end of the day as Dale said, it's the people who make the decision that you need to convince and with the right ammo CF can be put forward as a serious contender. But lets ask one thing, where is RoR being used commercially? Senior Coldfusion Developer Aegeon Pty. Ltd. www.aegeon.com.au Phone: +613 8676 4223 Mobile: 0404 998 273 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
37Signals (who originally made rails) uses it for all of their apps, I believe. They've stated that campfire and basecamp use rails... the rest of their stuff probably does as well. Andrew Scott wrote: Thanks Robin, I guess you put it better than I could have. Mark Stanton touched it, and the point is as Robin said all languages can achieve the same thing. I was interested to know why RoR was any different to CF + MG:U or even MachII + Reactor. At the end of the day, scaffolding is supported in CF with a framework. God even Mark has written transfer to help with that. At the end of the day as Dale said, it's the people who make the decision that you need to convince and with the right ammo CF can be put forward as a serious contender. But lets ask one thing, where is RoR being used commercially? Senior Coldfusion Developer Aegeon Pty. Ltd. www.aegeon.com.au Phone: +613 8676 4223 Mobile: 0404 998 273 -- Haikal Saadh Applications Programmer ICT Resources, TALSS QUT Kelvin Grove --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
From what I'm reading Barry - your argument comes down to one simple question - If RonR can pretty much do everything CF can do, and it's free - why would a company pay the extra dollars? Would the be correct? Mark On 8/31/06, Barry Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Barry, I was talking about the frameworks, not Ruby vs CFML - and I think there's been plenty of responses on this thread that include things CF can do that RoR cannot (esp. Java based and all that entails - I take it that QUT aren't a J2EE house). we will be well on the way by next year, thanx to the introduction of Blackboard but we'll be using Java and JSP to hook into the Bb API. All but a couple of CF servers will left to fester away, waiting to be put out of their misery. Of the remaining ones, I'm hard pressed to get enough reasons to upgrade to CF7. But if you're looking for me or anyone else to come up with a RoR is a dud and CF is god's own because of X, it's not going to happen. If you can live with the constraints of RoR or CF, then at the end of the day a skilled development team will make more difference than the platform you choose. we've already started to blow away the JSP/Java cobwebs to support this change. But what you're saying is that there is no compelling reason to use CF. If we wanted RAD, then RonR is just as legit and cheaper! I'm personally curious to see how you go as a RoR developer - nah, I don't like the syntax. I don't like PHP for the same reasons. If I have to spend days typing stuff out I might as well enjoy it. I think this discussion would have a bit more meat too it if a current RoR developer were involved. from this end the discussion points are being driven from a staff CF'er now converted to RonR. did you see Sean Corfields blog post that touched on this a while back? and the response of former CF'ers now using RonR? Sure, your right. the stuff is just a hammer. But we also know that developers don't always make the platform choices for projects. I give up. I'll shut up now. I must be the only person on-list that thinks RubyOnRails could make a serious dent to CF's market share. and that the current feature set - for the price and compared to other platforms - could do a lot more to entice projects to buy into CF. -- E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: www.compoundtheory.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
If RonR can pretty much do everything CF can do, and it's free - why would a company pay the extra dollars? well, that part of it sort-of evolved, but it's not the whole story if you factor in Jeremy's points of moving to .NET, and us with Java/JSP. and as a litmus test and leaving a direct comparison with RonR out of it, I'm still trying to get enough reasons to get 2 lousy boxes upgraded to CF7 to make my life easier - and failing. I was getting so desperate I was hoping for some Flash (Flex) UI to justify the need for remoting (and AMF3), but aparently you can get Flash remoting in Corn Flakes packets now-a-days I just hope CF8 has some must-haves in there On 8/31/06, Mark Mandel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From what I'm reading Barry - your argument comes down to one simple question - If RonR can pretty much do everything CF can do, and it's free - why would a company pay the extra dollars? Would the be correct? Mark On 8/31/06, Barry Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Barry, I was talking about the frameworks, not Ruby vs CFML - and I think there's been plenty of responses on this thread that include things CF can do that RoR cannot (esp. Java based and all that entails - I take it that QUT aren't a J2EE house). we will be well on the way by next year, thanx to the introduction of Blackboard but we'll be using Java and JSP to hook into the Bb API. All but a couple of CF servers will left to fester away, waiting to be put out of their misery. Of the remaining ones, I'm hard pressed to get enough reasons to upgrade to CF7. But if you're looking for me or anyone else to come up with a RoR is a dud and CF is god's own because of X, it's not going to happen. If you can live with the constraints of RoR or CF, then at the end of the day a skilled development team will make more difference than the platform you choose. we've already started to blow away the JSP/Java cobwebs to support this change. But what you're saying is that there is no compelling reason to use CF. If we wanted RAD, then RonR is just as legit and cheaper! I'm personally curious to see how you go as a RoR developer - nah, I don't like the syntax. I don't like PHP for the same reasons. If I have to spend days typing stuff out I might as well enjoy it. I think this discussion would have a bit more meat too it if a current RoR developer were involved. from this end the discussion points are being driven from a staff CF'er now converted to RonR. did you see Sean Corfields blog post that touched on this a while back? and the response of former CF'ers now using RonR? Sure, your right. the stuff is just a hammer. But we also know that developers don't always make the platform choices for projects. I give up. I'll shut up now. I must be the only person on-list that thinks RubyOnRails could make a serious dent to CF's market share. and that the current feature set - for the price and compared to other platforms - could do a lot more to entice projects to buy into CF. -- E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: www.compoundtheory.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
You know, something I was just thinking of now - Thinking 'corporate' style - the fact that CF is NOT open source means that if anything goes wrong with CF itself, you have somewhere to go where you are guarenteed service. Not the case with RoR. Or true of any OS software. Just a thought - but you bring up some valid points there Barry. Mark On 8/30/06, Barry Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: please forgive me if this comes across as trolling but I'm running out of ammo here in trying to keep the CF flag flying here's the question: Why Buy into CF? because of rapid development? - NOPE!: not compared against RubyOnRails, it seems. It's true against Java/JSP development or ASP.NET/C# but CF seems to be no longer the fastest pocket-rocket. because of built-in flash remoting, making it the most cost-effective way of supporting AMF3 for Flex2? - NOPE!: How much does WebORB for Rails cost?.. WebORB for Rails is an open source project. It is available free of charge under the GNU General Public License http://www.themidnightcoders.com/weborb/rubyonrails/faq.htm#howmuch (FYI: WebOrb is a company picking up where PHPAMF left off...) it has features like CFDOCUMENT? Verity? - NOPE!: some ppl (G'day Gareth!) found limitations with CFDocument real fast and switched to using the latest iText libraries natively. Ditto with Verity, replaced with Lucerne. CFREPORT? ... dunno, could never fly that as a solution. too limiting, no interest. FlashForms? ... no call for them really, especially now that Flex2 is out Gateways? ... could never float this as something meaningful. Either the systems were standard, not enterprise - or - the enterprise boxes were stuck on CF6.1 and it's not enough reason to upgrade. it's got a large, active, supportive community? ... I'd say yes compared to Java and .NET... but not against the evangellical RonR world, who seems to gain the strength of 10 because their platform is opensource. ... and everything they touch seems to turn to opensource So, keeping in mind CF8 in development... ... what could possibly entice ppl to buy into CF, either from scratch - or - upgrading from CF6.1? this is a serious ask of, not why CF people are where they are now, but how they can justify traveling down the CF road in the future. (maybe I'm gowing weary of the luddites here that won't upgrade the dwindling number of servers to CF7, the undermining pro-RubyOnRails camp here ... and that opensource WebOrb AMF3 news.. that's the last [EMAIL PROTECTED]@ straw...) -- E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: www.compoundtheory.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Besides the support issues, there is also a level of polish in CF that other languages don't have. Some points are:CF components are an access=remote away from being web servicesquery-of-queries custom tags - they may seem like a trivial feature but can make code incredibly intuitiveBlairOn 8/30/06, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Personally I havent got down with the RoR yet, so I'm not familiar with the ruby language.In terms of a Flex/CF setup there are a lot of benefits.Basically you got the weight of Adobe pushing this combination to enablequick deployment of apps.That includes documentation, examples, engineer feedback, new updates. That being said you must pay.I think I'll have to build a Flex/RoR app first before making an assessment.Regards,Bjorn SchultheissSenior Flash DeveloperQDC Technologies-Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfaussie@googlegroups.com] On BehalfOf Barry BeattieSent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 10:10 AM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.comSubject: [cfaussie] Why buy into CF?please forgive me if this comes across as trolling but I'm running out ofammo here in trying to keep the CF flag flying here's the question: Why Buy into CF?because of rapid development? - NOPE!: not compared against RubyOnRails, it seems. It's true againstJava/JSP development or ASP.NET/C# but CF seems to be no longer the fastestpocket-rocket.because of built-in flash remoting, making it the most cost-effective way ofsupporting AMF3 for Flex2? - NOPE!: How much does WebORB for Rails cost?.. WebORB for Rails is an open source project. It is available free of charge under the GNU GeneralPublic Licensehttp://www.themidnightcoders.com/weborb/rubyonrails/faq.htm#howmuch (FYI: WebOrb is a company picking up where PHPAMF left off...)it has features like CFDOCUMENT? Verity? - NOPE!: some ppl (G'day Gareth!) found limitations with CFDocument realfast and switched to using the latest iText libraries natively. Ditto with Verity, replaced with Lucerne.CFREPORT?... dunno, could never fly that as a solution. too limiting, no interest.FlashForms?... no call for them really, especially now that Flex2 is out Gateways? ... could never float this as something meaningful. Either the systems werestandard, not enterprise - or - the enterprise boxes were stuck on CF6.1 andit's not enough reason to upgrade.it's got a large, active, supportive community? ... I'd say yes compared to Java and .NET... but not against theevangellical RonR world, who seems to gain the strength of 10 because theirplatform is opensource. ... and everything they touch seems to turn to opensourceSo, keeping in mind CF8 in development.. what could possibly entice ppl to buy into CF, either from scratch- or - upgrading from CF6.1?this is a serious ask of, not why CF people are where they are now, but how they can justify traveling down the CF road in the future.(maybe I'm gowing weary of the luddites here that won't upgrade thedwindling number of servers to CF7, the undermining pro-RubyOnRails camphere ... and that opensource WebOrb AMF3 news.. that's the last [EMAIL PROTECTED]@ straw...) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
There are lots of reasons. It doesn't just give you web stuff it gives you a lot more, like PDF, report writing, Flash / Flex hooks It leverages the power of Java without the complexity. Compared to pulling in lots of different OS / Free solutions to achieve the same result, you are better off with CF. Are these OS options going to be supported long term. Can you find developers who now all these little technologies and can work for you. Were is the support / training for these products. Most likely some of these OS options will grow up and be contenders, but personally I wouldn't be jumping on any platform that wasn't provided by a main stream player. Which in my opinion leaves only three options. 1. Adobe - Coldfusion / Flex 2. Microsoft - .NET 3. Sun - Java Regards Dale Fraser http://dale.fraser.id.au -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bjorn Schultheiss Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 10:36 AM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Why buy into CF? Personally I havent got down with the RoR yet, so I'm not familiar with the ruby language. In terms of a Flex/CF setup there are a lot of benefits. Basically you got the weight of Adobe pushing this combination to enable quick deployment of apps. That includes documentation, examples, engineer feedback, new updates. That being said you must pay. I think I'll have to build a Flex/RoR app first before making an assessment. Regards, Bjorn Schultheiss Senior Flash Developer QDC Technologies -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barry Beattie Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 10:10 AM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Why buy into CF? please forgive me if this comes across as trolling but I'm running out of ammo here in trying to keep the CF flag flying here's the question: Why Buy into CF? because of rapid development? - NOPE!: not compared against RubyOnRails, it seems. It's true against Java/JSP development or ASP.NET/C# but CF seems to be no longer the fastest pocket-rocket. because of built-in flash remoting, making it the most cost-effective way of supporting AMF3 for Flex2? - NOPE!: How much does WebORB for Rails cost?.. WebORB for Rails is an open source project. It is available free of charge under the GNU General Public License http://www.themidnightcoders.com/weborb/rubyonrails/faq.htm#howmuch (FYI: WebOrb is a company picking up where PHPAMF left off...) it has features like CFDOCUMENT? Verity? - NOPE!: some ppl (G'day Gareth!) found limitations with CFDocument real fast and switched to using the latest iText libraries natively. Ditto with Verity, replaced with Lucerne. CFREPORT? ... dunno, could never fly that as a solution. too limiting, no interest. FlashForms? ... no call for them really, especially now that Flex2 is out Gateways? ... could never float this as something meaningful. Either the systems were standard, not enterprise - or - the enterprise boxes were stuck on CF6.1 and it's not enough reason to upgrade. it's got a large, active, supportive community? ... I'd say yes compared to Java and .NET... but not against the evangellical RonR world, who seems to gain the strength of 10 because their platform is opensource. ... and everything they touch seems to turn to opensource So, keeping in mind CF8 in development... ... what could possibly entice ppl to buy into CF, either from scratch - or - upgrading from CF6.1? this is a serious ask of, not why CF people are where they are now, but how they can justify traveling down the CF road in the future. (maybe I'm gowing weary of the luddites here that won't upgrade the dwindling number of servers to CF7, the undermining pro-RubyOnRails camp here ... and that opensource WebOrb AMF3 news.. that's the last [EMAIL PROTECTED]@ straw...) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Name the company behind PHP. Regards Dale Fraser http://dale.fraser.id.au -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rod Higgins Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 11:01 AM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? No php? Hmm ... - Original Message - From: Dale Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 10:46 AM Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? There are lots of reasons. It doesn't just give you web stuff it gives you a lot more, like PDF, report writing, Flash / Flex hooks It leverages the power of Java without the complexity. Compared to pulling in lots of different OS / Free solutions to achieve the same result, you are better off with CF. Are these OS options going to be supported long term. Can you find developers who now all these little technologies and can work for you. Were is the support / training for these products. Most likely some of these OS options will grow up and be contenders, but personally I wouldn't be jumping on any platform that wasn't provided by a main stream player. Which in my opinion leaves only three options. 1. Adobe - Coldfusion / Flex 2. Microsoft - .NET 3. Sun - Java Regards Dale Fraser http://dale.fraser.id.au -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bjorn Schultheiss Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 10:36 AM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Why buy into CF? Personally I havent got down with the RoR yet, so I'm not familiar with the ruby language. In terms of a Flex/CF setup there are a lot of benefits. Basically you got the weight of Adobe pushing this combination to enable quick deployment of apps. That includes documentation, examples, engineer feedback, new updates. That being said you must pay. I think I'll have to build a Flex/RoR app first before making an assessment. Regards, Bjorn Schultheiss Senior Flash Developer QDC Technologies -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barry Beattie Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 10:10 AM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Why buy into CF? please forgive me if this comes across as trolling but I'm running out of ammo here in trying to keep the CF flag flying here's the question: Why Buy into CF? because of rapid development? - NOPE!: not compared against RubyOnRails, it seems. It's true against Java/JSP development or ASP.NET/C# but CF seems to be no longer the fastest pocket-rocket. because of built-in flash remoting, making it the most cost-effective way of supporting AMF3 for Flex2? - NOPE!: How much does WebORB for Rails cost?.. WebORB for Rails is an open source project. It is available free of charge under the GNU General Public License http://www.themidnightcoders.com/weborb/rubyonrails/faq.htm#howmuch (FYI: WebOrb is a company picking up where PHPAMF left off...) it has features like CFDOCUMENT? Verity? - NOPE!: some ppl (G'day Gareth!) found limitations with CFDocument real fast and switched to using the latest iText libraries natively. Ditto with Verity, replaced with Lucerne. CFREPORT? ... dunno, could never fly that as a solution. too limiting, no interest. FlashForms? ... no call for them really, especially now that Flex2 is out Gateways? ... could never float this as something meaningful. Either the systems were standard, not enterprise - or - the enterprise boxes were stuck on CF6.1 and it's not enough reason to upgrade. it's got a large, active, supportive community? ... I'd say yes compared to Java and .NET... but not against the evangellical RonR world, who seems to gain the strength of 10 because their platform is opensource. ... and everything they touch seems to turn to opensource So, keeping in mind CF8 in development... ... what could possibly entice ppl to buy into CF, either from scratch - or - upgrading from CF6.1? this is a serious ask of, not why CF people are where they are now, but how they can justify traveling down the CF road in the future. (maybe I'm gowing weary of the luddites here that won't upgrade the dwindling number of servers to CF7, the undermining pro-RubyOnRails camp here ... and that opensource WebOrb AMF3 news.. that's the last [EMAIL PROTECTED]@ straw...) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
that's my point RonR is following on from the lessons learned from PHP DHH is the new Rasmus Lerdorf my guess is that RonR is (deliberatly or not) stealing ground from PHP, because of cost and opensource. it's just that it seems it's doing the same to CF. On 8/30/06, Dale Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Name the company behind PHP. Regards Dale Fraser http://dale.fraser.id.au -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rod Higgins Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 11:01 AM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? No php? Hmm ... - Original Message - From: Dale Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 10:46 AM Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? There are lots of reasons. It doesn't just give you web stuff it gives you a lot more, like PDF, report writing, Flash / Flex hooks It leverages the power of Java without the complexity. Compared to pulling in lots of different OS / Free solutions to achieve the same result, you are better off with CF. Are these OS options going to be supported long term. Can you find developers who now all these little technologies and can work for you. Were is the support / training for these products. Most likely some of these OS options will grow up and be contenders, but personally I wouldn't be jumping on any platform that wasn't provided by a main stream player. Which in my opinion leaves only three options. 1. Adobe - Coldfusion / Flex 2. Microsoft - .NET 3. Sun - Java Regards Dale Fraser http://dale.fraser.id.au -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bjorn Schultheiss Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 10:36 AM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Why buy into CF? Personally I havent got down with the RoR yet, so I'm not familiar with the ruby language. In terms of a Flex/CF setup there are a lot of benefits. Basically you got the weight of Adobe pushing this combination to enable quick deployment of apps. That includes documentation, examples, engineer feedback, new updates. That being said you must pay. I think I'll have to build a Flex/RoR app first before making an assessment. Regards, Bjorn Schultheiss Senior Flash Developer QDC Technologies -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barry Beattie Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 10:10 AM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Why buy into CF? please forgive me if this comes across as trolling but I'm running out of ammo here in trying to keep the CF flag flying here's the question: Why Buy into CF? because of rapid development? - NOPE!: not compared against RubyOnRails, it seems. It's true against Java/JSP development or ASP.NET/C# but CF seems to be no longer the fastest pocket-rocket. because of built-in flash remoting, making it the most cost-effective way of supporting AMF3 for Flex2? - NOPE!: How much does WebORB for Rails cost?.. WebORB for Rails is an open source project. It is available free of charge under the GNU General Public License http://www.themidnightcoders.com/weborb/rubyonrails/faq.htm#howmuch (FYI: WebOrb is a company picking up where PHPAMF left off...) it has features like CFDOCUMENT? Verity? - NOPE!: some ppl (G'day Gareth!) found limitations with CFDocument real fast and switched to using the latest iText libraries natively. Ditto with Verity, replaced with Lucerne. CFREPORT? ... dunno, could never fly that as a solution. too limiting, no interest. FlashForms? ... no call for them really, especially now that Flex2 is out Gateways? ... could never float this as something meaningful. Either the systems were standard, not enterprise - or - the enterprise boxes were stuck on CF6.1 and it's not enough reason to upgrade. it's got a large, active, supportive community? ... I'd say yes compared to Java and .NET... but not against the evangellical RonR world, who seems to gain the strength of 10 because their platform is opensource. ... and everything they touch seems to turn to opensource So, keeping in mind CF8 in development... ... what could possibly entice ppl to buy into CF, either from scratch - or - upgrading from CF6.1? this is a serious ask of, not why CF people are where they are now, but how they can justify traveling down the CF road in the future. (maybe I'm gowing weary of the luddites here that won't upgrade the dwindling number of servers to CF7, the undermining pro-RubyOnRails camp here ... and that opensource WebOrb AMF3 news.. that's the last [EMAIL PROTECTED]@ straw
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
No sorry, my point was Java is a little different to .Net and CF as is php. Java code is open you can do what ever you like with it even rewrite the core code in each release if you wish. CF and .Net are not open at all so it's strange that you included Java in with CF and .Net. my .02 Name the company behind PHP. Regards Dale Fraser http://dale.fraser.id.au -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rod Higgins Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 11:01 AM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? No php? Hmm ... - Original Message - From: Dale Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 10:46 AM Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? There are lots of reasons. It doesn't just give you web stuff it gives you a lot more, like PDF, report writing, Flash / Flex hooks It leverages the power of Java without the complexity. Compared to pulling in lots of different OS / Free solutions to achieve the same result, you are better off with CF. Are these OS options going to be supported long term. Can you find developers who now all these little technologies and can work for you. Were is the support / training for these products. Most likely some of these OS options will grow up and be contenders, but personally I wouldn't be jumping on any platform that wasn't provided by a main stream player. Which in my opinion leaves only three options. 1. Adobe - Coldfusion / Flex 2. Microsoft - .NET 3. Sun - Java Regards Dale Fraser http://dale.fraser.id.au -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bjorn Schultheiss Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 10:36 AM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Why buy into CF? Personally I havent got down with the RoR yet, so I'm not familiar with the ruby language. In terms of a Flex/CF setup there are a lot of benefits. Basically you got the weight of Adobe pushing this combination to enable quick deployment of apps. That includes documentation, examples, engineer feedback, new updates. That being said you must pay. I think I'll have to build a Flex/RoR app first before making an assessment. Regards, Bjorn Schultheiss Senior Flash Developer QDC Technologies -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barry Beattie Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 10:10 AM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Why buy into CF? please forgive me if this comes across as trolling but I'm running out of ammo here in trying to keep the CF flag flying here's the question: Why Buy into CF? because of rapid development? - NOPE!: not compared against RubyOnRails, it seems. It's true against Java/JSP development or ASP.NET/C# but CF seems to be no longer the fastest pocket-rocket. because of built-in flash remoting, making it the most cost-effective way of supporting AMF3 for Flex2? - NOPE!: How much does WebORB for Rails cost?.. WebORB for Rails is an open source project. It is available free of charge under the GNU General Public License http://www.themidnightcoders.com/weborb/rubyonrails/faq.htm#howmuch (FYI: WebOrb is a company picking up where PHPAMF left off...) it has features like CFDOCUMENT? Verity? - NOPE!: some ppl (G'day Gareth!) found limitations with CFDocument real fast and switched to using the latest iText libraries natively. Ditto with Verity, replaced with Lucerne. CFREPORT? ... dunno, could never fly that as a solution. too limiting, no interest. FlashForms? ... no call for them really, especially now that Flex2 is out Gateways? ... could never float this as something meaningful. Either the systems were standard, not enterprise - or - the enterprise boxes were stuck on CF6.1 and it's not enough reason to upgrade. it's got a large, active, supportive community? ... I'd say yes compared to Java and .NET... but not against the evangellical RonR world, who seems to gain the strength of 10 because their platform is opensource. ... and everything they touch seems to turn to opensource So, keeping in mind CF8 in development... ... what could possibly entice ppl to buy into CF, either from scratch - or - upgrading from CF6.1? this is a serious ask of, not why CF people are where they are now, but how they can justify traveling down the CF road in the future. (maybe I'm gowing weary of the luddites here that won't upgrade the dwindling number of servers to CF7, the undermining pro-RubyOnRails camp here ... and that opensource WebOrb AMF3 news.. that's the last [EMAIL PROTECTED]@ straw...) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
I see, But I picked them for my comment I wouldn't be jumping on any platform that wasn't provided by a main stream player Thus, I don't know who provides PHP. Regards Dale Fraser http://dale.fraser.id.au -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 13:01 PM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? No sorry, my point was Java is a little different to .Net and CF as is php. Java code is open you can do what ever you like with it even rewrite the core code in each release if you wish. CF and .Net are not open at all so it's strange that you included Java in with CF and .Net. my .02 Name the company behind PHP. Regards Dale Fraser http://dale.fraser.id.au -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rod Higgins Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 11:01 AM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? No php? Hmm ... - Original Message - From: Dale Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 10:46 AM Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? There are lots of reasons. It doesn't just give you web stuff it gives you a lot more, like PDF, report writing, Flash / Flex hooks It leverages the power of Java without the complexity. Compared to pulling in lots of different OS / Free solutions to achieve the same result, you are better off with CF. Are these OS options going to be supported long term. Can you find developers who now all these little technologies and can work for you. Were is the support / training for these products. Most likely some of these OS options will grow up and be contenders, but personally I wouldn't be jumping on any platform that wasn't provided by a main stream player. Which in my opinion leaves only three options. 1. Adobe - Coldfusion / Flex 2. Microsoft - .NET 3. Sun - Java Regards Dale Fraser http://dale.fraser.id.au -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bjorn Schultheiss Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 10:36 AM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Why buy into CF? Personally I havent got down with the RoR yet, so I'm not familiar with the ruby language. In terms of a Flex/CF setup there are a lot of benefits. Basically you got the weight of Adobe pushing this combination to enable quick deployment of apps. That includes documentation, examples, engineer feedback, new updates. That being said you must pay. I think I'll have to build a Flex/RoR app first before making an assessment. Regards, Bjorn Schultheiss Senior Flash Developer QDC Technologies -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barry Beattie Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 10:10 AM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Why buy into CF? please forgive me if this comes across as trolling but I'm running out of ammo here in trying to keep the CF flag flying here's the question: Why Buy into CF? because of rapid development? - NOPE!: not compared against RubyOnRails, it seems. It's true against Java/JSP development or ASP.NET/C# but CF seems to be no longer the fastest pocket-rocket. because of built-in flash remoting, making it the most cost-effective way of supporting AMF3 for Flex2? - NOPE!: How much does WebORB for Rails cost?.. WebORB for Rails is an open source project. It is available free of charge under the GNU General Public License http://www.themidnightcoders.com/weborb/rubyonrails/faq.htm#howmuch (FYI: WebOrb is a company picking up where PHPAMF left off...) it has features like CFDOCUMENT? Verity? - NOPE!: some ppl (G'day Gareth!) found limitations with CFDocument real fast and switched to using the latest iText libraries natively. Ditto with Verity, replaced with Lucerne. CFREPORT? ... dunno, could never fly that as a solution. too limiting, no interest. FlashForms? ... no call for them really, especially now that Flex2 is out Gateways? ... could never float this as something meaningful. Either the systems were standard, not enterprise - or - the enterprise boxes were stuck on CF6.1 and it's not enough reason to upgrade. it's got a large, active, supportive community? ... I'd say yes compared to Java and .NET... but not against the evangellical RonR world, who seems to gain the strength of 10 because their platform is opensource. ... and everything they touch seems to turn to opensource So, keeping in mind CF8 in development... ... what could possibly entice ppl to buy into CF, either from scratch - or - upgrading from CF6.1? this is a serious ask of, not why CF people are where they are now, but how they can justify traveling down the CF road
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
RoR is super simple if you are following DHH's blog in 15 minutes presentation. After that it does get considerably harder and you are, god forbid, expected to learn something of the ruby language and the mechanics of the rails framework. I spent about 100 hours building an app in it earlier this year and found that the 80/20 rule (80% of the funcitonality in 20% of the time, remaining 20% of the funcitonality takes 80% of the time) blew out to something like 90/10. I had 90 of the app together in about 10 hours using the scaffolding stuff, but when I needed to do harder stuff I had a very steep learning curve. So getting started in rails is very easy, trying to do stuff that doesn't come out of the box is somewhat harder. Having said that, ruby is a pretty mature powerful language and there is not much you can't do if you spend the time learning how. There are plenty of big apps/sites out there running RoR prove its more than a neat toy. The biggest and most valid complaint I have heard against RoR and Ruby generally is the breadth and maturity of the libraries for fundamental things like HTTP and XML parsing. What is often taken for granted in the CF community is that when you are doing a XMLSearch or XMLParse you are using some of the most mature, stable and power libraries out there (mostly from the Apache Foundation). Ruby just isn't up to this level yet. On 8/30/06, Joel Cass [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone please correct me if I am wrong, but.. I played around with RonR a few weekends ago and while it was quick to get a blog going, it seemed like it would be difficult to build a more complex application. Basically as far as I could see, RonR is good for getting raw data (yes, I know you can join tables, whoopdidoo) and plonking it into a web layout. Anything more complex would require a deepened understanding of the language and many hours of stuffing around, kind of like CF, but CF has an advantage. CF is simple, easy to learn and understand plus it doesn't try to obfuscate things into models and so forth (though there are many models out there to do this).. And how many really good developers can you get for Ruby at the moment? Heres an idea which could revolutionise the industry, build a CF-on-rails. Joel -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Barry Beattie Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 10:10 AM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Why buy into CF? please forgive me if this comes across as trolling but I'm running out of ammo here in trying to keep the CF flag flying here's the question: Why Buy into CF? because of rapid development? - NOPE!: not compared against RubyOnRails, it seems. It's true against Java/JSP development or ASP.NET/C# but CF seems to be no longer the fastest pocket-rocket. because of built-in flash remoting, making it the most cost-effective way of supporting AMF3 for Flex2? - NOPE!: How much does WebORB for Rails cost?.. WebORB for Rails is an open source project. It is available free of charge under the GNU General Public License http://www.themidnightcoders.com/weborb/rubyonrails/faq.htm#howmuch (FYI: WebOrb is a company picking up where PHPAMF left off...) it has features like CFDOCUMENT? Verity? - NOPE!: some ppl (G'day Gareth!) found limitations with CFDocument real fast and switched to using the latest iText libraries natively. Ditto with Verity, replaced with Lucerne. CFREPORT? ... dunno, could never fly that as a solution. too limiting, no interest. FlashForms? ... no call for them really, especially now that Flex2 is out Gateways? ... could never float this as something meaningful. Either the systems were standard, not enterprise - or - the enterprise boxes were stuck on CF6.1 and it's not enough reason to upgrade. it's got a large, active, supportive community? ... I'd say yes compared to Java and .NET... but not against the evangellical RonR world, who seems to gain the strength of 10 because their platform is opensource. ... and everything they touch seems to turn to opensource So, keeping in mind CF8 in development... ... what could possibly entice ppl to buy into CF, either from scratch - or - upgrading from CF6.1? this is a serious ask of, not why CF people are where they are now, but how they can justify traveling down the CF road in the future. (maybe I'm gowing weary of the luddites here that won't upgrade the dwindling number of servers to CF7, the undermining pro-RubyOnRails camp here ... and that opensource WebOrb AMF3 news.. that's the last [EMAIL PROTECTED]@ straw...) -- Mark Stanton Gruden Pty Ltd http://www.gruden.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Dale, I'm sure there's a lot of PHP developers that don't know either, nor care. the same for their bosses and their clients. so which Ghostbusters are you going to call if something goes wrong? mothership Adobe that has it's own adgenda? (Let's see how many old CF bugs get sorted with CF8, eh?... QueryOfQueryahem!) - or - a (large) bunch of psycho Rails _* who have posters of DHH to keep them inspired? documentation is a valid point, so is experiance of developers. But who owns it - does it really matter anymore? b * couldn't think of anything here without it possibly comming out as an insult... On 8/30/06, Dale Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see, But I picked them for my comment I wouldn't be jumping on any platform that wasn't provided by a main stream player Thus, I don't know who provides PHP. Regards Dale Fraser http://dale.fraser.id.au -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 13:01 PM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? No sorry, my point was Java is a little different to .Net and CF as is php. Java code is open you can do what ever you like with it even rewrite the core code in each release if you wish. CF and .Net are not open at all so it's strange that you included Java in with CF and .Net. my .02 Name the company behind PHP. Regards Dale Fraser http://dale.fraser.id.au -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rod Higgins Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 11:01 AM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? No php? Hmm ... - Original Message - From: Dale Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 10:46 AM Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? There are lots of reasons. It doesn't just give you web stuff it gives you a lot more, like PDF, report writing, Flash / Flex hooks It leverages the power of Java without the complexity. Compared to pulling in lots of different OS / Free solutions to achieve the same result, you are better off with CF. Are these OS options going to be supported long term. Can you find developers who now all these little technologies and can work for you. Were is the support / training for these products. Most likely some of these OS options will grow up and be contenders, but personally I wouldn't be jumping on any platform that wasn't provided by a main stream player. Which in my opinion leaves only three options. 1. Adobe - Coldfusion / Flex 2. Microsoft - .NET 3. Sun - Java Regards Dale Fraser http://dale.fraser.id.au -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bjorn Schultheiss Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 10:36 AM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Why buy into CF? Personally I havent got down with the RoR yet, so I'm not familiar with the ruby language. In terms of a Flex/CF setup there are a lot of benefits. Basically you got the weight of Adobe pushing this combination to enable quick deployment of apps. That includes documentation, examples, engineer feedback, new updates. That being said you must pay. I think I'll have to build a Flex/RoR app first before making an assessment. Regards, Bjorn Schultheiss Senior Flash Developer QDC Technologies -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barry Beattie Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 10:10 AM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Why buy into CF? please forgive me if this comes across as trolling but I'm running out of ammo here in trying to keep the CF flag flying here's the question: Why Buy into CF? because of rapid development? - NOPE!: not compared against RubyOnRails, it seems. It's true against Java/JSP development or ASP.NET/C# but CF seems to be no longer the fastest pocket-rocket. because of built-in flash remoting, making it the most cost-effective way of supporting AMF3 for Flex2? - NOPE!: How much does WebORB for Rails cost?.. WebORB for Rails is an open source project. It is available free of charge under the GNU General Public License http://www.themidnightcoders.com/weborb/rubyonrails/faq.htm#howmuch (FYI: WebOrb is a company picking up where PHPAMF left off...) it has features like CFDOCUMENT? Verity? - NOPE!: some ppl (G'day Gareth!) found limitations with CFDocument real fast and switched to using the latest iText libraries natively. Ditto with Verity, replaced with Lucerne. CFREPORT? ... dunno, could never fly that as a solution. too limiting, no interest
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
You get 2 of those 3 in RoR On 8/30/06, Blair McKenzie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Besides the support issues, there is also a level of polish in CF that other languages don't have. Some points are: CF components are an access=remote away from being web services query-of-queries custom tags - they may seem like a trivial feature but can make code incredibly intuitive Blair On 8/30/06, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally I havent got down with the RoR yet, so I'm not familiar with the ruby language. In terms of a Flex/CF setup there are a lot of benefits. Basically you got the weight of Adobe pushing this combination to enable quick deployment of apps. That includes documentation, examples, engineer feedback, new updates. That being said you must pay. I think I'll have to build a Flex/RoR app first before making an assessment. Regards, Bjorn Schultheiss Senior Flash Developer QDC Technologies -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barry Beattie Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 10:10 AM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Why buy into CF? please forgive me if this comes across as trolling but I'm running out of ammo here in trying to keep the CF flag flying here's the question: Why Buy into CF? because of rapid development? - NOPE!: not compared against RubyOnRails, it seems. It's true against Java/JSP development or ASP.NET/C# but CF seems to be no longer the fastest pocket-rocket. because of built-in flash remoting, making it the most cost-effective way of supporting AMF3 for Flex2? - NOPE!: How much does WebORB for Rails cost?.. WebORB for Rails is an open source project. It is available free of charge under the GNU General Public License http://www.themidnightcoders.com/weborb/rubyonrails/faq.htm#howmuch (FYI: WebOrb is a company picking up where PHPAMF left off...) it has features like CFDOCUMENT? Verity? - NOPE!: some ppl (G'day Gareth!) found limitations with CFDocument real fast and switched to using the latest iText libraries natively. Ditto with Verity, replaced with Lucerne. CFREPORT? ... dunno, could never fly that as a solution. too limiting, no interest. FlashForms? ... no call for them really, especially now that Flex2 is out Gateways? ... could never float this as something meaningful. Either the systems were standard, not enterprise - or - the enterprise boxes were stuck on CF6.1 and it's not enough reason to upgrade. it's got a large, active, supportive community? ... I'd say yes compared to Java and .NET... but not against the evangellical RonR world, who seems to gain the strength of 10 because their platform is opensource. ... and everything they touch seems to turn to opensource So, keeping in mind CF8 in development... ... what could possibly entice ppl to buy into CF, either from scratch - or - upgrading from CF6.1? this is a serious ask of, not why CF people are where they are now, but how they can justify traveling down the CF road in the future. (maybe I'm gowing weary of the luddites here that won't upgrade the dwindling number of servers to CF7, the undermining pro-RubyOnRails camp here ... and that opensource WebOrb AMF3 news.. that's the last [EMAIL PROTECTED]@ straw...) -- Mark Stanton Gruden Pty Ltd http://www.gruden.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Doods, I brought this up a few lists ago. I'm currently battling to keep CF as well. But its a battle that is going to end with MS being the winner. Firstly; RoR there is one for ColdFusion called CFWheels do a google search. However it only works with Apache and for the most part I couldn't even get running. Secondly; THE only way ColdFusion is going to get more market share (because right now its what it needs) are; 1. Come out with some Kick A** features that will blow MS out of the water 2. Open source the ColdFusion Server thing and sell the tools such as flex builder, DW Sad to say we are moving to .NET because of licences. Jeremy --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
When presenting different technologies to the Board here, the first question the chairman asked. Q: Who makes ColdFusion A: Adobe Now if I had been pitching PHP. Q: Who makes PHP A: Ahh, Not sure a bunch of guys, but you shouldn't care! Yeah, right I'm not sure what type of business you work for who don't care about these things, but we are a publicly listed company and our management care. Regards Dale Fraser http://dale.fraser.id.au -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barry Beattie Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 13:46 PM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? Dale, I'm sure there's a lot of PHP developers that don't know either, nor care. the same for their bosses and their clients. so which Ghostbusters are you going to call if something goes wrong? mothership Adobe that has it's own adgenda? (Let's see how many old CF bugs get sorted with CF8, eh?... QueryOfQueryahem!) - or - a (large) bunch of psycho Rails _* who have posters of DHH to keep them inspired? documentation is a valid point, so is experiance of developers. But who owns it - does it really matter anymore? b * couldn't think of anything here without it possibly comming out as an insult... On 8/30/06, Dale Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see, But I picked them for my comment I wouldn't be jumping on any platform that wasn't provided by a main stream player Thus, I don't know who provides PHP. Regards Dale Fraser http://dale.fraser.id.au -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 13:01 PM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? No sorry, my point was Java is a little different to .Net and CF as is php. Java code is open you can do what ever you like with it even rewrite the core code in each release if you wish. CF and .Net are not open at all so it's strange that you included Java in with CF and .Net. my .02 Name the company behind PHP. Regards Dale Fraser http://dale.fraser.id.au -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rod Higgins Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 11:01 AM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? No php? Hmm ... - Original Message - From: Dale Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 10:46 AM Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? There are lots of reasons. It doesn't just give you web stuff it gives you a lot more, like PDF, report writing, Flash / Flex hooks It leverages the power of Java without the complexity. Compared to pulling in lots of different OS / Free solutions to achieve the same result, you are better off with CF. Are these OS options going to be supported long term. Can you find developers who now all these little technologies and can work for you. Were is the support / training for these products. Most likely some of these OS options will grow up and be contenders, but personally I wouldn't be jumping on any platform that wasn't provided by a main stream player. Which in my opinion leaves only three options. 1. Adobe - Coldfusion / Flex 2. Microsoft - .NET 3. Sun - Java Regards Dale Fraser http://dale.fraser.id.au -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bjorn Schultheiss Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 10:36 AM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Why buy into CF? Personally I havent got down with the RoR yet, so I'm not familiar with the ruby language. In terms of a Flex/CF setup there are a lot of benefits. Basically you got the weight of Adobe pushing this combination to enable quick deployment of apps. That includes documentation, examples, engineer feedback, new updates. That being said you must pay. I think I'll have to build a Flex/RoR app first before making an assessment. Regards, Bjorn Schultheiss Senior Flash Developer QDC Technologies -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barry Beattie Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 10:10 AM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Why buy into CF? please forgive me if this comes across as trolling but I'm running out of ammo here in trying to keep the CF flag flying here's the question: Why Buy into CF? because of rapid development? - NOPE!: not compared against RubyOnRails, it seems. It's true against Java/JSP development or ASP.NET/C# but CF seems to be no longer the fastest pocket-rocket. because of built-in flash remoting, making it the most cost
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Hmmm, Without going further into the argument, or what RoR is. But to me RoR looks and smells like MG:U Or am I missing something? Senior Coldfusion Developer Aegeon Pty. Ltd. www.aegeon.com.au Phone: +613 8676 4223 Mobile: 0404 998 273 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
The issue isn't if BlueDragon is cheaper or not. The fact of the matter is the Server licences cost to much. We have are LARGE application that is writtin in CF but will be pushed to .NET because its cheaper to buy studio and distribute our application then it is to buy CF server/s licence and then our cost of the application on top of that. Sorry Adobe/MM/Allaire have it ass backwards. J. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
When you look at it like that, how much is .NET Studio? About the same cost as a CFServer License? PRO version anyway. Yet you can, as I would imagine many people on this list are doing, either still developing their CF apps on software thats 3 yrs old or is free like eclipse. Correct me if I am wrong, but it would be very difficult to develop a .NET application using something as simple as notepad. When you start to compare costs like that, not only in development, but in tools and having to constantly upgrade tools to take advantage of new features in your application servers, then you start to see the real cost of development. This is even more so when you have teams of coders doing stuff, having to fork out that sort of money to set up each work station with the required development environments with software, then start to look how much it blows the cost of development out of the water. Thats it from me for now:) Steve -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of cfgroupie Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 2:09 PM To: cfaussie Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? The issue isn't if BlueDragon is cheaper or not. The fact of the matter is the Server licences cost to much. We have are LARGE application that is writtin in CF but will be pushed to .NET because its cheaper to buy studio and distribute our application then it is to buy CF server/s licence and then our cost of the application on top of that. Sorry Adobe/MM/Allaire have it ass backwards. J. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Ok, Coldfusion can be used with a development license, devnet license is free as long as it is never used in production. Now, with eclipse and all the plugins for svn, cvs, jira to name a few it is still free to develop any application I want. Now .Net has a steeper programming curve than CF and you do spend more time developing than CF so the cost becomes irrelevant and should be incorporated into the price of the job you do for your client, unless of course you are hosting yourself then you can recoup the cost by x amount of clients or use a shared hosting which .Net will cost the same amount of money to host roughly. And the argument is what again? I still see RoR the same as ModleGlue. Senior Coldfusion Developer Aegeon Pty. Ltd. www.aegeon.com.au Phone: +613 8676 4223 Mobile: 0404 998 273 -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of cfgroupie Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 2:46 PM To: cfaussie Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? I see your point steve, but I think your wrong. Firstly; .NET you can develop an app using notepad. Why...cause your a freak and you like your nipples twisted. Secondly; The Cost is once off for the company and in turn can develop many apps to pay it off where they can have that cost built into the product they are building. Sorry, the only real excuse is if the developer doesn't understand the requirements of their application they are building and blows the time out of the water. Jeremy. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
I still see RoR the same as ModleGlue. but that's just how the apps get written/what to produce. in other words, CF is *not* the final word in RAD. and it doesn't deal with how much it costs to get it out there, which are the valid points that Jeremy and Steve are discussing. and that's the heart of the argument. it now costs about the same (roughly) to run RonR as it does PHP. for a while CF Vs PHP debates have focused on features and RAD. Now RonR is come to prominence, the arguments aren't as clear as that. Mark, while I acknowledge your points on 80/20 (or 90/10) you get that with any platform until you get to know it. How many times have you replaced someone elses hundreds of lines of code with only a couple of your own, just because you know the tricks? And the argument is what again? and the reason for choosing CF is what, again? On 8/30/06, Andrew Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, Coldfusion can be used with a development license, devnet license is free as long as it is never used in production. Now, with eclipse and all the plugins for svn, cvs, jira to name a few it is still free to develop any application I want. Now .Net has a steeper programming curve than CF and you do spend more time developing than CF so the cost becomes irrelevant and should be incorporated into the price of the job you do for your client, unless of course you are hosting yourself then you can recoup the cost by x amount of clients or use a shared hosting which .Net will cost the same amount of money to host roughly. And the argument is what again? I still see RoR the same as ModleGlue. Senior Coldfusion Developer Aegeon Pty. Ltd. www.aegeon.com.au Phone: +613 8676 4223 Mobile: 0404 998 273 -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of cfgroupie Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 2:46 PM To: cfaussie Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? I see your point steve, but I think your wrong. Firstly; .NET you can develop an app using notepad. Why...cause your a freak and you like your nipples twisted. Secondly; The Cost is once off for the company and in turn can develop many apps to pay it off where they can have that cost built into the product they are building. Sorry, the only real excuse is if the developer doesn't understand the requirements of their application they are building and blows the time out of the water. Jeremy. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
Hi Andrew I still see RoR the same as ModleGlue. Here is the rails API documentation: http://api.rubyonrails.com/ If you take the ColdSpring, MG, Reactor and CFAjax + big chunks of the CF language (where CF is abstracting away tricky stuff like queries, mail, includes, custom tags, etc..) you'll end up with something like Rails. The Ruby language is a lower level scripting language like ECMAscript, Python or Perl, that provides the basic syntax - its not specifically web related. All the web app related stuff is in Rails. Saying RoR = MG is really only looking at one very small part of RoR. On 8/30/06, Andrew Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, Coldfusion can be used with a development license, devnet license is free as long as it is never used in production. Now, with eclipse and all the plugins for svn, cvs, jira to name a few it is still free to develop any application I want. Now .Net has a steeper programming curve than CF and you do spend more time developing than CF so the cost becomes irrelevant and should be incorporated into the price of the job you do for your client, unless of course you are hosting yourself then you can recoup the cost by x amount of clients or use a shared hosting which .Net will cost the same amount of money to host roughly. And the argument is what again? I still see RoR the same as ModleGlue. Senior Coldfusion Developer Aegeon Pty. Ltd. www.aegeon.com.au Phone: +613 8676 4223 Mobile: 0404 998 273 -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of cfgroupie Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 2:46 PM To: cfaussie Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? I see your point steve, but I think your wrong. Firstly; .NET you can develop an app using notepad. Why...cause your a freak and you like your nipples twisted. Secondly; The Cost is once off for the company and in turn can develop many apps to pay it off where they can have that cost built into the product they are building. Sorry, the only real excuse is if the developer doesn't understand the requirements of their application they are building and blows the time out of the water. Jeremy. -- Mark Stanton Gruden Pty Ltd http://www.gruden.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF?
And spend a fortune developing the libraries or 3rd party libraries Senior Coldfusion Developer Aegeon Pty. Ltd. www.aegeon.com.au Phone: +613 8676 4223 Mobile: 0404 998 273 -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of cfgroupie Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2006 3:23 PM To: cfaussie Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Why buy into CF? Thats my point, You develop in ColdFusion for free but when it comes time to sell your application it costs money to do that. Where as MS does it the other way around. Most big applications that we build are internal so hosting isn't an issue, but the server licence is. Don't get me wrong I would LOVE to continue programming in CF. But its all drivin by costing. Oh and you can have a free version of .NET its scaled down but it does work. Jeremy. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
