Re: Stus-List Auto prop

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Hi Josh,

I'm late to this thread (haven't been checking list regularly). I have an
AutoProp. 18" 3-bladed, model # AP 3899 RH.

I would say we're moderately happy with it. It provides good power and we
can motor ~6 kts at 2000-2100 rpm (3HMF); 6.5 kts at 2200.

I wrote a post on it here a while back:
https://svviolethour.com/2018/03/07/maintaining-an-autoprop-propellor/

The main reasons I'm not perfectly happy with it are:
- a diesel mechanic told me AutoProps are harder on the transmission than
MaxProp (we had transmission issues a few years ago, so this is an
ever-present concern)
- the anodes don't last long (they're specific to AutoProp shape and don't
have much metal around the 3 bolt holes, so they tend to break off while
spinning - we've gotten improved results by switching to aluminum and
painting around the bolt holes).
- the prop doesn't always feather well while sailing, causing the shaft to
spin when running downwind. We use a shaft lock now to cut down on the
noise. This may be partly my fault as I'm behind on maintenance - like your
MaxProp, our AutoProp also needs a rebuild (last done 2008, prior owner).
One blade has some rough bearings and isn't free-falling. I'm probably
going to do it myself in March, using as inspiration the Delos video where
Brian did it on theirs. I also had a quote for about $500 from some prop
shop on the east coast.

-Patrick
C LF38
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Re: Stus-List Thickness of acrylic cabin windows on LF38?

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Thanks for the replies, sounds like I can use either 3/8" or 1/4". I'm
going with 3/8" (9mm) for the extra strength and so it will be flush with
the exterior hull surface. The actual sizes from Acrylite are in mm, I just
measured in inches out of habit.

I have one window pulled now (it came out quite easily, fortunately, after
thrubolts were removed). The prep / cleanup looks like it's going to take a
long time, as expected but maybe a bit worse than expected. This plexus
stuff is a *pain*.

On the surface closest to the old window was a black rubbery sealant, which
comes off easily, but below that is some kind of black / brown hard epoxy.
>From prior threads (
http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2015-February/073099.html )
I understand this is a methacrylate adhesive, aka Plexus (the brand name).
Robert H in the prior thread decided to just fair over it, which I may have
to do as well in some places.

Another thread that discusses the Plexus headache is by Gary Russell -
http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2015-December/080369.html
His experience was a bit different though (he had a very hard time
separating the old acrylic from the Plexus), which makes me think maybe our
windows have been previously replaced, and a sealant was used on top of the
Plexus. It sounds like he used a router or RotoZip to cut off the plexus.

We shall see (this will take a while).

-Patrick
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Re: Stus-List LF 38 rudder removal

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Adding one more reply to Fred's question -
For us removing the donut collar was very difficult. The set screws likely
had mangled some threads and this caused threads to seize / shear within
the collar when unscrewing it. Our collar appears to be stainless steel, so
definitely a difference from the brass/bronze Ed on Prime Interest says his
is. Eventually what did it was a very large pipe wrench hit with a very
large hammer (with help from Lee on this list). The pipe wrench scratched
up the collar a bit but there was no avoiding this as rubber padding
attempts didn't have enough grip.

Like Paul, removing the radial drive was also difficult. The 4 bolts were
seized but I was able to unthread 3 using a large ratchet with a DIY
breaker bar (pipe extension). The 4th bolt got rounded off at the bolt head
so I had to cut it off with a dremel. The rest was easier than Paul's
experience though, the two halves came apart with some hammering of a small
wedge.

My writeup is here:
https://svviolethour.com/2016/05/03/this-years-haul-out-dropping-the-rudder/


 -Patrick
1984 LF38
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Re: Stus-List Rudder lubrication Landfall 38

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I used SuperLube, a white heavy duty synthetic grease -
https://www.super-lube.com/multi-purpose-synthetic-grease-with-syncolon-ptfe

Resistant to salt water. Has lots of other uses too.

+1 to Delrin for the bearing disc.

There's a grease fitting already in the rudder stock tube (mine had a green
grease in it, which is still working well). I don't think you would need
one in the thrust bearing, and am not sure how you would install one there
anyway. I did notice a squeak coming from that area (near the Delrin disc)
a couple weeks ago while sailing, so am planning to squeeze some more
Superlube below the disc or maybe spray in some dry lubricant (SailKote).

-Patrick
1984 LF38

-- Forwarded message --
From: Simon and Silvana 

I have removed the rudder and would like guidance on the type of lubricant
to use in the lower section where the rudder passes through the fibreglass
tube.
What is the best replacement material for the nylon (?) disc of the thrust
bearing?
Has anyone installed a grease fitting in the thrust bearing?
Thanks
Simon
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Stus-List Thickness of acrylic cabin windows on LF38?

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I'm getting ready to do the windows project and have read the prior threads
about it (plus the helpful Boatworks youtube video).

When others did this project, on Landfall 38 or similar sized C's, did
you use 3/8" thickness or 1/4" on the new windows?

My existing windows are 3/8", thrubolted with black sealant. The sealant
squeezed out to the edges due to the thrubolting, so the windows are very
much flush with the inner fiberglass. I'm wondering when I switch to VHB,
will the tape thickness (0.045 in / 1.1mm) cause the windows to protrude
noticeably?

Paul on SV Johanna Rose (LF38) says on his blog that he used 1/4" thickness
(Lexan/polycarbonate, which I am not doing).

Another thought is if others used 1/4" acrylic, will I be able to flex 3/8"
acrylic enough to fit the contour of the hull? 3/8" is pretty stiff. I've
read about the different methods people used to hold the windows in place
until the VHB cures and am thinking of using the weighted plank method
(place wood boards at an angle to the exterior and put weights on them to
apply pressure) plus just manually holding in place for the first 10-15 min.

-Patrick
1984 C LF38
Seattle, WA
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Re: Stus-List Autopilot tiller arm on LF38 *without* bolting

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Hi Paul,
Thanks for the ideas, lots of good ones!

> you wrote > * Edson sells a different radial drive which has a shorter
height.  Replacing an existing with one of these would be costly but it
could free up shaft space for the tiller arm.  One needs to check the specs
for the shorter radials and see if that option is feasible.

This is one idea Edson engineering suggested to me today actually!  Alden
got back to me (after speaking with engineering) and has been very helpful.
It would be a good deal of work swapping out the radial, and there are some
subtle impacts to consider (I can't change the wire track height too much
because if it causes steering cable chafe that will require shimming the
idlers/sheaves). It also might require extending the rudder stop post.

Flipping the existing offset-disc radial upside down doesn't help because
it would still consume the same amount of rudder shaft space (nearly all of
it, leaving no room for a standard tiller arm).

Edson's other idea was to move the existing radial down by 1.75", bringing
the concave portion of the disc closer to the rudder stock tube and freeing
up enough space for the 1 5/8" tiller arm above the radial. This definitely
requires idler/sheave modification though and rudder stop modification. In
addition it's a very tight fit to the point where it might not work (1/8"
clearance on cockpit floor and aft stern bulkhead).

Your 3rd idea is quite interesting, no one has thought of reusing the
radial drive hub thrubolts. The hub is contoured and has a ridge, so it
would have to be quite a custom part to get a good fit.

I've ruled out option B from my original email (Jefa quadrant with
integrated tiller arm) because it turns out it too would require
idler/sheave adjustments in addition to a custom rudder stop - basically
complete steering system redesign.

I'm focusing on option A now, which was to have a machine shop make an
"offset tiller arm" or "drop" tiller arm. I discovered the term "offset
tiller arm" when I found Buck Algonquin makes them (but not in the right
size for our boat, and they're bronze castings so they can't do a custom
one - they do 1000+ unit production runs).
https://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com/89112-89000-series-offset-tiller-arm

But having a machine shop make my own offset tiller arm seems doable, as
long as I can find a machine shop willing to do it.

-Patrick

-- Forwarded message --
> From: Dreuge 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2019 17:24:39 -0500
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Autopilot tiller arm on LF38 *without* bolting
> Patrick,
>
> As you can imagine, I thought about this a bit, and while I choose to use
> a radial rudder stop mount for my connections for several reasons.  But
> there are options one may consider which would utilize a traditional
> autopilot tiller arms.  Edson makes tiller arms in both Aluminum and
> Bronze.  To me, it makes no sense to opt for the Aluminum arm as I doubt
> it's structurally as strong as using the radial rudder stop mount.  A
> Bronze arm (or even a custom stainless) is a good choice.
>
> * Edson sells a different radial drive which has a shorter height.
> Replacing an existing with one of these would be costly but it could free
> up shaft space for the tiller arm.  One needs to check the specs for the
> shorter radials and see if that option is feasible.
>
> * Alternatively, one may consider flipping the existing radial drive
> upside down.  It would be a challenging to reinstall and adjust the cables,
> and who knows, it may actually make the reinstall easier.   The rudder stop
> can be installed either on top or below on a radial drive, so in principle
> that can be mounted back on top,  but since the radial plane would be
> higher than existing, one may need to go with smaller steering idler
> sheaves.   While I though about this, I never actually measured for a fit.
>
> * A third option, and one I thought of after the fact, is to have a tiller
> arm custom made so that it bolts onto the radial at the shaft using the
> radial shaft bolts.  One would need slightly longer bolts, but it would be
> very robust.  (inspired by the custom bracket mount for my rudder
> indicator).
>
> Finally, with regards to radial/mount failures, I have heard of one where
> someone drilled holes in the radial for installing a mounting bracket
> rather than using the rudder stop bracket.  The set up failed over time due
> to dissimilar metal corrosion.I think drilling the radial is a huge
> mistake. It makes it weaker and more prone to corrosion.   Edson has
> reported that over time the radial can corrode at the rudder stop due to
> the dissimilar metals. This has been a common cause of rudder stop
> failures. While Edson has redesigned the rudder stop, they contend that
> failure is due to steering system neglect and lack of system system
> inspection.  Yes, we should all inspect more.  I would like to add that
> improper installation likely added to 

Re: Stus-List Autopilot tiller arm on LF38 *without* bolting to quadrant?

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

That would be great if my worries are unfounded because it would save a lot
of work. :)
But I'm not so sure. Generally I like to defer to the advice of the
manufacturer - they're the designers, the experts, the engineers, after
all. Of course, I think Edson is being overly conservative to cover their
butts. But it is true that losing steering could very well be catastrophic.

And of the boats that have installed direct to quadrant, I don't know what
kind of conditions they've been tested in. It's possible they've never
reached peak thrust.

Bob do you have any pictures of your autopilot install? I searched your
blog but I think it's not on there (it's from before the blog).

-Patrick

>
>
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Stus-List Autopilot tiller arm on LF38 *without* bolting to quadrant?

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I know there was a thread about below-decks autopilots on the Landfall 38
where discussion ended up on "bolt it to the radial drive, reinforcing the
attachment point." (
http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2018-May/200838.html )

I'm researching this now, with interest in installing a Raymarine EV-200
with type 1 mechanical linear drive, and I think it *might* be possible to
do without bolting to the radial drive. Does anyone know if any LF38 has
successfully done this?

I've already read dreuge's post -
http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/2016/12/below-deck-autopilot.html - which
is excellent. But he went a different route than I want to go, so it would
be helpful to see other photos and installation ideas.

The reason I want to avoid bolting to the radial drive is that Edson has
repeatedly advised against it, calling it a "likely catastrophic failure"
and saying the cast aluminum fixture is not designed for those kind of
torsional forces, it's designed for pulling forces (via the cables). A Type
1 ram has 650 lbs peak thrust and a type 2 has 1050 lbs. Additionally I
have found one account of someone who had their Edson radial explode (with
autopilot mounted to it) - it took 15 years before this happened, but still
not a risk that's worth it in my mind.

The ideas I'm considering for doing this without mounting to the radial
are:

A) custom tiller arm, with a 90 degree bend to clear the radial drive rim.
It would clamp to the rudder shaft in the 1.9" of available space (1.5" of
that is within the bottom concave part of the radial drive). Note I have no
diesel tank under the steering, which makes this easier. I don't have a
design for this idea though.

B) Jefa 270 degree quadrant with integrated tiller arm.
https://www.jefa.com/steering/products/cable/quadrants/quadrants.htm
I'm talking to Jefa (part of PYI now) this week. The quadrant with welded
on tiller arm has less overall height than an Edson radial drive, so it
would fit. But I'm not sure about positioning of the linear drive unit -
it's 27.5" long and the LF38 stern is quite narrow.

Sorry for the long post. The motivation for a below-decks autopilot is that
the wheel pilot is not strong enough for significant wave state (it's only
rated for 16.5k lbs displacement, and the LF38 is more like 19-20k when
loaded for cruising).

-Patrick
1984 C LF38
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Re: Stus-List 100w solar panel for $89

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

That's a good price, although there are many other 100w rigid panels around
that price range too - 3 different brands in the $100-115 range on Amazon.
The question is how well they will hold up and perform. The reviews seem
good. I wouldn't worry about optimizing the price of the panels though -
other installation costs are typically more significant (MPPT controller,
mounting hardware). Panels are a commodity product (many are made by the
same factory anyway and just rebranded and remarketed by dozens of
companies).

I prefer flexible over rigid panels though. That panel is 18 lbs so if you
put two plus any SS tubing for mounting, you're adding close to 50 lbs. Our
stern already has too much weight with our outboard and various other
stuff.

Flexible are more expensive. But don't forget the solar tax credit, which
may be available to you - takes off 30% in April of next year.

Here's my writeup on solar:
https://svviolethour.com/2017/06/28/harnessing-the-sun-solar-power-on-a-sailboat/

-Patrick
1984 C Landfall 38


> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Danny Haughey 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2018 15:19:17 -0400
> Subject: Stus-List 100w solar panel for $89
> Hi all,
> I just saw this deal at HD.
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Grape-Solar-100-Watt-
> Polycrystalline-Solar-Panel-for-RV-s-Boats-and-12-Volt-
> Systems-GS-Star-100W/204211365?cm_mmc=CJ-_-7915597-
> _-10368321=10368321=7915597=c3adb3de3af511e89e77dafb51a005
> 200INT=true
>
> I need you add solar to my boat and this seems like a good deal.   These
> panels have a high rating on Amazon.
>
> I've been putting this off but, I might grab a couple of these ru get the
> ball rolling.
>
> Does anyone have any opinion on these?
>
> Danny
>
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Re: Stus-List Replace mast sheaves

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Easy unless it's not - which I find is true of most boat projects.

Old boat, old mast, I found my clevis pin was quite stuck / seized and the
cover plate sheared off. My mast didn't have an opposing hole (not sure if
yours does).

I wrote about this in this blog post:
https://svviolethour.com/2017/01/16/rerig-part-3-now-the-projects-really-begin/

On Mar 9, 2018 5:37 AM,  wrote:


-- Forwarded message --
From: steve dewar 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc:
Bcc:
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2018 07:51:05 -0500
Subject: Stus-List Replace mast sheaves
With my mast out for the winter, I am thinking of replaces the sheaves at
the masthead. Being a new owner of my 35 mkiii and not wanting to screw up
the present halyard operation, is it as easy as unscrewing the Phillip
screw, remove metal tab,  pull out metal spindle and remove and replace the
sheave?
Enquiring mind wants to know!
Thanks Steve

Sent from my iPad
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Re: Stus-List Landfall 38 original list price

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Wow. That's $123,000 in today's dollars. (20k in 1971 = 123k today).
Important to compare real values, not nominal values - inflation over 47
years is very significant!  Still not bad, a 35' production boat today goes
a bit more than that I think.

Would be interesting if anyone has a 1980's number. The 70's after about
'73 had massive inflation -
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/economics/09/1970s-great-inflation.asp

Dennis I suspect the note to not install genoa winches is because the owner
wanted a particular placement of them (the line after that says "put in the
boat loose w/ fastenings").

-Patrick
'84 LF38

On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 1:59 PM,  wrote:
>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: "Dennis C." 
> To: CnClist 
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 14:23:01 -0600
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Landfall 38 original list price
> Paul,
>
> Doesn't answer your post but below is a link to Touche's original 1971
> order from the yacht broker to Hinterhoeller.  Shows a base price of
> $18,760 with $872 worth of options.  A Landfall 10 years later would have
> been a wee bit more.
>
> Interesting note on Page 2, Item 81.  "DO NOT install genoa sheet winches
> or cleats."  Never have figured that one out.
>
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1y6lBr8452ciJtkdrVQ2OLIKTbJAuFgb5
>
> Dennis C.
> Touche' 35-1 #83
> Mandeville, LA
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 11:15 AM, Dreuge via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I was asked a question about the Landfall 38 original list price, and  I
>> realized I had no clue.   Does anyone know what they were original going
>> for in 1981 or thereabouts?
>>
>>
>> -
>> Paul E.
>> 1981 C 38 Landfall
>> S/V Johanna Rose
>> Fort Walton Beach, FL
>>
>> http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/
>>
>>
>> ___
>>
>> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
>> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
>> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>>
>>
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Re: Stus-List Masthead sheaves C 37+

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I couldn't help but chuckle that Jeanneau owners are claiming to have
invented / named this knot.  It's just the halyard hitch with a different
finish. So perhaps it should be called halyard hitch, Jeanneau variant?

I use the standard halyard hitch which ends with the tail up:
https://www.netknots.com/rope_knots/halyard-hitch

I think it looks neater, and there hasn't been any issue with the tail
jamming in the sheave. And my sails are cut such that they don't require
pulling the line that far into the sheave anyway. The Jeanneau variant
looks worth trying too though. The standard halyard hitch is possible to
get apart with some pliers and sometimes a marlinspike is helpful.

Halyard hitch, Jeanneau variant kind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqzJj6lYtj8

-Patrick
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Re: Stus-List Vented loop for engine above exhaust elbow?

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Thanks all. Rick, that's the sort of nightmare story I'm hoping to avoid!
When you say corners were cut "on the exhaust elbow, hose routing, and the
siphon break" do you mean the prior engine had those things installed in a
poor manner, or that a siphon break wasn't installed?

I haven't heard from any Landfall 38 owners about layout (where the loop is
mounted), so if any of those folks have one I'd still be interested in
that.

I did wonder about temperature. I think the exchanger raw water output is
not as hot as the exhaust? Forespar says Marelon is okay to 170F.
Interestingly the Scot loop says 140 F max temp, which is pretty low. Maybe
because their vent parts are made out of plastic Delrin, or they're just
being conservative. In the diagram Paul sent me they show the loop in use
between the exchanger and exhaust elbow, so obviously they intend for it to
be used in that role.

I guess most people do the loop between the exchanger outlet and the
exhaust elbow because it's easier to install there than in between the
water pump and the exchanger inlet. And presuming the water is below 170F
then Marelon is okay in either location.

I agree the exhaust transom exit is probably the greater risk in most
cases. I already have an ample exhaust hose rise there though, and the
waterlock muffler should prevent siphoning afaik. It'd take a lot for
following waves to push past a 3 foot rise in a 1.5" hose and then through
an exhaust riser. I'd consider an exhaust lock (inline, in an accessible
location) if I'm worried about that. Hanging from the transom in ocean
swells to insert a plug doesn't seem viable.

-Patrick
'84 C LF38
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Re: Stus-List Vented loop for engine above exhaust elbow?

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

For those that have one, do you know what kind you have?  Vetus makes a few
- https://www.google.com/search?q=vetus+vented+loop - and there are the
Forespar Marelon ones. I read some of the Vetus ones require running a vent
line overboard or to a cockpit drain, or they leak water into the boat.

Also where do you have it mounted / how high?  My mechanic suggested
mounting it as high as possible, which means running it up into the stbd
lazarette. I'm hesistant about that because our lazarette is jam packed
full while cruising (it's our only large storage space).
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Stus-List Vented loop for engine above exhaust elbow?

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Does anyone have a vented loop on their engine cooling water hose (between
the heat exchanger and the exhaust elbow)?  Do you think it's necessary,
and any regrets / things you would change? If you have one, where is it
mounted? (particularly for LF38 layout, but any C over 32' would probably
be relevant)

I searched the archives for previous discussion of this but couldn't find
anything.  A diesel mechanic I'm having work on the engine (Yanmar 3HMF)
recommended a vented loop as a precautionary / extra-careful measure. Our
exhaust elbow is a few feet above waterline, and I'm skeptical we could
ever be heeled enough to bring it below heeled waterline (we've had the
toerail in the water before, and afaik the boat has never had a waterlock
issue). But I see his point about it maybe being cheap insurance against a
big problem.

Background: a vented loop is sometimes installed between the heat exchanger
and the exhaust elbow to prevent water in the hose from siphoning into the
engine, resulting in hydrolock or worse (engine being ruined). It has
nothing to do with the exhaust hose exiting the boat (past the exhaust
riser). The need for it is determined by whether the exhaust elbow can be
below heeled waterline or not. Opinions on the Internet diverge (some
people think they're necessary, some don't). So I'm interested in what C
folks have since this is very specific to engine layout.

-Patrick
1984 C LF38
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Re: Stus-List White non skid decks

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I've been using Starbrite nonskid deck cleaner (with PTEF) and it seems to
help.

The type of nonskid you have also matters though - sharp ridged nonskid
like KiwiGrip is very hard to keep clean.

There was a thread about this recently on CF:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2498823

On Nov 23, 2017 5:19 AM,  wrote:

- Forwarded message --
>
From: coltrek 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc:
Bcc:
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 21:16:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Stus-List White non skid decks
Sounds like the area around your boat is dirty. That's the first thing I
would be concerned with. Beyond that, try Woody Wax.


Bill Coleman
C 39


 Original message 
From: Rod Stright via CnC-List 
Date: 11/22/17 15:40 (GMT-05:00)
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Rod Stright 
Subject: Stus-List White non skid decks

Just pressure washed the deck on my new to me C 99.  Man they look great
but as soon as you step on the non skid it looks dirty and is difficult to
clean. Anybody got any tips for keeping the white non skid decks clean
and/or easier to clean?



Rod

2004 C 99


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-- Forwarded message --
From: Rod Stright 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc:
Bcc:
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 22:23:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Stus-List White non skid decks
Thanks never heard of it will give it a try

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 22, 2017, at 10:16 PM, coltrek via CnC-List 
wrote:

Sounds like the area around your boat is dirty. That's the first thing I
would be concerned with. Beyond that, try Woody Wax.


Bill Coleman
C 39


 Original message 
From: Rod Stright via CnC-List 
Date: 11/22/17 15:40 (GMT-05:00)
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Rod Stright 
Subject: Stus-List White non skid decks

Just pressure washed the deck on my new to me C 99.  Man they look great
but as soon as you step on the non skid it looks dirty and is difficult to
clean. Anybody got any tips for keeping the white non skid decks clean
and/or easier to clean?



Rod

2004 C 99


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-- Forwarded message --
From: ALAN BERGEN 
To: "C" 
Cc:
Bcc:
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 19:25:35 -0800
Subject: Re: Stus-List White non skid decks
Aurora Marine https://www.auroramarine.com/main/ makes a product called
Sure Step.  It's a sealer/polisher that's made for non-skid.

Alan Bergen
35 Mk III Thirsty
Rose City YC
Portland, OR

Alan Bergen
35 Mk III Thirsty
Rose City YC
Portland, OR

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 6:16 PM, coltrek via CnC-List  wrote:

> Sounds like the area around your boat is dirty. That's the first thing I
> would be concerned with. Beyond that, try Woody Wax.
>
>
> Bill Coleman
> C 39
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: Rod Stright via CnC-List 
> Date: 11/22/17 15:40 (GMT-05:00)
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc: Rod Stright 
> Subject: Stus-List White non skid decks
>
> Just pressure washed the deck on my new to me C 99.  Man they look great
> but as soon as you step on the non skid it looks dirty and is difficult to
> clean. Anybody got any tips for keeping the white non skid decks clean
> and/or easier to clean?
>
>
>
> Rod
>
> 2004 C 99
>
>
> --
> [image: Avast logo]
> 
>
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> www.avast.com
> 
>
>
> <#m_-3654709156599117309_m_4636963980801547089_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> 

Re: Stus-List Lost at sea...um , yeah

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

>
> From: Marek Dziedzic 
> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" 
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 20:09:55 +
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Lost at sea...um , yeah
> I almost think that we give them too much attention
>
> Marek
>
>
Indeed. I was at the dentist today and when I mentioned I'm into sailing,
the dental hygienist asked if I had heard of the two lost sailors. And that
apparently they had some electronic gizmo ("epirb" I said).

When your dental hygienist has heard of them but probably never heard of
Clipper, America's Cup, or Slocum, it's definitely a bit ridiculous (how
easily manipulated the media and public attention are).
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Re: Stus-List Toilet lubrication

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I just did this project last week. Used SuperLube. (and yes, as Marek says
this is what Peggy Hall recommends - I borrowed her book from the library a
few weeks ago). The pump is smooth as butter now. You should be able to
push the handle with 2 fingers. I've used bowl additives before (oil or
West Marine toilet lube) and they weren't as effective and didn't last more
than a week or so.

The hardest part is getting the lube in. On a Raritan toilet you can't open
the pump from the top like the Jabsco. A Google search has tips on how to
do it:

https://www.google.com/search?safe=off=super+lube+raritan+toilet
The first result was useful to me:
http://commutercruiser.com/lubricating-a-raritan-phii-head/

-Patrick

On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 3:53 AM,  wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 3:32 PM, Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> If you listen to what Peggy Hall says, use Teflon-based thick grease
>> (SuperLube). Don’t put it into the bowl; rather, unscrew the  pump and put
>> it there from the back end. It should last a year  or so.
>>
>>
>>
>> Any oil in your holding tank would only create clogs.
>>
>>
>>
>> Compare e.g. this: https://forums.sailboatowners.
>> com/index.php?threads/peggy-using-canola-oil-in-marine-toile
>> t.187676/#post-1402530
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>> Marek
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Fred
>> Hazzard via CnC-List
>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 28, 2017 18:25
>> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
>> *Cc:* Fred Hazzard 
>> *Subject:* Stus-List Toilet lubrecation
>>
>>
>>
>> What are listers using to keep their toilets pumping freely?   The
>> manufacturer sells something, but suspect there is a generic cheaper
>> alternative.  I've used vegetable oil in the past, but that seems gum up
>> the pump.  A friend uses motor oil but I worry about it not being
>> compatible with the rubber parts.
>>
>>
>>
>> Fred Hazzard
>>
>> S/V Fury
>>
>> C 44
>>
>> Portland, Or
>>
>>
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October will be our fund raising month.  Please consider sending a small 
contribution to help keep this list running.  Use PayPal to send contribution 
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Re: Stus-List Perko sea strainer failed - almost lost my boat!

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Yikes. Is it a Perko like this one?
http://www.perko.com/images/catalog/product/xl/Fig%200493%20(Top%20On).jpg

I'm having a hard time visualizing how a single bolt failure could result
in a hole big enough to outpace a 800 gph pump.

Sounds like one of the wing nut bolts broke, but the other one was still
holding the lid torqued partially in place? Seems like a poor design. The
Groco design is nice because there's no way a threaded lid could
spontaneously fail -
https://fisheriessupply.scene7.com/is/image/FisheriesSupply/129443-groco-gro-arg-750-s-strainer-al1

Scary that it failed randomly rather than when you would expect a corroded
bolt to break (while torqueing the bolts during filter cleaning).

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 7:59 AM,  wrote:

> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Joel Aronson 
> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" 
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 10:24:34 -0400
> Subject: Stus-List Perko sea strainer failed - almost lost my boat!
> Yesterday as we were sailing back to the dock one of my crew yelled
> 'there's a lot of water down here'.  I opened the companionway steps and
> saw water coming out of the top of the sea strainer as the water was
> reaching the top of it.
>
> I closed the seacock and we manned the manual pump.  Once the water was
> below the floorboards we let the electric do its job.
>
> One of the arms that held the lid in place broke at the lower end.
> Luckily we were aboard and found the leak.  There was not excessive
> corrosion on the strainer, so I don't think the weakness could have been
> detected.  Time to re-think leaving seacocks open when I'm off the boat!
>
> --
> Joel
> 301 541 8551 <(301)%20541-8551>
>
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Re: Stus-List cleaning thru hulls.

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

They just look a little green? I would not clean that. Bronze naturally
oxidizes, and the green discoloration is normal - its natural eventual
state. It could even be protective
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze - "Typically
bronze only oxidizes superficially; once a copper oxide (eventually
becoming copper carbonate) layer is formed, the underlying metal is protected
from further corrosion
.")

Here's a good Cruisers Forum thread on it:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f55/bronze-cleaner-25162.html

By the way, you're probably asking about seacocks or sea valves. Thru hulls
are the part that goes thru the hull and is threaded into the seacock. If
you have proper flanged seacocks, then the thruhull shouldn't be visible at
all, except when you're hauled out (and even then it should be coated in
bottom paint).

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 4:51 PM,  wrote:
>
> From: Bev Parslow 
> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" 
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2017 23:25:14 + (UTC)
> Subject: Stus-List cleaning thru hulls.
> Does anyone have a cleaner for the bronze thru hulls? They seem to be
> rather corroded.
>
>
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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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Re: Stus-List Transmission ratio for LF38

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I believe my transmission is 2.14:1.  Not 100% sure, but when I had it
rebuilt two years ago I had someone check it and that's what they said it
was. Also I had considered replacement and they had 2.7:1's in stock but no
2.14:1.

Just curious where are you getting your new transmission? I had the
impression they were hard to find. Are you still in Fiji? I found your blog
but no updates since 2014 - would love to read if you decide to take it
back up.

I have a 3 blade 18" Autoprop. It provides good power, but we do lose
significant speed motoring upwind in 15 kts or more. It sounds like you
might be underprop'd a bit with the 2-blade 16".

My mechanic when I had the transmission rebuilt called the Autoprop
transmission killers. He was more a fan of MaxProp's and said they're more
common. Not sure if the "transmission killer" bit is true or not, but we
found a prior owner had misinstalled the transmission with a mismatched
shaft coupler (different size inner ring), so hoping that was the cause.

-Patrick
1984 LF 38
Seattle, WA

On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 3:51 PM,  wrote:
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Anthony Mitchell 
> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" 
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2017 09:33:19 +1200
> Subject: Stus-List Transmission ratio for LF38
> Unfortunately our ZF 15 MIV transmission needs replacement. The current
> gearbox has a 2.13:1 gear ration and I believe the gearbox has been
> replaced in the past. The owners manual for the LF38 says the ration should
> be 2.83:1. Our prop is a two blade 16" x 13" x 1-1/8" RH which more closely
> matches the specs for the LF35.
>
> Can any LF owners confirm their transmission ratio. I'm not certain that
> our gearbox is correct, and if we're purchasing a new one, it will be good
> to get it back to standard.
> We get along OK with the current setup but the performance is not
> outstanding to windward.
>
> Tony Mitchell
> SV Irish Melody,
> 1983 LF38 #150
> Vuda, Fiji
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Follow-up Regarding Dinghy Recommendations?

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

We have the 10' portabote too, and it seems to be the most popular. The 8'
is significantly smaller, but might be a good choice if you only intend to
have 2 people in it. The smaller the boat the easier it is to handle on
deck. I was surprised at how heavy the 10' is. I can "singlehand" assemble
and launch it, but just barely, and prefer to rarely do that.
I've never seen a 12' or 14'. 14' I would think is intended for people who
want to drive a fishing tender on their roof to lakes/rivers (you can see
on the portabote website that they market/sell for this purpose too).

The 10' can hold 4 adults and a 24 lb motor (3hp 2-stroke Kingfisher). Plus
a few bags of groceries and beer. The rated weight is a conservative
estimate. We only do this on flat water and we're definitely not planing
with a 3hp. But it's very stable.

Be careful about craigslist because older models had significantly
different design. 2-5 years old should be no problem though.

There are some negatives to the portabote, but they're relatively minor.
They're small projects to correct upon getting the boat, but not something
that would change my decision.

The aluminum collapsible oars are cheap and prone to corrosion, and one
snapped on my cruise this year. Replaced with West Marine aluminum
adjustable oars which look like they'll last longer.

The aluminum rivets they use on various parts of the boat are prone to
rusting or failing eventually, so I spray them with BoeShield. One rivet
failed on the motor mount, but was easily fixed by replacing with a
thrubolt.

The oar locks provided are dinky and make for frustrating rowing. They're
plastic, and not lockable (they pop up out of the sockets). Replaced with
aluminum oar locks that I can lock with a pin. This was a huge improvement
to rowing and we should've done it immediately rather than waiting a
season. SS oar locks would be worth it if you want to spring for the
slightly higher price.

Also, the seat pins are easy to lose, because PortaBote attaches them with
a length of thin rope which isn't knotted to the pin. I recommend knotting
the rope to the pin. They sold me two replacement pins for the ones I lost
for about $8-10.

Another project is building a lifting harness if you plan to deploy/hoist
to deck with it assembled.

-Patrick
1984 LF38, Seattle, WA

On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 7:42 AM,  wrote:
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Josh Muckley 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2017 14:41:34 +
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Follow-up Regarding Dinghy Recommendations?
> Mine is a 10'.  It is limited by rating to a 45lbs outboard and 3 people.
> Any longer and it would be a real bear to davit over the side with my short
> spin-pole.
>
> Josh
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 22, 2017, 8:01 AM Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> OK, so I like the idea of the Porta Boat given the ability to fold & stow
>> it on deck, as well as the reviews I have read.  So far, I have simply
>> found very few negative comments.  That said, I am going to try to find one
>> that I like on Craigslist and see if I can negotiate a test run on one
>> before I commit to it.
>>
>> Before I do that, they come in 8, 10, 12 and 14 foot models.  What length
>> would you recommend, and why?
>>
>> Thanks everyone for your help,
>>
>> Bruce Whitmore
>> 1994 C 37/40+ "Astralis"
>> (847) 404-5092 (mobile)
>> bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net
>>
>>
>> --
>> *From:* Nate Flesness via CnC-List 
>> *To:* "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" 
>> *Cc:* Nate Flesness 
>> *Sent:* Monday, August 21, 2017 8:26 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Dinghy Recommendations?
>>
>> voting for the keep-it-light philosophy, we're happy with a 27 lb. 1.2 HP
>> 30 year old Johnson/Evinrude that pushes an 8 ft Walker Bay with RID kit
>> much faster than I can row it. We once had a water-ski boat,and  I don't
>> need my dink to act like that. We have davits, but hand the motor down and
>> up - which is why 27 lbs is perfect. Bought one well used bur running fine
>> for $300. Only caveat is, the little motors have little carb jets, most
>> anything in the gas can cause trouble. I now fill the internal tank with a
>> filter paper in the funnel to remove very fine crud.
>>
>> Nate
>>
>> 1980 C 30-1
>> Tartan 31
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 12:24 PM, Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List <
>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> The last thing I want to do is to start "The Great Dinghy War".  [image:
>> *;) winking]
>>
>> That said, our '94 came with two outboards, one 6.5 hp Honda 4 stroke
>> mounted the the stern railing and an old Torqeedo.  Haven't even gotten
>> around to testing either one yet - too many other things on my list!  Thre
>> was a West Marine inflatable dinghy folded up under the v-berth, but the
>> floor had entirely peeled 

Re: Stus-List Dinghy on fordeck

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I couldn't help but chuckle at your description - that's a perfect
description of several times when I really regretted towing the dinghy and
should have had it stowed (folding PortaBote, so it stows nicely inside the
shrouds).

In those kind of wave conditions I think the dinghy should be stowed. Some
say that if you let out more painter (like 40' or more) to get the dinghy
riding on the right wave, it will do okay. That might work, but in steep,
close spaced waves like we get approaching some coasts (or in large tide
rips in wind against current situations), it won't. Riding on the transom
wake is impossible because the waves are confused, and if you have 6' waves
at 6 seconds (very close spaced), the timing will be too variable and the
dinghy will still plough into troughs and then race forward on crests.

Our dinghy doesn't flip or swamp fortunately, but when it starts going
sideways, the painter coming taut puts a huge jerking force onto it. We
lost a painter that way last month (actually a sheet bend knot in the
harness pulled out) but fortunately use a secondary painter with its own
harness as backup.

Good time to stow the dinghy is before you get into waves like that. Most
people avoid conditions like that, and in sounds it's quite rare, so that's
why generally a lot of people can tow probably 95-100% of the time.

-Patrick
'84 LF38
Seattle, WA


> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Josh Muckley 
> To: "C List" 
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2017 08:54:46 -0400
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Dinghy on fordeck
> So for those who tow, what is the preferred method?
>
> We towed an inflatable one time.  Had floating painter and made a bridle
> on the dink.  Tied straight to the stern rail station.  No bridle at the
> boat, not tied to the stern cleats.  The painter was roughly 20'.  In a
> following seas with 6 foot swells the dinghy would surge down the face of
> the wave catch up with the boat.  At one point it got up next to the boat
> and turned slightly perpendicular to the boat.  When the slack was pulled
> out of the painter, the force was sideways to the dinghy and was enough to
> flip it upside down.  It was painfully difficult to turn right side up.
> I've been hesitant to tow since.  I've seen others tow with a considerably
> shorter painter but with my reverse transom I would rather avoid having the
> dinghy bump or rub the back of the boat.
>
> Do you keep an outboard on the dinghy while towing?
>
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk
> 1989 C 37+
> Solomons, MD
>
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Deck creaking mystery + spider cracking at stanchions

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

It's very common to have spider web cracking in the gelcoat (and maybe into
the fiberglass) on old boats around the stanchions. It doesn't necessarily
mean water is getting into the core, but it's good to investigate, which it
sounds like you're doing.

Many surveyors will say they found voids (air pockets in the layup) or even
wet core, without really explaining the meaning of that (to a new boat
owner) or the severity. Have you asked the surveyor how he determined the
deck was wet and approximately what size area it was? A good surveyor would
be able to tell you that (and would've already included it in the written
report ideally).

If you can send some pictures that would help. Hard to speculate too much
without seeing it.

You're right that the deck within a few inches of the hull-deck joint is
solid fiberglass, so you don't need to worry about deck penetrations there.
I did a writeup on cored/non-cored sections of the deck for the LF38
(caveat: every boat is different, not guaranteed to be the same for all)
here: https://svviolethour.com/2016/01/26/rebedding-on-a-cc-landfall-38/

Those things may be obvious to many here, but as a new boat owner,
identifying every cored vs non-cored area on the boat and which ones to
worry about was not obvious at all and took me about a year.

Not sure what to think of the creaking while jumping fore/aft of the
chainplates. Depends on how hard you're jumping. :) It could mean any of a
number of things.

-Patrick
1984 LF38

On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 8:54 AM,  wrote:
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Chris Hobson 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 08:43:50 -0700
> Subject: Stus-List Deck creaking mystery + spider cracking at stanchions
> The surveyor found what he said was wet deck near a stanchion aft of the
> shrouds, at the base are spider-cracks. I’ve sounded that area of the deck
> myself, measured with a moisture meter and found nothing notable - but I’m
> no expert.
>
> I even drilled a pilot hole down below to see if water was in the core
> from the underside and it's dry as a bone. Which tells me the spider
> cracking around the base of the stanchion is compromising the integrity of
> the top layer. And if you put pressure on it it flexes. But so do other
> stanchions. Also there’s about 4-5” of solid fibreglass from the hull/deck
> joint around the entire perimeter of the boat which takes up about 60% of
> the area where the spider cracks emanate out from. I might grind it out and
> re-epoxy.
>
> Also when I jump up and down forward/aft of the chainplates there’s
> creaking. The only thing I can connect it with is the teak woodwork down
> below where it meets the deck is perhaps rubbing. Otherwise it’s pretty
> sound and there’s no obvious flexing on the deck other than at the
> stanchion.
>
> Anyone else have a squeaky deck? And I assume that any and all of this is
> pretty much on par with a boat of this vintage. I just like the idea that
> it’s something I can resolve.
>
> Chris Hobson
> S/V Going
> 1980 C MKI
> Hull 615
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Can't close the v-berth door

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I wouldn't say that's the opposite problem, that's the same as my
situation. Maybe you were referencing a couple of the other posts though
where they had the frame/door issue at the top/bottom edges.

My feeling is it doesn't indicate a serious issue, but you should check
bulkheads and rig just to be sure. I think it probably doesn't take much
flex to close the relatively tight tolerance gaps in bulkhead doorways
(~1/8"). Plus the bulkheads may not have been perfectly cut to the contour
of the hull to begin with. Wood is flexy. Not so much longitudinally
usually, but 1/8" over an 8' section is only 0.13% compression.
Deck-stepped masts can still have flex-related issues, and I'd think it's
harder to counteract the pressure on the deck than it is on the keel.

Welcome to the list! I think you're the first C I've heard of from
Finland.

On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 10:18 AM, Matti Airas <mai...@iki.fi> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> (Cheers, I'm new to the list - I got a 1980 C 36 a year ago in May and
> have been sailing and fixing/improving her since. Calling from Helsinki,
> Finland.)
>
> It's kinda funny, I have an opposite problem. The V-berth door doesn't
> close when the shrouds are tightened, but that's because the door frame
> gets too narrow. The difference between having a deck-stepped and a
> keel-stepped mast, I reckon. :-)
>
> I've been wondering is that nothing to be concerned about or does that
> indicate an issue with the bulkheads? They shouldn't easily compress at
> all, anyway.
>
> Best,
>
> Matti
>
> On 10 August 2017 at 21:43, Patrick Davin via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> I've had this (minor) issue over a year where we can't fully close the
>> v-berth door on our Landfall 38.
>>
>> At first I thought it was just due to heat expansion of the wood in the
>> summer, but it started roughly after I tightened the main shrouds a couple
>> turns (due to masthead fall off in higher winds). And this winter when I
>> had the mast out for rerig I noticed the v-berth door closed fine.
>>
>> Is this just normal flex for C's?  Anyone else had this issue?
>>
>> It's binding at the door jamb and the lower right half of the door. I
>> tried to check the bulkhead to hull and deck joints, but it's hard to
>> inspect those much since they're covered by a permanent liner.
>>
>> Releasing backstay tension doesn't help. So I suspect it's the fwd lowers
>> or main shrouds that flex the hull the tiny amount needed to squeeze the
>> door frame. I double checked that the tie rods are adequately tensioned and
>> there's no upward inflexion of the deck at the U-bolts.
>>
>> The only thing I can think to do would be to sand down the lower half of
>> the door edge and revarnish it.
>>
>> -Patrick
>> 1984 C Landfall 38
>> Seattle, WA
>>
>>
>> ___
>>
>> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
>> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
>> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>>
>> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>>
>>
>
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Re: Stus-List Can't close the v-berth door

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

That's a good idea, and not something I would've thought of probably. I had
already tried tightening the screws on the hinges, since sometimes those
loosen up.

The port side of my door (hinge side) has about 1/16" - 1/8" clearance, so
there's room to recess the hinges a bit. I'll have to form a recess for
both halves of the hinge - ie, the hinges have one part on the frame and
two parts on the door, I'll need to carve a recess for the two parts on the
door to seat into the frame. Thanks for the tip.

-Patrick

-- Forwarded message --
> From: john sandford 
> To: "'Patrick Davin'" , cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 18:33:27 -0300
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Can't close the v-berth door
>
> I have the same problem when the shrouds are tensioned to 17ish%
>
> I recessed the hinges into the frame, which moved the door <>3/16 to Stbd
> and allows closing.
>
> Same problem with the aft cabin door.
>
> If I slack the rig enough to close the doors, its scary sailing with the
> leeward stuff just flopping around. So I dont
>
>
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Can't close the v-berth door

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Interesting. I inspected my mast step closely when the mast was out, since
I know some LF38s have had that issue. Mine looked okay. Dennis when your
head door was stuck, was it binding at the top and bottom edges of the
door?  Given your cabin roof was being pushed down I imagine that's what
would happen. My v-berth door is binding at the sides - the bottom 3 feet -
so that makes me think it's due to horizontal squeezing of the hull.

I know some flex / compression is natural from the forces of the rig on all
sailboats, more so on more flexy boats than on older solid fiberglass
boats. The LF38 has no deck tie downs at the fwd bulkhead, just the aft
bulkhead. So I'm wondering whether that lack of deck tie downs allows the
hull to flex more at that fwd section.

-Patrick


> -- Forwarded message --
> From: "Dennis C." <capt...@gmail.com>
> To: CnClist <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 14:08:47 -0500
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Can't close the v-berth door
> Years ago, I installed a hydraulic backstay adjuster on Touche'.  Hot
> dog!  Picked the boat up from the yard and went out on the lake to try it
> out.  Cranked it down and, oops, the head door wouldn't open.  Temporary
> boat rule:  nobody uses the head going upwind.  Downwind, backstay off,
> door opened fine.
>
> Didn't take long to discover deteriorated mast step.  Tightened the rig,
> the mast was driven downward into the boat.  The turning blocks on the mast
> pushed the collar down, deformed the cabin roof and bound up the head door.
>
> Rebuilt mast step solved issue.
>
> Your experience may be different.
>
> Dennis C.
> Touche' 35-1 #83
> Mandeville, LA
>
> On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 1:43 PM, Patrick Davin via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> I've had this (minor) issue over a year where we can't fully close the
>> v-berth door on our Landfall 38.
>>
>> At first I thought it was just due to heat expansion of the wood in the
>> summer, but it started roughly after I tightened the main shrouds a couple
>> turns (due to masthead fall off in higher winds). And this winter when I
>> had the mast out for rerig I noticed the v-berth door closed fine.
>>
>> Is this just normal flex for C's?  Anyone else had this issue?
>>
>> It's binding at the door jamb and the lower right half of the door. I
>> tried to check the bulkhead to hull and deck joints, but it's hard to
>> inspect those much since they're covered by a permanent liner.
>>
>> Releasing backstay tension doesn't help. So I suspect it's the fwd lowers
>> or main shrouds that flex the hull the tiny amount needed to squeeze the
>> door frame. I double checked that the tie rods are adequately tensioned and
>> there's no upward inflexion of the deck at the U-bolts.
>>
>> The only thing I can think to do would be to sand down the lower half of
>> the door edge and revarnish it.
>>
>> -Patrick
>> 1984 C Landfall 38
>> Seattle, WA
>>
>>
>> ___
>>
>> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
>> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
>> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>>
>> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>>
>>
>
> ___
> CnC-List mailing list
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
>
>
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Stus-List Can't close the v-berth door

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I've had this (minor) issue over a year where we can't fully close the
v-berth door on our Landfall 38.

At first I thought it was just due to heat expansion of the wood in the
summer, but it started roughly after I tightened the main shrouds a couple
turns (due to masthead fall off in higher winds). And this winter when I
had the mast out for rerig I noticed the v-berth door closed fine.

Is this just normal flex for C's?  Anyone else had this issue?

It's binding at the door jamb and the lower right half of the door. I tried
to check the bulkhead to hull and deck joints, but it's hard to inspect
those much since they're covered by a permanent liner.

Releasing backstay tension doesn't help. So I suspect it's the fwd lowers
or main shrouds that flex the hull the tiny amount needed to squeeze the
door frame. I double checked that the tie rods are adequately tensioned and
there's no upward inflexion of the deck at the U-bolts.

The only thing I can think to do would be to sand down the lower half of
the door edge and revarnish it.

-Patrick
1984 C Landfall 38
Seattle, WA
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Re: Stus-List mast gate

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I ordered a mast gate from mastgates.com this June before departing on our
summer cruise. I don't want to dissuade you from them yet because the jury
is still out (I'm working with Tom to hopefully get it to work) but I
haven't been able to make it usable yet.

The design and installation of the mast gate is more complex than I
expected, and basically if you don't very precisely position the metal, the
sail slugs will just pull right out, or get stuck. This is very
inconvenient when reefing in 20 kts with steep confused waves (wind against
current in a Strait).

Apparently the order packer sent the wrong kind of rivets with my mast
gate, so Tom sent the correct ones which I'll try out in August now that
we're back. He prefers plastic reusable rivets over tapping machine
screws.  I'm not sure the new rivets are going to fix the issue though,
because the thin SS plates are difficult to shape correctly to the mast
slot, and they're fairly distorted now from the hammering (which you're
supposed to do to shape them) and sail slides ripping out.

His design was custom fit to the 7" long slot of the LF38 mast, but the
relatively flimsy SS flexes or bends a bit in the middle which can result
in slugs pulling out. The instructions also require dremeling away some of
the aluminum lip of the mast's slot, to get the gate to fit snugger, which
is a bit of a tricky process to do precisely.

Tom has offered to make a new top cover plate though which might be better.

-Patrick
1984 LF 38
Seattle, WA



> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Eric Frank 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 07:59:42 -0400
> Subject: Re: Stus-List mast gate
> Bill,
> I installed a mast gate from Tom Luque at mastgate.com in 2013. At that
> time he was making them of quite thin SS, for use in smaller boats, and it
> bent when I put in a double reef on the main.  So had a friend machine a
> beefier one from aluminum and that has worked well. Tom was interested in
> the design, so I sent him the design drawings and a picture:
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/wobu6jod6x9lonb/MastTrack.pdf?dl=0
>
> Tom recently started fabricating them using my design and I think is
> making them with a 3D printer - don’t know the material. I can send you the
> drawings I made with all the dimensions, and that would be right for your
> boat as our boats are identical - CC35 MkII.
>
> Eric Frank
> Cat's Paw
> Mattapoisett, MA
>
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Re: Stus-List BlackWatch - C 39 - world tour

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Not sure how many CnC listers are following the svblackwatch blog, but I
just wanted to highlight they recently got to the Marquesas:
https://svblackwatch.wordpress.com/2017/06/01/marquesas-islands/

Congrats!!! That's a really awesome accomplishment.

-Patrick

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 9:24 AM, Adam Trackracer 
wrote:

> I got a 1988 Scanmar monitor Windvane for cheap and worked with Scanmar
> and a welder to get it back to modern spec.  Used that for half the trip
> until it was too light (<8) and then used my raymarine wheel pilot.  The
> wheel pilot isn't supposed to be used with my heavy boat but it's done fine
> so long as It's pretty Calm or motoring.  Also have a tiller pilot that I
> mount straight to the spokes on the wheel, that works great for calm
> conditions too and is very cheap.
>
> I'll try and write a bit about all the projects;
>
> Autopilot systems
> Solar & batteries
> Steering system rebuild
> Propeller
> Ssb
> Interior rebuild
> Windlass/anchor
> Bimini
> Engine overhaul (yanmar 3gm30)
>
> Missing some other stuff but It took 5months non stop to get ready
>
> Thanks!
> Adam
>
>
>
> On Sep 12, 2016, at 7:15 AM, Patrick Davin  wrote:
>
> Congrats on the successful passage! I'm subscribed now and look forward to
> more.
>
> From the project pics it looks like you did a lot in only a year. Too bad
> the blog wasn't started earlier - would be great to hear about some of
> those.
> What kind of wind vane do you have? I saw it in the pictures but couldn't
> recognize the brand. I take it you don't have an electric autopilot and
> used that exclusively?
>
> -Patrick
> S/V Violet Hour, Seattle, WA
> '84 C LF38
>
>
>> On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 7:28 PM, Adam Trackracer via CnC-List > cnc-list.com > 
>> wrote:
>>
>> >* Thought you guys might like this,  me and my girl are sailin to the South
>> *>* Pacific and beyond on our 1973 C, took me a while to find a 39
>> *>* (favorite c) I'll post projects and picks, ask me anything,  peace.
>> *>>* Svblackwatch.wordpress.com 
>> *>
>>
>>
>
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Re: Stus-List C MK1 Top-O-the_Mast

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Hi,

I did that just a few months ago! You're right that you need to be careful
about twisting the cover plate because it can shear off. I broke one that
way but fixed it by just drilling the cover plate back on to the mast. You
can read my blog posts about it here (search for sheaves):
https://svviolethour.com/2017/01/07/rerig-part-2-pulling-the-mast/
https://svviolethour.com/2017/01/16/rerig-part-3-now-the-projects-really-begin/
And see the beautiful sheaves I got from Zephyrworks at the end of this
post:
https://svviolethour.com/2017/01/29/rerig-part-4-stuck-navtec-u-bolt-chainplates/

tldr: for a really stuck sheave pin, drilling a punch hole from the
opposing end was the way to go. I only made a small hole (1/4"?) and filled
it with 4200 after to prevent water ingress.

-Patrick
1984 C LF 38
Seattle, WA

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 5:30 AM,  wrote:

> From: Cleverboy 
> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" 
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 12:21:53 +
> Subject: Stus-List C MK1 Top-O-the_Mast
>
> I'm having a problem with replacing the sheaves at the of of my C 30
> mast. The axles don't go all the way through so they can't be pushed out.
> They are held in place with an attached cover piece over one end. I got it
> to move a little but was afraid of destroying the cover piece and totally
> ruining the axle. Tried PB Blaster to move things along. I was thinking of
> drilling a hole opposite and pushing out the axle. How have others handled
> this?
>
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Re: Stus-List Window replacement

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

[Resend due to embedded photo (not mine) that caused list to auto-block due
to size]:

Oh, so your exterior screws were just wood screws screwed into the cabin
trunk? Is there coring there? (I'm hoping not).  I'm skeptical of Don
Casey's theory that bolts or screws were used in surface mount
installations just to hold the pane in place while the sealant cures. If
they just needed something to hold it in place, one would think a big clamp
would've done the trick. Maybe it's simply a change in theory/opinion on
window security, or perhaps VHB didn't exist in the early 80's.

Here are a few pics of what I have:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxfHpwssU_6NcU92OHFhU1p6b00

Since I have thru-bolts, and no other LF38s seem to have them, my theory
has been that a prior owner installed them because the boat was being
prepared to go offshore. But maybe C did it and the screws vs thrubolts
was just a factory difference or a change they made over the years.

-Patrick


> On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 9:26 AM, Paul E  wrote:
>
>> Patrick,
>>
>> I didn’t have any thru-bolts, just exterior screws with finish washers.
>> I did fill in all imperfections with expo/thickened epoxy.   Below is an
>> inside view (not a very clear one) of a port.
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>> On May 23, 2017, at 11:22 AM, Patrick Davin  wrote:
>>
>> Paul,
>>
>> What did you do about the thru-bolt holes on the inside of your cabin?
>> Did you fill or cover those in any way?  Are the leftover holes really
>> ugly?
>>
>> I had *thought* that the thru-bolted windows on my LF38 were a feature /
>> desirable attribute (for offshore strength) and that C had just done the
>> adhered windows on the more racery boats (37+) because they don't have the
>> port strength concern.  But reading Don Casey's article you linked, it
>> sounds like the thru-bolts may actually be a liability, because they cause
>> cracking when the plastic expands or the boat flexes.  If Don Casey thinks
>> VHB is strong enough for offshore then I can probably trust him since he's
>> usually conservative in terms of safety factors.
>>
>> I'll probably do this project in the next year. I was planning to keep
>> the thru-bolts but if they're not necessary that will make my wife happy
>> because she hates the look inside (ours don't even have cap nuts, just
>> nylocks).
>>
>> -Patrick
>> 1984 C LF38
>> Seattle, WA
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Window replacement

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Paul,

What did you do about the thru-bolt holes on the inside of your cabin?  Did
you fill or cover those in any way?  Are the leftover holes really ugly?

I had *thought* that the thru-bolted windows on my LF38 were a feature /
desirable attribute (for offshore strength) and that C had just done the
adhered windows on the more racery boats (37+) because they don't have the
port strength concern.  But reading Don Casey's article you linked, it
sounds like the thru-bolts may actually be a liability, because they cause
cracking when the plastic expands or the boat flexes.  If Don Casey thinks
VHB is strong enough for offshore then I can probably trust him since he's
usually conservative in terms of safety factors.

I'll probably do this project in the next year. I was planning to keep the
thru-bolts but if they're not necessary that will make my wife happy
because she hates the look inside (ours don't even have cap nuts, just
nylocks).

-Patrick
1984 C LF38
Seattle, WA

On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 5:27 AM,  wrote:

> On 2017-04-25 2:18 PM, Dreuge via CnC-List wrote:
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> I installed new ports via VHB tape and Dow 795 using Krylon Fusion to make
> a bonding mask.   The link to my write up is below.  As already mentioned,
> the mask provides a nice finished edge hiding the underlying tape and
> sealant.   I don’t recall the source, but I have read that the Krylon
> Fusion acts like a bonding primer for the Dow 795 promoting adhesion. (Dow
> actually sells a clear RTV primer, see Dow PR-1200 )   There are reports
> from folks on sailing sites who have tested the bonding with and without a
> Fusion mask, and they report no loss of adhesion.  That stated, if you go
> with a Fusion mask, then one thin coat is all that is need and likely
> better than a thicker coat.   But to be honest, I think the greatest
> detriment to adhesion are your fingers.  Don’t touch the bonding surface,
> be it Fusion paint or not.  And just before inserting the port, give the
> surface mounted area one last wipe down with isopropyl and let dry.
>
>
> http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/search/label/NewPorts
>
> -
> Paul E.
> 1981 C 38 Landfall
> S/V Johanna Rose
> Fort Walton, FL
>
> http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Options for getting rid of sails

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Discussed on CruisersForum last week:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f2/what-to-do-with-old-sail-181547.html

On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 8:03 PM,  wrote:

> From: Kevin Paxton 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2017 02:26:16 +
> Subject: Stus-List Options for getting rid of sails
> Hey everyone,
> I have a number of head sails that I need to get rid of. I was wondering
> if any one knew of other consignment or places to sell used sails to. I'm​
> in the Chesapeake Bay area and know of Bacon's. I was actually there today
> having them take a look at them. But I was wondering if there was anywhere
> else to get a second opinion on value or a better deal than just 50% of
> sale price.
>
>  A couple that need to be disposed of that aren't useful anymore as well.
> Anywhere that may recycle or something besides just throwing away?
>
> Thanks
> Kevin
>
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Re: Stus-List internal rudder structure?

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Do you mean what was done around the rudder stock to prevent water
intrusion?

One suggestion I had from a surveyor was to just dremel out a small bevel
around it and inject a flexible epoxy like GFlex. That would be the
quick-and-dirty DIY fix.

But since I was already paying a fiberglasser (to repair the void, and
because I'm not skilled enough or motivated enough to do that kind of
fiberglass work myself yet), he did it his way, which was probably better.

I don't have all the specifics but I believe what he did was ground off the
paint + fiberglass from the top edge of the rudder and then relaid
fiberglass over the top edge and around the stock. You can kind of see that
in the last two pictures.

-Patrick

On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 4:22 PM, David Paine  wrote:

> Thank very much!That's helpful.  I shall study this a bit more but
> it's approximately what I am planning to do.   How did you deal thje rudder
> stock?
>
> On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 7:17 PM, Patrick Davin  wrote:
>
>> When the yard did this for me last year, they just used a ~3" hole saw
>> and aimed for a couple inches aft of the rudder stock. You don't really
>> need a diagram because you know where the rudder stock is, and with a small
>> amount of luck will find it on the first try. Do the hole on the upper 1/3
>> of the rudder, since you don't know how far down the stock extends, but
>> know it's surely present in the upper third.
>> If you're a half inch away from the weld and can't quite see it, you can
>> go digging in the foam with a screwdriver.
>>
>> It turns out I didn't put pictures of it in my blog post (but there is
>> some discussion of related items, so may still be of interest):
>> https://svviolethour.com/2016/05/03/this-years-
>> haul-out-dropping-the-rudder/
>>
>> I have plenty of pictures though, I can drop a few in a shared folder:
>> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0BxfHpwssU_6NSnFycEti
>> VW9lTDg?usp=sharing
>>
>> The lower hole was drilled to probe a void we found where the skin had
>> delaminated from the foam. The later pictures show the work the fiberglass
>> guy did filling the holes, void, and resealing around the stock.
>>
>> -Patrick
>> 1984 C LF38
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 3:20 PM,  wrote:
>>
>>> From: David Paine 
>>> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
>>> Cc:
>>> Bcc:
>>> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 18:18:50 -0400
>>> Subject: Stus-List internal rudder structure?
>>> I know that my rudder leaks and, every year I drill a drain hole to
>>> empty it.   Rusty water comes out.   Of course I will do my best to seal
>>> the rudder post where it enters the rudder but I am toying with the idea of
>>> cutting into my C 33-I's rudder to examine the state of the weld that
>>> holds the internal stainless steel "fin" to the rudder post.  I have a
>>> vague idea of what it looks like, but I'd like to minimize the size of the
>>> window that I cut into the rudder skin to examine the weld.  This means
>>> that a dimensional diagram that shows the stainless steel internal
>>> structure of the rudder would be ... most excellent!Does anyone on the
>>> list have such a diagram?
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: Stus-List internal rudder structure?

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

When the yard did this for me last year, they just used a ~3" hole saw and
aimed for a couple inches aft of the rudder stock. You don't really need a
diagram because you know where the rudder stock is, and with a small amount
of luck will find it on the first try. Do the hole on the upper 1/3 of the
rudder, since you don't know how far down the stock extends, but know it's
surely present in the upper third.
If you're a half inch away from the weld and can't quite see it, you can go
digging in the foam with a screwdriver.

It turns out I didn't put pictures of it in my blog post (but there is some
discussion of related items, so may still be of interest):
https://svviolethour.com/2016/05/03/this-years-haul-out-dropping-the-rudder/

I have plenty of pictures though, I can drop a few in a shared folder:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0BxfHpwssU_6NSnFycEtiVW9lTDg?usp=sharing

The lower hole was drilled to probe a void we found where the skin had
delaminated from the foam. The later pictures show the work the fiberglass
guy did filling the holes, void, and resealing around the stock.

-Patrick
1984 C LF38

On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 3:20 PM,  wrote:

> From: David Paine 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 18:18:50 -0400
> Subject: Stus-List internal rudder structure?
> I know that my rudder leaks and, every year I drill a drain hole to empty
> it.   Rusty water comes out.   Of course I will do my best to seal the
> rudder post where it enters the rudder but I am toying with the idea of
> cutting into my C 33-I's rudder to examine the state of the weld that
> holds the internal stainless steel "fin" to the rudder post.  I have a
> vague idea of what it looks like, but I'd like to minimize the size of the
> window that I cut into the rudder skin to examine the weld.  This means
> that a dimensional diagram that shows the stainless steel internal
> structure of the rudder would be ... most excellent!Does anyone on the
> list have such a diagram?
>
> Best,
>
> David
>
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Re: Stus-List Climbing the mast solo

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Here's how I do it:
https://svviolethour.com/2015/04/22/how-to-climb-the-mast-solo-part-2/

https://svviolethour.com/2015/02/28/cleaning-the-boat-climbing-the-mast/
 (earlier post with my first attempt; part 2 above has more details)

There are many different ways to do it. One of my goals was doing it
cheaply, with equipment I mostly already had. If you're willing to spend
some $$$, ATN mastclimber might be easier.

-Patrick
1984 C LF38

On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 9:00 AM,  wrote:

> From: Ryan Doyle 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 11:01:15 -0400
> Subject: Stus-List Climbing the mast solo
> Hi All,
>
> I need to replace the radar dome on my mizzenmast this weekend.  It's
> about 22' up.  I'm in solid shape and can climb without a problem.
> However, I have never climbed a mast before, and I have to do this work
> alone.  I'm curious if anyone here has suggestions for doing this safely.
> Is it possible, or should I call in a professional?
>
> I'll be down on the eastern shore of the Chesapeake, so I'm sure I could
> find someone, but I'd rather learn to do this myself and I'd rather spend $
> on mast climbing equipment than on a pro.  I'm sure this won't be the last
> time I have to do this.
>
> Any advice is appreciated.
>
> Thanks so much.
>
> Ryan
> Juniper - 1983 Pearson 424 Ketch
> (Former 1976 C 30)
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
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Re: Stus-List Exterior Teak Varnish Recommendation?

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Just curious, why would you want to do 5 coats of Cetol followed by 3 coats
of Cetol Gloss?

The instructions on the can recommend 3 coats followed by 1 gloss, or 2
gloss if 1 gloss isn't satisfactory. But 8 coats is something I've only
ever heard of for varnish, and the lower # of coats required with Cetol is
one of its primary advantages.

4 coats on handrails last year took me quite a while, so I can't imagine
wanting to do 8!

-Patrick

On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 1:54 PM,  wrote:

> From: RANDY 
> To: cnc-list 
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 18:53:08 + (UTC)
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Exterior Teak Varnish Recommendation?
> Thank you all for the responses and recommendations.
>
> For better or worse I've decided to go with Sikkens Cetol Natural Teak
> followed by Sikkens Cetol Gloss; probably five coats of the former and
> three coats of the latter initially.  Factors in my decision included
> recommendations from this list, expected look, reported durability, price
> (my second choice, Awlwood MA, is a comparatively expensive system),
> and effort to use properly.  This season I will also clean up other
> exterior teak besides the new handrails, and treat it with the same Cetol
> treatment after cleaning.
>
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Re: Stus-List Rod rigging.

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=180436

Wow, that's a sad day for boats with rod rigging. Having one distributor /
manufacturer of rod isn't good for competitiveness and ease of
availability. My BSI order is going on 7 weeks now, and 2-3 months since we
first gave them initial specs.

Not saying it would always take that long, but if it does and you broke a
shroud, 2-3 month wait time could knock out an entire sailing season!

-Patrick
1984 C LF38

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 6:34 AM,  wrote:

> From: Kevin Paxton 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 14:22:27 +
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Rod rigging.
> I just saw something on sailing-anarchy that said that it's just the US
> side of NavTec that is closing up.
>
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Re: Stus-List Rod rigging.

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

What do you mean by "did Navtec go to a different option because of the
dissimilar metals issue?"  Different option than what?

The ball under the Navtang cap that you're referring to is actually a
"stemball washer". I assume you're referring to the cup-like washer that
seats below the stemball, inside the Navtang cap.
Sometimes also called a stemball seat. I assume you're not talking about
the stemball itself, because if your rods were cut, then the stemball isn't
relevant or reusable.
If you just need a stemball washer, that's pretty easy - anyone who reheads
the rod will be able get one. You'll need to give them the Navtang cups.

The through bolt was aluminum on older Navtangs but they switched to SS on
newer models (sometimes around '82/83 I believe, so you probably have
aluminum). The dissimiliar metal there isn't the big issue (except when
getting the tang apart), the issue is that aluminum corrodes quicker and
can get eaten up by wire halyards that they had back in the day.

You need to talk to a rigger who does Navtec or BSI orders. My BSI order is
finally arriving this week.

-Patrick
1984 C Landfall 38

On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 1:02 PM,  wrote:

> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Steve 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 15:50:20 -0500
> Subject: Stus-List Rod rigging.
> My newly acquired 1980 CNC 36 had the heads cut off of the intermediate
> shrouds. In trying to get them re-headed I discovered I'm missing 1 ball
> from under the cap. The through bolt needs replacing as well as possibly
> the caps. Question is, did Navtec go to a different option because of the
> dissimilar metals issue? Suggestions please?
> Sent from my iPhone
>
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Re: Stus-List Pulling rod chainplate backing block on LF38

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Progress! Just to follow up in case anyone's interested or for future
reference, I managed to get one U-Bolt out. I wrote a blog post on the
methods and results:
https://svviolethour.com/2017/01/29/rerig-part-4-stuck-navtec-u-bolt-chainplates/

tldr: Lots of heat plus a 24" pry bar / breaker bar.

I found an Ericson owner who used a similar method - shroud tension plus
heat. He thinks shroud tension was around 1000 lbs, but he had 3/8" Navtec
u-bolts. Using a lever arm calculator, I calculated the upward force it
took on my 1/2" bolts was around 2000 lbs.

Interesting aspects once I got it out: lots of aluminum corrosion dust from
the backing block, but the SS was spotless. Bedded in butyl, not silicone.
And the deck core here was not wood! Some kind of hard composite I don't
recognize - light orange / peachy in color. Very good news because the core
is pristine.

I doubt it's an epoxy coring from a prior owner (since A) it's doesn't look
like epoxy, and B) the bolts looked like they'd never been pulled). Around
each U-Bolt the deck has square area about 8"x8" where it's clear something
different was inserted between the fiberglass. I thought it was marine ply,
but I guess they could've used some kind of board of composite or plastic.

The one question I haven't figured out yet is, if the U-bolts were not
leaking (I've never observed water from them, even in heavy rains), how did
the aluminum corrosion happen? I suspect small moisture over time (interior
cabin moisture?  Or small amounts getting in from deck while under sail
when the u-bolts are under flexion / tension?) contributed to it. Just need
a small amount of moisture to get a galvanic medium on the less noble
aluminum next to the SS. The material loss is insignificant however.

-Patrick
1984 C LF38

On Sun, Jan 22, 2017 at 6:44 PM, Patrick Davin <jda...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I haven't had any luck unfortunately. I'm probably going to give up for
> now and put it back together. It sounds like only about 2 LF38 owners on
> this list have pulled their rod U-bolts, so I guess it's a less common
> thing than I expected.
>
> I put about 6-8 hours into one U-bolt over 2 weeks, spraying the aluminum
> backing block with vinegar 5-10 times, PB Blaster 3-4 times, BoatLife
> Release 2-3 times. I hammered in a paint scraper on the 2 accessible sides,
> and then hammered in a cold chisel on one side. That opened a bit of a gap,
> but it was starting to tear into the fiberglass. I hammered upwards on the
> thrubolts too but the access isn't very good. Also heated with a heat gun
> until PB Blaster started smoking.
>
> There's no way to inject stuff from above deck because the U-bolt plate is
> completely flush with the deck - I can't even get a razor blade in. Unless
> I sanded off the deck paint perhaps.
>
> I put some pictures here: https://drive.google.
> com/drive/folders/0BxfHpwssU_6NTlRNbXUtSHAtaWc?usp=sharing
>
> I'm half way tempted to just leave the nuts loosened by 1/8 of an inch and
> go sailing in 10 knots or so on a few tacks once the rig is back. I bet
> that might loosen it up. Or maybe just tensioning to 1000-2000 lbs would do
> it.
>
> -Patrick
> 1984 C LF38
>
> On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Patrick Davin <jda...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks. I'll try the vinegar technique. I also have some BoatLife
>> Release, but was hesitant to try that because the seam will be difficult to
>> inject into, and the Release chemical is fairly toxic I believe.
>>
>> I have no leaking from above deck, so I probably won't be able to inject
>> anything from above. I'm only opening / inspecting to confirm it's not
>> leaking, and because I have the mast out now.
>>
>> I too had some white dust float down when I loosened the threaded rod.
>>
>> I'll try tapping up on the bolts too.
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 9:19 AM, Bruno Lachance <
>> bruno_lacha...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Patrick,
>>>
>>> I have faced the same kind of problem on my boat. It is not exactly the
>>> same style of chainplate, but the 33 mkII does have the same aluminum
>>> backing block, and it was not moving. I initially tried the wedge, the
>>> hammer... With no success. There was some white powder visible, sign of
>>> aluminum corrosion. I finally had success with white vinegar, injected with
>>> a syringe where I can, from the top of the deck and from below, and a
>>> soaked rag taped around the block. I repeated this procedure twice and
>>> wait... The day after, I was able to separate everything with a small tap
>>> on the bolt, clean and reassemble with good quality butyl. I was happy to
>>> find that the core was not exposed around the chainplate.
>&

Re: Stus-List Pulling rod chainplate backing block on LF38

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I haven't had any luck unfortunately. I'm probably going to give up for now
and put it back together. It sounds like only about 2 LF38 owners on this
list have pulled their rod U-bolts, so I guess it's a less common thing
than I expected.

I put about 6-8 hours into one U-bolt over 2 weeks, spraying the aluminum
backing block with vinegar 5-10 times, PB Blaster 3-4 times, BoatLife
Release 2-3 times. I hammered in a paint scraper on the 2 accessible sides,
and then hammered in a cold chisel on one side. That opened a bit of a gap,
but it was starting to tear into the fiberglass. I hammered upwards on the
thrubolts too but the access isn't very good. Also heated with a heat gun
until PB Blaster started smoking.

There's no way to inject stuff from above deck because the U-bolt plate is
completely flush with the deck - I can't even get a razor blade in. Unless
I sanded off the deck paint perhaps.

I put some pictures here:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0BxfHpwssU_6NTlRNbXUtSHAtaWc?usp=sharing

I'm half way tempted to just leave the nuts loosened by 1/8 of an inch and
go sailing in 10 knots or so on a few tacks once the rig is back. I bet
that might loosen it up. Or maybe just tensioning to 1000-2000 lbs would do
it.

-Patrick
1984 C LF38

On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Patrick Davin <jda...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks. I'll try the vinegar technique. I also have some BoatLife Release,
> but was hesitant to try that because the seam will be difficult to inject
> into, and the Release chemical is fairly toxic I believe.
>
> I have no leaking from above deck, so I probably won't be able to inject
> anything from above. I'm only opening / inspecting to confirm it's not
> leaking, and because I have the mast out now.
>
> I too had some white dust float down when I loosened the threaded rod.
>
> I'll try tapping up on the bolts too.
>
> On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 9:19 AM, Bruno Lachance <bruno_lacha...@hotmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> Patrick,
>>
>> I have faced the same kind of problem on my boat. It is not exactly the
>> same style of chainplate, but the 33 mkII does have the same aluminum
>> backing block, and it was not moving. I initially tried the wedge, the
>> hammer... With no success. There was some white powder visible, sign of
>> aluminum corrosion. I finally had success with white vinegar, injected with
>> a syringe where I can, from the top of the deck and from below, and a
>> soaked rag taped around the block. I repeated this procedure twice and
>> wait... The day after, I was able to separate everything with a small tap
>> on the bolt, clean and reassemble with good quality butyl. I was happy to
>> find that the core was not exposed around the chainplate.
>>
>> Good luck.
>>
>> Bruno Lachance
>> Becassine, 1987 33mkII
>> New- Richmond, Qc.
>>
>>
>> Envoyé de mon iPad
>>
>> Le 8 janv. 2017 à 11:45, Patrick Davin via CnC-List <
>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> a écrit :
>>
>> Anyone have experience pulling this style of chainplate? Photo uploaded
>> here: https://svviolethour.com/chainplate/
>>
>> Wally's site also has a good picture of one once it's open:
>> http://www.wbryant.com/StellaBoat/Projects/newrig/cplates/cplates.htm
>>
>> Wally says his were bedded in silicone, which probably made it really
>> easy to pull, but mine don't appear to be silicone - some white
>> sealant/adhesive which I'm afraid might be 4200 or in the worst case 5200.
>> The backing block is adhered to the fiberglass deck undersurface, and to
>> the bolts of the U-bolt.
>>
>> But mostly it's hard to pull because the block has nothing good to grip
>> on, and it's in a tight location with bulkheads / cabinetry blocking access
>> to two sides.
>>
>> Anyone have tips for how they did it? Did the backing block come off
>> easily, or were there some tricks / gotchas?
>>
>> I've tried: vice grips, flathead screwdrivers used as wedges and hammered
>> on the end, heat gun, pulling up on the U-bolt above deck, and trying to
>> pull down the backing block using the threaded rod itself (over-tensioning
>> it - I stopped this before it got too scary - don't want to break it).
>>
>> The next things I can try are: torch (stronger than a heat gun for
>> melting glue, but I don't want to burn the fiberglass or set something on
>> fire). More hammering on wedges.
>>
>> -Patrick
>> 1984 C LF38
>>
>> ___
>>
>> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
>> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
>> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>>
>> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>>
>>
>
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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

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Re: Stus-List Mast Down - Need guidance on replacement of VHF cabling & antenna

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Funny, I started this same project literally just today. Must be the season
for mast-out work.

I also read the Internet boards where a few people talked up LMR-400.
Decide to go with Ancor RG213, because it's the same size as what I'm
replacing, and it sounds like LMR-400 is overkill for marine VHF purposes -
other issues (like old connections) are likely to make way more of a
difference. Also one person said LMR-400 is heavy and inflexible, making it
harder to fit through a conduit, as well as support a 40-50 foot vertical
run.

And 100 feet of Ancor RG213 is only $86 on Amazon currently, with 2-day
Prime shipping, which is cheaper than most of the marine stores I checked
(I support our local marine store plenty of other times though, so no
worries about them not getting business).

I went with the Shakespeare 5215 antenna, because it's the same model as
what I'm replacing - so the mounting bracket will fit the same template
(almost - it turns out 1 out of 3 holes is in a new spot, so I'll have to
drill/tap one new hole).

Whether you replace the cabin cabling is up to you based on how bad you
think it is. Have you done any VHF testing? When I cut our coax today, the
core and shield appeared fine (not corroded) - however not tinned like the
new coax is. I had some corrosion at the connections at the base of the
mast (and little or none at the masthead).

And our VHF reception/transmission was mediocre. Quite possibly the 33 year
old coax cable was just fine and I could've just reterminated all the
connections and reused the antenna, but a $63 antenna + ~$90 cable seemed
worth it for not having to worry about it, since I don't plan to have the
mast down again for a long time.

Since 100 feet is enough to reach the radio, I'm replacing the cabin (upper
bilge) cabling too. And not bothering with a mast base quick disconnect,
because mast pulls are a rare event in this area, and I can just add that
later (in maybe 8-10 years?) if needed.

-Patrick
1984 C LF38
Seattle, WA

On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 3:49 PM,  wrote:

> Belated HNY, Listers,
>
> I am having the standing rigging [rod] on my '91 30-2 re-done [hopefully,
> re-headed].
>
>
> Now that the mast is down, I am looking to replacement of all the wiring
> and running rigging.
>
> Regarding the VHF cabling, I am "hearing" that "LMR-400" is superior to
> other alternatives.
>
> So, I checked Amazon and, of course, found "LMR-400", but there appear to
> be several varieties to choose from.
>
> Or, perhaps, it's simply different terminal fittings on the same cable.  I
> can't tell.
>
> In any event, I would appreciate any feedback on which cabling to use.  I
> need about 44 ft.
>
>
> And also, any thoughts on installation "best practices".  It would seem
> I'll need to cut one end in order to get it up the mast.  Does this make
> sense?
>
> I would prefer NOT to have to cut and re-solder, but that seems to be
> unavoidable.
>
> Also, should I replace the interior cabling -- from the mast to the radio
> -- as well?
>
>
> And finally, any thoughts on the best antenna to use?
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Pete W.
>
> Siren Song
>
> C 30-2
>
> Deltaville, Va.
>
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Re: Stus-List Cruisers Forum 38 LF for sale

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I saw that this morning too. I wouldn't say it looks sketchy necessarily,
just your typical bought-at-auction project boat. Transients were living on
it for a couple years, and the engine might be shot. It's sad what ends up
happening to good boats sometimes.

The latest pictures he posted (open them full size in a new tab) are pretty
interesting / informative. I haven't seen many of those bulkhead cutouts
(windows) from the galley to aft qtrberth.

-Patrick
1984 C LF38

On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 9:00 AM,  wrote:

> From: Ryan Doyle 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 11:46:47 -0500
> Subject: Stus-List Cruisers Forum 38 LF for sale
> Saw this on Cruisers Forum this morning.  Guy is asking $6,000.  Sounds
> interesting if not a little sketchy...
>
> http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f152/1983-c-and-c-38-
> landfall-178387.html?utm_source=feedburner_medium=
> email_campaign=Feed%3A+cruisersforumnews+%28Cruisers+Forum+-+Emails%29
>
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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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Re: Stus-List Pulling rod chainplate backing block on LF38

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Thanks. I'll try the vinegar technique. I also have some BoatLife Release,
but was hesitant to try that because the seam will be difficult to inject
into, and the Release chemical is fairly toxic I believe.

I have no leaking from above deck, so I probably won't be able to inject
anything from above. I'm only opening / inspecting to confirm it's not
leaking, and because I have the mast out now.

I too had some white dust float down when I loosened the threaded rod.

I'll try tapping up on the bolts too.

On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 9:19 AM, Bruno Lachance <bruno_lacha...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> Patrick,
>
> I have faced the same kind of problem on my boat. It is not exactly the
> same style of chainplate, but the 33 mkII does have the same aluminum
> backing block, and it was not moving. I initially tried the wedge, the
> hammer... With no success. There was some white powder visible, sign of
> aluminum corrosion. I finally had success with white vinegar, injected with
> a syringe where I can, from the top of the deck and from below, and a
> soaked rag taped around the block. I repeated this procedure twice and
> wait... The day after, I was able to separate everything with a small tap
> on the bolt, clean and reassemble with good quality butyl. I was happy to
> find that the core was not exposed around the chainplate.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Bruno Lachance
> Becassine, 1987 33mkII
> New- Richmond, Qc.
>
>
> Envoyé de mon iPad
>
> Le 8 janv. 2017 à 11:45, Patrick Davin via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> a écrit :
>
> Anyone have experience pulling this style of chainplate? Photo uploaded
> here: https://svviolethour.com/chainplate/
>
> Wally's site also has a good picture of one once it's open:
> http://www.wbryant.com/StellaBoat/Projects/newrig/cplates/cplates.htm
>
> Wally says his were bedded in silicone, which probably made it really easy
> to pull, but mine don't appear to be silicone - some white sealant/adhesive
> which I'm afraid might be 4200 or in the worst case 5200. The backing block
> is adhered to the fiberglass deck undersurface, and to the bolts of the
> U-bolt.
>
> But mostly it's hard to pull because the block has nothing good to grip
> on, and it's in a tight location with bulkheads / cabinetry blocking access
> to two sides.
>
> Anyone have tips for how they did it? Did the backing block come off
> easily, or were there some tricks / gotchas?
>
> I've tried: vice grips, flathead screwdrivers used as wedges and hammered
> on the end, heat gun, pulling up on the U-bolt above deck, and trying to
> pull down the backing block using the threaded rod itself (over-tensioning
> it - I stopped this before it got too scary - don't want to break it).
>
> The next things I can try are: torch (stronger than a heat gun for melting
> glue, but I don't want to burn the fiberglass or set something on fire).
> More hammering on wedges.
>
> -Patrick
> 1984 C LF38
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
___

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Stus-List Pulling rod chainplate backing block on LF38

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Anyone have experience pulling this style of chainplate? Photo uploaded
here: https://svviolethour.com/chainplate/

Wally's site also has a good picture of one once it's open:
http://www.wbryant.com/StellaBoat/Projects/newrig/cplates/cplates.htm

Wally says his were bedded in silicone, which probably made it really easy
to pull, but mine don't appear to be silicone - some white sealant/adhesive
which I'm afraid might be 4200 or in the worst case 5200. The backing block
is adhered to the fiberglass deck undersurface, and to the bolts of the
U-bolt.

But mostly it's hard to pull because the block has nothing good to grip on,
and it's in a tight location with bulkheads / cabinetry blocking access to
two sides.

Anyone have tips for how they did it? Did the backing block come off
easily, or were there some tricks / gotchas?

I've tried: vice grips, flathead screwdrivers used as wedges and hammered
on the end, heat gun, pulling up on the U-bolt above deck, and trying to
pull down the backing block using the threaded rod itself (over-tensioning
it - I stopped this before it got too scary - don't want to break it).

The next things I can try are: torch (stronger than a heat gun for melting
glue, but I don't want to burn the fiberglass or set something on fire).
More hammering on wedges.

-Patrick
1984 C LF38
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Re: Stus-List Fwd: Navtec 10 Series 7

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Yeah, it's stories like that that made me seriously consider getting a
manual adjuster instead. Unfortunately not many are made anymore as far as
I can tell. Wichard makes manual adjusters, but they're just as expensive
as a new hydraulic (and I couldn't figure out if they're easily available).

-Patrick

On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 12:43 PM,  wrote:

> From: David 
> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" 
> Cc:
> Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 19:47:44 +
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Fwd: Navtec 10 Series 7
>
> I took mine to a truck repair  shop after I paid a "Navtec Approved"
> repair shop $500 only have it fail again in 14 months...no warranty so I
> was stuck with another large bill.   Didnt trust the repair so before going
> offshore brought it to the truck shop to inspect and test.   What cost $500
> would have cost $100 there.
>
>
> David F. Risch
> (401) 419-4650 (cell)
>
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Re: Stus-List Navtec 10 Series 7

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I'm replacing my adjuster currently. Sailtec 10-SI to Sailtec 10-Long. The
old one leaked a good deal of oil last spring and still works but loses
pressure over time (holds pretty well in our currently cold weather, but
not in warmer weather). Just about any rigger can rebuild a Navtec
adjuster. Sailtec rebuild is about $425, through Sailtec. That's nearly
half the cost of a new adjuster with newer features (like the pressure
gauge at the top) so that's why I decided to go new.

RiggingOnly is who I ordered through and they have the steepest discounts
on Sailtec and Navtec. They're closed this week due to holidays. Your local
rigger may be able to get a pretty good discount too though. I'd recommend
rebuild unless you're replacing or reheading your backstay. Harken makes
nice adjusters now too, but they're more expensive.

I know people say any random hydraulics shop can rebuild it, but for me
with such a critical component I'd prefer someone with marine specific
experience. From what I've heard, the repair should last a long time unless
the shaft is scored or otherwise damaged. A rigger can pretty easily check
that upon opening it up, to determine whether it's worth rebuilding or not.

-Patrick
1984 C Landfall 38

On Dec 30, 2016, at 9:35 AM, John McKay  wrote:
>
> The Navtec backstay adjuster failed on Enterprise this summer.
>
> I know South Shore can repair it but it is a fairly expensive repair and
> searching on the net, most say a repair does not last that long.
>
> Has anyone replaced their adjuster?
>
> With what?
>
> Approximate cost?
>
> Or if repaired, where?
>
> Guys around my yacht club says it is an easy fix, but they are
> mechanically inclined!
>
> Thanks and Happy New Years
>
> John on Enterprise
> Komoka
>
>
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Re: Stus-List freeze proofing

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I take a different strategy here in Seattle - no winterizing, just a marine
electric heater on power=2, temp = lowest (anti freeze setting). Plus
visiting the boat 1-2 times per week, which I'm doing anyway for winter
projects. And sailing about 1x/month.

Vancouver is a little colder, but it's the water temperature that keeps
your boat's bilge warmer generally. In Seattle the water temp is 50F. I
imagine it's between 45-50F in Vancouver. You can check US PNW water temps
here:
https://www.nodc.noaa.gov/dsdt/cwtg/npac.html
Vancouver (47F):
http://www.seatemperature.org/north-america/canada/vancouver.htm

Do you have a themometer is your boat cabin? Move it around various places
and I bet you'll find the bilge is typically at least 10F higher than the
outdoor temperature (measure in early morning if possible). In Seattle our
nighttime lows are hitting 26 F. So with 26 F outside air temp + 45-50F
water temp, we don't hit 32F inside the boat.

The cockpit shower hose is a different matter. That's not near the bilge,
so it's subject to freezing temps (but hasn't had any issues yet).

-Patrick
Seattle, WA

On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 10:46 AM,  wrote:

> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Jeremy Ralph 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 10:17:01 -0800
> Subject: Stus-List freeze proofing
> Here in the Pacific NW (Vancouver) we're getting freezing weather now,
> which rarely happens.  Many people keep a small ceramic heater running in
> their boats, but what if the shore power goes out?
>
> Here is what I did last week to prep:
>
> 1. Run 2QM20 raw water cooled engine under load for 20min to warm it up.
> Stop engine.  Close seacock. Open sea strainer. Start engine. Pour RV
> antifreeze into the sea strainer.  Stop engine.  Close sea strainer.
>
> 2. Drain fresh water holding tank system.  Run RV antifreeze through
> the pump and faucet.
>
> 3. Put RV antifreeze in the head and pump into empty holding tank.  Run
> macerator enough to get antifreeze in lines.
>
> 4. Put RV antifreeze in the bilge
>
> What do others do?  Any tips?
>
> Thanks,
>   Jeremy
>
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Re: Stus-List Looking for Tips on ROD Re-Rigging Process

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I'm going through this process right now (see the list archive for my email
thread asking questions about it last month). It's a pretty complex topic,
so not something easily explained holistically in an email. I'm working on
a blog post (svviolethour.com) about it but there's so much it will require
a 3 part series. I'll try to get part 1 (planning / decision making phase)
up soon.

Reheading is a little cheaper but from what I've heard (in the list
archive, and other sources) it's not *that* much cheaper, and by the time
most people rehead (25 years is well past when they recommend), it's
advisable to replace the rest of the rig too. If you rehead 25 year old
rods, what about the 25 year old turnbuckles, pins, and tangs? A rig is
only as strong as its weakest link. Also reheading is almost as much labor
as a rerig.

I'm going with BSI rod. After talking to multiple riggers I learned Navtec
is not necessarily the defacto choice anymore, and BSI is doing a lot of
today's rod production, with often faster availability of parts.

-Patrick
1984 C Landfall 38
Seattle, WA

On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 8:37 AM,  wrote:

> From: kelly petew 
> To: cnc-list 
> Cc:
> Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 15:56:46 +
> Subject: Stus-List Looking for Tips on ROD Re-Rigging Process
>
> Hello Listers,
>
>
> My 30-2 is 25+ years young.  I've been the owner since 2003, and I am
> reasonably sure the standing, rog rigging is original.
>
> I've met with a rigger and I am awaiting his recommendation ,including the
> costs and other options.  I'm hoping the existing rod [25 years old] can be
> re-headed as this would be the less costly route to go[not counting "doing
> nothing", of course].
>
>
>
> I'm in the yard and they can pull the mast as early as next week.
>
>
> That said, I would appreciate any tips on this project.  For example, once
> the mast is out, How best to plug the hole in the deck?
>
> Also, while the mast is down, I want to replace the VHF cabling, install
> LED lights, clean/paint the mast.
>
> Any suggestions in these areas would be great!!!
>
>
> Fair Winds,
>
>
> Pete W.
>
> Siren Song
>
> '91 C
>
> Deltavillle, Va.
>
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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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Re: Stus-List Fire aboard

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

So it was a solar charge controller that started the electrical fire.
Interesting since the list was just recently discussing solar panels (and
I'm planning to do that project in the spring).

Either the controller was faulty, overloaded, or improperly installed. Hard
to speculate on which it was... but if it was properly fused and wires
properly sized, shouldn't that haven't prevented a fire?

-Patrick
1984 C LF 38

On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 12:05 PM,  wrote:
>
> From: Dreuge 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 12:13:21 -0500
> Subject: Stus-List Fire aboard
> I recall a discussion a while back on the list about having fire blankets
> on board.  At the time, I looked up a few fire blankets online, and I
> planned on getting one or two. After reading about yesterday’s Vendee Globe
> fire, I’m getting a few fire blankets today.
>
>
> Be sure to watch the video after you have read about the fire.
>
> http://www.vendeeglobe.org/en/news/16841/fire-aboard-conrad-colman-s-boat
>
>
>
> -
> Paul E.
> 1981 C 38 Landfall
> S/V Johanna Rose
> Carrabelle, FL
>
> http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/
>
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Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Ack, I forgot to change the email subject from the digest. Sorry! Retitling
so this mistake is not perpetuated.

-- Original mail: --
Thanks Rick. I did read your email (to this thread), and one from Apr 10
2014. I think that's it unless I missed one.

A wire conversion has only two tricky parts to it - the mast fittings, and
the spreader tips. So I'm trying to figure out more details about those.
There are a few things not clear to me about your wire rerig:
- What changes were made with your mast fittings (navtangs), if any? It
sounds like you got Navtec stemball fittings swaged onto the wire and
reused the old navtangs. Do you have K150's or K200's, and do you know if
the tie bar was inspected?
- How does the spreader tip connection need to change for wire?  The 38 Mk
2 rig might be a little different, but my upper main shroud is continuous
at the upper spreader. Does wire necessitate any changes there?  The lower
spreader tip is also a little tricky (because it has three wire
terminations in it).

I do agree nitrionic 50 rod is a marvelous engineering feat, but there are
appealing aspects to Dyform too (including that there are many more places
that can swage wire). The interesting thing is navtec's site says Dyform,
at the thickness giving comparable strength to -10 rod, has nearly the same
low stretch as rod. Dyform at 1 lbs is 0.00085 stretch while rod -10 is
0.00083. I'm going to ask a couple riggers about that.

http://www.navtecriggingsolutions.com/rigging.html

-Patrick
1984 C LF38

On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 5:20 PM,  wrote:

> From: Rick Brass 
> To: 
> Cc:
> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 20:19:58 -0500
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38
>
> If you go back a few weeks on the list you will find a lengthy post from
> me telling about my experience replacing all the #10 rod on my 38 mk2 with
> Dyform wire.
>
>
>
> The wire has a little bit higher tensile strength than the rod. It is
> slightly – like a few thousandths – larger in diameter than the rod, so has
> a bit more windage. And the all up cost for replacement was just about what
> I was quoted for having Navtec evaluate the old rod.
>
>
>
> Rick Brass
>
> *Imzadi  *C 38 mk 2
>
> *la Belle Aurore *C 25 mk1
>
> Washington, NC
>
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Re: Stus-List CnC-List Digest, Vol 130, Issue 94

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Thanks Rick. I did read your email (to this thread), and one from Apr 10
2014. I think that's it unless I missed one.

A wire conversion has only two tricky parts to it - the mast fittings, and
the spreader tips. So I'm trying to figure out more details about those.
There are a few things not clear to me about your wire rerig:
- What changes were made with your mast fittings (navtangs), if any? It
sounds like you got Navtec stemball fittings swaged onto the wire and
reused the old navtangs. Do you have K150's or K200's, and do you know if
the tie bar was inspected?
- How does the spreader tip connection need to change for wire?  The 38 Mk
2 rig might be a little different, but my upper main shroud is continuous
at the upper spreader. Does wire necessitate any changes there?  The lower
spreader tip is also a little tricky (because it has three wire
terminations in it).

I do agree nitrionic 50 rod is a marvelous engineering feat, but there are
appealing aspects to Dyform too (including that there are many more places
that can swage wire). The interesting thing is navtec's site says Dyform,
at the thickness giving comparable strength to -10 rod, has nearly the same
low stretch as rod. Dyform at 1 lbs is 0.00085 stretch while rod -10 is
0.00083. I'm going to ask a couple riggers about that.

http://www.navtecriggingsolutions.com/rigging.html

On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 5:20 PM,  wrote:

> From: Rick Brass 
> To: 
> Cc:
> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 20:19:58 -0500
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38
>
> If you go back a few weeks on the list you will find a lengthy post from
> me telling about my experience replacing all the #10 rod on my 38 mk2 with
> Dyform wire.
>
>
>
> The wire has a little bit higher tensile strength than the rod. It is
> slightly – like a few thousandths – larger in diameter than the rod, so has
> a bit more windage. And the all up cost for replacement was just about what
> I was quoted for having Navtec evaluate the old rod.
>
>
>
> Rick Brass
>
> *Imzadi  *C 38 mk 2
>
> *la Belle Aurore *C 25 mk1
>
> Washington, NC
>
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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Ok, I've found out a lot more in the last 3 weeks, but am frustratingly no
closer to making a decision. All I've learned is that Navtec parts are
really expensive and complex. And that everyone I talk to disagrees with
the previous person (ie, even professional riggers don't agree on what is
recommended + safe) - I suppose this is normal in sailing though.

I found a few more old threads from the C list:

http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2011-November/041498.html
http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2014-April/066294.html

A lot of it seems to come down to the Navtangs. Navtec changed the design
several times (to make improvements), and Navtec had so much employee
turnover that there's only one guy remaining who has been through all the
iterations.

My previous thinking was based on that my '84 has K150 tangs with SS tie
rods (confirmed by a rigger when we pulled one tang last year). And the
tang was easily unscrewed, which lends me hope the other 3 would also be
similar. So I assumed I could reuse my tangs, because it seems other C
owners did so, and last year's rigger said it looked reusable (based on
visual inspection).

However a more conservative rigger basically implied I would be stupid to
reuse it. Navtec recommends replacing them - but Navtec recommends
replacing anything older than 12 years old, so I don't really know what to
make of Navtec's advice (they have no incentive *not* to recommend
replacing their hardware with new hardware of their own).

A local rigger told me the navtangs are $1000 each. I have 4 of them, so
replacing them would basically double the cost of a rerig (and that's not
counting any labor cost). (I think the $1k/each is an overestimate though -
I found a price online of $500-600).

It seems like a lot of people who have rerigged haven't actually done full
rerigs - ie, they reused turnbuckles, or tangs. I do agree with the more
conservative rigger that it doesn't make sense to leave a "weak link" in
the system. But I'm not sure whether old navtangs must be automatically
condemned into the category of being a weak link.

I'm seriously thinking about a wire conversion again, but that has it's own
complications. Has anyone done that on the side shrouds? From archives I
know Calypso did forestay/backstay, but those are easy to convert. The mast
tangs and discontinuous lower spreader junction are the tricky part.

I found a Youtube channel where they replaced their Navtec rig with wire:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVhj714rleQ

But they have a Niagara 35 with a single spreader rig rather than double,
so that makes it a bit simpler. And the well-known rigger Brion Toss has
said (in his forum) that for a C, he would stay with rod, because rod
makes a difference to the responsiveness of C's.

-Patrick
1984 C Landfall 38
Seattle, WA

On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 9:16 AM, Patrick Davin  wrote:

> Right, I totally get the mast would need to be pulled if I were reheading.
> Doing it one side at a time would take too long. I'm not planning to rehead
> though. From what I've heard it seems like reheading only saves a moderate
> percentage of money, and getting new rod gives me extra piece of mind that
> I did the full job, plus simplifies some things - my backstay hydraulic
> adjuster is also dead, so I will replace that at the same time, and if the
> new adjuster is a different length, I'll simply order the new backstay to
> the proper size.
>
> I also considered going wire instead of rod, but the rigger I talked to
> last year said it might not save that much money converting to wire,
> considering the cost of mast tangs or other changes that would need to be
> made. I could easily go wire on just the forestay and backstay. But not
> sure that's worth the inconsistency.
>
> Mostly I'm interested in the logistics of doing it DIY - for others that
> went that route, what went wrong, what was easy, what was hard, etc.
>
> On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 8:15 AM,  wrote:
>
>> From: Joel Aronson 
>> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" 
>> Cc:
>> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 11:01:48 -0400
>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38
>> If you have rod rigging, the rod needs to be reheaded.  It is not a DIY
>> job.  If you want to replace wire, I highly recommend Rigging and and
>> Hardware
>> www.RiggingAndHardware.com​ for great service and pricing.  They did new
>> lifelines for my 44 for about $620.  The rig would have to be down if you
>> want to send them the old wire.  If its rod, shipping is not practical, so
>> they would go on measurements alone.
>>
>> Joel
>> Former 35/3
>> Hylas 44
>>
>
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Rick, did you do the rerig work yourself, or the rigger installed? Mast up,
or down?

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 6:24 AM,  wrote:

> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Rick Brass 
> To: 
> Cc:
> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 23:12:43 -0400
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38
>
> Dave;
>
>
>
> Could he have been referring to Dyform wire? That is a multi-strand wire
> made of individual wires that are sort of wedge shaped in cross section, so
> the strands are packed more densely than in conventional wire. It has both
> smaller diameter and greater tensile strength than conventional wire.
>
>
>
> I had my 38 rerigged in about 2011, after one of the toggles in my rig
> broke during a race in windy and rough conditions. The  old toggles may or
> may not have been original and also may have been of a generation that was
> recalled and replaced by Navtec. But I began to doubt the integrity of my
> (then) 35 year old rod rigging.
>
>
>
> Navtec says that dye testing is not adequate on old rod, and recommended
> replacement of rod over something like 20 years old. Their suggestion was
> to remove the rod , coil it on a pallet (I think it was Dennis C who said a
> coil of 200x rod diameter) with a coil about 5’ diameter, and ship it to
> them for non-destructive testing (X-ray, I think), and they would ship it
> back. Cost would have been about $3500 plus the cost of reheading or
> replacement depending on what the Navtec testing showed.
>
>
>
> My rigger suggested Dyform wire as a high value alternative. The wire
> turns out to be about 1/16th larger in diameter than the #10 rod (so
> slightly more windage) but also has a higher tensile strength than the rod
> it replaces. Rigger swaged on ends that fit the existing tangs in the mast,
> and used Sta-Loc fittings on the lower end so the wire could be cut to the
> proper lengths.
>
>
>
> Turns out that replacing the rod headstay with wire was probably a good
> idea. Maker of my furler (Bamar) recommends not using a rod headstay. They
> say that grit & dirt that gets into the bearings in the foil can score the
> rod and create stress risers that can lead to rod failure. The recommend
> installing a wire headstay if you have one of their roller furlers.
>
>
>
> All up cost for the Dyform wire rerigging of my 38 was about $3900 – just
> $400 more than the estimate from Navtec and the rigger for the R of the
> rod, shipping & inspection. Semmed like a good idea – and a lot less costly
> that reheading/replacing the rod.
>
>
>
> Rick Brass
>
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Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Right, I totally get the mast would need to be pulled if I were reheading.
Doing it one side at a time would take too long. I'm not planning to rehead
though. From what I've heard it seems like reheading only saves a moderate
percentage of money, and getting new rod gives me extra piece of mind that
I did the full job, plus simplifies some things - my backstay hydraulic
adjuster is also dead, so I will replace that at the same time, and if the
new adjuster is a different length, I'll simply order the new backstay to
the proper size.

I also considered going wire instead of rod, but the rigger I talked to
last year said it might not save that much money converting to wire,
considering the cost of mast tangs or other changes that would need to be
made. I could easily go wire on just the forestay and backstay. But not
sure that's worth the inconsistency.

Mostly I'm interested in the logistics of doing it DIY - for others that
went that route, what went wrong, what was easy, what was hard, etc.

On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 8:15 AM,  wrote:

> From: Joel Aronson 
> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" 
> Cc:
> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 11:01:48 -0400
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38
> If you have rod rigging, the rod needs to be reheaded.  It is not a DIY
> job.  If you want to replace wire, I highly recommend Rigging and and
> Hardware
> www.RiggingAndHardware.com​ for great service and pricing.  They did new
> lifelines for my 44 for about $620.  The rig would have to be down if you
> want to send them the old wire.  If its rod, shipping is not practical, so
> they would go on measurements alone.
>
> Joel
> Former 35/3
> Hylas 44
>
___

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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Stus-List Pointers on rerigging an LF38

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I'm considering doing a rerig this winter. There are no obvious problems,
but it's getting on 33 years now and would be nice for the peace of mind.
Does anyone know of any blogs / websites / emails that do sort of a step by
step guide to do-it-yourself rerigging?

I'd like to do it myself to save on labor costs, but work with a local
rigger hopefully to help with ordering the parts. I have one in mind who
did my rig inspection plus replaced the D2s last year.

The D2s (diagonals from lower spreader to mast near upper spreaders) are
already new rod as of last year, due to some small cracks found at the
upper rod ends of the old rod.

I have the original rig schematics diagram. However Navtec no longer makes
some of these parts. I understand the spreader 3-way join and the mast
tangs are the tricky part.

I searched the list archives but didn't find much on rerigs. I know Wally
did a rerig but he didn't cover the details of it. I've seen some riggers
say rerig requires unstepping the mast, but I'm not sure why they say this.
If I can do this without pulling the mast that will save a lot of work and
expense.

Releasing the side shrouds at the upper terminations (stemballs) requires
lifting the rod to near parallel to the ground and then unscrewing the
navtang. When we did the D2s, this was easy. The caps unscrewed without any
special efforts like heating. The uppers could be more difficult because
they're longer (and perhaps hard to lift parallel to earth).

If anyone knows of a good guide (ideally specific to C's) to this, I'd
love to read it.

-Patrick
1984 C LF38
Seattle, WA
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Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Oops - I didn't mean to turn this into an Apple vs Android debate! : ) But
I can't resist responding to a few of your points:

- It's not true that on Android you're locked in to one app store. There
are alternatives (most well-known of which is Amazon's app store):
https://www.androidpit.com/best-google-play-store-alternative-app-stores
Also Android phones can be easily unlocked and you can install any app
package that you wish, downloaded from the Internet without any app store
(at your own risk). Apple doesn't allow that to be done easily (you need to
"jailbreak" it), and their app store is also more restrictive of app
approvals.

- Hardware lock-in - maybe we have different definitions of "lock in", but
what I meant could be better phrased as "intentionally decreased hardware
intercompatibility." I can't power/charge an iphone with a USB 2.0 or 3.0
cable (without some kind of adapter), and those are industry wide open
standards.

So, yes, Apple isn't the same as Raymarine (and objectively not as bad),
but both have good examples of similar efforts made to create a closed
ecosystem.

And I am typing this on a MacBook Air. So I'm not a complete Mac hater. : )

On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 7:32 PM,  wrote:

> From: Stevan Plavsa 
> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" 
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 21:37:20 -0400
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and
> Patrick, I have to chime in for Apple here - and not speaking to the
> iPhone 7 because I haven't been paying attention and I'm an Android guy,
> but there is no "hardware lock in" with Apple. "Ecosystem" lock in,
> absolutely. You get the iPhone so you're locked to their App store - yes.
> This is also true for Android. There are benefits and there are drawbacks,
> but hardware lock in - no. They use all the same ports everyone else uses
> these days. I'm a Windows, Linux and Mac guy ... Someone wants to take my
> macbook? - from my cold dead hands!
>
> The XPS laptops and that come close in industrial design these days - they
> have that nice edge display. But it's still Windows and well, Windows was
> my first, but it's a total kludge fest compared to the UI in OSX. I use
> both, every day and once upon a time, back in the OS9 days, I made fun of
> the mac guys.
>
> Steve
> Suhana, C 32
> Toronto
>
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Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I agree with you. If I had known Raymarine's love of proprietary,
lock-you-in, charge-as-much-as-they-please techniques, I probably wouldn't
have bought an i70 and wind instrument.  (It's pretty astounding how much
they charge per foot for a backbone cable, and even the little plastic caps
you use to terminate it)

I can see how for some people that aspect isn't that important though,
there are other things to consider like hardware quality and reliability.

Being in the software industry it was just amazing to see the effort
Raymarine has made to maintain incompatibility / closed systems. In
software if you have a common transfer protocol that companies are building
their own proprietary things on top of, it's either intentional or
incompetence. Raymarine doesn't seem incompetent so I have to conclude it's
intentional.

Apple is actually a good example of a software company that uses similar
proprietary lock-in techniques to create a closed system. Just take for
example their proprietary charging port and the latest iphone decision to
remove an open standard (audio jack) in favor of a closed standard (Apple
charging port with proprietary audio jack adapter).

People that go Apple are deciding that paying a premium for equivalent
hardware is worth it for whatever benefits they believe they get out of it
(ex, better UX design?). With Apple it's not as bad though because they at
least try to make things easier for the consumer.

The good news is I think software updates to an i70 are much less important
than updates to a chartplotter. Wind algorithms don't change that often,
and I'm basically happy with the UI. Charts and charting UI do change
often. My three Android devices cost less than a Raymarine MFD and provide
triple redundancy.

-Patrick
S/V Violet Hour, Seattle, WA
C LF38

On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 9:00 AM,  wrote:

> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Dave S 
> To: "C Stus List" 
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 11:47:59 -0400
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and
> Joel,
>
> That's pretty much the nut of it, there is not the same critical mass or
> informed user base as with  mainstream mobile computing, (and this IS
> mobile computing) and today, the tradeoff exists between the benefits (many
> contrived) of single-brand solutions, and the benefits of a more open
> approach.  Still, they have to strategize about their new competition - a
> $50, full featured chartplotter,   (yes, in a relatively fragile device) on
> technologies with very short (relatively) life cycles and blistering
> innovation rates.   Amazing really.
>
> I dealt with the fragility issues by buying a lifeproof case and RAM
> mount.  Pretty rugged stuff, and fine for my application - summer sailing
> on Lake Ontario.
>
> I differ a bit on the software upgrade opinion - as with cars this could
> be a safety and liability issue for the manufacturers.   If they make it
> unreasonably difficult, they have a problem.  something else for them to
> grapple with.
>
> Other than chartplotters, tablet based Apps are thin on the ground so far,
> partly because of the small market, partly the "closed shop" of the major
> players, and - somewhat related- partly because "open" wireless N2K is in
> its infancy, though this is changing.  The next few years will be
> interesting!
>
> Dave
>
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Re: Stus-List Potable water pump

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I have the Jabsco Par-Max 2.9. Installed 6 months ago when our older pump
died.
I've been happy with it. Works well and the install was easy.

It's about as noisy as our previous pump. Mounted under the galley sink,
there's no risk of not hearing it if it's cycling or running continuously
while onboard.

I'm happy with 2.9 gph too. Our old pump was 1.6 gph. The new one doesn't
seem much faster though, which is good (I was worried 2.9 gph was too
high), because we try to use water very sparingly (carry 29g which lasts us
7-8 days).

-Patrick
C LF38

On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 10:44 AM,  wrote:

> From: Frederick G Street 
> To: "Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List" 
> Cc:
> Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 12:37:20 -0500
> Subject: Stus-List Potable water pump
> Hi, all — I tracked down a leak in my potable water system last weekend to
> an apparent split or leak in the diaphragm on the belt-driven (probably
> original…) pressure water pump on my LF38.  I could probably find a parts
> kit for this pump; but given its age, I’m thinking about replacing it with
> a new pump.  I’ve been looking at the Jabsco PAR-MAX line, specifically the
> PAR-MAX 2.9 or the PAR-MAX Plus 4.0.  Anybody have other suggestions for
> me?  I don’t want a super-quiet pump, as I want to be able to hear it run,
> especially when tanks go dry; but I’d like something that hammers less than
> the original pump.
>
> — Fred
>
>
> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
> S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI
>
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Re: Stus-List BlackWatch - C 39 - world tour

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Congrats on the successful passage! I'm subscribed now and look forward to
more.

>From the project pics it looks like you did a lot in only a year. Too bad
the blog wasn't started earlier - would be great to hear about some of
those.
What kind of wind vane do you have? I saw it in the pictures but couldn't
recognize the brand. I take it you don't have an electric autopilot and
used that exclusively?

-Patrick
S/V Violet Hour, Seattle, WA
'84 C LF38


> On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 7:28 PM, Adam Trackracer via CnC-List  cnc-list.com > 
> wrote:
>
> >* Thought you guys might like this,  me and my girl are sailin to the South
> *>* Pacific and beyond on our 1973 C, took me a while to find a 39
> *>* (favorite c) I'll post projects and picks, ask me anything,  peace.
> *>>* Svblackwatch.wordpress.com 
> *>
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Crack at trailing edge of lower spreader on LF38

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

My lower spreaders also each have a tiny crack at the trailing edge. The
crack is about 1/8" - 1/4", on the middle of the seam. My rig inspector
didn't seem at all concerned about it, and there were bigger issues to
tackle first. I'd have to see a picture to know how bad your's looks, but
my solution has been to not worry about it and just go sailing. The way the
spreaders take load, I don't think it poses much concern.

-Patrick
1984 C Landfall 38
Seattle, WA

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 8:05 AM,  wrote:

> From: Robert Boyer 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 09:55:43 -0400
> Subject: Stus-List Crack at trailing edge of lower spreader on LF38
> As part of my annual haul out this year, I had a rigging survey done by my
> boatyard.  They found a crack that runs along the trailing edge of the
> lower starboard spreader.  We are looking at two options: weld repairs
> and new spreaders.  Has anyone else run into this problem?  If so, any
> help on where to find replacement spreaders would be very useful.  Thanks!
>
> Bob
>
> Bob Boyer
> s/v Rainy Days
> C Landfall 38 (Hull # 230)
> Annapolis, MD (presently in Baltimore)
> blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com
> email: dainyr...@icloud.com
>
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Re: Stus-List Transmission in forward or reverse while sailing?

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Are you sure? I talked to Trans Atlantic Diesels (who sells Hurth
transmissions) last year and they told me Hurth transmissions should not be
left in reverse while sailing. I told them the prop spins in neutral, and
they replied the prop should be allowed to freewheel in neutral, and not
sailed in reverse or fwd.

This is a much debated topic though. A Google search will turn up a
thousand conflicting opinions. I'm sticking with what the people who make
and repair the transmissions say though.

-Patrick
1984 C Landfall 38

On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 5:19 AM,  wrote:

> From: Gary Russell 
> To: "C List" 
> Cc:
> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 07:16:57 -0400
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Transmission in forward or reverse while sailing?
>
> The answer may depend on what make of transmission you have, but my Hurth
> transmission recommends reverse.  If your prop is spinning in forward, I
> would suggest that is not good.  I would recommend reverse.  Some
> transmission, I'm told, have the oil pump on the input shaft, so there is
> no lubrication when the engine is stopped.  That's one reason you want to
> make sure the prop is not free-wheeling.  The other reason, of course, is
> drag.
>
> Gary
> S/V Kaylarah
> '90 C 37+
> East Greenwich, RI, USA
>
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Re: Stus-List Deck Waste fitting dilemma

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

If it's that corroded I would just pull it and replace it (or work on
reconditioning it once you have it out).

Pulling the deck fills was a recommended survey item on my boat anyway
because they tend to leak after 30+ years. They're in cored sections of the
deck, so leaking deck fills isn't good.

The deck fill can be removed pretty easily if you can access the underside.
There must be some way for you to get at the hose from underneath and pull
it off. Then you just have to remove the 3 screws or thrubolts on the fill.
(most of my deck fills were screwed into the deck rather than thrubolted).
Then when you remove it you can inspect the coring, reseal it (butyl tape),
and heat it all you want to get the cap free.

I don't think heat has any risk of exploding methane though. If your
holding tank's air vent hose isn't clogged, most gases would go out that
way. Even if that's clogged, I'm assuming you haven't been using it a ton
in the last week? Older gases in the tank would've dissipated over time.

-Patrick
1984 C LF38

On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 8:19 AM,  wrote:

> From: Chuck Gilchrest 
> To: 
> Cc:
> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 10:57:17 -0400
> Subject: Stus-List Deck Waste fitting dilemma
>
> Suggestions needed:
>
> I purchased the new to me C Landfall 35 that had been “sitting” for a
> number of years.  I’ve painstakingly gone through systems to get everything
> functional and replaced items that needed updates.
>
> So, after several outings on the boat, it was determined that it may be a
> good idea to pump out the holding tank to reduce a growing odor in the boat.
>
> Well the one thing that wasn’t checked in my systems review was the waste
> fitting at the deck which our harbormaster and I have determined has
> corroded itself closed over the years of inactivity.  I’ve tried several
> deck keys and tools (also using a vise grip to serve as an extension to the
> tool), an application of liquid wrench, and finally a punch with a plastic
> tipped mallet to try and free the deck fitting.  No luck.  I just can get
> enough purchase on the tips of the tool into the holes in the deck fitting
> lid as they’re only several mm deep.  Should I drill the holes deeper?
>
>
>
> My next approach is going to involve heat, but here’s where the dilemma
> begins-  Is adding heat to the deck fitting something that may ignite the
> build-up of methane inside the tank?  Can I possibly blow myself and the
> boat up using a butane torch to heat the fitting before beating it into
> submission?   I’ve generally had good luck with applying heat to free
> corrosion caused by dissimilar metals, but the fill cap and flange both
> appear to be chromed bronze and I suspect the bonding has occurred due to
> the corrosive nature of what’s in the tank.   Has anyone come up with a
> “super tool” that can unscrew the most stubborn deck fills?
>
> I also haven’t found below deck access to the deck fitting flange, so I
> have no idea if it is through bolted to the deck with nuts below, or if it
> is simply screwed in place?
>
> While I don’t think the tank is anywhere near full, I’d prefer not to
> spend the entire summer on a boat that smells like a dog kennel so whatever
> help is out there, I’m open to suggestions.
>
> Chuck Gilchrest
>
> Half Magic
>
> 1983 LF 35
>
> Padanaram, MA
>
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Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Yes but if your LF38 has no fuel tank under the radial drive, as on mine,
then there is room for a tiller arm I believe. A prior owner removed the
original tank and installed a 16g one in the bottom of the stbd lazarette.
Eventually I may need more fuel capacity and might have to reconsider the
below steering spot, but given how many people complain about that fuel
tank I think it's a blessing to have it gone from there.

Next year I may consider a below decks autopilot, so it's nice to have more
options. Since I recently replaced the Edson radial drive while dropping
the rudder, I've been up close down there quite a bit (
https://svviolethour.com/2016/05/03/this-years-haul-out-dropping-the-rudder/
). There's about 3-4" of exposed rudder stock below the radial drive, with
a 1/4" keyway that entire length. However since the radial drive is concave
downwards, a tiller arm wouldn't be able to use all of that height-wise -
maybe only 1-2". I *think* it would be enough, but the angles would still
be tricky.

While researching the radial drive I came across this post where a Catalina
owner had his Edson radial drive shatter while sailing:
https://www.catalina36.org/forum/technical-discussion/radial-disk-shattered
He didn't have an autopilot on it, but was missing the two outer screws
which help align the circumference of the disk (maybe contributed, maybe
not).

Bob's tiller arm is mounted to the fwd rudder stop platform of the radial
drive (there's one on each end, the aft one has the rudder stop). That
seems like a better place than randomly drilling through the middle (disc
portion) of the drive - at least it's designed to take some shock loads.

Other threads on this:
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/55443-autopilot-drive-mounting-question.html
http://themarineinstallersrant.blogspot.com/2010/06/you-cant-always-get-what-you-want-and.html

-Patrick
1984 C LF38
Seattle, WA

On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 10:18 AM,  wrote:

> From: Frederick G Street 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 12:18:07 -0500
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38
> Chuck and all — the steering configuration belowdecks on the Landfall 38s
> cannot support a tiller arm.  The quadrant is directly below the cockpit
> sole, and directly above the fuel tank.  There simply is no room for
> anything on the rudder post.  Wal Bryant got a good photo of this area when
> he redid his steering system; I’ve taken the liberty (thanks, Wal!) of
> reposting one of his photos on my web server at
> www.postaudio.net/webserver/LF38steering.jpg.  Looking past the smiley
> face that Wal spray-painted on his new fuel tank, you can see just how
> tight everything is back there.
>
> In virtually all of the autopilot installations I’ve seen where the drive
> is attached directly to the quadrant, the attachment has been strengthened
> with metal plates on one or both sides of the quadrant wheel; this includes
> Bob Boyer’s setup, which he emailed me photos of.  Bob, I hope it’s okay
> for me to take the liberty again of posting one of these photos at
> http://www.postaudio.net/webserver/LF38steering2.jpg.
>
> And Chuck, yes I have been involved in using Octopus hydraulic linear
> drives in autopilot installations; I like their tough dependability and
> strength, and the fact that they only have a few moving parts.  One of
> their downsides in limited spaces, though, is the fact that the actuator
> rod sticks out the back of the drive a fair amount when the drive is at the
> short limit of travel; this can cause issues with structure nearby,
> limiting where and how you can mount the drive.
>
> In any case, there simply isn’t a good spot (really, *ANY* spot) to mount
> a tiller arm on the LF38.
>
> — Fred
>
> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
> S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI
>
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Re: Stus-List My Experience and Mistakes With Interlux

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Paul did you use the white color of KiwiGrip for your's? Your blog said you
were unable to get white KiwiGrip in the winter, but what color did you use
then? It looks pretty white to me.

I'm going to KiwiGrip my cockpit soon, and it seems like white is the way
to go to match most consistently with the existing gelcoat and other
nonskid (which I'm not going to repaint yet because I don't have time).

There's also a cream color of KiwiGrip but I feel like that might look a
little weird.

-Patrick
1984 C LF38
Seattle, WA

On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 9:46 AM,  wrote:

> From: Dreuge 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 12:45:45 -0400
> Subject: Re: Stus-List My Experience and Mistakes With Interlux
> Nice work Ryan.
>
> You may see that you are the only one to notice any imperfections, and
> over time you’ll likely think of these as adding character.
>
>
> I recently paint my topsides and decks using Brightside and
> Kiwigrip(non-skid).  Funny that I started with a “much-too-expensive Purdy
> brush “ but in my case found that cheap $1 Harbor Freight brushes worked
> out better.  Below is a link to my experiences painting the deck.
>
> http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/2015/07/painting-deck.html
>
> -
> Paul E.
> 1981 C 38 Landfall
> S/V Johanna Rose
> Carrabelle, FL
>
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Re: Stus-List Soft thumping/banging when in gear at low-rpm?

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Have you also watched the engine mounts while in low rpm to see if it's
just excess vibration making the noise?

If you want to check the prop for snags without going for a cold water
swim, a GoPro on an extension stick works well. I've used this method
before to check the zincs.

-Patrick
1984 C Landfall 38
Seattle, WA

On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 9:00 AM,  wrote:

> From: Andrew Means 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 15:40:53 -0700
> Subject: Stus-List Soft thumping/banging when in gear at low-rpm?
> *Boat*: 1977 C 34
> *Engine*: Yanmar 3GM30 (F)
> *Prop*: 3 Blade Max Prop
>
> Recently I noticed that when engaged in forward-drive, at low RPM, it
> almost feels like something is banging against the bottom of the hull, like
> a piece of kelp or rope tangled in the prop. Once the RPMs get above 1400
> or so the roughness goes away completely and everything feels very smooth.
>
> Additional info:
>
> + Looking at the propshaft and listening for knocks coming from the engine
> doesn’t reveal anything obvious.
> + We ran aground recently, but just the keel in soft sand. Bottom was
> painted between now and then and yard didn’t report anything amiss.
> + In reverse at the same RPMs everything feels pretty smooth.
>
> I’m waiting for the next 80° day to dive under the boat and see what I can
> see, but was wondering if that’s even where I should be looking. Does this
> sound familiar to anybody else?
>
> Andrew
>
> --
> Andrew Means
> S.V. Safari - 1977 C 34 Mk I
> Seattle, WA
>
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Re: Stus-List Stuffing box options on LF38

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Thanks, it's definitely sounding like the way to go. I'm just extra
cautious when it comes to something enclosing a big hole in the boat. And I
like simple systems, and the PSS is definitely more complex than a
traditional stuffing box. But it sounds like PYI's 6 year recommendation is
just them being extra conservative.

Part of my worry about installing a more complex shaft seal arose from a
local PNW blog report I read last year:
http://www.riveted-blog.com/2015/08/excitement-at-sea.html
http://www.riveted-blog.com/2015/08/hauling-out-in-juneau.html

They suspected their PSS shaft seal of overheating. But they're a motor
boat (so faster speeds), and in the end (in the 2nd post) they found the
issue might have actually been an engine misalignment. I see Martin
actually commented on the 1st one, about needing to burp the seal
sometimes. If that's the only complication I need to know, then I'm happy
with that.

-Patrick

On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 1:49 PM,  wrote:

>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Robert Boyer 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc: Patrick Davin 
> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 14:42:39 -0400
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Stuffing box options on LF38
> I've used a PSS shaft seal on my boat for the last 20 years and I'd never
> go back to a packing gland.  I changed mine out at the 10 year point and it
> looked like it had plenty of life left at that time.  Don't overthink this!
>
> Bob
>
> Bob Boyer
> S/V Rainy Days (1983 C Landfall 38 - Hull #230)
> Blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com
> Email: dainyr...@icloud.com
> Annapolis, MD (presently in Baltimore)
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Stus-List Stuffing box options on LF38

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Sorry for so many questions, but I bit off a bit much on this haul-out...
and I searched the list archives but didn't find much discussion of
alternate stuffing boxes.

My stuffing box is also seized and the packing needs to be replaced. On the
LF38 the stuffing box is under the engine oil pan (v-drive configuration)
with only 4-5" clearance to the sides for a wrench. I haven't found any
wrench that fits yet. A prior owner recommended 3" C-clamps, and those
work, sort of, but I can't get enough leverage - even hammering on it the
seized locking nut hasn't budged.

I'm starting to think that if I finish dropping the rudder this weekend
then I should just pull the prop shaft (partially, because my cutless
bearing doesn't need replacing) and get a new stuffing box.

I know Wally swapped his out for a new Buck Algonquin nut style one - the
same as the original but a slightly nicer newer model, and less corroded
obviously.

Unfortunately it looks like Buck Algonquin doesn't make the gland style
packing box (with 4 bolts that are easily adjustable in tight spaces) for
prop shafts smaller than 1 1/4" (ours is 1 1/8"). That design would be my
preference.

PSS dripless is about the same price though, and tempting... except for two
caveats:

- replacement schedule of the rubber belows is recommended at 6 to 10
years. I don't like that the rubber looks less durable than the 5-ply hose
which should last 20 years. I could accept this shortcoming though,
especially if it's 10 years.
- PSS warns against having oil, fuel or any petroleum products contacting
the belows. LF38 stuffing box is below the engine's oil pan. Oil or fuel is
going to drip on it at some point! Even if you're pretty meticulous about
leaks. I emailed PSS about this but haven't heard back.

I could build a baffle / catch tray of some sorts, and just check it
regularly. Has anyone else installed one in tight quarters and/or below an
engine, and has it been a good decision?

-Patrick
1984 C Landfall 38
Seattle, WA
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Re: Stus-List Rudder collar "donut" removal

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I'm looking into this now, so I'll let you know what I find. Hope to figure
something out by end of week.

Your rudder probably won't fall out if the shaft collar breaks off (the
quadrant or radial drive will hold it) but that would still be a bad thing
- the radial drive would probably fall a few inches (however much distance
you have below it to the rudder tube) which would mess up your steering
wire tension and angles.

I found that the proper name for these is "threaded bore shaft collar."
Stafford (in MA) makes some:
http://shaft-collars-couplings.staffordmfg.com/category/unf-unc-threaded-bore-shaft-collars
It wouldn't be an exact match cosmetically, but the design is better
because it doesn't use evil set screws. Just one option I'm looking into
though.

-Patrick
1984 C Landfall 38

On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:51 AM,  wrote:

> From: Eric Frank 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 13:31:05 -0400
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Rudder collar "donut" removal
> I’ve been watching this saga with some interest.  Last spring I noticed
> that the “donut” on my 35 MkII was cracked in several places, but was told
> on this list that the rudder would not fall off so it wasn’t critical to
> replace it right away.  The donut on Cat’s Paw will be easy to remove
> because it is broken in several places.  Can I get a replacement for it and
> then just screw it on?  How are others dealing with this?
>
> Eric Frank
> Cat's Paw
> C 35 Mk II
> Mattapoisett, MA
>
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Re: Stus-List Rudder collar "donut" removal

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Good news! Lee came by this evening and his mechanical ingenuity enabled us
to get the rudder collar off.

The yard lent me two pipe wrenches - one large one and one really huge one.
I had been trying to use them to unscrew the donut by pushing and pounding
with a rubber mallet, but the secret Lee discovered was putting the really
huge one on the donut and then smacking it with the large one.

I didn't have doubled up set screws, but could tell the set screws had done
a bit of damage to the threaded rudder post. After getting the rudder nut
off it became clearer - the threads of the rudder post are actually
deformed / dented, and the nut was having its threads sheared off. No
amount of lubrication would've helped with that - only brute force can
shear off SS threads. I really don't like set screws now - they're fine for
dodger/bimini tubing but not something this big. I'll take the advice of
using a spacer behind the set screws when I reinstall. (looking into
getting a replacement collar nut now)

Here are some pics: https://goo.gl/photos/tcBkJny4uuqqFnRN9

On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:26 PM, <cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> *From: *"Patrick Davin via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> *To: *cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc: *"Patrick Davin" <jda...@gmail.com>
> *Sent: *Tuesday, April 19, 2016 11:45:29 PM
> *Subject: *Stus-List Rudder collar "donut" removal
>
> I have my boat hauled out now and am trying to drop the rudder.
>
> The stainless steel donut that holds the rudder up, above the thrust
> bearing in the cockpit, is very much stuck. I removed the two set screws
> and am attempting to unscrew (counterclockwise), with the rudder propped up
> (enough that that delrin bearing under the donut is free spinning).
>
> This is the donut pictured on Wally's page:
> http://www.wbryant.com/StellaBoat/Projects/steering/bearing/sole/bs02.jpg
> http://www.wbryant.com/StellaBoat/Projects/steering/bearing/sole/
>
> He got it off with just an oil filter wrench + exhaust hose on past
> occasions, and later with that strap wrench.  I've already applied far more
> force than a strap wrench with no luck. :(
>
> I had planned to have the yard (Seaview) help with this, but apparently
> they have plenty of fiberglass guys but not enough mechanical guys, and are
> backlogged on anything mechanical. So if I want this to go faster I can
> keep trying to do it myself. And saving money by not having them bang away
> at it for $105/hour is probably good anyway. Though honestly I would
> happily do that now if they could get it loose.
>
> I know Frank of S/V Cool Change had a bear of a time with the set screws:
> http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2007-March/009523.html
>   (but I guess the donut wasn't a problem?)
>
> And I know another owner who used a huge pipe wrench with some padding,
> and yard assistance, but ended up damaging it and needing to get a new one.
>
> Things I've tried:
> - PB Blaster, every day for 4-5 days, around the top, into the set screw
> holes, and around the bottom.
> - Loctite Freeze + Release
> - oil filter wrench with rubber pieces to grip
> - threading a bolt into the set screw holes and hammering on that -
> quickly abandoned this because it started to bend the screws and I realized
> it would strip the set screw holes.
> - C clamps
> - Heat gun (I don't have a torch - however I don't think heat will be very
> successful because the mated parts are both stainless steel)
> - Large hose clamp tightened around my rubber gripper ring and hammering
> on the hose clamp screw. I really thought this was the genius idea that
> would finally work. Nothing budged, even with heavy pounding. But the hose
> clamp does the best job of pressing my rubber gripper onto the donut and
> had no slippage.
>
> Is there anything I'm missing? Has anyone else had this hard a time
> getting the donut off, or found anything else that worked?
>
> The Edson radial drive bolts are also seized, but I have some more things
> to try there still, and as last resort it can be cut off and order a new
> one ($500).
>
> If I can get the rudder out I might also consider changing the stuffing
> box, because that is also seized (looks original and probably hasn't been
> adjusted in 5 years).
>
> -Patrick
> 1984 C Landfall 38
> Violet Hour, Seattle, WA
>
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Re: Stus-List Rudder collar "donut" removal

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Hmm, I'm afraid I don't see what you're saying. The pics might help. What
do you mean by "the table"? And he drilled a large diameter hole through
the entire rudder collar donut? That hole would go through the rudder stock
too. Or maybe the 37 has a different rudder attachment. The piece I'm
talking about is completely smooth on the outside, pictured here:
http://www.wbryant.com/StellaBoat/Projects/steering/bearing/sole/bs02.jpg

On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 2:52 PM,  wrote:

> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Dave Godwin 
> To: "C List" 
> Cc:
> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:51:57 -0400
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Rudder collar "donut" removal
> Patrick,
>
> Another “tool” to consider is something we used when we dropped the rudder
> on Ronin. The yard manager cut a section of fiberglass tube, the kind that
> you see when manufacturers glass in exhaust outlets for powerboats and
> worked that up as a big socket. Pretty easy and quick. Maybe cheaper that
> getting something welded up.
>
> In my case, the dimensions are 5.5” tall, OD is 3.5” and the wall
> thickness is 1/8”. With that cut, he created a wooden plug for the top end
> and jammed it into the table. After that he drilled a large diameter hole
> through the entire section. At the bottom he drilled and then cut out the
> slot for the bolt head on my steering top. We ran a long, large diameter
> lag volt through the top section for leverage and turned it fairly easily.
>
> I have pictures if you’d like to see what it looks like.
>
> Best,
> Dave Godwin
> 1982 C 37 - Ronin
> Reedville - Chesapeake Bay
> Ronin’s Overdue Refit 
>
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Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement/repair

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Gene's question is timely since the reason I'm trying to drop my rudder now
is to fix the leaking. I observed weeping at last year's haul-out, drilled
drainage holes, and got about 1/2 cup of reddish rusty smelly water.

My Vancouver surveyor told me water in rudders of old boats is very common,
and he didn't seem too concerned with it. Said to drop the rudder at next
haul-out to dremel around where the stock enters the top of the rudder and
then epoxy that up with Gflex or something similar. The water usually gets
in from the stock entry since the stresses end up cracking the fiberglass
there.

At the yard this week we drilled two 2" hole saw holes. One low, where
tapping revealed a void - that one showed some water is traveling through
the void, and wetting the outer edge of foam, but not traveling through the
closed cell foam - the foam looked pretty good. The other hole was higher,
near the stock. No water found at this one, and no void, but we were able
to see the stock and plate. The welds look good and the stock has only
minor rust marks. The plate is brownish/black, but the yard manager said
that's probably a lower grade of stainless used.

I don't think the LF38 has 3 "fingers" coming out from the stock like the
37+ does, I think it's one contiguous plate. Since the yard manager thought
the rudder looks pretty good, our plan is to drop it to dry it out a bit
more and then seal it up to try to stop the water ingress - and having the
rudder dropped will make the fiberglass repairs of the hole saw holes +
void easier.

Foss Foam will make new rudders for about $5k (for this size), in about 4
weeks time, shipped from FL. A rebuild costs about almost that much. If you
wanted to do a rudder replacement it'd also be worth checking with
Southshore Yachts because they list some C rudders (with 4 week wait time
- I wonder if they're just contracting with Foss to make a template/design
they have).

A guy next to me in the boatyard with an older full keel, skeg protected
rudder is replacing his rudder with a Foss because his rudder was a mess -
the fiberglass skin cracked in multiple places and a prior owner tried to
fix it by fiberglassing over, but didn't grind back all the gelcoat and
fiberglassed over gelcoat in places.

-Patrick
1984 C Landfall 38
Seattle, WA

On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 5:23 AM,  wrote:
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: David Knecht 
> To: CnC CnC discussion list 
> Cc:
> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:22:58 -0400
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement/repair
> Water in the rudder seems to be really common. My rudder was rebuilt
> before I bought the boat.  I think surveyors tend to overdo this as my
> metal also looked fine once the rudder was opened up.  I am curious about
> the foam in Josh’s pictures.  I would have thought it would keep water from
> accumulating inside if it was closed cell foam.  Was it actually wet?
> Also, I discovered last weekend that when my was rebuilt, they did not fill
> the interior with foam because we saw water weeping out of the trailing
> edge and when we drilled into the middle, a large stream of water drained
> out for about 15 minutes.  I am going to have the yard open a hole and fill
> the interior with foam.  The alternative to foam would be to drill a small
> hole every fall and drain it, then plug.Thoughts?  Dave
>
> Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
>
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Stus-List Rudder collar "donut" removal

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I have my boat hauled out now and am trying to drop the rudder.

The stainless steel donut that holds the rudder up, above the thrust
bearing in the cockpit, is very much stuck. I removed the two set screws
and am attempting to unscrew (counterclockwise), with the rudder propped up
(enough that that delrin bearing under the donut is free spinning).

This is the donut pictured on Wally's page:
http://www.wbryant.com/StellaBoat/Projects/steering/bearing/sole/bs02.jpg
http://www.wbryant.com/StellaBoat/Projects/steering/bearing/sole/

He got it off with just an oil filter wrench + exhaust hose on past
occasions, and later with that strap wrench.  I've already applied far more
force than a strap wrench with no luck. :(

I had planned to have the yard (Seaview) help with this, but apparently
they have plenty of fiberglass guys but not enough mechanical guys, and are
backlogged on anything mechanical. So if I want this to go faster I can
keep trying to do it myself. And saving money by not having them bang away
at it for $105/hour is probably good anyway. Though honestly I would
happily do that now if they could get it loose.

I know Frank of S/V Cool Change had a bear of a time with the set screws:
http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2007-March/009523.html
  (but I guess the donut wasn't a problem?)

And I know another owner who used a huge pipe wrench with some padding, and
yard assistance, but ended up damaging it and needing to get a new one.

Things I've tried:
- PB Blaster, every day for 4-5 days, around the top, into the set screw
holes, and around the bottom.
- Loctite Freeze + Release
- oil filter wrench with rubber pieces to grip
- threading a bolt into the set screw holes and hammering on that - quickly
abandoned this because it started to bend the screws and I realized it
would strip the set screw holes.
- C clamps
- Heat gun (I don't have a torch - however I don't think heat will be very
successful because the mated parts are both stainless steel)
- Large hose clamp tightened around my rubber gripper ring and hammering on
the hose clamp screw. I really thought this was the genius idea that would
finally work. Nothing budged, even with heavy pounding. But the hose clamp
does the best job of pressing my rubber gripper onto the donut and had no
slippage.

Is there anything I'm missing? Has anyone else had this hard a time getting
the donut off, or found anything else that worked?

The Edson radial drive bolts are also seized, but I have some more things
to try there still, and as last resort it can be cut off and order a new
one ($500).

If I can get the rudder out I might also consider changing the stuffing
box, because that is also seized (looks original and probably hasn't been
adjusted in 5 years).

-Patrick
1984 C Landfall 38
Violet Hour, Seattle, WA
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Re: Stus-List Bilge pump capacity?

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Yeah, either carrots or potatoes. :)  This is an idea from Yachting
Monthly's Crash Test Boat videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5PDuXvqL7c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUg3TUmnQBs

On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Robert Boyer  wrote:

> Carrots  Funny!
>
> Bob Boyer
> S/V Rainy Days (1983 C Landfall 38 - Hull #230)
> Blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com
> Email: dainyr...@icloud.com
> Annapolis, MD (presently in Baltimore)
>
>
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Stus-List Bilge pump capacity?

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I've been debating my bilge pump plan for a few months now, and having
trouble deciding. What have others here decided is sufficient pump
capacity?

I have two Rule 800s now and am considering upgrading one to an 1100 or
2000 gph, as a high water alarm. That will require upgrading the hose from
3/4" to 1 1/8", and enlarging the thruhull at the toerail. One of the bilge
hoses runs through the stbd head (into the head cubbies) and the other runs
through the hanging locker fwd of the head. Upgrading will require
enlarging some of the hose holes in the boat's liner (below the cabin sole)
probably, and of course hole sawing a larger thru hull. So it's a good deal
more work than just replacing bilge pumps, their wiring, and adding a float
switch + alarm.

>From Wally's page I know he installed a Rule 2000.
http://www.wbryant.com/StellaBoat/Projects/bilgepmp/bilgepmp.htm
However it sounds like Wally's LF38 had his hoses run differently - to the
stern quarter - while mine are to stbd mid-ships.

With two 800's I'm at the low end of the 1600-2000 gph capacity range
recommended by West Marine (and yes I've read all about how actual capacity
may be much lower, due to voltage drop, head pressure, etc). I've also
heard it doesn't make much sense to say that bigger boats need bigger bilge
pumps - a 20' boat will sink just as fast (or faster) with a 1.5" hole as a
38' one will.

I'm more concerned with having the capacity to prevent the boat from
sinking at dock if say a 1.5" thruhull disintegrated somehow. Less
concerned with emergency pumping while onboard, because I'm not going far
offshore and I have a lot of emergency hole plugging options to try (putty,
foam, wood bungs, carrots, etc).

-Patrick
1984 C Landfall 38
Seattle, WA
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Re: Stus-List Helpful Vancouver Surveyors

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I used Aegis Marine Surveyors in Vancouver last year. Timothy McGivney and
his partner Trevor Salmon.
It wasn't cheap, but a little cheaper than Ken Rorison's quote with travel
(ferry)... well worth the money in the end and I felt they did a good job.
I didn't meet Timothy (I couldn't attend the in-the-water day of the
survey) but did meet Trevor at the out of water survey. He explained
everything well, and when I sent some followup questions a month later to
even 6 months later, he replied quickly and with good advice. I also
realized I'm glad I went with a surveyor who has two guys working together
- there's a *lot* to get through in a boat and one person might not spend
as much time on it.

Did the mechanical survey with Stem to Stern in Vancouver (both Rorison and
McGivney recommended them) and they did a good job too.

-Patrick
1984 C LF38
Seattle, WA

On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 8:13 PM,  wrote:

> From: Lee Youngblood 
> To: CnC-List 
> Cc:
> Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 17:06:16 -0700
> Subject: Stus-List Helpful Vancouver Surveyors
> Hi All,
>
> I’m looking for a few good, through surveyor recommendations in the
> Vancouver area.  I am not looking for a "doctor death”, but want a few good
> recommendations of folks that can explain things to a realistic owner, and
> not miss any 500$ issues.  In my experience the ability to actually explain
> things, trumps engineer heads "who know it all”.  If you have something bad
> to say, don’t put it on the list. . .
>
> Thanks for your help, Lee
>
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Re: Stus-List Running lines aft to cockpit on C 34

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Hey Andrew,

I'm in Seattle, work near the Fremont Bridge, and frequently bike by Lake
Union on my way home. If we can find a time I'd be happy to drop by
sometime - might be easier to get some ideas in person, and there's a lot
to cover.

Looks like you're at Affinity, just past Fremont Brewing, which I walk by
almost every afternoon to get in a post-lunch walk (and window shop the
boats at the Pacific Seacraft brokerage).

External reef lines on the boom shouldn't be a problem - I have that, they
run down to a block on the mast collar. If centered, there shouldn't be
much stretch as the boom moves out.

-Patrick
C LF38

On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 9:00 AM,  wrote:

> Hi all - First time poster here, so let me know if I’m doing any of this
> incorrectly. Brief introduction: my name is Andrew Means, I own the S.V.
> Safari, a C 34 MKI moored on Lake Union in Seattle, WA, with three of my
> friends. We sail the Safari—mostly casually—around the Puget Sound region.
> You can see a pic of the Safari here: http://imgur.com/OdrC0Bk
>
> Now to the questions: I'm in the process of reworking my running rigging
> and I'm curious to see how other C 34 owners run lines aft to the
> cockpit. Which lines do you run? How do you get them aft? Which do you
> consider the most important to have in the cockpit?
>
> I've been looking through pictures of C 34s online (mostly found in
> for-sale listings) and trying to get a handle on the best way to run our
> main sheet, vang (to be installed), reefing lines, topping lift, outhaul,
> etc.. I think I have resigned myself to the fact that with our boom
> (original to the boat) we probably aren't going to be able to have the
> reefing lines run aft to the cockpit because they run externally on the
> port side of the boom and a swinging boom would tigthen/loosen them if they
> were run back to a turning block on the mast.
>
> *Priorities:*
> We are generally casual cruisers, often with inexperienced crew. Safety
> while reefing is a big priority, but as noted above I don't see how we can
> run the lines back to the cockpit without a completely new boom with
> internal reefing lines. Prove me wrong?
>
> Here's the state of the union:
>
> *Boom, Port Side - *http://i.imgur.com/yTDeEWR.jpg
> The 1st and 2nd reefing lines terminate on the boom. Topping lift is
> currently cleated mid-boom, which is super annoying. It would be nice to
> have the topping lift  run aft. I’ve been told that the cam cleats are not
> suitable for cleating reefing lines (and I agree, as they’ve slipped out
> before).
>
> *Boom, Starboard Side* - http://i.imgur.com/ixYRPwy.jpg
> Outhaul, flattening reef.
>
> *Mast Base, Port Side* - http://i.imgur.com/7kozeHd.jpg
> Deck organizer currently has main halyard (red fleck) and main sheet (blue
> fleck). Main halyard enters the mast just below the gooseneck.
>
> *Mast Base, Starboard Side* - http://i.imgur.com/XTkuphN.jpg
> Our Jib Halyard is going to be replaced and we're going to get a haylard
> bag on the mast. We'll also likely remove some of this deck hardware (that
> aft winch will be moved to the starboard side of the companionway to handle
> other lines.)
>
> *Cabintop cleats & winch (port)* - http://i.imgur.com/DHavs7p.jpg
> I'm replacing these abominations with a proper triple rope clutch, forward
> of the winch.
>
> Well, what do you folks think? For cruising around Puget Sound, San Juans,
> etc. and a little bit of beer can racing, how would you set this up? Pics
> of your own setup would be hugely appreciated, especially if you've got a
> C 34 or something of similar vintage!
>
> Thanks in advance for the advice, looking forward to knowing other C
> owners!
>
> Andrew
>
> --
> Andrew Means
>
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Re: Stus-List West coast rendezvous

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I'll also be doing Desolation Sound this summer, and likely further north.
June thru August, if we can get three months off. So there's a good chance
we will try to make the rendezvous August 5-7. Hard to say for sure now -
as they say, cruisers plans are written in sand at low tide. But we should
definitely sync up on plans in May/June!

Also I'll be doing a haul-out at Seaview from April 15th for about a week,
so if I don't see you before then, I can give you the 3/8" epdm foam I
promised then.

-Patrick
S/V Violet Hour

On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 3:00 PM,  wrote:
>
> From: "svpegasu...@gmail.com" 
> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" 
> Cc:
> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 11:08:52 -0700 (PDT)
> Subject: Stus-List West coast rendezvous
>
> I am planning on sailing to Desolation Sound in July and stopping at the
> Rendezvous on the way home to Seattle. If anyone wants to meet up somewhere
> or sail with me give me a shout. I could use crew as my girlfriend has to
> work, and won't be able to make the whole trip. She has to support me in
> the manner I wish to become accustomed to.
>
>  I plan on leaving seattle around the middle of July and returning the
> middle of August.
>
>
> Doug Mountjoy
>
> svPegasus
>
> LF38
>
> just west of Ballard, WA.
>
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Re: Stus-List little A hatches on a LF38

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I finished installing the new hatch lenses this weekend. Thanks again Fred
for the effort you went to getting these made and shipped!  Here are some
before + after photos showing how great they look:

https://goo.gl/photos/JZBXFFRNyUYRhWAD9

It took me 8 hours, about 4 for each window. But if you're not an OCD
perfectionist it might take you half that time.

And a few tips for those who haven't installed yet (sorry this turned out
very long):

- Surprisingly, dis-assembly went quite quick - I expected some seriously
corroded / stuck fasteners, but brute force (no breaker bar needed) got
them all apart without breaking. Used PB Blaster on one, not sure if it
made a difference.
- The lenses were about 1/8" longer than my current ones, and didn't quite
fit - so I had to sand down a few corners with a Dremel sanding drum. I'm
not sure if there were slight variations in the frame size from year to
year, or if it's just a cutting inaccuracy (it's hard cutting to within
millimeter precision, so I don't blame the fabricator!). I used a coarse
sanding drum, then medium, and finished hand sanding with 180 or 320 grit.
- The biggest time sink comes down to how your hinges are done. The
original hinges have a cast aluminum tapped (threaded) cylinder attached to
the hinge, which an SS bolt was screwed into. It's a neat design (no
penetrations above the hinge means fewer things to seal) but obviously
dissimilar metals corrode. There are basically two options:
   - My head hatch already had the hinges thru-bolted (drill 1/4" and mount
a hex bolt through it from the top). One hinge I had done myself when the
aluminum disintegrated last year, and the other had already been done.
However I still had to dremel down the remaining cast aluminum cylinder -
in order to get the hinges to seat flush with the new acrylic, because I
don't want to drill a 5/8" clearance hole like the lenses originally had. A
1/4" hole is much easier to drill (but then the cylinder can't seat in
that).
   - Reuse the existing tapped aluminum. My galley hatch ones were in
surprisingly good shape. After some cleanup with mineral spirits, the
original bolts threaded into the aluminum just fine. So I decided to save
the trouble of cutting them of, and reuse them (with lots of Lanocote or
TefGel). However drilling 5/8" holes in acrylic is hard, so that created
some trouble. The fitting is 1/2" but the original holes were 5/8" - you
need some clearance for expansion. Plas Drill bits max out at 1/2", and I
didn't have one that size on hand anyway. I did a test drill on the old
hatch acrylic with a 1/2" standard bit, and it took a big chip out of the
surface when it exited the other side. 1/2" drill bits are hard to use even
on wood without chipping. I bought a 5/8" Forstner bit and a 5/8" cheap
hole saw and went to the shop to use the drill press. This page has advice,
including on forstner bits for acrylic: http://www.bcae1.com/plexi.htm
The Forstner was very slow and required a lot of pressure on the drill
press. It didn't melt, but I wouldn't use it again for acrylic this thick.
The Forstner chipped the edge on the exit. And broke the drill stop collar
on the drill press. But I didn't have a plywood backer, I was using a
doubled-over cardboard Amazon box (because I couldn't find my drilling
backer at the time) - so this was my fault for a dumb idea.
On the next hole, the hole saw with the aggressive teeth did melt the
acrylic, but went much faster. Water didn't really seem to slow the
melting, but the melted bits were not really a problem. The acrylic is so
thick and the 5/8" hole quite large, that a little melting on the perimeter
caused no noticeable damage.

- 1/4" Plas Drill bit worked great. I used that for the knob latch screws
and for the two thru-bolts on the head hatch. The thru-bolts I used were
1/4" I think, so I jangled the bit around to enlarge the hole so I'd have a
bit more clearance for heat expansion. If I were to redo the 5/8" holes I
think I'd get a 1/2" Plas Drill and then enlarge the hole with a Dremel.

I did all this while we had two gales blow through Seattle this weekend.
The one on Sunday winds peaked at 57 knots. Finishing the install with a 5
to 8 degree heel to the boat was fun. :)

-Patrick
1984 C Landfall 38
Seattle, WA

On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 9:00 AM,  wrote:

> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Frederick G Street 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 09:22:35 -0600
> Subject: Re: Stus-List little A hatches on a LF38
> Okay, here’s what I’ve got so far for replacement lenses for the small
> galley/head hatches:
>
> Paul Eugenio (maybe x2, but not sure)
> Patrick Davin x2
> Dan Sheer x2
> Don Harben x1
> Doug Mountjoy x2
> Jim Schwartz x2
>
>
> That gives me a total of NINE for sure; I can get them for the
> previously-quoted $65.00 each.  I should be able to ship in the US via
> Priority Mail for $20 (large flat rate box); Canada, I’m 

Re: Stus-List Drilling 5" hole in the deck

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

You're right to worry, but with a good plan and advice the project is very
doable. The heater exhaust cap thru-deck hole has been a persistent source
of leaks on our boat, and the prior owner who installed it made some poor
choices (and some good ones - I don't blame him for the job not lasting
forever, I could've easily made the same mistakes).

- The biggest challenge in my opinion is mounting the cap on a curved
surface without it ever rotting or leaking. Our prior owner layered wood
(some kind not as good as teak), glued the layers together and contoured it
to the deck. After 10 years or so the layers became unglued and rotted, and
leaked terribly.
- I replaced with a solid teak winch plate (about 1.5" thick which you can
get at Fisheries), drilled with a 5" hole saw and then somewhat contoured
to the deck - this was difficult and I would've been better off with a
larger block of teak (~3" thick) but couldn't find any sources of teak that
thick - most teak comes as sheets or trim pieces which are less than 1"
thick. I didn't want to glue pieces together and have it rot/leak like the
prior version.
- I think the best option might be an idea Wally Bryant used for one of his
projects (I can't find the link because I can't recall which project it
was). But I believe he poured epoxy into a mold to make a contoured deck
pad. I should've tried that, but it seemed a bit advanced for my project
skills and wood is easy + forgiving to work with.
- The deck will probably be cored in whichever area you pick. Make sure to
epoxy coat the coring. And if you do thru bolts for the cap base, epoxy pot
those.


To some of your other questions:
- I wouldn't rule out an exhaust run with a 45 degree elbow. Our's has two
45 degree elbows and it works fine. Plus an elbow would let you get more of
the exhaust run inside the cabin, to reduce the above deck chimney.
- Flat spot is preferable for the cap (easier to seal), but as you say, the
flat spot isn't big enough so that might not be perfect. Also that area
(winch mount area) is probably reinforced coring (plywood, and thicker)
rather than balsa, which will be more difficult to drill through.
- You can definitely cap the exhaust and swap in the chimney when you need
to use it. Seems like a bit of a pain to me, but you probably will use the
heater only a small percentage of your total sailing days, so maybe not
really that bad.
- Exhaust to fore of the mast will take a lot more water from waves when
you're sailing. So you might need the cap in when sailing regardless of
chimney height anyway. My exhaust is aft of the mast, on the port galley
bulkhead, so it rarely if ever takes waves.


You can find a couple pictures of my exhaust cap rebuild here (search for
"cap" or "exhaust"):
http://svviolethour.com/2015/10/25/projects-projects-and-more-projects/
And more diesel heater details here:
http://svviolethour.com/2015/12/25/how-to-recondition-a-diesel-pot-style-cabin-heater/

-Patrick
1984 C Landfall 38
Seattle, WA

On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 3:19 PM,  wrote:

> From: Stevan Plavsa 
> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" 
> Cc:
> Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 13:48:04 -0500
> Subject: Stus-List Drilling 5" hole in the deck
> Hi All,
>
> Some of you may recall I reached out to the list for feedback on heaters.
> I went with the Dickinson Newport Diesel fireplace. I have an Atomic 4 so
> primary fuel is gasoline and the espar/webasto type heaters, at least as
> far as their literature is concerned, should not be installed anywhere
> there's a gasoline tank which ruled out the cockpit locker for an install
> location and pretty well ruled out the diesel furnace style heaters
> altogether.
>
> Took delivery of the heater last week and drove the two hours to the boat
> on Sunday. Right now I'm thinking, "what did I get myself into?". As I was
> measuring the boat for the chimney and final install location of the heater
> I had a bit of a panic: 5" hole
>
> Please see pics of install location here:
> https://goo.gl/photos/4GYL7SXqUZE3USRCA
>
> Note the roll of tape is just a visual indicator, it's only 4" diameter so
> the hole will be bigger. The heater will be installed along the edge of the
> bulkhead where will it be close to the mast and mostly out of the way as
> one has to squeeze past the mast to get into the dinette seat anyway. The
> cushion pictured is from the aft seat of the dinette, I used it to
> illustrate how the existing cushion back will be modified to accommodate a
> lower heater install. The original cushion will be cut down, stainless
> backing will be installed behind the heater and at the end of the day I'm
> hoping for a pretty clean looking install, hopefully.
>
> My question: is that a bad place for a 5" hole? There is a flat spot on
> the coach roof a little aft and to starboard (winch mount location maybe)
> but that would involve elbows and Dickinson recommends a straight run for
> the 

Re: Stus-List cockpit port on a Landfall 38

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

The C 43 had balsa core in vertical cockpit surfaces? That seems really
surprising. There's no core in the LF38 cockpit wall to the left of the
companionway, at least from what I observed removing an old Datamarine
display. It's about 1/4" of fiberglass.

If the 43 had coring in vertical cockpit surfaces does that mean those
walls are close to 1" thick?  I've been working under the assumption that
the only coring I have in the cockpit is in the floor, so just want to make
sure I'm not missing anything here.

-Patrick
1984 C Landfall 38

On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 3:19 PM,  wrote:

> From: Martin DeYoung 
> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" 
> Cc:
> Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 22:27:34 +
> Subject: Re: Stus-List cockpit port on a Landfall 38
>
> A word of caution regarding the Fuller Brush Co plastic portlights.  One
> of those in Calypso’s cockpit had a hidden crack in the frame. For years
> (likely 30+) it allowed rain/spray water to leak into the balsa core.  The
> crack did not show up until I disassembled the inner and outer frames.
>
>
>
> If your portlight frame is vulnerable to physical damage or shows existing
> damage to the flanges I recommend a thorough inspection.  Check closely the
> overlapping inner and outer flanges especially where water is able to pool.
>
>
>
> I replaced Calypso’s Fuller Brush portlight with a Lewmar model with an
> aluminum frame.  I epoxied the portlight cut out to prevent any future
> balsa damage.
>
>
>
> Martin DeYoung
>
> Calypso
>
> 1971 C 43
>
> Seattle
>
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Re: Stus-List cockpit port on a Landfall 38

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Mine is a Beckson "rain drain" opening port:
http://www.beckson.com/opening.html

It has "Beckson pat no 4095640" stamped on it (patent number) and is
approximately 14" x 3.75" interior dimensions.
I'm assuming you're talking about the cockpit window to port of the
companionway entrance, in the mostly-vertical area left of the original
depth/speed displays.

-Patrick
1984 C 38 Landfall

On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 3:19 PM,  wrote:

> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Dreuge 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 13:58:12 -0500
> Subject: Stus-List cockpit port on a Landfall 38
>
> Does anyone know the make and model of the cockpit opening portlights on a
> Landfall 38?  I inherited one which has been sealed up.  It has not leaked
> so I have not messed with it.  But now that I have my hatches in working
> order, it is time to remove the goop and get this port in working order too.
>
>
>
> -
> Paul E.
> 1981 C 38 Landfall
> S/V Johanna Rose
> Carrabelle, FL
>
> http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/
>
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Re: Stus-List When to reef C 33-2

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

There's no simple answer to this (it's something you may just have to find
your own preferences for) but the common answer is around 15 knots - or
wait till 20 knots, but you'll probably be compensating for over-canvasing
at that point (traveled way down, dumping wind, pinching up in gusts, etc).

You can check out this thread from the archives where I asked a similar
question last year:
http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2015-August/077522.html

I tend to not reef until 20 kts, because in the PNW if it gets to 15-20 kts
in a northerly (high pressure zone), it's typically only for 10 minutes or
so, so it's not worth bothering to reef - it'll be back down to its normal
10-15 in a few minutes.

Also makes a big difference whether you have a wind speed instrument or
not. If not, you're guesstimating wind speed and are going to need to use
other signs as well - like weather helm.

-Patrick
1984 C Landfall 38
Seattle, WA

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 6:00 PM,  wrote:
>
> From: 
> To: "C List" 
> Cc:
> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 01:42:17 + (UTC)
> Subject: Stus-List When to reef C 33-2
> Can't wait for spring to get out on our (new to us) 33-2. Looking for
> input on when folks start to reef.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Doug
>
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Re: Stus-List Butyl tape

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Defender doesn't sell it. They sell Life Safe butyl tape, which as far as I
can tell is not the same as Bed-It. (besides the name, the color of the
tape is also different so I assume it's not just a rebranding of an
identical product).

I bought Bed-it tape from Hamilton Marine. That was the only marine store I
found that sold it. I wanted only one roll and MaineSail ships min two. I
assumed buying through Hamilton Marine still supports him though, since
he's the inventor of it.
http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/butyl-tape-bed-it-1-2-x-50-roll-755207-/4,59595.html

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 7:41 AM,  wrote:

> From: Bill Bina - gmail 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 10:36:50 -0500
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Butyl tape
> ONLY use Bed-it brand. The others are not the same thing. Defender carries
> or you can get it from:
>
> http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/butyl_tape
>
> Bill Bina
>
___

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Re: Stus-List Boom vanging...

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Good timing on this topic, I just finished installing my new Garhauer
RV-20-1SL vang. Thinking about writing a blog post on it (svviolethour.com)
since I've been so happy with it so far (though haven't yet used it
sailing! Just installed 3 days ago).

It's the best deal in boating I've found so far - less than $500 is a
really reasonable price compared to other boating items with comparable
quantities of stainless steel, turning blocks, line and custom SS mast +
boom fittings.

Took about an hour to make the mast/boom templates and 7 hours to install
(cut all these times in 1/2 or 1/4 if you're not a perfectionist like me,
and not learning all these skills from scratch). 1 hour of that was to
remove the existing boom vang U-bolt fitting which was in the boom (hard to
work it down to the end of the boom), and ~2 hours was for fixing the part
I messed up - my center punch hadn't arrived from Amazon yet so the drill
chattered a bit and a couple holes ended up 1/16" - 1/8" off - enough to
not allow tapped machine screws in. Had to dremel out the fitting holes a
little larger with the tungsten carbide cutter.

-Patrick
Seattle, WA
1984 C LF38

On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 12:12 PM,  wrote:

> From: Chuck Saur 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 12:47:58 -0500
> Subject: Stus-List Boom vanging...
> Here's another post to get some experience-based advising.  I am looking
> to purchase a rigid boom vang to replace the topping lift (damn thang)
> which is always in the way of everything.   I will also replace the
> blocks/line I have as manual vang. Tangs are built-in on the boom and mast
> base. I don't want hydraulics, but wonder who can recommend which vang/size
> and other considerations (vendor, etc) based on your purchase/use of them.
>
> There is Forespar, Garhauer, Boomkicker, etc.  Some are less expensive but
> appear the same.  Thoughts?
>
>
>
>
> *Chuck Saur*
> Morning Sky
> C 35-3
> Hessel Michigan
>
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Re: Stus-List Vessel Documentation

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I'm surprised so many people on here are USCG documented. I thought USCG
documentation (as opposed to merely state registration) is mostly only
beneficial to those traveling internationally. (and not everyone commenting
travels internationally).

So if you don't travel outside of the US and Canada, what motivated you to
go USCG documented?  There's a small fee savings sometimes (USCG fee is
one-time while state is annual), but not much - USCG documentation doesn't
exempt you from state excise taxes (if any). And Washington state requires
state registration even if you're USCG documented, except for exempt
vessels (mainly commercial vessels). So no fee savings for Washington.

-Patrick
C LF38
Seattle, WA
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Re: Stus-List winter condensation

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

One thing to keep in mind is that at some point the surface area of calcium
chloride exposed becomes more important than how much volume/weight of it
you have. I've found a big tub of Damprid will eventually form a solid
layer at the top. At that point all the bulk dry salt under there is doing
you no good. It helps to stir it up / break up the surface scale once in a
while, but more important is how much surface area you have exposed -
instead of one bucket I do many small containers around the boat, mostly in
the cabinets/cupboards which don't have good air flow.

The 4-lb Damprid tubs come with some grayish filler beads in it which are
intended to help determine when the tub is used up. They also sell smaller
packs without the filler beads, useful if you're subdividing Damprid into
multiple containers.

It's $10 for the 4-lb tub:
http://www.amazon.com/DampRid-FG50T-Hi-Capacity-Moisture-Absorber/dp/B0029EGUNG/ref


On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 11:53 AM,  wrote:

> -- Forwarded message --
> From: "Della Barba, Joe" 
> To: "'cnc-list@cnc-list.com'" 
> Cc:
> Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 18:29:14 +
> Subject: Re: Stus-List winter condensation
>
> Note that Damp-Rid is actually calcium chloride. I am going to buy a big
> bag of it at Home Depot and leave a bucket sitting out.
>
> We will see how well that works.
> Joe
>
> Coquina
>
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Proper Blower Installation - 30 mki

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Interesting. We have a full cockpit enclosure too, but it doesn't cover the
two stern dorades (they're outside the enclosure) which I presume feed
engine air pretty well (they're above where the old blower was).  Our
enclosure also is nowhere near air tight - lots of air comes in / leaves
through the open corners and bottom edges. But diesels could consume a lot
of air so with a really air tight enclosure also enclosing the dorades I
could see the need for a blower.



On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 6:08 AM, Robert Boyer <dainyr...@icloud.com> wrote:

> I have a full cockpit enclosure on s/v Rainy Days.  When motoring with the
> enclosure in place, the engine's intake air must come from within the
> enclosure, reducing the oxygen content in the enclosure.  I have a new
> blower but the intake and exit are presently inside the enclosure.  I have
> to modify my enclosure so that its not this way.   So, if you ever plan on
> adding a full cockpit enclosure, you have to pay attention to where the
> engine's intake air is coming from...
>
> Bob
>
> Bob Boyer
> S/V Rainy Days / Annapolis MD
> 1983 C Landfall 38 - Hull #230
> email: dainyr...@icloud.com <dainyr...@icloud.com>
> blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com
>
> "There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply
> messing about in boats."  --Kenneth Grahame
>
> On Dec 28, 2015, at 12:13 AM, Patrick Davin via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> Since we were talking blowers last week, I wonder why C installed marine
> blowers even on boats that didn't have gas engines?
>
> I just today removed the rusted out ignition-protected blower in the stern
> of my boat, which looked original. It had been disabled a while ago by a
> prior owner (had no hoses attached, and the electrical wires aren't live)
> but never completely removed.
>
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxfHpwssU_6NdlFtMXJRRTdIZzg/view?usp=sharing
>
> West Marine has a page saying blowers are a must for gasoline, less so for
> diesel but sometimes still advisable for air supply to the engine. But our
> engine compartments are so huge and leaky (compared to many more modern
> boat designs - like a Jeanneau with an insulated below-companionway-stairs
> engine installation) that it seems quite unnecessary. Maybe that was the
> thinking of the times in the 80's?
>
> -Patrick
> 1984 C LF38
> Seattle, WA
>
> On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 8:27 AM, <cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: Nate Flesness <nateflesn...@gmail.com>
>> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
>> Cc:
>> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 16:59:18 -0600
>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Proper Blower Installation - 30 mki
>> My 1980 30-1 has two hoses connected to the stern vents. One hose is
>> blower exhaust, the other runs forward to just aft of the engine and
>> sits there - air intake. I turn the tops accordingly. Very likely this is
>> original. The hose diameter fits tightly on the vent base, so 3" I.D.?
>>
>> Nate
>> "Sarah Jean"
>> Siskiwit Bay Marina
>> Lake Superior
>>
>
>
> ___
>
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
> bottom of page at:
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>
>
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Re: Stus-List Proper Blower Installation - 30 mki

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Diesel doesn't vaporize easily, unlike gasoline. That's one of its big
advantages on boats, that it's non-volatile. It's good practice to shut
down the engine at the fuel dock anyway, but they're probably asking that
more as a general policy due to the gasoline boats they fill (or in case
some gasoline vapors wafted over to your boat).

The flash point (vaporization temp) of diesel is 126 F:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point#Examples

There's a good writeup on engine blowers here:
http://www.unitedmarine.net/blog/index.php/2013/01/30/who-needs-engine-room-blowers/

On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 6:09 AM,  wrote:

> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Rick Rohwer 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 22:16:22 -0800
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Proper Blower Installation - 30 mki
> I am pretty sure vaporized diesel will blow up like gasoline vapor.  I
> know vaporized cooking fat will.  Don’t most of the fuel docks ask you to
> shut down the engine and run the fan while fueling?
>
> I had never thought of it as an air supply for the engine.
>
> Rick
> Paikea 37+
> Poulsbo, WA
>
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Re: Stus-List Proper Blower Installation - 30 mki

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Since we were talking blowers last week, I wonder why C installed marine
blowers even on boats that didn't have gas engines?

I just today removed the rusted out ignition-protected blower in the stern
of my boat, which looked original. It had been disabled a while ago by a
prior owner (had no hoses attached, and the electrical wires aren't live)
but never completely removed.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxfHpwssU_6NdlFtMXJRRTdIZzg/view?usp=sharing

West Marine has a page saying blowers are a must for gasoline, less so for
diesel but sometimes still advisable for air supply to the engine. But our
engine compartments are so huge and leaky (compared to many more modern
boat designs - like a Jeanneau with an insulated below-companionway-stairs
engine installation) that it seems quite unnecessary. Maybe that was the
thinking of the times in the 80's?

-Patrick
1984 C LF38
Seattle, WA

On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 8:27 AM,  wrote:

>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Nate Flesness 
> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" 
> Cc:
> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 16:59:18 -0600
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Proper Blower Installation - 30 mki
> My 1980 30-1 has two hoses connected to the stern vents. One hose is
> blower exhaust, the other runs forward to just aft of the engine and sits
> there - air intake. I turn the tops accordingly. Very likely this is
> original. The hose diameter fits tightly on the vent base, so 3" I.D.?
>
> Nate
> "Sarah Jean"
> Siskiwit Bay Marina
> Lake Superior
>
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Re: Stus-List Zinc decay

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Since I just finished reading Nigel Calder's chapter on corrosion, I'll
take a crack at this.

Just speculating here, but do you have any other anodic metals that could
have been acting as anodes instead of your zincs before?  Ex, if you had
the prop painted with zinc chromate, I believe that could act as the anodic
zinc first. If that is used up now, it could explain why galvanic corrosion
moved on to your prop nut + shaft zincs.

Next thing I would worry about is stray current corrosion. I think of stray
current corrosion as like galvanic corrosion on steroids. A weak DC current
in the water can waste zincs hundreds of times faster than galvanic
corrosion. Stray current corrosion on a mooring would have to be coming
from your boat. It can be caused by things like a partial short in your
bilge water (ex, bad bilge pump). You can test for it with a silver/silver
chloride half cell (costs about $120) using the procedure in Nigel's book.

-Patrick
1984 C LF38
Seattle, WA

On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 9:00 AM,  wrote:

> -- Forwarded message --
> From: David Knecht 
> To: CnC CnC discussion list 
> Cc:
> Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 11:47:25 -0500
> Subject: Stus-List Zinc decay
> When my boat was pulled from the water this year I was surprised to find
> that the Max-prop zinc was gone, one of the shaft zincs was gone and the
> other was nearly gone.  I have had this configuration in past years and
> every other year at the end of the season I could barely justify replacing
> them because there was so little metal decay.  I know of nothing I did
> differently this year.  I am on a mooring so rarely plugged into shore
> power.  What would cause a dramatic increase in zinc decay?  Thanks and
> Happy Holidays to all!  Dave
>
> Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
>
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Stus-List Anchor locker lid attachment

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Next up on my winter project list: reinforcing the anchor locker lid
attachment.

C's are made really well for the most part, but I had a "what were they
thinking???" moment this weekend. I was investigating the anchor locker lid
hinge (which is screwed into a recessed area of the deck) because several
screws have pulled out and there are rust stains. The surprise was it looks
like the 15-20 screws for the hinge went into wood coring. Screws in wood
core, in the wettest part of the boat! (the foredeck takes the most waves,
and when at dock it's always humid from rain)

Pictures:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BxfHpwssU_6NQThGM1AzTmxabU0=sharing

Has anyone else redone their anchor locker hinge? Can you confirm that it's
cored, or am I on the crazy pills?

The reason I suspected core in the first place is that the lid hinge is
about 1" outside of the deck area where all fiberglass was used along the
toe rail. Tap testing / sounding doesn't reveal any significant
differences, so I think the issue is very contained, surprisingly. It seems
like if they had made the anchor locker an inch or so wider, they wouldn't
have had to screw in to coring - but maybe the fiberglass layer isn't thick
enough to fit the screws. Anyway, I'm thinking ream out some core from each
hole, dry it out for 3-7 days (which may not be doable till the summer),
fill with thickened epoxy and redrill.

-Patrick
1984 C Landfall 38
Seattle, WA
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Re: Stus-List How to attach a rigid boom vang on LF38

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Ah, yes, your blog post has a good picture of one possible setup with a
rigid vang.
Doesn't the vang hit the mainsheet when you're on a port downwind tack?
I've had issues with even my non-rigid vang doing that, and it makes it
difficult to sheet the main in.

Good call on using the deck block for the vang control line - I forgot I'll
need something for that to run it back to the cockpit - so that block won't
go to waste.

My 2 cents on the lines led aft vs at mast debate: It probably depends on
what area of the world you cruise in, but here in the PNW when it's cold
and rainy I'd much rather stay under the dodger and bimini.

-Patrick

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 1:56 PM,  wrote:

> From: Dreuge 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 13:42:59 -0500
> Subject: Re: Stus-List How to attach a rigid boom vang on LF38
>
> Sorry, I forgot to change the subject heading before.
> ———
>
>
> Patrick,
>
> My  mainsheet block is  attached to the mast collar.  I have a block lead
> like the one you mention, it is used for the rigid vang control, in my case
> a Selden Rodkicker 20.
>
>
> I have a photo of the set up on the blog where I describe replacing the
> gas shock for the rodkicker.
>
>
> http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/2015/11/repairing-broken-selden-rodkicker.html
>
>
>
> -
> Paul E.
> 1981 C 38 Landfall
> S/V Johanna Rose
> Carrabelle, FL
>
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Stus-List How to attach a rigid boom vang on LF38

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I'm thinking of getting a Garhauer rigid vang. Only problem - the dang
mainsheet block lead is in the way. It's mounted on deck in the standard
location a few inches behind the mast collar, then the main sheet runs
vertically up to a boom block. If I mount the boom vang to port of the main
sheet, it'll bind / rub on a starboard broad reach (I think). Or similarly
for the other side.

How have other LF38 owners attached a rigid vang? I'm sure there are more
than just one who have made the upgrade.

Wally has some good writeups on his running rigging and moving his main
sheet padeye. But, it's not clear to me exactly how he ran the vang, and it
seems like he was unhappy with how the main sheet padeye move worked out
(it ended up being in the way). And I'm not sure if he ever installed the
rigid vang he was thinking of upgrading to.

http://www.wbryant.com/StellaBoat/Projects/runrig/mapadeye/mpad.htm

http://www.wbryant.com/StellaBoat/Projects/runrig/pad2/pad2.htm

I know from the archives that Nick of "Parbleu!" installed a Garhauer vang,
but he didn't mention anything of changing the leads.
http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2011-January/036831.html

Maybe it doesn't matter because although the mainsheet will get bent a bit
by the vang, the smooth metal won't be enough to chafe it or make trimming
difficult? Or does everyone move their main sheet padeye?

Here's a pic of the current layout:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxfHpwssU_6NY0ZoeVBpV244UDQ/view?usp=sharing

Main sheet is the red one, and the turning block immediately to stbd of it
(white line with blue/black tracers) is the current non-rigid vang attached
to the mast collar. That one binds too, but it's not too bad because the
block+shackle gets it out far enough that usually just the blocks are
hitting.

-Patrick
1984 C Landfall 38
Seattle, WA
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Re: Stus-List off topic Skiing

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

$119 CAD is only $87 in US dollars!  Plus, since you're a Washington
resident you can get the Edge card which is $76 USD for 1 day. That's only
$7 more than Steven's Pass at $69, and Whistler has a lot more terrain. The
5 hour drive is what deters me though. Stevens had 9" of powder yesterday,
really fun time.

-Patrick
C LF 38
Seattle, WA

On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 5:45 PM,  wrote:

>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Rick Rohwer 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:44:16 -0800
> Subject: Re: Stus-List : off topic Skiing
> Enivous about equador, and you living in BC and skiing anywhere but BC.
>
> On another note, I think I have given up on skiing in Whistler so it’s all
> yours!  I think they have finally hit my personal affordability index with
> $119 for a tow ticket. Explains why you are skiing in Colorado!
>
> Cheers
> Rick
> Paikea 37+
> Poulsbo, WA
>
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Re: Stus-List Rot in non-structural bulkhead - thoughts?

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

@Dave, I think you're probably right. Water could have gotten onto the
battery ledge from condensation or past engine leaks (the exhaust run was
replaced a few years ago, maybe the reason was that it was leaking). A cup
or so of standing water would just sit there until the next time the boat
was sailed on a port tack or motored in waves enough to induce roll. I
think I should also drill some limber holes at the back corners of the
battery ledge.

Thanks for the tips, I'm new to things like this, hadn't even thought of
the hole saw trick for starting a cut. I didn't really understand your
mouse hole idea though. The rotted area (tested tapping a screwdriver) is
one section about 4" horizontal at the base by 2-3" high, and the other
section about 12" horizontal and 6-8" high (a very large mouse hole).
What's a "dutchman"?

I'm going to bring my moisture meter to the boat so I can get a better idea
of how much is rotted and how much isn't.
Initially the bluish / grey tint to the wood where the paint has peeled
back worried me, making me think the entire area is bad (even though it
taps out okay). Now I've realized I think C used wood that has a blue /
gray laminate or base paint layer. Because I see a similar color in the
galley shelves where the white paint is peeling back a little.

@Rick, there is an access panel from the quarterberth, but that panel is
vertically above the area where the issue is, and it juts out about 8" - in
other words, the battery cubby is inset / receded under the quarterberth.
Hard to describe. So to see the wall rot from there I'd have to stick my
head into the engine space, push my head down and try to bend my neck
around the corner to get at the wall. I think it will be much easier to go
in through the below-quarterberth storage, but I'll probably have to remove
the quarterberth base panel to do that.

Sorry the pictures aren't great, it's a tough area to photograph. I
should've taken a video with my GoPro.

-Patrick

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 5:14 PM,  wrote:

>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Dave Syer 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com, "jda...@gmail.com" 
> Cc:
> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 19:17:48 -0500
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Rot in non-structural bulkhead - thoughts?
> Sorry - a little hasty and the dreaded double post.
>
> If the entire bottom is rotten along a 2-3' length I would cut it out.
> First though, make sure by prodding it hard with a screwdriver along its
> length. Wash with bleach so you can see past the mildew..
>
> I would be very surprised if the rot was not a result of standing water
>> collecting at the bottom.   Even condensation dripping down if it is humid
>> as you say.   Any rot I've found in various boats started at the end grain,
>> and typically low down where water collects.  The holes cut for wires are a
>> typical trouble spot as there is plenty of end grain which has not been
>> glassed or finished conscientiously.   After you identify the rotted areas,
>> cut out the rot at described below, or if its a bigger area, buy or borrow
>> a Fein oscillating tool with a bimetal blade.  This is a gift for boat
>> surgeons.   As below, ensure the repair is saturated with epoxy.
>>
>> My thought would be to cut above the area of rot it with a hole saw, then
>> cut vertically down to the bottom, making a mouse hole.  Size everything to
>> remove the rot.  Make the mouse hole big enough to work/sand inside.   Wash
>> the whole area with bleach to kill any spores.   (Careful around diesel)
>> Rough radius the sharp corners, sand the bottom flat and coat the whole
>> thing in epoxy.  Paint it white so you can see problems/mole later. If
>> you need to close the hole, make a cover that laps the sides, much easier
>> than fitting a 'dutchman'. (Unless you enjoy that  sort of thing as I do).
>> I'd be tempted to leave the mouse hole open to allow it to drain and let
>> the air move.  My 33ii has several areas that would (and will) benefit from
>> greater air movement.
>>
>> Dave.
>>
>
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Re: Stus-List Rot in non-structural bulkhead - thoughts?

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Good point about the engine heat / fumes. I hadn't even thought of that.
Definitely don't want to leave ventilation holes in this then. The storage
under the qtrberth shouldn't need ventilation anyway.

Thanks for the advice everyone! This project feels much more manageable
now.

-Patrick

On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 3:15 PM,  wrote:

> From: Rick Brass 
> To: 
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 17:59:18 -0500
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Rot in non-structural bulkhead - thoughts?
>
> I understand the location now, it’s the partition that separated the
> battery “shelf” from the storage area under the quarter berth. Right?
>
>
>
> I think I’d agree with others who have suggested the problem is likely to
> be battery fumes and not water penetration. Air circulation outboard of the
> batteries is probably problematic. All batteries outgas (yes, even AGMs) to
> some degree when charging. Some batteries outgas a lot when overcharged.
> And given the age of a LF38 you are probably looking at an artifact that
> dates from the era of lead acid batteries and ferro-resonant chargers that
> would frequently boil all the water out of a battery over the summer.
>
>
>
> The rotted panel seems to have three purposes:
>
> 1)  Keep engine heat, fumes, and noise out of the quarter berth
>
> 2)  Keep stuff in the storage area out of the engine space
>
> 3)  Support the base panel of the quarter berth
>
> Maybe the easiest and quickest thing to do would be to use a rotozip to
> cut out the rotted areas and then sister an appropriately shaped piece of
> 3/8” starboard to the locker side of the partition to satisfy 1, 2, and 3 ?
>
>
>
> Rick Brass
>
> Washington, NC
>
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Re: Stus-List Boat tools

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Ok maybe this is a silly question, but what can a right angle grinder do
that the Fein multitool cannot? In other words why is the Fein second to
the angle grinder, when it looks to me like the Fein is a superset of angle
grinder functionality?


On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 5:11 PM,  wrote:

> --
> *From:* CnC-List  on behalf of Dennis C.
> via CnC-List 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 8, 2015 2:54 PM
> *To:* CnClist
> *Cc:* Dennis C.
> *Subject:* Stus-List Boat tools
>
> Time for a discussion on our favorite boat tools  Aside from the usual
> collection of wrenches, screwdrivers, pliers and locking pliers, what do
> you find indispensable for boat work?
>
> Dave said:  "For cutting consider an oscillating tool like a Fein, with a
> circular bimetal blade.   (where has this thing been all my life???)
> This is the boat repair guy's friend, second only to the angle grinder"
>
> Yep, a vibrating saw is a valuable tool.  I have the Dremel MultiMax
> corded (the cordless ones don't have the oomph to get the job done).  Can't
> beat it for making plunge cuts and flush cuts.  Also use it with a flexible
> caulk removal blade for removing ports, hardware, etc. that is sealed with
> silicone, polyurethane, polysulfide, etc.
>
> However, my favorite all around go to tool is this:  <
> http://www.amazon.com/GearWrench-85035-35-MicroDriver-Set/dp/B0062FSAVI>
>
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Stus-List Rot in non-structural bulkhead - thoughts?

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

So I'm doing a lot of projects lately, and was majorly bummed out to find
the wall between the engine compartment and the lower foot of the port aft
quarterberth has some significant rot. Frustrated because lately it feels
like every project I fix, I find a new one. And this will be a big one.

Please see pictures here:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BxfHpwssU_6NNVBhbXpEZnhkUE0=sharing

As they say, pictures are worth a thousand words. It's a 2-3 foot section
of the port engine compartment wall, abutting the storage compartments
under the port quarterberth.

One thing I'm perplexed on is - how did this happen? There are no leaks
dripping onto this area as far as I can tell. The cockpit is above this and
it doesn't have any major penetrations on this side. And the top of the
bulkhead is solid. Normally when wood rots I expect it to start from the
top, where the leak is.

The only clue I have is this bulkhead had two cuts / gaps in the bottom
(probably to run wires through) and that's where the rot seems to have
spread out from. So maybe the moisture got in through the exposed grain at
the cut?  There is high humidity in the engine compartment due to
inevitable moisture in there. But also the rot is right behind the
batteries (house #1 + starter), which I find suspicious. Is it possible the
gel cells outgassing actually caused the damage somehow?

>From the pictures do you think this might be "dry rot"? (a particularly
evil kind of rot which apparently spreads by fungus even without an active
water leak anymore)

If it's spreading I want to cut out the bad portion of the bulkhead and
glass in new wood asap. If it's not spreading I can put it off, or even
ignore it since it's not structural. I could even just paint over it with
new waterproof marine paint?   If I have to cut it out, access will be
tough - it's in the engine space, I'll have to remove the batteries, some
wiring, and probably the exhaust lift riser, and the panel that covers the
aft quarterberth storage compartments.

The other thing is I can't even tell what kind of wood this was originally.
It doesn't seem as strong as marine plywood or the wood used in other
bulkheads. The bad wood seems sort of grey / bluish colored - I'm not sure
if that's from the flaked off white paint or what.

The other option is trying Git Rot injected into holes drilled into it.
http://www.boatlife.com/git-rot/

At this point mainly wondering if any of you have experience with this
issue, particularly in this area (non-structural, between engine
compartment and aft qtrberth storage compartments) or how something like
this can happen (rotting from the bottom up rather than top down)?

-Patrick
1984 C LF38
Seattle, WA
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