Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-11 Thread W.Kenworthy
Is there an 'official' designation of the target market for the GTA03?

i.e., freerunner is geeks/early adopters


BillK



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SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread ian douglas
Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
 when I went to get a sim card to use in my moko, I was
 unable to find one without getting a subsidized phone to go with it.

TMobile did this for me in about 15 minutes at one of their stores, and 
I didn't even have my Neo with me at the time. I simply told them I had 
an unlocked international GSM-capable phone and I just needed a SIM card 
for it.

I'm sure ATT would do the same if you simply walk into the store and 
tell them you want to purchase a SIM card for an unlocked phone you 
already own, and that you just want the SIM card.

-id

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Sander Hoentjen
On Tue, 2008-06-10 at 18:08 -0700, ian douglas wrote:
 Robert Taylor wrote:
 
  If you want to compare the total cost, compare the total cost of buying 
  the new iphone UNLOCKED at retail cost (you can't) plus the data package 
  and THEN we can talk.
 
 But the consumer isn't asked to pay the full unlocked price of the 
 iPhone. Just because ATT subsidizes the phone by lessening the profit 
 they make on the $100/month you'll pay them for using their service, the 
 consumer isn't paying more for the phone since they'd still have to 
 pay for the same voice/data service to use a Freerunner. It just means 
 ATT makes more profit on the voice/data plan because they haven't 
 subsidized anything.
 
 And you still haven't followed up with how you calculated the iPhone to 
 cost 'twice' as much as the Freerunner.
 
I took the following approach (I am in The Netherlands):
compare the price difference for a 24month contract with or without an
iPhone (16GB) (Yes this is not the new one, but i suspect it will not
differ too much).

Price for 24 mo with iPhone: 719,- eur
with HTC Touch Diamond (just for comparison): 541,-
without phone: 163,10 eur




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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Robert Taylor
ian douglas wrote:
 Robert Taylor wrote:
   I'm not dropping this. You still have it wrong.

 Hi Robert,

 I'm not trying to win the overall argument, I just want you to 
 acknowledge that my position is as valid as your own, as I do for your 
 position in point #2 below.

   
Ian, I acknowledge that your point is valid.

My apologies to you and everyone for making more of a stink out of this 
than necessary.

I get it, we can't win playing their game. 

According to someones post a while back, it will be at least a year  
before any of the hoops can be jumped through before the moko will start 
to be considered as part of some sort of subsidized package deal.

Although there is wiggle room, it seems that if we can't make the device 
stand out and we get locked into feature vs feature war that it is a 
loosing strategy.   The iphone deal is a pretty horrible deal, as is the 
blackberry device.  I can't understand how anyone buys things like 
that.  However RIM and Apple have managed to do a great job at 
differentiating their brand in the market place and getting their 
message out.

I wonder if we have anything that unique to offer.  Can the open world 
come up with an identity?  Or is our identity no identity?


Rob

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Our Identity (was: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread ian douglas
Robert Taylor wrote:
 if we can't make the device stand out ... it is a loosing strategy.

Yup, you've hit the nail on the head ... anyone comparing apples to 
apples in a side-by-side feature list is more likely to choose the 
iPhone. It looks slick, it's a nice form factor, and has features the 
Freerunner will not have like the camera and 3G. The Freerunner will 
have features like USB host mode and open-source software.

I think what's more likely to happen is that the Freerunner will 
primarily be picked up by the technology-advanced users around the 
world, who will then show off the phone to everyone around them, and 
word will spread gradually. I'm confident that the OpenMoko team know 
exactly what they're doing in terms of marketing, etc..

 I wonder if we have anything that unique to offer.  Can the open world 
 come up with an identity?

Our identity as a community is exactly that: openness. Use the phone how 
you want, update it when you want, change it when you want, upload apps 
when you want, write your own apps, nothing's hidden, you have complete 
access. You won't have anywhere close to that level of access on the 
iPhone without jailbreaking it and all of the risks included in that, 
and having to re-break the phone every time Apple upgrades the firmware, 
etc., plus being forced to *buy* applications from iTunes. Bleh.

As I've said above, that identity is more likely to appeal to the geeks 
of the world than Joe Six Pack. And I don't think OpenMoko is trying 
to sell millions of Freerunners like Apple/ATT are hoping to... we'll 
have a carefully-carved niche market of users, and it'll start with the 
curious users and expand from there over time. By the time the GTA03 or 
GTA04 come out with cameras and (hopefully) a slimmer form factor, etc., 
I think it'll be more of a phone/device that will appeal to a much wider 
audience.

My $0.02...

-id

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Re: No 3G for GTA03, 2G/EDGE only?

2008-06-11 Thread Andy Powell
On Wednesday 11 June 2008 00:17, Robert Taylor wrote:
 Andy Powell wrote:
  Do you live on planet earth or some magical fairy land where you snap
  your fingers and you get everything instantly?
 
  Mmm... I'm trying to work out if you just being an arse or you have a
  question in there. I'd like you to point out where I said anything about
  getting anything instantly, with a click of my fingers.

 I do want to once again appologize for this.  I hit submit before
 engaging brain.

 It's spillover from the frustration of people INSISTING on comparing
 subsidized vs unsubsidized phones.

 Sorry.

 Rob


Ok, I'll let it go then. Have you seen the price of the . ;)

-- 

Andy



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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-11 Thread The Rasterman
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:21:25 +0800 W.Kenworthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 Is there an 'official' designation of the target market for the GTA03?
 
 i.e., freerunner is geeks/early adopters

don't know. there is only right now what the state of gta03 currently is in
terms of what the hardware side is working on for drivers and devices etc. like
anything, it can be subject to change.

-- 
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Andy Powell
On Wednesday 11 June 2008 04:47, rakshat hooja wrote:
 
  I don't know where my NDA stands on this. (I dont have the signed copy
  back

 yet and I guess i wont be posting any more on this once I get it:-) I
 discussed with a carrier in India and they were as the first offer willing
 to offer unlimitid data on GPRS/Edge and free incomming for *one year* for
 about $70 (more than half their normal rate) if their connection is sold
 with the Freerunner.

Sounds like you got stuck with the crappy US model contract. AFAIK it's only 
the USA (and now India) where you pay to *receive* calls as well as make 
them. Perhaps we're 'lucky' in Europe where inbound calls cost the callee 
nothing..




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Andy / ScaredyCat



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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

2008-06-11 Thread Andy Powell
On Tuesday 10 June 2008 22:19, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen wrote:
 On 6/10/08, Ron K. Jeffries [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 [...]

  the two smart phones are aprox equal on
  -- wi-fi

 But with limited usability on iPhone

  -- accelerometer

 But with limited usability on iPhone

  -- bluetooth

 But with limited usability on iPhone

 E.g. you cannot use VoIP with iPhone, etc, etc

This last one is incorrect. 

http://www.icall.com/iphone/

There's a video demonstration.
-- 

Andy / ScaredyCat



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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread ian douglas
Sander Hoentjen wrote:
 compare the price difference for a 24month contract with or without an
 iPhone (16GB) (Yes this is not the new one, but i suspect it will not
 differ too much).
 
 Price for 24 mo with iPhone: 719,- eur
 with HTC Touch Diamond (just for comparison): 541,-
 without phone: 163,10 eur


According to Engadget [1], ATT will have a voice/data plan for the 
iPhone starting as low as $69.95/month, and a minimum of $84.95 for 
business customers.

The $69.95 price seem to be the same (at least in my Los Angeles-based 
zip coe) for a non-iPhone user selecting the minimum voice plan at 
$39.95 and the $30/month unlimited 'personal data' plan for PDA's and 
Smartphones. Data plan is $50 for unlimited data/SMS, and data plan is 
$60 for 5GB of data with tehering (using your smartphone as a modem).

Over the course of two years, you'd be paying the same $1679.04 plus 
taxes, fees, surcharges, etc. plus the cost of the phone at the $69.95 
price.

[1] 
http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2008/06/09/iphone-3g-from-atandt-unlimited-data-for-30/

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-11 Thread Dotan Cohen
2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 No, I haven't. Could you post a screenshot of how it looks? Maybe if I
 see it I can be convinced, I'm at least that open minded.

 can't as i did it years ago on my ipaq. but it's the same font as here:

 http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/Tech/x11fonts.html

 see the 4x8 font at the top. bdf downloadable and usable.


I guess it's not that bad. It's not bad enough to affect a purchasing
decision alone so long as I only have to see it in the terminal. If
the whole phone interface will be in that font, then I wouldn't buy
it.

I did not buy the otherwise wonderful Siemans M55 when it was new
because of its terrible font. But then again, I'm the kind of person
who has closed a bank account and switched banks because my current
bank was blocking Firefox access to online banking.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear - what market

2008-06-11 Thread Kalle Happonen
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:16:40 + Jorge . [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

   
 Robert Taylor wrote:
 
 On the new Iphones, you HAVETO get a 2 year contract.  
 If you decide to quit you will pay a fee that will total up greater than 
 the $600 the phone is worth.
   
 The first iPhone was released june 29/2007 and the first hacked that allow
 you to use it with any operator was announced on july 9/2007. It will happen
 again and unlocked iPhones 3G will be available, it does not matter if the
 first bunch are stolen, second hand or refurbished, it short time everyone
 will be able to buy an iPhone 3G without contract for almost the same price
 than it contract. Then we will be able to compare unsubsidized iphones with
 moko. until that moment lets end the flame :-) but if I am right the iPhone
 will be cheaper even unsubsidized. (although i would buy a moko anyway)
 

 not so simple. i think he business plan is changing because before this
 happened with the 1st iphone. people could buy without contract. it was 
 assumed
 that the phone lock would force people to get a contract anyway and apple bore
 the risk by losing out on their cut of the carrier's revenue (att). so they
 sold it at $399 or $499 etc. and din't get any money from att after that.

 now it changes with the 3g iphone. you must sign up when you buy. sure - you
 can now take that phone, unlock it, re-sell it, but you are stuck with a
 contract you must keep paying for... with no phone to use on that contract
 unless you buy another phone - outright. there will be contract termination
 clauses if you want to cancel then and this will help cover the subsidy - of
 not completely cover it and then some.
   
This is how I've understood it too, so this means there would be no 
cheap unlocked iPhones on the market in any significant volume. But 
the next thing to consider is what market/audience is the main target of 
OM. It seems some places (US) you'll end up to pay the same for the 
contract with or without a subsidised phone, which makes OM pricey 
compared to other options.

In many places in europe however you can get much cheaper contracts 
without an included phone. In Finland (which is a best case scenario, 
granted) for example, I would never touch a phone+subscription combo, 
partly thanks to a good legislation. So in many (most?) countries in 
europe OM + a contract could be significantly cheaper than iPhone.

I can't say about the asian market, but I think the imporant thing to 
consider where the most phones are expected to be sold. Another thing to 
consider is the target audience of GTA02. Are people who consider 
getting GTA02 also considering iPhone, or is it more of a geek/hacker 
(GTA02) - ooh look at me, I'm so trendy (iPhone) split, in which case 
the problem isn't a big deal to begin with.


 sure - some (a very few) phones will somehow be smuggled from the factory or
 from shipments before they get to an apple or att or other carrier store, and
 some may be sold under the counter without contract - but i guarantee that
 that likely is a business losing proposition for anyone as they get a rebate
 once they sign you on a contract. selling without a contract will mean hey 
 have
 to jack up the price to cover the lost rebate money.

 as such - legal, legitimate and easy to get 3g iphones WITHOUT contract are
 going to be much more than $199.

   
 furthermore the freedom, there is a war for the smartphones market and a
 freephone have to be competitive  in price, not only in quality and
 philosophy. 
 
 This is only true if you do what you are insisting on doing, comparing 
   
 things that are not of equal value. While it is fine for consumers to 
 be ignorant of these facts and actually think your argument is valid, 
 it's not correct on this thread as you are clearly educated and 
 understand the reality of the situation.
   
 not equal value? Moko, iPhone, iRiver, Blackberry... we are talking about
 smartphones, and money is money. If you buy an orange, and apple or a pinable
 you pay with money!! every fruit have advantages and disadvantages, but you
 pay anyway

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-11 Thread Dotan Cohen
2008/6/11 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 if the vocal group here are to be accounted for going to these screens would 
 be
 utterly bad and we should accept nothing less than vga so wvga (800x480) is 
 the
 only way up into the future.


So you argue to put a lesser screen on the device now, so that you can
have a lesser upgrade in the future? That is not the type of company
that I want to deal with. Give us what is possible now, now.

 ouch. poor cpu.


Other than price, what are the constraints about using a more powerful
CPU? And what is the price hit? If we are talking about having four
times the screen resolution for an additional 30% of the price of the
device, then I say that is worth it. The target market for this phone
will buy it almost regardless of price. That is not to say that price
is not important (it is) but it should be more flexible than the
hardware.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Sillyness: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Heikki Sørum
This discussion is silly. Seriously, it's silly. It's silly on so many
levels I probably can't sum up all the point's that make it silly.

Now that I got your attention; 
I apologize, I don't think you guys or anyone else are silly. ok? 
But bear with me as I try to explain why I think this is a silly
dicussion.

1. OM is a niche marked manufacturer.

First off all, does anyone here even remotely imagine that OM/FIC has
the marketing capacity or brand leverage as Apple? You know, Apple 
Corporation whose whole existence is dependent on good industrial design
and long-term brandname marketing? You know, the Apple corporation that
has survived 30 years of IBM and MS hostility by leveraging their
strengths?
I can't (at the moment) even imagine OM trying to target the
majority of Apple's consumerbase. It's corporate suicide.


2. OM is a startup company. (on the long term scale.)

The GTA01/02/03+ designs are still evolving and more importantly the
cellular/computing market hasn't even started to seriously grow. No
sane economist can today even guess when market saturation will occur.
Besides, today's PDA's / mobile are fairly primitive in capabilities
compared with the wealth of software and choice in the PC market.
(Including all Apple, OM, HTC, Nokia and SE PDA/mobiles.)
This means there is a lot of opportunities for startups to both
create new market's and to fail miserably. OM has been around for a
couple of years and has to stay in the game at least until it's
possible to forcast how the mobile computing market will evolve. 
This could take a decade, and personally I hope FIC  whoever
owns the majority of OM shares is willing to provide 10+ years of
capital before any significant return of investment occurs. 
But I doubt OM's shareholdes has (yet) the willingness to
invest the amount necessary to create a global distribution and
production capability to rival Nokia, SE or Apple on basically a
untried HW design, untried SW and a untried nieche market.
At least, it won't happend until after GTA03 or maybe even GTA04 has
become a success and /created/ a niche opensource crowd/fanboy
market.

3. Production cost's on HW dictate a Economics of Scale.

When comparing prices and claiming OM/Iphone is cheaper/more expensive
don't forget that regardless of now cool/cheap/nifty/open/closed the SW
is the overhead to start production of hardware is insanely high _and_
in addition there is a base cost for the physical components that won't
go away. As production in units ramp towards /millions/ of units the
overhead margin shrinks towards zero. But I doubt there will ever be
sold more than a couple of ten tousands of GTA02. I'm not even sure that
the GTA02's price and production will cover the costs pr unit for
OM/FIC.
I'm not claiming they are dumping prices, rather that the cost
of running OM,( engineering, marketing, accounting etc.) probably won't
be recuperated by selling GTA02 units. (Nor 03 or 04.. maybe during
GTA05)

4. How cellular phones are priced is dictated by how a regional market
has evolved.

The US _isn't_ the only market in the world, nor are the the market
conditions in the US even remotely comparable with other regional
markets. So maybe the Iphone is sold in the US locked to a ATT
plan, in a market where there you actually have to pay /exit-fees/,
and where monthly costs doesn't change regardless of where you bought
your phone. How many units sold in different markets isn't
dictated only by the sales price but rather on how the market has
evolved in different regions. 
Don't overextrapolate when trying to guestimate the cost of a
Iphone vs. GTA. Some regions has a lower barrier to entry, and personally I
won't be surprised if GTA02 end up being sold by the ten thousands in
Europe/Asia while the sales in the US will only reach
a few hundred units. (IMHO)

5. The GTA01/02/03+ designs are still evolving and the SW is barely
alpha quality.

Discussing Iphone vs gta interface and SW capabilities isn't
remotely interesting as it has next to no impact on sales.
Any current GTA SW is  iphone SW in terms of maturity and
capabilities if it was targeted at the same consumer base as the iphone.
Look at linux on desktops, Ubuntu and derivates has barely
started to nible at the edges of MS's entrenced market domination.
Expect another decade of steady improvement of linux desktop SW while
MS's does the I'm-a-dinosaur-and-meteorites-doesn't-exist dance before
market partity has been reached. This also applies to OM in a market
were Nokia and SE are the actually main opponents.

6. OM want to leverage the development cycle of opensource/free
software.

Of course OM is gambling on the fact that opensource/free
software has a insane rate of evolution when it hits the right sweet
spot among opensource developers/fans boys. But to hit this sweet
spot they will _have_ to do everything they can to appeal to such a
crowd rather than the regular consumer base. (Slightly 

Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

2008-06-11 Thread cedric cellier
-[ Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 06:02:34PM +0200, arne anka ]
  So, how does the Freerunner UI stand in front of the iPhone's ?
  What about the MobileMe initiative ? Do we have anything like that ?
 
  I checked both openmoko and maemo, and Im more and more afraid of how
  far we are (we = the FOSS people) from Apple and Google.
 
 why should we compete with apple in this respect?
 i never understood the hype for 3d desktop thingumabob (compiz/aigle or  
 whatever it is called now), animated icons or that stuff -- it usually  
 only eats cpu and memory w/o offering real benefits, it's just eye candy.

OK, I agree 100% here.
What strickes me with iPhone UI is not the eyecandy but the simplicity
and easiness.

Even the animations are not gratuitous waste of CPU : it helps the user
to understand what's happening. For instance, in the mobileMe video
presentation the user uploads a picture of a contact and then the
picture appears to flow right into the picture box of the contact detail
- this is not merely done to catch the eyes but also to help the user
understand the relations between widgets.

Im certain my wife/parents would master all the iPhone apps although
they can't use my maemo gadget which requires to be used to computers.



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Re: Font type and size was (QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03)

2008-06-11 Thread David Pottage

On Wed, June 11, 2008 2:59 am, Dale Schumacher wrote:
 If your current display is around 150dpi, you can see what QVGA would be
 like with something like this:

 xterm -fn '*-clean-*--6-*-c-40*' 

 This will give you a terminal window with a 4x6 font cell (3x5 for
 characters + 1px spacing).  Note that the automatic smear bold make this
 font unreadable, but the non-bold works.

 However, I would much prefer to use a larger font on a VGA-size display
 with 285dpi, like this:

 xterm -fn '*-clean-med*--16-*-c-80-*' -fb '*-clean-bold*--16-*-c-80-*' 

Thank you for that. You have added some useful light to the discussion on
graphics resolution compared with all the heat. It is a simple test that
anyone running Linux, or most other X servers (even cygwin) can run.

Having tried the test myself I would say the difference is like night and
day. At QVGA you can just about log into your box to reboot your web
server if you need to, but the whole experence is quite painfull. At full
VGA you can examine log files and the like and actualy figure out the root
cause of any problems and fix them.

This is the difference between windows sysadmins (reboot at the first sign
of trouble), and unix sysadmins who actually find and fix the root cause.

For myself I already have a QVGA Nokia phone with PuTTy, so I can log in
remotely in an emergency, but VGA is so nice that with a Freerunner I
probably would log in in other situations as well.

-- 
David Pottage

Error compiling committee.c To many arguments to function.


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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread rakshat hooja
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 12:51 PM, Andy Powell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Wednesday 11 June 2008 04:47, rakshat hooja wrote:
  
   I don't know where my NDA stands on this. (I dont have the signed copy
   back
 
  yet and I guess i wont be posting any more on this once I get it:-) I
  discussed with a carrier in India and they were as the first offer
 willing
  to offer unlimitid data on GPRS/Edge and free incomming for *one year*
 for
  about $70 (more than half their normal rate) if their connection is sold
  with the Freerunner.

 Sounds like you got stuck with the crappy US model contract. AFAIK it's
 only
 the USA (and now India) where you pay to *receive* calls as well as make
 them. Perhaps we're 'lucky' in Europe where inbound calls cost the callee
 nothing..


 Andy / ScaredyCat


No all incoming calls are free in India and most handsets are sold without
contract. This is a pay as you go (or prepaid) sim where they are willing to
offer India Rupees 250/per month (1 USD=43 Indian rupees) for unlimited data
and you can buy voice minuets as you like. what i meant by free incoming was
that the sim will remain active for one year even if you dont buy any
minuets at all and you can continue to receive free incoming calls for the
entire year.

The normal rate for unlimited data plan is between Indian Rupees Rs395-495 +
a basic rental of your contract (ranging between Rs 200 - 400 for normal
users). Outgoing calls cost are extra.

The Rs 250/month unlimited data was offered if we bundled their connection
with the
Freerunners we sold. At the moment we have no intentions of doing that as
most of the early buyers form us will be developers but may offer it (or a
better deal) as an *option *when mass market software is ready.

Rakshat
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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

2008-06-11 Thread cedric cellier
-[ Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 09:25:00AM -0700, Brian C ]
 Once one uses a Treo or similar linked to an Exchange server
 then one is spoiled by having email/contacts/calendar pushed to/from
 your phone automatically. People choosing the Freerunner shouldn't have
 to take a step backwards in this respect. 

Yes, there certainly should be a way to refrain your mail server from pushing
unimportant emails to your mobile device. This should be doable folder
by folder, which requires of course that the email classifications in
folder be done in the server. But this is another story.

Anyway, I wouldn't call a way to easily share content like mails,
contacts, calendar events, and even files, a step backward. At the
contrary, this is one of the biggest trouble for me with FOSS.
Think about what a pain it would be to install and maintain a
Kolab server (for instance) accessible from openmoko and some desktop
linux, with good performance and ease of use. Now look how simple
MobileMe is.

 Surely someone can start a
 push project for the Freerunner so that its native email/contacts/cal
 apps can interact with the most common mail servers and/or
 GNU/Linux-based desktop apps.

I am more and more seriously considering to donate time and money for
something like this.

 Second, there's been some discussion of Android on the Freerunner.
 Since Google is making increasingly clear that they will open source all
 the component parts of Android, what's the reason for not throwing
 Openmoko's full support behind that project too, and working together
 with them on a great  open UI/platform for mobile devices?

Because we don't want Apple nor Google to own the cloud above our heads?


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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-11 Thread The Rasterman
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 09:38:59 +0200 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  No, I haven't. Could you post a screenshot of how it looks? Maybe if I
  see it I can be convinced, I'm at least that open minded.
 
  can't as i did it years ago on my ipaq. but it's the same font as here:
 
  http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/Tech/x11fonts.html
 
  see the 4x8 font at the top. bdf downloadable and usable.
 
 
 I guess it's not that bad. It's not bad enough to affect a purchasing
 decision alone so long as I only have to see it in the terminal. If
 the whole phone interface will be in that font, then I wouldn't buy
 it.
 
 I did not buy the otherwise wonderful Siemans M55 when it was new
 because of its terrible font. But then again, I'm the kind of person
 who has closed a bank account and switched banks because my current
 bank was blocking Firefox access to online banking.

hahah! no - that'd be nasty used everywhere, but for a terminal, when you need
it, it's a good way to get 80x24 on qvga (landscape). of course its not
beautiful :)

-- 
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Peter Nijs
I pay my carrier €50 per year on avarage. And buying an OM will not increase 
that amount.

Peter

On Tuesday 10 June 2008 19:56:44 ian douglas write:
 Robert Taylor wrote:
  You pay through the nose for it because you HAVETO sign up for a 2 year
  contract minimum.

 Granted, the Apple and ATT partnership greatly subsidizes the cost,
 because of the $960 ($40/mo unlimited data plan for 2 yrs) to $2400
 ($100/mo unlimited voice/data for 2 yrs) that you'd spend with ATT also
 helps cover the hidden cost of the hardware.

 And while I personally don't care much for the iPhone, you also have to
 sign up for a voice/data plan to use the Freerunner... You're still
 paying the $960-$2400 over two years, but there's not offset of cost of
 the hardware to the consumer. The monthly fees you pay that doesn't pay
 for the actual use of the cell network is 100% profit to ATT instead of
 going to Apple to help pay for the hardware.

 Same with TMobile, and I imagine any other carrier who offsets the price
 of their phones to lock you into a contract.

 Just my $0.02.

 What you're paying the extra money for, for the Freerunner, is the
 freedom of doing whatever you want with your phone. Sure, the iPhone has
 their SDK released, but all applications still have to go through Apple
 to operate on your phone -- I don't know if the SDK even allows you to
 build an application just for your own iPhone to test it. Also, their
 mobile OS is closed source -- you have no access to hack or tweak it to
 do *exactly* what you want it to. You can't change the applications that
 come with the phone, you can't do a lot of things. Sure, they have lots
 of eye candy and some solid-looking applications, but once we as a
 community port applications to the Freerunner hardware to run on
 OpenMoko, we'll be leaps and bounds ahead of the iPhone software.

 That, to me, is worth the extra purchase price.

 -id

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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

2008-06-11 Thread Rahul Joshi
Sigh. First off let me begin by saying I'm not comparing iPhone with
FreeRunner (but cud have since they both are... um.. smart phones! its quite
OK saying - apples with apples)
To those hyper-exasperated-over-comparison ppl, raving mad about subsidies,
even a $600 penalty struck iPhone is STILL a good deal.
Fanboys will still buy it and Techies will still stick to OM. End of story.

Oh.. and one apple to oranges comparison does come to my mind: comparing
FreeRunner with EeePC connected to a triband GSM modem.

Over and Out.

Rahul J


On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Andy Powell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Tuesday 10 June 2008 22:19, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen wrote:
  On 6/10/08, Ron K. Jeffries [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  [...]
 
   the two smart phones are aprox equal on
   -- wi-fi
 
  But with limited usability on iPhone
 
   -- accelerometer
 
  But with limited usability on iPhone
 
   -- bluetooth
 
  But with limited usability on iPhone
 
  E.g. you cannot use VoIP with iPhone, etc, etc

 This last one is incorrect.

 http://www.icall.com/iphone/

 There's a video demonstration.
 --

 Andy / ScaredyCat


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Re: GTA03: New case? Bigger screen!

2008-06-11 Thread Tomi N/A
2008/6/10 Robert Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 Ortwin Regel wrote:
 There has been all this fruitless talk about resolution. Well, what is
 really limiting the Neo's screen right now is not resolution
 (obviously), not speed (at least not on the GTA01, no idea how messed
 up the 02 situation is. I'd guess it's faster most of the time.) but
 size! If the GTA03 get's a new case design, please consider making the
 screen twice as big! Then we are finally at a size were
 two-thumb-typing starts to make sense and even people with bad eye
 sight can benefit from the high resolution (although I'm not convinced
 that second point is a positive one... _). The device wouldn't even
 have to be bigger for this because so much space was wasted in the
 original Neo design. The only handheld I have owned where the screen
 could be called big enough was the Tapwave Zodiac (RIP). If you shave
 off the gaming controls and make it a little thicker, you get a very
 decent phone.
 Also, I suggest concentrating more on the horizontal usage. For
 example, bring the stereo speakers back but add one below and one
 above the display so that they are left and right in landscape. You
 can get a pretty good stereo effect at that distance.

 Ortwin

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 I second this post.

I third it.

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Re: Click Feedback?

2008-06-11 Thread Lorn Potter
Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:
 On Wednesday 11 June 2008 02:39:08 Lorn Potter wrote:
 Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:
 Ok, a first summary:

 *) I still like my tap sound.
 *) Almost all people do not want the tap sound.
 *) All people do care about getting event sounds while they're playing
 something (needs help from a sound daemon or touching every application)
 *) I was wrong about the real meaning of PA deprecating autounloading. I
 have discovered module-suspend-on-idle :)

 Conclusions:

 *) I will keep PA for the time being and activate module-suspend-on-idle
 *) You will be able to turn off the tap ;)

 Thanks for all comments!
 What about the CPU performance?
 
 Not measurable when it's idle.

How about when it's active? :)



-- 
Lorn 'ljp' Potter
Software Engineer, Systems Group, MES, Trolltech

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-11 Thread Dotan Cohen
2008/6/11 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  if the vocal group here are to be accounted for going to these screens
  would be utterly bad and we should accept nothing less than vga so wvga
  (800x480) is the only way up into the future.
 

 So you argue to put a lesser screen on the device now, so that you can
 have a lesser upgrade in the future? That is not the type of company
 that I want to deal with. Give us what is possible now, now.

 i didn't say that. you have to remember not everything is possible. we make
 compromises all the time. but you are saving that the only options we have for
 you to be happy is vga or higher. no matter what. even if we make a smaller
 phone?

No, I am not saying VGA or nothing. But you post looked to me like you
are worried about how to upgrade in the future, and that upgrading
would be easier for the manufacturer if the current hardware is less.
If that is not what you are saying, then you can disregard my
misunderstanding :)

  ouch. poor cpu.
 

 Other than price, what are the constraints about using a more powerful
 CPU? And what is the price hit? If we are talking about having four
 times the screen resolution for an additional 30% of the price of the
 device, then I say that is worth it. The target market for this phone
 will buy it almost regardless of price. That is not to say that price
 is not important (it is) but it should be more flexible than the
 hardware.

 right now - constraints vary from soc's we can actually buy in volume to being
 open (eg nvidia have an soc... do we want that along with the closed graphics
 system?), to just development time. a new soc means a whole lot of kernel work
 and driver work normally - unless we stick to the kernel provided by the
 vendor, and that means you have a kernel behind many versions. we want to 
 bring
 things to market as soon as we can. i'd love to see us improve our soc, but
 that just takes time and development. that's no promises one way or another or
 indications on whats going on - it's just where things are right now. :)


I see. Thanks. I appreciate that the development of these devices is
much more complicated than it looks from here. Which is why I ask.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Re: interface for people with very poor eyesight?

2008-06-11 Thread Christ van Willegen
I'd be interested in this subject as well, not for me but for someone
close to me. Especially if it could be switched on and off at a
gesture or something like that.

Christ van Willegen
-- 
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

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Re: Click Feedback?

2008-06-11 Thread Michael 'Mickey' Lauer
On Wednesday 11 June 2008 02:39:08 Lorn Potter wrote:
 Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:
  Ok, a first summary:
 
  *) I still like my tap sound.
  *) Almost all people do not want the tap sound.
  *) All people do care about getting event sounds while they're playing
  something (needs help from a sound daemon or touching every application)
  *) I was wrong about the real meaning of PA deprecating autounloading. I
  have discovered module-suspend-on-idle :)
 
  Conclusions:
 
  *) I will keep PA for the time being and activate module-suspend-on-idle
  *) You will be able to turn off the tap ;)
 
  Thanks for all comments!

 What about the CPU performance?

Not measurable when it's idle.

:M:

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Openmoko official resell partners

2008-06-11 Thread Harry Tsai

Dear Community,
You should already know Pulster and IDA, they are our official reseller 
in the Germany and India.
Today, I want to introduce new partners in Germany and UK,  you can buy 
freerunner from them for save your shipping cost and time.

We also have a formal press will release to public later.

Germany
Golden Delicious Computers- _http://www.goldelico.com  _Dr.Nikolaus Schaller

UK
TrueBox Technologies - http://www.TrueBox.co.uk  Mr. Rob wood

Besides, I am talking with CEO of Bearstech France about cooperation, so 
far they are very closely to become my next official partner.


BR

Harry
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-11 Thread The Rasterman
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 09:48:10 +0200 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 2008/6/11 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  if the vocal group here are to be accounted for going to these screens
  would be utterly bad and we should accept nothing less than vga so wvga
  (800x480) is the only way up into the future.
 
 
 So you argue to put a lesser screen on the device now, so that you can
 have a lesser upgrade in the future? That is not the type of company
 that I want to deal with. Give us what is possible now, now.

i didn't say that. you have to remember not everything is possible. we make
compromises all the time. but you are saving that the only options we have for
you to be happy is vga or higher. no matter what. even if we make a smaller
phone? some people want big phones, some want small. we might have multiple
products and you choose the one that is best for you. some may go for the
smaller device that weight less, uses less pocket space and has a low-res small
screen, some may go for one that is the size of an n800 with a massive high-res
screen. these phones are not necessarily a linear progression from 1st to 2nd
to 3rd version. some may be, some may not be.

  ouch. poor cpu.
 
 
 Other than price, what are the constraints about using a more powerful
 CPU? And what is the price hit? If we are talking about having four
 times the screen resolution for an additional 30% of the price of the
 device, then I say that is worth it. The target market for this phone
 will buy it almost regardless of price. That is not to say that price
 is not important (it is) but it should be more flexible than the
 hardware.

right now - constraints vary from soc's we can actually buy in volume to being
open (eg nvidia have an soc... do we want that along with the closed graphics
system?), to just development time. a new soc means a whole lot of kernel work
and driver work normally - unless we stick to the kernel provided by the
vendor, and that means you have a kernel behind many versions. we want to bring
things to market as soon as we can. i'd love to see us improve our soc, but
that just takes time and development. that's no promises one way or another or
indications on whats going on - it's just where things are right now. :)

-- 
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-11 Thread Jamie Allsop
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:

 even widescreen VGA, like the PSP?).

 Stroller.
 

 it will be better - of course. what' i'm baffled about is why all of a sudden
 here a lot of excellent vision gifted people turn up, whereas in real life i
 never see them... :)

   

Ok, time to clear up an obvious and totally incorrect assumption, higher 
resolution does not mean small fonts that are hard to read. It means 
that you have clearer, sharper fonts at the dpi you find comfortable 
reading at. In other words a VGA screen is just better, better for 
people with good eyesight and _much_ better for people with poor 
eyesight. I'd always go for a higher resolution every time.

Now some of you people out there may run windows on your desktop and 
only being able to reasonably change dpi between two settings (maybe 
this is different in Vista) means that a high resolution often does mean 
small fonts on the screen, some can't go to 120 dpi because maybe the 
apps they use don't support (yes that used to be quite common). On Linux 
this is not a problem as dpi is entirely variable and changing it 
doesn't break applications.  In that case the dpi is a simple personal 
preference and on higher res screens everything is sharper and easier to 
to read, reducing eye strain and so on.

For a small device where we will be trying to read things that are 
already small due to physical screen size a high res is a must to make 
that as comfortable as possible. VGA  will produce a much better user 
experience than QVGA and be a lot easier on everyone's eyes.

To summarise we have 3 orthogonal concerns:

1. Screen dimensions - fixed by manufacturer, relates to device target users
2. Screen resolution - fixed by manufacturer, higher is better for all 
tasks that require screen reading, for movies it really doesn't matter 
so much
3. DPI - user specified to reach a compromise between readability and 
effective use of screen real estate.

Any, that's my take on things, I vote VGA ;-)

Jamie



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Re: Openmoko official resell partners

2008-06-11 Thread Marcus Bauer
On Wed, 2008-06-11 at 17:43 +0800, Harry Tsai wrote:
 Dear Community,
 You should already know Pulster and IDA, they are our official
 reseller in the Germany and India.
 Today, I want to introduce new partners in Germany and UK,  you can
 buy freerunner from them for save your shipping cost and time.
 We also have a formal press will release to public later.
 
 Germany
 Golden Delicious Computers- http://www.goldelico.com  Dr.Nikolaus
 Schaller

Hey, the shop (not the website) is already openmokoed ;-)


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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

2008-06-11 Thread Andy Powell
On Tuesday 10 June 2008 17:02, arne anka wrote:
  So, how does the Freerunner UI stand in front of the iPhone's ?
  What about the MobileMe initiative ? Do we have anything like that ?
 
  I checked both openmoko and maemo, and Im more and more afraid of how
  far we are (we = the FOSS people) from Apple and Google.

 why should we compete with apple in this respect?
 i never understood the hype for 3d desktop thingumabob (compiz/aigle or
 whatever it is called now), animated icons or that stuff -- it usually
 only eats cpu and memory w/o offering real benefits, it's just eye candy.

I'm sorry but you're wrong. While it might eat a little cpu, it's not much. 
Most of the work is actually done by the graphics card, which is why I 
can 'spin my cube' on my 1.5ghz cellery laptop and see bugger all impact on 
the cpu. Many of the features of compiz are useful, the ability to group 
windows, make them double-sided, being able to view all your viewports at the 
same time and move windows between them... all these things allow you to 
manage your workspace better. In the office I use 2 screens, I  don;t have 
that for my laptop - but I get huge benefits from having compiz installed. 
It's not just eye candy at all - it's about productivity.

having said that once your windows wobble, it's hard to go back to rigid ones.


-- 

Andy / ScaredyCat



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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Jano
Andy Powell wrote:

 On Wednesday 11 June 2008 04:47, rakshat hooja wrote:
 
  I don't know where my NDA stands on this. (I dont have the signed copy
  back

 yet and I guess i wont be posting any more on this once I get it:-) I
 discussed with a carrier in India and they were as the first offer willing
 to offer unlimitid data on GPRS/Edge and free incomming for *one year* for
 about $70 (more than half their normal rate) if their connection is sold
 with the Freerunner.
 
 Sounds like you got stuck with the crappy US model contract. AFAIK it's only
 the USA (and now India) where you pay to *receive* calls as well as make
 them. Perhaps we're 'lucky' in Europe where inbound calls cost the callee
 nothing..

I just learned from an overseas friend about this pay for being called, and
it certainly feels outrageous to someone used to being called for free.

Alas, I guess it is a matter of time that this feature arrives over here...


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Re: Sillyness: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Michael Kluge
 7. Apple currently defines the PDA/mobile marketplace.

No, the smartphone market is dominated by the Blackberry.


Michael

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-11 Thread Hugo Mills
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 07:57:13AM +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
 the day the design mockups for the ui i see stop having alpha
 transparency is the day i make this unimportant. until that day,
 your i don't care about this is the kind of opinion that i also am
 not interested in, because i am being shown ui designs hat REQUIRE
 it in the long run between windows, and in the short term is being
 faked with software within windows. i am just trying to make
 something possible that is being requested, and has been for a long
 time.  not just say i don't care.

   So how do we go about persuading _those_ people that such
high-effort, low-return UI designs are a bad thing? Who should be in
this particular conversation, so that we don't put you in the position
of fending off people on both sides?

   (When I speak of low return, I mean low return in terms of
usability -- you don't make user interfaces more usable by adding more
transparency, more rounded corners, and drop shadows, particularly on
restricted-size interfaces.)

   Hugo.

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===
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Re: Openmoko official resell partners

2008-06-11 Thread W. B. Kranendonk
Great news, thanks for the update!


--- On Wed, 6/11/08, Harry Tsai [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 From: Harry Tsai [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Openmoko official resell partners
 To: List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org
 Date: Wednesday, June 11, 2008, 11:43 AM
 Dear Community,
 You should already know Pulster and IDA, they are our
 official reseller 
 in the Germany and India.
 Today, I want to introduce new partners in Germany and UK, 
 you can buy 
 freerunner from them for save your shipping cost and time.
 We also have a formal press will release to public later.
 
 Germany
 Golden Delicious Computers- _http://www.goldelico.com 
 _Dr.Nikolaus Schaller
 
 UK
 TrueBox Technologies - http://www.TrueBox.co.uk  Mr. Rob
 wood
 
 Besides, I am talking with CEO of Bearstech France about
 cooperation, so 
 far they are very closely to become my next official
 partner.
 
 BR
 
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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Andy Powell
On Wednesday 11 June 2008 09:51, rakshat hooja wrote:
 On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 12:51 PM, Andy Powell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Sounds like you got stuck with the crappy US model contract. AFAIK it's
  only
  the USA (and now India) where you pay to *receive* calls as well as make
  them. Perhaps we're 'lucky' in Europe where inbound calls cost the callee
  nothing..
 
 
  Andy / ScaredyCat

 No all incoming calls are free in India and most handsets are sold without
 contract. This is a pay as you go (or prepaid) sim where they are willing
 to offer India Rupees 250/per month (1 USD=43 Indian rupees) for unlimited
 data and you can buy voice minuets as you like. what i meant by free
 incoming was that the sim will remain active for one year even if you dont
 buy any minuets at all and you can continue to receive free incoming calls
 for the entire year.

 The normal rate for unlimited data plan is between Indian Rupees Rs395-495
 + a basic rental of your contract (ranging between Rs 200 - 400 for normal
 users). Outgoing calls cost are extra.

 The Rs 250/month unlimited data was offered if we bundled their connection
 with the
 Freerunners we sold. At the moment we have no intentions of doing that as
 most of the early buyers form us will be developers but may offer it (or a
 better deal) as an *option *when mass market software is ready.

 Rakshat

Ahhh ok, thanks for clearing that up. My mistake.

-- 

Andy / ScaredyCat



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Openmoko official resell partners

2008-06-11 Thread Yorick Matthys

Can we get an estimate when the phones will reach the official resellers?

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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

2008-06-11 Thread Andy Powell
On Wednesday 11 June 2008 10:12, Rahul Joshi wrote:
 Sigh. First off let me begin by saying I'm not comparing iPhone with
 FreeRunner (but cud have since they both are... um.. smart phones! its
 quite OK saying - apples with apples)
 To those hyper-exasperated-over-comparison ppl, raving mad about subsidies,
 even a $600 penalty struck iPhone is STILL a good deal.
 Fanboys will still buy it and Techies will still stick to OM. End of story.

 Oh.. and one apple to oranges comparison does come to my mind: comparing
 FreeRunner with EeePC connected to a triband GSM modem.

 Over and Out.

 Rahul J

Err, what's that got to do with anything I said?


-- 

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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

2008-06-11 Thread Rahul Joshi
Hehe... wrongly quoted. Forgiveness pls.

Rahul J


On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 4:47 PM, Andy Powell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



 Err, what's that got to do with anything I said?


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Re: Click Feedback?

2008-06-11 Thread Michael 'Mickey' Lauer
On Wednesday 11 June 2008 12:25:11 Lorn Potter wrote:
 Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:
  On Wednesday 11 June 2008 02:39:08 Lorn Potter wrote:
  Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:
  Ok, a first summary:
 
  *) I still like my tap sound.
  *) Almost all people do not want the tap sound.
  *) All people do care about getting event sounds while they're playing
  something (needs help from a sound daemon or touching every
  application) *) I was wrong about the real meaning of PA deprecating
  autounloading. I have discovered module-suspend-on-idle :)
 
  Conclusions:
 
  *) I will keep PA for the time being and activate
  module-suspend-on-idle *) You will be able to turn off the tap ;)
 
  Thanks for all comments!
 
  What about the CPU performance?
 
  Not measurable when it's idle.

 How about when it's active? :)

Then it claims about between 10% and 20% of CPU time, which seems a lot, but 
according to dmix measurements I did years ago, it's still less than dmix. 
Plus, with PA we get better latency.

:M:

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Re: GTA03: New case? Bigger screen!

2008-06-11 Thread Ilja O.
me wants it too
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Re: Free Runner price vs Meizu M8 price

2008-06-11 Thread Peter Nijs
U also have to know that running linux doesn't mean it's open. Some Telenet 
digiboxes (The onlything in Belgium that can receive the encrypted DBV-C) run 
Linux, but they are the most closed devices I've ever seen, and they also 
fail in what they are designed to do. I assume they where designed to receive 
DVB-C and not to empty peoples pockets, as how Telenet actually uses them. 
But that's another story.

 I don't know what the situation is with these iRivers and Meizus. A device 
doesn't get my attention by running Linux. It gets my attention by being 
open.

Peter

Op Wednesday 11 June 2008 00:58:01 schreef cdr:
 On Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 08:38:30PM +0200, Ortwin Regel wrote:
  There are cheaper contracts if you don't get a phone with them in
  Germany. No idea what the situation in the US is. (It's probably
  godawful... :-/) Personally, I use a prepaid SIM card so I pay no
  monthly fees at all. Much cheaper for me than any contract. So for me
  the price advantage over an iPhone is very real.

 although both vapor, iRiver and Meizu both have phones in the pipeline

 at least iRivers 'runs linux' as well.

 apple is nowhere near as cost competitive as either of them..

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Re: Sillyness: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Michael 'Mickey' Lauer
Thanks for this enlightening post!

I'd wish this thread could fade now... 

:M:

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AW: Openmoko official resell partners

2008-06-11 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Is trisoft.de not an official reseller? Which reseller will receive the 
first phones?

thx.

Ursprüngliche Nachricht
Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Datum: 11.06.2008 11:43
An: List for Openmoko community discussioncommunity@lists.openmoko.org
Betreff: Openmoko official resell partners

Dear Community,
You should already know Pulster and IDA, they are our official reseller 
in the Germany and India.
Today, I want to introduce new partners in Germany and UK,  you can buy 
freerunner from them for save your shipping cost and time.
We also have a formal press will release to public later.

Germany
Golden Delicious Computers- _http://www.goldelico.com  _Dr.Nikolaus Schaller

UK
TrueBox Technologies - http://www.TrueBox.co.uk  Mr. Rob wood

Besides, I am talking with CEO of Bearstech France about cooperation, so 
far they are very closely to become my next official partner.

BR

Harry
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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

2008-06-11 Thread cedric cellier
-[ Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 11:47:56AM +0100, Andy Powell ]
 I'm sorry but you're wrong. While it might eat a little cpu, it's not much. 
 Most of the work is actually done by the graphics card

Which is just another CPU which also need power. We are speacking
about embeded devices here.

== Off Topic ==

 [compiz]
 all these things allow you to manage your workspace better.

And better yet for productivity, at least for a developper : do not use
any workspace that require management. :-)



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Re: Openmoko official resell partners

2008-06-11 Thread Adilson Oliveira
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Marcus Bauer escreveu:

 Germany
 Golden Delicious Computers- http://www.goldelico.com  Dr.Nikolaus
 Schaller
 
 Hey, the shop (not the website) is already openmokoed ;-)

... and the name is, hmmm, bold :) (no offense, I really like it!)

[]s

Adilson.
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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Owoxq8ffEVK24DZZCWT0keU=
=kG1Y
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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Shawn
My question is this: 
say I buy a freerunner, but decide to switch to ATT as my provider (as I plan 
to do in the near future), will they not hit me with a contract agreement 
anyway? Isn't that how you get the cheapest minute/plans? If thats the case, 
then yeah, it looks like the iPhone is cheaper for my situation. If you already 
have a mobile plan and do not intend to switch, then the freerunner is the way 
to go. . .

just my 2 cents. 


- Original Message 
From: ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 4:21:39 PM
Subject: Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

Robert Taylor wrote:
 Please, compare equal things.
 Why are you posting nonsense here?

Rob, I'm not the one who posted the original article, and I take offense 
to you saying that my thoughts are 'nonsense' -- that sort of attitude 
isn't helpful to anybody.

In a previous post, you said:
 The iPhone is godawful expensive no matter how you slice it.

In another, you said:
 The iPhone is AT LEAST twice as expensive as the Moko.

We're not talking about what's subsidized and what's not. We're 
comparing how much money have I paid out of my pocket after two years 
to compare a 2-year contract requirement versus owning a Freerunner.

While I'm not trying to encourage any bitter feelings whatsoever, I'm 
curious how you calculated the iPhone costs twice as much as the 
Freerunner when you look at the bottom line of how many dollars you've 
spent after two years. Please elaborate on your calculations.

-id


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Re: Click Feedback?

2008-06-11 Thread Tilman Baumann
Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:

 Conclusions:
 
 *) I will keep PA for the time being and activate module-suspend-on-idle
 *) You will be able to turn off the tap ;)

Sounds great.

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Re: Openmoko official resell partners

2008-06-11 Thread Michael Kluge
Hi Harry,

no TRIsoft in Germany?


Michael

Am Mittwoch, 11. Juni 2008 11:43:59 schrieb Harry Tsai:
 Dear Community,
 You should already know Pulster and IDA, they are our official reseller
 in the Germany and India.
 Today, I want to introduce new partners in Germany and UK,  you can buy
 freerunner from them for save your shipping cost and time.
 We also have a formal press will release to public later.

 Germany
 Golden Delicious Computers- _http://www.goldelico.com  _Dr.Nikolaus
 Schaller

 UK
 TrueBox Technologies - http://www.TrueBox.co.uk  Mr. Rob wood

 Besides, I am talking with CEO of Bearstech France about cooperation, so
 far they are very closely to become my next official partner.

 BR

 Harry

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QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-11 Thread Ken Young
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 07:57:13AM +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
 the day the design mockups for the ui i see stop having alpha
 transparency is the day i make this unimportant. until that day,
 your i don't care about this is the kind of opinion that i also am
 not interested in, because i am being shown ui designs hat REQUIRE
 it in the long run between windows, and in the short term is being
 faked with software within windows. i am just trying to make
 something possible that is being requested, and has been for a long
 time.  not just say i don't care.

The problem isn't that transparency effects, and other CPU/GPU intensitve
UI enhancements, are unimportant.   On a handheld device they *are*
important.They make the device worse.It is important to resist
the push to add eye-candy to a handheld device, because every CPU/GPU
cycle spent animating an icon, or making a window translucent, eats
some of the energy stored in your battery, and reduces the amount of
useful work which can be done between recharges.

Ken Young


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Re: Sillyness: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Kalle Happonen
Michael Kluge wrote:
 7. Apple currently defines the PDA/mobile marketplace.
 

 No, the smartphone market is dominated by the Blackberry.
   
Dominate and define are different things. Blackberry might dominate 
(only in US though), but now Apple has the new cool thing, and every 
manufacturer from Samsung to Nokia make releases of similar models at 
the same time. So Apple does define the smartphone market for a given 
cusomer segment.

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Re: Sillyness: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Michele Renda
+1

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Re: Openmoko official resell partners

2008-06-11 Thread Edwin Lock
Hi,
TRIsoft is collaborating with Golden Delicious.. so if you have preordered
on the TRIsoft site there should be no problem at all.
Edwin Lock

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 2:44 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 Is trisoft.de not an official reseller? Which reseller will receive
 the first phones?

 thx.

 Ursprüngliche Nachricht
 Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Datum: 11.06.2008 11:43
 An: List for Openmoko community discussioncommunity@lists.openmoko.org
 Betreff: Openmoko official resell partners

 Dear Community,
 You should already know Pulster and IDA, they are our official reseller
 in the Germany and India.
 Today, I want to introduce new partners in Germany and UK,  you can buy
 freerunner from them for save your shipping cost and time.
 We also have a formal press will release to public later.

 Germany
 Golden Delicious Computers- _http://www.goldelico.com  _Dr.Nikolaus
 Schaller

 UK
 TrueBox Technologies - http://www.TrueBox.co.uk  Mr. Rob wood

 Besides, I am talking with CEO of Bearstech France about cooperation, so
 far they are very closely to become my next official partner.

 BR

 Harry
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Re: Openmoko official resell partners

2008-06-11 Thread Michael Kluge
Hi Harry,

no TRIsoft in Germany?


Michael

Am Mittwoch, 11. Juni 2008 11:43:59 schrieb Harry Tsai:
 Dear Community,
 You should already know Pulster and IDA, they are our official reseller
 in the Germany and India.
 Today, I want to introduce new partners in Germany and UK,  you can buy
 freerunner from them for save your shipping cost and time.
 We also have a formal press will release to public later.

 Germany
 Golden Delicious Computers- _http://www.goldelico.com  _Dr.Nikolaus
 Schaller

 UK
 TrueBox Technologies - http://www.TrueBox.co.uk  Mr. Rob wood

 Besides, I am talking with CEO of Bearstech France about cooperation, so
 far they are very closely to become my next official partner.

 BR

 Harry



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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread robert lazarski
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 9:55 AM, Shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 My question is this:
 say I buy a freerunner, but decide to switch to ATT as my provider (as I
 plan to do in the near future), will they not hit me with a contract
 agreement anyway? Isn't that how you get the cheapest minute/plans? If thats
 the case, then yeah, it looks like the iPhone is cheaper for my situation.
 If you already have a mobile plan and do not intend to switch, then the
 freerunner is the way to go. . .

 just my 2 cents.

Depends on the country and even more on personal preference. I
personally have never used a cell phone via a contract - I buy
pre-paid minutes, because I know what I'm spending that way. Plus the
contract terms are comparable to an EULA - scary stuff to this
individual.

In fact, in Brazil where I live its illegal to sell a blocked phone -
in no small part because those predatory telephone companies do
curious things on their bills and limit their services. I think
perhaps the USA is the odd ball in their locked way of doing
business, so ymmv.

I personally would find it ironic if I had an open source cell phone
but had to have a contract to use it - but that's just me. Would I be
paying extra on minutes? I only make about 10 minutes of calls a month
and a little more when I travel, but even if it made modest economic
sense, I prefer to pay more for my freedom. Sort of like paying more
for an unlocked openmoko rather than some comparable alternative - if
there's a choice, I'll pay more for freedom. Whether other people
would or wouldn't pay more for their freedom isn't an interesting
question to me - I simply don't care.

Robert

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-11 Thread Ortwin Regel
Who are these weird people that think window transparency on an
underpowered phone is a good idea?! What functionality does THAT give
us? I'd like to see some justification, if not from you then from
whoever is responsible for these ideas. I've lived without window
transparancy on all my PCs and handhelds up to now. I've seen it on my
brother's Vista PC and it was kind of funny for all of five minutes.

Ortwin

On 6/11/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 01:07:40 +0200 Joerg Reisenweber [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 babbled:

 Am Di  10. Juni 2008 schrieb Carsten Haitzler:
  On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 17:16:06 +0800 Wilkinson, Alex
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
 
   0n Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 01:43:08PM +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
  
   we are in a world where to get gfx support to run such high
 resolutions
   means we need to have closed drivers. and that is not
  
   Curious, why is that ?
 
  graphics is the most intensive thing your device is likely to do in
  terms of
  processing. if you want soft drop shadows, alpha blending (and trust me
  -
  everyone is drooling for it out there - the iphone is doing it already)
  the

 No, I won't trust you here! I give a SH*T on soft shadows, even on my
 desktop. I switch off animation because I think it's annoying waste of
 time
 to see the same movie over and over. Alpha blending? Eeew! Useless.

 the day the design mockups for the ui i see stop having alpha transparency
 is
 the day i make this unimportant. until that day, your i don't care about
 this
 is the kind of opinion that i also am not interested in, because i am being
 shown ui designs hat REQUIRE it in the long run between windows, and in the
 short term is being faked with software within windows. i am just trying to
 make something possible that is being requested, and has been for a long
 time.
 not just say i don't care.

 Every single argument been mentioned multiple times here. Redundance.
 GTA03 has VGA - period!

 things can change - unlikely to be, but can. i have said it many times
 already.

 04 even better i'd bet on it. 05 virtually no-one even thinking of now,
 not
 to mention sourceability of parts when it's coming to real.

 And now I'm definitely stopping to feed this tro.. er, thread, which btw
 seems nobody is looking on the weird subject any more :-/
 ETX
 jOERG



 --
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Re:SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread Joe Pfeiffer
ian douglas writes:
Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
 when I went to get a sim card to use in my moko, I was
 unable to find one without getting a subsidized phone to go with it.

TMobile did this for me in about 15 minutes at one of their stores, and 
I didn't even have my Neo with me at the time. I simply told them I had 
an unlocked international GSM-capable phone and I just needed a SIM card 
for it.

Did you get a lower price on your contract than you would have with a
phone?  Yes, they would have let me pay for a subsidized phone without
giving me the phone...

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Re: AW: Openmoko official resell partners

2008-06-11 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
Hi all,
to clarify some questions you may have:

1. we work closely together with Trisoft so you will get your  
Freerunner at approx. the same time (1-2 days) independently of where  
you place(d) your order
2. the direct link is 
http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner 
  (the server appears to be a little slow currently)
3. we currently do not take final orders but you can queue up by  
placing a Request, but you have not yet to pay
4. we accept major credit cards and IBAN bank transfer. If you have an  
EU VAT registration number we can deduce the German VAT if you provide  
correct details.
5. Requests will be processed on first come first served base as soon  
as we have devices to ship. We will send you a mail when to pay and  
complete the order.
6. we can ship worldwide, although that might not be reasonable for  
you (quite high shipment cost and we have only the GTA02 EU version)

Nikolaus Schaller (the one who fights to keep VGA!)


Golden Delicious Computers GmbHCo. KG
Buchenstr. 3
D-82041 Oberhaching
+49-89-54290367
http://www.goldelico.com

AG München, HRA 89571
VAT DE253626266
Komplementär:
Golden Delicious Computers Verwaltungs GmbH
Oberhaching, AG München, HRB 16602
Geschäftsführer: Dr. Nikolaus Schaller

Digital Tools for Independent People



Am 11.06.2008 um 14:44 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Is trisoft.de not an official reseller? Which reseller will  
 receive the first phones?

 thx.

 Ursprüngliche Nachricht
 Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Datum: 11.06.2008 11:43
 An: List for Openmoko community discussioncommunity@lists.openmoko.org 
 
 Betreff: Openmoko official resell partners

 Dear Community,
 You should already know Pulster and IDA, they are our official  
 reseller
 in the Germany and India.
 Today, I want to introduce new partners in Germany and UK,  you can  
 buy
 freerunner from them for save your shipping cost and time.
 We also have a formal press will release to public later.

 Germany
 Golden Delicious Computers- _http://www.goldelico.com  _Dr.Nikolaus  
 Schaller

 UK
 TrueBox Technologies - http://www.TrueBox.co.uk  Mr. Rob wood

 Besides, I am talking with CEO of Bearstech France about  
 cooperation, so
 far they are very closely to become my next official partner.

 BR

 Harry
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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

2008-06-11 Thread Andy Powell
On Wednesday 11 June 2008 13:24, cedric cellier wrote:
 -[ Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 11:47:56AM +0100, Andy Powell ]

  I'm sorry but you're wrong. While it might eat a little cpu, it's not
  much. Most of the work is actually done by the graphics card

 Which is just another CPU which also need power. We are speacking
 about embeded devices here.


No, you were saying compiz uses your cpu - we weren't talking about embedded 
devices at all at that stage.


  [compiz]
  all these things allow you to manage your workspace better.

 And better yet for productivity, at least for a developper : do not use
 any workspace that require management. :-)

Sorry, but that just doesn't make sense at all. If I'm doing web development 
I'll open multiple windows, a browser a couple of shells, if I'm doing c work 
I'll have a couple of shells, possibly glade running... these are all tools 
of the trade and compiz allows good clean management of those windows which 
can be spread over however many faces on your 'cube' you decide to have.

Maybe your laptop has a high res 24 screen where you can position each window 
in free space, mine doesn't.

-- 

Andy / ScaredyCat



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Re: Click Feedback?

2008-06-11 Thread Esben Stien
Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 If we were to get rid of it, we could ditch pulseaudio and go
 directly to alsa.

You know you should go JACK right?. Going directly to alsa for such a
real time application is just bad, very bad. 

-- 
Esben Stien is [EMAIL PROTECTED] s  a 
 http://www. s tn m
  irc://irc.  b  -  i  .   e/%23contact
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Re: Openmoko official resell partners

2008-06-11 Thread Harry Tsai

Michael,
TRIsoft will work with Golden Delicious Computers as partnership, I do 
believe you also can buy freerunner from TRIsoft webshop.
So, Openmoko with TRisoft is indirect cooperation, I know TRIsoft Mac 
and Robert very well, they also are good friends for me and openmoko.

BR

Harry


Michael Kluge ??:

Hi Harry,

no TRIsoft in Germany?


Michael

Am Mittwoch, 11. Juni 2008 11:43:59 schrieb Harry Tsai:
  

Dear Community,
You should already know Pulster and IDA, they are our official reseller
in the Germany and India.
Today, I want to introduce new partners in Germany and UK,  you can buy
freerunner from them for save your shipping cost and time.
We also have a formal press will release to public later.

Germany
Golden Delicious Computers- _http://www.goldelico.com  _Dr.Nikolaus
Schaller

UK
TrueBox Technologies - http://www.TrueBox.co.uk  Mr. Rob wood

Besides, I am talking with CEO of Bearstech France about cooperation, so
far they are very closely to become my next official partner.

BR

Harry



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Re: AW: Openmoko official resell partners

2008-06-11 Thread Harry Tsai
The speed is depends on courier and custom process, we will announce 
shipping date at right timing soon.

Harry

[EMAIL PROTECTED] 提到:
 Is trisoft.de not an official reseller? Which reseller will receive the 
 first phones?

 thx.

 Ursprüngliche Nachricht
 Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Datum: 11.06.2008 11:43
 An: List for Openmoko community discussioncommunity@lists.openmoko.org
 Betreff: Openmoko official resell partners

 Dear Community,
 You should already know Pulster and IDA, they are our official reseller 
 in the Germany and India.
 Today, I want to introduce new partners in Germany and UK,  you can buy 
 freerunner from them for save your shipping cost and time.
 We also have a formal press will release to public later.

 Germany
 Golden Delicious Computers- _http://www.goldelico.com  _Dr.Nikolaus Schaller

 UK
 TrueBox Technologies - http://www.TrueBox.co.uk  Mr. Rob wood

 Besides, I am talking with CEO of Bearstech France about cooperation, so 
 far they are very closely to become my next official partner.

 BR

 Harry
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-11 Thread Lally Singh
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 9:04 AM, Ken Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 07:57:13AM +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
 the day the design mockups for the ui i see stop having alpha
 transparency is the day i make this unimportant. until that day,
 your i don't care about this is the kind of opinion that i also am
 not interested in, because i am being shown ui designs hat REQUIRE
 it in the long run between windows, and in the short term is being
 faked with software within windows. i am just trying to make
 something possible that is being requested, and has been for a long
 time.  not just say i don't care.

 The problem isn't that transparency effects, and other CPU/GPU intensitve
 UI enhancements, are unimportant.   On a handheld device they *are*
 important.They make the device worse.It is important to resist
 the push to add eye-candy to a handheld device, because every CPU/GPU
 cycle spent animating an icon, or making a window translucent, eats
 some of the energy stored in your battery, and reduces the amount of
 useful work which can be done between recharges.

I disagree with such categorical statements.  There is a trade-off
between usability and performance (e.g. user performance and device
performance).  The optimal value is in between, dependent on both user
and system capabilities.  The iPhone is success *because* of its heavy
bias for user performance over system performance.  The hardware isn't
novel, but the UI is, and it makes all the difference.

Example: Shadows on windows on Mac OS X --- the shadows indicate,
better than any titlebar hilight ever will, what window has focus.
Using the brain's innate understanding of depth provides user-side
hardware acceleration for this activity.

Example: Desktop switcher animation --- when switching virtual
desktops, having the windows slide off to the appropriate side is
critical for building a spatial model in the user's mind.
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/finder.ars/2

Geeks will probably want a different set of trade-offs between
usability  performance, but those are best done as customizations on
an expert platform.  One that we hope that OM will become.

-- 
H. Lally Singh
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
Virginia Tech

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Re: AW: Openmoko official resell partners

2008-06-11 Thread Dr . H . Nikolaus Schaller
Hi all,
to clarify some questions you may have:

1. we work closely together with Trisoft so you will get your  
Freerunner at approx. the same time (1-2 days) independently of where  
you place(d) your order
2. the direct link is 
http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner 
  (the server appears to be a little slow currently)
3. we currently do not take final orders but you can queue up by  
placing a Request, but you have not yet to pay
4. we accept major credit cards and IBAN bank transfer. If you have an  
EU VAT registration number we can deduce the German VAT if you provide  
correct details.
5. Requests will be processed on first come first served base as soon  
as we have devices to ship. We will send you a mail when to pay and  
complete the order.
6. we can ship worldwide, although that might not be reasonable for  
you (quite high shipment cost and we have only the GTA02 EU version)

Nikolaus Schaller (the one who fights to keep VGA!)


Golden Delicious Computers GmbHCo. KG
Buchenstr. 3
D-82041 Oberhaching
+49-89-54290367
http://www.goldelico.com

AG München, HRA 89571
VAT DE253626266
Komplementär:
Golden Delicious Computers Verwaltungs GmbH
Oberhaching, AG München, HRB 16602
Geschäftsführer: Dr. Nikolaus Schaller

Digital Tools for Independent People



Am 11.06.2008 um 14:44 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Is trisoft.de not an official reseller? Which reseller will  
 receive the first phones?

 thx.

 Ursprüngliche Nachricht
 Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Datum: 11.06.2008 11:43
 An: List for Openmoko community discussioncommunity@lists.openmoko.org 
 
 Betreff: Openmoko official resell partners

 Dear Community,
 You should already know Pulster and IDA, they are our official  
 reseller
 in the Germany and India.
 Today, I want to introduce new partners in Germany and UK,  you can  
 buy
 freerunner from them for save your shipping cost and time.
 We also have a formal press will release to public later.

 Germany
 Golden Delicious Computers- _http://www.goldelico.com  _Dr.Nikolaus  
 Schaller

 UK
 TrueBox Technologies - http://www.TrueBox.co.uk  Mr. Rob wood

 Besides, I am talking with CEO of Bearstech France about  
 cooperation, so
 far they are very closely to become my next official partner.

 BR

 Harry
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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Ben Burdette
I plan on using my phone in VOIP mode as often as possible.  Since I use 
my phone most often at home, I'm hoping I'll be able to use far fewer 
minutes per month than normal.  That's when the pay-as-you-go SIM plan 
starts to really pay off - I don't have to pay for an artificial minimum 
of minutes that I won't use.  When I run out of minutes, I just buy 
more.  If I only talk on VOIP during the month, that's zero cost. 

Also, I hear that ATT is charging 10$ more per month for iphones over 
their normal plan fees, and even more if you are a business user.  So 
for a two year contract thats 240$.  And if you stay with ATT after 
that, you keep paying that same premium on into the future too.  If 
you're like me and you keep your smartphones for 4+ years, then that 
would be more like 480$ over the 199 initial outlay. 

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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread Vinc Duran
The local t-mobile store occasionally has a no extra charge (free I suppose)
quad band world phone from Motorola. I was thinking of getting that as a
spare.

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 8:44 AM, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 ian douglas writes:
 Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
  when I went to get a sim card to use in my moko, I was
  unable to find one without getting a subsidized phone to go with it.
 
 TMobile did this for me in about 15 minutes at one of their stores, and
 I didn't even have my Neo with me at the time. I simply told them I had
 an unlocked international GSM-capable phone and I just needed a SIM card
 for it.

 Did you get a lower price on your contract than you would have with a
 phone?  Yes, they would have let me pay for a subsidized phone without
 giving me the phone...

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Wireless providers in the US

2008-06-11 Thread paul
Could those of you in the US, who have the prior phone,and who plan to get
the new one, share what providers you are using?  Also, any details would
be great.  I am going to be leaving Sprint, and ditching my Treo 650 for
the new phone.  It is very exciting, but I am a little lost as to what all
my options are.  It is further complicated by the way in the US everyone
seems to offer regionally based plans, rather than having the same plans
available throughout the country.  I am in the D.C. area.

Thanks

P.S.  My intended uses are as a phone, as a modem or tethering device for
my laptop, as a web browser when I am on the road, for calendar and such,
for texting.  I am interested in GPS features as well.


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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Ortwin Regel
Your calculations may well be correct for the awful situation in the
USA. In other parts of the world, this is drastically different!
Please keep that in mind.

Ortwin

On 6/11/08, ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Robert Taylor wrote:
 Just compare equal things.

 We'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of equal.

 Hear me out:

 By my calculations below, a consumer buying an iPhone or a Freerunner,
 and using ATT for a voice/data plan, is going to spend about $2600 over
 two years no matter which phone they buy.

 Jorge's original posting in this thread said the following:
   the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will
   cost only $199 USD
 and
   now the FreeRunner is less competitive than the iPhone in terms
   of price.

 He was asking about straight out-of-pocket expense, not about subsidies.
 The end consumer is only going to see the price tag on the phone itself.

 The consumer will look at the iPhone and see a price of $199.
 Then they'll look at the Freerunner and see a price tag of $399.

 If they choose the $199 iPhone, they get locked into a two year
 contract, likely paying $100 per month for a voice/data plan. Over 24
 months, their total cost is going to be about $2600.

 If they choose the $399 Freerunner, they aren't locked into a minimum 2
 year contract, but they'll still need monthly service for the same
 24-month period. As I mentioned in a previous message, a plain
 voice/data plan with ATT is still going to cost $90 or more depending
 on the plan you pick. After 24 months, they've still paid $2600.

 That looks pretty 'equal' to me, and *I* believe the average consumer
 will feel the same way. If you don't agree with that, then you and I
 simply don't agree on it, but that still doesn't warrant calling
 someone's communication nonsense simply because you don't agree with them.

 The Freerunner would perhaps be cheaper if the consumer buys pay as you
 go minutes/data instead of a monthly plan.
 The Freerunner would *definitely* be cheaper if they buy the iPhone and
 start buying applications through iTunes for their phone.

 If you want to compare the total cost, compare the total cost of buying
 the new iphone UNLOCKED at retail cost (you can't) plus the data package
 and THEN we can talk.

 But the consumer isn't asked to pay the full unlocked price of the
 iPhone. Just because ATT subsidizes the phone by lessening the profit
 they make on the $100/month you'll pay them for using their service, the
 consumer isn't paying more for the phone since they'd still have to
 pay for the same voice/data service to use a Freerunner. It just means
 ATT makes more profit on the voice/data plan because they haven't
 subsidized anything.

 And you still haven't followed up with how you calculated the iPhone to
 cost 'twice' as much as the Freerunner.

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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread Lowell Higley
ATT in the US does offer SIMs without a phone.  However, you have to go
into a Corporate store.  The resellers generally won't or can't do this.  I
do not know, however, if they offer SIMs with contracts.  To my knowledge,
they only do this with pay as you go SIMs.

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 10:41 PM, ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
  when I went to get a sim card to use in my moko, I was
  unable to find one without getting a subsidized phone to go with it.

 TMobile did this for me in about 15 minutes at one of their stores, and
 I didn't even have my Neo with me at the time. I simply told them I had
 an unlocked international GSM-capable phone and I just needed a SIM card
 for it.

 I'm sure ATT would do the same if you simply walk into the store and
 tell them you want to purchase a SIM card for an unlocked phone you
 already own, and that you just want the SIM card.

 -id

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear

2008-06-11 Thread Bastian Muck
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
 
You are totally right.At T-Mobile Germany you can reserve an iPhone 3G. 
You can only get it with an contract thant is far more expensive than 
comparable contracts of T-Mobile Germany. The cheapest (24 month-) 
contract Complete S  is 5 € more expensive than a comparable one. With 
this contract the price for the iPhone 3G with 8GB is249€.

So, now let's calculate:
5€ /month * 24 = 120 €
120+249 = 369 € = 574$

And this is not completle correct, cause in germany nearly every phone 
is subsidized. For my new contract without phone you can get between 150 
€ (233$) and 400 € (622$) at resellers. For a small contract like the 
one I used at the top it is around 200 €.

so we are around 569€ (884 $). I think this is everything but cheap.

Of course be careful with this calculation. But for a tendence is can be 
used.
And yet a little hint: the 16GB one will cost 499€ (776$) with contract 
(even with the expensive ones which go up to 90€(140$)/month).

I don't want to calculate the price of the iPhone, i just want to 
explain, that it does NOT cost 299$.

Greetings Bastian


Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) schrieb:
| On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:16:40 + Jorge . [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
babbled:
|
| Robert Taylor wrote:
| On the new Iphones, you HAVETO get a 2 year contract.  
| If you decide to quit you will pay a fee that will total up greater than
| the $600 the phone is worth.
| The first iPhone was released june 29/2007 and the first hacked that 
allow
| you to use it with any operator was announced on july 9/2007. It will 
happen
| again and unlocked iPhones 3G will be available, it does not matter 
if the
| first bunch are stolen, second hand or refurbished, it short time 
everyone
| will be able to buy an iPhone 3G without contract for almost the same 
price
| than it contract. Then we will be able to compare unsubsidized 
iphones with
| moko. until that moment lets end the flame :-) but if I am right the 
iPhone
| will be cheaper even unsubsidized. (although i would buy a moko anyway)
|
| not so simple. i think he business plan is changing because before this
| happened with the 1st iphone. people could buy without contract. it 
was assumed
| that the phone lock would force people to get a contract anyway and 
apple bore
| the risk by losing out on their cut of the carrier's revenue (att). 
so they
| sold it at $399 or $499 etc. and din't get any money from att after that.
|
| now it changes with the 3g iphone. you must sign up when you buy. sure 
- you
| can now take that phone, unlock it, re-sell it, but you are stuck with a
| contract you must keep paying for... with no phone to use on that contract
| unless you buy another phone - outright. there will be contract 
termination
| clauses if you want to cancel then and this will help cover the 
subsidy - of
| not completely cover it and then some.
|
| sure - some (a very few) phones will somehow be smuggled from the 
factory or
| from shipments before they get to an apple or att or other carrier 
store, and
| some may be sold under the counter without contract - but i 
guarantee that
| that likely is a business losing proposition for anyone as they get a 
rebate
| once they sign you on a contract. selling without a contract will mean 
hey have
| to jack up the price to cover the lost rebate money.
|
| as such - legal, legitimate and easy to get 3g iphones WITHOUT 
contract are
| going to be much more than $199.
|
| furthermore the freedom, there is a war for the smartphones market 
and a
| freephone have to be competitive  in price, not only in quality and
| philosophy.
| This is only true if you do what you are insisting on doing, comparing
| things that are not of equal value. While it is fine for consumers to
| be ignorant of these facts and actually think your argument is valid,
| it's not correct on this thread as you are clearly educated and
| understand the reality of the situation.
|
| not equal value? Moko, iPhone, iRiver, Blackberry... we are talking about
| smartphones, and money is money. If you buy an orange, and apple or a 
pinable
| you pay with money!! every fruit have advantages and disadvantages, 
but you
| pay anyway
|
| _
| Do more with your photos with Windows Live Photo Gallery.
| http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_photos_022008
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|

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Re: AW: Openmoko official resell partners

2008-06-11 Thread Adilson Oliveira
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Dr.H.Nikolaus Schaller escreveu:

 6. we can ship worldwide, although that might not be reasonable for  
 you (quite high shipment cost and we have only the GTA02 EU version)
 

I wasn't aware that there are different versions depending on your
location. Is the difference just the GSM frequency (850 vs 900MHz)?

[]s

Adilson.
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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread Stroller

On 11 Jun 2008, at 15:44, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

 ian douglas writes:
 Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
 when I went to get a sim card to use in my moko, I was
 unable to find one without getting a subsidized phone to go with it.

 TMobile did this for me in about 15 minutes at one of their  
 stores, and
 I didn't even have my Neo with me at the time. I simply told them  
 I had
 an unlocked international GSM-capable phone and I just needed a  
 SIM card
 for it.

 Did you get a lower price on your contract than you would have with a
 phone?  Yes, they would have let me pay for a subsidized phone without
 giving me the phone...

Where the heck are you?

To the British it is quite *obvious* that a contract without a phone  
is cheaper.

The most obvious example of this is that one can choose how much to  
pay up front - on can choose the phone for free with one set of  
tariffs, or pay £75 on purchase and get the same number of minutes  
for £10 a month less (on an 18-month contract, for example). One can  
also get much cheaper contracts when no phone purchase is involved.

Stroller.
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Re: Sillyness: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Michael Kluge
Kalle Happonen wrote:
 Michael Kluge wrote:
   
 7. Apple currently defines the PDA/mobile marketplace.
 
   
 No, the smartphone market is dominated by the Blackberry.
   
 
 Dominate and define are different things. Blackberry might dominate 
 (only in US though), but now Apple has the new cool thing, and every 
 manufacturer from Samsung to Nokia make releases of similar models at 
 the same time. So Apple does define the smartphone market for a given 
 cusomer segment.
   
Yes, I was talking about the *I use it for my business* market in the 
US. Correct.


Michael

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Stroller

On 11 Jun 2008, at 13:55, Shawn wrote:

 My question is this:
 say I buy a freerunner, but decide to switch to ATT as my provider  
 (as I plan to do in the near future), will they not hit me with a  
 contract agreement anyway? Isn't that how you get the cheapest  
 minute/plans?

They may do it differently in the US (woah! Europe's market  
regulation might be good for the consumer!?!?!) but here in the UK  
the contract agreement is cheaper if you bring your own phone.

Sure, a contract gets you the cheapest minute/plans (as long as you  
use them), but there's cheapest and cheapest.

Here in the UK millions of people have old mobile phones they've  
already paid for, or on which the contract has already expired. Sure,  
they may go with O2 or Vodafone for their next contract because they  
get a free iPhone, but those existing unlocked phones don't get  
chucked in the landfill. So I go to Vodafone and say I've got this  
old phone that my brother's throwing away, and I'd like a contract  
please; if Vodafone only offer me a contract which includes a  
replacement phone then that new phone has to be paid for somehow in  
the terms of the contract; if I go to O2 instead and they say ok,  
you don't want a new phone then obviously they can make the contract  
cheaper.

I am staggered this seems to be so difficult, and I'm not sure  
whether it's that the carriers make it so difficult in some parts of  
the world, or simply that the concept is so difficult to some people.

Stroller.

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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

2008-06-11 Thread Stroller

On 11 Jun 2008, at 09:34, cedric cellier wrote:
 ...
 Anyway, I wouldn't call a way to easily share content like mails,
 contacts, calendar events, and even files, a step backward. At the
 contrary, this is one of the biggest trouble for me with FOSS.
 Think about what a pain it would be to install and maintain a
 Kolab server (for instance) accessible from openmoko and some desktop
 linux, with good performance and ease of use. Now look how simple
 MobileMe is.

It would (surely?) be equally simply to rent an account on a shared  
Kolab server, but this is the difference between the iPone  Linux  
markets. Mac users have for years been paying for the (dreadful) dot- 
Mac service and think nothing of it, whereas a geek will not see the  
need to spend money on something he can install on his existing file- 
server.

Stroller.

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Re: GTA03: New case? Bigger screen!

2008-06-11 Thread Peter Kraker

I want a phone, not a tablet. -1.

Ilja O. pravi:

me wants it too


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Dual SIM?

2008-06-11 Thread Adilson Oliveira
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi.

I'm quite sure the answer is no but as I didn't find any definitive
answer for that I decided to ask: does the openmoko hardware support 2
SIM cards?

[]s

Adilson.
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Re: Dual SIM?

2008-06-11 Thread Federico Lorenzi
no

Not directly at least, it should be possible however to connect
another phone that has bluetooth up to it, and allow it to act in
nearly the same way.

HTH,
Federico

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Adilson Oliveira
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Hi.

 I'm quite sure the answer is no but as I didn't find any definitive
 answer for that I decided to ask: does the openmoko hardware support 2
 SIM cards?

 []s

 Adilson.
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Re: Wireless providers in the US

2008-06-11 Thread Kevin Dean
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 1:03 PM,  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Could those of you in the US, who have the prior phone,and who plan to get
 the new one, share what providers you are using?

T-Mobile. Been with them 5 or 6 years and zero complaints.

 Also, any details would
 be great.  I am going to be leaving Sprint, and ditching my Treo 650 for
 the new phone.

Dropped Motorola RAZRs for a Neo 1973 and Neo Freerunner.

  It is very exciting, but I am a little lost as to what all
 my options are.

I'm assuming for a moment you're planning on purchasing an Openmoko
phone since that's what this list is about. Any cellular carrier that
uses GSM works with the Freerunner and 1973. This pretty much means
anything BUT Sprint or Verizon (and Verizon will be transitioning to
GSM in 2009 in the metro DC area, from what I've heard). Assuming the
mobile companies don't restrict phones they're not familiar with,
every contract plan or prepaid plan should work.

 It is further complicated by the way in the US everyone
 seems to offer regionally based plans, rather than having the same plans
 available throughout the country.

I have to say I disagree unless you're interested only in a small,
local based provider which Sprint is NOT. T-Mobile and ATT both offer
nationwide plans and the plans are the same coast to coast.

  I am in the D.C. area.

A friend of mine lives in northwest and T-Mobile doesn't work well for
her (though Verizon is starting to fail in her building too). I get
excellent service in Frederick, Alexandria, Gaithersburg, Reston,
Herndon, Sterling. Come to think of it... Other than being in like the
Baltimore tunnel, I don't think I've ever NOT had service and I drove
out to Jersey a few months ago to buy my car.


 Thanks

 P.S.  My intended uses are as a phone, as a modem or tethering device for
 my laptop,

I support Openmoko but let me give my realistic opinion - the decision
to use 2G and include wifi isn't the best for Americans in metro
areas. From what I gather, data over cellular is still pretty
expensive in Europe so the inclusion of Wifi benefits the most people
there. In the USA where unlimited data plans are quite affordable,
where people commute signifigantly longer distances and cellular
coverage is more reliable and more readily available than wifi
coverage lack of 3G sucks really REALLY badly.

If you're tethering for cellular data connection, a Freerunner will
disappoint you. The fact that there's not a cellular connection fast
enough to support streaming audio on my daily commute is serious
enough that I questioned if I'd pay money for a Freerunner.

 as a web browser when I am on the road, for calendar and such,
 for texting.  I am interested in GPS features as well.

A Freerunner would work well for all of those, and with the GPS being
tacked on, I'm not sure I can think of many devices that would combine
all of those features.



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Re: Dual SIM?

2008-06-11 Thread Ilja O.
No
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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread ian douglas
Shawn wrote:
 say I buy a freerunner, but decide to switch to ATT as my provider (as 
 I plan to do in the near future), will they not hit me with a contract 
 agreement anyway?

It varies, depending on who you talk to.

They typically need to lock you into a 2-year contract if they're 
subsidizing a phone.

Since the Freerunner isn't subsidized by them, they should give you the 
same rate, but not lock you into a two-year agreement.

-id

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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread ian douglas
Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
 ian douglas writes:
 TMobile did this for me in about 15 minutes at one of their stores, and 
 I didn't even have my Neo with me at the time. I simply told them I had 
 an unlocked international GSM-capable phone and I just needed a SIM card 
 for it.
 
 Did you get a lower price on your contract than you would have with a
 phone?  Yes, they would have let me pay for a subsidized phone without
 giving me the phone...

It was a pay-as-you-go SIM card, no contract required. Minutes are good 
for a year 9though I used up almost the entire block of 1,000 minutes 
doing talk time tests last month on the Freerunner.

-id

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Re: Wireless providers in the US

2008-06-11 Thread ian douglas
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Could those of you in the US, who have the prior phone,and who plan to get
 the new one, share what providers you are using?

I had a Neo (GTA01) and it worked fine on TMobile and ATT, but only in 
areas where the higher frequency bands were available -- I couldn't get 
either SIM to work where only the 850MHz band was getting through, 
obviously, because the Neo didn't do 850MHz.

ATT and TMobile also work just fine on the Freerunner -- I have the 
850Mhz-capable model.

-id


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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread ian douglas
Ben Burdette wrote:
 Also, I hear that ATT is charging 10$ more per month for iphones over 
 their normal plan fees, and even more if you are a business user.

They raised the rate in general, even without picking a phone at 
attwireless.com, you can still see the basic unlimited data with 
limited SMS option is $30/month.

And yeah, they're charging business users $45/month for the same 
unlimited data plan, because it will include sync'ing to MS Exchange 
(like the Blackberry PDA's do), and the 50% premium is simply due to the 
fact that the 'push' technology will use more bandwidth.

-id


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Re: Wireless providers in the US

2008-06-11 Thread Brandon Kruse
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
| Could those of you in the US, who have the prior phone,and who plan to get
| the new one, share what providers you are using?  Also, any details would
| be great.  I am going to be leaving Sprint, and ditching my Treo 650 for
| the new phone.  It is very exciting, but I am a little lost as to what all
| my options are.  It is further complicated by the way in the US everyone
| seems to offer regionally based plans, rather than having the same plans
| available throughout the country.  I am in the D.C. area.
|
| Thanks
|
| P.S.  My intended uses are as a phone, as a modem or tethering device for
| my laptop, as a web browser when I am on the road, for calendar and such,
| for texting.  I am interested in GPS features as well.
|
|
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| community@lists.openmoko.org
| http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_compatible_cellphone_providers#United_States

I use tMobile, and it works great. The service is OK, but the people
are great, one of the cheapest in the US.

- -bk
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Re: Wireless providers in the US

2008-06-11 Thread ian douglas
Kevin Dean wrote:
 T-Mobile and ATT both offer
 nationwide plans and the plans are the same coast to coast.

... but not at ATT plans are available coast-to-coast.

I was looking at plans last night for someone on the list who lives in 
New Mexico, and there were fewer voice/data plans available than there 
were in the Los Angeles area.

 as a web browser when I am on the road, for calendar and such,
 for texting.  I am interested in GPS features as well.
 
 A Freerunner would work well for all of those, and with the GPS being
 tacked on, I'm not sure I can think of many devices that would combine
 all of those features.

My Samsung Blackjack 2 has been doing all this since December 2007. Of 
course, I sync everything through plaxo.com as the Blackjack 2 doesn't 
have MS-Exchange sync'ing capabilities built in. (It'll sync Email 
through ATT's XpressMail service though)

I'll much prefer the Freerunner over my Samsung once the software is 
solid, as having a true-multitasking environment will be a giant leap 
forward for how I stay connected.

-id

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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread Joe Pfeiffer
Stroller writes:

On 11 Jun 2008, at 15:44, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

 Did you get a lower price on your contract than you would have with a
 phone?  Yes, they would have let me pay for a subsidized phone without
 giving me the phone...

Where the heck are you?

To the British it is quite *obvious* that a contract without a phone  
is cheaper.

US.  To me, it's quite obvious that a contract without a phone
*should* be cheaper, but that's a long way from is (it actually
worked out for the best, since I've had a working phne all these
months as a result).

The most obvious example of this is that one can choose how much to  
pay up front - on can choose the phone for free with one set of  
tariffs, or pay £75 on purchase and get the same number of minutes  
for £10 a month less (on an 18-month contract, for example). One can  
also get much cheaper contracts when no phone purchase is involved.

I haven't seen anything like that here.  The plan costs what it costs;
you can pay varying amounts up front for different phones.

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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

2008-06-11 Thread arne anka
 Even the animations are not gratuitous waste of CPU : it helps the user
 to understand what's happening. For instance, in the mobileMe video
 presentation the user uploads a picture of a contact and then the
 picture appears to flow right into the picture box of the contact detail
 - this is not merely done to catch the eyes but also to help the user
 understand the relations between widgets.

point taken.

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Re: Font type and size was (QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03)

2008-06-11 Thread David Samblas Martinez
Thanks Dale, as David says it's this simply test makes the things very clear, 
whit bold there's is no way but as I said before this font on the freerunner 
can be used to previews, icons and a way to have various text files opens at 
time and intuit of what's about and then to work use the second one. 


--- El mié, 11/6/08, David Pottage [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:

 De: David Pottage [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Asunto: Re: Font type and size was (QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03)
 Para: List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org
 Fecha: miércoles, 11 junio, 2008 10:18
 On Wed, June 11, 2008 2:59 am, Dale Schumacher wrote:
  If your current display is around 150dpi, you can see
 what QVGA would be
  like with something like this:
 
  xterm -fn '*-clean-*--6-*-c-40*' 
 
  This will give you a terminal window with a 4x6 font
 cell (3x5 for
  characters + 1px spacing).  Note that the automatic
 smear bold make this
  font unreadable, but the non-bold works.
 
  However, I would much prefer to use a larger font on a
 VGA-size display
  with 285dpi, like this:
 
  xterm -fn '*-clean-med*--16-*-c-80-*' -fb
 '*-clean-bold*--16-*-c-80-*' 
 
 Thank you for that. You have added some useful light to the
 discussion on
 graphics resolution compared with all the heat. It is a
 simple test that
 anyone running Linux, or most other X servers (even cygwin)
 can run.
 
 Having tried the test myself I would say the difference is
 like night and
 day. At QVGA you can just about log into your box to reboot
 your web
 server if you need to, but the whole experence is quite
 painfull. At full
 VGA you can examine log files and the like and actualy
 figure out the root
 cause of any problems and fix them.
 
 This is the difference between windows sysadmins (reboot at
 the first sign
 of trouble), and unix sysadmins who actually find and fix
 the root cause.
 
 For myself I already have a QVGA Nokia phone with PuTTy, so
 I can log in
 remotely in an emergency, but VGA is so nice that with a
 Freerunner I
 probably would log in in other situations as well.
 
 -- 
 David Pottage
 
 Error compiling committee.c To many arguments to function.
 
 
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  __ 
Enviado desde Correo Yahoo! La bandeja de entrada más inteligente.

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Re: AW: Openmoko official resell partners

2008-06-11 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller

Am 11.06.2008 um 19:48 schrieb Adilson Oliveira:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Dr.H.Nikolaus Schaller escreveu:

 6. we can ship worldwide, although that might not be reasonable for
 you (quite high shipment cost and we have only the GTA02 EU version)


 I wasn't aware that there are different versions depending on your
 location. Is the difference just the GSM frequency (850 vs 900MHz)?

There are two different versions:

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_GTA02_Hardware
(go to the bootom line Certification).

850/1800/1900 Band
900/1800/1900 Band

Both operate worldwide but each one is more flexible in its main  
location since networks
service only two out of the four frequencies.

We have choosen to have only the EU version in our shop.

BR,
Nikolaus

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Re:Dual SIM?

2008-06-11 Thread Joe Pfeiffer
Adilson Oliveira writes:

I'm quite sure the answer is no but as I didn't find any definitive
answer for that I decided to ask: does the openmoko hardware support 2
SIM cards?

Not at the same time.  Only one holder.

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Re: Wireless providers in the US

2008-06-11 Thread ian douglas
ian douglas wrote:
 ... but not at ATT plans are available coast-to-coast.

at = all

Lack of sleep = typos. My bad.

-id

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GTA03 camera + any chance to add SD card?

2008-06-11 Thread Ron K. Jeffries
I hope the camera on GTA03 will be ~3 megapixels
and have a decent (glass) lens. I don't know
what the COGS impact of the better camera will be
but Freerunner is NOT a bargain basement phone.

If the better specs on camera add $50 vs say $10
for a 1.3 megapixel with plastic POS lens, I for
one am all in.

FYI I use the (inadequate!) phone on my Treo 700p
fairly often. I have other, better cameras, but my mobile
phone is always in my pocket.

new topic:
Given the evolution not revolution goal for GTA03...

Is adding an SD card externally accessible on GTA03 feasible?
Lots of goodness associated with adding SD card slot.
but it may be too much effort and risk for this refresh product cycle.

I understand that GTA03 really needs to be a quick
turn, so the team can then invest in a new Freerunner product
with a serious bump in computing power (for openers).

I am NOT in the camp that predicts a 12 month cycle
to get GTA03 out, as that would be a plan to fail.

Give the experience learned with GAT01/GTA02
I predict OpenMoko can ship GTA03 no later than
Christmas,  2008

Ron K. Jeffries
http://www.retaggr.com/Card/RonKJeffries
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Re: GTA03 camera + any chance to add SD card?

2008-06-11 Thread ian douglas
Ron K. Jeffries wrote:
 Is adding an SD card externally accessible on GTA03 feasible?

+1

Having the SD card buried under the SIM under the battery is less than 
ideal.

-if


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Re: Dual SIM?

2008-06-11 Thread Adilson Oliveira
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Joerg Reisenweber escreveu:

 
 No. ;-) 

I thought so :)

 
 It's a pity, but the GSM-module won't support that - none will. And anything 
 less than true *concurrent* usage - like electrical swappers where you can 
 select which SIM to boot to, is just crap not worth designing for. Well we 
 could implement two modules XD .
 Obvious case of it's not that free as we would like it. Otherwise we could 
 have hacked the GSM-firmware. Can't be that hard, simple periodic context 
 switching.

So, cells like the samsung d880 just swap electrically between the 2 SIM
cards? The spec say you can use both cards at the same time but don't
say exactly what same time means.

[]s

Adilson.
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Re: Dual SIM?

2008-06-11 Thread Kevin Dean
The Freerunner has a single SIM slot.

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 2:14 PM, Adilson Oliveira
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Hi.

 I'm quite sure the answer is no but as I didn't find any definitive
 answer for that I decided to ask: does the openmoko hardware support 2
 SIM cards?

 []s

 Adilson.
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Re: Openmoko official resell partners

2008-06-11 Thread Kyle Gordon
Harry Tsai wrote:

 UK
 TrueBox Technologies - http://www.TrueBox.co.uk  Mr. Rob wood
£272 delivered to anywhere in the UK...

http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015080.html 
says it's $399, from the US presumably. At the current exchange rate 
that's £203... I think I can get it shipped across from the US for less 
than £70

Kyle

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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread Kevin Dean
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 3:33 PM, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Stroller writes:

On 11 Jun 2008, at 15:44, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

 Did you get a lower price on your contract than you would have with a
 phone?  Yes, they would have let me pay for a subsidized phone without
 giving me the phone...

Where the heck are you?

To the British it is quite *obvious* that a contract without a phone
is cheaper.

 US.  To me, it's quite obvious that a contract without a phone
 *should* be cheaper, but that's a long way from is (it actually
 worked out for the best, since I've had a working phne all these
 months as a result).

I'm an American and your statement confuses me. Why is it obvious
that a contract without a phone should be cheaper? The service
(cellular connectivity for voice and/or data) is the same service no
matter what phone you have.

In the US, the price of service contracts doesn't change. The price of
PHONES does when you agree to commit to a service contract but the
service contract doesn't.



The most obvious example of this is that one can choose how much to
pay up front - on can choose the phone for free with one set of
tariffs, or pay £75 on purchase and get the same number of minutes
for £10 a month less (on an 18-month contract, for example). One can
also get much cheaper contracts when no phone purchase is involved.


Not sure if you're confusing cause and effect here or if Brits just
look at cellular service differently than Americans. You are
implying that the contract is the monthly service of voice/data
connectivity and a handset. In the US, ONLY the monthly service of
voice/data connectivity is contracted. It seems to me that what you're
ACTUALLY doing when you make your purchase is purchasing a phone at
some price, agreeing to a service level (monthly voice/data) and then
financing the cost of that device through your monthly bill. By paying
the £75 up front you're simply paying for the phone and NOT paying the
cost of it in installments monthly.

But from how I see it the service that is purchased (voice/data
connectivity) remains the same price.

 I haven't seen anything like that here.  The plan costs what it costs;
 you can pay varying amounts up front for different phones.

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Re: Click Feedback?

2008-06-11 Thread Michael 'Mickey' Lauer
On Wednesday 11 June 2008 19:08:48 Esben Stien wrote:
 Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  If we were to get rid of it, we could ditch pulseaudio and go
  directly to alsa.

 You know you should go JACK right?. Going directly to alsa for such a
 real time application is just bad, very bad.

While JACK is pretty cool, it doesn't cut it on embedded systems since there 
is no hardware sound accelleration whatsoever. On a system like ours, JACK 
would just introduce latency, as in the end it goes over ALSA as well

:M:.

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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread Vinc Duran
News Flash! The US doesn't always make sense. I'm a United Statesian. I've
lived around and worked with Europeans for years and I'm always agreeing
that what we have doesn't seem sensible or doesn't appear thought out. It's
very screwy. It just is. :-)

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 1:33 PM, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 Stroller writes:
 
 On 11 Jun 2008, at 15:44, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
 
  Did you get a lower price on your contract than you would have with a
  phone?  Yes, they would have let me pay for a subsidized phone without
  giving me the phone...
 
 Where the heck are you?
 
 To the British it is quite *obvious* that a contract without a phone
 is cheaper.

 US.  To me, it's quite obvious that a contract without a phone
 *should* be cheaper, but that's a long way from is (it actually
 worked out for the best, since I've had a working phne all these
 months as a result).

 The most obvious example of this is that one can choose how much to
 pay up front - on can choose the phone for free with one set of
 tariffs, or pay £75 on purchase and get the same number of minutes
 for £10 a month less (on an 18-month contract, for example). One can
 also get much cheaper contracts when no phone purchase is involved.

 I haven't seen anything like that here.  The plan costs what it costs;
 you can pay varying amounts up front for different phones.

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