Re: Neo Sound and USB Questions
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are there plans to provide a car adapter for the Neo? This is a general problem. Where are USB-Power Adator out there. Also for cars. But most of them just power the 5V line. This is bad with 99% of the bad behaving usb gadgets out there. But Neo is prolite and asks the host if it could draw it's 500mA and if not only takes 100mA out of the bus. This is how the usb specs tell you to do it. But most devices (like usb microovens and the like) just draw power as there would be no tomorrow and don't care how much the host can privice. If your usb-powersupply burns out - bummer. :) So the solutions are: A smart usb power supply. (Never seen any. But should not be so bard to build) A button that puts your Neo in the same i don't care about specs or your usb interface asshole mode other deivces use and just draws it's power. (No idea if that would even work. But i think it might) Has anyone ever seen a smart usb power supply? Maybe the ipod psu? (I could check this some time) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo Sound and USB Questions
I have just seen that this topic is extensively documented on the wiki. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Battery_Charger Especially the dump charger method is something i did not know. Regards Tilman ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Forum? (Was Re: Neo Sound and USB Questions)
Harald Welte wrote: On Tue, Aug 21, 2007 at 11:19:57AM +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Harald, please calm down. I know from your blog how upset you are from setting up the new office location, networks and servers during Taifun time. in fact that was the most fun part. But just one question to answer for yourself: do you want to have community involvement or not? I am from the community ;) And not in my 10+ years of FOSS community development have I seen any project that had problems with properly using mailinglists. Forums are for people who don't understand the technology of properly dealing with e-mails. Of what use is something that's only available online? Of no use at all. Try keeping a local copy of a forum on your laptop. Why should openmoko be any different? We will most likely have a forum for _end users_ at a time where we want to address end users. But not for developers, sorry. Now as your network appears to work again, please focus on solving kernel, uboot, etc. issues that we as the dumb users can't solve ourselves. I am for example still fighting the issue with short and long rootfs flashing and NAND erasing, that leaves an inoperable OpenMoko device If you consider yourself a dumb user, then you probably are not the kind of developer crowd that we are addressing at this moment :( ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Forum? (Was Re: Neo Sound and USB Questions)
Sorry. I had uncontrollable spasms in my mouse finger. Or whatever. This mail was not intentionally sent. Sorry I just wanted to agree with harald. But not whith sending a blanc email. :) Forums suck for many reasons. (No filter, no archiving, no offline use, ...) No FOSS project of any importance needed a forum for anything. If someone likes forums so much. Write a mailinglist-2-frum proxy. Or make a pimped up verison of the list arcives for browser use. (This is a part where all/most mailinglists really stink at the moment) Tilman Baumann wrote: Harald Welte wrote: On Tue, Aug 21, 2007 at 11:19:57AM +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Harald, please calm down. I know from your blog how upset you are from setting up the new office location, networks and servers during Taifun time. in fact that was the most fun part. But just one question to answer for yourself: do you want to have community involvement or not? I am from the community ;) And not in my 10+ years of FOSS community development have I seen any project that had problems with properly using mailinglists. Forums are for people who don't understand the technology of properly dealing with e-mails. Of what use is something that's only available online? Of no use at all. Try keeping a local copy of a forum on your laptop. Why should openmoko be any different? We will most likely have a forum for _end users_ at a time where we want to address end users. But not for developers, sorry. Now as your network appears to work again, please focus on solving kernel, uboot, etc. issues that we as the dumb users can't solve ourselves. I am for example still fighting the issue with short and long rootfs flashing and NAND erasing, that leaves an inoperable OpenMoko device If you consider yourself a dumb user, then you probably are not the kind of developer crowd that we are addressing at this moment :( ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Screenshots
Amy Stephen wrote: But, IMO, the color scheme is wrong! I know lots of amazing technical hurdles are being cleared and political ones, as well. But, that color scheme is going to hold this thing back. It should be snazzy and bright and colorful and full of ENERGY! Not orange and black like Halloween. The added gray does not help, either! I like the new schme very much. Dark interfaces aren't generally bad. My Desktop is black and gray. Or just have a look at the LG Chocklate, it is mainly black and red. The best looking phone ui ever i would say. :) (iPhone excluded) But i'm sure this will be no real concern in the future, since theming is of course mandantory. Regards Tilman ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FM Radio
Giles Jones wrote: Ian Stirling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : It's valuable if it's very cheap or free. But it's another chip on the already large board. Agree DAB radios are more useful given the number of extra channels. Agree. Definitely more geekish. :) There's no end of features you could implement, mobile TV would be another feature now that the EU have standardised on a format. A DAB receiver could also supply you with DMB data. Which would be for example video compressed for mobile use... DMB is DAB with oder codecs used in the data streams. But i would not say radio or mobile video would be in any a important feature. I just liked to add this information without valueing the idea of a radio in such device. :) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: At the risk of being flamed : State of software
I like Qtopie too. Especially considering how well they could handle embedded guis for years. But in reallity. qt and c++ is a limitation. Look how far Opie was evolved during the last years and how god id was from the beginning. But it still was more or less insignificant. Then look how far Nokia got with theyr maemo gtk modell. Within half a year they had a big community and lots of great programms ported. Sure, gtk and x is not as clean as qt is. But what does it help? I'm quite happy with the choice. But i would enjoy trieung out qtopia on my neo if anyone ports it. But where the real stuff goes on is the pragmatic way. wim delvaux wrote: HI all, Champion of open source and user of familiar on Ipaq when time was new, i wonder if it was such a good idea to rewrite from scratch an entire GUI system. Knowing that the device is now about 6 months late and looking at the overall stability and completeness of the GUI (List of issues is still long perhaps too long ?) I wonder if it would not have been a better solution to put things like QTopia on the phone. I mean, how long will it still take to get things to this level (http://trolltech.com/products/qtopia/learnmore/screenshots4/?searchterm=screenshots) ? Perhaps with a different style or something but at least QTopia has been around for quite a few years, sporting a nice portfolio of apps, having a nice ,portable and powerfull GUI library. I know that the software is not fully GPL and FREE but what REALLY is Fully free ? AFAIK you can mess around with qtopia ad lib (hey, look at opie's fork), sources are available, support is great (KDE ...) and for FIC's sake, they can focus there entire resource of a great phone. For me, the free community does not need (really) a new GUI library. It needs a good phone ! Our interest lies in having a nicely featured device available so that we hackers can release our creativity and write apps that users like and not - yet again - re-invent the wheel to start all over again. And for what ? For a theme ? For true GPL ? ... So what about porting QTopia to the NEO as backup scenario ? I.e. how much more delays can we afford ? W ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: At the risk of being flamed : State of software
Am 24.08.2007 um 21:03 schrieb Lorn Potter: Tilman Baumann wrote: I like Qtopie too. Especially considering how well they could handle embedded guis for years. But in reallity. qt and c++ is a limitation. Look how far Opie was evolved during the last years and how god id was from the beginning. But it still was more or less insignificant. Opie is but a fork of Qtopia. Using Qt and c++ is hardly a limitation. Take a look at KDE. The limitation is that you have to use it. If you like it or not. Or in other words, you don't code for the project unless you are a QT nerd. Then look how far Nokia got with theyr maemo gtk modell. Within half a year they had a big community and lots of great programms ported. Thats more because they had some cool hardware. Meamo is not all that free - it contains proprietary parts, which is a consequence of using LGPL, which is why Amgstrom does not build flash images for these devices. I'm not talking bout freedom. I'm talking about easy porting and giving a community the tools they are used to use. Sure QT is cool, kde is cool and qtopia is cool. But you limit yourself to the fraction of delopers who care about QT. Openmoko (and maemo) it is more or less, take one of millions of gtk programms kick it through the compiler and run it. And if you like it usable, replce some gtk widgets. As i said. Give me qtopia on the Neo, i would like it. But i can certainly see why his was not choosen as default. And i'm happy with that decision. Gtk is no bad desicion at all. Even though i agee, qtopia is relly sexy. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How snappy can the Openmoko GUI get using GTK?
denis wrote: Watching a lot of videos about Openmoko and the GUI I saw that it is very slow and yards away from being snappy. (regarding the application startup and the acting inside an application) I know that speed is not the priority thing in developement at the moment but how fast and snappy can the Openmoko GUI using GTK get? I think this will improve with the new faster CPU. Seeing the difference between the Nokia 770 and the Nokia 800 (faster CPU), this will make a great difference. Especially considerung that OpenMoKo and Maemo use very much the same technology. But you are right at some point. Having a true multitasking os with memory management and the like and a display abstraction layer like X servers is completely different from dump devices like (old) palm with neither of them. *g* And as you said. The sofware is not optimised yet. I would say the device has enough horse power and most important enough RAM to run smoothly eventually. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo Sound and USB Questions
Al Johnson wrote: Hey! If you someday make this sound system for your car, please share with us some docs/photos/anything ;) Be sure, mate, you'll get that docs/pictures/anything when it's done. (Probably the first thing I'll do with GTA2) And you'll be the first to get the link to the source code, for my application to get some engine data, like oil temperature, oil pressure, and everything my board electricity gives me to put on that screen :) USB to CAN-bus interface for access to onboard data bus? That would give some interesting possibilities... Something like this already exists for N770/N800 http://openbossa.indt.org/carman/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Two finger input methods (PyGTK demos)
Josef Wolf wrote: On Sun, Sep 02, 2007 at 07:49:43PM +0200, Lars Hallberg wrote: [ ... ] Not much faster I'm afraid, but a new version available at the same place: http://www.micropp.se/openmoko/res/key2key.py Lars, can you please explain what you mean how this new 12-chars-per-key system works? I have tried to run this on my suse-box (no more neo's available :-(): Use Pythin 2.5. The partition method is introduced in version 2.5 python2.5 key2key.py on my debian box. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fwd: A guestion
Andreas Utterberg wrote: Thanx for the fast replies! Does anybody have a good howto on how to setup a sandbox env on a Fedora to be able to write apps? I have also read that most applications is written i GTK+, can one program in any other languages for the moko? Such as python/perl? I have seen python guis. Perl is available but i don't know if there are gtk bindngs available. The python bindings seem to be more or less complete. Python will be the prefered language for scripting as it looks now. So you can expect full support there at least in the future. But i have to say, i have no idea how far pyhon is specificly on openmoko. It might even be fully complete yet. I am really eager to buy a moko, but is it functional today, im living in sweden, is it stable to call from on GSM? Rumors have that GSM is working stable now. When i checked last weeks it was not (yet). Also are there any disadvantages to by a moko right now? Early software early hardware. Both will improve in time... Does the new 02 have a new design, specs so its smarter to wait? Better hardware. (see previous mails on ths thread) You can start developing in qemu or native builds. If you think you can live without getting the developer hardware now, i suggest you wait. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo Apps: Synergy?
Jeffrey Thomas wrote: Anyone know if Synergy (client), which allows for mouse/keybd/clipbd sharing between two or more computers, will be available on the Neo? http://synergy2.sourceforge.net/ Should be easy to make a package. Go ahead. ;) PS: I have not looked if it is already available. Maybe it is... Regards Tilman ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors
Raphael Jacquot wrote: Flemming Richter Mikkelsen wrote: we need * flawlessly working dialer * flawlessly working address book * flawlessly working SMS send/receive the rest can probably wait ;D And directly after that a flawless browser and flawless instant messanging. Because that is where the added value starts to be visible. Regards Tilman ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2007.2 dialer suggestions
Joshua Layne wrote: One, the answer icon doesn't look that much different from the ignore icon: http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/f/f0/Dialer-incoming-arrows.png Could there be a color shift here? maybe a green/red thing? I know that green/red is bad for color blind, but for those of us who aren't color blind it would help (and I would argue that orange/orange is just as bad for anyone colorblind (or not)) Agree. Red and green is without any doubt the international gold standard. Anyone who has ever used a mobile phone knows the function of the red and green button. Even my grandpa. :) That does not mean we should paint the gui with random colours. But for this specific buttons everything else would be stupid. Red and green rims around the buttons would give enough visual clue. This way we could keep the consistent icons. Regards Tilman ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: application idea
Jeff Andros wrote: Last night, while I was looking at the monsoon blowing just outside the heat-island... in my open-top jeep... I had an application idea: GPS based weather feeds. on a schedule/when you move into a new area, the phone will go out to a server and retrieve the weather information for the area you're in. being able to glance at the today screen and see up-to-date weather data would be nice The biggest challenge would be a mapping from gps coordinates to regions/postcodes or such. If you have this information, you could do all sorts of crazy stuff. But i doubt these data would be very easy to get. Maybe with some algorithm that finds out the nearest known gps location from wikipedia. Many cities are already geo-tagged in wikipedia. Or maybe there is a open and ready to use database out there. But i doubt it. Having the list on the device seems not very practical either. :( But, hey if we would have such a framework all kinds of crazy things could come out of that. *g* Local Wheather, local time zone selection, local party informations, restaurant guides (Qype?), local dial plans for DTMF dialing (This feature _has_ to come *g*), ... If someone stumbles upon such services that can use gps coordinates, this might be a good start. But i guess such services are very sparse. And last but not least. The biggest problem would be to find services that are available world wide. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Qtopia coming for Neo1973
Alexey Feldgendler wrote: On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 17:45:51 +0200, Mauro Iazzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hate to say it but in my experience at least, its a dream developing apps using QT esp given the nice IDE in comparison to using GTK. QT just has the docs and organised feel which makes it easy. with the drawback that _everything_ will need to be Qt based Why is that? Qtopia is a complete application stack which is not based on the traditional technologies used in unix. Especially problematic is that they have a gui-server which works directly on the framebuffer. Not X11 like all other systems. This has better performance and is in my eyes the perfect solution for embedded devices. But that is the reason why you can not just compile any X11 application for the phone and run it. But this issue is more or less a non-issue, because there is a x-server for qtopia avaiblable. But if you want to have native applications which fit right in the framework you have to use Qt and C++. And the other problem is that QT has different views about things like PIM storage (addressbook, calendar ...), phone systems (gsmd vs. the qtopia phone-driver system) and so on. Both systems just don't fit very well together. And i like both concepts... But thats how it is. Opensource is just about freedom to choose. The more choices the better... Regards Tilman Baumann ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gpsd and AGPS
Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: Hello, On 9/3/07, Ian Stirling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-GPS http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Server:A-GPS I just keep wondering how hard it would be for us opensource prople to set up a network of assistance servers? Would a PC with an usb GPS device (and suitable os and software of course) be able to function as an assistance server? The A-GPS data aren't so dynamic as it sounds. I guess this could easyly be done with ipgk updates. Satellites may drift, but not so rapidly that something unexpected happens in days. I think... Regards Tilman Baumann ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Qtopia coming for Neo1973
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has anyone seen these benchmarks: http://zrusin.blogspot.com/2006/10/benchmarks.html It compares Cairo (what GTK+ uses) against QT. When it comes to rendering, I believe Qtopia QT use the same code. So ignoring X, Qt was respectively 7, 5 and 6 times faster. Than Cairo in those plain tests. Now factor in the fact that QWS has a lot less overhead than X and a smaller memory footprint. Can someone _please_ give me a technical reason why they believe GTK+ is better? The only arguments I've seen on this list are philosophical ones. The only technical argument has been that you can run applications on the phone and have them appear on your desktop thanks to X. Surely there is a better reason? Portability would be the main reason. I guess. But hey. Philosophical reasons are damn good reasons if you have to work with that stuff! Many people just cant stand the pain using C++. ;-) Someone had to make that choice. And it was made. I bet for good reasons. If you don't like it? Ignore it. Make it better. Whatever. No one made a decision for _you_. My first thought when Nokia released Maemeo was they are stupid. But success proves them right. When OpenMoKo started, these experience where already made. I would do the same today. Tilman Baumann ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Qtopia coming for Neo1973
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Very simple, i would think it is about compatibility of code. With openmoko, it is a small difficulty to port a normal linux application to openmoko. With Qtopia, it would probably involve a rewrite of major sections of the code. Also, one possible solution to this would be to run an x server which outputed to a QWS window. I seem to remember something like this being developed for OpenZaurus years ago. I would have thought something like Xvfb or Xephyr could be modified to display output into a QWS window? If you don't like it? Ignore it. Make it better. Whatever. No one made a decision for _you_. True. Who am I to challenge the decisions of others? Because it is too late. :) I understand that, but I just can't bare to see duplication of effort in community projects, it's such a waste of such talented people. No it's not. Its the reason why opensource is so diverse and successful. Would you really say either gnome or is wasted effort and should be discontinued? Or vim/gnome,linux/bsd,gecko/webkit/mysql/postgres... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Qtopia coming for Neo1973
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Very simple, i would think it is about compatibility of code. With openmoko, it is a small difficulty to port a normal linux application to openmoko. With Qtopia, it would probably involve a rewrite of major sections of the code. So you're saying Qtopia makes it harder to port desktop applications designed to be used with a 17+ monitor, keyboard and mouse to a device with no buttons and a 2.8 touch screen. I'd argue that the problems with porting desktop applications are far greater than the underlying framework. Are there any instances of a desktop application being ported to the OpenMoko which is usable? The only one I've seen is gpaint on OpenHand's Poky Linux, and that looked fiddly at best. counter-example: claws for maemo. Full grown mailer. Little redesign on the GUI (Theme!) and suddenly the best mailer for maemo was born. Some fine tuning later and it felt just right on that platform. maemo-mapper. Best app for maemo. Was based on GPSDrive. pidgin and xchat where also made into mobile maemo apps with quite acceptable interfaces. And many other good examples are on maemo.org Graned, this are examples for the Nokia770 which has a bigger screen than the Neo. But i would say tit proves the point Tilman ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: No Camera???
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A survey on The Register (UK site) had camera at the lowest required feature with about 25% of people saying they need one and 25% saying the couldn't care less. Do you have a link? I can't seem to find it. Also, The Register's readers are hardly representative of the mobile phone market! Waht market? Forget about market. The Neo has no need to provide what the 'Marked' wants. The Marked is oversaturated by Nokia, Motorola and co. It would be completely sucidal to compete with them. Openmokos chance is to fill a niche that is not covered by all the big vendors. And that is freedom, the ability for unlimitless customisability and software that is written by nerds who love theyr software and written for nerds. the Neo is in no way a phone for the average. This marked is well served with the usual suspects. Ok, I was under the impression the Neo would be aimed at end users. Where is the conflict? Linux distros are for end users too. But clearly not for everyone. But that is ok. World domination can wait. It would be completely stupid to enter the marked with linux as a windows replacement for everyone as it would be stupid to enter the marked with the Neo as a replacement for all the nokia phones out there. You can just take all 'end user surveys' and stick them enywhere. They are irelevant. The question is, where can the Neo find its marked where the others are not. If a phone would be fine is non the less a valid question. But as it was said, there is non going to come for the next version. Because it is impossible to change the design so far. period. And i don't think that will be a killer. Later versions might have a phone. Maybe... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: No Camera???
Ajit Kallingal wrote: Oft used features don't target the whole market, but it being available will motivate younger generation to get the cool Neo phone, Making Neo/OpenMoko a commercial success will also help wider acceptance, Keeping it restricted to the Nerd market will not help future demand by lowering prices. No. Restricting it to the Nerd marked is the only thing that keeps it alive. (For the beginning) It will be a success if only 1% off all cellphone buyers are Nerds, and buy from FIC. IMHO As i said I'dont argue against a camera. But there will be none for the next model. This ist just a plain fact. And i don't think it will be a problem. There are bigger problems that could hurt the Neos success. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Closing apps
Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote: Shawn Rutledge wrote: On Nov 18, 2007 4:20 PM, Olaf Lüke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, yes you do ;-). Since the second version of the GUI you can close applications with pressing the power button shortly. If you press IMO that's a very strange, and very unintuitive way to close applications. It may be unintuitive as long as you don't know about it, but once you know, it's pretty handy for operating the device one-handed -- at least for the right handers. Also, note the semantic adjacence between closing an application (turning off the power of this application) and closing the whole operating system. So, to me it sounds pretty intuitive. Agree. But i find both Buttons on the phone very cumbersome. Because they are so small and embeded in the case. But this is a conpletely different story... :) *g* Regards Tilman Baumann ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Closing apps
Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote: Tilman Baumann wrote: But i find both Buttons on the phone very cumbersome. Because they are so small and embeded in the case. But this is a conpletely different story... *g* Yes, the buttons are a nightmare. Sorry about that, but we inherited the design. This will be fixed with a completely new case for the successor to GTA02. Looking forward for that. Emancipating from the inherited case design sounds like the ultimate akt of freedom for the nerds. :)) For now, will probably just stick a blob of epoxy on the power button. The home button works well enough. A little bit higher cap for the power button would fix that issue. But i guess you have already considered that option. :) Regards Tilman ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SIM Card Copy
SIM cards are smartcards. They can not be copied by design! The only way to duplicate a SIM is to hack it. No idea if and how far that is possible. But it is certainly not legal. Ask your provider for a duplicate SIM. Many providers will give you multiple identical SIM if you need them. (At least here in germany) Cailan Halliday wrote: I just had an idea that I got from a couple of devices, how about a virtual SIM card? Is it possible to make an ISO of a SIM card and store it in the Neo to be, for lack of a better word, booted from? I've seen devices like these: http://www.thetravelinsider.com/phones/simsaver.htm http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/cellphone/9ca8/ This could replace the idea of having multiple SIM card slots, this way you can have multiple carriers on your phone without the need for more slots. -Cailan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SIM Card Copy
Cailan Halliday wrote: http://www.thetravelinsider.com/phones/simsaver.htm http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/cellphone/9ca8/ They only copy readeable data like address books and alike. Not the entire sim. This could replace the idea of having multiple SIM card slots, this way you can have multiple carriers on your phone without the need for more slots. You could route the pins from the gsm moduleto another SIM slot than the builtin. You could even do this via network (probably with some additional hardware). Like a giant virtual extension cord. You could even design a dual sim slot where you can switch over from one sim to another. (and reset the gsm modem if you switched) But you will always need a sim in hardware. ;) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: need someone to develop this....
Beware. This is not a new idea. Patents? ;) Btw. i would suggest bashing the phones together. (like a wood block instrument) This will produce uinique paterns which do not depend very much on the resolution of the accelerometers and could easyly picket up by a legacy microphone of any hone without accelerometer. Just my 2 Eurocent ;) PS: Great idea indeed. We need this... PS: I know Eve could hear the sounds of the phone bashing together and play a replay attack. But come on, it is Bluetooth. The only reason Bluetooth is not considered insecure is frequency hopping. The crypro layer is lame. Heikki Sørum wrote: When were talking about different ways to use accelerometers.. Bob meet's Alice and they both want each others contact information. First Bob and Alice shake their phones in an predetermined password pattern to unlock the bluetooth/zigbe/(whatever-short-range-radio). Then they both shake their phones in rythm to an short tune playing on Alice's phone. The phones then pair with the other phone, exchange simple authkeys and Vcards. Now Bob and Alice has authenticated each others phones and they got each others phone number. Lucky Bob and Alice! On an more serious note, Two such paired bluetooth devices could also exchange an RSA/DSA encryption key to ensure private SMS/MMS/conversations. Heikki Soerum. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: digital compass modules
Schmidt András wrote: Hi! A compass module would be very nice with many applications! I have no hardware related experince. Is it possible to integrate a chip like this into the phone? How would you do that? Bluetooth would be nice. You would need no hardware hacks on the phone itself. Should be pretty easy to hack a bluetooth-serial converter (like BlueSMiRF from sparkfun) to the sensor. Maybe with a little microcontroller glue in between. Bluetooth is very simple to code and simple to handle. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: digital compass modules
François TOURDE wrote: Le 13901ième jour après Epoch, Schmidt András écrivait: Tilman Baumann wrote: Bluetooth would be nice. You would need no hardware hacks on the phone itself. Should be pretty easy to hack a bluetooth-serial converter (like BlueSMiRF from sparkfun) to the sensor. Maybe with a little microcontroller glue in between. Bluetooth is very simple to code and simple to handle. I was thinking about two possible applications: 1. The map of a GPS map viewer application turns when you turn the machine so it is always aligned with the environment (this feature is included on some GPS tools.) Maybe the 3D accels can do that. And the GPS can be used as a bearing indicator, when you move. No magnetic device needed in this case. Gyroscopes is what you look for. ;) Accelerameters don't see rotational movings. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Nokia to acquire Trolltech to accelerate software strategy
Patrick Davila wrote: I think the whole point of this takeover is Qtopia. Yes, the Nokia N800 series internet tablet uses Maemo (based on gtk). Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't most of Nokia's cell phones running Symbian? Maybe buying Trolltech is cheaper than continually licensing Symbian? Maybe not. But it's way more modern and flexible. *g* There are versions of symbian out there which deserve the name operating system. But nobody uses them AFAIK. And as good as nobody makes software for symbian. I would haveloved if they went to the maemo platform. But qtopia is probably really the better choice for a phone. Regards Tilman ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FM Tuner for RDS on the Neo ?
Lionel Dricot wrote: Hello, I'm very interested by the Neo1973 and I was thinking about doing some hardware/software hacking on it. I have several questions. 1) I want to develop an application linked to a FM tuner (with data, like RDS). Any idea on how I could add a FM tuner on a neo 1973 ? Maybe with USB ? Or a chip that I could buy separately ? This is a usual question. Although you could configure the USB port in host mode. It would be unpowered. So there is no real good way to add external hardware. How about a dedicated radio box with separate batteries and remote control and sound via Bluetooth. Bluetooth has a audio profile, and adding a simple control port sounds not too impressive to me. Regards Tilman ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FM Tuner for RDS on the Neo ?
Jeff Andros wrote: On Jan 30, 2008 6:07 AM, Tilman Baumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip This is a usual question. Although you could configure the USB port in host mode. It would be unpowered. snip Regards Tilman I haven't heard anything about it for a while, but IIRC freerunner is supposed to have a powered USB port You could be right. But i did not find any proof on the wiki. But to be honest, i thought i heard that too some time... Tilman ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mono development in openmoko
Schmidt András wrote: Hi Juan, From technology side Java and C# is so similar that they should do the same performance. It is only Microsoft who is hyping that C# performs better. The only difference I know and has performance effect is the presence of structures in C# but not many programs would make an advantage of that. I can not belive that a Mono GTK app can be the same speed on java/swing. And any step to integrate your app into the system, leads you to things like D-Bus and gconf. Sure, you can make JNI bindings for all of them. But i have never seen any. Mono has them... Just my 2 Eurocents Tilman ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Kill The Clock
This brings me to a idea. Do we have some central repository (wiki?) where all gconf options are documented? Since we don't have a control-GUI yet, this seems to me like a very nice thing to have... Christopher Earl wrote: Someone asked about killing the Huge clock that takes up the whole display quicksand on #openmoko gave me this, it makes the clock real small and docks it on the date bar This works from ssh dbus-launch gconftool-2 --type bool --set /desktop/poky/interface/small_clock true ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Access Linux Platform SDK released
Nils Faerber wrote: This is not very productive, leads to fragmentation and does not help many - only the shareholders of the lucky winner of that fight (and luck is meant literally, this is a game of luck or have you seen the better one win in recent years? I just way Win :) Not really. Openmoko has the hands-on imperative. :-) I can see why openmoko does it's stuff independent. As a OSS developer, i would like to make the best technology and not fight over politics with big corporates in any of these committees. Openmoko is technology driven, and this is good. Technology shapes products, not comities. And when a winner, or let's say best way to do things, is declared, i'm sure all of them would be happily go this one path together. I'm pretty sure you don't have to toss all your work in the bin to be compliant with other standards. Sure, i would rather see more collaboration too. And maybe there is, i would be surprised if not... Just my 2 Eurocent. Tilman ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Force shutdown
If your phone is not entirely dead, holding power vor 10! sec would shut off the device. (not tactile feedback. You don't knwo whrn it shut down when your display is off at this time) Releasing the button shortly and press long again boots again. M Nader wrote: Hi, Is there a way to force shutdown (like holding the power key for 5+ sec) in GTA01 devices rather than removing the battery? If not will we have that in version 2?. -M Nader ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: And Now For Something Completely Different...
Robin Paulson wrote: as an aside, where did the name come from for the phone OS? Mobile Kommunication (Or was it Kommunikation? *g*) At least this was Harald Weltes version of what the name means... Regards Tilman ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Kill The Clock
Lon Lentz wrote: Is anyone working on a settings app for being able to make these kinds of adjustments through the ui? I would be interested in doing it but don't want to duplicate efforts. I don't think so. There is SettingsGUI. Which is basically a collection of bad and not so bad known hacks combined in one GUI. Written in python. It's a nice hack, but not a solution. :) I see two possible solutions. Either single programs for single subsystems collected in one menu tree. But this would have horrible startup times. But would be maybe simpler to implement. Or like in gnome with capplets. (gnome configuration center applets) http://developer.gnome.org/arch/desktop/capplets.html What do you think? Regards Tilman ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Force shutdown
Am 20.02.2008 um 22:26 schrieb Shawn Rutledge: On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 12:20 PM, Tilman Baumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If your phone is not entirely dead, holding power vor 10! sec would shut off the device. (not tactile feedback. You don't knwo whrn it shut down (10 factorial) seconds is exactly 42 days, heh heh. (Google calculator was handy.) Neat. 42, the answer once again. :) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How Alice and Bob got telephone/SMS spam on their Moko.
Heikki Sørum wrote: This could at least be mitigated by _not_ using different spamtags and by defaulting the Moko's behavior to only display warnings rather than silently ignore. In addition they contact list in Bob's and Alice's could work as a whitelist. Any other suggestions on how to combat Mallory? A reputation/karma system combined with probability ratings might help a bit. A central trusted list like dns blacklist would probably not work, because checking reports would be unsolicited calls for the checked number and it would produce cost. Therefore the only method would be some kind of social network thing. People could be trusted when they submit data that other persons have also reported. A extended check could check for unrelated clouds, like multiple persons reporting the same data. A cloud of reports bound together by multiple persons reporting the same thing could become more trusted when the same people also reported sigificantly to other clouds... But i think spam fighting methods could be added later when the systems becomes a targed. What i mean is, not having a working spam fighting mechanism yet must not mean that we should not start building this system. I know people working in a social media platform, and they got along with implementing their spam fighting techniques later, and they tested multiple methods to solve this problem and are constantly changing it still. But i'm sure a system like 'i trust someone because i trust that one because i trust...' (you get the idea...) would be the answer. In my eyes, trust should be calculated automaticly, not by manually defining trust (like pgp). Using the system could improve it. I have better things to do with my life than managing trust relations for my spam filter... And by the way. Spamassassin (or better something 'lighter') for sms sounds like a really really good idea... Just my 2 Eurocents Tilman PS: This calls for a interception API on the phone. Fighting spam would not be the only thing that would be nice to hook into these events. Configurable ringtones for different people, programmable ringtones and so on come to mind. Is there anything there yet? Or planned? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: Regarding Neo FreeRunner pre-orders
Marc Verwerft wrote: Well, I live in Belgium and I can assure you that sales tax here is 21 % as opposed to Germany's 16 % ... 16% Not anymore... :( But as afar as i know, you can sell inside the EU to other EU countries and tax where they buyer lives. Don't ask me how, but i think there is something like that. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How Alice and Bob got telephone/SMS spam on their Moko.
ian douglas wrote: Tilman Baumann wrote: In my eyes, trust should be calculated automaticly, not by manually defining trust (like pgp). Using the system could improve it. Perhaps number of successful phone calls, and length of phone call to add a number of trust 'points' ... the more successful calls over some length of time, the more trusted someone becomes. Still, having individual profiles as someone else mentioned, would be ideal too. For example, I'd want my wife's phone call to ring no matter time of day or busy status (meetings, etc). A call from my mother-in-law, however, should never play any ring tone during business hours, and unknown caller ID values should never play any ring tone and route them immediately to voice mail. This would be a locally managed call managing system. Definitely a thing we need to. But not quite the same thing as we discussed. But i am absolutely with you, wee need this. And it would probably be a good idea to design a system like this first. And then extend it in the future for distributed network blacklists. I have better things to do with my life than managing trust relations for my spam filter... Well, even tools like SpamAssassin need training to teach it what is considered spam or not. Yea. But this is limited to a simple question 'was this call spam?'. What i mean was that you should have 'the list[tm]' that is automatically the right thing for you. And not havong to decide actively whoms reports you trust. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FAX2PDF with OpenMoko?
Nils Faerber wrote: Ricky Fitz schrieb: Hi, I just had the idea that it would be nice, to make OpenMoko to act as a fax-receiver, convert the fax to PDF and do somethin' with it. Is this possible, already implemented, or is software out there which can be used on the Neo/Freerunner to do that? Depends largely on the modem, i.e. if it can handle analog incoming fax transmissions. The rest should be quite easy. There are a lot of utilities around to receive a G3 fax from a modem (like mgetty-sendfax) and to convert the resulting G3 into something more useful, like PNG or even PDF. Never ever will a GSM module be a G3 Fax. (IMHO) And everything else is just hell. Fax and software don't go well together. I don't thing this idea has potential. Out source the problem to any fax provider and let others feel the pain. Fax is dead. Just my 2 Eurocents Tilman ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How Alice and Bob got telephone/SMS spam on their Moko.
Flemming Richter Mikkelsen wrote: It is just one idea. I don't know how complicated it would be. (This would need the gsm driver to be in the kernel, but I assume it is.) It is not. *g* Receiving SMS is something the GSM unit makes almost autonomously. gsmd (the driver ;) )just reads the messages out if they arrive. No need to cram this into the kernel. Besides the fact that sms is something completely different than a network stack with addresses protocols and so on... Designing a filter system is no black magic. Beginning with the fact that it does not have to filter thousands of packets with low latency. So even a five year old could make a decent filter that would be enough for filtering sms. ;) In Germany we have the saying 'shooting sparrows with canons' ;) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Wiki dialer warning
Jeremiah Flerchinger wrote: The warning on the wiki says: *WARNING:* *The OpenMoko GUI applications are not suitable for end users yet.* They are still in beta. Do not expect to always and reliably make and receive calls from the OpenMoko GUI. Thanks to the openness of the FIC Neo1973 hardware, there is also an alternative to the OpenMoko GUI: Qtopia 4.3.x is released under GPL and is at the edge of being usable for phone use. How reliable is the dialer currently? Can we remove Do not expect to always and reliably make and receive calls from the OpenMoko GUI from the warning yet? Not quite yet. But almost. IMHO PS: Do not reply on tread when you want to open a new topic! Your mailer is smarter than you. In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Agh ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 25 native [iPhone|OpenMoko] we hope to see
David Samblas Martinez wrote: 22. Digital level Is any side of the phone straigh enough to be able to develop such a freaking geek widget? I could be a funny exercice to play with the accelerometers. No camera, no point. ;) Tilman ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warning. Don't remove battery with usb power
Ben Wilson wrote: Hey Nick, I've not looked at the electronics inside the neo myself but the sound is typical in the electronics world of a switchmode power supply under grate strain. The reason is a bit more banal. (AFAIK) The scream has just the frequency how much the main cpu can boot and detect that there is no battery and reset. (something like that) Probably not a good thing for the components, but not a result of any stress to the power drivers. But maybe it results in stress for them... Don't know. Better avoid it. :) Regards Tilman Baumann ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 25 native [iPhone|OpenMoko] we hope to see
joerg wrote: Am Mo 3. März 2008 schrieb Tilman Baumann: David Samblas Martinez wrote: 22. Digital level Is any side of the phone straigh enough to be able to develop such a freaking geek widget? I could be a funny exercice to play with the accelerometers. Sure, at least backside. No camera, no point. ;) Tilman ??? I assumed that this would use the camera and overlay some horizontal bars or something like that on the live picture to help to level something. But i realise that you could also simulate a water level on the screen and hold the device with it's side onto something. Sometimes i think a bit complicated... Tilman ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warning. Don't remove battery with usb power
Jay Vaughan wrote: Just a reminder to everyone *NOT* to pull out the battery while the neo has USB power. i did this. i had to get a new neo: my first one got *fried* from this. dunno what to do with the old one, frankly it bothers me having it sit there doing nothing. anyone got any suggestions? The dead part should be easy to find. And all chips are known... I would say, try to repair it. Or find someone who can... Do you know what part is dead? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Jonathon Suggs wrote: Why? Don't know your exact situation but my guess is that even when the FreeRunner is initially released it isn't going to be completely polished anyway. So rather than get all frustrated (and build some resentment toward the project like I did) don't put an artificial timeframe on them...they will release the hardware when it is ready, not when you are ready for the hardware. You don't need Openmoko in it's first generation to have perfect phone. You would need it because you want to hack it. Everyone complaining that Openmoko is not ready yet, does not have a clue what this is all about. It will be ready some time, and it will be the greatest phone on the planet. But this is something the community needs to make it happen. The first gen freerunner will be a TOOL for making the greatest phone! Well the delay sucks. But it sucks for hackers not for endusers. And by the way, making phone calls will most likely not be a issue. Since it is already rather stabele at the moment. Regards Tilman ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: choosing a standard
Flemming Richter Mikkelsen wrote: My plan is to connect the divices to a micro controller, a multiplexer and then to a linksys wireless router (flashed) over rs232 or usb. A normal computer could of course also be used. Sun had Jini, which was then a bit to early and now nearly forgotten. UPNP has some aspects of remote control in a semantically abstract way. But UPNP is way too complex to be cool. :( Looks to me completely over designed and arbitrary. I hoped to see someting to come out of the bluetooth corner. But have not seen anything interesting there yet. And all that house automation and telemetry crap (like CANOpen) i have seen looks to mee like it would be not abstract enough to be fun at all. Never heard of that XPL thing, but sounds really nice. :) Regards Tilman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: support win mobile
Ryan Prior wrote: This really shows how little the OpenMoko community understands the Neo. Why port Windows Mobile when we could be porting Windows 3.1? Windows 3.1 is a lightweight OS which has excellent application support from a broad and stable base of industry, and which has successors which we know to be of excellent quality. As the capabilities of future Neo phones increase, we have an upgrade path which we know to be successful and an ever-expanding number of applications supported. The future is DOS - Windows 3.1 You made my day. But i want to run AmigaOS on the Pucky. Could someone please port that to polymethane foam? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: choosing a standard
Tilman Baumann wrote: Flemming Richter Mikkelsen wrote: My plan is to connect the divices to a micro controller, a multiplexer and then to a linksys wireless router (flashed) over rs232 or usb. A normal computer could of course also be used. Sun had Jini, which was then a bit to early and now nearly forgotten. UPNP has some aspects of remote control in a semantically abstract way. But UPNP is way too complex to be cool. :( Looks to me completely over designed and arbitrary. Just found this. http://www.gupnp.org/ Claims to take the pain away from using upnp. Maybe that's just enough. Benefit of upnp would be, that there are already many devices out there. And if 'the industry'[tm] chooses any as standard, it will probably be this. Tilman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Wireless charger for Neo
Alexey Feldgendler wrote: Will OpenMoko, with its openness, be the first to implement MPLampS? Sure. Next year. Exactly this date, probably. :p ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Accelerometer brainstorming
Flemming Richter Mikkelsen wrote: What do we need the CAN interface for? We already know the speed before we enter the tunnel, and if the neo is in a car holder in a stable position, calibrated with some software, it knows from the accelerometers if we are driving strait ahead or making a turn and also if we are accelerating. With a little bit of mathematics, this can turn out to be very precise. Precise. I don't know... TomTom had to use some mighty black magic to make the sensor drivers somewhat realtime aware. AFAIK Just my 2 Eurocents Tilman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Web Browser?
thomasg wrote: In my honest opinion a iphone-browser is not the solution - it's a tribute to bad webdesign, nothing else. Desktop-like rendering and therefore needed zooming is exhausting and is leading rendering to the point auf absurdity. Rendering is used to make things fit - not to make them look the same whereever it's used. My opinion is just the opposite. There where many attempts to create something like a mobile web. And all failed miserably. (wap, imode, crappy limited browsers) I think it is time to stop making futile attempts to change the web and begin to change mobile browsers and how they are used. The iPhone browser is a good example and by far not the only one. Since mobile browsers take the web as it is, they suddenly became cool. There is nothing wrong with optimizing the data stream for mobile usage (compression, image crappyfication) as long as the page layout stays the same. But even this constraint begins to fade away since UMTS. (Ok, not for the Neo/Feedrunner) Neo has enough horsepower and pixels to provide a decent web experience. I have tested the built in browser (with usb net not GPRS) and it works just fine. Stable layout, wonderful text rendering courtesy of the extremely high dpi of the screen. It just needs some usability tweaks. Like scrolling without the scrollbars. Like Opera does (not opera mini) on the Nokia N770 and successors. Which are by the way a good example for a really good mobile browsing experience. They have a larger screen, but not much more pixels than we. Regards Tilman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Web Browser?
Jose Manrique Lopez de la Fuente wrote: 2008/4/7, Tilman Baumann [EMAIL PROTECTED]: It just needs some usability tweaks. Like scrolling without the scrollbars. Like Opera does (not opera mini) on the Nokia N770 and successors. Which are by the way a good example for a really good mobile browsing experience. They have a larger screen, but not much more pixels than we. On my Maemo devices I usually use 'mobile' versions of some websites because they provide better user experience (it loads faster i. e. compare how much take to load google reader) Mobile versions for certain pages are a reasonable choice. But nothing you can depend on. The Web[tm] just is not mobile. At least not yet. This is the reason why there is no alternative to a full blown working browser. And there is a clear trend for mobile sites. They are not some WAP crap with no layout at all but full html with limited design. Like no 3 column layout, default fonts maybe smaller pictures and so on. This is technology that scales. That's just design optimized for mobile usage based on current technology. Nothing wrong with that. In fact it is a good idea. But changing the web on the browser side (too much) is plain stupid. So i think it is just futile do argument which feature a mobile browser should support and which not. (besides some minor .css aadjustments to reflect the limited screen estate) It just needs to be complete. Crippling pages can only be optional. There will always be a page that just needs to be rendered as it was intended. There is for example nothing wrong with a mobile site that uses AJAX. And a stupid complex site which does not work well on mobile devices is probably more defect after converting it so some limited mobile rendering as it would be with just leaving it as it is. Just my 2 Eurocents Tilman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Web Browser?
Jose Manrique Lopez de la Fuente wrote: 2008/4/7, Tilman Baumann [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Mobile versions for certain pages are a reasonable choice. But nothing you can depend on. True The Web[tm] just is not mobile. At least not yet. The Web shouldn't be mobile neither desktop... it should be ubiquos This is the reason why there is no alternative to a full blown working browser. Who wants an alternative to full blown working browser? The Thread was develping in this direction. :) Browsers should describe their capabilities somehow, that's all. That is what you meant. Others really think mobile browsers should be crippled. Or that is at least what i understood. :) Regards Tilman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Data over normal GSM call
Mikko Rauhala wrote: On ti, 2008-04-08 at 10:22 -0400, Dan Staley wrote: I have plenty of cell minutes (not to mention free calls between certain numbers...) but I dont want to pay for a data planso I figure if I wanted to, I could just have my phone call my computer and transfer data over the line. There has been talk of it (especially in connection to encrypted phonecalls). The archives have a lot of it. To summarize, you can't transfer very useful amounts of data over a GSM voice call since we can't bypass the GSM chip's audio codec for those. Obviously you can get some data through, but the highest anyone's gone was IIRC ~1k using some kind of funky phonetic coding, but I believe there was no exact reference to this either, let alone code (which would be rather complex). Maybe CSD is billed like a voice call. I never used it, but i don't remember any special charges for that. The Wikipedia article about CSD has some hints about running voice modems via GSM too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_Switched_Data Regards Tilman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Data over normal GSM call
Tilman Baumann wrote: Maybe CSD is billed like a voice call. I never used it, but i don't remember any special charges for that. I dug deeper. Seems like this is true. But this raises the question if the Neo can do CSD. Probably it does, since the GSM module does not appear to be somehow intentionally crippled. 9.6 kBit/s is no fun though... Regards Tilman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Data over normal GSM call
Mikko Rauhala wrote: A quick glance finds mostly mentions of 1st gen analog mobiles having been used with modems, and notably At the same time, the speech oriented audio compression used in GSM actually meant that data rates using a traditional modem connected to the phone would have been even lower than with older analogue systems. The Wikipedia article is somewhat misleading here. CSD is real data transfer over the GSM network which is translated via Gateways into PSTN modem calls. A service of the GSM network. Somehow they managed to mix that modem via voice stuff into the CSD article. (Or at least this is how i undrstood this. *g* ) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Web Browser?
Ricky Fitz wrote: Neo has enough horsepower and pixels to provide a decent web experience. I have tested the built in browser (with usb net not GPRS) and it works just fine. Stable layout, wonderful text rendering courtesy of the extremely high dpi of the screen. It just needs some usability tweaks. Like scrolling without the scrollbars. Probably use the accelerometers for this? If phone bends over a few degrees, scroll down or up... ? Maybe. I was more thinking about a grab-and scroll feature (kinetic scrolling). Or smart zooming like the iPhone does. The biggest problem right now is that you have to use small scrollbars to navigate trough big pages. Regards Tilman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Web Browser?
Antoine Reid wrote: While I don't mind using large gestures to perform some operations (like turning the phone upside-down to prevent it from ringing), I don't think small gestures should be on by default. Otherwise, it'll be very hard to use in any case other than sitting down and almost not moving at all... .02$ antoine You are probably right. .02€ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Stop talking about hardware!
Matt Manjos wrote: I guess people could get it airbrushed if it was a matte plastic case, maybe shipped with primer already painted on it. Seems like a lot of work, but it would really fit well with the whole customization thing. Maybe FIC could start selling DIY at-home plastic injection molding kits, too ;) Yea right. As if it would not be hard enough to get the phone selling. :) Come one people. You you need anything in hardware, then make it yourselves! Openmoko is piggybacking on a existing design at Fic. They can and will not change this any more. If alternative cases are such a good idea. Why can't i buy one now? If you think it is reasonable to ask Fic to do it, then first ask yourselves; Can you make a business on it? Then you will see that a bunch of crazy hackers is not a big marked. And hardware is expensive to fabricate. We can be lucky that Fic recognises us as customers with certain needs. And they make a good job in meeting them. As i understood, Fic is in the last testing phases for the hardware. They and we can be happy if they even make it nearly to the planned deadline. So please. Can we all stop asking for hardware changes if we don't absolutely want to make themselves? I have seen so much hot air regarding this. I can not longer hear it! If you want to change something, take the initiative. Or put you effort into the software, it needs it. Really! PS: Sorry Matt. I know it was only sarcasm. I just needed to get this off my chest before i burst even harder. I could not longer bear to hear pipe dreams about hardware. Hardware makes (almost?) 90% of the discussions here and it is the only thing where we had very limited freedom for change from the beginning and even less now since the device is almost ready for mass fabrication. Regards Tilman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: home zone functionality
Alexey Feldgendler wrote: On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 10:34:20 +0200, Tilman Baumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The home zone icon uses a rather strange SMS feature. I don't know details. But there are several message types. Like messages which pop up without asking the user to open it. Or like the O2 logo. Which is a SMS with (smehow) a emebedded pictogram ebedded. Which your phone shows in some status bar or the background. This icon can only be re-set if you get a special delete SMS. AFAIK there are no such things as executable code in SMS. Sure not, never said that. There are specially formatted SMS that set or recent certain flags. For example, there are standardized flags (and ways to set and reset them) for voicemail and fax icons. O2 is probably using an undocumented (reserved) flag bit for their home icon. AFAIK it's really a picture. Regards Tilman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Getting Things Done with Openmoko
Hans L wrote: I'm still working on fully implementing these ideas (been setting up my filing/reference system lately), but it seems to me a device running Openmoko would be the perfect place to do much of this organizing/planning/management. And while I'm certainly not holding out for my Freerunner before trying these methods, I do think it could make a great addition to this system. Yea. It's basically traditional PIM, but with a certain magic touch. So making the traditional PIM apps more process oriented would be a nice first step to a mobile GTD helper. I think orienting the design of these components around DTD ideas would prove very rewarding... Hello openhand UI/PIM gurus? :) Regards Tilman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: turn GSM off?
Peter Kraker wrote: Yes it's possible, you just have to echo 0 to sys interface for gsm power management. Ie: echo 1 /sys/bus/platform/devices/gta01-pm-gsm.0/power_on Nowadays it's called fic01 something I think. Just browse around a little bit. Last time i checked there was a button in the hold-power-button-for-3-seconds-menu. Regards Tilman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The big day.
Vedran Alajbegović wrote: Until that day comes, i wish someone gives me some links where i can start exploring Open Moko wiki.openmoko.org p.s. Is far as i understood, there is emulator that can emulate Open Moko environment on a PC can someone give me some link where i can start with that if there is such a thing!? I tried to find but without success... http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Qemu ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Steve on V5 versus v6
Antoine Reid wrote: On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 8:43 AM, Cesar Eduardo Barros [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dylan Semler escreveu: Wait, no guitar pick? Shouldn't you get the guitar pick with the debug board, since its main use is to plug the debug board? It makes more sense than putting it in the phone box. Don't you need to open the case to insert the battery, the SIM card and the SD card? Or am I mistaken here? Do you need to remove another panel to get to the debug board connector? This was at least so with the Neo 1973. The battery, SIM and MMC compartment is easily to open with bare fingers. (Really, you don't need the guitar pick) If you lost your fingernails in a horrible freak accident or any other reason, you could use anything else thin. :) Going down to the debug port needs a torx screwdriver anyway. The guitar pick is a nice nerdy idea. But completely useless. *g* Regards Tilman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Steve on V5 versus v6
Cesar Eduardo Barros wrote: Getting to the debug port, at least as described in the wiki, needs both the torx screwdriver and the guitar pick. Ah, so this is what the pick is for. Thx. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QEMU slooooow
Eildert Groeneveld wrote: Hi List just wondering if everyone else is suffering from a veeey slow operation in qemu openmoko. First it takes 10 minutes too boot and then trying the applications like calendar or entering telephon numbers is so slow that I never got past one entry. As I have not really seen any comments in this regards, maybe there are means to speed this up. The quemo in this setup emulates the whole phone. If you only want to see how the software works, check out Xoo. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Host-based_development_with_Xoo_and_Xephyr Surely, some hardware depended things will not work, but it will be faster. Depends on what you want... Qemu was always a tool to emulate the phone and not to evaluate any software in realtime speed. There where times where only a emulator existed for the Neo, no hardware. This was when the qemu setup came up. PS: I never tested Xoo. I trust the wiki howto works. Regards Tilman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics
Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote: Patrick Davila wrote: http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2008/04/22/side-by-side-video-windows-mobile-and-embedded-linux/ You have to admit the bling looks pretty. Just a question: the widgets shown are they running on X? It seems they are since you can see kwin running with the KDE default style. And... If I'm right, this means that we could run Qt apps like these also in Openmoko (I mean without X reboot :P), isn't it? Regular K* and Q* apps of course. Just port the qt libs. But not QTopia apps AFAIK. But Holger Freyther (zecke) is currently porting qtopia on x11. See the distro level mailing list for his progress. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko?
Edward Falk wrote: I really liked using GTK to develop -- it meant I could write my code on a workstation with the intent of porting it to Moko later, and also with the possibility of writing a workstation version of the same app. So what are supposed to program in now? Is GTK actually going away? Whatever I switch to, will it run on other platforms (like Linux), or is it proprietary? You will find all that information on the project page. In short. Yes, it is (standard) gtk. You will be able to develop you code on your desktop and run it there. But much of the 'feel' depends on the openmoko theme. The wiki provides some design guides how to use tabs and how to make guis work on a small (high dpi) screen. gtk is not goung away. (Why do you think so?) And to my knowledge there is nothing properitary regarding the gtk stuff. Regards Tilman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: clarification of Qtopia Vs. GTK
Michael Shiloh wrote: * Switches the Window Manager from Matchbox to Enlightenment (E17) Nice. * Ported Qtopia to Xorg, so it is possible to run Qtopia, GTK, ELF, and Python applications all at the same time Really nice. * Replaced the GTK-based basic phone suite (dialer, contacts, SMS) with ones based on Qtopia Why that? The old apps wheren't so bad. They even started to work in the last versions. :-) I liked the style, i liked the architecture. I can not really believe that anyone would like to throw that all away. Not mentioning that we walk on somewhat beaten tracks there. We hat more or less the same technology there as Maemo (Nokia) and Ubuntu mobile. And GPE fitted well too. I hate the Qtopia stuff. It makes a good software for classic mobile handsets. But nothing innovative. Just another mobile phone gui like all the others we have seen so far. It probably works well. But it is plainly boring. :-/ Will a 'new-world' Neo look anything like what i am used to right now? Or what will it look like anyway? Can i test the new stuff on my neo1973? The last build i checked was all 'classic' stuff. Maybe i like it, after i used it... :) Regards Tilman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: clarification of Qtopia Vs. GTK
Michele Renda wrote: Hi Tilman I think they prefered to use an existent project, because they need something running and to concentrate their energy to hardware part. They want to concentrate to the project of hardware, not in GUI writing. Openmoko is a Software project. The software is the only thing that helps to make this 1990ies like piece of hardware cool. According me is a good idea to reuse the software wrote by other people. In every case the software previously written in not trashed. It is released with open licences and it can be implemented by someone who hate too much Qtopia. Hope so. The problem is that the community has little resources. Dividing these resources does not sound like a good idea. And i cant's see how it helpes to throw most of the good work away. (Ok, some was crap. But nothing beyond repair) I think this will piss of developers. And users. Openmoko turned into a nice mobile computing platform with a very technocratic view on things. This is a feature. I would say, _the_ feature. Concorrence is always good for users :) Not necessarily. I prefer innovation. Especially in a industrey that has not produced innovation and good software for decades. (At least not since apple came.) If anyone is in the position to change that, it's we. I don't like so sound to negative. I like most of the changes. But i think throwing the gtk apps away and replace them by the QTopia apps is stupid. I would rather like to see a transition to EFL for the gtk apps. Everything i have seen so far from qtopia apps looks bland and boring. I like the qtopia plattform, as a plattform. But i don't think it's the way to build the nerdiest phone ever. Especially after so much was done right before in a completely different way. Qtopia AFAIK has it's own pim storage api. How would non-qt apps use them? And the gsm stuff? Does this mean we now use the qtpia gsm stack? letting gsmd die would probably one of the better ideas. But i rather like so see it replaced by something similar but working instead of a set of qt apis. Is there any place where to look which back end functionalities will change? Like evolution data server, dbus apis, gsmd, PhoneKit and such... Well, we will see... I should better keep my mouth shut and wait until there are GTA01 builds. Regards Tilman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: clarification of Qtopia Vs. GTK
Tilman Baumann wrote: Well, we will see... I should better keep my mouth shut and wait until there are GTA01 builds. As i'm just in the mood of speaking about the devil right now. I hope this will not end as Nokia N770 all over again. I bought my Neo under the promise that all future software will run on them. (of course not as fast and without wlan and so on...) Going back to work now. Maybe this will provide me a way to redirect my bad attitude into something productive... *g* Tilman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: clarification of Qtopia Vs. GTK
Am 23.05.2008 um 20:49 schrieb Lorn Potter: If anyone is in the position to change that, it's we. I don't like so sound to negative. I like most of the changes. But i think throwing the gtk apps away and replace them by the QTopia apps is stupid. I would rather like to see a transition to EFL for the gtk apps. Everything i have seen so far from qtopia apps looks bland and boring. Qtopia is easily changed/hacked on. The source code is provided for free. You would be amazed at what some of Qtopia's customers are doing with it. It's got styles/theming, has dynamic layouting, and easy translating even for LTR languages. I like to get surprised... :) I like the qtopia plattform, as a plattform. But i don't think it's the way to build the nerdiest phone ever. Especially after so much was done right before in a completely different way. Qtopia AFAIK has it's own pim storage api. How would non-qt apps use them? Qtopia pim data are stored in a sqlite database. It is not a secret, nor is it proprietary or locked down. So your application has a choice whether to use some library that can access sqlite (Qtopia has that of course), or use the commandline interface to sqlite. Well, that is a long time after embedded evolution data server was declared the way to go on openmoko. And just my 2 Eurocents. I think this was a good decision. And the gsm stuff? Does this mean we now use the qtpia gsm stack? letting gsmd die would probably one of the better ideas. But i rather like so see it replaced by something similar but working instead of a set of qt apis. What is wrong with Qtopia's gsm stack? For the most part, it works. It doesn't crash, and can send and receive sms messages. and best of all, it's already written and working. If someone wrote/'ported' a wap stack, it would even do mms. AFAIK it's a qt-API not a daemon, server whatever. I assume this means the dialer app becomes part of the phone framework? Same concerns as for the PIM stuff. This makes gui apps infrastructure. Let's put it this way. Once I got the hardware, it took me less than week to have Qtopia up and sending/receiving sms's and making phone calls. I always wondered why no one took teyr code and put it into something like gsmd. *g* ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Click Feedback?
Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote: Conclusions: *) I will keep PA for the time being and activate module-suspend-on-idle *) You will be able to turn off the tap ;) Sounds great. -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: bluetooth proximity
W. B. Kranendonk wrote: Hi List, I wondered, can two bluetooth devices ping each other and find out their distance or relative speeds? Very unlikely. But some bluetooth devices can tell you the signal level of any peer. With that, you could aproximate the distance. Would be interesting if our device can do this. Not in the first place as some security tag to unlock my PC or house, but to use in a game-like setting. The first option would at least work in any case. One could make hint location based subsystem by detecting certain stationary bluetooth devices. Deamons that trigger events when a bloetooth device comes in range have already been implemented. -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: bluetooth proximity
AVee wrote: On Monday 16 June 2008 14:40, David Kepplinger wrote: Hi, I don't think that's feasible. To measure (with 2 devices) you need two very synchronous clocks and a very exact measurement. Because the signal travels with approximately the speed of light (about 300.000 km/s), an error of 1µs is an error of 300m. There are a lot of reasons why this is not feasible. Sorry. I tend to agree, however, things might change if you add gps. You'd might just transmit your own speed and location, although you will probably hate the precision of that without DGPS (which may never work on the Freerunner) and if may not work al that well indoors. But GPS could also solve the first problem you mentioned, it can provide the same clock to the two device. That leaves only the 'exact measurement' to be solved. It might work, but the precision will probably still be far to low to be useable for anything. I don't think so. What you get is effectively something like DGPS. Both receivers (while being near each other) receive the same skew/offset. Both will have wrong readings for the absolute position. But the relative position should be extremely high. (As high as DGPS can get) At least in theory. DGPS works just this way with the difference that with DGPS one receiver is stationary and propagates a correction signal to all receivers nearby. -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: bluetooth proximity
W. B. Kranendonk wrote: And, on a side note... How impact proof will the phone be, might she try throwing her spear? :-P The weakest link is the screen. :p -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS
Francesco Cat wrote: the FreeRunner will have a true GPS integrated, not only an AGPS system, wouldn't it? Not only AGPS!? Don't understand you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGPS AGPS is GPS plus A. Because I was given the address of this flyer: http://www.pulster.de/info/pdas/openmoko/freerunner-flyer.pdf and I hope it is just out-dated I hope it is right. -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Vote! Zimbra Mobile on the Openmoko
Joseph Reeves wrote: Dear all, I'd like to bring this poll to your attention: http://www.zimbra.com/forums/zimbrame-j2me-client/12642-vote-phones-zimbra-j2me-client.html Sorry, nobody wants this on a smartphone. Why implement features that we 100% need on the platform anyways. And you have seen that they are talking about J2ME?.. Zimbra allows access via standard network protocols (imap/smtp/CalDAV). All of them work with evolution. (or other pim and mail solutions for that matter) Let's just add sync support for these in the calendar app (the qtopia one probably already have this...) and build a frickin mail app. Zimbras contacs sharing is a bit stupid. Let's hope they come up with a better idea than up and downloading .csv files. :( Like LDAP for example, which eveyone sane uses. Or someone hacks together a .csv sync thingie for eds. *g* -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Vote! Zimbra Mobile on the Openmoko
Am 24.06.2008 um 19:07 schrieb arne anka: Sorry, nobody wants this on a smartphone. the replies to the op suggest otherwise. Wisdom of the masses. if everything zimbra wants is a sufficient number of votes and they do the porting themselves -- why not? it broadens the number of available applications and thus the choice. and choice is a large part of what makes foos so appealing, imho ... Choice!? Should'nt Openmoko have a mail client and PIM with sync for everyone anyways? Before someone wastes time on a j2me solution for one single service? There is not much choice right now. And you have seen that they are talking about J2ME? yes. why not? if they do ports for several platforms they hardly will do it with every single language/toolkit any platform supports, but see to minimizing the costs. and btw: j2me will allow a lot of already existing applications to be avalibale on the om as well ... Yea, and they are all crap. Thats at best a workaround for existing apps. Clearly not a solution for base apps. What they are offering is some locked in solution for some retarded symbian phones. I'm with you. We need a J2ME runtime, just for compatibility reasons. But not to give us a great PIM package. if you don't like it, don't use it. freedom of choice, see above. Im just trying to talk sense in you all. If Zimbra want's to do someting usefull they should offer a SyncML interface or some half decent conctacts sync protocol. Regards Tilman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FSO Image gets it right
Graeme Gregory wrote: Well I have seen the future and the future is FSO. For the first time I have been able to make and receive phone calls on a gta02 without hassle. GTK+ software could no do this, qtopia software cannot do this. Scaredycats gtk/phonekit/the-plan[tm] build works well for my gta01. I think this front end is the future. :) But i would like to see this work with the FSO (Do we really call it this way?) back ends... Is someone working on this? -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Best Image to run on the neo1973 these days?
Jay Vaughan wrote: Hi folks, What do you recommend I should run on my neo1973 these days, image- wise? I've been usually lagging way behind with keeping up to date with Scaredycats releases, but I'm aware there are other images out there making the rounds .. so what are your guys' experience with this so far? Is the ASU the one to run, for GPS and phone-call making, or is there something better? The scaredycat builds are the only one i find useful for my gta01. ASU looks promesing, but does not work at all on my gta01. And all other lack in features, tough they look all very promising too... You will probably have many choices for the next time. Pick the one you like and works for you. ;) Right now I'd be very happy if I could get GPS working, for good, and as well use the phone for calls .. mostly I've had it around to do development work, but it seems that the image makers out there might be pushing things in interesting territories already .. so how about it folks, got a recommendation? Both should be working on the scaredycat builds. But with in the future probably obsolete backends (gpsd and gsmd). -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community Initiative GTK
Mike Doody wrote: On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 11:56 AM, Marcus Bauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 2008-06-27 at 17:27 +0200, Francesco Cat wrote: I must have missed something... Can you post some links to explain what are the future plans for the Software Stack? Will GTK not be present any more? Basically Openmoko has stopped the development of the GTK stack in order to start a new stack called ASU. There are some 10.000 developers for GTK who can start any time making software for the Neo while there are very few developers for ASU, maybe 50. ASU is only used on the Neo whereas your GTK apps will run on the desktop or on the new MID devices like the ASUS eeePC right out of the box. Naturally for an open source developer it is a difference if the software will run on some hundred Neos or on some million PCs and MIDs. I'm confused what this ASU stack is that you are talking about? A Qtpia build based on X11. (Qtopia is usually framebuffer) Fancy enlightenment launcher and applications menu. Qtopia base apps. And some individual new apps only seen on this platform. i think based on enlightenment APIs. I see Gtk+ and Qtopia and Enlightenment (and X11). Which is what ASU is composed of. ;) So this ASU stack is only used on the Neo and nowhere else? More or less the other way. It only works well on Freerunner. If ASU is Qtopia or EFL, then I'm not so sure that's true... It's both. -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community Initiative GTK
Joachim Steiger wrote: Marcus Bauer wrote: Hello, I'm wondering if there is any interest in maintaining the GTK software stack? would be nice. e.g. take the last gtk-based ui apps, rip out all libgsmd and neod dependencies and start communicating with the new middleware from FSO. My idea too. I would like to see this... For what it is worth, the original GTK platform is nod dead. Attention just shifted away. And stability is ok as far as i can tell. Gsmd allegedly breaks standby. But works for me. Will see. I find the look and the UI design in general really well choosen. But it is not GTK what buys me. As long as GTK is there as a lib for compatibility. (which is AFAIK also the case with the other builds based on X11) But i would not mind if the Toolkit of the future would be EFL. What i like with the old Framework (GTK thingie) is that it is pretty much the same what other mobile communications systems use as a platform and riding on pretty well established tools used on everyday linux systems. GTK, GConf, D-Bus, (embedded) Evolution, X11, Avahi and probably some more like some gnome stuff... -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Inter-Freerunner Connectivity
Jay Vaughan wrote: Would you explain this a little more, I'm not sure what you mean. I am developing a soft-synth for OpenMoko, and I believe others are too. We would like to jam together, but don't have a mixer. So we route the audio of one phone to the other, and do 'soft mixing' on the master phone .. Sounds cool. Something completely new or something based on csound, supercollider or similar? I have seen the synth section of mini tamtam on olpc (using csound with python bindings) and was blown away. -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gps app
Yogiz wrote: On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:46:01 +0200 arne anka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i am not really into all this gps stuff (the freerunner will be my first device with gps), but maybe somebody finds this useful: http://vlkgps.bielyvlk.sk/ Thanks but this base seems to be already covered as far as I know. We have tangoGPS that uses OpenStreetMap as it's backend and a small status showing app for speed, current position and so on. Don't forget Navit. Which is a real vector based navigation software which works offline and with various map formats. Tangogps downloads tiles (images!) from the internet to show maps. And tangogps uses gpsd, which is supposed to become obsolete... Really, i like tangogps. But it is not the definitive answer to mapping and routing. I don't know if this java thing is any good, but if so, i see no reason not to have it. (Assuming the performance is good and we have a java runtime...) -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Inter-Freerunner Connectivity
Jay Vaughan wrote: Sounds cool. Something completely new or something based on csound, supercollider or similar? Something new, but supercollider and puredata on the Freerunner will work, I imagine, quite well. Pair it up with some nice MIDI controller and a custom cable, and you've got a synth/music-making platform worth pocketing! Finally! :) I say just two words. Acelerometers, Theremin. *g* Should be fun. I have seen the synth section of mini tamtam on olpc (using csound with python bindings) and was blown away. It doesn't take much to make music these days.. True. But i have to admit, i'm more fascinated by the process of creating sounds than actually making music by bashing on some 'pad'. :) What things like elektroplankton, Tenori-On, Kaos Pad can do is impressive. Technology is way beyond analog sound synthesis. But i like the beauty of synth patching. I would really like to do some experiments on this while on a train or so. :) Cant wait to see what is coming... -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: audio/video support
Al Johnson wrote: On Thursday 03 July 2008, Giorgio M. wrote: Does the Freerunner has an audio/video player integrated? which kind of audio and video files are supported? The answer probably depends on what you mean by 'integrated' ;-) There is a player in the GTK image that uses gstreamer and has a huge list of gstreamer plugins. The UI is somewhat limited at the moment, and last time I tried to play an MP3 it failed with a gstreamer error. That may be a result of using a daily snapshot rather than a release version though. It usually plays mp3 well. -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ancient hardware? - Software matters
I never had a phone for the last decade. Mostly out of protest against the ridiculous data rates and prices on GSM. And because all phones sucked. I had sworn me, when UMTS would comes out and the prices are ok, i will buy a phone. UMTS came, the prices where ok but the phones still sucked. And i did not feel i would miss much. And most important of all, i completely lost hope for all mobile phone software. There where no iterative improvements. Features came ant went with no regular pattern. Phones did not get better with time, they just stagnated. They did not even managed to put all features in which they had in earlier models. And bad software did never get fixed. The only way to overcome bad software was to by a new phone. It never felt right for me to give them money for theyr bad service. And all of them completely missed the point about having internet on a mobile device. The franticly searched for the killer app for UMTS but could not find any. But the killer app for phones was clearly IP (open communication) and a open software stack. Opensource was clearly the answer for all that. Then things happended. Openmoko and the iPhone came. The iPhone started a big fire under the fat and lazy ass of phone manufacturers. They are reminded that innovation is something that sells phones and makes customers happy. But i'm sure those who will not burn to death will not manage to stand up for the next time. Changes will happen slow. Its after all the mobile phones business. :) And there was Openmoko. There was never any doubt for me that this will be the right answer to a good and healthy software evolution and constant improvement for mobile phone software. So i'm here. I broke my oath to never buy a GSM only phone (Neo 1973). I was not able to make stable phone calls for month with my rather 1990ish new phone. But i was happy and i still am. Sure. The hardware could be better. But this is something the industry managed to do all the time. We need to make software a important part of phone development. This is where the industry (and subsequently the customer) needs help. This is where a bunch of hackers can make a big difference. I'm sure Openmoko started something important. The vastly successful way of software evolution and development which opensource provides will greatly improve all phones to come... I'm happy that Fic gives us this stepping stone to change the world. I gladly ignore some bad teeth of this horse. ;) Ajit Natarajan wrote: Hello, I've seen a number of remarks on this list that the hardware in the FR is ancient and this is the price of openness and freedom. I did a quick search for some of the parts: The Samsung 2442 SoC seems to date back to 2005. I got this from the revision history in the user manual [1]. The Antaris 4 GPS chip dates back to 2006. This is the from the 0635 datasheet revision history [2]. The Calypso GSM chip dates back to 2000. This is from the leaked hardware definition manual revision history [3]. The Accton 3236 WiFi chip dates back to 2006. This is from the ``2006.12'' at the end of the datasheet [4]. I haven't looked at the other chips. From the above, the GSM chip looks ancient. However, the other chips don't seem that old. And some recent devices are using these parts as well. For example, the RoverPC C6 introduced in December 2007 uses the Samsung 2442B at 300MHz. So, I don't understand the comments on ancient parts. What have we compromised on by choosing these parts? Thanks. Ajit [1] http://210.118.57.197/Products/Semiconductor/MobileSoC/ApplicationProcessor/ARM9Series/SC32442/um_s3c2442b_rev12.pdf [2] http://www.u-blox.com/products/Data_Sheets/ATR0630_35_SglChip_Data_Sheet(GPS.G4-X-06009).pdf [3] http://cryptome.org/ti-calypso2.pdf [4] http://www.accton.com/products/Datasheet/WM3236A.AQ.pdf ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: VMWare Freerunner Flash
Johan Badenhorst wrote: Hi guys, I was just wondering if anyone has flashed their Freerunners using VMWare Player on Windows and if that would even be possible? Using USB devices attached to the host cmputer usually works. As far as i know. -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Different hardware in the future?
Ole Kliemann wrote: Hi everyone! I'd first like to say how excited I am about the Freerunner. I am an enthusiastic linux user who likes to customize every aspect to create a workflow that just fits. So a customizable phone is what I have been looking for. A big thanks to all involved in the project, you are doing something important. It is about time that man reclaims machine. But now my question: As I understand, the software right now is not fully evolved. I would be interested in experimenting and testing, but I also would like to have a fully functional phone in the long run. It is already pretty functional, but probably not fully. It works, but some featueres still evolve (GPS,mapping,motion sensor stuff,management of wlan/networking) and some software may change. (The whole multiple subsystems shebang) See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Latest_Images Especially http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2008/06/28/gtk-asu-fso-tmtla/ Moving target... ;) But you will be able to make calls send sms and so. Will I have one with the Freerunner once the software development reached a certain stage? Or will there be another hardware iteration then, eventually making it necessary to change the hardware? No I read, it is intended for end-users but not yet quite end-user-capable. I wasn't sure whether this is a question of software only, or one of hardware too. Software only. Freerunner is supposed to be the final design. -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: anyone know when the phones are actually shipping within the US?
Come on. Could you please all stop abusing this mailing list to track your orders? What do _we_ have to do with your order? Jon Pomeroy wrote: Vinc and Ian, When did you get email for OM? I ordered Thursday and only received a confirmation of my order. Nothing about when shipping would start or UPS notification. Did you have to do any prompting to get this info? Thanks, -Jon On Mon, 2008-07-07 at 09:46 -0700, ian douglas wrote: They gave me no estimation on my order (1843) but said I'd get an Email from UPS when our package is in transit. -id Vinc Duran wrote: I got a nice mail from openmoko: Our warehouse in Fremont, CA will be back to work on Monday (7/7) and start shipping process. Your order number should be ready to ship by Tuesday. Thanks. My order number is 1562. If I read a lot into the email I might conclude order counts. I asked about tracking numbers too but no word on that. V On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 11:44 PM, ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey all, Does anyone know when the phones are shipping in the US? One source I've read say they'll ship tomorrow, Monday July 7th, but I'm curious if they're shipping in the order they were bought? Will we get a follow-up Email with a shipping/tracking number? I'm trying to schedule a meet-and-geek for the Los Angeles group that coordinated for a bulk purchase, but without any firm expectation of when the phones will be in, it's hard to tell everyone when to show up to get their phones. Thanks, Ian Douglas ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS
How accurate does this position information have to be? With my own telephone numer, i could at least find out in which country i am. Not so good for america, russia and brazil. But in smaller countries, you culd get a ±500km position. Al Johnson wrote: Gets my location wrong by 100 miles or so. Other GeoIP services put me in other locations similar distances away. The BBC has had complaints from people reported as being in a different country because it blocks them from using the download service. Perhaps this only affects a minority, so it's another option to add to the list. If we have multiple sources we can see if they agree. On Monday 07 July 2008, Francesco Cat wrote: Another thing that might help: If the FR is connected to any network one should also be able to use IP Locator services like http://whatismyipaddress.com/ to get another extimation of the location of FR. They are usually quite accurate. Would this help? 2008/7/7 Yogiz [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 15:37:08 +0100 Al Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you for the testing. Keep doing the good work. Hopefully this idea can solve the long fix problem. First stab uses the example perl functions from ublox for generating the aid-ini data, replacing their hardcoded x,y,z with values for my location. The copyright notice on the example code says you can't do anything with it without permission so I can't give you the script, but I can tell you how to reproduce it ;-) Get the AssistNow online client application note from: http://people.openmoko.org/matt_hsu/ImplementationAssistNowServerAndClie nt(GPS.G4-SW-05017-C).pdf Create a new script aid-ini.pl and start with: #!/usr/bin/perl print(clientdata_prepare()); Go to section B - Sample Server implementation and append subroutines clientdata_prepare and ubx_checksum to aid-ini.pl You need to replace the $posx, $posy and $posz values in clientdata_prepare with some that match your location. These are ECEF coordinated in m. There's an explanation of the calculation method in: http://www.u-blox.com/customersupport/docs/GPS.G1-X-6.pdf Alternatively you can use the attached spreadsheet if it survives the list. Just replace the lat and lon with values for your location. You probably want to change the time accuracy to reflect the accuracy of the Freerunner clock, and possibly the accuracy of your location estimate. Now copy the script to somewhere suitable on the Freerunner and make it executable. I'm using /usr/local/bin. You need to install perl if you don't have it already: opkg install perl Switch on the GPS then run the script: /usr/local/bin/aid-ini.pl /dev/ttySAC1 If you cat /dev/ttySAC1 you should be able to see it using the current time according to your Freerunner. TangoGPS makes it easier to see what it's doing. In the only test I've managed so far it got a fix with a poor view of the sky, while my Garmin Geko was still struggling to see 3 sats. It wasn't quick, but it was better than the Garmin. It would be interesting if you could try 2 units side by side, one with aid-ini and one without, to see if it really makes a difference or if I was just lucky. I'll try to get some more testing in, but the weather isn't good here, and I don't want to get my new toy wet ;-) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko is the only 100% F/OSS-based Linux smartphone project
Russell Sears wrote: Paul Wouters wrote: This is exactly what Motorola does. It is the 60 seconds of working phone with openezx. GPLv3 doesn't say anything about how the protection is implemented, though it does say continued functioning, so I think they've covered this loophole. :) Once motorola (or whoever) ships the phone with a GPLv3 kernel on it, they have to obey this clause. Yes, but there will never be a GPLv3 linux kernel. :) -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: T-Mobile with ASU on GTA01?
Yaroslav Halchenko wrote: They are paying the Trolltech folks now, and they are also paying EFL developers. Yes, there is a cool application for connecting the N800 to your car electronics and see into the engine management. Which one is that? (just googled up carman: http://openbossa.indt.org/carman/index.html, this one?) Hehe, was just researching how much effort it would be to port to openmoko. Does not look too bad. It runs python and uses gtk or efl as frameworks. It heavily uses hildon stuff, but mot of them should be easily replaceable. I'm not going to do this in the next time. But it seems doable. What i did not check yet is how much their interface code depends on screen resolution. I expect very much. But regarding the small screen on openmoko, some redesign seems a good idea anyways... The nice thing would be that openmoko could provide accelerometer data and gps out of the box... -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
