Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Friday 13 June 2008 21:22:12 Ben Burdette wrote: What would be cool would be a QVGA-to-VGA transition effect where a 'blurry' QVGA app comes into focus as you transition to VGA mode. So suppose you are in an application selection screen, you select an application and it 'zooms' to the app window - in QVGA mode. But the app you selected is marked as a VGA app, so after the zooming happens, there is a fade from the QVGA appearance of the app (actually drawn in VGA now) to the VGA appearance. Interesting proposal.. Might not be possible due to artifacts or noise when switching between the two modes, but it would be a leet hack :) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 16:40:08 +0100 Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On 10 Jun 2008, at 02:17, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: browsing full web pages scrammed into a 2.8 screen as many have suggested, is really... pushing such a tiny screen far beyond its usefulness. web pages are designed for 14 or 17 screens or so. squeezing them down into 2.8 is nigh madness. it's possible - but vga vs qvga there isn't the factor (imho) :) I'm sorry, Carsten, but this just makes me think you're nuts. Um, I mean, eccentric. I mean, I know you know loads more about this sort of thing than I do, but mobile phone web-browsers are absolutely standard these days. never said otherwise but the screen is physically small. very. put it at a normal usage distance and it covers a small fraction of the field of view a standard desktop screen does. web pages are normally designed for the field of view of a desktop screen. either you play zooming games to squeeze it down, or scrolling, or play re-formatting games. however you look at it - you won't get close to the same experience. True...someone mentioned a month view for a calendar with a meaningful amount of content as a use case for a higher resolution screen, but on a three-inch display, you're not getting any significant amount of data across without a magnifying glass. Using a terminal emulator would be far more pleasant with the higher resolution screen, but you're not going to get an 80x25 window in there; with a 640x480 display plus an on-screen keyboard, you're going to have either an 80x30 or so window in portrait mode and an unreadable font, or you're going to get about 80x15 in landscape. Video's going to scale anyway (which says more about processor / gpu issues than about acceptable quality). Really, viewing photos is the only thing that will suffer significantly. This isn't as much of an issue since the Freerunner doesn't have a camera. But the GTA04 probably will, and the QVGA might be somewhat annoying. Since the alternative to using QVGA is using VGA with a faster GPU and processor, and this is a phone that runs on batteries, I'm inclined to encourage the use of QVGA on future Openmoko phones. I have a phone from 2002 with a battery that used to last a week; it annoys me to deal with much less than that. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
True...someone mentioned a month view for a calendar with a meaningful amount of content as a use case for a higher resolution screen, but on a three-inch display, you're not getting any significant amount of data across without a magnifying glass. I'm feeling reminded of those creditcard sized poket calendars we have in germany. on those you have got the calendar information of a whole year + the Information of hollidays and other special days. land everything is readable and pretty clear to read. so the size is not the problem. but rather the resollution as well as the clearness of the display. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
2008/6/13 enaut [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I'm feeling reminded of those creditcard sized poket calendars we have in germany. on those you have got the calendar information of a whole year + the Information of hollidays and other special days. land everything is readable and pretty clear to read. so the size is not the problem. but rather the resollution as well as the clearness of the display. Those include no more text than numbers for the date. Which you can do with qvga as well, I am certain, if it's one month. And you can also include colors to indicate there's an event on that day, or it's a holiday, or whatnot -- none of which requires a larger display. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Chris Write wrote: Using a terminal emulator would be far more pleasant with the higher resolution screen, but you're not going to get an 80x25 window in there; with a 640x480 display plus an on-screen keyboard, you're going to have either an 80x30 or so window in portrait mode and an unreadable font, or you're going to get about 80x15 in landscape. This is not correct. The pssh application for a Palm Treo can produce a 80x25 terminal emulator with a full on-screen keyboard. It is hard to read, but definately usable. I use it daily (although almost always without the on-screen keyboard - then you get 80x47). The Treo's screen is only 320x320, so the Freerunner should be able to produce a 80x25 portrait window with on-screen keyboard and a fairly nice font. To those who argue that the ~150 DPI resolution one would get with QVGA on the '03 is nearly indistiguishable from the VGA resolution on a 2.8 screen I ask: When was the last time you saw a 150 DPI laser printer? Why are they so hard to find? Ken Young ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
What hasn't been entirely clear to me in this discussion is whether, with the current VGA screen, we are able to enter a QVGA mode and run as quickly as with a true QVGA screen. If that is the case, then why not use the QVGA for some things, like application selection, the phone dialer, or games, and then use VGA for things like terminals, email, web browsing? It would require a seamless transition on a per-application basis. Perhaps you could specify whether a given app runs in VGA or QVGA on a configuration screen someplace. You get the benefit here of apps being QVGA-ready for a time when openmoko is installed on a QGA-only phone. One complication would arise with applications that require different modes sharing the same screen. If our interface is purely one app at a time using the whole screen, then its not really a problem. Another difficulty would be transitioning between modes in a seamless way. If there are compute intensive effects present in QVGA mode, then those would have to be deactivated in VGA, then reactivated on the way back. There may be significant technical barriers to this approach, don't know. Also, transitioning between flashy QVGA and stolid VGA might be kind of jarring to the user. Maybe QVGA would be the default, and users that want to make the tradeoff can go in and reconfigure. Certain apps might be VGA by default, like a photo viewer. What would be cool would be a QVGA-to-VGA transition effect where a 'blurry' QVGA app comes into focus as you transition to VGA mode. So suppose you are in an application selection screen, you select an application and it 'zooms' to the app window - in QVGA mode. But the app you selected is marked as a VGA app, so after the zooming happens, there is a fade from the QVGA appearance of the app (actually drawn in VGA now) to the VGA appearance. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Am Fr 13. Juni 2008 schrieb Chris Wright: Since the alternative to using QVGA is using VGA with a faster GPU and processor, One last time: ...OR USING VGA IN QVGA MODE WITH SAME PROCESSOR, AND SWITCH TO VGA WHENEVER YOU NEED THIS RESOLUTION. It's all about nothing else than just saving some 5 bucks on the screen (which probably will not apply whenever this comes to reality, because you have to buy QVGA-screens from antiquities collectors then), and the allegedly *better* (huh?) quality of QVGA when compared to a VGA in QVGA-mode. All of this are moot arguments!!! and this is a phone that runs on batteries, I'm inclined to encourage the use of QVGA on future Openmoko phones. And WTF is the rationale behind this??? You're suggesting we should use slower cpu for saving battery or what? Yeah our GTA04 will probably have 8bit cpu and a 7-segment display, but no screen at all, and 4000h of standby time. (btw: standby isn't related to cpu-power-consumption at all) I have a phone from 2002 with a battery that used to last a week; it annoys me to deal with much less than that. Don't ask what I'm annoyed of! Aaahrg, really sorry, but [ignore thread] now (last one of hw-dev leaving pointless discussion). /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
+1 to Joerg, but don't worry a lot of this speculation garbage about Freerunner or succesors capabilities and what have to do and what not will die onces the freerunner is aviable and used by a miriad of volunters. Maybe will be another kind of speculation garbage but not this one :). The idea of a 7 segment liquid cristal screen as an usb lcd can be take in count for very critical battery applications that only need the hardware capabilites and some light feedback. --- El vie, 13/6/08, Joerg Reisenweber [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: De: Joerg Reisenweber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!) Para: community@lists.openmoko.org CC: Chris Wright [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: viernes, 13 junio, 2008 9:52 Am Fr 13. Juni 2008 schrieb Chris Wright: Since the alternative to using QVGA is using VGA with a faster GPU and processor, One last time: ...OR USING VGA IN QVGA MODE WITH SAME PROCESSOR, AND SWITCH TO VGA WHENEVER YOU NEED THIS RESOLUTION. It's all about nothing else than just saving some 5 bucks on the screen (which probably will not apply whenever this comes to reality, because you have to buy QVGA-screens from antiquities collectors then), and the allegedly *better* (huh?) quality of QVGA when compared to a VGA in QVGA-mode. All of this are moot arguments!!! and this is a phone that runs on batteries, I'm inclined to encourage the use of QVGA on future Openmoko phones. And WTF is the rationale behind this??? You're suggesting we should use slower cpu for saving battery or what? Yeah our GTA04 will probably have 8bit cpu and a 7-segment display, but no screen at all, and 4000h of standby time. (btw: standby isn't related to cpu-power-consumption at all) I have a phone from 2002 with a battery that used to last a week; it annoys me to deal with much less than that. Don't ask what I'm annoyed of! Aaahrg, really sorry, but [ignore thread] now (last one of hw-dev leaving pointless discussion). /j___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community __ Enviado desde Correo Yahoo! La bandeja de entrada más inteligente. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Is there an 'official' designation of the target market for the GTA03? i.e., freerunner is geeks/early adopters BillK ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:21:25 +0800 W.Kenworthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Is there an 'official' designation of the target market for the GTA03? i.e., freerunner is geeks/early adopters don't know. there is only right now what the state of gta03 currently is in terms of what the hardware side is working on for drivers and devices etc. like anything, it can be subject to change. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: No, I haven't. Could you post a screenshot of how it looks? Maybe if I see it I can be convinced, I'm at least that open minded. can't as i did it years ago on my ipaq. but it's the same font as here: http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/Tech/x11fonts.html see the 4x8 font at the top. bdf downloadable and usable. I guess it's not that bad. It's not bad enough to affect a purchasing decision alone so long as I only have to see it in the terminal. If the whole phone interface will be in that font, then I wouldn't buy it. I did not buy the otherwise wonderful Siemans M55 when it was new because of its terrible font. But then again, I'm the kind of person who has closed a bank account and switched banks because my current bank was blocking Firefox access to online banking. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
2008/6/11 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: if the vocal group here are to be accounted for going to these screens would be utterly bad and we should accept nothing less than vga so wvga (800x480) is the only way up into the future. So you argue to put a lesser screen on the device now, so that you can have a lesser upgrade in the future? That is not the type of company that I want to deal with. Give us what is possible now, now. ouch. poor cpu. Other than price, what are the constraints about using a more powerful CPU? And what is the price hit? If we are talking about having four times the screen resolution for an additional 30% of the price of the device, then I say that is worth it. The target market for this phone will buy it almost regardless of price. That is not to say that price is not important (it is) but it should be more flexible than the hardware. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 09:38:59 +0200 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: 2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: No, I haven't. Could you post a screenshot of how it looks? Maybe if I see it I can be convinced, I'm at least that open minded. can't as i did it years ago on my ipaq. but it's the same font as here: http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/Tech/x11fonts.html see the 4x8 font at the top. bdf downloadable and usable. I guess it's not that bad. It's not bad enough to affect a purchasing decision alone so long as I only have to see it in the terminal. If the whole phone interface will be in that font, then I wouldn't buy it. I did not buy the otherwise wonderful Siemans M55 when it was new because of its terrible font. But then again, I'm the kind of person who has closed a bank account and switched banks because my current bank was blocking Firefox access to online banking. hahah! no - that'd be nasty used everywhere, but for a terminal, when you need it, it's a good way to get 80x24 on qvga (landscape). of course its not beautiful :) -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
2008/6/11 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: if the vocal group here are to be accounted for going to these screens would be utterly bad and we should accept nothing less than vga so wvga (800x480) is the only way up into the future. So you argue to put a lesser screen on the device now, so that you can have a lesser upgrade in the future? That is not the type of company that I want to deal with. Give us what is possible now, now. i didn't say that. you have to remember not everything is possible. we make compromises all the time. but you are saving that the only options we have for you to be happy is vga or higher. no matter what. even if we make a smaller phone? No, I am not saying VGA or nothing. But you post looked to me like you are worried about how to upgrade in the future, and that upgrading would be easier for the manufacturer if the current hardware is less. If that is not what you are saying, then you can disregard my misunderstanding :) ouch. poor cpu. Other than price, what are the constraints about using a more powerful CPU? And what is the price hit? If we are talking about having four times the screen resolution for an additional 30% of the price of the device, then I say that is worth it. The target market for this phone will buy it almost regardless of price. That is not to say that price is not important (it is) but it should be more flexible than the hardware. right now - constraints vary from soc's we can actually buy in volume to being open (eg nvidia have an soc... do we want that along with the closed graphics system?), to just development time. a new soc means a whole lot of kernel work and driver work normally - unless we stick to the kernel provided by the vendor, and that means you have a kernel behind many versions. we want to bring things to market as soon as we can. i'd love to see us improve our soc, but that just takes time and development. that's no promises one way or another or indications on whats going on - it's just where things are right now. :) I see. Thanks. I appreciate that the development of these devices is much more complicated than it looks from here. Which is why I ask. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 09:48:10 +0200 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: 2008/6/11 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: if the vocal group here are to be accounted for going to these screens would be utterly bad and we should accept nothing less than vga so wvga (800x480) is the only way up into the future. So you argue to put a lesser screen on the device now, so that you can have a lesser upgrade in the future? That is not the type of company that I want to deal with. Give us what is possible now, now. i didn't say that. you have to remember not everything is possible. we make compromises all the time. but you are saving that the only options we have for you to be happy is vga or higher. no matter what. even if we make a smaller phone? some people want big phones, some want small. we might have multiple products and you choose the one that is best for you. some may go for the smaller device that weight less, uses less pocket space and has a low-res small screen, some may go for one that is the size of an n800 with a massive high-res screen. these phones are not necessarily a linear progression from 1st to 2nd to 3rd version. some may be, some may not be. ouch. poor cpu. Other than price, what are the constraints about using a more powerful CPU? And what is the price hit? If we are talking about having four times the screen resolution for an additional 30% of the price of the device, then I say that is worth it. The target market for this phone will buy it almost regardless of price. That is not to say that price is not important (it is) but it should be more flexible than the hardware. right now - constraints vary from soc's we can actually buy in volume to being open (eg nvidia have an soc... do we want that along with the closed graphics system?), to just development time. a new soc means a whole lot of kernel work and driver work normally - unless we stick to the kernel provided by the vendor, and that means you have a kernel behind many versions. we want to bring things to market as soon as we can. i'd love to see us improve our soc, but that just takes time and development. that's no promises one way or another or indications on whats going on - it's just where things are right now. :) -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: even widescreen VGA, like the PSP?). Stroller. it will be better - of course. what' i'm baffled about is why all of a sudden here a lot of excellent vision gifted people turn up, whereas in real life i never see them... :) Ok, time to clear up an obvious and totally incorrect assumption, higher resolution does not mean small fonts that are hard to read. It means that you have clearer, sharper fonts at the dpi you find comfortable reading at. In other words a VGA screen is just better, better for people with good eyesight and _much_ better for people with poor eyesight. I'd always go for a higher resolution every time. Now some of you people out there may run windows on your desktop and only being able to reasonably change dpi between two settings (maybe this is different in Vista) means that a high resolution often does mean small fonts on the screen, some can't go to 120 dpi because maybe the apps they use don't support (yes that used to be quite common). On Linux this is not a problem as dpi is entirely variable and changing it doesn't break applications. In that case the dpi is a simple personal preference and on higher res screens everything is sharper and easier to to read, reducing eye strain and so on. For a small device where we will be trying to read things that are already small due to physical screen size a high res is a must to make that as comfortable as possible. VGA will produce a much better user experience than QVGA and be a lot easier on everyone's eyes. To summarise we have 3 orthogonal concerns: 1. Screen dimensions - fixed by manufacturer, relates to device target users 2. Screen resolution - fixed by manufacturer, higher is better for all tasks that require screen reading, for movies it really doesn't matter so much 3. DPI - user specified to reach a compromise between readability and effective use of screen real estate. Any, that's my take on things, I vote VGA ;-) Jamie ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 07:57:13AM +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote: the day the design mockups for the ui i see stop having alpha transparency is the day i make this unimportant. until that day, your i don't care about this is the kind of opinion that i also am not interested in, because i am being shown ui designs hat REQUIRE it in the long run between windows, and in the short term is being faked with software within windows. i am just trying to make something possible that is being requested, and has been for a long time. not just say i don't care. So how do we go about persuading _those_ people that such high-effort, low-return UI designs are a bad thing? Who should be in this particular conversation, so that we don't put you in the position of fending off people on both sides? (When I speak of low return, I mean low return in terms of usability -- you don't make user interfaces more usable by adding more transparency, more rounded corners, and drop shadows, particularly on restricted-size interfaces.) Hugo. -- === Hugo Mills: [EMAIL PROTECTED] carfax.org.uk | darksatanic.net | lug.org.uk === PGP key: 515C238D from wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net or http://www.carfax.org.uk --- There's many a slip 'twixt wicket-keeper and gully. --- signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 07:57:13AM +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote: the day the design mockups for the ui i see stop having alpha transparency is the day i make this unimportant. until that day, your i don't care about this is the kind of opinion that i also am not interested in, because i am being shown ui designs hat REQUIRE it in the long run between windows, and in the short term is being faked with software within windows. i am just trying to make something possible that is being requested, and has been for a long time. not just say i don't care. The problem isn't that transparency effects, and other CPU/GPU intensitve UI enhancements, are unimportant. On a handheld device they *are* important.They make the device worse.It is important to resist the push to add eye-candy to a handheld device, because every CPU/GPU cycle spent animating an icon, or making a window translucent, eats some of the energy stored in your battery, and reduces the amount of useful work which can be done between recharges. Ken Young ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Who are these weird people that think window transparency on an underpowered phone is a good idea?! What functionality does THAT give us? I'd like to see some justification, if not from you then from whoever is responsible for these ideas. I've lived without window transparancy on all my PCs and handhelds up to now. I've seen it on my brother's Vista PC and it was kind of funny for all of five minutes. Ortwin On 6/11/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 01:07:40 +0200 Joerg Reisenweber [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Am Di 10. Juni 2008 schrieb Carsten Haitzler: On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 17:16:06 +0800 Wilkinson, Alex [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: 0n Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 01:43:08PM +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote: we are in a world where to get gfx support to run such high resolutions means we need to have closed drivers. and that is not Curious, why is that ? graphics is the most intensive thing your device is likely to do in terms of processing. if you want soft drop shadows, alpha blending (and trust me - everyone is drooling for it out there - the iphone is doing it already) the No, I won't trust you here! I give a SH*T on soft shadows, even on my desktop. I switch off animation because I think it's annoying waste of time to see the same movie over and over. Alpha blending? Eeew! Useless. the day the design mockups for the ui i see stop having alpha transparency is the day i make this unimportant. until that day, your i don't care about this is the kind of opinion that i also am not interested in, because i am being shown ui designs hat REQUIRE it in the long run between windows, and in the short term is being faked with software within windows. i am just trying to make something possible that is being requested, and has been for a long time. not just say i don't care. Every single argument been mentioned multiple times here. Redundance. GTA03 has VGA - period! things can change - unlikely to be, but can. i have said it many times already. 04 even better i'd bet on it. 05 virtually no-one even thinking of now, not to mention sourceability of parts when it's coming to real. And now I'm definitely stopping to feed this tro.. er, thread, which btw seems nobody is looking on the weird subject any more :-/ ETX jOERG -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 9:04 AM, Ken Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 07:57:13AM +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote: the day the design mockups for the ui i see stop having alpha transparency is the day i make this unimportant. until that day, your i don't care about this is the kind of opinion that i also am not interested in, because i am being shown ui designs hat REQUIRE it in the long run between windows, and in the short term is being faked with software within windows. i am just trying to make something possible that is being requested, and has been for a long time. not just say i don't care. The problem isn't that transparency effects, and other CPU/GPU intensitve UI enhancements, are unimportant. On a handheld device they *are* important.They make the device worse.It is important to resist the push to add eye-candy to a handheld device, because every CPU/GPU cycle spent animating an icon, or making a window translucent, eats some of the energy stored in your battery, and reduces the amount of useful work which can be done between recharges. I disagree with such categorical statements. There is a trade-off between usability and performance (e.g. user performance and device performance). The optimal value is in between, dependent on both user and system capabilities. The iPhone is success *because* of its heavy bias for user performance over system performance. The hardware isn't novel, but the UI is, and it makes all the difference. Example: Shadows on windows on Mac OS X --- the shadows indicate, better than any titlebar hilight ever will, what window has focus. Using the brain's innate understanding of depth provides user-side hardware acceleration for this activity. Example: Desktop switcher animation --- when switching virtual desktops, having the windows slide off to the appropriate side is critical for building a spatial model in the user's mind. http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/finder.ars/2 Geeks will probably want a different set of trade-offs between usability performance, but those are best done as customizations on an expert platform. One that we hope that OM will become. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 20:43:22 -0700 Dave O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: I said this in the channel but you weren't there. We should be going forward with specs, not backward. By the time the next revisions come there'll be a whole new generation of hardware so the freerunner will then be lagging even more. Someone mentioned getting a faster cpu and my 2c are that I think that that's a much better option. But it sounds like you've already made the decision. i'd love a better cpu - better memory bus and much more. right now the only thing we have is gta03 - same cpu as freerunner etc etc. just different gsm subsystem (2g/edge) and no glamo (dumb 2442 fb), new case, added camera. don't get me wrong - i've been running high res as long as i have been able to. i went to 1600x1200 as soon as mu hardware could. i have insisted on laptops with 1600x1200 or higher - 1920x1200 ones too. i use tiny fonts and high dpi screens. i personally love high resolution, but i have noticed a tendency to be the only one in the room who can read it. i'd love an 800x480 300dpi screen - they exist. i was playing with a phone last week with one on it. but practical factors may just not allow it. if you wish to find a reliable supplier for us of such hardware at a good price, then go for it, but practical product concerns may mean it just can't happen. same with cpu speeds and graphics. we are in a world where to get gfx support to run such high resolutions means we need to have closed drivers. and that is not somewhere where we are going. we make compromises. you won't get the best of components in every possible way due to the nature of what is being done here. we try where we can, but somewhere compromises will need to be made. what people have been saying here is that they have excellent eyesight and can see a tin 2.8 vga screen well enough to make use of it. like really see the difference and be able to do things with that res that would be not possible, impractical or painful otherwise. i've fairly amazed at the number of people saying their eyesight is so good as it is in stark contrast to my experience over the years, but ok - i'll take it for what it is. i didn't know how many people really could see the difference AND make use of it. i'm surprised. On Tue, 2008-06-10 at 08:52 +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:43:51 +0200 Peter Kraker [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: not going to happen - that's 2 product runs. expensive to maintain. gta03 is vga right now - unless there is a very big push to qvga. it is possible to go, and not hard at all. it would save costs on hardware, but it won't change at this stage. but beyond gta03 it's an open book and who knows - we may likely pull out a lower res screen. it is in fact very likely something will be a lower res in later products as there is just so much more choice there below vga. How painfull would it be, to sell GTA03 with QVGA and GTA03V version with VGA screen, if those two are indeed very similar ? I'm certain there are enough of us geeks ready to give up some glitter for pixels. Regards Peter Kraker Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) pravi: On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 08:56:22 +0800 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 18:58:15 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: we could just not ever even ask you guys and you get what you are given. too bad. no input at all. i've opened up the floor for input - but i'm trying to dig specific things out of it - not things that smell ofi just want higher specs. or keeping up with the joneses. i want real use case scenarios that make real sense. :) This discussion starts to become quite boring. Isn't a single potential customer who says I want it and I am willing to pay for it enough? There have been several here on this list, if I remember correctly who expressed exactly that. no. it is absolutely not enough. why? i am asked by product management to do things that are just not possible in vga (to do sanely/fast). they come first. you users come second. in the end if product management want X they get X. and if for X to happen we go QVGA, then so be it. you guys lose. i need a very very very strong argument against going to qvga - and that means product management need to drop a feature. note - i am talking hypothetically. i don't want to discuss vga as a product management feature - not if you like it or not, or it looks pretty. i am looking for hard cold technical facts. what does it stop being possible i know: 1. u may need to scroll more 2. viewing of images/data that just have more pixel content will need to be zoomed out and have less display fidelity 3. some things requiring text displays like
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Hi Carsten I suppose you passion to be in favor of qvga has to have an strong reason. You have asked to us why be prefer vga vs qvga and I thing this long long thread can be resumed as because is better (isolating it to resolution question only) I propose you to the answer the reverse question and please be as truefull as you can. You considerer than downgrade the resolution will improve so much the perfomance of the hole system to justify it? if so, as long as this decision is only concern to GTA03 (the camera version of GTA02 to simplify) I will change my mind and advocate for a qvga version, and in the marketing view it well still make sense, one version to professional use with no camera and more res to console/spectrometer/and other remote control funny stuff and other more phone like with camera able to do all the above but not so clean so more for hobbyist than profesionals, of for other needs, mean while booth can coexist and costumer is able to choose it will be more than pretty. But if this decision concern GTA04 and beyond ,or gta03 will replace gta02, I will not agree(LOL, I said it like I have some influence in openmoko decisions) because we must go forward and increase specs (and performance), --- El mar, 10/6/08, Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: De: Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!) Para: List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org CC: Dave O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: martes, 10 junio, 2008 7:43 On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 20:43:22 -0700 Dave O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: I said this in the channel but you weren't there. We should be going forward with specs, not backward. By the time the next revisions come there'll be a whole new generation of hardware so the freerunner will then be lagging even more. Someone mentioned getting a faster cpu and my 2c are that I think that that's a much better option. But it sounds like you've already made the decision. i'd love a better cpu - better memory bus and much more. right now the only thing we have is gta03 - same cpu as freerunner etc etc. just different gsm subsystem (2g/edge) and no glamo (dumb 2442 fb), new case, added camera. don't get me wrong - i've been running high res as long as i have been able to. i went to 1600x1200 as soon as mu hardware could. i have insisted on laptops with 1600x1200 or higher - 1920x1200 ones too. i use tiny fonts and high dpi screens. i personally love high resolution, but i have noticed a tendency to be the only one in the room who can read it. i'd love an 800x480 300dpi screen - they exist. i was playing with a phone last week with one on it. but practical factors may just not allow it. if you wish to find a reliable supplier for us of such hardware at a good price, then go for it, but practical product concerns may mean it just can't happen. same with cpu speeds and graphics. we are in a world where to get gfx support to run such high resolutions means we need to have closed drivers. and that is not somewhere where we are going. we make compromises. you won't get the best of components in every possible way due to the nature of what is being done here. we try where we can, but somewhere compromises will need to be made. what people have been saying here is that they have excellent eyesight and can see a tin 2.8 vga screen well enough to make use of it. like really see the difference and be able to do things with that res that would be not possible, impractical or painful otherwise. i've fairly amazed at the number of people saying their eyesight is so good as it is in stark contrast to my experience over the years, but ok - i'll take it for what it is. i didn't know how many people really could see the difference AND make use of it. i'm surprised. On Tue, 2008-06-10 at 08:52 +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:43:51 +0200 Peter Kraker [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: not going to happen - that's 2 product runs. expensive to maintain. gta03 is vga right now - unless there is a very big push to qvga. it is possible to go, and not hard at all. it would save costs on hardware, but it won't change at this stage. but beyond gta03 it's an open book and who knows - we may likely pull out a lower res screen. it is in fact very likely something will be a lower res in later products as there is just so much more choice there below vga. How painfull would it be, to sell GTA03 with QVGA and GTA03V version with VGA screen, if those two are indeed very similar ? I'm certain there are enough of us geeks ready to give up some glitter for pixels. Regards Peter Kraker Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) pravi: On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 08:56:22 +0800 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
0n Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 01:43:08PM +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote: we are in a world where to get gfx support to run such high resolutions means we need to have closed drivers. and that is not Curious, why is that ? -aW IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of the Australian Defence Organisation and is subject to the jurisdiction of section 70 of the CRIMES ACT 1914. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact the sender and delete the email. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 09:10:20 + (GMT) David Samblas Martinez [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Hi Carsten I suppose you passion to be in favor of qvga has to have an strong reason. You have asked to us why be prefer vga vs qvga and I thing this long long thread can be resumed as because is better (isolating it to resolution question only) I propose you to the answer the reverse question and please be as truefull as you can. You considerer than downgrade the resolution will improve so much the perfomance of the hole system to justify it? if so, as long as this decision is only concern to GTA03 (the camera version of GTA02 to simplify) I will change my mind and advocate for a qvga version, and in the marketing view it well still make sense, one version to professional use with no camera and more res to console/spectrometer/and other remote control funny stuff and other more phone like with camera able to do all the above but not so clean so more for hobbyist than profesionals, of for other needs, mean while booth can coexist and costumer is able to choose it will be more than pretty. it is an option for gta03 - if there is enough push to go to it, but it is unlikely. gta04 and beyond is an unwritten book at this stage and i want to know what happens when we go to differing resolutions. at the end of the day many phones still are produced to this very day at qvga resolution. it is not unusual. but i suspect we may need to go to qvga or wqvga at some point out of necessity (eg we make a miniature phone that is 1/2 the size of the freerunner - qvga is very very likely - or even less as vga just wont be available at that size). it all depends on many factors. i am beating the qvga drum because i seriously think that vga - at the physical size we have (2.8) while looking gorgeous for stills and text, for most people is a blurr and overkill in cost and drags down performance. maybe i am focusing on the more average joe who doesn't want an 80x24 terminal - the average person who wants just to make calls, read and write sms's and take some photos... for the most common uses of a phone qvga is more than enough. vga is only necessary for some very specialised uses. other than that it's just bragging rights on my phone has more pixels than yours :) But if this decision concern GTA04 and beyond ,or gta03 will replace gta02, I will not agree(LOL, I said it like I have some influence in openmoko decisions) because we must go forward and increase specs (and performance), --- El mar, 10/6/08, Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: De: Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!) Para: List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org CC: Dave O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: martes, 10 junio, 2008 7:43 On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 20:43:22 -0700 Dave O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: I said this in the channel but you weren't there. We should be going forward with specs, not backward. By the time the next revisions come there'll be a whole new generation of hardware so the freerunner will then be lagging even more. Someone mentioned getting a faster cpu and my 2c are that I think that that's a much better option. But it sounds like you've already made the decision. i'd love a better cpu - better memory bus and much more. right now the only thing we have is gta03 - same cpu as freerunner etc etc. just different gsm subsystem (2g/edge) and no glamo (dumb 2442 fb), new case, added camera. don't get me wrong - i've been running high res as long as i have been able to. i went to 1600x1200 as soon as mu hardware could. i have insisted on laptops with 1600x1200 or higher - 1920x1200 ones too. i use tiny fonts and high dpi screens. i personally love high resolution, but i have noticed a tendency to be the only one in the room who can read it. i'd love an 800x480 300dpi screen - they exist. i was playing with a phone last week with one on it. but practical factors may just not allow it. if you wish to find a reliable supplier for us of such hardware at a good price, then go for it, but practical product concerns may mean it just can't happen. same with cpu speeds and graphics. we are in a world where to get gfx support to run such high resolutions means we need to have closed drivers. and that is not somewhere where we are going. we make compromises. you won't get the best of components in every possible way due to the nature of what is being done here. we try where we can, but somewhere compromises will need to be made. what people have been saying here is that they have excellent eyesight and can see a tin 2.8 vga screen well enough to make use of it. like really see the difference and be able to do things with that res that would be not possible, impractical or painful
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
as i have said before - gta03 is vga - as it stands, but can go to qvga easily, but is unlikely to. in the future who knows. it'd be a tradeoff of screen pixel count vs processor speed vs any graphics acceleration we can get - if any. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Carsten, There was a WQVGA screen you once mentioned on the IRC and said you liked a lot for the GTA04 screen. I can't remember the specs right now but do you remember which one it was? Rakshat PS but i am being shown designs wanted that REQUIRE compositing - REQUIRE alpha blending and all that snazz. Can compositing and alpha bending be done at QVGA by the glamo? -- -- Please use Firefox as your web browser. Its protects you from spyware and is also a very feature rich browser. www.firefox.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 2008/6/9 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. That is unusable. I'm sorry, I will not force myself to use that. I will buy something else. Using the terminal on a remote machine with a 4 pixels font is possibile like it is possible to eat cockroaches for lunch everyday. There are some 'can get by' that I will not force myself to get by with. have you done it? have you tried it? i have. it works ok. not beautiful - but definitely functional. No, I haven't. Could you post a screenshot of how it looks? Maybe if I see it I can be convinced, I'm at least that open minded. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:44 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 09:10:20 + (GMT) David Samblas Martinez [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Hi Carsten I suppose you passion to be in favor of qvga has to have an strong reason. You have asked to us why be prefer vga vs qvga and I thing this long long thread can be resumed as because is better (isolating it to resolution question only) I propose you to the answer the reverse question and please be as truefull as you can. You considerer than downgrade the resolution will improve so much the perfomance of the hole system to justify it? if so, as long as this decision is only concern to GTA03 (the camera version of GTA02 to simplify) I will change my mind and advocate for a qvga version, and in the marketing view it well still make sense, one version to professional use with no camera and more res to console/spectrometer/and other remote control funny stuff and other more phone like with camera able to do all the above but not so clean so more for hobbyist than profesionals, of for other needs, mean while booth can coexist and costumer is able to choose it will be more than pretty. it is an option for gta03 - if there is enough push to go to it, but it is unlikely. gta04 and beyond is an unwritten book at this stage and i want to know what happens when we go to differing resolutions. at the end of the day many phones still are produced to this very day at qvga resolution. it is not unusual. but i suspect we may need to go to qvga or wqvga at some point out of necessity (eg we make a miniature phone that is 1/2 the size of the freerunner - qvga is very very likely - or even less as vga just wont be available at that size). it all depends on many factors. i am beating the qvga drum because i seriously think that vga - at the physical size we have (2.8) while looking gorgeous for stills and text, for most people is a blurr and overkill in cost and drags down performance. maybe i am focusing on the more average joe who doesn't want an 80x24 terminal - the average person who wants just to make calls, read and write sms's and take some photos... for the most common uses of a phone qvga is more than enough. vga is only necessary for some very specialised uses. other than that it's just bragging rights on my phone has more pixels than yours :) But if this decision concern GTA04 and beyond ,or gta03 will replace gta02, I will not agree(LOL, I said it like I have some influence in openmoko decisions) because we must go forward and increase specs (and performance), Let's be honest with ourselves. The regular joe's going to buy iPhones (or, *shudder* RAZRs) for quite some time. You can't just walk into Verizon to buy it, the software for the device isn't finished, and it costs twice as much as an iPhone. It's going to be a geek phone for some time. GTA04(5,6?) may be interesting to consumers, but that's a ways off. In the mean time, ignoring the current primary demographic -- geeks -- will kill off the phone before it has a chance to become usable for the demographic you want: consumers. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: nb - your chars just become tall (3x7). eg: % # # # # # S ## # # # ## s ## ## ## ## $ # ## ## # ## ## # @ ## # # ### ### ### # ## # # # # # ### # # ### # # # # o # # # # # # I understand. I would still like to see a screenshot of fstab or xorg.conf open in vim with such a font on qvga screen. I don't mind getting used to some displeasures, however others I avoid if possible. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: what people have been saying here is that they have excellent eyesight and can see a tin 2.8 vga screen well enough to make use of it. like really see the difference and be able to do things with that res that would be not possible, impractical or painful otherwise. i've fairly amazed at the number of people saying their eyesight is so good as it is in stark contrast to my experience over the years, but ok - i'll take it for what it is. i didn't know how many people really could see the difference AND make use of it. i'm surprised. I personally _don't_ have that great eyesight, yet I find the difference between my VGA x50v and the QGVA x50 so substantial that I would not even consider buying the QVGA machine even if it were the only option. I'm nearsighted, though, and farsighted people may have different experience. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
eg we make a miniature phone that is 1/2 the size of the freerunner - qvga is very very likely - or even less as vga just wont be available at that size well, less physical size is a very plausible rationale for qvga (or hvga) -- but, as i understand, we are talking about the size of the actual neo, right? maybe i am focusing on the more average joe who doesn't want an 80x24 terminal - the average person who wants just to make calls, read and write sms's and take some photos... for the most common uses of a phone qvga is more than enough. vga is only necessary for some very specialised uses. is that average joe the target group (is this the word?) of openmoko? isn't the target user someone who pushes the limits of things possible? i for one will use the freerunner as some kind of full featured computer in my pocket, being able to do almost everything my laptop does. i am unsure whether openmoko will be able to compete with apple or htc in terms of appealing to average joe -- i think openmokos share of the market are users/organisations/companies looking for an open, easy expandable (software side) phone with no small bounds (as a little screen would be). average joe who will not buy an iphone but looks for something similar will be targeted by htc's armada of devices and even blackberry, which are avalibale through the carriers' shops. how big are the chances om will be available by vodaphone, t-mobile, you name it? other than that it's just bragging rights on my phone has more pixels than yours :) well, i know nobody who does and if i would do bragg i do not know somebody who would listen ;-) what i would bragg about is my phone is open! i could do all programming and more -- no need for iTunes or [carrier/platform dependend strait jacket] -- an people bragging about that .. well, that's surely the people you expect to buy the freerunner? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 18:01:03 +0530 rakshat hooja [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: as i have said before - gta03 is vga - as it stands, but can go to qvga easily, but is unlikely to. in the future who knows. it'd be a tradeoff of screen pixel count vs processor speed vs any graphics acceleration we can get - if any. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Carsten, There was a WQVGA screen you once mentioned on the IRC and said you liked a lot for the GTA04 screen. I can't remember the specs right now but do you remember which one it was? 3 480x272. it's thinner than the current vga 2.8 by a fair bit and a tiny bit longer (as it is wide). it seems almost the perfect screen for a smaller/slimmer model like gta04/05 etc. same # of pixels as the PSP screen, but in a much smaller space. Rakshat PS but i am being shown designs wanted that REQUIRE compositing - REQUIRE alpha blending and all that snazz. Can compositing and alpha bending be done at QVGA by the glamo? -- -- Please use Firefox as your web browser. Its protects you from spyware and is also a very feature rich browser. www.firefox.com -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:57:36 +0300 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: 2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: nb - your chars just become tall (3x7). eg: % # # # # # S ## # # # ## s ## ## ## ## $ # ## ## # ## ## # @ ## # # ### ### ### # ## # # # # # ### # # ### # # # # o # # # # # # I understand. I would still like to see a screenshot of fstab or xorg.conf open in vim with such a font on qvga screen. I don't mind getting used to some displeasures, however others I avoid if possible. http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/images/fonts/atari-small-samp.gif Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
3 480x272. it's thinner than the current vga 2.8 by a fair bit and a tiny bit longer (as it is wide). it seems almost the perfect screen for a smaller/slimmer model like gta04/05 etc. same # of pixels as the PSP screen, but in a much smaller space. http://www.firefox.com Good enough for me if this gives faster performance :-). Need to check for visibility in light and if that is better that the current VGA I vote for this for the GTA04. Rakshat ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On 10 Jun 2008, at 02:17, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: browsing full web pages scrammed into a 2.8 screen as many have suggested, is really... pushing such a tiny screen far beyond its usefulness. web pages are designed for 14 or 17 screens or so. squeezing them down into 2.8 is nigh madness. it's possible - but vga vs qvga there isn't the factor (imho) :) I'm sorry, Carsten, but this just makes me think you're nuts. Um, I mean, eccentric. I mean, I know you know loads more about this sort of thing than I do, but mobile phone web-browsers are absolutely standard these days. I can see your point that the size of mobile phone screens makes for poor viewing, but that doesn't mean we're not going to do it anyway - viewing a webpage when you're out and about is SO tremendously useful (maybe not all the time, but when one needs it) that it's got to be a design consideration. And to say that 4 times the pixels makes no discernible difference in this? Well, c'mon! True, there may be many people who never use the web-browser in their mobile phone, but my Mum just uses the cheapest mobile phone she got for £20 from Tesco. Likewise my ex-girlfriend bought her mobile phone because it was pink, or pretty by whatever other criteria is important this week. People buying Openmoko phones will do so because they want to install applications (if only one or two) on them, and these are the sort of people who will turn to a web-browser when they're stuck for some piece of information and away from home. Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:12 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:57:36 +0300 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: 2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: nb - your chars just become tall (3x7). eg: I understand. I would still like to see a screenshot of fstab or xorg.conf open in vim with such a font on qvga screen. I don't mind getting used to some displeasures, however others I avoid if possible. http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/images/fonts/atari-small-samp.gif That's painful for this reader. I couldn't write or read code - or anything really - in that font for more than a few seconds. IMHO, It'd be kind of ironic that a totally hackable phone wouldn't have the ability to read or write text. FYI, I did lasik corrective surgery so my eyesight is relatively good . Robert ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) pisze: [...] maybe it just needs people to actually use it for a while and they might begin to see that a lower res screen may just be fine and not as bad as they think. the things you want to do are possible at lower resolutions. well, as for now I have only 15 minutes experience with QVGA, and I have already get used to my beautiful gta01 screen, so the result of this quick comparison is very easy to predict... I have a question for people who are digital photography enthusiasts (personally I prefer old/traditional/dying photography so I can not tell myself)... The neo screen, has almost 300dpi and AFAIK most photolabs are printing photos in 300dpi. Could it be useful for you guys, for some kind of preview? One can scale the photo to some target size and check some, most interesting parts of this photo on neo screen as it would be almost as good as on resulting print. I think one can see that this part is not sharp enough and this detail is not big enough and so on... Is it realistic use case or am I only in love with this resolution and desperately looking for arguments :) I think most digital cameras have no such good resolutions on their LCDs (but again, Im not up to date) with the exception of course of some very high-end SLR cameras. With some big SD cart, neo could be even used as some lifesaving photobank (I know - usb1.1, but if qvga _can_ be usable with tiny font, the same aplies here ;D )... Piotr ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
I'm with Robert on this one. Took me a while to parse many of the characters on that image. On Tue, 10 Jun 2008, robert lazarski wrote: On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:12 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:57:36 +0300 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: 2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: nb - your chars just become tall (3x7). eg: I understand. I would still like to see a screenshot of fstab or xorg.conf open in vim with such a font on qvga screen. I don't mind getting used to some displeasures, however others I avoid if possible. http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/images/fonts/atari-small-samp.gif That's painful for this reader. I couldn't write or read code - or anything really - in that font for more than a few seconds. IMHO, It'd be kind of ironic that a totally hackable phone wouldn't have the ability to read or write text. FYI, I did lasik corrective surgery so my eyesight is relatively good . Robert ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On 6/10/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 19:10:22 +0200 Flemming Richter Mikkelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On 6/9/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. How can u separate @, #, $, S, %, æ, ø, o, etc, when only using 3 pixels? 5 pix + 1 pix space is a minimum for good reading, unless some chars take more space than others. you make little shapeless blobs of the chars :) you can tell the difference (though it's a terminal - if you start going into intl. chars like æ etc. imho you are exiting the vt100 world - you could argue that you can't read 魚 in a 3 pixel (+ 1 space) font either... so i draw the line at basic ascii for a terminal. Well, 'æ' can be converted to 'ae' :) nb - your chars just become tall (3x7). eg: % # # # # # S ## # # # ## s ## ## ## ## $ # ## ## # ## ## # @ ## # # ### ### ### # ## # # # # # ### # # ### # # # # o # # # # # # Thanks:) I tried to zoom this down (font size 4) and it was not that bad. But I think this needs a little getting used to. Anyway, I am not against QVGA as long as this can increase the battery time and decrease the phone size over time (to something no bigger than a credit card:). So everyone has their own idea of how it should be. This is good, but not every wishes can come true. But please have a look at the neonode [1]. It runs windows mobile. It is terrible as it suffers with a lot of bugs, but looks cool on the video. It has a 2,0 LCD @ 176x220 pixels. [1] http://www.neonode.com/en-us/products/n2/introduction/watch-the-video/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On 6/10/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 18:01:03 +0530 rakshat hooja [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: as i have said before - gta03 is vga - as it stands, but can go to qvga easily, but is unlikely to. in the future who knows. it'd be a tradeoff of screen pixel count vs processor speed vs any graphics acceleration we can get - if any. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Carsten, There was a WQVGA screen you once mentioned on the IRC and said you liked a lot for the GTA04 screen. I can't remember the specs right now but do you remember which one it was? 3 480x272. it's thinner than the current vga 2.8 by a fair bit and a tiny bit longer (as it is wide). it seems almost the perfect screen for a smaller/slimmer model like gta04/05 etc. same # of pixels as the PSP screen, but in a much smaller space. Nice! So the phones will be smaller:) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On 6/10/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:53:49 +0300 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: 2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 2008/6/9 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. That is unusable. I'm sorry, I will not force myself to use that. I will buy something else. Using the terminal on a remote machine with a 4 pixels font is possibile like it is possible to eat cockroaches for lunch everyday. There are some 'can get by' that I will not force myself to get by with. have you done it? have you tried it? i have. it works ok. not beautiful - but definitely functional. No, I haven't. Could you post a screenshot of how it looks? Maybe if I see it I can be convinced, I'm at least that open minded. can't as i did it years ago on my ipaq. but it's the same font as here: http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/Tech/x11fonts.html see the 4x8 font at the top. bdf downloadable and usable. Wow! That is amazing! Now I am 100% convinced that QVGA is not that bad:) I could read it without any problems. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Am Di 10. Juni 2008 schrieb Carsten Haitzler: On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 17:16:06 +0800 Wilkinson, Alex [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: 0n Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 01:43:08PM +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote: we are in a world where to get gfx support to run such high resolutions means we need to have closed drivers. and that is not Curious, why is that ? graphics is the most intensive thing your device is likely to do in terms of processing. if you want soft drop shadows, alpha blending (and trust me - everyone is drooling for it out there - the iphone is doing it already) the No, I won't trust you here! I give a SH*T on soft shadows, even on my desktop. I switch off animation because I think it's annoying waste of time to see the same movie over and over. Alpha blending? Eeew! Useless. Every single argument been mentioned multiple times here. Redundance. GTA03 has VGA - period! 04 even better i'd bet on it. 05 virtually no-one even thinking of now, not to mention sourceability of parts when it's coming to real. And now I'm definitely stopping to feed this tro.. er, thread, which btw seems nobody is looking on the weird subject any more :-/ ETX jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 13:00:54 -0300 robert lazarski [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:12 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:57:36 +0300 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: 2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: nb - your chars just become tall (3x7). eg: I understand. I would still like to see a screenshot of fstab or xorg.conf open in vim with such a font on qvga screen. I don't mind getting used to some displeasures, however others I avoid if possible. http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/images/fonts/atari-small-samp.gif That's painful for this reader. I couldn't write or read code - or anything really - in that font for more than a few seconds. IMHO, It'd be kind of ironic that a totally hackable phone wouldn't have the ability to read or write text. FYI, I did lasik corrective surgery so my eyesight is relatively good . hold it so that it covers the same visual field the 2.8 on the freerunner would. it's easier to read. :) i do agree - it's not great for code - but for normal shell usage it's adequate for editing said files which don't use punctuation and other symbol chars much. :) -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 01:07:40 +0200 Joerg Reisenweber [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Am Di 10. Juni 2008 schrieb Carsten Haitzler: On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 17:16:06 +0800 Wilkinson, Alex [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: 0n Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 01:43:08PM +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote: we are in a world where to get gfx support to run such high resolutions means we need to have closed drivers. and that is not Curious, why is that ? graphics is the most intensive thing your device is likely to do in terms of processing. if you want soft drop shadows, alpha blending (and trust me - everyone is drooling for it out there - the iphone is doing it already) the No, I won't trust you here! I give a SH*T on soft shadows, even on my desktop. I switch off animation because I think it's annoying waste of time to see the same movie over and over. Alpha blending? Eeew! Useless. the day the design mockups for the ui i see stop having alpha transparency is the day i make this unimportant. until that day, your i don't care about this is the kind of opinion that i also am not interested in, because i am being shown ui designs hat REQUIRE it in the long run between windows, and in the short term is being faked with software within windows. i am just trying to make something possible that is being requested, and has been for a long time. not just say i don't care. Every single argument been mentioned multiple times here. Redundance. GTA03 has VGA - period! things can change - unlikely to be, but can. i have said it many times already. 04 even better i'd bet on it. 05 virtually no-one even thinking of now, not to mention sourceability of parts when it's coming to real. And now I'm definitely stopping to feed this tro.. er, thread, which btw seems nobody is looking on the weird subject any more :-/ ETX jOERG -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 16:40:08 +0100 Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On 10 Jun 2008, at 02:17, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: browsing full web pages scrammed into a 2.8 screen as many have suggested, is really... pushing such a tiny screen far beyond its usefulness. web pages are designed for 14 or 17 screens or so. squeezing them down into 2.8 is nigh madness. it's possible - but vga vs qvga there isn't the factor (imho) :) I'm sorry, Carsten, but this just makes me think you're nuts. Um, I mean, eccentric. I mean, I know you know loads more about this sort of thing than I do, but mobile phone web-browsers are absolutely standard these days. never said otherwise but the screen is physically small. very. put it at a normal usage distance and it covers a small fraction of the field of view a standard desktop screen does. web pages are normally designed for the field of view of a desktop screen. either you play zooming games to squeeze it down, or scrolling, or play re-formatting games. however you look at it - you won't get close to the same experience. of course web pages designed for small screens... that's another matter! :) I can see your point that the size of mobile phone screens makes for poor viewing, but that doesn't mean we're not going to do it anyway - viewing a webpage when you're out and about is SO tremendously useful (maybe not all the time, but when one needs it) that it's got to be a design consideration. And to say that 4 times the pixels makes no discernible difference in this? Well, c'mon! it makes a difference - but not as much of one as you want to think when using it normally. (normal distance from your eyes, etc.). you end up needing larger fonts to be able to read it (unless you have spectacular vision) and so the amount of content it fits is fairly low... that's my main point. yes - the screen is nice. but it is physically small. after months and months of being at it - running apps on it, making stuff work - and work for fingers, font sizes just go up and up. any form of gadget/control is just big so it can be hit with a finger (yes - we are going for finger control. nothing new. the device wasn't designed for a stylus - no place to hold one), so in the end - vga vs qvga is much less of a content issue when you hit this point and more of a quality issue. as i said before - maybe it just needs people to get them in hand and use it for a while. True, there may be many people who never use the web-browser in their mobile phone, but my Mum just uses the cheapest mobile phone she got for £20 from Tesco. Likewise my ex-girlfriend bought her mobile phone because it was pink, or pretty by whatever other criteria is important this week. People buying Openmoko phones will do so because they want to install applications (if only one or two) on them, and these are the sort of people who will turn to a web-browser when they're stuck for some piece of information and away from home. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:51:03 +0200 Flemming Richter Mikkelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/Tech/x11fonts.html see the 4x8 font at the top. bdf downloadable and usable. Wow! That is amazing! Now I am 100% convinced that QVGA is not that bad:) I could read it without any problems. cool. as i said. i don't think all the doom and gloom if we had qvga is warranted. it is still surprisingly good. the physical screen size is much more of a factor (imho), and if we went to a larger screen at qvga - we'd be in trouble of a nasty display. 2.8 i think is the limit. most qvga's i've seen at 2.2-2.8. maybe up to 3. but qvga can be usable for an 80x24 terminal. it's been done before for those who have followed handhelds.org and the early days of linux on the ipaq, zaurus etc. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:44:09 +0200 Flemming Richter Mikkelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: 3 480x272. it's thinner than the current vga 2.8 by a fair bit and a tiny bit longer (as it is wide). it seems almost the perfect screen for a smaller/slimmer model like gta04/05 etc. same # of pixels as the PSP screen, but in a much smaller space. Nice! So the phones will be smaller:) no idea. it is just something i have seen and thought was nice. i also saw a 432x240 3 screen - exact same dimensions. it's used in several japanese phones. that is what first got me onto the widescreen wqvga trail. but nothing has been even closely decided there. it's all looking around. if the vocal group here are to be accounted for going to these screens would be utterly bad and we should accept nothing less than vga so wvga (800x480) is the only way up into the future. ouch. poor cpu. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
i asked for use case because i am not just talking quality. i am talking a case where vga makes something possible at all or not. where something just wouldn't be usable or possible without vga. that is what i asked. i want a use case for vga. not just a it looks a bit nicer. Examples mentioned before: * 24x80 console terminal for remote access of a server * previewing a 300 kPix image (that isn't much resolution!) without scrolling/zooming panning * monthly overview for a calendar where each day shows a reasonably useful content * reading 12pt text (not only seeing that there are lines) of a web page designed for =VGA without scrolling One more observation: TV systems initially started with approx. 300 lines (QVGA) and rapidly invented the half-line interlacing system to come to 500-600 lines (more than VGA). So, the early TV from the 40ies were not good enough but the 500-600 lines from the 50ies were good enough for 50 years. Now comes HDTV. The use case was unchanged: viewing broadcast movies. I think, generally everything *can* be done on a smaller resolution. The solutions are: * scrolling * flipping between pages * reducing content So, I am quite sure you will *not* find *any* application that is really *impossible* to use on QVGA... As said before - you can *use* a Porsche as a vehicle if it has at least one gear level. But would one buy it? BR, Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
2008/6/9 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: no. it is absolutely not enough. why? i am asked by product management to do things that are just not possible in vga (to do sanely/fast). they come first. you users come second. in the end if product management want X they get X. and if for X to happen we go QVGA, then so be it. you guys lose. i need a very very very strong argument against going to qvga - and that means product management need to drop a feature. Hardware features are almost always better than software features, especially in open platforms where the software can be modified but the hardware not easily so. i asked for use case because i am not just talking quality. i am talking a case where vga makes something possible at all or not. where something just wouldn't be usable or possible without vga. that is what i asked. i want a use case for vga. not just a it looks a bit nicer. SSH, Month view in calendar, reading books. All stuff that I need an x50v (VGA screen) to do now. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Monday 09 June 2008 02:56:22 Carsten Haitzler wrote: wouldn't be usable or possible without vga. that is what i asked. i want a use case for vga. not just a it looks a bit nicer. Try browsing the web in a QVGA window sometimes, IMHO it's an exercise in futility no matter if you try to relayout the site a la Opera or zoom like in the S60 browser. VGA is not be ideal either, but approaching useable on many sites as you at least stand a decent chance of seeing the entire width of the main content pane at once. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 08:56:22 +0800 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 18:58:15 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: we could just not ever even ask you guys and you get what you are given. too bad. no input at all. i've opened up the floor for input - but i'm trying to dig specific things out of it - not things that smell ofi just want higher specs. or keeping up with the joneses. i want real use case scenarios that make real sense. :) This discussion starts to become quite boring. Isn't a single potential customer who says I want it and I am willing to pay for it enough? There have been several here on this list, if I remember correctly who expressed exactly that. no. it is absolutely not enough. why? i am asked by product management to do things that are just not possible in vga (to do sanely/fast). they come first. you users come second. in the end if product management want X they get X. and if for X to happen we go QVGA, then so be it. you guys lose. i need a very very very strong argument against going to qvga - and that means product management need to drop a feature. note - i am talking hypothetically. i don't want to discuss vga as a product management feature - not if you like it or not, or it looks pretty. i am looking for hard cold technical facts. what does it stop being possible i know: 1. u may need to scroll more 2. viewing of images/data that just have more pixel content will need to be zoomed out and have less display fidelity 3. some things requiring text displays like 80x24 terminals will be not readable at all at font sizes able to fit on the display (they will jut blur away all character details). with almost everything i can think of you can get by qvga by: 1. scaling data 2. changing font sizes 3. re-arranging ui elements etc. no matter what you need to do this even for vga - if coming fro xga land or better. it's just a more extreme case. no mater what at vga - u still need to zoom most web pages. even at 800x480 you still need to. i have a n800. i know how often i have to scroll horizontally even with 800pixels to play with. i know what it ends up looking like. so qvga is just a more extreme level of zooming or scrolling needed. an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. at some point someone will have to make a call on resolutions. maybe we make a much smaller phone with a smaller screen and thus you will need to have fewer pixels anyway? who knows. but if there are uses that cannot be somehow crammed into qvga, i would like to know. right now freerunner is vga - and nothing will change. gta03 is also vga - it is theoretically possible to change without much impact, but chances of a change are very slim, unless qvga is a that's fine for everyone ANd product management want to push it. right now they don't push one way or another. as for future phones - who knows. but knowing what you guys do, want to do, and need is important. so we need to think of more virtual framebuffer technology? (eg advertise a higher res but scale down with a compositor?). is high-res an absolute must for functionality for your uses, or just a nice to have to show off with? BTW: a use case doesn't say anything about required quality. It describes a sequence of interactions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_case). Sorry, but I can't disclaim my academic history :) i asked for use case because i am not just talking quality. i am talking a case where vga makes something possible at all or not. where something just wouldn't be usable or possible without vga. that is what i asked. i want a use case for vga. not just a it looks a bit nicer. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
with almost everything i can think of you can get by qvga by: 1. scaling data 2. changing font sizes 3. re-arranging ui elements etc. well, all that is possible even with eight of vga or even less. i see your point, but, i think there is no use case which fullfills your requirements -- as said above, everything is possible with even less resolution. those which use linux a long time and still remember the small screens of and the virtual screen X offered ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: i know: 1. u may need to scroll more 2. viewing of images/data that just have more pixel content will need to be zoomed out and have less display fidelity 3. some things requiring text displays like 80x24 terminals will be not readable at all at font sizes able to fit on the display (they will jut blur away all character details). with almost everything i can think of you can get by qvga by: 1. scaling data 2. changing font sizes 3. re-arranging ui elements etc. no matter what you need to do this even for vga - if coming fro xga land or better. it's just a more extreme case. If you are going to demand an example of an application which simply cannot be run on a QVGA screen, no matter how bad the user experience would be, then I guess people will have a hard time coming up with one. The same would be true of a 100 x 100 pixel screen. You could just scroll and scroll and scroll some more, and do what you need to do. You could just demand that everyone re-write their applications to accomodate a screen that is very small. We could all switch to reading text in Braille, whose characters can be displayed in a smaller cell than the fonts sighted persons usually use. But the question should not be Can you give me an example of something which can be done with a VGA screen but which absolutely cannot be done with a QVGA screen?. The question should be Are you willing to give up the benefits of a VGA screen in order to have smooth animation and fast video on a QVGA screen, and a lower cost?. It seems to me that the vast majority of the people who have reponded here have said no, that's a poor engineering trade off. In fact, I don't think even one person has responded that, for them, that trade off would be a good one. Ken Young ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
My personal use cases for higher resolution: - programming on the freerunner. I've been learning Haskell, I want to get ghci or hugs on there and hack around with that. Also I'm thinking about running the glade editor on there, if that's possible. - using the freerunner as a remote control for amarok. I want to be able to see more than just a couple of songs of my collection. Hopefully the web-based amarok control is usable on 640x480. - GPS mapping. The more map, the better this is. - Calendar. I've used the palm calendar for a long time, and its just not that useful for seeing what's coming up at a high level. You end up having to step through one day at a time to see what events are on there. - Photo viewer. Hook up the freerunner to a digital camera and use it to view the photos at a higher resolution than the camera screen. By definition pointless unless you have higher resolution than the camera viewfinder. Most of these are not impossible with lower resolution - I used to do programming on my palm III which is only 160x160 I think. However, its much nicer on something with more real estate. Also, having more resolution allows us to use more programs that were not designed for openmoko without excessive scrolling, like the glade editor. To me these are real reasons to have more resolution, its not just eye candy and pointless feature-itis. Not that QVGA is a bad idea though - I'd like to see a low cost openmoko phone at some point, something directed at the low end cellphone market perhaps. If that was the only open phone around, I might even buy one. Given the choice though, I'll definitely spring for the high res option. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
2008/6/9 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. That is unusable. I'm sorry, I will not force myself to use that. I will buy something else. Using the terminal on a remote machine with a 4 pixels font is possibile like it is possible to eat cockroaches for lunch everyday. There are some 'can get by' that I will not force myself to get by with. at some point someone will have to make a call on resolutions. maybe we make a much smaller phone with a smaller screen and thus you will need to have fewer pixels anyway? who knows. but if there are uses that cannot be somehow crammed into qvga, i would like to know. right now freerunner is vga - and nothing will change. gta03 is also vga - it is theoretically possible to change without much impact, but chances of a change are very slim, unless qvga is a that's fine for everyone ANd product management want to push it. right now they don't push one way or another. as for future phones - who knows. but knowing what you guys do, want to do, and need is important. so we need to think of more virtual framebuffer technology? (eg advertise a higher res but scale down with a compositor?). is high-res an absolute must for functionality for your uses, or just a nice to have to show off with? High res in very important for me. If I were to buy a phone without a high-res screen, it may as well not even have a screen. My home phone does not have a screen and as a phone I have no problem with it. However, it is good for nothing other than making phone calls. That is fine because in the house I have other devices that perform the functions that I need. My portable device, on the other hand, must be capable of more, much more, and everything that is not audio (ie, voice calls or music) requires the use of the screen. Do not skim on that most important of interface devices. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
2008/6/9 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 2008/6/9 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. That is unusable. I'm sorry, I will not force myself to use that. I will buy something else. Using the terminal on a remote machine with a 4 pixels font is possibile like it is possible to eat cockroaches for lunch everyday. There are some 'can get by' that I will not force myself to get by with. The same with having to flip between right/left panes: it turns a half-second operation into a five-second one, and it taxes the brain at the same time. Moreover, this has to fit a keyboard along with anything else. The keyboard itself has very minimal needs in terms of resolution, but it steals about a third of the screen in portrait mode, more in landscape -- 640x480 is probably a bare minimum. You'd be getting 200 by 240 usable space with qvga. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On 6/9/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. How can u separate @, #, $, S, %, æ, ø, o, etc, when only using 3 pixels? 5 pix + 1 pix space is a minimum for good reading, unless some chars take more space than others. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Chris Wright wrote: 2008/6/9 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 2008/6/9 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. That is unusable. I'm sorry, I will not force myself to use that. I will buy something else. Using the terminal on a remote machine with a 4 pixels font is possibile like it is possible to eat cockroaches for lunch everyday. There are some 'can get by' that I will not force myself to get by with. The same with having to flip between right/left panes: it turns a half-second operation into a five-second one, and it taxes the brain at the same time. Moreover, this has to fit a keyboard along with anything else. The keyboard itself has very minimal needs in terms of resolution, but it steals about a third of the screen in portrait mode, more in landscape -- 640x480 is probably a bare minimum. You'd be getting 200 by 240 usable space with qvga. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community The keyboard and and landscape mode are very important I think. If you are going to be doing ssh of any king you will need a physical keyboard (bluetooth or a foldout of some kind in a future model) and you will need to be able rotate the screen to landscape mode to get decent resolution. Now that qt is on x, landscape mode should be easily possible with xrandr so the last issue is a kb as in landscape mode its a certainty that you wont be able to use an onscreen kb with a stylus and ssh at the same time. - Rob ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
2008/6/9 Flemming Richter Mikkelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 6/9/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. How can u separate @, #, $, S, %, æ, ø, o, etc, when only using 3 pixels? 5 pix + 1 pix space is a minimum for good reading, unless some chars take more space than others. 5 pix + 1 pix space is a minimum for reading There, fixed that for you. Getting by with 3+1 pixels is not reading. You may be able to dechipher words, but that is not reading. Reading is when the brain skips over large portions of the text and absorbs the full meaning, because it is able to recognize familiar shapes and derive from them meaning. 3+1 cannot create the different shapes necessary for reading. 7 pix + 2 pix space is a minimum for _good_ reading Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Why not? I do it on a nokia n800. I don't use it a massive amount but it is fairly usable and that's also only 480px high (in freerunner landscape, in freerunner portrait it's 640px high). On Mon, 9 Jun 2008, Robert Taylor wrote: Chris Wright wrote: 2008/6/9 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 2008/6/9 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. That is unusable. I'm sorry, I will not force myself to use that. I will buy something else. Using the terminal on a remote machine with a 4 pixels font is possibile like it is possible to eat cockroaches for lunch everyday. There are some 'can get by' that I will not force myself to get by with. The same with having to flip between right/left panes: it turns a half-second operation into a five-second one, and it taxes the brain at the same time. Moreover, this has to fit a keyboard along with anything else. The keyboard itself has very minimal needs in terms of resolution, but it steals about a third of the screen in portrait mode, more in landscape -- 640x480 is probably a bare minimum. You'd be getting 200 by 240 usable space with qvga. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community The keyboard and and landscape mode are very important I think. If you are going to be doing ssh of any king you will need a physical keyboard (bluetooth or a foldout of some kind in a future model) and you will need to be able rotate the screen to landscape mode to get decent resolution. Now that qt is on x, landscape mode should be easily possible with xrandr so the last issue is a kb as in landscape mode its a certainty that you wont be able to use an onscreen kb with a stylus and ssh at the same time. - Rob ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:43:51 +0200 Peter Kraker [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: not going to happen - that's 2 product runs. expensive to maintain. gta03 is vga right now - unless there is a very big push to qvga. it is possible to go, and not hard at all. it would save costs on hardware, but it won't change at this stage. but beyond gta03 it's an open book and who knows - we may likely pull out a lower res screen. it is in fact very likely something will be a lower res in later products as there is just so much more choice there below vga. How painfull would it be, to sell GTA03 with QVGA and GTA03V version with VGA screen, if those two are indeed very similar ? I'm certain there are enough of us geeks ready to give up some glitter for pixels. Regards Peter Kraker Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) pravi: On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 08:56:22 +0800 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 18:58:15 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: we could just not ever even ask you guys and you get what you are given. too bad. no input at all. i've opened up the floor for input - but i'm trying to dig specific things out of it - not things that smell ofi just want higher specs. or keeping up with the joneses. i want real use case scenarios that make real sense. :) This discussion starts to become quite boring. Isn't a single potential customer who says I want it and I am willing to pay for it enough? There have been several here on this list, if I remember correctly who expressed exactly that. no. it is absolutely not enough. why? i am asked by product management to do things that are just not possible in vga (to do sanely/fast). they come first. you users come second. in the end if product management want X they get X. and if for X to happen we go QVGA, then so be it. you guys lose. i need a very very very strong argument against going to qvga - and that means product management need to drop a feature. note - i am talking hypothetically. i don't want to discuss vga as a product management feature - not if you like it or not, or it looks pretty. i am looking for hard cold technical facts. what does it stop being possible i know: 1. u may need to scroll more 2. viewing of images/data that just have more pixel content will need to be zoomed out and have less display fidelity 3. some things requiring text displays like 80x24 terminals will be not readable at all at font sizes able to fit on the display (they will jut blur away all character details). with almost everything i can think of you can get by qvga by: 1. scaling data 2. changing font sizes 3. re-arranging ui elements etc. no matter what you need to do this even for vga - if coming fro xga land or better. it's just a more extreme case. no mater what at vga - u still need to zoom most web pages. even at 800x480 you still need to. i have a n800. i know how often i have to scroll horizontally even with 800pixels to play with. i know what it ends up looking like. so qvga is just a more extreme level of zooming or scrolling needed. an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. at some point someone will have to make a call on resolutions. maybe we make a much smaller phone with a smaller screen and thus you will need to have fewer pixels anyway? who knows. but if there are uses that cannot be somehow crammed into qvga, i would like to know. right now freerunner is vga - and nothing will change. gta03 is also vga - it is theoretically possible to change without much impact, but chances of a change are very slim, unless qvga is a that's fine for everyone ANd product management want to push it. right now they don't push one way or another. as for future phones - who knows. but knowing what you guys do, want to do, and need is important. so we need to think of more virtual framebuffer technology? (eg advertise a higher res but scale down with a compositor?). is high-res an absolute must for functionality for your uses, or just a nice to have to show off with? BTW: a use case doesn't say anything about required quality. It describes a sequence of interactions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_case). Sorry, but I can't disclaim my academic history :) i asked for use case because i am not just talking quality. i am talking a case where vga makes something possible at all or not. where something just wouldn't be usable or possible without vga. that is what i asked. i want a use case for vga. not just a it looks a bit nicer. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 20:11:37 +0200 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: 2008/6/9 Flemming Richter Mikkelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 6/9/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. How can u separate @, #, $, S, %, æ, ø, o, etc, when only using 3 pixels? 5 pix + 1 pix space is a minimum for good reading, unless some chars take more space than others. 5 pix + 1 pix space is a minimum for reading There, fixed that for you. Getting by with 3+1 pixels is not reading. You may be able to dechipher words, but that is not reading. Reading is when the brain skips over large portions of the text and absorbs the full meaning, because it is able to recognize familiar shapes and derive from them meaning. 3+1 cannot create the different shapes necessary for reading. it can. given a well made font. done it before. see my previous mail with some examples. when used as an actual font they are readable and recognisable as their intended character (once you get used to the font). 7 pix + 2 pix space is a minimum for _good_ reading Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 19:10:22 +0200 Flemming Richter Mikkelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On 6/9/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. How can u separate @, #, $, S, %, æ, ø, o, etc, when only using 3 pixels? 5 pix + 1 pix space is a minimum for good reading, unless some chars take more space than others. you make little shapeless blobs of the chars :) you can tell the difference (though it's a terminal - if you start going into intl. chars like æ etc. imho you are exiting the vt100 world - you could argue that you can't read 魚 in a 3 pixel (+ 1 space) font either... so i draw the line at basic ascii for a terminal. nb - your chars just become tall (3x7). eg: % # # # # # S ## # # # ## s ## ## ## ## $ # ## ## # ## ## # @ ## # # ### ### ### # ## # # # # # ### # # ### # # # # o # # # # # # -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 18:15:26 +0200 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: 2008/6/9 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. That is unusable. I'm sorry, I will not force myself to use that. I will buy something else. Using the terminal on a remote machine with a 4 pixels font is possibile like it is possible to eat cockroaches for lunch everyday. There are some 'can get by' that I will not force myself to get by with. have you done it? have you tried it? i have. it works ok. not beautiful - but definitely functional. at some point someone will have to make a call on resolutions. maybe we make a much smaller phone with a smaller screen and thus you will need to have fewer pixels anyway? who knows. but if there are uses that cannot be somehow crammed into qvga, i would like to know. right now freerunner is vga - and nothing will change. gta03 is also vga - it is theoretically possible to change without much impact, but chances of a change are very slim, unless qvga is a that's fine for everyone ANd product management want to push it. right now they don't push one way or another. as for future phones - who knows. but knowing what you guys do, want to do, and need is important. so we need to think of more virtual framebuffer technology? (eg advertise a higher res but scale down with a compositor?). is high-res an absolute must for functionality for your uses, or just a nice to have to show off with? High res in very important for me. If I were to buy a phone without a high-res screen, it may as well not even have a screen. My home phone does not have a screen and as a phone I have no problem with it. However, it is good for nothing other than making phone calls. That is fine because in the house I have other devices that perform the functions that I need. My portable device, on the other hand, must be capable of more, much more, and everything that is not audio (ie, voice calls or music) requires the use of the screen. Do not skim on that most important of interface devices. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 18:16:11 +0200 Peter J. Holzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On 2008-06-09 09:09:15 -0400, Ken Young wrote: The question should be Are you willing to give up the benefits of a VGA screen in order to have smooth animation and fast video on a QVGA screen, and a lower cost?. It seems to me that the vast majority of the people who have reponded here have said no, that's a poor engineering trade off. I don't have an openmoko yet, so I don't know how the display actually looks or how slow it is. I also don't know what I will use the freerunner for once I get it. But I image that the majority of uses involves text (email, news, ssh) which should really be displayed at 80 chars/line. Probably simple graphics, too (e.g., maps). But I don't think I'll use it to watch videos or play 3d games - so high video performance isn't a high priority for me. My gut feeling is that 640x480 at 2.8 is awfully small (I've printed a screen-shot of an 80x25 windows (with mutt displaying a message from this list) at that size - I can read it, but I think reading longer messages at that font size would be a pain). So I think the direction openmoko should be going in later models (GTA04?) is towards a larger display with at least the same resolution (maybe 640x480 at 4.2, or maybe a wider display (800x480?)) this is a core part of my point. i stare at this screen every day. i know its dpi. most people imho will never make use of such a dpi as they literally can't see it - they will NEED to use much bigger fonts just to see something other than a blur. thus the resolution usefulness degrades rapidly. the but i can't do 80x24 without vga is moot as it is a blur, unless you go up to a font size where all you can fit is 60 wide or less. i am surprised at the number of people who say their eyesight is so good they will happily use tiiiny fonts on a vga 2.8 screen @ 285dpi. i accept that you can - i am just surprised at the number of people who say they can actually see this - compared to what i have actually seen in real life with much lower dpi situations. maybe it just needs people to actually use it for a while and they might begin to see that a lower res screen may just be fine and not as bad as they think. the things you want to do are possible at lower resolutions. browsing full web pages scrammed into a 2.8 screen as many have suggested, is really... pushing such a tiny screen far beyond its usefulness. web pages are designed for 14 or 17 screens or so. squeezing them down into 2.8 is nigh madness. it's possible - but vga vs qvga there isn't the factor (imho) :) -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
I said this in the channel but you weren't there. We should be going forward with specs, not backward. By the time the next revisions come there'll be a whole new generation of hardware so the freerunner will then be lagging even more. Someone mentioned getting a faster cpu and my 2c are that I think that that's a much better option. But it sounds like you've already made the decision. On Tue, 2008-06-10 at 08:52 +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:43:51 +0200 Peter Kraker [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: not going to happen - that's 2 product runs. expensive to maintain. gta03 is vga right now - unless there is a very big push to qvga. it is possible to go, and not hard at all. it would save costs on hardware, but it won't change at this stage. but beyond gta03 it's an open book and who knows - we may likely pull out a lower res screen. it is in fact very likely something will be a lower res in later products as there is just so much more choice there below vga. How painfull would it be, to sell GTA03 with QVGA and GTA03V version with VGA screen, if those two are indeed very similar ? I'm certain there are enough of us geeks ready to give up some glitter for pixels. Regards Peter Kraker Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) pravi: On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 08:56:22 +0800 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 18:58:15 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: we could just not ever even ask you guys and you get what you are given. too bad. no input at all. i've opened up the floor for input - but i'm trying to dig specific things out of it - not things that smell ofi just want higher specs. or keeping up with the joneses. i want real use case scenarios that make real sense. :) This discussion starts to become quite boring. Isn't a single potential customer who says I want it and I am willing to pay for it enough? There have been several here on this list, if I remember correctly who expressed exactly that. no. it is absolutely not enough. why? i am asked by product management to do things that are just not possible in vga (to do sanely/fast). they come first. you users come second. in the end if product management want X they get X. and if for X to happen we go QVGA, then so be it. you guys lose. i need a very very very strong argument against going to qvga - and that means product management need to drop a feature. note - i am talking hypothetically. i don't want to discuss vga as a product management feature - not if you like it or not, or it looks pretty. i am looking for hard cold technical facts. what does it stop being possible i know: 1. u may need to scroll more 2. viewing of images/data that just have more pixel content will need to be zoomed out and have less display fidelity 3. some things requiring text displays like 80x24 terminals will be not readable at all at font sizes able to fit on the display (they will jut blur away all character details). with almost everything i can think of you can get by qvga by: 1. scaling data 2. changing font sizes 3. re-arranging ui elements etc. no matter what you need to do this even for vga - if coming fro xga land or better. it's just a more extreme case. no mater what at vga - u still need to zoom most web pages. even at 800x480 you still need to. i have a n800. i know how often i have to scroll horizontally even with 800pixels to play with. i know what it ends up looking like. so qvga is just a more extreme level of zooming or scrolling needed. an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. at some point someone will have to make a call on resolutions. maybe we make a much smaller phone with a smaller screen and thus you will need to have fewer pixels anyway? who knows. but if there are uses that cannot be somehow crammed into qvga, i would like to know. right now freerunner is vga - and nothing will change. gta03 is also vga - it is theoretically possible to change without much impact, but chances of a change are very slim, unless qvga is a that's fine for everyone ANd product management want to push it. right now they don't push one way or another. as for future phones - who knows. but knowing what you guys do, want to do, and need is important. so we need to think of more virtual framebuffer technology? (eg advertise a higher res but scale down with a compositor?). is high-res an absolute must for functionality for your uses, or just a nice to have to show off with? BTW: a use
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
ti, 2008-06-10 kello 08:52 +0800, Carsten Haitzler kirjoitti: but beyond gta03 it's an open book and who knows - we may likely pull out a lower res screen. it is in fact very likely something will be a lower res in later products as there is just so much more choice there below vga. As a =VGA advocate (for all the stated reasons; web browsing, terminals, better maps, text reading etc.), yes, a lower resolution model may be quite okay. Personally though, it'd be a shame if in the future, for instance, I'd have to pick between UMTS-capable and VGA-resolution OM phones, in the scenario that you put out an UMTS phone with a lesser resolution with no new high-resolution model imminent... The features are to some extent complementary in the sense that more resolution makes the better bandwidth and latency more useful (aside from just wanting both features for their own sake, of course ;). I _could_ actually see the point in making GTA03 a QVGA phone though, since it wouldn't apparently offer much more than an 02 in the way of other features. It could be the display cost-cut version of GSM OM phones... (Personally though, I would've gone straight 3G after GTA02 to get one of those beasts out reasonably fast, since GSM is, well, aged, and lacking 3G is starting to be a major misfeature. But I don't claim to have done market studies on the case...) -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
but there is definitely a i want as insane a dpi as i can get group here. this is for sure. the question is - is it really the majority of users. :) Hm. You can't answer that before defining who the user is (choose between: me, you, this community, worldwide population)? Discussing the QVGA vs. VGA vs. new CPU question before answering the above question can't find an end... BTW: If we go to the level There appears to be a small 'i want as insane cheap display i can get' group here., this will become opinion bashing because it shows up different personal targets. Marketing science has invented the concept of target groups and plurality in product offerings to cover that problem. And the role of a Product Manager to balance and decide that (I have done such a job for 10 years). Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
The root of all evil it seems is glamo. Why not remove the damn thing and put in a new VGA hw which performs at the current CPU speeds? Is this something not doable? There was a topic about SDIO multiplexing sometime back and a hack to achieve this. Any headway on that? Rahul J On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 12:32 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: but there is definitely a i want as insane a dpi as i can get group here. this is for sure. the question is - is it really the majority of users. :) Hm. You can't answer that before defining who the user is (choose between: me, you, this community, worldwide population)? Discussing the QVGA vs. VGA vs. new CPU question before answering the above question can't find an end... BTW: If we go to the level There appears to be a small 'i want as insane cheap display i can get' group here., this will become opinion bashing because it shows up different personal targets. Marketing science has invented the concept of target groups and plurality in product offerings to cover that problem. And the role of a Product Manager to balance and decide that (I have done such a job for 10 years). Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
IMHO, if the 320x240 display is readable under bright sunlight, it might be a better choice than the VGA display used in the GTA01. With the current display, the phone looks great inside a building / conference hall / photo studio, but it's pretty much useless as a GPS device you'd want to use when you're outside. Before releasing a phone for the general public, pleasepleaseplease use it as your only phone for a week or so. Otherwise, the negative reaction from the press might cost you your reputation. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Glamo _will_ be out in GTA03. Unfortunately the slow arm9 will stay. Better then with glamo it seems, but not perfect. On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 9:53 AM, Rahul Joshi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The root of all evil it seems is glamo. Why not remove the damn thing and put in a new VGA hw which performs at the current CPU speeds? Is this something not doable? There was a topic about SDIO multiplexing sometime back and a hack to achieve this. Any headway on that? Rahul J ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 09:02:03 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: but there is definitely a i want as insane a dpi as i can get group here. this is for sure. the question is - is it really the majority of users. :) Hm. You can't answer that before defining who the user is (choose between: me, you, this community, worldwide population)? Discussing the QVGA vs. VGA vs. new CPU question before answering the above question can't find an end... BTW: If we go to the level There appears to be a small 'i want as insane cheap display i can get' group here., this will become opinion bashing because it shows up different personal targets. Marketing science has invented the concept of target groups and plurality in product offerings to cover that problem. And the role of a Product Manager to balance and decide that (I have done such a job for 10 years). i am sure it has - but given that the target group is not well defined - i have yet to see a definition, nor see any research or statistics, nor anything else concrete - it is all conjecture. we could just not ever even ask you guys and you get what you are given. too bad. no input at all. i've opened up the floor for input - but i'm trying to dig specific things out of it - not things that smell ofi just want higher specs. or keeping up with the joneses. i want real use case scenarios that make real sense. :) -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 11:57 AM, polz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IMHO, if the 320x240 display is readable under bright sunlight, it might be a better choice than the VGA display used in the GTA01. With the current display, the phone looks great inside a building / conference hall / photo studio, but it's pretty much useless as a GPS device you'd want to use when you're outside. Before releasing a phone for the general public, pleasepleaseplease use it as your only phone for a week or so. Otherwise, the negative reaction from the press might cost you your reputation. Full ACK! Trasflective QVGA is better ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Op Sunday 08 June 2008 14:25:35 schreef Carsten Haitzler: On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 09:02:03 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: but there is definitely a i want as insane a dpi as i can get group here. this is for sure. the question is - is it really the majority of users. :) Hm. You can't answer that before defining who the user is (choose between: me, you, this community, worldwide population)? Discussing the QVGA vs. VGA vs. new CPU question before answering the above question can't find an end... BTW: If we go to the level There appears to be a small 'i want as insane cheap display i can get' group here., this will become opinion bashing because it shows up different personal targets. Marketing science has invented the concept of target groups and plurality in product offerings to cover that problem. And the role of a Product Manager to balance and decide that (I have done such a job for 10 years). i am sure it has - but given that the target group is not well defined - i have yet to see a definition, nor see any research or statistics, nor anything else concrete - it is all conjecture. we could just not ever even ask you guys and you get what you are given. too bad. no input at all. i've opened up the floor for input - but i'm trying to dig specific things out of it - not things that smell ofi just want higher specs. or keeping up with the joneses. i want real use case scenarios that make real sense. :) I think I've got a real use case scenario. I don't have extraordinarily eye-sight. In fact, with two eyes combined I've got just under 10/10 with quite strong glasses. (Not good enough to become a commercial pilot.) I've don a little test with my current smartphone. It has a 2.8 inch qvga display. I've also searched for the smallest, comfortably readable printed text. I found it on the back of my first pda. It's the text tested to comply with. Than I've opened word mobile on my current smartphone and typed a little text. I made it as small as the printed text on the back of my oldest pda. The text in word wasn't readable anymore. It was reduced to a random bunch of black and white pixels. Also watching pictures on the qvga screen isn't such a pleasure, but I've never had trouble watching movies. Another reason why I'm happy watching qvga movies is because they are much smaller for your phone's memory. Conclusion: I'm certainly a big VGA proponent. Especially when browsing the internet and watching pictures. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 09:06:16 +0300 Flyin_bbb8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: actually - no. most linux developers and users i know need contacts/glasses and they can never read my screen and complain about my fonts being so small all the time (not that i will ever change. i love my small fonts!), but i ma going off anecdotal evidence over many years of me being one of a very small minority who can read and use such a high dpi with small fonts. i am bemused by so many vocal people here claiming to me what seems to be the reverse of my experience over many years - as well as going directly against actual product specs - eg, iphone dpi is very much lower than the neo, but a large margin, but users rave how nice it is. but there is definitely a i want as insane a dpi as i can get group here. this is for sure. the question is - is it really the majority of users. :) As a data point, I'm planning to get 5 freerunners for different people in my household. High dpi will probably only be interesting for one of these, my own. I tend to like high dpi for reading. I dont care at all about moving graphics for this kind of device, only text. Well were all those 'never see them' people linux users and interested in openmoko? Haha we might just all be gifted people ! :D On 6/7/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 01:30:43 +0100 Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On 6 Jun 2008, at 23:19, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: ... Let's reverse the question - would you reduce the resolution of your desktop system? What do you currently have? 1024*1280 or more? You can still do everything like writing software, e-mail, web browsing, gaming. Probably even faster. But how would it appear? Future oriented or old fashioned? this is different - because it's me - my eyesight is better than 20/20 and i use the highest res i can get, when i can get it as i know i can read my miniscule 8pt or less fonts. but no one else can read my screen - they all complain that it's too hard and i am forever upping font sizes if i want anyone to read something on it. i know *I* am fine with it, but the vast majority of other people can't read my screen. this is why i am cutting myself out of this - trying to not be personal about it as i know already i'm an exception to the rule. Hi there, I haven't posted on this topic before because I'm not able to personally compare VGA QVGA 2 phone screens. However my eyesight is also better than 20/20, and display quality is generally quite visible to me. Your statements have seemed to say that QVGA is just as good as VGA for most people, and I have been sceptical of this - I find that my current phone (P990i) is QVGA, and that is rubbish for viewing webpages. Since you have 20/20 eyesight and can view tiny fonts at high resolutions I'm inclined to believe that a VGA screen will, for me, be better for displaying webpages PDFs - I'll be able to fit more on the screen and my eyesight will allow me to read the smaller text. So my vote is for VGA (or even widescreen VGA, like the PSP?). Stroller. it will be better - of course. what' i'm baffled about is why all of a sudden here a lot of excellent vision gifted people turn up, whereas in real life i never see them... :) -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Joakim Verona ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
we could just not ever even ask you guys and you get what you are given. too bad. no input at all. i've opened up the floor for input - but i'm trying to dig specific things out of it - not things that smell ofi just want higher specs. or keeping up with the joneses. i want real use case scenarios that make real sense. :) This discussion starts to become quite boring. Isn't a single potential customer who says I want it and I am willing to pay for it enough? There have been several here on this list, if I remember correctly who expressed exactly that. BTW: a use case doesn't say anything about required quality. It describes a sequence of interactions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_case). Sorry, but I can't disclaim my academic history :) Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 18:58:15 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: we could just not ever even ask you guys and you get what you are given. too bad. no input at all. i've opened up the floor for input - but i'm trying to dig specific things out of it - not things that smell ofi just want higher specs. or keeping up with the joneses. i want real use case scenarios that make real sense. :) This discussion starts to become quite boring. Isn't a single potential customer who says I want it and I am willing to pay for it enough? There have been several here on this list, if I remember correctly who expressed exactly that. no. it is absolutely not enough. why? i am asked by product management to do things that are just not possible in vga (to do sanely/fast). they come first. you users come second. in the end if product management want X they get X. and if for X to happen we go QVGA, then so be it. you guys lose. i need a very very very strong argument against going to qvga - and that means product management need to drop a feature. BTW: a use case doesn't say anything about required quality. It describes a sequence of interactions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_case). Sorry, but I can't disclaim my academic history :) i asked for use case because i am not just talking quality. i am talking a case where vga makes something possible at all or not. where something just wouldn't be usable or possible without vga. that is what i asked. i want a use case for vga. not just a it looks a bit nicer. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 23:26:15 +0300 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: 2008/6/8 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: iphone dpi is very much lower than the neo, but a large margin, but users rave how nice it is. I had the pleasure of playing with an iPhone recently, and I tried to determine the screen's resolution just by eyeballing it, unsuccessfully. I have a QVGA Nokia 6288, had another QVGA phone, had a VGA Dell Axim x50v, and a few other small devices with decent screens. The iPhone's screen is great not because of the resolution, but rather, because there is no 'screen door' effect. That means that white space is white, with no black grid surrounding the pixels as is typical in most LCD screens. When you cannot see the grid, you cannot determine resolution and that is why the iPhone screen looks as good as it does. it has a screen door - it's definitely visible :) and the resolution is 320x480. not that high at all. in fact about half the dpi (or so) of the neo/freerunner. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
I'll go for resolution over pretty graphics any day of the week. A day to day example of this is that I don't run compiz on my desktop machines because it runs faster that way. I'm a function over form kinda guy. (For the record, the distro is Ubuntu, not slackware, or gentoo, or anything that uses rpm's) I don't watch videos on my ipod or my nokia phone, even though I technically *can*. What I'm really looking forward to is being able to open up an ssh session from my phone, and do *stuff* from it, regardless of where I am. That said, after I get my hands on the Freerunner, I may have a different opinion. Cheers, David On Mon, 2008-06-09 at 08:56 +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 18:58:15 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: we could just not ever even ask you guys and you get what you are given. too bad. no input at all. i've opened up the floor for input - but i'm trying to dig specific things out of it - not things that smell ofi just want higher specs. or keeping up with the joneses. i want real use case scenarios that make real sense. :) This discussion starts to become quite boring. Isn't a single potential customer who says I want it and I am willing to pay for it enough? There have been several here on this list, if I remember correctly who expressed exactly that. no. it is absolutely not enough. why? i am asked by product management to do things that are just not possible in vga (to do sanely/fast). they come first. you users come second. in the end if product management want X they get X. and if for X to happen we go QVGA, then so be it. you guys lose. i need a very very very strong argument against going to qvga - and that means product management need to drop a feature. BTW: a use case doesn't say anything about required quality. It describes a sequence of interactions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_case). Sorry, but I can't disclaim my academic history :) i asked for use case because i am not just talking quality. i am talking a case where vga makes something possible at all or not. where something just wouldn't be usable or possible without vga. that is what i asked. i want a use case for vga. not just a it looks a bit nicer. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Well were all those 'never see them' people linux users and interested in openmoko? Haha we might just all be gifted people ! :D On 6/7/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 01:30:43 +0100 Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On 6 Jun 2008, at 23:19, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: ... Let's reverse the question - would you reduce the resolution of your desktop system? What do you currently have? 1024*1280 or more? You can still do everything like writing software, e-mail, web browsing, gaming. Probably even faster. But how would it appear? Future oriented or old fashioned? this is different - because it's me - my eyesight is better than 20/20 and i use the highest res i can get, when i can get it as i know i can read my miniscule 8pt or less fonts. but no one else can read my screen - they all complain that it's too hard and i am forever upping font sizes if i want anyone to read something on it. i know *I* am fine with it, but the vast majority of other people can't read my screen. this is why i am cutting myself out of this - trying to not be personal about it as i know already i'm an exception to the rule. Hi there, I haven't posted on this topic before because I'm not able to personally compare VGA QVGA 2 phone screens. However my eyesight is also better than 20/20, and display quality is generally quite visible to me. Your statements have seemed to say that QVGA is just as good as VGA for most people, and I have been sceptical of this - I find that my current phone (P990i) is QVGA, and that is rubbish for viewing webpages. Since you have 20/20 eyesight and can view tiny fonts at high resolutions I'm inclined to believe that a VGA screen will, for me, be better for displaying webpages PDFs - I'll be able to fit more on the screen and my eyesight will allow me to read the smaller text. So my vote is for VGA (or even widescreen VGA, like the PSP?). Stroller. it will be better - of course. what' i'm baffled about is why all of a sudden here a lot of excellent vision gifted people turn up, whereas in real life i never see them... :) -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Saturday 07 June 2008 00:19:27 Carsten Haitzler wrote: I.e. the problem should be solved by a faster processor with better GPU rather than challenging and and trying to redue user's expectations. Can you build container trucks smaller because then they need much less parking space? but when it has been determined that your cpu is not changing - and there are no other gpu options to improve things... you only can change resolution or speed. which is more important? Resolution is far more important. And graphics performance will hardly be worse than on GTA02, anyhow. If you go QVGA, you're competing squarely against Moto MING and the like. At that point only the most hardcore gimme OPEN crowd (which I estimate to be pretty small) will care about GTA03. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Friday 06 June 2008 19:18:43 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Yes. This should be IMHO the future for GTA03 - use a better chipset rather than a worse display resolution. Full ACK. Some application I have choosen makes regular screen updates: Neo 1973 every 0.5 seconds (due to more work for the higher number of pixels) Acer n30 every 0.3 seconds (same CPU but QVGA) Zaurus C3100 every 0.3 secons (with X/Qt on VGA) So, the difference is not that large by different architectures and display resolutions. The astonishing thing is that the C3100 is faster than the Neo with the same display. I.e. Display resolution by itself can not be the main issue with speed. The PXA27x runs circles around the S3C2410. This brings me to a point not discussed so far. IMHO it also depends on whether Finger or Pen operation is used. With the finger, you have to reduce the display content anyway - like the iPhone working with many sheets moving from left to the right etc. But if you operate by pen, you have a much better precision so select something and you expect and can handle a much higher information density on a single page. So, a better screen reduces the number of flipping/switching operations. Finally, I think since the GTA03 platform should not rule out either finger or pen operation, it must fulfill the higher requirements. That's what I was thinking as well. Cheers, Mickey. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Friday 06 June 2008 20:07:01 Joerg Reisenweber wrote: Am Fr 6. Juni 2008 schrieb Flemming Richter Mikkelsen: When it comes to GTA03, I will not buy one (because I buy the GTA02), so I will not be the target. Maybe QVGA is a good solution, or maybe it should be an option when you buy If I got that right, we just need to tune some of the LCD-driver settings, to get QVGA performance on a VGA screen(OWTTE). So the ONLY argument for a QVGA screen is the marginal lower price (and it allegedly looks better than a VGA in QVGA mode which I don't understand) - but this would clearly be no bargain at all if we go for more expensive offer of QVGA *OR* VGA option. Absolute nonsense, it costs 100 somecoin to replace the screen with a 30 somecoin cheaper one 'on customer order'. I opt for VGA and give us a way to drive it QVGA whenever speed is a main concern (think someone said this before?). For GTA03 I'd prefer to have the SAME LCM as GTA02, just to reduce design risk. NO capacitive ts, NO QVGA LCD screen! :-/ Just my 2 cents from HW-dev Full ACK. Once again, 03 is about evolution, not revolution. :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
How is the iPhone doing it? It has Half-VGA resolution and feels very smooth. it has a hardware-accelerated 3d chipset with full opengl drivers. and a very good chipset at that. that is why. as for half-vga. that's still HALF the pixels the freerunner/neo1973 have. *IF* we shipped the same screen - we'd have better performance. i find it interesting how so many peole rave about how great the iphone screen is - but its tech specs are not so hot. it's dpi is I would also like to have a better screen on the iPhone! If you open a web page you have always to zoom in the first step. pretty bad compared to the standard these days. but that sure as hell has not It would still be approx. 30% better than a QVGA 2'8... stopped it selling. :) this is why i ask - actual products and reality seem to show that dpi is not a major factor. at least as best i can tell. I have now thought a lot about why they have chossen 320x480. Most probably, they have spent a lot of money and useability research to find the **best compromise** between number of pixels, dpi, speed, readibility, information density and cost. Conclusion: * QVGA is worse (!) than the best compromise (as benchmarked by the iPhone) * VGA is better to use - which has its price. So how should one decide between two contradicting requirements? In the view of openness and unknown future applications, I would pay the price to go beyond the best compromise. Even if it needs a more expensive processor to get the speed. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 09:06:16 +0300 Flyin_bbb8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: actually - no. most linux developers and users i know need contacts/glasses and they can never read my screen and complain about my fonts being so small all the time (not that i will ever change. i love my small fonts!), but i ma going off anecdotal evidence over many years of me being one of a very small minority who can read and use such a high dpi with small fonts. i am bemused by so many vocal people here claiming to me what seems to be the reverse of my experience over many years - as well as going directly against actual product specs - eg, iphone dpi is very much lower than the neo, but a large margin, but users rave how nice it is. but there is definitely a i want as insane a dpi as i can get group here. this is for sure. the question is - is it really the majority of users. :) Well were all those 'never see them' people linux users and interested in openmoko? Haha we might just all be gifted people ! :D On 6/7/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 01:30:43 +0100 Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On 6 Jun 2008, at 23:19, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: ... Let's reverse the question - would you reduce the resolution of your desktop system? What do you currently have? 1024*1280 or more? You can still do everything like writing software, e-mail, web browsing, gaming. Probably even faster. But how would it appear? Future oriented or old fashioned? this is different - because it's me - my eyesight is better than 20/20 and i use the highest res i can get, when i can get it as i know i can read my miniscule 8pt or less fonts. but no one else can read my screen - they all complain that it's too hard and i am forever upping font sizes if i want anyone to read something on it. i know *I* am fine with it, but the vast majority of other people can't read my screen. this is why i am cutting myself out of this - trying to not be personal about it as i know already i'm an exception to the rule. Hi there, I haven't posted on this topic before because I'm not able to personally compare VGA QVGA 2 phone screens. However my eyesight is also better than 20/20, and display quality is generally quite visible to me. Your statements have seemed to say that QVGA is just as good as VGA for most people, and I have been sceptical of this - I find that my current phone (P990i) is QVGA, and that is rubbish for viewing webpages. Since you have 20/20 eyesight and can view tiny fonts at high resolutions I'm inclined to believe that a VGA screen will, for me, be better for displaying webpages PDFs - I'll be able to fit more on the screen and my eyesight will allow me to read the smaller text. So my vote is for VGA (or even widescreen VGA, like the PSP?). Stroller. it will be better - of course. what' i'm baffled about is why all of a sudden here a lot of excellent vision gifted people turn up, whereas in real life i never see them... :) -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 12:08:05 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: How is the iPhone doing it? It has Half-VGA resolution and feels very smooth. it has a hardware-accelerated 3d chipset with full opengl drivers. and a very good chipset at that. that is why. as for half-vga. that's still HALF the pixels the freerunner/neo1973 have. *IF* we shipped the same screen - we'd have better performance. i find it interesting how so many peole rave about how great the iphone screen is - but its tech specs are not so hot. it's dpi is I would also like to have a better screen on the iPhone! If you open a web page you have always to zoom in the first step. pretty bad compared to the standard these days. but that sure as hell has not It would still be approx. 30% better than a QVGA 2'8... stopped it selling. :) this is why i ask - actual products and reality seem to show that dpi is not a major factor. at least as best i can tell. I have now thought a lot about why they have chossen 320x480. Most probably, they have spent a lot of money and useability research to find the **best compromise** between number of pixels, dpi, speed, readibility, information density and cost. Conclusion: * QVGA is worse (!) than the best compromise (as benchmarked by the iPhone) * VGA is better to use - which has its price. also screens available at the time of development, would have factored in, cost, but remember - they posess a massive amount more compute grunt to drive their screen. we posess much less, so for the cpu power we have qvga is the equivalent of 320x480 on the iphone - if we follow the above logic. So how should one decide between two contradicting requirements? In the view of openness and unknown future applications, I would pay the price to go beyond the best compromise. Even if it needs a more expensive processor to get the speed. this is the thing - for now, processor isnt changing. so - it's resolution, or speed that has to give (or features graphically). -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:46:28 +0200 Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Friday 06 June 2008 20:07:01 Joerg Reisenweber wrote: Am Fr 6. Juni 2008 schrieb Flemming Richter Mikkelsen: When it comes to GTA03, I will not buy one (because I buy the GTA02), so I will not be the target. Maybe QVGA is a good solution, or maybe it should be an option when you buy If I got that right, we just need to tune some of the LCD-driver settings, to get QVGA performance on a VGA screen(OWTTE). So the ONLY argument for a QVGA screen is the marginal lower price (and it allegedly looks better than a VGA in QVGA mode which I don't understand) - but this would clearly be no bargain at all if we go for more expensive offer of QVGA *OR* VGA option. Absolute nonsense, it costs 100 somecoin to replace the screen with a 30 somecoin cheaper one 'on customer order'. I opt for VGA and give us a way to drive it QVGA whenever speed is a main concern (think someone said this before?). For GTA03 I'd prefer to have the SAME LCM as GTA02, just to reduce design risk. NO capacitive ts, NO QVGA LCD screen! :-/ Just my 2 cents from HW-dev Full ACK. Once again, 03 is about evolution, not revolution. vga to qvga for gta03 is a drop-in replacement. same size, form-factor, manufacturer, etc. etc. - so as such it fits in with evolution. as it is a drop-in, it is a decision that can be changed easily (for at least a while). for now we have a vga screen on the gta03. i asked this after a talk with will and i wanted to gauge what people would really think about qvga. i'm fairly agnostic about vga vs qvga myself - i'm on the fence with it. i see the benefits both ways. if we could have i'd have liked an intermediate res (eg 480x272), but we won't. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
IMHO: You can drive a VGA screen at QVGA, but you can't drive a QVGA screen at VGA... Cheers, Federico On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 2:16 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:46:28 +0200 Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Friday 06 June 2008 20:07:01 Joerg Reisenweber wrote: Am Fr 6. Juni 2008 schrieb Flemming Richter Mikkelsen: When it comes to GTA03, I will not buy one (because I buy the GTA02), so I will not be the target. Maybe QVGA is a good solution, or maybe it should be an option when you buy If I got that right, we just need to tune some of the LCD-driver settings, to get QVGA performance on a VGA screen(OWTTE). So the ONLY argument for a QVGA screen is the marginal lower price (and it allegedly looks better than a VGA in QVGA mode which I don't understand) - but this would clearly be no bargain at all if we go for more expensive offer of QVGA *OR* VGA option. Absolute nonsense, it costs 100 somecoin to replace the screen with a 30 somecoin cheaper one 'on customer order'. I opt for VGA and give us a way to drive it QVGA whenever speed is a main concern (think someone said this before?). For GTA03 I'd prefer to have the SAME LCM as GTA02, just to reduce design risk. NO capacitive ts, NO QVGA LCD screen! :-/ Just my 2 cents from HW-dev Full ACK. Once again, 03 is about evolution, not revolution. vga to qvga for gta03 is a drop-in replacement. same size, form-factor, manufacturer, etc. etc. - so as such it fits in with evolution. as it is a drop-in, it is a decision that can be changed easily (for at least a while). for now we have a vga screen on the gta03. i asked this after a talk with will and i wanted to gauge what people would really think about qvga. i'm fairly agnostic about vga vs qvga myself - i'm on the fence with it. i see the benefits both ways. if we could have i'd have liked an intermediate res (eg 480x272), but we won't. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Am So 8. Juni 2008 schrieb Carsten Haitzler: but there is definitely a i want as insane a dpi as i can get group here. this is for sure. the question is - is it really the majority of users. :) No it's not at all the question - other than for academic insight. If a VGA-screen isn't much more expensive than a Q, if we can drive a VGA as Q without problem or speed-penalty to do sane video etc., and if it's correct we used a VGA so far - we won't change this. No way! cheers jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 5:12 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 09:06:16 +0300 Flyin_bbb8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: actually - no. most linux developers and users i know need contacts/glasses and they can never read my screen and complain about my fonts being so small all the time (not that i will ever change. i love my small fonts!), but i ma going off anecdotal evidence over many years of me being one of a very small minority who can read and use such a high dpi with small fonts. i am bemused by so many vocal people here claiming to me what seems to be the reverse of my experience over many years - as well as going directly against actual product specs - eg, iphone dpi is very much lower than the neo, but a large margin, but users rave how nice it is. Without being able to see them side by side I'm always going to want the higher spec. I have my blackberry 7130g set to the smallest font size available and wish it could go smaller. I think the screen is 240 x 260, 2.4. However most other people have trouble reading my bb, so I'm willing to say I'm in the minority. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Steven Kurylo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 5:12 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 09:06:16 +0300 Flyin_bbb8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: actually - no. most linux developers and users i know need contacts/glasses and they can never read my screen and complain about my fonts being so small all the time (not that i will ever change. i love my small fonts!), but i ma going off anecdotal evidence over many years of me being one of a very small minority who can read and use such a high dpi with small fonts. i am bemused by so many vocal people here claiming to me what seems to be the reverse of my experience over many years - as well as going directly against actual product specs - eg, iphone dpi is very much lower than the neo, but a large margin, but users rave how nice it is. Without being able to see them side by side I'm always going to want the higher spec. I have my blackberry 7130g set to the smallest font size available and wish it could go smaller. I think the screen is 240 x 260, 2.4. However most other people have trouble reading my bb, so I'm willing to say I'm in the minority. I'm pretty surprised the QVGA idea's getting any traction. It's 2008. The GTA02 can be a little old-fashioned in exchange for it being open, but the smartphone software market is opening up, and people will become more willing to exchange some less openness for better hardware. The Freerunner I'll buy, but only due to current desires for a new toy to hack with. Its successors will need to be some advanced hardware -- freedom's only good on a platform that stays worthwhile. Frankly, I don't think too many people on this list are terribly price sensitive -- we're putting up with a lot of variability in shipping dates, hundreds of $$ for a phone whose software stacks will barely be operational at launch, and the lack of the sort of live support you'd get out of a decent phone shop. Put together a new hardware platform after this, and charge us for it! The novelty of openness is only worth so much by itself. This is all in the most sincere support of OM, but what kind of friend would I be if I didn't tell you the whole truth? -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
I agree with you that the VGA screen is very important for marketing the Freerunner - other comparable smartphones dont have that feature and are certainly no where near in terms of DPI. I am also assuming that OM wont discontinue the GTA02 (Freerunner) when GTA03 comes out. So mass market customers will have the choice of the VGA screen and at a cheaper price the QVGA screeen+camera. It helps OM as they have two distinct phones available on the same platform, consumers have choice and resellers have two models at two different price points. But one question that needs to be answered is - what is the cost saving of using a QVGA screen. It has to be significant to consider this option. Rakshat On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IMHO, reducing any Openmoko device to QVGA will be the end of the Openmoko project. And I have business reasons to wish that OM survives... There are plenty of QVGA designs out there and I even have an offer and a sample of a Linux smartphone at half the price of the OM. It works, has 90g, Quadband, and an integrated stylus. But QVGA. This makes the difference. I have shown a QVGA Acer n30 and the VGA Neo on FOSDEM and LinuxTag to the public. Everybody considered the VGA as better although the Acer is approx. 30% faster (because it has less rendering to do). So, where would be the uniqueness of OM devices? The average mass market customer doesn't care about full openness. Please consider basic rules of marketing. And, consider purchasing a Device Feature Roadmap from Strategy Analytics (they are really good) and ask what the percentage prediction for VGA vs. QVGA is for 2009. They are good in predictions because they look into the roadmaps of the component manufacturers. http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=NavigationHeadera0=42 - *Tracking 30+ enabling technologies *in the mobile devices market and provides analytical views on the major issues likely to drive or hinder diffusion of these technologies into the global wireless devices markets. The WDS service was first to market with a quarterly camera phone analysis and market share, and has extended that leadership position on technologies including WLAN, digital TV, CMOS and CCD cameras, Operating Systems and software, removable storage media, GPS, and other wireless connectivity technologies like Zigbee, NFC, and USB. - *Device Feature Roadmaps and evolution *across key global markets. Research in this area includes analysis of feature phone evolution with forecasts by device type; device vendor share by device type; device segmentation analysis by ASP tier, with forecasts; extended analysis of ultra-low handset diffusion drivers and forecasts; and in-depth analysis of key device types, i.e. TV enabled handsets and MP3/music enabled devices. http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=ReportAbstractViewera0=3736 http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=ReportAbstractViewera0=3899 Nikolaus Am 05.06.2008 um 14:32 schrieb rakshat hooja: quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure. I have a Sharp 903 with qvga, 2.4 inch, Nokia N95 with qvga, 2.4 inch and the Neo 1973 with VGA, 2.8 inch. By far the best screen for reading is the Sharp one. On closer examination you can see pixels which you dont on the Neo but the display just feels better, crisper and better on the eyes. When you view higher res photos the Neo display seems better but not by much. The N95 is also good when you look at it on its own and one has no problems reading anything but when kept next to the Neo 1973 and Sharp 903 one can tell the display is not in the same league. (the Sharp is also visible in the sun though I dont think its trans-reflective) The point I am trying to make is that the quality of LCM being used matters as much as qvga or vga. Qvga is sufficient for almost all needs on a mobile phone size device and would be great if it provides cost and speed improvements. But it has to be a really good quality QVGA. Personally I love the resolution and form factor of the PSP Slim LCM and would love to see something similar on GTA0X. Rakshat ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- -- Please use Firefox as your web browser. Its protects you from spyware and is also a very feature rich browser. www.firefox.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:09:55 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: IMHO, reducing any Openmoko device to QVGA will be the end of the Openmoko project. And I have business reasons to wish that OM survives... why would it be the end? the majority of phones in the non-japan world are qvga. it'd be no worse than most things out there. There are plenty of QVGA designs out there and I even have an offer and a sample of a Linux smartphone at half the price of the OM. It works, has 90g, Quadband, and an integrated stylus. But QVGA. This makes the difference. I have shown a QVGA Acer n30 and the VGA Neo on FOSDEM and LinuxTag to the public. Everybody considered the VGA as better although the Acer is approx. 30% faster (because it has less rendering to do). for us qvga would be give or take 3 times faster. thats a massie difference to 30%. So, where would be the uniqueness of OM devices? The average mass market customer doesn't care about full openness. the problem is - if you have a nice screen but the engine to power it is underpowered, you will suffer from complaints of it just being slow then instead. Please consider basic rules of marketing. And, consider purchasing a Device Feature Roadmap from Strategy Analytics (they are really good) and ask what the percentage prediction for VGA vs. QVGA is for 2009. They are good in predictions because they look into the roadmaps of the component manufacturers. http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=NavigationHeadera0=42 don't need them. just go to tokyo and look what's there on sale now. what's there will be what the rest of the world gets to doing 2 years later. [EMAIL PROTECTED] is now the top of the line display. but again - you need/want the graphics back end to fill that many pixels smoothly. right now we are pushing that at best. :) but even so - in the ultra-high-tech of japan's mobile phone telco's qvga is still VERY COMMON. if we want to play the my specs are better than your specs game right now, we will lose. we do not have the sourcing power of the competing vendors. we often can't even get the better components at all, let alone for a good price. we get what we can get. sure - we have a vga screen, but really, how good is that if the rest of the device can't smoothly handle the screen? it isn't just dpi. if all you measure a device on is dpi and pixel count, you are being silly. how it looks matters even more. dpi helps there, but so does compositing, translucency, smooth animation etc. in fact these probably have a much greater buy me effect. by far more. i'll put money on that bet actually (this is just speaking from having done eyecandy for over a decade - on linux, and having seen what it can do to attract people). to make things like compositing fast, smooth and nice, you must lower resolution to do it, or increase graphics power grunt. so given that graphicws grunt is not changing, cpu is not, the only 2 things that can change are screen resolution or the eyecandy has to remain toned down. so does vga buy you more sales for the average joe than a sexy bit of eyecandy at qvga? i'm leaning to qvga + eyecandy myself. Tracking 30+ enabling technologies in the mobile devices market and provides analytical views on the major issues likely to drive or hinder diffusion of these technologies into the global wireless devices markets. The WDS service was first to market with a quarterly camera phone analysis and market share, and has extended that leadership position on technologies including WLAN, digital TV, CMOS and CCD cameras, Operating Systems and software, removable storage media, GPS, and other wireless connectivity technologies like Zigbee, NFC, and USB. Device Feature Roadmaps and evolution across key global markets. Research in this area includes analysis of feature phone evolution with forecasts by device type; device vendor share by device type; device segmentation analysis by ASP tier, with forecasts; extended analysis of ultra-low handset diffusion drivers and forecasts; and in- depth analysis of key device types, i.e. TV enabled handsets and MP3/ music enabled devices. http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=ReportAbstractViewera0=3736 http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=ReportAbstractViewera0=3899 Nikolaus Am 05.06.2008 um 14:32 schrieb rakshat hooja: quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure. I have a Sharp 903 with qvga, 2.4 inch, Nokia N95 with qvga, 2.4 inch and the Neo 1973 with VGA, 2.8 inch. By far the best screen for reading is the Sharp one. On closer examination you can see pixels which you dont on
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Am 06.06.2008 um 09:45 schrieb Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman): On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:09:55 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: IMHO, reducing any Openmoko device to QVGA will be the end of the Openmoko project. And I have business reasons to wish that OM survives... why would it be the end? the majority of phones in the non-japan world are qvga. it'd be no worse than most things out there. Yes, the majority is. And has been brought out last year. So, is this the scale for the 2009 market? There was some shift with high end PDA displays. In approx. 2006 most QVGA models were dropped and only VGA remained. E.g. Acer n30 - n310. Another point from my discussions at LinuxTag: people want to have a successor for the Sharp Zaurus. The C750 introduced VGA in 2005 (or so). So, we don't get anyone who wanted to have a Zaurus successor! There are plenty of QVGA designs out there and I even have an offer and a sample of a Linux smartphone at half the price of the OM. It works, has 90g, Quadband, and an integrated stylus. But QVGA. This makes the difference. This is my core argument: I can buy a GTA03 / QVGA today. I don't have to wait for OM to develop such a reduced device. Therefore I want OM to stay with VGA because it is leading and unique... I have shown a QVGA Acer n30 and the VGA Neo on FOSDEM and LinuxTag to the public. Everybody considered the VGA as better although the Acer is approx. 30% faster (because it has less rendering to do). for us qvga would be give or take 3 times faster. thats a massie difference to 30%. The Acer n30 has a 266 MHz Samsung S3C2410, QVGA The Neo1973 has a S3C2410AL-26 with 266 MHz, VGA Rendering a quarter of pixels appears to be not all the tasks the processor has to do. I have not done a FPS comparison between both. So, where would be the uniqueness of OM devices? The average mass market customer doesn't care about full openness. the problem is - if you have a nice screen but the engine to power it is underpowered, you will suffer from complaints of it just being slow then instead. Yes, slowness is the most critical complaint. But how should I convince anyone to buy an OM if I also have a QVGA device which feels fast (based on OMAP 730 and some Qt 2.x)? Please consider basic rules of marketing. And, consider purchasing a Device Feature Roadmap from Strategy Analytics (they are really good) and ask what the percentage prediction for VGA vs. QVGA is for 2009. They are good in predictions because they look into the roadmaps of the component manufacturers. http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=NavigationHeadera0=42 don't need them. just go to tokyo and look what's there on sale now. what's there will be what the rest of the world gets to doing 2 years later. Not necessarily. The iPhone wasn't there 3 years ago. And i-mode never became popular. But I agree that you can see some technology there already built into devices. [EMAIL PROTECTED] is now the top of the line display. but again - you need/want the graphics back end to fill that many pixels smoothly. right now we are pushing that at best. :) How is the iPhone doing it? It has Half-VGA resolution and feels very smooth. but even so - in the ultra-high-tech of japan's mobile phone telco's qvga is still VERY COMMON. if we want to play the my specs are better than your specs game right now, we will lose. we do not have the sourcing power of the Unfortuntely, I have to play that game if I want to sell OM devices... competing vendors. we often can't even get the better components at all, let alone for a good price. we get what we can get. sure - we have a vga screen, but really, how good is that if the rest of the device can't smoothly handle the screen? it isn't just dpi. if all you measure a device on is dpi and pixel There is one strategic aspect to consider: If you keep the same display model and vendor, it saves engineering time and you can drive down cost by getting more and more volume from a single vendor. This may outweight any better price of a different vendor. count, you are being silly. how it looks matters even more. dpi helps there, but so does compositing, translucency, smooth animation etc. in fact these probably have a much greater buy me effect. by far more. i'll put money on that bet actually (this is just speaking from having done eyecandy for over a decade - on linux, and having seen what it can do to attract people). to make Yes. But this is in some conflict with providing an open platform that others can adapt to their user's needs. If it has QVGA it rules out many commercial projects where eye-candy and video speed is not that important but high information density. things like compositing fast, smooth and nice, you must lower resolution to do it, or increase graphics power grunt. so given that graphicws
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
All of the geeks that I have shown my GTA01 to have been in awe of it's high-res VGA screen. Whatever direction OpenMoko wants to go in, I'm sure geeks will always be a large part of their target demographic. To touch on Gabriel's comment, WVGA would be the same resolution as the Nokia N800 series but in a more compact screen. With that resolution perhaps the GTA03 would start tapping into other unexpected markets - for example some of the people who like the internet tablets and also eee-PC type devices. It would contribute to an incredible portable web-browsing experience (which is what those other devices are designed for, and why they sell) but in the GTA03 it would be built into your phone (which makes it the most portable of all). Justyn. 2008/6/5 rakshat hooja [EMAIL PROTECTED]: quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure. I have a Sharp 903 with qvga, 2.4 inch, Nokia N95 with qvga, 2.4 inch and the Neo 1973 with VGA, 2.8 inch. By far the best screen for reading is the Sharp one. On closer examination you can see pixels which you dont on the Neo but the display just feels better, crisper and better on the eyes. When you view higher res photos the Neo display seems better but not by much. The N95 is also good when you look at it on its own and one has no problems reading anything but when kept next to the Neo 1973 and Sharp 903 one can tell the display is not in the same league. (the Sharp is also visible in the sun though I dont think its trans-reflective) The point I am trying to make is that the quality of LCM being used matters as much as qvga or vga. Qvga is sufficient for almost all needs on a mobile phone size device and would be great if it provides cost and speed improvements. But it has to be a really good quality QVGA. Personally I love the resolution and form factor of the PSP Slim LCM and would love to see something similar on GTA0X. Rakshat ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Friday 06 June 2008 09:45:29 Carsten Haitzler wrote: the problem is - if you have a nice screen but the engine to power it is underpowered, you will suffer from complaints of it just being slow then instead. I'd like to wave the little please can we have a decent SoC flag again. Yes, the CPU is too slow to drive VGA... but don't fix the problem by putting a lower-spec LCD in, fix the _real_ issue - The CPU is too slooow! I assume you're concidering a new LCD for the GTA03? Fine, but if you're going for a revamp on the GTA04, stick the VGA display back in and give us (well, sell us) a SoC with some real graphics grunt. And I'm not talking about the Samsung s3c6400 - it is still way too underpowered. Maybe s3c6410 which seems to have a programmable 3D pipeline Go on, you know you want to... Pixel shaders... Compiz on a phone... windows which cast real, pixel-perfect soft shadows... Think what we could do with it! An entirely clutter (http://www.clutter-project.org/blog/) based UI! It's _worth_ a binary blob driver. Who knows, maybe samsung will even let you write an open source driver? (Don't think the s3c6410's 3D core is a PowerVR, seems to be something different?) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
I forgot to mention that not only is WVGA (800 x 480) the resolution of Nokia's N800 series internet tablets but also the Asus Eee PC (original), which is a tiny laptop for web browsing and has surprised the world by selling so well. Drool over this engadget post from 2006 about a 2.9 inch WVGA display: http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/27/hitachi-does-800-x-480-display-for-phones/ 2008/6/6 Justyn Butler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: All of the geeks that I have shown my GTA01 to have been in awe of it's high-res VGA screen. Whatever direction OpenMoko wants to go in, I'm sure geeks will always be a large part of their target demographic. To touch on Gabriel's comment, WVGA would be the same resolution as the Nokia N800 series but in a more compact screen. With that resolution perhaps the GTA03 would start tapping into other unexpected markets - for example some of the people who like the internet tablets and also eee-PC type devices. It would contribute to an incredible portable web-browsing experience (which is what those other devices are designed for, and why they sell) but in the GTA03 it would be built into your phone (which makes it the most portable of all). Justyn. 2008/6/5 rakshat hooja [EMAIL PROTECTED]: quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure. I have a Sharp 903 with qvga, 2.4 inch, Nokia N95 with qvga, 2.4 inch and the Neo 1973 with VGA, 2.8 inch. By far the best screen for reading is the Sharp one. On closer examination you can see pixels which you dont on the Neo but the display just feels better, crisper and better on the eyes. When you view higher res photos the Neo display seems better but not by much. The N95 is also good when you look at it on its own and one has no problems reading anything but when kept next to the Neo 1973 and Sharp 903 one can tell the display is not in the same league. (the Sharp is also visible in the sun though I dont think its trans-reflective) The point I am trying to make is that the quality of LCM being used matters as much as qvga or vga. Qvga is sufficient for almost all needs on a mobile phone size device and would be great if it provides cost and speed improvements. But it has to be a really good quality QVGA. Personally I love the resolution and form factor of the PSP Slim LCM and would love to see something similar on GTA0X. Rakshat ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Friday 06 June 2008 13:11:32 Justyn Butler wrote: To touch on Gabriel's comment, WVGA would be the same resolution as the Nokia N800 series but in a more compact screen. With that resolution perhaps the GTA03 would start tapping into other unexpected markets - for example some of the people who like the internet tablets and also eee-PC type devices. It would contribute to an incredible portable web-browsing experience (which is what those other devices are designed for, and why they sell) but in the GTA03 it would be built into your phone (which makes it the most portable of all). Amen to that. And while we're at it, lets not forget QWERTY :P signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:17:46 +0100 Justyn Butler justynbutler [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: I forgot to mention that not only is WVGA (800 x 480) the resolution of Nokia's N800 series internet tablets but also the Asus Eee PC (original), which is a tiny laptop for web browsing and has surprised the world by selling so well. Drool over this engadget post from 2006 about a 2.9 inch WVGA display: http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/27/hitachi-does-800-x-480-display-for-phones/ go to tokyo and play with the phones that already are on the shelf and use it... i did today... :) 2008/6/6 Justyn Butler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: All of the geeks that I have shown my GTA01 to have been in awe of it's high-res VGA screen. Whatever direction OpenMoko wants to go in, I'm sure geeks will always be a large part of their target demographic. To touch on Gabriel's comment, WVGA would be the same resolution as the Nokia N800 series but in a more compact screen. With that resolution perhaps the GTA03 would start tapping into other unexpected markets - for example some of the people who like the internet tablets and also eee-PC type devices. It would contribute to an incredible portable web-browsing experience (which is what those other devices are designed for, and why they sell) but in the GTA03 it would be built into your phone (which makes it the most portable of all). Justyn. 2008/6/5 rakshat hooja [EMAIL PROTECTED]: quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure. I have a Sharp 903 with qvga, 2.4 inch, Nokia N95 with qvga, 2.4 inch and the Neo 1973 with VGA, 2.8 inch. By far the best screen for reading is the Sharp one. On closer examination you can see pixels which you dont on the Neo but the display just feels better, crisper and better on the eyes. When you view higher res photos the Neo display seems better but not by much. The N95 is also good when you look at it on its own and one has no problems reading anything but when kept next to the Neo 1973 and Sharp 903 one can tell the display is not in the same league. (the Sharp is also visible in the sun though I dont think its trans-reflective) The point I am trying to make is that the quality of LCM being used matters as much as qvga or vga. Qvga is sufficient for almost all needs on a mobile phone size device and would be great if it provides cost and speed improvements. But it has to be a really good quality QVGA. Personally I love the resolution and form factor of the PSP Slim LCM and would love to see something similar on GTA0X. Rakshat ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:34:30 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Am 06.06.2008 um 09:45 schrieb Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman): Yes, slowness is the most critical complaint. But how should I convince anyone to buy an OM if I also have a QVGA device which feels fast (based on OMAP 730 and some Qt 2.x)? this is my dilemma. win with dpi and sharpness, but then lose in smoothness/speed. i lean a bit to- smoothness myself, but i want to hear the peanut gallery so to speak :) (please don't take offence! i'm seriously about listening that's why i ask!) don't need them. just go to tokyo and look what's there on sale now. what's there will be what the rest of the world gets to doing 2 years later. Not necessarily. The iPhone wasn't there 3 years ago. And i-mode never became popular. But I agree that you can see some technology there already built into devices. hmm. i lived in japan for 4 years. my experience is that japan introduces into their phones what the rest of the world does 2 years later. years ago multi-megapixel phones were out. 5 years ago the default was 2mpixel and qvga. the ipone really is not amazing in terms of tech specs. it's fairly far behind. [EMAIL PROTECTED] is now the top of the line display. but again - you need/want the graphics back end to fill that many pixels smoothly. right now we are pushing that at best. :) How is the iPhone doing it? It has Half-VGA resolution and feels very smooth. it has a hardware-accelerated 3d chipset with full opengl drivers. and a very good chipset at that. that is why. as for half-vga. that's still HALF the pixels the freerunner/neo1973 have. *IF* we shipped the same screen - we'd have better performance. i find it interesting how so many peole rave about how great the iphone screen is - but its tech specs are not so hot. it's dpi is pretty bad compared to the standard these days. but that sure as hell has not stopped it selling. :) this is why i ask - actual products and reality seem to show that dpi is not a major factor. at least as best i can tell. but even so - in the ultra-high-tech of japan's mobile phone telco's qvga is still VERY COMMON. if we want to play the my specs are better than your specs game right now, we will lose. we do not have the sourcing power of the Unfortuntely, I have to play that game if I want to sell OM devices... apple aren't! :) competing vendors. we often can't even get the better components at all, let alone for a good price. we get what we can get. sure - we have a vga screen, but really, how good is that if the rest of the device can't smoothly handle the screen? it isn't just dpi. if all you measure a device on is dpi and pixel There is one strategic aspect to consider: If you keep the same display model and vendor, it saves engineering time and you can drive down cost by getting more and more volume from a single vendor. This may outweight any better price of a different vendor. might - if you guys buy a few million phones. but in reality - we are such small volume it is hard enough even buying a screen at all! :) let alone being able to influence price by volume! :) count, you are being silly. how it looks matters even more. dpi helps there, but so does compositing, translucency, smooth animation etc. in fact these probably have a much greater buy me effect. by far more. i'll put money on that bet actually (this is just speaking from having done eyecandy for over a decade - on linux, and having seen what it can do to attract people). to make Yes. But this is in some conflict with providing an open platform that others can adapt to their user's needs. If it has QVGA it rules out many commercial projects where eye-candy and video speed is not that important but high information density. but then we have the reverse too. the question is - which is more important? in the world of phones the mass market is as it is higher volume, but again - it depends. i am wondering what projects would not be possible at qvga? seriously? ones you can actually read and use? this is my point. try and actual 2.8 screen at qvga for a while - try apps on it. they are still quite usable and visible. you may need to just deal with coarser fonts etc. but - it's still all there. :) i'm serious! if you have examples of projects that would ONLY work if we shipped a 2.8 285dpi screen but would not work on the same screen at all at 143dpi... i want to know! i suspect the reason would just be bad programming is why it won't work. and then the next would be it may display - but no one will be able to read it... :) but again - i want to know. things like compositing fast, smooth and nice, you must lower resolution to do it, or increase graphics power grunt. so given that graphicws grunt is not changing, cpu is not, the only 2 things that can change are screen
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:15:10 +0200 Tom Cooksey [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Friday 06 June 2008 09:45:29 Carsten Haitzler wrote: the problem is - if you have a nice screen but the engine to power it is underpowered, you will suffer from complaints of it just being slow then instead. I'd like to wave the little please can we have a decent SoC flag again. Yes, the CPU is too slow to drive VGA... but don't fix the problem by putting a lower-spec LCD in, fix the _real_ issue - The CPU is too slooow! i know. i know! :) preacher - converted. I assume you're concidering a new LCD for the GTA03? Fine, but if you're going for a revamp on the GTA04, stick the VGA display back in and give us (well, sell us) a SoC with some real graphics grunt. And I'm not talking about the Samsung s3c6400 - it is still way too underpowered. Maybe s3c6410 actually the 6400 would be fine imho. the 6410 isn't even available - so that's totally out of the picture. it's a scribble on someones product plan. until it's available in mass production - it doesn't exist. the 6410's 3d engine is also entirely undocumented. i can only find scant hints at its featureset. which seems to have a programmable 3D pipeline Go on, you know you want to... Pixel shaders... Compiz on a phone... windows which cast real, pixel-perfect soft shadows... Think what we could do with it! An entirely clutter (http://www.clutter-project.org/blog/) based UI! It's _worth_ a binary blob driver. Who knows, maybe samsung will even let you write an open source driver? (Don't think the s3c6410's 3D core is a PowerVR, seems to be something different?) it's not worth a binary blob and won't happen with a binary blob. we have made it clear that we are about things being open. we will stick to that. until we tell you otherwise :) -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
