Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournament at EGC, Leksand, Sweden
Nick Wedd wrote: CrazyStonepossible possible This is yes from my point of view. It all depends on the availability of an operator. What is the komi for the 9x9 tournament ? I would prefer 7.5 because it is also the komi of the Computer Olympiad. Thanks, Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Many Faces and UCT
I've been working on combining UCT search with Many Faces for about 6 months now. Since I'm entering the computer go tournaments at the go congresses, I decided to go public on the go servers. Mfgo12-0617 is Many Faces' engine with UCT search, running on a single 2.3 GHz CPU. It seems competitive with UCT/MC programs on 4 or 8 CPUs. The tryinguct programs on CGOS were my development experiments. I hope to have it running on multiple CPUs soon, but I don't know if it wills cale as well as the pure UCT/MC programs. David ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] linux and windows
It irks me a little that Linux people refuse to consider porting their programs to Windows :) With cygwin, it's pretty easy to port Linux programs. Since these programs work on CGOS they have a gtp interface, so they don't even need cygwin. Just recompile using gcc and use a free GTP windows GUI. It's pretty trivial. Not trolling for flames, just expressing an opinion. If someone is not willing to put in one day effort to port from Linux to Windows, why should they expect anyone else to put in one day effort to make Linux available as a platform? It seems Linux people are just as chauvinistic as Windows people :) David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Dailey Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:18 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournament at EGC, Leksand, Sweden Erik van der Werf wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steenvreter no yes Hi Nick, I never said yes. At this point it is rather unlikely that Steenvreter will participate. Steenvreter only runs on linux. Since the machines in Leksand run windows and remote computation is not allowed (which is funny considering the tournament is on KGS) I pretty much have to be present myself. That always irks me when I hear this kind of thing. The world is basically windows chauvinistic and it's common to find little consideration given to any other platform. Did you know that you can create your own linux environment without having to touch the machine you will be using? My wife has her own windows machine that she doesn't want me touching, but I have a complete linux install via an external hard drive that leaves her machine untouched. Although the install is specific to that machine, it is easy to build universal setups that will boot on any modern PC into Linux, without touching the hard drive of that machine.This would require that you bring a memory stick of some kind or perhaps an external USB hard drive.You can get big ones really cheap now, and they are very compact. You plug it into the USB port and then boot into Linux. In my opinion, the tournament organizers should do this for you and the other potential Linux participants since Linux is becoming more and more popular and apparently it is already very popular with Go programmers. There are several possibilities for setting up machines that could use either Windows or Linux that would not require major effort on their part - just one good Linux guy helping them. I also feel for the Mac people and also people that have built programs that run on networks of workstations or other potential supercomputer programs that would not be able to participate. - Don I did not find cheap flights for a short visit and I probably won't have time to attend the EGC for a full week, also housing seems to be getting difficult. So for now better assume that Steenvreter will *not* participate in Leksand. Erik ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournament at EGC, Leksand, Sweden
On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 6:18 PM, Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That always irks me when I hear this kind of thing. The world is basically windows chauvinistic and it's common to find little consideration given to any other platform. Did you know that you can create your own linux environment without having to touch the machine you will be using? My wife has her own windows machine that she doesn't want me touching, but I have a complete linux install via an external hard drive that leaves her machine untouched. Although the install is specific to that machine, it is easy to build universal setups that will boot on any modern PC into Linux, without touching the hard drive of that machine.This would require that you bring a memory stick of some kind or perhaps an external USB hard drive. You can get big ones really cheap now, and they are very compact. You plug it into the USB port and then boot into Linux. In my opinion, the tournament organizers should do this for you and the other potential Linux participants since Linux is becoming more and more popular and apparently it is already very popular with Go programmers. There are several possibilities for setting up machines that could use either Windows or Linux that would not require major effort on their part - just one good Linux guy helping them. I also feel for the Mac people and also people that have built programs that run on networks of workstations or other potential supercomputer programs that would not be able to participate. I have DSL-N (Damn Small Linux) on a USB stick so I can probably make something that boots. However I'm woried about the hardware support and network configuration (it has to connect to KGS). Also I think I would have to upgrade the kernel, but I don't know how easy that will be with DSL (and if I have time for it). Anyway, simply using an ssh connection to my machine at home would have been *much* easier... Erik ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
I don't have access to windows machines to test and I don't know anything about windows. I can barely use it. Although when my Go bot is complete, I would welcome anyone who wants to port it for me. :)-George On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:29 PM, David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It irks me a little that Linux people refuse to consider porting their programs to Windows :) With cygwin, it's pretty easy to port Linux programs. Since these programs work on CGOS they have a gtp interface, so they don't even need cygwin. Just recompile using gcc and use a free GTP windows GUI. It's pretty trivial. Not trolling for flames, just expressing an opinion. If someone is not willing to put in one day effort to port from Linux to Windows, why should they expect anyone else to put in one day effort to make Linux available as a platform? It seems Linux people are just as chauvinistic as Windows people :) David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Dailey Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:18 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournament at EGC, Leksand, Sweden Erik van der Werf wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steenvreter no yes Hi Nick, I never said yes. At this point it is rather unlikely that Steenvreter will participate. Steenvreter only runs on linux. Since the machines in Leksand run windows and remote computation is not allowed (which is funny considering the tournament is on KGS) I pretty much have to be present myself. That always irks me when I hear this kind of thing. The world is basically windows chauvinistic and it's common to find little consideration given to any other platform. Did you know that you can create your own linux environment without having to touch the machine you will be using? My wife has her own windows machine that she doesn't want me touching, but I have a complete linux install via an external hard drive that leaves her machine untouched. Although the install is specific to that machine, it is easy to build universal setups that will boot on any modern PC into Linux, without touching the hard drive of that machine.This would require that you bring a memory stick of some kind or perhaps an external USB hard drive.You can get big ones really cheap now, and they are very compact. You plug it into the USB port and then boot into Linux. In my opinion, the tournament organizers should do this for you and the other potential Linux participants since Linux is becoming more and more popular and apparently it is already very popular with Go programmers. There are several possibilities for setting up machines that could use either Windows or Linux that would not require major effort on their part - just one good Linux guy helping them. I also feel for the Mac people and also people that have built programs that run on networks of workstations or other potential supercomputer programs that would not be able to participate. - Don I did not find cheap flights for a short visit and I probably won't have time to attend the EGC for a full week, also housing seems to be getting difficult. So for now better assume that Steenvreter will *not* participate in Leksand. Erik ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournament at EGC, Leksand, Sweden
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Erik van der Werf wrote: I never said yes. At this point it is rather unlikely that Steenvreter will participate. Steenvreter only runs on linux. Since the machines in Leksand run windows and remote computation is not allowed (which is funny considering the tournament is on KGS) I pretty much have to be present myself. That always irks me when I hear this kind of thing. The world is basically windows chauvinistic and it's common to find little consideration given to any other platform. Did you know that you can create your own linux environment without having to touch the machine you will be using? My wife has her own windows machine that she doesn't want me touching, but I have a complete linux install via an external hard drive that leaves her machine untouched. Although the install is specific to that machine, it is easy to build universal setups that will boot on any modern PC into Linux, without touching the hard drive of that machine. This would require that you bring a memory stick of some kind or perhaps an external USB hard drive.You can get big ones really cheap now, and they are very compact. You plug it into the USB port and then boot into Linux. In my opinion, the tournament organizers should do this for you and the other potential Linux participants since Linux is becoming more and more popular and apparently it is already very popular with Go programmers. There are several possibilities for setting up machines that could use either Windows or Linux that would not require major effort on their part - just one good Linux guy helping them. I also feel for the Mac people and also people that have built programs that run on networks of workstations or other potential supercomputer programs that would not be able to participate. The rules are, you bring your own hardware or you use the hardware provided by the sponsors. The sponsors have provided Windows platforms. I guess these have USB ports. If someone wants to come along and insert a memory stick into a USB port, they can. If someone can't attend in person, but appoints an operator, then they can hope to rely on that operator to get the stick working and the machine booted into Linux. If they can't even find an operator, then they can hope that the operator I assign to them will have the competence, and the time (they may be operating several other programs) to get the stick etc. working. That's all I can offer. I have no experience of installing Linux myself. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Jason House [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] I don't own a computer with Windows on it, and that adds significant headache. It's hard to convince friends/work to install cygwin for this kind of purpose. Portability between Linux flavors is not guaranteed. For example, HouseBot does not run on Macs. Although it is possible that there are portability issues between Linux flavors, your example has nothing to do with it: Macs don't usually run Linux... ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournament at EGC, Leksand, Sweden
Don Dailey wrote: I also feel for the Mac people and also people that have built programs that run on networks of workstations or other potential supercomputer programs that would not be able to participate. - Don Although I am one of the participants with access to non-conventional computational power, I must say I like the idea of uniform-platform tournaments. Uniform platform allows to avoid comments such as that program won because it had better hardware, or the frustration of the poor participants that don't have access to big hardware. I like tournaments such as the Computer Olympiad that allow anything, too. It is particularly cool to meet participants such as Hideki who uses a network of playstations. But it does not mean that uniform-platform is evil. It is a different kind of tournament format, that also has its qualities. Nick is in a better position to comment about this, but I also suppose that when a sponsor such as Toshiba provides hardware and prizes, it may not be very happy to see a program win with non-Toshiba hardware. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
On Jul 17, 2008, at 1:12 PM, Álvaro Begué [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Jason House [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] I don't own a computer with Windows on it, and that adds significant headache. It's hard to convince friends/work to install cygwin for this kind of purpose. Portability between Linux flavors is not guaranteed. For example, HouseBot does not run on Macs. Although it is possible that there are portability issues between Linux flavors, your example has nothing to do with it: Macs don't usually run Linux... I should have said Unix flavors or Linux/Unix flavors. Mac OS X uses a BSD kernel. HouseBot compiles, but at runtime gets a bus error (segmentation fault). Something is going wrong in the D libraries I use..___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Jason House [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 17, 2008, at 1:12 PM, Álvaro Begué [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Jason House [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] I don't own a computer with Windows on it, and that adds significant headache. It's hard to convince friends/work to install cygwin for this kind of purpose. Portability between Linux flavors is not guaranteed. For example, HouseBot does not run on Macs. Although it is possible that there are portability issues between Linux flavors, your example has nothing to do with it: Macs don't usually run Linux... I should have said Unix flavors or Linux/Unix flavors. Mac OS X uses a BSD kernel. HouseBot compiles, but at runtime gets a bus error (segmentation fault). Something is going wrong in the D libraries I use..___ Then I guess this is a consequence of the fact that you use a relatively immature programming language. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
David Fotland wrote: It irks me a little that Linux people refuse to consider porting their programs to Windows :) With cygwin, it's pretty easy to port Linux programs. Since these programs work on CGOS they have a gtp interface, so they don't even need cygwin. Just recompile using gcc and use a free GTP windows GUI. It's pretty trivial. Not trolling for flames, just expressing an opinion. If someone is not willing to put in one day effort to port from Linux to Windows, why should they expect anyone else to put in one day effort to make Linux available as a platform? It seems Linux people are just as chauvinistic as Windows people :) This is not the case however.Windows in the dominate desktop OS and as a result it has become like societies dominated by one race - they tend to call the shots and dismiss the needs of the other - it seems to be what human beings gravitate to. If Linux was the dominant OS you would see it working the opposite way and the Windows users would be dismissed as irrelevant. I'm not commenting on the morality of the users of each system - just a statement of how things are. You would never see a tournament set up such as this with only Linux machines and with the requirement that windows users must bring their own machines.Even though many Windows user assume that only Windows is important, Linux users don't make that assumption - we are used to living in your world, so to speak, even if we feel our OS is superior. I don't fault anyone for believe they work with the best OS, whatever that may be, but it irks me when they show the dismissive attitude. Even though you attached a smiley face to your first statement, it basically reveal the attitude of most Windows users, the belief that everyone else should accommodate them. Of course it doesn't matter if the price must be paid several times by the Linux people. One person could set up the memory stick solution 1 time, or you could require EACH and every Linux person to do the port to a system they may not understand that well. That's where the chauvinism comes in, it probably seems like a perfectly reasonable solution to require several people to do work instead of just one when it's not YOU required to do the work.That's chauvinism. I noticed that a LOT of programmers have been able to distribute BOTH a windows and linux version of their program. I see this with Chess and GO. I very strongly suspect that in most cases, if BOTH versions are available you will find that the developer is a Linux programmer - not a Windows programmer.I know there are a few exceptions to this, but the general mentality of many Windows programmers is not such that a Linux version is likely to happen. Just one last thing to give you a sense of where I am coming from.A while back I had a network problem and called up my service provider to see if there was an outage or whether I had some problem in my own configuration. The guy wanted to help me fix it and started hammering me with questions, such as is the modem plugged in, etc. Probably working from some default troubleshooting list he was trained to use, he asked me to do some Windows thingy, please click your mouse on the control panel ... I told him my computer was running Linux. He asked me, what's linux? I informed him that it was a different operating system and then he immediately blurted out gleefully, Well that's your problem!!! The genius on the other end thought he had solved the problem and suggested that I go out and purchase windows and then it would work. Of course I remained cool, and even saw some humor in this. This poor sucker was another victim of the whole marketing propaganda machinery of the Microsoft Corporation, and probably believed that Bill Gates invented the internet. He was certainly ignorant of the fact that the internet is Unix based and windows connectivity is an oxymoron. Throughout the years I have always had problems with service providers and the internet. My connection has always worked just find on Linux boxes, but there was one case where I had to argue with a DSL provider to get him to sell me the DSL connection - he was 99% sure it just wouldn't work on Unix. So David, this is what I mean by chauvinism - not a moral statement but a general uphill battle that Windows users don't know a thing about. A basic ignorance and unwillingness to yield that we have had to fight from time to time. Despite what you may think, it can't just be dismissed with a hand wave and by saying we are the ones unwilling to yield. - Don David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Dailey Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:18 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournament at EGC, Leksand, Sweden
Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
I know how to port to windows.I can help you with this. - Don George Dahl wrote: I don't have access to windows machines to test and I don't know anything about windows. I can barely use it. Although when my Go bot is complete, I would welcome anyone who wants to port it for me. :)-George On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:29 PM, David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It irks me a little that Linux people refuse to consider porting their programs to Windows :) With cygwin, it's pretty easy to port Linux programs. Since these programs work on CGOS they have a gtp interface, so they don't even need cygwin. Just recompile using gcc and use a free GTP windows GUI. It's pretty trivial. Not trolling for flames, just expressing an opinion. If someone is not willing to put in one day effort to port from Linux to Windows, why should they expect anyone else to put in one day effort to make Linux available as a platform? It seems Linux people are just as chauvinistic as Windows people :) David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Dailey Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:18 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournament at EGC, Leksand, Sweden Erik van der Werf wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steenvreter no yes Hi Nick, I never said yes. At this point it is rather unlikely that Steenvreter will participate. Steenvreter only runs on linux. Since the machines in Leksand run windows and remote computation is not allowed (which is funny considering the tournament is on KGS) I pretty much have to be present myself. That always irks me when I hear this kind of thing. The world is basically windows chauvinistic and it's common to find little consideration given to any other platform. Did you know that you can create your own linux environment without having to touch the machine you will be using? My wife has her own windows machine that she doesn't want me touching, but I have a complete linux install via an external hard drive that leaves her machine untouched. Although the install is specific to that machine, it is easy to build universal setups that will boot on any modern PC into Linux, without touching the hard drive of that machine.This would require that you bring a memory stick of some kind or perhaps an external USB hard drive.You can get big ones really cheap now, and they are very compact. You plug it into the USB port and then boot into Linux. In my opinion, the tournament organizers should do this for you and the other potential Linux participants since Linux is becoming more and more popular and apparently it is already very popular with Go programmers. There are several possibilities for setting up machines that could use either Windows or Linux that would not require major effort on their part - just one good Linux guy helping them. I also feel for the Mac people and also people that have built programs that run on networks of workstations or other potential supercomputer programs that would not be able to participate. - Don I did not find cheap flights for a short visit and I probably won't have time to attend the EGC for a full week, also housing seems to be getting difficult. So for now better assume that Steenvreter will *not* participate in Leksand. Erik ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: linux and windows
Dave Dyer wrote: At 09:29 AM 7/17/2008, David Fotland wrote: It irks me a little that Linux people refuse to consider porting their programs to Windows :) With cygwin, it's pretty easy to port Linux programs. Isn't it the case that Cygwin is no help if the program has a GUI. Yes, if you have a GUI that is not built around a cross-platform library. Even though I hate windows and don't use it, I still always try to accommodate Windows users and of course I like the Mac platform (it is Unix based) and try to support it too. There are cross-platform ways to accommodate GUI's, but that's not much help if your program has already been developed. For the same basic reason I avoid ASP or any proprietary solution to anything if I can avoid it. One of my clients uses ASP and I convinced them to move to PHP in their web stuff - we are trying to converge to open standards and want the flexibility to be able to run on ANYTHING, especially not being tied down to things that require expensive proprietary solutions. - don ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
Álvaro Begué wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Jason House [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] I don't own a computer with Windows on it, and that adds significant headache. It's hard to convince friends/work to install cygwin for this kind of purpose. Portability between Linux flavors is not guaranteed. For example, HouseBot does not run on Macs. Although it is possible that there are portability issues between Linux flavors, your example has nothing to do with it: Macs don't usually run Linux... And portability between Linux versions is probably still much stronger that portability between Windows versions. In any case, its almost always solved by a simple recompile. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: linux and windows
terry mcintyre wrote: A cygwin port can't really be considered a windows application since it requires that the windows user install cygwin. This is not for the faint of heart. There are many good reasons why some people develop on Linux. Porting between Linux and Windows is not trivial. A better way to run linux programs on borrowed Windows machines might be to burn a LiveCD with one's program -- something akin to the Hikarunix CD, which tournament organizers could then pop into a computer, boot, and start the program. But you can compile using mingw32 to build native applications.I recently compiled my chess program and it runs fine, at least on recent windows OS versions - of course it is a UCI program which means the GUI is a separate windows program. - Don ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournament at EGC, Leksand, Sweden
Rémi Coulom wrote: Don Dailey wrote: I also feel for the Mac people and also people that have built programs that run on networks of workstations or other potential supercomputer programs that would not be able to participate. - Don Although I am one of the participants with access to non-conventional computational power, I must say I like the idea of uniform-platform tournaments. Uniform platform allows to avoid comments such as that program won because it had better hardware, or the frustration of the poor participants that don't have access to big hardware. Uniform platform tournaments have their place definitely.They basically isolate programmer skill so they can serve well as contests of pure programming skill where the strength of the contestants are of secondary importance. It would be like a Nascar race, where all the drivers were given the same car off a dealers lot to see who the best driver is. However, by their nature they are exclusionary.A uniform platform tournament is almost certainly going to reward windows programmers. Although you could have such a tournament for any platform, the reality is such that most platforms would be impractical. Can you imagine having a uniform platform DOS tournament?Most people don't care about pure DOS programs. I feel that anything goes tournaments are far more prestigious and far more compatible with the (unstated?) goal of trying to produce the strongest possible mechanical player. Can you imagine, for instance, a computer world chess championship that would not allow Hydra, Deep Blue or would exclude anything that happened to have superior technology in it? - Don I like tournaments such as the Computer Olympiad that allow anything, too. It is particularly cool to meet participants such as Hideki who uses a network of playstations. But it does not mean that uniform-platform is evil. It is a different kind of tournament format, that also has its qualities. Nick is in a better position to comment about this, but I also suppose that when a sponsor such as Toshiba provides hardware and prizes, it may not be very happy to see a program win with non-Toshiba hardware. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: linux and windows
All, Another option is to use a VM, MS's Virtual PC (free), VMWare's offering (free for non-commercial use) or any of the flavors of the open source Xen. Basically, you can set up an install of whatever target environment you use as a client OS. And then install and configure all you need and want natively within the Client OS without having to worry that the host OS is Windows. And for those of you who will say this is inefficient - I would just reply with, not participating at all is less efficient than at least participating with something inside a VM. There is no need for perfection, as in having every little tiny bit of performance eeked out of a box/processor/memory. If you can get +90% (which is what all the above VM creators claim for each of theirs), then you can participate and gain more experience for your particular computer_go player. Jim - Original Message From: Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 1:31:21 PM Subject: Re: [computer-go] Re: linux and windows terry mcintyre wrote: A cygwin port can't really be considered a windows application since it requires that the windows user install cygwin. This is not for the faint of heart. There are many good reasons why some people develop on Linux. Porting between Linux and Windows is not trivial. A better way to run linux programs on borrowed Windows machines might be to burn a LiveCD with one's program -- something akin to the Hikarunix CD, which tournament organizers could then pop into a computer, boot, and start the program. But you can compile using mingw32 to build native applications.I recently compiled my chess program and it runs fine, at least on recent windows OS versions - of course it is a UCI program which means the GUI is a separate windows program. - Don ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: tournaments
My program runs on a cluster ... no way around that. Cheers, David On 17, Jul 2008, at 12:31 PM, Dave Dyer wrote: One possibility is to use one of the VM products that are available to host unix on a windows machine, or windows on a unix machine. VirtualBox looks particilarly promising, since it's free and available for all the common platforms. There is some performance penalty associated with the virtualization, but I would expect for a CPU bound Go program this would be minimal. If the performance penalty is significant enough, it could be equalized by running ALL programs in VM boxes. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008, David Fotland wrote: Not trolling for flames, just expressing an opinion. If someone is not willing to put in one day effort to port from Linux to Windows, why should they expect anyone else to put in one day effort to make Linux available as a platform? It seems Linux people are just as chauvinistic as Windows people :) Because it's 1 (?) days work for EVERYBODY who has to port, and not just for one person at the event. Also, not everybody has a windows computer ... Christoph ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: linux and windows
What is the best way to compile for 64 Windows if you don't have a 64 bit windows OS? I want to compile my chess program for 64 bit windows (it uses 64 bit data structures and is actually 2X faster on 64 bit linux over 32 bit linux.) I have seen mingw64 but have heard that it is very buggy. Does anyone have any experience with this? Jim's email reminded me of something I wanted to look into.Can these virtual boxes emulate a 64 bit machine? - Don Jim O'Flaherty, Jr. wrote: All, Another option is to use a VM, MS's Virtual PC (free), VMWare's offering (free for non-commercial use) or any of the flavors of the open source Xen. Basically, you can set up an install of whatever target environment you use as a client OS. And then install and configure all you need and want natively within the Client OS without having to worry that the host OS is Windows. And for those of you who will say this is inefficient - I would just reply with, not participating at all is less efficient than at least participating with something inside a VM. There is no need for perfection, as in having every little tiny bit of performance eeked out of a box/processor/memory. If you can get +90% (which is what all the above VM creators claim for each of theirs), then you can participate and gain more experience for your particular computer_go player. Jim - Original Message From: Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 1:31:21 PM Subject: Re: [computer-go] Re: linux and windows terry mcintyre wrote: A cygwin port can't really be considered a windows application since it requires that the windows user install cygwin. This is not for the faint of heart. There are many good reasons why some people develop on Linux. Porting between Linux and Windows is not trivial. A better way to run linux programs on borrowed Windows machines might be to burn a LiveCD with one's program -- something akin to the Hikarunix CD, which tournament organizers could then pop into a computer, boot, and start the program. But you can compile using mingw32 to build native applications.I recently compiled my chess program and it runs fine, at least on recent windows OS versions - of course it is a UCI program which means the GUI is a separate windows program. - Don ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
Seems David instigated a nice little platform war :) Oh, platform discussions are sooo 1990s. Don't you guys use a platform independent language yet? OK, time to duck... Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournament at EGC, Leksand, Sweden
David Doshay wrote: Had I known that I might have participated. I thought I would have to ship my cluster, and with my previous traveling cluster I thought it would never get past the US airport security ... is was such a mass of wires and parts that it hardly even looked like a computer. Cheers, David Note however that you would have probably not been allowed to participate together with GNU Go (I am not completely sure). Since nobody registered GNU Go this year, it may not be too late to enter. But the availability of internet connection in Beijing has not been confirmed yet. Also, you should be able to play on a local computer as a backup in case of connection problem. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
Christoph Birk wrote: On Thu, 17 Jul 2008, David Fotland wrote: Not trolling for flames, just expressing an opinion. If someone is not willing to put in one day effort to port from Linux to Windows, why should they expect anyone else to put in one day effort to make Linux available as a platform? It seems Linux people are just as chauvinistic as Windows people :) Because it's 1 (?) days work for EVERYBODY who has to port, and not just for one person at the event. Also, not everybody has a windows computer ... Although you don't absolutely need a Windows computer to cross compile for Windows using mingw32 it is very helpful to have it. I did this without Windows and tested it with wine (a windows emulator) and it worked with Wine, but not on an actual Windows machine. This surprised me.I think you still probably need a windows machine in order to get a valid test, even if it seems to work.In my case I had to repeatedly try things and send a version back and forth to my tester person until I got it right - a very ugly situation. But all of this presents another issue - most of us don't like to be forced to work in another environment. It really is far more logical to accommodate the programmers when it is not so difficult to do so and especially when it requires much less total effort than making several of them accommodate you because you don't want to be bothered. This is surely much more likely to produce a smoothly running tournament than to force some of the players out of their element and requiring them to cope the best they can. - Don Christoph ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: tournaments
--- On Thu, 7/17/08, David Doshay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: David Doshay [EMAIL PROTECTED] My program runs on a cluster ... no way around that. David, you're just not taking full advantage of Virtualization ... simply emulate multiple VMs on a single computer; there may be a performance penalty. ;) I do appreciate having some head-to-head competitions using similar hardware, but I also want to see unlimited open class competition, where people are able to run multiprocessors, and learn to scale algorithms to big-n processors. We'll all have 1000 processors on our desktops in a few years anyhow, might as well iron out the problems now. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
Don Dailey wrote: But all of this presents another issue - most of us don't like to be forced to work in another environment. It really is far more logical to accommodate the programmers when it is not so difficult to do so and especially when it requires much less total effort than making several of them accommodate you because you don't want to be bothered. This is surely much more likely to produce a smoothly running tournament than to force some of the players out of their element and requiring them to cope the best they can. Your post seems to suggest that Nick is not making enough efforts for that tournament, and I think that would be very unfair to him. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: tournaments
On 17, Jul 2008, at 1:34 PM, terry mcintyre wrote: --- On Thu, 7/17/08, David Doshay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: David Doshay [EMAIL PROTECTED] My program runs on a cluster ... no way around that. David, you're just not taking full advantage of Virtualization ... simply emulate multiple VMs on a single computer; there may be a performance penalty. ;) It is actually one step easier than that. MPI lets one do it directly without all of the multiple VMs. And hey, just like your smiley indicates, if I emulate 64 machines I only have a factor of maybe 65 in speed hit!! Wow, my program could finish a one hour game in only 65 hours! I do appreciate having some head-to-head competitions using similar hardware, but I also want to see unlimited open class competition, where people are able to run multiprocessors, and learn to scale algorithms to big-n processors. We'll all have 1000 processors on our desktops in a few years anyhow, might as well iron out the problems now. getting further off-topic in a somewhat off-topic thread, I have my doubts about common desktops moving much past 8 or so cores. That is about the max number of things most users will try to run at one time. Cheers, David ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournament at EGC, Leksand, Sweden
On 17, Jul 2008, at 1:02 PM, Rémi Coulom wrote: David Doshay wrote: Had I known that I might have participated. I thought I would have to ship my cluster, and with my previous traveling cluster I thought it would never get past the US airport security ... is was such a mass of wires and parts that it hardly even looked like a computer. Cheers, David Note however that you would have probably not been allowed to participate together with GNU Go (I am not completely sure). Since nobody registered GNU Go this year, it may not be too late to enter. But the availability of internet connection in Beijing has not been confirmed yet. Also, you should be able to play on a local computer as a backup in case of connection problem. Rémi I would never presume that I could find enough local Macs with enough memory, networking equipment, and enough time to install MPI and make sure that everything was working ... maybe next year, when we also think we will be less dependent upon GNU Go. But predicting the progress made in software is difficult. Cheers, David ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Mobile phone go player/client/recorder...
All, What's available in terms of a quality Go game player/client/recorder for mobile phones? I have a Windows Mobile 6 phone (ATT Tilt - 8925) and would like to be able to play the occasional casual game, be able to connect and play with someone else on their mobile phone or desktop PC and to be able to use the client to record games in progress and store them as .sgf files. I have already been to http://www.vieka.com/gnugo/ and that is a very nice start. However, it does not have the ability to play someone else except on the same phone. And it does not have a way to save a game or generate an .SGF. Any URLs to existing products would be deeply appreciated. BTW, it is not very useful that the game is named Go. I tried to Google for Windows Mobile Go Game and got lots of useless hits. The word Go is too common and only has a very weak relation to the Asian board game. Thank you, Jim___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
Mark Boon wrote: Seems David instigated a nice little platform war :) Oh, platform discussions are sooo 1990s. Don't you guys use a platform independent language yet? OK, time to duck... I'm not going to throw anything at you.But you should duck anyone in case something I throw at someone else happens to fly your way :-) Of course C can be more or less platform independent if you take some care. It's still not convenient for users of either platform to deal with the other platforms idiosyncrasies if they are not used to it - even if just to run a program.I always feel like a duck out of water on those rare occasions where I use my wifes windows computer. I can't seem to get much done in Windows without working the hell out of the mouse. Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Re: linux and windows
Of course C can be more or less platform independent if you take some care. Purely for engine code, that's true. Standard windows has APIs that are nearly compatible with xxux for command line initialization and ordinary file and network operations. If your program has ANY gui at all though, you're pretty much screwed. Mac Windows and Linux GUIs are about as far apart as any three platforms can be. There are lots of compatibility solutions, including your choice of platform independent languages; but they all create essentially a fourth platform that you have to target, and once again, you're screwed unless you started that way. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
Rémi Coulom wrote: Don Dailey wrote: But all of this presents another issue - most of us don't like to be forced to work in another environment. It really is far more logical to accommodate the programmers when it is not so difficult to do so and especially when it requires much less total effort than making several of them accommodate you because you don't want to be bothered. This is surely much more likely to produce a smoothly running tournament than to force some of the players out of their element and requiring them to cope the best they can. Your post seems to suggest that Nick is not making enough efforts for that tournament, and I think that would be very unfair to him. This is nothing more that just a suggestion. I didn't even know that Nick was the one organizing this and I assume he will do a good job as he always does. My suggestion to Nick, is to just delegate this idea to a Linux expert if that's what he wants to do, otherwise not to worry about it. - Don Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: tournaments
David Doshay wrote: On 17, Jul 2008, at 1:34 PM, terry mcintyre wrote: --- On Thu, 7/17/08, David Doshay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: David Doshay [EMAIL PROTECTED] My program runs on a cluster ... no way around that. David, you're just not taking full advantage of Virtualization ... simply emulate multiple VMs on a single computer; there may be a performance penalty. ;) It is actually one step easier than that. MPI lets one do it directly without all of the multiple VMs. And hey, just like your smiley indicates, if I emulate 64 machines I only have a factor of maybe 65 in speed hit!! Wow, my program could finish a one hour game in only 65 hours! I do appreciate having some head-to-head competitions using similar hardware, but I also want to see unlimited open class competition, where people are able to run multiprocessors, and learn to scale algorithms to big-n processors. We'll all have 1000 processors on our desktops in a few years anyhow, might as well iron out the problems now. getting further off-topic in a somewhat off-topic thread, I have my doubts about common desktops moving much past 8 or so cores. That is about the max number of things most users will try to run at one time. Hmmm. I could use as many cores as you can give me - but the average won't, just as you say. The issue I think will come down to software technology - will applications start popping up that are able to utilize more and more cores? If so, then more cores will always equal more usable capability, even for non-savvy users. Maybe the truth is somewhere between?I already know of people with core 2 duo computers that remain mostly idle even as they are sitting in front of them. - Don Cheers, David ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] linux and windows
I didn't mean to start a war. I was reacting to the word chauvinistic which to me implies a willful, unfair bias. I use linux and Windows. I ship Windows products solely because the installed base is much higher. If I were to set up a tournament and only had time to support one platform, it would be windows, not because of bias, but because it is more popular and easier to set up (because the person setting it up will be more familiar with it, or because it my machine comes with it preinstalled and pretested). I don't think there is any chauvinism here, so there is no need to insult the organizers by calling names. Windows is just more popular. I've participated in tournaments where the only machines were Linux. I didn't call the orgainizers chauvinistic. I just turned off the gui, recompiled, and participated. I'm not calling the organizers chauvinistic because they only support GTP and KGS. GTP has become more popular than the old GMP tournament protocol, so now I support it. No big deal, and no need to complain. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Boon Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 12:54 PM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] linux and windows Seems David instigated a nice little platform war :) Oh, platform discussions are sooo 1990s. Don't you guys use a platform independent language yet? OK, time to duck... Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: tournaments
The apps will arrive. Toshiba plans to sell a laptop with a modified form of the Cell processor; it has 4 SPEs which do quite a job of handling blu-ray DVDs and also use the laptop's webcam to allow user movement and facial expressions to control the computer. ( I can just see it - user frowns - was that the wrong DVD? shall we try another selection? ) Now, the real mystery is, will future software somehow expand to use all that processing power, so that future computers appear to be even slower than those of today? Unfortunately, that is the most probable outcome. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
Ahh, no wonder I have 40 unread messages from today. Thanks, David. :) David Fotland wrote: It irks me a little that Linux people refuse to consider porting their programs to Windows :) With cygwin, it's pretty easy to port Linux programs. Since these programs work on CGOS they have a gtp interface, so they don't even need cygwin. Just recompile using gcc and use a free GTP windows GUI. It's pretty trivial. Not trolling for flames, just expressing an opinion. If someone is not willing to put in one day effort to port from Linux to Windows, why should they expect anyone else to put in one day effort to make Linux available as a platform? It seems Linux people are just as chauvinistic as Windows people :) David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Dailey Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:18 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournament at EGC, Leksand, Sweden Erik van der Werf wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steenvreter no yes Hi Nick, I never said yes. At this point it is rather unlikely that Steenvreter will participate. Steenvreter only runs on linux. Since the machines in Leksand run windows and remote computation is not allowed (which is funny considering the tournament is on KGS) I pretty much have to be present myself. That always irks me when I hear this kind of thing. The world is basically windows chauvinistic and it's common to find little consideration given to any other platform. Did you know that you can create your own linux environment without having to touch the machine you will be using? My wife has her own windows machine that she doesn't want me touching, but I have a complete linux install via an external hard drive that leaves her machine untouched. Although the install is specific to that machine, it is easy to build universal setups that will boot on any modern PC into Linux, without touching the hard drive of that machine.This would require that you bring a memory stick of some kind or perhaps an external USB hard drive.You can get big ones really cheap now, and they are very compact. You plug it into the USB port and then boot into Linux. In my opinion, the tournament organizers should do this for you and the other potential Linux participants since Linux is becoming more and more popular and apparently it is already very popular with Go programmers. There are several possibilities for setting up machines that could use either Windows or Linux that would not require major effort on their part - just one good Linux guy helping them. I also feel for the Mac people and also people that have built programs that run on networks of workstations or other potential supercomputer programs that would not be able to participate. - Don I did not find cheap flights for a short visit and I probably won't have time to attend the EGC for a full week, also housing seems to be getting difficult. So for now better assume that Steenvreter will *not* participate in Leksand. Erik ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] linux and windows
I strongly agree with Remi. Nick is going out of his way to allow people to enter, and putting a lot of time to set this up. He deserves praise and thanks, not complaints. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rémi Coulom Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 1:35 PM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] linux and windows Don Dailey wrote: But all of this presents another issue - most of us don't like to be forced to work in another environment. It really is far more logical to accommodate the programmers when it is not so difficult to do so and especially when it requires much less total effort than making several of them accommodate you because you don't want to be bothered. This is surely much more likely to produce a smoothly running tournament than to force some of the players out of their element and requiring them to cope the best they can. Your post seems to suggest that Nick is not making enough efforts for that tournament, and I think that would be very unfair to him. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournament at EGC, Leksand, Sweden
Well, I only wanted to participate in 9x9. My program is strong enough to not need help from amateurs. For 19x19, if anyone really wants to cheat it is still relatively easy, even under the current restrictions. Personally I think strength of the programs should be irrelevant. The organizers should simply require that the 'thinking process' is visible and that log files can be inspected by the tournament director in case of a dispute. Erik On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 8:25 PM, David Doshay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The programs would have to get strong enough that it would be hard to find some human willing to hide behind the network connection for the purpose of cheating. We could debate that level, but it would have to be at least into the pro ranks. Until then, I have to build traveling racks to hold my cluster, and it is a pain. Cheers, David On 17, Jul 2008, at 10:08 AM, Erik van der Werf wrote: In what way would computer Go need to evolve? Erik On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 6:50 PM, David Doshay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Someday computer Go will evolve enough to have enough trust for remote computing. But not today, unfortunately. Cheers, David On 17, Jul 2008, at 9:39 AM, Erik van der Werf wrote: ... simply using an ssh connection to my machine at home would have been *much* easier... ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: linux and windows
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008, Dave Dyer wrote: If your program has ANY gui at all though, you're pretty much screwed. Mac Windows and Linux GUIs are about as far apart as any three platforms can be. There are lots of compatibility solutions, including your choice of platform independent languages; but they all create essentially a fourth platform that you have to target, and once again, you're screwed unless you started that way. Not quite true anymore; Macs support X-windows, so you can use the same GUI for Mac+(L)inux. Christoph ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: tournaments
Don't forget that gaming PCs are some of the highest bang-for-the-buck computers that you can get. And games are already taking advantage of many cores (as many as they can get?) due to the highly competitive market. David Doshay wrote: On 17, Jul 2008, at 1:34 PM, terry mcintyre wrote: --- On Thu, 7/17/08, David Doshay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: David Doshay [EMAIL PROTECTED] My program runs on a cluster ... no way around that. David, you're just not taking full advantage of Virtualization ... simply emulate multiple VMs on a single computer; there may be a performance penalty. ;) It is actually one step easier than that. MPI lets one do it directly without all of the multiple VMs. And hey, just like your smiley indicates, if I emulate 64 machines I only have a factor of maybe 65 in speed hit!! Wow, my program could finish a one hour game in only 65 hours! I do appreciate having some head-to-head competitions using similar hardware, but I also want to see unlimited open class competition, where people are able to run multiprocessors, and learn to scale algorithms to big-n processors. We'll all have 1000 processors on our desktops in a few years anyhow, might as well iron out the problems now. getting further off-topic in a somewhat off-topic thread, I have my doubts about common desktops moving much past 8 or so cores. That is about the max number of things most users will try to run at one time. Cheers, David ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] How to change the influence function?
Hello, I am trying to implement a new influence function in GNU Go version 3.6. I have two questions about this issue. The first question is how to prove the new influence function is better the old one. I believe it can be said the new influence function is better if the new GNU Go wins more games, in average, than the old one. The rest of the parts will stay the same. In other words, this new influence function should be compared from self-play (old influence function vs. new influence fn). Does this sound reasonable? Any comment will be appreciated! The second question is more practical. Could anyone tell what part in the source codes should be modified? I have no experience of working with influence function, setting up a self-play, and counting the number of wins. ANY input will be helpful... After reading the GNU Go documentation 13. Influence function (http://www.gnu.org/software/gnugo/gnugo_13.html), I was trying to understand engine/influence.h and engine/influence.c. But it's all puzzling to me. Thank you in advance! T Kim !!! Friends are angels who lift us to our feet when our wing have trouble remembering how to fly. !!! Address: Missouri University of Science and Technologies Formerly, University of Missouri-Rolla Applied Computational Intelligence Laboratory G11 Emerson Electric Co. Hall 1870 Miner Circle Rolla, MO 65409-0040 ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
