- Original Message
From: David Doshay ddos...@mac.com
Programmers work on all kinds of hardware. Making them port their
code to some arbitrary standard platform is not a great idea. Just
as one voice, I will not bother to port my code to a different box. So,
if the competitions are
, instead of letting those with
superior quads take the crown.
Terry McIntyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com
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will be driven to
explore approaches which use the hardware more optimally.
Terry McIntyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com
-- Libertarians Do It With Consent!
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the
current working directory is located.
HTH
Terry McIntyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com
-- Libertarians Do It With Consent!
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From: dhillism...@netscape.net dhillism...@netscape.net
I have a similar rule in my program, but I search for neighbors in a square
region because I am interested in Knight's moves and Monkey Jumps.
Here's an interesting scenario: A row of stones high on
Well, Amen! As Don Dailey said, researchers probably would have concluded that
MC was not worth doing, if they had been using the computers of ten or fifteen
years back.
Looking forward, computer power equivalent to that rig lashed together with 8
PS3s or GPUs or FPGAs, or some combination
This could be the future of computer Go: fast, dense, nonvolatile RAM; fast and
dense FPGAs, and direct models of neurons as memristor devices.
- Forwarded Message
Most Read Content
Top 3 most read articles:
* How We Found the Missing Memristor
* Slideshow: Meet
From: Mark Boon tesujisoftw...@gmail.com
On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 12:37 PM, Don Dailey wrote:
So I think we have to embrace the fact that hardware is a part of these
kinds of advancements. In fact I have always believe this anyway, the
whole idea behind computing is to perform simple
From: Don Dailey drdai...@cox.net
On Mon, 2008-12-15 at 14:22 -0800, terry mcintyre wrote:
In my experience with IT systems administration, people do tend to let
the hardware do the heavy lifting when algorithmic improvements could
double and quadruple the performance. We don't know much
From: Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Wed, 2008-12-10 at 18:56 +, tony tang wrote:
Some of my programs do not place any stone on the edge, unless it
touches some other stone. I also count the diagonal, so if there is a
stone diagonally next to an edge point, I allow a move to that
From: tony tang [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Back to the original question - accounting for symmetry, there 55 distinct
opening moves on a 19x19 board.
Are there a noted collection of these opening moves? if so could you direct me
to the
material? cheers
Do you
From: Heikki Levanto [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 12:39:55PM -0800, terry mcintyre wrote:
I once heard a simple rule which seems to cover just about everything
interesting: consider only moves which are on the 3rd and 4th lines,
and/or within a manhattan distance of n
What's the status of the greatest-and-latest reference bots? Are the sources
available anywhere?
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- Libertarians Do It With Consent!
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][jl][ll][pl][rl][hm][km][lm][qm][rm][d
n][gn][in][qn][eo][fo][qo][ep][hp][lp][np][op][fq][gq][lq][mq][pq][qq][rq][fr][k
r][fs][js]
;C[move(rk,black):best ])
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- Libertarians Do It With Consent!
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computer-go
From: Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I've always had this idea that the best way to build an opening book is
the best way to build a general playing engine. You are trying to
solve the same exact problem - what is the best move in this position?
When building an opening book, you have the
- Original Message
From: Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MCTS really feels to me like a superb book building algorithm.
Computer Chess books (at least the automated part) are built essentially
by taking millions of games from master play and picking out the ones
that seem to work
From: David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Traffic to my site and igowin downloads jumped 20% yesterday, so the [Sarah
Conner] show did
generate some interest in go.
That's impressive, especially considering the fairly long search path between
Go and igowin.
The term web site had no meaning prior to 1991. If we are talking about
decades ago, it might have been an ftp or gopher site, or a BBS.
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- Libertarians Do It With Consent!
The download site was a web site. The original source of my program
for free I
From: Matthew Woodcraft [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Don Dailey wrote:
A few years later I was pointed to a site where I could download that
and just about any commercial chess program.We are talking several
decades ago, I didn't bookmark the site or use it myself and I have no
idea if it's
From: Michael Gherrity [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I have read that the amount of money that a winning computer go program would
make in a go tournament is insignificant compared to the amount of money that
such a program would earn selling to the general public.
That is obviously true. Prizes are
Americans have, generally speaking, more respect for the rights of others - and
guns play a part in that, since many of us choose to defend our rights
directly. As Heinlein wrote: An armed society is a polite society.
Google pink pistols and terry mcintyre if you wish.
I say in general
and pro 9 dan might be about 3 stones.
Go programs have progressed a lot in the last few years, but there's still room
for a lot of improvement.
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- Libertarians Do It With Consent!
- Original Message
From: Mark Boon [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: computer
From: Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tue, 2008-11-18 at 08:28 -0800, David Fotland wrote:
Many Faces gained 5 ranks when I added MCTS to it (with about 7 months
of full time work), so I have to agree that Monte Carlo changed our
world.
I remember that you were not a true believer
From: Oliver Lewis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On 11/18/08, Michael Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It doesn't make any sense to me from a theoretical perspective. Do you have
empirical evidence?
I agree that empirical evidence is required, but theoretically,
source for information regarding purchase of
Windows HPC.
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- Libertarians Do It With Consent!
From: Angel Java Lopez [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 5, 2008 2:49:01 AM
From: Zach Tellman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
There are few languages other than these that offer reasonable
performance, not worse than 2X slower than C, but they tend to be
memory hogs. Java is one of them. I cannot imagine ever seeing a top
chess program written in Java, or anything that is
There actually were at least three operating systems written in Haskell (
House, hOp, and Kinetic ), and the Lisp Machines came with absolutely
everything - operating system, user interface, editor, yadda yadda - crafted in
Lisp.
___
From: Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tue, 2008-11-04 at 10:13 -0800, terry mcintyre wrote:
Some language may make it easy to encapsulate information gleaned
during local searches into a kind of short term memory and exploit
that to speed up evaluation of many branches of the search tree
From: Richard Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The enemy's key point is my own is often invoked, for example, as a
reason to occupy the central point of a _nakade_ shape, or to play a
double sente point, or to make an extension that would also be an
extension for the opponent.
snippage
Not only
about it - and some form of feedback to encourage participation.
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- Libertarians Do It With Consent!
- Original Message
From: Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Jason House [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org
Sent: Tuesday
input different moves, the competitor loses the game immediately.
The time to input moves is also clocked.
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- Libertarians Do It With Consent!
- Original Message
From: Hideki Kato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org
Cc
- Original Message
From: Mark Boon [EMAIL PROTECTED]
snippage
Let me first describe what I did (ar attempted to do): all nodes are
stored in a hash-table using a checksum. Whenever I create a new node
in the tree I add it in the hash-table as well. If two nodes have the
same
From: Ian Osgood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Now that Leela and Many Faces v12 are available for any Windows user
to purchase
Thanks for the heads-up, I must have missed the announcement.
Do either of these worthy programs work with Wine on Linux?
I recently tried a development version of MGF12
Ross,
I'm not getting it; what problem are you trying to solve?
From: Ross Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hi all,
I'm looking for a very simple GUI GTP engine--not a controller. Programs
like Jago or GoGUI are great GTP controllers--they can connect to a GTP
engine like GnuGo and play
Darren Cook wrote:
What do your program's playouts think when presented with the board
position in the article? This is a terminal position, both players have
passed, a comfortable white win, yet pure random playouts think black
will win more often.
and their refutations? If a ladder is involved, this directed
expansion might add some interesting ladder breakers to the tree - even trying
them in advance of playing the joseki, in order to constrain the opponent's
plays to its advantage.
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
We must stop dressing up
From: Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I've always had this idea that the best way to build a book might also
be the best way to build a game playing program. For instance we have
done these big studies to determine based on games of Leela and others
what the best main line of play is.
From: Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sun, 2008-10-12 at 08:08 -0700, terry mcintyre wrote:
Yes, there are analogies. The databases of games in Chess include many
high-quality grandmaster-level games, do they not? I hope that Go databases
also
sample professional Dan-level games
From: Weston Markham [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In the context of Monte Carlo, a win or loss by a large margin is
quite likely (at least in any close game) to be due to large blunders.
(For example, allowing a large, safe group of stones to be captured.)
Given this, it does not make sense to weight
From: Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It's impressive, but I'm always interested in a general purpose
algorithm that is fast, can be used on any processor, any language
without pain and agony.
All good things to hope for, but languages vary enough that some things must be
expressed
From: Gunnar Farnebäck [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I suspect that quite a few of the odd scores are not due to the
presence of seki with an odd number of neutral points but are caused
by uncaptured dead stones.
Which program (or programs) is most reliable at determining life-and-death and
seki
, it gives 20-30% improvement.
( You may recall LLVM from the recent hype regarding Apple's next-gen Snow
Leopard )
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
We must stop dressing up the slaughter of foreigners as a great national cause.
-- Sheldon Richman
From: Dan Andersson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
There is however a new kid on the block that is pretty impressive and
manages to beat C/C++. ATS (Applied Type System) also emits C but due to
the structure and type system the code is pretty specialized and
optimized to beat any sane and optimized C
Ingo, thanks for the info.
Congrats to David Fotland, also to the Mogo and Leela teams!
What were the time controls on the 19x19 games?
- Original Message
From: Ingo Althöfer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Many Faces of Go has won also the 19x19 competition
in the 13th International Computer
, or whatever is determined to be an
optimal method for generating solid ratings.
To be fair, we'd have to discard results from computers which drop off the
network, and re-play that match.
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
We must stop dressing up the slaughter of foreigners as a great national cause
I'm curious -- was this an 8 x quad-core box? Should be able to fit all those
puppies into a single box nowadays.
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
We must stop dressing up the slaughter of foreigners as a great national cause.
-- Sheldon Richman
- Original Message
From: David
local optima, not the
globally best play.
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
We must stop dressing up the slaughter of foreigners as a great national cause.
-- Sheldon Richman
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Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
We must stop dressing up the slaughter of foreigners as a great national cause.
-- Sheldon Richman
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the
quality of the estimate. At this date, computer-vs-computer matches still tend
to have gross errors in the evaluation of seki, nakade, etc. Programs think
they are ahead when the real result is the opposite.
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Go is very hard. The more I learn about
not help the
fleeing stones; they still get corraled and captured.
These corner cases are tough, but many games hinge on correctly reading out the
exact consequences of life-and-death struggles.
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Go is very hard. The more I learn about it, the less I know. -Jie Li, 9
, robbing MFG of a
few points of territory, thereby defeating it.
This 9x9 game is attached. I'd be interested to see programs which correctly
handle such situations.
David, many thanks! I am looking forward to the new improved version of MFG,
and hope these games help.
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL
I was runing on an Athlon 64x2 laptop. Unfortunately, I could not get MFG to
work under Wine on my quad Intel; would love to see how well it does with
better hardware. Regrettably, I have no Windows installation media for the
quadcore.
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Go is very hard
related to nakade, seki, and ko
fights. A pro could certainly not give a two-stone handicap to a top program on
a 9x9 board, assuming that the program knows how to make use of those handicap
stones.
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Go is very hard. The more I learn about it, the less I know
Interesting analysis, Don.
Human players sometimes adhere to a simple policy: rich men don't pick fights.
When one is objectively far ahead, one picks up the easy profits, and otherwise
takes no risks. If moves A, B, and C are comparable risk-wise, one would prefer
the more profitable of the
://senseis.xmp.net/?CountingLibertiesAndWinningCapturingRaces
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Go is very hard. The more I learn about it, the less I know. -Jie Li, 9 dan
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From: Bob Hearn [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sep 5, 2008, at 10:34 AM, Robert Jasiek wrote:
terry mcintyre wrote:
Has anyone tried implementing the ideas in Richard Hunter's Counting
Liberties
...
So although Hunter's study is a good fundament from which to start
working
Congratulations!
I'm dying for details! What was the time limit? Did the game end on time or by
resignation at move 179?
The pro was Aoba Kaori, yes?
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Go is very hard. The more I learn about it, the less I know. -Jie Li, 9 dan
- Original Message
http://senseis.xmp.net/?KGSRatingMath -- this table does include handicap
stones in the calculations.
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Go is very hard. The more I learn about it, the less I know. -Jie Li, 9 dan
- Original Message
From: terry mcintyre [EMAIL PROTECTED
Regarding a rating system which provides more dimensions, may I suggest a test
suite of problems at different levels?
Convert life-and-death problems to solve this problem or lose the game
situations which can be properly appreciated by monte carlo programs, and make
a guesstimate of the elo
- Original Message
From: Rémi Coulom [EMAIL PROTECTED]
According to my experience with Go data, it is not possible to give the
value of one stone in terms of Elo ratings. For weak players, one stone
is a lot less than 100 Elo. For stronger players, it may be more.
Also, it is
Just a guess: an incarnation of Sluggo?
From: Rémi Coulom [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 6:13:37 AM
Subject: Re: [computer-go] rz-74 on CGOS ?
Magnus Persson wrote:
I looked at the last games played by rz-74, and it looks like a
Facilities
Foundation (NCF).
See also http://www.sara.nl/news/press/20080813/Go_computer_victory_eng.html
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
“Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state
education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit
obedience
From: Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 14:38 +0200, Magnus Persson wrote:
Here is my take on joseki and fuseki in computer programs.
My older program Viking, had a quite nice patternmatching feature
which matched the entire board or smaller parts of it towards a
From: Jason House [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If this is aimed at clearing up ambiguity, you should state which way the
handicap was given.
Oops! Now I need to clean off my keyboard! rotflmao!
Mmmm, we already have a hotly-contested estimate that computer programs will
play pros on an even basis in
Every now and then, I have been known to eke out a win by running my opponent
out of time. KGS thinks that such a win is as good as any other. I am unable to
convince myself; but whenever I have a territorial advantage, I never have
second thoughts.
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED
, search instability, and many others.
Therefore, most modern chess engines still implement Negascout, which is
considered by many chess programmers to be the best search algorithm in
practice.
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
“Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found
There are times when self-atari is the correct play. Seki and nakade are
probably going to require a global analysis to handle properly.
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
“Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state
education. It has been discovered
/~kishi/publication.html
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
“Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state
education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit
obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery.”
Benjamin Disraeli, Speech
From: steve uurtamo [EMAIL PROTECTED]
what happens when the opponent deviates from joseki?
knowing how to punish joseki mistakes can be very, very tricky.
From my observations at the mogo-vs-pro game, given lots of time and CPU
cores, Mogo is able to discover how to punish such deviations. In
From: Bob Hearn [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Now, my question. Sorry if this has already been beaten to death here. After
the match, one of the MoGo programmers mentioned that doubling the computation
led to a 63% win rate against the baseline version, and that so far this
scaling seemed to continue as
On 10-aug-08, at 17:24, Don Dailey wrote:
Of course there is also the possibility of some exciting new hardware
breakthrough around the corner that doesn't just extend Moore's law, but
blows it out of the water. From: Mark Boon [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Of course there's that possibility. But I'm
. :)
If my program won on time in an obviously lost position, I'd be turning every
rock to find a way to improve the actual play; that matters much more to me
than the win-loss record.
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
“Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state
- Original Message
From: Christoph Birk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008, Don Dailey wrote:
It was obviously unclear enough to some of us that it required some
analysis. Even the strong Leela did not see this as merely filling in
the empty points.
That's because it
humans have studied for thousands of
years; it is not surprising that they should be optimal or near-optimal.
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
“Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state
education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit
From: David Doshay [EMAIL PROTECTED]
One point not discussed much in this thread is the consistency issue.
I think that if Kim were able to play a dozen games against mogo with
this same handicap he would win the last 6 ... people manage to adapt
and the computers do not.
But that much
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
“Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state
education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit
obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery.”
Benjamin Disraeli, Speech in the House of Commons [June 15
- Original Message
I still have this theory that when the level of the program is in the
high-dan reaches, it can take proper advantage of an opening book. Alas, it
may be a few years before enough processoring power is routinely available to
test this hypothesis. I know that we
- Original Message
From: Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I don't care what people say about handicap systems, if you are the
stronger player you must start from a dead lost position. Even though
I'm not a strong GO player, common sense tells me that you will have to
play unsound moves on
against a pro. Human blunders in
blitz games tend to be during more complex middle-game situations, where they
have to calculate de novo the best play.
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Peter, many thanks to you and all the other participants in the Computer Go
Tournament! It was fun watching and participating! Here's hoping we have a nice
strong cluster or two mowing down the opposition next year!
- Original Message
From: Peter Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Computer
that Doshay's Sluggo will compete - provided he can work out the issues with
his new portable cluster.
David has said he'd love to see other computer competitors. This is contingent
on the Cotsen tournament rules -- I'll get that information.
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original
anything remotely in the same ballpark as that. The fault was not
his, in any way, shape or form.
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
“Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state
education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit
obedience
the game, Doshay wondered “How much time do
we have left? We’ve improved nine stones in just a year and I suspect
the next nine will fall quickly now.”
- reported by Chris Garlock, photo by Brian Allen
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
“Wherever is found what is called a paternal government
playouts which would better
utilize information about the board, and presumably gather higher quality
information with less effort.
All the best to you wonderful people for making this program possible!
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED
that Mogo has such
impressive power - but unfortunately, the supercomputer was only lent for this
one match. They can't easily test the hypothesis that a strong program on a
massive cluster could make effective use of a good opening book. Mogo no longer
uses UCT.
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED
To answer one other question: we were told that Mogo scales linearly. The
supercomputer has a very high-bandwidth interconnect. The Mogo team was unable
to release more architectural details at this time.
To reiterate on another question, from what the team said, no book, no joseki,
just raw
- Original Message
From: Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I misunderstood Jason's email. He is trying to compile his program to
run on windows and it's written in D. You cannot log into a windows
computer remotely either without special software.
Rdesktop is is widely available for
From: Peter Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It seems too expensive to search every point on the board for ladders. What
to do?
Perhaps it would be worthwhile to preserve state from board to board - there
are unlikely to be more than 2 or 3 ladders on any given board. When a stone is
played,
From: Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
One time long ago I considered making a server where there were no time
controls. You just played at whatever pace you choose. The server
would try to keep your bot busy playing many different games
simultaneously. Whenever your move is complete, the
From: Peter Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Our approach was to read out ladders involving the last stone played.
In the playout (beyond the tree), if the attacker can capture by
continuing a ladder, the attacker plays that move. If the defender can
escape by running, the defender plays that move.
--- On Thu, 7/17/08, David Doshay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: David Doshay [EMAIL PROTECTED]
My program runs on a cluster ... no way around that.
David, you're just not taking full advantage of Virtualization ... simply
emulate multiple VMs on a single computer; there may be a performance
The apps will arrive. Toshiba plans to sell a laptop with a modified form of
the Cell processor; it has 4 SPEs which do quite a job of handling blu-ray DVDs
and also use the laptop's webcam to allow user movement and facial expressions
to control the computer.
( I can just see it - user
://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
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Terry McIntyre lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt;
Wherever is found what is called
would be as random as
all that, when called frequently in
quasi-deterministic code which takes a predictable
number of cycles between invocations.
Terry McIntyre lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt;
Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state
education. It has been
version. The Japanese version describes a
special meeting June 21,22. This meeting announcement
does not appear on the English version.
Terry McIntyre lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt;
Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state
education. It has been discovered that the best
challenge, the
game of Go?
Terry McIntyre lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt;
Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state
education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit
obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery.
Benjamin Disraeli, Speech
If we start up another scalability test, I'd be
delighted to offer up a few computer cores.
It would be real nice to not only have the
light-playout variant of leela, but perhaps the
nakade-patch version of mogo and maybe even some third
program. ( if wishes were horses ... )
Terry McIntyre lt
it is worse :-)
Good to find out, no?
Terry McIntyre lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt;
Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state
education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit
obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery.
Benjamin Disraeli
/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Terry McIntyre lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt;
Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state
education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit
obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery.
Benjamin Disraeli, Speech
that becomes available. Having a free as in
speech OS does not preclude supporting the efforts of
commercial developers.
I see Linux market share increasing. Microsoft
recently announced that Windows XP will be supported
for two more years - presumably due to widespread
discontent with Vista.
Terry
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