Maybe another way to put it:
In Fischer time, the time allowed to play the game is simply a
function of the number of moves in the game. If white moves last,
this time is same for both players, otherwise black gets slightly
more. At the beginning of the game, the time on the clock is the
amount
On Sat, 2007-06-23 at 08:51 +0900, igo wrote:
> I can understand what you are saying,
> but still Fischer timing is not natural(simple) to my feeling.
> Maybe because I am a fool. :-)
>
> There are many other time-limit competition's time system,
> (football,boxing...)
> I think they all have th
I can understand what you are saying,
but still Fischer timing is not natural(simple) to my feeling.
Maybe because I am a fool. :-)
There are many other time-limit competition's time system, (football,boxing...)
I think they all have the same point: time goes steadily. (decreasing)
not like Fisc
I can understand what you are saying,
but still Fischer timing is not natural(simple) to my feeling.
Maybe because I am a fool. :-)
There are many other time-limit competition's time system, (football,boxing...)
I think they all have the same point: time goes steadily. (decreasing)
not like Fisc
On Thu, 2007-06-21 at 14:15 +0100, Nick Wedd wrote:
> The snag with Fischer timing is that you need a special
> clock to do it - but if you're using a computer anyway, this
> shouldn't
> be a problem.
Yes, this is true.
But I think these are commonly available. I had one years ago even
tho
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, igo
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
Not sure this was mentioned before, but there's an interesting study
work presented at
http://senseis.xmp.net/?TimingSystemsRedux
Thank you very much.
I think the writer was discussing from the "player's point of view",
but not fr
On Thu, 2007-06-21 at 19:38 +0900, igo wrote:
> Thank you very much.
>
> I think the writer was discussing from the "player's point of view",
> but not from GO's view.
> For the game of GO, if the time-system is fair and
> can avoid Sudden-Death naturally, that's enough.
>
> The writer's concl
On 6/21/07, igo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[...]
The writer's conclusion is "Keep it Simple!",
but the Fischer timing's action is not simple to understand.
Can someone explain me why a player receives times after played a move
even when he doesn't lack of time ?
It really is simple. You start w
> Not sure this was mentioned before, but there's an interesting study work
> presented at
> http://senseis.xmp.net/?TimingSystemsRedux
Thank you very much.
I think the writer was discussing from the "player's point of view",
but not from GO's view.
For the game of GO, if the time-system is fa
On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 08:52 -0700, steve uurtamo wrote:
> > The right parameters for Fischer time is whatever allows the highest
> > quality of games in the shortest actual game time and of course these
> > values can only be estimated or guessed at.I have estimated (perhaps
> > incorrectly but
> The right parameters for Fischer time is whatever allows the highest
> quality of games in the shortest actual game time and of course these
> values can only be estimated or guessed at.I have estimated (perhaps
> incorrectly but based on many comments from the group and for other
> reasons t
On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 11:12 -0400, Don Dailey wrote:
> All of these considerations together would seem to indicate that it is
> best to let the human have as much control as possible by allocating a
> large pool of initial time and keeping the increment pretty small
> (just
> what is needed to comf
On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 06:44 -0700, terry mcintyre wrote:
> 3-5 or 5-10 seconds is not a "relaxed" or "comfortable" pace for most
> human players. Byo yomi
> is usually set at 30 seconds per move. Canadian time controls might be
> "20 moves in five minutes", .
Who said the pace is 5-10 second
y mean to govern. They promise to be kind
masters; but they mean to be masters. -- Daniel Webster
- Original Message
From: Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: computer-go
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 5:16:23 AM
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to GNU and to MoGoBot19!
On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 07:56 +0200, nando wrote:
> Not sure this was mentioned before, but there's an interesting study
> work presented at
> http://senseis.xmp.net/?TimingSystemsRedux
I just looked, after a quick scan it looks pretty good. It seems
logical and there is no undo deference to trad
On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 18:16 -0700, steve uurtamo wrote:
> sorry, i should have said that i think that it's least complicated
> with sudden death. unless you mean to treat it internally as
> if it's sudden death, but to use fisher time to make up for lag/delay.
I'm talking about from the humans po
On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 17:54 -0700, steve uurtamo wrote:
> actually, it's least complicated with sudden death.
I don't agree. We are talking about time management from the humans
point of view and the human player doesn't need to think as hard about
playing quickly in order to save time for later.
On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 11:55:47AM +0100, Jacques Basaldúa wrote:
> Computers feel comfortable with any time settings, and no matter how
> naif the scheduling algorithm is, it will always be far better than
> human scheduling. Computers can safely approach using 99.999% of their
> time (asymptotica
On Tue, Jun 19, 2007 at 04:18:20PM -0700, steve uurtamo wrote:
> true, and a good point. time management other than attempting
> to equally divide remaining time among the expected number of
> remaining moves (which itself isn't so easy to estimate) is
> complicated.
Even that has the complicatio
steve uurtamo wrote:
> true, and a good point. time management other than attempting
> to equally divide remaining time among the expected number of
> remaining moves (which itself isn't so easy to estimate) is
> complicated.
But that is so much better than human time management!
If the expect
Hi,
On 6/20/07, Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
But it's least complicated with Fischer clock because everything is
steady state, no mode shifts where suddenly things are reckoned
differently. A simple glance at the clock is all you need to know
the situation.
I'm not sure I understa
Not sure this was mentioned before, but there's an interesting study
work presented at
http://senseis.xmp.net/?TimingSystemsRedux
-- nando
On 6/20/07, igo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[Fischer clock] -- play a move to get times.
[Byo-yomi] -- use times to play a move.
For human's feeling, time i
[Fischer clock] -- play a move to get times.
[Byo-yomi] -- use times to play a move.
For human's feeling, time is passing, but not increasing.
So byo-yomi is popular now and in the future.
igo
-
Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
omputer-go
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 8:41:03 PM
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to GNU and to MoGoBot19!
On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 16:18 -0700, steve uurtamo wrote:
> > Managing your own time whether in chunks or as a whole _is_ a
> > sub-game/task either way.
>
> true,
actually, it's least complicated with sudden death.
s.
- Original Message
From: Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: computer-go
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 8:41:03 PM
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to GNU and to MoGoBot19!
On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 16:18 -0700, st
On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 16:18 -0700, steve uurtamo wrote:
> > Managing your own time whether in chunks or as a whole _is_ a
> > sub-game/task either way.
>
> true, and a good point. time management other than attempting
> to equally divide remaining time among the expected number of
> remaining mo
> Managing your own time whether in chunks or as a whole _is_ a
> sub-game/task either way.
true, and a good point. time management other than attempting
to equally divide remaining time among the expected number of
remaining moves (which itself isn't so easy to estimate) is
complicated.
s.
steve uurtamo wrote:
i think that maybe you misunderstand how byo yomi is used in
practice.
you have a giant pile of time that should be enough to account for
basically all of the hardest parts of the game.
then you have several (more than 1 !) byo-yomi periods, which are
like grace periods on
i think that maybe you misunderstand how byo yomi is used in practice.
you have a giant pile of time that should be enough to account for basically
all of the hardest parts of the game.
then you have several (more than 1 !) byo-yomi periods, which are like
grace periods on top of what would other
On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 22:11 +0200, Antonin Lucas wrote:
>
>
>
> My formula is that the increment for Fischer should be pretty
> small for
> GO, longer for Chess where you will encounter difficulties at
> every
> stage of the game until 1 p
My formula is that the increment for Fischer should be pretty small for
GO, longer for Chess where you will encounter difficulties at every
stage of the game until 1 player resigns. This would solve the
problems you mention.
- Don
The final problem with go is that the endgame is sometimes
On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 21:32 +0200, Antonin Lucas wrote:
> The thing with Go is that typically moves that require long thinking
> times are among the first hundred, i.e. fuseki and chuban. The last
> 150 moves of a typical go games, the yose, require much less thinking
> time for a human (but can't
On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 12:15 -0700, steve uurtamo wrote:
> > That still has the undesirable characteristic that you can use much less
> > time than your opponent but still lose on time.
>
> not to be too obtuse, but why is this an undesirable characteristic?
No, I understand your question.
It is
on time systems -
as a human player, if my objective is to win by playing better moves, my
order of preference is: Canadian overtime, Byo yomi, Sudden death. And
if my objective is to win by any legal method, it is: Sudden death,
Canadian overtime, Byo yomi.
However, we all have our own p
I don't think so - with a basic time x and a per-more time y you can
freely adjust the fischer time setting to both short games and games
where there's more time in the beginning.
Regards,
Benjamin
Antonin Lucas schrieb:
(I agree that Fischer time is superior for go, but it may take a
Sorry, but I disagree with almost anything you say in this post:
On Tue, Jun 19, 2007 at 09:32:27PM +0200, Antonin Lucas wrote:
>
> (I agree that Fischer time is superior for go, but it may take a
> long
> while until it gains acceptance.)
>The thing with Go is that typically
(I agree that Fischer time is superior for go, but it may take a long
while until it gains acceptance.)
Arend
The thing with Go is that typically moves that require long thinking times
are among the first hundred, i.e. fuseki and chuban. The last 150 moves of a
typical go games, the yose, re
On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 12:49 -0500, Arend Bayer wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 19, 2007 at 02:45:28PM -0400, Don Dailey wrote:
> > I also don't like having to account for move numbers. It's ok if the
> > computer is tracking this such as online sites, but it's a pain
> > remembering and keeping up with move
> That still has the undesirable characteristic that you can use much less
> time than your opponent but still lose on time.
not to be too obtuse, but why is this an undesirable characteristic?
s.
Go
From: Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 11:27 -0700, steve uurtamo wrote:
>I also don't like having to account for move numbers. It's ok if the
>computer is tracking this such as online sites, but it's a pain
>remembering and keeping up with move numbers in games played on phys
On Tue, Jun 19, 2007 at 02:45:28PM -0400, Don Dailey wrote:
> I also don't like having to account for move numbers. It's ok if the
> computer is tracking this such as online sites, but it's a pain
> remembering and keeping up with move numbers in games played on physical
> equipment.
Have you e
On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 11:27 -0700, steve uurtamo wrote:
> how about canadian time?
>
> X moves in Y minutes, where X and Y reset every time
> you play X moves. you can choose where to spend your
> time, and if things get tight, you only have to survive and
> not do anything stupid for X-(current
how about canadian time?
X moves in Y minutes, where X and Y reset every time
you play X moves. you can choose where to spend your
time, and if things get tight, you only have to survive and
not do anything stupid for X-(current # of moves) and then
you get all of your time back. you can use up
2007/6/20, Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
3. Fischer - Best. If you are really short on time, you can gain
time on your clock by playing easy moves more quickly.
I also note that this would allow trading ko threats with time. In
typical Go positions there are many forcing moves available.
-
MAIL PROTECTED]>
To: computer-go
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 8:11:15 AM
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to GNU and to MoGoBot19!
On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 07:14 -0700, steve uurtamo wrote:
> Don, I like you very much, but when you say that byo-yomi
> is unfriendly to humans, I have to
On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 07:14 -0700, steve uurtamo wrote:
> Don, I like you very much, but when you say that byo-yomi
> is unfriendly to humans, I have to say that you clearly haven't
> played enough go. Byo-yomi is incredibly friendly to humans.
You are not thinking clearly here because I am compa
I don't agree with you. In Go, before starting a sequence on the board
you have to think a lot about the different possible sequences and the
outcomes. You need to think about what you get finally and is there
anything better.
But when the sequence is started, you have the different variations in
m
2007/6/19, steve uurtamo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
Don, I like you very much, but when you say that byo-yomi
is unfriendly to humans, I have to say that you clearly haven't
played enough go. Byo-yomi is incredibly friendly to humans.
If you don't like it, try canadian timing, which is also very
frie
Don, I like you very much, but when you say that byo-yomi
is unfriendly to humans, I have to say that you clearly haven't
played enough go. Byo-yomi is incredibly friendly to humans.
If you don't like it, try canadian timing, which is also very
friendly to humans.
Please, for the love of god, do
By the way, byo-yomi is not a very logical system. It has the
characteristic that you are penalized for playing quickly. If you play
quickly the time should be credited to you.But byo-yomi seems more
interested in forcing a player to play at a steady pace and doesn't
allow much control over
On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 11:59 +0900, Darren Cook wrote:
> > I think Remi was making the point that the CrazyStone games were played
> > at a time control not usually played in serious games. Therefore he
> > concludes the rating was inflated. ... If you spend too much time
> > building up a won po
>> I thought the point being made was that the games were played without
>> byo-yomi.
>
> Isn't that a time control not usually played in serious games?
No, the other way round: all serious ama or pro games (at least, that I
know of) are played with byo-yomi. In the two-day tournaments the
byo-y
On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 11:59 +0900, Darren Cook wrote:
> > I think Remi was making the point that the CrazyStone games were played
> > at a time control not usually played in serious games. Therefore he
> > concludes the rating was inflated. ... If you spend too much time
> > building up a won po
> I think Remi was making the point that the CrazyStone games were played
> at a time control not usually played in serious games. Therefore he
> concludes the rating was inflated. ... If you spend too much time
> building up a won position, how can you claim a "moral victory" if you
> lose on t
To: computer-go
> Sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 9:19 pm
> Subject: Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to GNU and to MoGoBot19!
>
> On Sun, 2007-06-10 at 21:40 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Just one comment. The statement that 'it (CrazySton) has a 2k rating
> > on KGS...&#x
ailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: computer-go
Sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 9:19 pm
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to GNU and to MoGoBot19!
On Sun, 2007-06-10 at 21:40 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Just one comment. The statement that 'it (CrazySton) has a 2k rating
on KGS...'
Could a reasonably skilled human play a 19x19 games with 1 second per
move? Let's say he starts with 5 seconds and 1 second is added to his
clock after each move. I'm not asking for a high quality game, but
could he manage a non-silly plausible game using cgoban on KGS?
It seems like the stra
byo-yomi is important for go, or at the very least,
canadian time standards.
s.
- Original Message
From: Jeff Nowakowski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; computer-go
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 10:42:50 PM
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to GNU and to MoG
On Sun, 2007-06-10 at 22:42 -0400, Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
> On Sun, 2007-06-10 at 22:19 -0400, Don Dailey wrote:
> > Did something happen that unfairly caused the player to lose on time?
>
> No, but the games were absolute time games where CrazyStone was often in
> a losing position but ended up w
On Sun, 2007-06-10 at 22:19 -0400, Don Dailey wrote:
> Did something happen that unfairly caused the player to lose on time?
No, but the games were absolute time games where CrazyStone was often in
a losing position but ended up winning on time. The endgame in Go takes
a long time but is mostly j
On Sun, 2007-06-10 at 21:40 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Just one comment. The statement that 'it (CrazySton) has a 2k rating
> on KGS...' could be misleading. Crazystone never achived 2k rating
> against human player in real gemes. It achieved the ranking by
> basically winning on time.
I'm
On Sun, 2007-06-10 at 21:40 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Just one comment. The statement that 'it (CrazySton) has a 2k rating
> on KGS...' could be misleading. Crazystone never achived 2k rating
> against human player in real gemes. It achieved the ranking by
> basically winning on time.
>
>
dd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: computer-go
Sent: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 5:46 am
Subject: [computer-go] Congratulations to GNU and to MoGoBot19!
- the winners of last Sundays tournament on KGS. My report is at
http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/27/index.html. I expect people will soon
report the many mis
Nick Wedd wrote:
- the winners of last Sundays tournament on KGS. My report is at
http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/27/index.html. I expect people will
soon report the many misprints in it, as usual :)
Nick
Hi,
Thanks Nick for your report.
Here is what I found after analyzing the blund
- the winners of last Sundays tournament on KGS. My report is at
http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/27/index.html. I expect people will
soon report the many misprints in it, as usual :)
Nick
--
Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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