That is not logical. The ad says if you are on a budget. So if I am not
on a budget, it says nothing to me. This is not mathematical logical;
it is human nature. Advertising pays attention to human nature.
Thank you,
Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
Yes, that is true. What I am seeing,
That is not logical. The ad says if you are on a budget.
So if I am not on a budget, it says nothing to me. This
is not mathematical logical; it is human nature.
Advertising pays attention to human nature.
Why are you insisting that a single ad has to cover all possible reasons to
do
What other ads does MS have out touting their OS? Do they tout anything
else? Advertisements build brand; MS seems to be going for the Wal-Mart
image in this one.
Thank you,
Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
Why are you insisting that a single ad has to cover all possible reasons
to do
What other ads does MS have out touting their OS? Do
they tout anything else?
I already answered this. They currently have several ads with little kids
showing how easy and quick it is to do stuff like making panoramas and
enhancing/mailing pictures. They just finished the I'm a PC series.
It certainly fortifies and rallies the WfBs to spout nonsense!
Thank you,
Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
Do you hear that sound? It's the sound of a million rending souls in
the snobosphere.
Please, Microsoft, make many, many more of these commercials. It's like
a dog whistle for
You got it. The ad says, if you are on a budget. You are correct that it
says nothing about if you are not on a budget, therefore nothing about
the converse. Your placement of the ONLY at the start of the sentence
claims the converse. That is why I am correcting your statement.
It does not
That is fine, but when did advertising start using linear logical
proofs?
I was referring to human nature, so when an ad caters to women, I stop
paying attention because I'm not female. Doesn't apply to me; only
women.
Thank you,
Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
You got it. The ad says,
That is fine, but when did advertising start using linear logical
proofs?
This has dragged on way too long, but the answer is, When you claim that MS
is telling us the only reason to buy PCs is that they're cheap.
*
**
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Steve at Verizon stevet...@verizon.net wrote:
Actually, MS is in no way touting their operating system in this commercial,
which is aimed at an audience which is indifferent to operating systems
(hard to believe for this newsgroup there are so many of them out
That is called branding.
When was the last time you watched a Movie? I mean really closely.
Notice how many different brands are noticeable either with the
characters using them or the Logo being front and center. (Bond
Movies are notorious for this.)
Companies pay big monies to have
Again, I agree with you.
If you quickly recognized that the ad was for those who wanted a laptop
and were on a budget, and you weren't, then you rightly should have
tuned it out.
Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS) wrote:
That is fine, but when did advertising start using linear logical
proofs?
I was
You're surprised that the sponsor of an ad would tell you who he is and
what his product is? I interpret the meaning of touting as telling you
what is so great about it, not just flashing a product name.
I repeat, for the nth time, MS is not directly selling Windows here.
They are indirectly,
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Rev. Stewart Marshall
popoz...@earthlink.net wrote:
That is called branding.
When was the last time you watched a Movie? I mean really closely.
Notice how many different brands are noticeable either with the characters
using them or the Logo being front and
Next thing you will tell me is that Realty TV is real! :-)
Stewart
At 11:49 AM 4/1/2009, you wrote:
Apple computers are all over the place in TV police/crime dramas.
Product placement. Federal officials are constantly shown staring at
Macintosh computer screens. Their presence in these
Apple computers are all over the place in TV police/crime dramas.
Product placement. Federal officials are constantly shown staring at
Macintosh computer screens. Their presence in these shows always
amuses me because if there is one brand of computer that is, in
reality, virtually
Next thing you will tell me is that Realty TV is real! :-)
Realty TV is real, but reality TV isn't. :)
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I may have misspelled, but Realty TV is not very real either!! :-)
Stewart
At 01:10 PM 4/1/2009, you wrote:
Next thing you will tell me is that Realty TV is real! :-)
Realty TV is real, but reality TV isn't. :)
*
Not sure how this got to be anything not a Mac is scum. I was
responding to criticism that MS does not sell hardware, but MS was
showing old hardware with their OS as cheaper than Apple's. Their
cheaper ad requires comparing bottom of the barrel hardware to Apple's.
Thank you,
Mark Snyder
MS was showing old hardware with their OS as cheaper
than Apple's.
Still clinging to this myth? I guess it's as comforting to McFans as a pair
of fuzzy slippers, but, as was shown here long ago, the HP in question is
not even two months old.
Their cheaper ad requires comparing bottom of
My company laptop is an HP model, maybe six months old now, so I do know
a bit about their cheaper models. It has a zippy 5400 RPM 80 GB hard
drive. The laptop is heavy, although lighter than its IBM predecessor,
so I only schlep it around if I must take it home.
One thing I have found to be
I don't care what the budget buyer's want; I want a good laptop
computer, and Apple has models that appeal to that.
Well, there ya go. The fact that budget buyers exist and are not served by
Apple is sorta the whole point, isn't it? Whether you care about them or
not?
FYI, the budget buyers
I don't care what the budget buyer's want; I want a good laptop
computer, and Apple has models that appeal to that. I am over 50, so I
don't care about looking cool. But I can appreciate cool hardware and
software, and Apple can provide that. Nor do I think people with
windows laptops are
So, assuming this ad is successful, the only reason to buy a Windows
computer is because you're on budget. Wow, how far does MS expect to
get with that as their brand?
Thank you,
Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
I don't care what the budget buyer's want; I want a good laptop
computer,
In this day and economic climate pretty far.
Have you noticed the shift in tone and focus of commercials in the
past 6 months?
Green, Saves Money, Makes good Economic sense, etc. etc.
That is what advertising is all about, appeal to the current consumer
orientation.
If they really wanted
Different definition of budget.
When you as an adult buy a pair of shoes, do you buy the cheap ones
that will wear out in a year or two, or good quality ones that with
care will last a decade or more?
When you buy a power tool that you plan to use a lot do you buy a
Walmart special that
You are defining your own criteria.
I do have a budget on shoes. I will not pay more than $70.00 for a
pair of shoes.
I need a pair of shoes that are comfortable, look nice, will wear
well, and DO NOT HURT MY FEET!
I will look and look and look until I find that pair of shoes that
meats
Faulty logic.
The statement:
If you are on a budget, you buy a PC laptop
is not equivalent to the statement
Only if you are on a budget, you buy a PC laptop
Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS) wrote:
So, assuming this ad is successful, the only reason to buy a Windows
computer is because you're on
Jeff, I do use _both_ W XP and OS X daily. I never called windows users
riff-raff. You seem to want to drag that in. I am not whining about MS
commercial, just criticizing it.
Don't buy a Mac, but at least try one before you whimper about Mac fans
or get out-raged at criticism of MS. Might
Apple does not choose to build laptops good for only a year or two.
My wife's ibook circa 2004 is still going strong as is my 2006 Macbook
Pro. At work they have to cycle out their Dell laptops every two
years - cheaper than keeping them in repair.
Anecdotal evidence. I've got my own. I have
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 10:06 AM, Matthew Taylor
taylorsmatt...@gmail.com wrote:
You can pay a little more up front to save big in the long run, or you can
pay less up front at a long term cost.
It is likely that for the most part Macintosh machines are of higher
quality in terms of
Apple does not choose to build laptops good for only a year or two. My
wife's ibook circa 2004 is still going strong as is my 2006 Macbook Pro. At
work they have to cycle out their Dell laptops every two years - cheaper
than keeping them in repair.
Are they used in the same manner in the
Check your outgoing about 21 hours ago where you said and I quote:
*No. So they show adds of people buying _laptops_ and showing how much
cheaper they are (with scum-sucking bottom feeder hardware).*
The implication being running any hardware with windows is scum sucking
bottom feeder
Jeff, I do use _both_ W XP and OS X daily. I never called windows users
riff-raff. You seem to want to drag that in. I am not whining about MS
commercial, just criticizing it.
Then you aren't paying attention to what you are writing.
Don't buy a Mac, but at least try one before you
And that is my Point! MS is only advertizing themselves as the
alternative for people on a tight budget. Let's crow to the heavens and
rejoice! Thou tomb stone shall read: None were cheaper than him!
Not sure why everybody keeps bringing up irrelevant examples about cars
when the talk about
It is likely that for the most part Macintosh machines are of higher
quality in terms of component parts than are far less expensive
similarly sized and outfitted machines designed and marketed for the
Windows OS. It is very difficult for me to believe that a $700
computer will be of
Nope, they picked cheap. There are fine windows configurations
available, but MS picked a bottom-feeder to bolster their ad: If you
must buy cheap, you must buy our OS on it. Strange message for a
software maker, no?
For the record, the hardware was the scum-sucker, not MS. I just think
it
I don't see any other message in their ad. Just MS is cheaper, so buy a
laptop with Windows if you can't afford more.
Do they make another point that I missed?
Thank you,
Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
Faulty logic.
The statement:
If you are on a budget, you buy a PC laptop
is not
And that is my Point! MS is only advertizing themselves as the
alternative for people on a tight budget. Let's crow to the heavens
and
rejoice! Thou tomb stone shall read: None were cheaper than him!
Not sure why everybody keeps bringing up irrelevant examples about cars
when the talk
I would be hard pressed to find a laptop that competes with Apple on the
looks of the machine. The new laptops are exceptional looking. But they
aren't 1000 dollars more exceptional looking then competing specs for me.
MS is fighting apple in the area it can...cost of hardware, Apple margins
are
Not true. Your problem is with the placement of the word only.
It is true that MS is advertising themselves as the _only_ alternative
for people on a tight budget.
Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS) wrote:
And that is my Point! MS is _only_ advertizing themselves as the
alternative for people on a
Since MS does not make hardware, why did they bring hardware into it?
Apple sells OS X separately; does MS sell windows for less? What about
the applications? Anything they can advertize other than low-price when
they compare themselves to apple?
Thank you,
Mark Snyder
-Original
I don't see any other message in their ad. Just MS is cheaper, so
buy a laptop with Windows if you can't afford more.
Do they make another point that I missed?
There's no validity to your assumption that one ad is supposed to show all
possible reasons for doing something. Here's an old
Sometimes It's like some mac users look in the mirror and reflect back at
non mac users their own feelings. There are no WFB..they don't exist in the
same way MFB exist. The mac community was on the fighting end for so long
they are just never not fighting. It's like so many of them have little
Few ads from MS come to my attention. So, okay Chris, does MS have
other ads out?
The last long campaign I remember was the one about all the
innovation. Before the law-suits.
Using your logic, apple's ads would be doing the same as MS, but they
seem to strike varying topics to tout their
Fine. Well built and reliable. Better built and more reliable than
a similarly outfitted Macintosh? Far less worrisome in operation?
Much less need for Geeks On Call?
Just as reliable and well-built, if not more so. I don't know about
the Geeks. I've never needed nor used them.
How
The fact that budget buyers exist and are not served by
Apple is sorta the whole point, isn't it?
Except that it is not true. Other than that you are just fine.
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** List info, subscription management, list rules,
By that logic, MS would have been satisfied with their monopoly and just
relaxed at least ten years ago.
I can't think of any publicly-owned company that can afford to just sit
back and be satisfied. Can you?
Thank you,
Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
Sometimes It's like some mac users
Actually they really don't touch on macs at all. They talk about ilife
sometimes...but mostly it's windows bad/mac good type adverts. Although
done a lot better then MS has ever done.
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 9:58 AM, Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS)
mark.sny...@ngc.com wrote:
Few ads from MS come to
I'm not talking company, I'm talking user base.
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS)
mark.sny...@ngc.com wrote:
By that logic, MS would have been satisfied with their monopoly and just
relaxed at least ten years ago.
I can't think of any publicly-owned company that can
What do they do better than Apple - both make software, but MS does not make
hardware. So why the hell would I want MS software over Apple's? They
can't seem to explain that in their marketing.
Actually MS does make some hardware and they publish detailed hardware
specifications for PCs that
I need a pair of shoes that are comfortable, look nice, will wear
well, and DO NOT HURT MY FEET!
Looks to me that you would not be buying a big, bulky, heavy laptop with
a crappy screen either. That would hurt your back and your eyes.
Few ads from MS come to my attention. So, okay Chris, does MS have
other ads out?
Uh, yes? The 4-1/2 year-old girl capturing, enhancing, and emailing pictures
to granny with a few clicks? Other little girls making panoramas and such?
I was never talking about the users. That sounds too much like envy /
inferiority. Blech. Don't want to go there.
Thank you,
Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
I'm not talking company, I'm talking user base.
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS)
mark.sny...@ngc.com
To say that Apple is incapable of building a less expensive machine that
won't last more than a year or two is a sad commentary on its engineering
skills. But I don't believe this for an instant. They are perfectly capable
of doing this; they choose not to. Why that is, I couldn't tell you.
Yes
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Jeff Wright jswri...@gmail.com wrote:
Of course, they have ~90x more users. When I go into an Apple store
[shudder], the *cough* Geniuses all seem to be very busy with Apple
owners having problems.
You are right, and most of those troubles are with iPods
Yes, that is true. What I am seeing, that is not in the ad, is the
statement
_Only_ if you are on a tight budget would you want to buy hardware
with an MS operating system.
What I do see is _If_ you are on a tight budget, etc
Didn't you take logic in some math course where you learned the
Sometimes It's like some mac users look in the mirror and reflect back at
non mac users their own feelings. There are no WFB..they don't exist in the
same way MFB exist.
You obviously have not been reading this thread. The WFBs have made some
mighty wild claims in defense of their dearly loved.
MS is fighting apple in the area it can...cost of hardware, Apple margins
are gigantic, other hardware manufacturers, not so much.
Same reason you should go out and buy a car from a bankrupt car maker.
You would not want to buy something from a healthy company that was
making money and was sure
And you've been discussing the matter with yourself for seven emails...the
mirror analogy suddenly seems even more apropos.
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 11:02 AM, Tom Piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote:
Sometimes It's like some mac users look in the mirror and reflect back at
non mac users their own
On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 11:20 PM, Chris Dunford ch...@covesoftware.com wrote:
What you can't dance around, and what not a single one of you have been able
to admit, is that if you want a 17 notebook and all you have is a thousand
bucks, you can choose between dozens of Windows laptops or
Macintosh machines do cost more than Windows machines of
the same basic physical size.
Steve, congratulations on being the first to even come close to
acknowledging reality. You follow it up with the inevitable But..., yet
this is a good first step in the twelve-step program for MFBs. :)
As someone who spends 90% of computing time on W-XP, but prefers Apple
(and has for my own compute time), I find your WFB rants a bit
disingenuous. I don't spend near as much maintaining my OS X computer
as the company spends on this W XP laptop. You just come off sounding
ignorant to someone
The commercial had one, simple premise: if you have a budget of $1,000 and
17 laptop is your target device, you are out of luck with Apple. (That
reminds me of the old adage, If you have to ask the price...).
No you are not. WFBs are just stuck on the old (and dumb) idea that a
compact home
Betty, do you think that the woman with the Swiffer actually cleans her
house with that thing? Or that it is actually her house? Or that it is a
house at all, not a stage set?
For starters the Swiffer ad is not presented as being documentary. The
Laptop Hunters ad rings false from the first
You folks have danced around this thing in every conceivable way. She's an
actress. She didn't go into the store (which you don't know). Her HP is
too heavy (it's certainly heavier than the equivalent Mac, which doesn't
exist). It's an old model (it's not). She should've gotten an iMac (to
What you can't dance around, and what not a single one of you have been
able to admit, is that if you want a 17 notebook and all you have is a
thousand bucks, you can choose between dozens of Windows laptops or zero
Macs.
Those notebooks are not really notebooks. They are compact desktops.
As someone who spends 90% of computing time on W-XP, but prefers Apple
(and has for my own compute time), I find your WFB rants a bit
disingenuous. I don't spend near as much maintaining my OS X computer
as the company spends on this W XP laptop. You just come off sounding
ignorant to
Like the Apple ads? You can spot em
On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 6:41 AM, Tom Piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote:
Betty, do you think that the woman with the Swiffer actually cleans her
house with that thing? Or that it is actually her house? Or that it is a
house at all, not a stage set?
For starters
No you are not. WFBs are just stuck on the old (and dumb) idea that a
compact home computer should be a fat laptop. That just demonstrates a
lack of imagination on the part of Windows computer manufacturers. Apple
took the trouble to think the problem through and came up with a much
better
If all MS has to offer is cheap (and only mention purchase price), then
they are in more trouble than I imagined.
Buy a Yugo or a Chrysler-Fiat; nobody (who advertizes) will sell you one
cheaper. Wow. Are they chasing Walmart?
Thank you,
Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
Mark, it's not
As someone who spends 90% of computing time on W-XP, but prefers Apple
(and has for my own compute time), I find your WFB rants a bit
disingenuous. I don't spend near as much maintaining my OS X computer
as the company spends on this W XP laptop. You just come off sounding
ignorant to
My company follows all of the mandatory MS patches, which come out a
little over one a month and push them down to desktops and servers.
My experience with Macs in corporate world was with power-users (all
engineers) who did our own patching. An administrator would notify us
of patches and we'd
On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS)
mark.sny...@ngc.com wrote:
My company follows all of the mandatory MS patches, which come out a
little over one a month and push them down to desktops and servers.
My experience with Macs in corporate world was with power-users (all
I've been using Macs since 1988 - ever since going up to the counter
of the little computer store and telling them that I figured out just
fine the computer with the folders and tiny pictures of pages on the
screen but that the other computer with the black screen and the
green letters seemed
MS doesn't offer laptops. They offer an operating system that runs on
low end laptops (and, in addition, midrange and high end). Apple offers
an OS and hardware only in the midrange and high end.
Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS) wrote:
If all MS has to offer is cheap (and only mention purchase price),
If all MS has to offer is cheap (and only mention purchase price), then
they are in more trouble than I imagined.
Buy a Yugo or a Chrysler-Fiat; nobody (who advertizes) will sell you one
cheaper. Wow. Are they chasing Walmart?
I take it that the Mac camp is OK with being seen as elitist
I learned long ago to not count on staff doing your work for you.
That's the easiest way to get burned.
We had the seniority to tell the administrator what his priorities were;
we defined his job and had him document any new processes we hadn't
already documented as we set things up.
If I had
No. So they show adds of people buying _laptops_ and showing how much
cheaper they are (with scum-sucking bottom feeder hardware).
You are very astute.
Thank you,
Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
MS doesn't offer laptops. They offer an operating system that runs on
low end laptops
That's right: MS can only brag about low-priced combos of their OS
running on cheap hardware. They are down to that, nothing else left,
except maybe sucks a little less than what we have out now?
So, if I order anything other than the cheapest thing on the menu, I am
_elitist_? What kind of
You do? Then you are not using the correct management tools.
Matthew
On Mar 30, 2009, at 11:59 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:
with my
Macs I have to visit every machine individually to patch it. That's
about 10x as much time per machine for me.
We had the seniority to tell the administrator what his priorities were;
we defined his job and had him document any new processes we hadn't
already documented as we set things up.
If I had a quarter for every question that I answered with Did you
read the email I sent out about this
Oh, a factory or business shop full of idiots who know very little,
making you look the quintessential fountain of knowledge.
Any system can be set up to run successfully, if anyone bother to set it
up. I suppose you must now judge no group capable of administering
their own computers.
Ah, now we get to it...anyone not running Apple hardware is, let me get this
right...scum sucking bottom feeders, or is it anyone not running Apple
hardware *likes* scum sucking bottom feeder hardware? I can't tell exactly
how you were insulting anyone without macs.
On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 10:11
So, if I order anything other than the cheapest thing on the menu, I am
_elitist_?
Nope. But, when you publicly sneer at those who don't have any choice
but to sit in the cheaper seats, then yes, you are an elitist snob.
What kind of warped logic is that? Are you getting
desperate?
I
You do? Then you are not using the correct management tools.
I fully understand that, but we don't have enough Macs on the network
to justify the cost at this point.
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** List info, subscription management, list rules,
I've been using Macs since 1988
I'm ready to put gaff tape over all of the Apple logos on every
computer I own. I'm ready to send an award to the advertising agency
that created this infamous advert. It gets an A++ for effectiveness
even if it never sells a single extra copy of Windows.
That can be a self fulfilling limitation though - the TCO appears high
because of the labor, limiting the number management will purchase,
with the limited number being used to justify not buying the one unit
and application that would lower the TCO ...
Matthew
On Mar 30, 2009, at 2:36
Oh, a factory or business shop full of idiots who know very little,
making you look the quintessential fountain of knowledge.
Actually, yes. That's my job; to be the resident IT expert. I also
believe in the division of labor, so that we get the highest return on
investment in staff. We have
That is strange but I think I preached on part of this topic yesterday! :-)
Stewart
At 01:39 PM 3/30/2009, you wrote:
So, if I order anything other than the cheapest thing on the menu, I am
_elitist_?
Nope. But, when you publicly sneer at those who don't have any choice
but to sit in the
That can be a self fulfilling limitation though - the TCO appears high
because of the labor, limiting the number management will purchase, with the
limited number being used to justify not buying the one unit and application
that would lower the TCO ...
Matthew - Yes I do know this already.
Subject: Re: Not cool enough [was re: Laptop Hunters] Puhleze stop
Seconded!
I'm glad I get the digest version of the list. I think I'd have to
stop collecting my email otherwise.
Agreed!
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Nope. But, when you publicly sneer at those who don't have any choice
but to sit in the cheaper seats, then yes, you are an elitist snob.
This is pointless name calling. The Mac is the cheap seats. The Mac would
come with the iWork productivity suite and iLife media suite. All
excellent
Download Open Office? :-)
Donna
In a message dated 3/30/2009 8:11:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
t...@tjpa.com writes:
Nope. But, when you publicly sneer at those who don't have any choice
but to sit in the cheaper seats, then yes, you are an elitist snob.
This is pointless name
This is pointless name calling. The Mac is the cheap seats. The Mac
would
come with the iWork productivity suite and iLife media suite. All
excellent programs.
That's called competing, and that's good. Apple is trying to create value
for their customers and I won't criticize them for that.
I think I've found Tom's problem. He needs to eat better, he is obviously
in a very weakened state and thinks 6-7 pounds is heavy.
I challenge you to start the day with 2 six-packs under you arm and carry
them whereever you go (no you can't drink the contents). This is just
another example of
What it IS about is whether or not you can get a laptop at all if you only
have $1,000 to spend. I don't see why this is so difficult for McFans to
understand.
An 8-pound laptop is a laptop in name only. If you are going to stretch
to call that a laptop then I could stretch things too and claim
You are the one who are not being honest. Nobody, but a weightlifter,
carries around a laptop that is that bulky and that heavy.
This rather skirts the fact that hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of
not-weightlifters do this every day, don't it?
This rather skirts the fact that hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of
not-weightlifters do this every day, don't it?
I used to carry around a big, bulky, heavy terminal. I know first hand
how miserable it is. People do it because they have to. Buying such an
albatross is nothing to crow
Oh Betty...where were your calls for disservice during the i'm a mac/i'm a
pc ads from Apple? Please.
She is representing a person, unlike some here, who have to work with
something called a 'budget'. I know all the mac heads drive around in their
Bentley's and put their nose up at those who
You can be cool and use a peecee. You can be a dork and use a Mac.
I think that what makes Apple's Mac vs. PC commercials so effective is
the ring of truth or at least the appeal to what people believe to be
true. The problem with MS's Laptop Hunters is that there are so many
things that ring
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