Re: [CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
For mass transit to work and not be a net drain it has to be survivable at a market price. Yep. In DC we have a world-class system, in some ways, at a lowball price. Nice trains, which are SRO in the rush hour, nice environmentally friendly buses, and low prices. Yet the city is still jammed with inefficient private automobiles. Somehow a bicyclist has to look at this picture and see a basic failure in either the development model for the city or else the civic mindedness of the people. I rhink you can network all you like, but it goes nowhere if it doesn't change attitudes. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
I kind of scratched my head when the bike locker rates seemed to double when I had to renew this year. Of course, the savings are mythical save 5$ parking (and receive health benefits) but the money saved tends to go more bike swag. I enjoy the 1.5 mile ride to the station, I tend to skip if there is snow/ice or if it is raining heavy. Metro seems to be unable to have working escalators/elevators; which is an annoyance. I still prefer Metro than bumper-to-bumper traffic. On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 02:38:20AM -0400, Eric S. Sande wrote: For mass transit to work and not be a net drain it has to be survivable at a market price. Yep. In DC we have a world-class system, in some ways, at a lowball price. Nice trains, which are SRO in the rush hour, nice environmentally friendly buses, and low prices. Yet the city is still jammed with inefficient private automobiles. Somehow a bicyclist has to look at this picture and see a basic failure in either the development model for the city or else the civic mindedness of the people. I rhink you can network all you like, but it goes nowhere if it doesn't change attitudes. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
Why not? Automobiles/ road systems were subsidized for decades in the US as were the railroads earlier and as is your cellphone now. Europe and other countries just don't BS as much about the nature of things / what it takes to make transport systems work and economies go around. They more readily accept and address the real shared costs of the transport capabilities that connect all of us individually ... including the cost of gasoline. db Matthew Taylor wrote: Not at all true in the DC metro area where I live or the NY metro area where I grew up. Lots of people commute on the trains and busses, and whenever circumstances spike ridership they have / had a cash crisis because they don't charge what it is worth. For mass transit to work and not be a net drain it has to be survivable at a market price. Cost shifting is not the answer. Matthew On May 27, 2009, at 9:19 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Again because they aim only at the lower income. If they aimed at a higher income they would make money. That is what I meant about neighborhoods not served. In Europe their public transportation does not just aim at one socio economic strata. It serves all. In Canada (One I am again familiar with) they aim at all socio economic strata. From Go Trains to street cars to buses and trains serving many different areas. Some of it is profit making some not, but since they serve a wider area, they can subsidize the unprofitable with the profitable. Like I said aim public transportation to folks above the poverty line and serve them and it will make money. Stewart At 08:02 PM 5/27/2009, you wrote: No, volume hurts most public transit because the cost to serve additional passengers is greater than the revenue received from those passengers. Yes, you can make a bit more if you are filling mostly empty busses and train cars, but when you need to expand service to need greater demand you will loose money if the increase in demand can not generate sufficient revenue to pay the cost of expanded service. It is very simple math. Public utility models assume that on average every user covers their costs. Public transit in the US typically does not. Matthew Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
We do with oil what we do with most things. We only look just past our nose and see ho much it costs me. My in-laws in Canada have been paying higher gasoline costs for years. My relatives in Germany pay exorbitant prices for oil as compared to us. Part of the reason behind this is taxation. It is how governments make their money. Their systems demand that they tax all these things to cover the costs of government providing and securing it for them. We do not always see these things and do not want to recognize them. Take the case of education. In our area we will be voting on wether or not to raise our property tax rate (local) to allow us to build a new high school. The present school is 50 years old, is out of date and needs a lot of upkeep. It could be remodeled but to keep it in compliance with the ADA it would cost almost as much to refub it as it would to build a new one. Many folks say we don't need it. The school was good enough for me, and good enough for my children it should be good enough for your children. Of course if you ask there where are your children they will tell you Montgomery, Birmingham, or Atlanta as that is where the jobs are. You see we want low prices but do not realize that our pushing for constant low ball prices short changes us in the future. We tend to be short sighted and stingy. Everything we get and do is subsidized in some way or another. We just do not realize it or are willing to pay what it really costs. Ask a truck driver how many taxes and fees he has to pay to travel on the interstates. Then ask a passenger car driver if he pays the same and the answer is no. Would we be willing to pay the same type of fees for the same access? Some municipalities have done this over time with sewer hooks ups etc. You want to hook into our sewer system the price is $xxx this is just the tie in fee, you pay the actual cost of the work that is done to do so, but in order for us to provide you this service it costs $xxx amount of dollars to hook up. Usually when we buy a house this has been part of the cost of constructing it or born by a previous owner. But it is the actual cost of doing this. Until we start looking long term instead of short term we will always have this problem. Stewart At 11:43 AM 5/28/2009, you wrote: I think you are ignoring the *and not be a net drain* part of the argument. Right now we heavily subsidize oil and all its derivatives through general taxation to support our military which supports an aggressive foreign policy intended to secure the supply of oil to the US and much of the rest of the world. Whether or not we should have such a security policy I leave as an exercise to the reader, but it is clear that we do not build into the cost of the oil the cost to secure it. By subsidizing oil we distort the market for everything that relies on oil, and everything that would compete with those market spaces. Furthermore we over use oil and its derivatives with other downstream consequences (paper or plastic?). Markets work, but as with technology GIGO applies. Matthew Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
For mass transit to work and not be a net drain it has to be survivable at a market price. Yep. In DC we have a world-class system, in some ways, at a lowball price. Nice trains, which are SRO in the rush hour, nice environmentally friendly buses, and low prices. Yet the city is still jammed with inefficient private automobiles. Somehow a bicyclist has to look at this picture and see a basic failure in either the development model for the city or else the civic mindedness of the people. I rhink you can network all you like, but it goes nowhere if it doesn't change attitudes. Many cities have downtown areas where cars aren't permitted. In Hong Kong, where there are few cars, public transport is cheap, goes everywhere, and uses RFID passes. Not so cheap in London, but I've never had to go anywhere in London that wasn't less than 1/2 mile of a bus or tube. Same for Dublin, Paris, Athens, Barcelona, and most of NYC and Philly. Gothenburg, Sweden is especially friendly for cyclists, with their own traffic lanes and signals, along side train tracks and highways. The hills are a killer though. I could take my bicycle on the trains in Sweden [I've taken a bicycle on the NYC subway]. Some buses elsewhere have bike racks. The key word is PUBLIC transportation. Public transport benefits all, whether or not you use it. I don't know of a good transportation system that isn't subsidized, but there might be some. Assuming that mass transit has to be private, existing on the whims of the marketplace is naive. The free market fantasy is killing us with pollution and bankruptcy. Should all roads be toll roads? Of course not. There has to be a balance--and free WiFi with schedules. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
Betty that is key to making it work. Make ares where Cars cannot travel. Make public transport simple and easy and you would be surprised how it works. The Europeans have us beat when it comes to most transportation ideas. Part of our problem stems back to Americas individualism and short term goals. Stewart At 02:01 PM 5/28/2009, you wrote: Many cities have downtown areas where cars aren't permitted. In Hong Kong, where there are few cars, public transport is cheap, goes everywhere, and uses RFID passes. Not so cheap in London, but I've never had to go anywhere in London that wasn't less than 1/2 mile of a bus or tube. Same for Dublin, Paris, Athens, Barcelona, and most of NYC and Philly. Gothenburg, Sweden is especially friendly for cyclists, with their own traffic lanes and signals, along side train tracks and highways. The hills are a killer though. I could take my bicycle on the trains in Sweden [I've taken a bicycle on the NYC subway]. Some buses elsewhere have bike racks. The key word is PUBLIC transportation. Public transport benefits all, whether or not you use it. I don't know of a good transportation system that isn't subsidized, but there might be some. Assuming that mass transit has to be private, existing on the whims of the marketplace is naive. The free market fantasy is killing us with pollution and bankruptcy. Should all roads be toll roads? Of course not. There has to be a balance--and free WiFi with schedules. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Anyone will tell you that if you increase your volume you increase your profit. Well, maybe anyone at GM or Chrysler would but see where they wound up. If a business continues to sell a product or service that costs $10.00 to produce for $9.00, no matter how many transactions they have they will still lose money. Seems plain enough. John Settle * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Again because they aim only at the lower income. No! If you sell something that costs $10.00 to produce for $9.00 to someone who makes $250,000 a year you still lose a Dollar. The same if selling the product to someone who makes $3,000 a year. No matter what the purchasers income level is, if you don't charge more than your costs, you lose. John Settle * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
That is called dumb business, but it was not just there fault. There were a lot of things that caused that. I lived in an area with a Goodyear plant a few years ago and they had some mighty rounds with their unions. They had to support more retirees than active workers and pay full benefits for both. Cant make a profit that way. Union eventually lowered demands and it worked out, but they have also had to cut back on factories etc. Just shipping your manufacturing overseas is not a panacea anymore. Stewart At 02:42 PM 5/28/2009, you wrote: Well, maybe anyone at GM or Chrysler would but see where they wound up. If a business continues to sell a product or service that costs $10.00 to produce for $9.00, no matter how many transactions they have they will still lose money. Seems plain enough. John Settle Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
And we will be flirting with bankruptcy in the US ... as we are now ... until we start looking at real costs and what we are spending on subsidies. No one ... not an individual nor a nation ... can plan, budget or save until you readily know what you are spending for what... db Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: We do with oil what we do with most things. We only look just past our nose and see ho much it costs me. My in-laws in Canada have been paying higher gasoline costs for years. My relatives in Germany pay exorbitant prices for oil as compared to us. Part of the reason behind this is taxation. It is how governments make their money. Their systems demand that they tax all these things to cover the costs of government providing and securing it for them. We do not always see these things and do not want to recognize them. Take the case of education. In our area we will be voting on wether or not to raise our property tax rate (local) to allow us to build a new high school. The present school is 50 years old, is out of date and needs a lot of upkeep. It could be remodeled but to keep it in compliance with the ADA it would cost almost as much to refub it as it would to build a new one. Many folks say we don't need it. The school was good enough for me, and good enough for my children it should be good enough for your children. Of course if you ask there where are your children they will tell you Montgomery, Birmingham, or Atlanta as that is where the jobs are. You see we want low prices but do not realize that our pushing for constant low ball prices short changes us in the future. We tend to be short sighted and stingy. Everything we get and do is subsidized in some way or another. We just do not realize it or are willing to pay what it really costs. Ask a truck driver how many taxes and fees he has to pay to travel on the interstates. Then ask a passenger car driver if he pays the same and the answer is no. Would we be willing to pay the same type of fees for the same access? Some municipalities have done this over time with sewer hooks ups etc. You want to hook into our sewer system the price is $xxx this is just the tie in fee, you pay the actual cost of the work that is done to do so, but in order for us to provide you this service it costs $xxx amount of dollars to hook up. Usually when we buy a house this has been part of the cost of constructing it or born by a previous owner. But it is the actual cost of doing this. Until we start looking long term instead of short term we will always have this problem. Stewart At 11:43 AM 5/28/2009, you wrote: I think you are ignoring the *and not be a net drain* part of the argument. Right now we heavily subsidize oil and all its derivatives through general taxation to support our military which supports an aggressive foreign policy intended to secure the supply of oil to the US and much of the rest of the world. Whether or not we should have such a security policy I leave as an exercise to the reader, but it is clear that we do not build into the cost of the oil the cost to secure it. By subsidizing oil we distort the market for everything that relies on oil, and everything that would compete with those market spaces. Furthermore we over use oil and its derivatives with other downstream consequences (paper or plastic?). Markets work, but as with technology GIGO applies. Matthew Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
Yes, many cities have roads paid for by tax dollars that the citizens are not allowed to freely use. How is this consistent with principals of liberty? What you call subsidy I call hiding from the taxpayer the true cost of the service delivered, convincing them they are getting a bargain when in truth they are not. It takes governments to truly distort a marketplace, and governments can also restore a free market while ensuring that costs are born by those that impose them. Of course polluters should be prevented from polluting, and when that has failed made to pay the cost of restitution and clean up. If society decides through the framework of its representatives that carbon is a pollutant then tax it sufficient to offset the societal costs it imposes (and by taxing it get less of it) by raising the costs of things that rely on carbon. Matthew On May 28, 2009, at 3:01 PM, b_s-wilk wrote: For mass transit to work and not be a net drain it has to be survivable at a market price. Many cities have downtown areas where cars aren't permitted. The key word is PUBLIC transportation. Public transport benefits all, whether or not you use it. I don't know of a good transportation system that isn't subsidized, but there might be some. Assuming that mass transit has to be private, existing on the whims of the marketplace is naive. The free market fantasy is killing us with pollution and bankruptcy. Should all roads be toll roads? Of course not. There has to be a balance--and free WiFi with schedules. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
Betty that is key to making it work. Make ares where Cars cannot travel. Make public transport simple and easy and you would be surprised how it works. The Europeans have us beat when it comes to most transportation ideas. Part of our problem stems back to Americas individualism and short term goals. Yes, and no. You're definitely right about setting long term goals. Individualism doesn't mean that people can't also work together to get good things done--selfishness does. One of the big problems is the breakdown of our education system--teaching to the tests, dumbing down the rest. When I was in school, we all had to take civics and government in high school. In grade school we had current events in Social Studies or History classes every week. We even had to learn how to read a broadsheet newspaper on public transportation by folding it so it wouldn't get in the face of someone sitting next to you. Europeans read. They read newspapers, magazines and lots of books. Our kids aren't required to read and write nearly as much as I did in school. I don't care if they can program their computers in 6th grade. They need history and geography and literature and science and a bit of economics to be educated, contributing members of society, instead of another extension of the ME generation, wallowing in their selfishness. Public transportation is an integral part of civilized society. Instead of complaining about it, make it work better--and with free WiFi. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
I am not sure what schools you are talking about but around here they are required to take at least 4 years of history/government/economics around here. Current affairs was also a requirement (It was kind of cool having my son ask for the newspaper and not seeing him turn to the comics page) I also know that the local university is heavy on history requirements. My son is a big reader (takes after his dad) but my wife abhors reading. (She will not read books period) It depends on where you are Betty. (No reading public transportation maps here no such animal) But our whole education system is a mess as we do not pay our teachers enough, we do not give them the respect they deserve, and we do not support our education with the support we should. We give them bare minimum requirements and then let the academics control the system. We need more practical teachers who have real world experience. We need more administrators that have real world experience. At present our School Superintendent is a retired LTC from the army who got his education degrees while in the army and got active in public education. He wants the best for the kids but is not afraid to demand the best out of them either. The students know he requires discipline but also so does the staff. It always depends on your perspective. Here in Alabama we are always fond of saying, thank god for Mississippi. Stewart At 07:22 PM 5/28/2009, you wrote: Yes, and no. You're definitely right about setting long term goals. Individualism doesn't mean that people can't also work together to get good things done--selfishness does. One of the big problems is the breakdown of our education system--teaching to the tests, dumbing down the rest. When I was in school, we all had to take civics and government in high school. In grade school we had current events in Social Studies or History classes every week. We even had to learn how to read a broadsheet newspaper on public transportation by folding it so it wouldn't get in the face of someone sitting next to you. Europeans read. They read newspapers, magazines and lots of books. Our kids aren't required to read and write nearly as much as I did in school. I don't care if they can program their computers in 6th grade. They need history and geography and literature and science and a bit of economics to be educated, contributing members of society, instead of another extension of the ME generation, wallowing in their selfishness. Public transportation is an integral part of civilized society. Instead of complaining about it, make it work better--and with free WiFi. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
Yes, many cities have roads paid for by tax dollars that the citizens are not allowed to freely use. How is this consistent with principals of liberty? They're called pedestrian zones. Or public transit zones. Reduces pollution. Makes downtowns more user friendly. You have the liberty to walk around or take public transportation. What you call subsidy I call hiding from the taxpayer the true cost of the service delivered, convincing them they are getting a bargain when in truth they are not. Public transportation isn't a bargain with hidden costs, it's a necessity. With that kind of logic, gasoline taxes should be at least $3-5/gallon to cover the true cost of service delivered and remediation costs. Or all subsidies for oil, gas, coal, nuclear, renewables should be removed. Then the real cost of energy will be seen. It takes governments to truly distort a marketplace, and governments can also restore a free market while ensuring that costs are born by those that impose them. Matthew, there is no free market. Never was. It's been distorted by corporations as well as governments. No free market. No free lunch. Free WiFi--YES! Fin! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
It's sort of scary how often I almost sort of agree with you. Public transportation, public education, they have tangible benefits even though I don't ride buses currently or have children in school. But I have no problem paying for them because there are valid social reasons for doing so. Constitutionally, that's the general welfare and the blessings of liberty. The haves, like you and me, pay more. That's fair. But what is more important, free Wi-Fi or track maintenance? Why should I accept being asked to pay for a frill that may be nice, but is manifestly unnecessary for the majority of transit users? I'm not turning in my Illuminati ID card that fast, sister. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
On May 27, 2009, at 8:25 PM, Matthew Taylor wrote: Nothing they can do to increase ridership will help so long as they operate under a model that has them loose money on each rider. You can't make it up in volume. Missing the big picture (once again). The point of public transportation is not to make money off of ridership. There are many indirect ways to make money. One big way is to use public transport instead of building other, much more expensive, things like roadways. A good public transport system also stimulates the economy of the region, which translates to higher tax receipts. Etc. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
On May 28, 2009, at 1:12 AM, Matthew Taylor wrote: Not at all true in the DC metro area where I live or the NY metro area where I grew up. Lots of people commute on the trains and busses Mayor Bloomberg rides the subway to work and he is worth $billions. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
GreaterGreaterWashington.com sez: Bus stop 2020: A team at MIT has designed a bus stop of the future. Riders can plan a bus trip on an interactive map, surf the Web, monitor their real-time exposure to pollutants and use their mobile devices as an interface with the bus shelter. They can also post ads and community announcements to an electronic bulletin board at the bus stop, enhancing the EyeStop's functionality as a community gathering space. Called the EyeStop... http://www.boingboing.net/2009/05/21/mits-futuristic-netw.html http://senseable.mit.edu/eyestop/ Does it also have an espresso machine? Port-o-pot? Teflon-coated glass/plastic shell? Free WiFi? Heated/cooled enclosure: I'd like that. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
Nice gadget ... too bad that in times of increased ridership because of gas prices/ economy and funding issues, most city bus systems are facing budget shortfalls and service cutbacks... Expensive gee wiz bus tech gadgets ... will that help or make the $ problem worse? Honest question ... not sarcasm... db b_s-wilk wrote: GreaterGreaterWashington.com sez: Bus stop 2020: A team at MIT has designed a bus stop of the future. Riders can plan a bus trip on an interactive map, surf the Web, monitor their real-time exposure to pollutants and use their mobile devices as an interface with the bus shelter. They can also post ads and community announcements to an electronic bulletin board at the bus stop, enhancing the EyeStop's functionality as a community gathering space. Called the EyeStop... http://www.boingboing.net/2009/05/21/mits-futuristic-netw.html http://senseable.mit.edu/eyestop/ Does it also have an espresso machine? Port-o-pot? Teflon-coated glass/plastic shell? Free WiFi? Heated/cooled enclosure: I'd like that. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
On May 27, 2009, at 1:01 PM, b_s-wilk wrote: Bus stop 2020: A team at MIT has designed a bus stop of the future. Many of the commentators shared my first thought. The one I liked best was even a step ahead... Maybe they should incorporate some kind of lightning zapper device to shoot potential disaffected teens in the face before they damage it. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
It depends. In many foreign countries public transportation is the backbone of getting from one place to the next. I know in Europe it is frequently used and well respected. The problem here is that it is not always well thought out, tends to be restricted time wise, and is not available in many areas it could have a big use for. I will be visiting Portland shortly and I know they have a wonderful system. St. Louis has a nice one also plus a few other areas I know. Some of these are the better implementations I have seen. Where I live there is not such animal. But it would come in very handy. Stewart At 05:01 PM 5/27/2009, you wrote: Nice gadget ... too bad that in times of increased ridership because of gas prices/ economy and funding issues, most city bus systems are facing budget shortfalls and service cutbacks... Expensive gee wiz bus tech gadgets ... will that help or make the $ problem worse? Honest question ... not sarcasm... db b_s-wilk wrote: GreaterGreaterWashington.com sez: Bus stop 2020: A team at MIT has designed a bus stop of the future. Riders can plan a bus trip on an interactive map, surf the Web, monitor their real-time exposure to pollutants and use their mobile devices as an interface with the bus shelter. They can also post ads and community announcements to an electronic bulletin board at the bus stop, enhancing the EyeStop's functionality as a community gathering space. Called the EyeStop... http://www.boingboing.net/2009/05/21/mits-futuristic-netw.html http://senseable.mit.edu/eyestop/ Does it also have an espresso machine? Port-o-pot? Teflon-coated glass/plastic shell? Free WiFi? Heated/cooled enclosure: I'd like that. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
On May 27, 2009, at 6:01 PM, db wrote: Expensive gee wiz bus tech gadgets ... will that help or make the $ problem worse? The bus stop near my house has a small scrolling display that shows arrival times for the next few buses. It has been in service for over a year and still working. Having this information encourages ridership. It would be even nicer if I could tap into this from my computer, like I do for Metro arrival times. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
Some university techies implemented an ingenious add-on for Seattle's Bus Metro here (called One Bus Away) that allows you to place a call or SMS text to a totally automated system, where you indicate the bus stop # by voice or SMS and it reports back by voice or text when and which buses will arrive next (by hooking into the Bus Systems GPS bus reporting system). They also have an interactive webpage that does the same thing which you can set and bookmark for the bus stop nearest you. http://onebusaway.org/where/standard/index.html All three aspects basically remove the unknowing and sometimes endless wait and planning indecision that historically you take on when you ride buses. At all times, you can easily and instantly find out the schedule and if there are any delays. To me it's an INCREDIBLY useful technical improvement for riders and probably reasonably inexpensive. Not sure who funds it since, it isn't a Seattle Metro Service... Hopefully it isn't a temporary grant situation. db Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: It depends. In many foreign countries public transportation is the backbone of getting from one place to the next. I know in Europe it is frequently used and well respected. The problem here is that it is not always well thought out, tends to be restricted time wise, and is not available in many areas it could have a big use for. I will be visiting Portland shortly and I know they have a wonderful system. St. Louis has a nice one also plus a few other areas I know. Some of these are the better implementations I have seen. Where I live there is not such animal. But it would come in very handy. Stewart At 05:01 PM 5/27/2009, you wrote: Nice gadget ... too bad that in times of increased ridership because of gas prices/ economy and funding issues, most city bus systems are facing budget shortfalls and service cutbacks... Expensive gee wiz bus tech gadgets ... will that help or make the $ problem worse? Honest question ... not sarcasm... db b_s-wilk wrote: GreaterGreaterWashington.com sez: Bus stop 2020: A team at MIT has designed a bus stop of the future. Riders can plan a bus trip on an interactive map, surf the Web, monitor their real-time exposure to pollutants and use their mobile devices as an interface with the bus shelter. They can also post ads and community announcements to an electronic bulletin board at the bus stop, enhancing the EyeStop's functionality as a community gathering space. Called the EyeStop... http://www.boingboing.net/2009/05/21/mits-futuristic-netw.html http://senseable.mit.edu/eyestop/ Does it also have an espresso machine? Port-o-pot? Teflon-coated glass/plastic shell? Free WiFi? Heated/cooled enclosure: I'd like that. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
The more customer service oriented they make it the better it is. The ones in Portland work exceptionally well and tell you where you want to go. Same with St. Louis. Came in to airports at both and got to where I needed to be with no problems. Stewart At 05:37 PM 5/27/2009, you wrote: On May 27, 2009, at 6:01 PM, db wrote: Expensive gee wiz bus tech gadgets ... will that help or make the $ problem worse? The bus stop near my house has a small scrolling display that shows arrival times for the next few buses. It has been in service for over a year and still working. Having this information encourages ridership. It would be even nicer if I could tap into this from my computer, like I do for Metro arrival times. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
Nothing they can do to increase ridership will help so long as they operate under a model that has them loose money on each rider. You can't make it up in volume. Matthew On May 27, 2009, at 6:01 PM, db wrote: Nice gadget ... too bad that in times of increased ridership because of gas prices/ economy and funding issues, most city bus systems are facing budget shortfalls and service cutbacks... Expensive gee wiz bus tech gadgets ... will that help or make the $ problem worse? Honest question ... not sarcasm... db * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
Volume does help. The problem I see that they need to correct is a view of public transportation as ill suited to anyone with an income over the poverty level in some cities. Anyone will tell you that if you increase your volume you increase your profit. Most public transportation does not get into enough neighborhoods (not in my back yard) and reach enough people to make it truly cost effective. I lived in one city (when I was growing up) that did not reach our neighborhood with the bus for 15 years! My mother had a cleaning lady and if she could not drive or get a ride she had no way of getting to our house until they extended the bus routes. The other problem was they cut off the bus in the early afternoon. DUMB. Operating a public transportation service like a public utility might make better sense and try and reach more people Just a thought. Stewart At 07:25 PM 5/27/2009, you wrote: Nothing they can do to increase ridership will help so long as they operate under a model that has them loose money on each rider. You can't make it up in volume. Matthew On May 27, 2009, at 6:01 PM, db wrote: Nice gadget ... too bad that in times of increased ridership because of gas prices/ economy and funding issues, most city bus systems are facing budget shortfalls and service cutbacks... Expensive gee wiz bus tech gadgets ... will that help or make the $ problem worse? Honest question ... not sarcasm... db * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
No, volume hurts most public transit because the cost to serve additional passengers is greater than the revenue received from those passengers. Yes, you can make a bit more if you are filling mostly empty busses and train cars, but when you need to expand service to need greater demand you will loose money if the increase in demand can not generate sufficient revenue to pay the cost of expanded service. It is very simple math. Public utility models assume that on average every user covers their costs. Public transit in the US typically does not. Matthew On May 27, 2009, at 8:34 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Volume does help. The problem I see that they need to correct is a view of public transportation as ill suited to anyone with an income over the poverty level in some cities. Anyone will tell you that if you increase your volume you increase your profit. Most public transportation does not get into enough neighborhoods (not in my back yard) and reach enough people to make it truly cost effective. I lived in one city (when I was growing up) that did not reach our neighborhood with the bus for 15 years! My mother had a cleaning lady and if she could not drive or get a ride she had no way of getting to our house until they extended the bus routes. The other problem was they cut off the bus in the early afternoon. DUMB. Operating a public transportation service like a public utility might make better sense and try and reach more people Just a thought. Stewart At 07:25 PM 5/27/2009, you wrote: Nothing they can do to increase ridership will help so long as they operate under a model that has them loose money on each rider. You can't make it up in volume. Matthew On May 27, 2009, at 6:01 PM, db wrote: Nice gadget ... too bad that in times of increased ridership because of gas prices/ economy and funding issues, most city bus systems are facing budget shortfalls and service cutbacks... Expensive gee wiz bus tech gadgets ... will that help or make the $ problem worse? Honest question ... not sarcasm... db * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] MIT's futuristic, networked bus stop design
Again because they aim only at the lower income. If they aimed at a higher income they would make money. That is what I meant about neighborhoods not served. In Europe their public transportation does not just aim at one socio economic strata. It serves all. In Canada (One I am again familiar with) they aim at all socio economic strata. From Go Trains to street cars to buses and trains serving many different areas. Some of it is profit making some not, but since they serve a wider area, they can subsidize the unprofitable with the profitable. Like I said aim public transportation to folks above the poverty line and serve them and it will make money. Stewart At 08:02 PM 5/27/2009, you wrote: No, volume hurts most public transit because the cost to serve additional passengers is greater than the revenue received from those passengers. Yes, you can make a bit more if you are filling mostly empty busses and train cars, but when you need to expand service to need greater demand you will loose money if the increase in demand can not generate sufficient revenue to pay the cost of expanded service. It is very simple math. Public utility models assume that on average every user covers their costs. Public transit in the US typically does not. Matthew Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
