On Tuesday, April 9, 2002, at 07:43 PM, Faustine wrote:
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Hash: SHA1
Tim wrote:
Physics-wise, it's a jiveass fantasy. No way are there micro-strips
readable from a distance in today's currency, and very likely not in
the
next 20 years.
I'm not so
At 8:55 PM -0800 3/30/02, Tim May wrote:
I've seen no convincing arguments from the E-gold enthusiasts that
E-gold is anything more than magical thinking.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe E-gold has ever claimed
anonymity. But as a bailee, which is what they do advertise being,
I used to feel reasonably safe using PGP 2.6.2. I still use it, but not the
unix port whose code I actually looked at and ran some test vectors on. I use
ports on non-unix boxes that I have no source for, and on some newer machines I
even used (oh, shame) 7.0.3 several times.
So I don't think
World Bank to West Bank
'The movement to which many of the peace activists risking their lives in
Ramallah and Bethlehem belong has no name. Some people have called it an
anti-globalisation or anti-corporate or anti-capitalist campaign. Others
prefer to emphasise its positive agenda, calling
Quoting Nob Odie ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
Any comments?
Yes. Your repetition of the phrase `get the disks' makes me think of
Mormonism, but I can't explain exactly why that is.
Regards,
Steve
--
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--
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'Hacktivists' rage against the machine
By Jenny Sinclair
April 9 2002
From a stone farmhouse in west Wales to a home in France, the cyber
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The Hacktivists, a
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On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 06:45:43AM -0700, Mike Rosing wrote:
On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Adam Back wrote:
If you use the normal approach of putting the identity in the coin,
you can't double-spend anonymously.
But it's not until the coin goes back online, you need the minter's secret
key to
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Adam Back wrote:
You don't need the minter's secret key to identify the double-spender.
Anyone who happens to see two coin transcripts answering different
challenges with the same coin private key can recover all the
attributes of the coin, including the identity
Tim May[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Tuesday, April 9, 2002, at 10:54 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
Putting RF Tags in cash is one of those ideas with Unintended
Consequences.
Muggers would love having a way of determining which victims are
carrying a
wad, as would many salesmen (and JBTs
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Trei, Peter wrote:
So, yes, at the moment they can't scan your wallet very easily. But
this technology is developing as all others are. I don't know about
dealing with many similar tags more or less simultaneously, but some
of the discussed apps for stock tracking
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Eugen Leitl wrote:
The tags are passive. All tags (whether inductive or electrostatic) must
be energized from the outside. The pumping energy can be shielded, as can
the RF emission of the tags itself. The environment is noisy. The tags
send simultaneously from the
Tim May [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tuesday, April 9, 2002, at 10:54 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
Putting RF Tags in cash is one of those ideas with Unintended
Consequences.
Muggers would love having a way of determining which victims are
carrying a
wad, as would many salesmen (and JBTs looking to
[Unfortunate that a paper llike the Times would confusing hacking and
simple sabotage by a fired
sysop. Since lost time is part of the damages, why isn't spam
illegal?]
Hacker Gets 16 Months for Crashing Firm's Computers
[*]
By JEAN GUCCIONE, TIMES STAFF WRITER
A disgruntled former employee
Michael Motyka[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Tim May [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tuesday, April 9, 2002, at 10:54 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
Putting RF Tags in cash is one of those ideas with Unintended
Consequences.
Muggers would love having a way of determining which victims are
carrying a
Trei, Peter wrote:
Michael Motyka[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Tim May [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tuesday, April 9, 2002, at 10:54 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
Putting RF Tags in cash is one of those ideas with Unintended
Consequences.
Muggers would love having a way of determining which
Tim May writes:
I'll go back to lurking, as this thread, so to speak, is not
interesting to me.
(More interesting is reading Chris Hillman's page with his Categorical
Primer on it, http://www.math.washington.edu/~hillman/papers.html. And
to BL and JA, I downloaded O'CAML and picked up a
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 07:44 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
Tim: I advise you to get up to speed on this stuff.
I think I'm more up to speed on small detectors than I want to be
(through my involvement with an ultrawideband company).
But I misunderstood the discussions about currency being
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On Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 08:23 AM, Michael Motyka wrote:
Or more.
Not to mention that if you didn't want your money chirping its presence
every time a bad actor pinged it you could just disable the transponder
in the money :
mechanical pressure or repeated bending
high voltage
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 09:24 AM, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote:
[Unfortunate that a paper llike the Times would confusing hacking and
simple sabotage by a fired
sysop. Since lost time is part of the damages, why isn't spam
illegal?]
Because one act is initiation of force and the other
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 09:27 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
For paper money failure rates will probably be high anyway.
Perhaps, perhaps not. Remember, the primary app for this is
anti-counterfeiting.
Sir: ALL your $20 bills are failing authentication. Please wait
while I call
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Tim May wrote:
The engineers of such SmartWallets will not give them more range than
the protocol needs. Extra range costs money. If Alice is expected to
insert her Smart Wallet into a receptacle (for security, if for nothing
else), initiating the protocol from several
--
From: Tim May[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 1:59 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Detectable cash notes a fantasy
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 09:27 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
For paper money failure rates will probably
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On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:22:04PM -0400, Trei, Peter wrote:
| If a stack of bills containing these transponders are supposed to be
| read from afar, way beyond what a valid bill detector is likely to be
| engineered to do, I'd like to see the physics worked out.
|
| Detection range turns
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Tim wrote:
Everytime I comment on your citations, you go into a snit about how
Gramps is insulting the whippersnappers.
No, it's all about the condescending tone you take when you use your many
years of experience as leverage against anyone who
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 11:22 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
Detection range turns out to be function of antenna size - the reader's
antenna, not the one on the transponder. So if you have a big (eg,
doorframe size) antenna, you can do a lot better than the 'valid bill
detector' on the
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 11:22 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
The argument against shielding is that it is obnoxious that I
(or anyone) should have to go even further than I already do to
maintain even a fraction of the privacy which was naturally available to
every person 150 years ago.
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Tim May wrote:
So, if in fact we _are_ talking about each $20 bill having such a
transponder, then why are our arguments about how easy it will be to
shield against remote probing not valid?
Because the economics do not work. People simply aren't
knowledgeable/interested
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Tim May wrote:
A meter-sized antenna is not going to efficiently radiate
sub-millimeter-sized waves.
But it does give you brutal directivity. If you're truly working with
sub-millimeter waves, you might be able to discriminate between individual
bills with a phased array
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Peter Gutmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] previously stated:
Being in the US and having to handle wads of tattered, grubby $1 notes,
many of which wouldn't be accepted by vending machines because of their
condition or weren't the sort of thing you'd
want to touch just before you ate the food you'd
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-04/nios-bit041002.php
--
The law is applied philosophy and a philosphical system is
only as valid as its first principles.
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only as valid as its first principles.
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-Original Message-
From: Michael Motyka [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 8:24 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Detectable cash notes a fantasy
Tim May [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tuesday, April 9,
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 12:25 PM, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Tim May wrote:
(A stack of bills, or cards, will have extremely poor radiation
patterns
from any but the top or bottom bill, and probably their patterns won't
be good either.)
How come? True, if a bill
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On Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 11:58 AM, Faustine wrote:
If, when I came here, I had made the deliberate choice to make an
effort at
getting along by emphasizing our similarities instead of differences,
I dare
say the motivation to dissect-and-destroy every last comment I ever
make
How do we trust bits to represent money? Someone asked this (Mike
Rosing, I think it was).
I argue that the question is, as stated, not well-grounded at this time.
No one is asking for bits to be trusted, from first principles, absent
real products and a real embedding in a financial system.
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At 07:29 PM 4/10/2002 -0700, Tim May wrote:
How do we trust bits to represent money?
I argue that the question is, as stated, not well-grounded at this time.
I agree.
It is interesting to be back on cypherpunks after a five or more year vacation,
only to find most of the same discussions we
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Hash: SHA1
Tim wrote:
Faustine wrote:
If, when I came here, I had made the deliberate choice to make an
effort at getting along by emphasizing our similarities instead of
differences, I dare say the motivation to dissect-and-destroy every last
comment I
In lieu of Mr. bin Laden, we'll regurgitate what we have:
Those measures prohibit Rahman's attorneys from using any
meetings or correspondence with him to pass messages from
third parties. Under a court order, their communications with
Rahman were monitored for several years, Ashcroft said.
-- Forwarded message --
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 21:45:52 -0400
Subject: Inferno: IPCop: a Linux FW/IDS/VPN package all nicely paranoid and GPLed...
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At 8:55 PM -0800 3/30/02, Tim May wrote:
I've seen no convincing arguments from the E-gold enthusiasts that
E-gold is anything more than magical thinking.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe E-gold has ever claimed
anonymity. But as a bailee, which is what they do advertise being,
Any comments?
1. The IRS is not a U.S. Government Agency. It is an Agency of the IMF.
(Diversified Metal Products v.
IRS et al. CV-93-405E-EJE U.S.D.C.D.I., Public Law 94-564, Senate Report
94-1148 pg. 5967, Reorganization
Plan No. 26, Public Law 102-391.)
2. The IMF is an Agency of the UN.
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Trei, Peter wrote:
So, yes, at the moment they can't scan your wallet very easily. But
this technology is developing as all others are. I don't know about
dealing with many similar tags more or less simultaneously, but some
of the discussed apps for stock tracking
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Adam Back wrote:
You don't need the minter's secret key to identify the double-spender.
Anyone who happens to see two coin transcripts answering different
challenges with the same coin private key can recover all the
attributes of the coin, including the identity
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Eugen Leitl wrote:
The tags are passive. All tags (whether inductive or electrostatic) must
be energized from the outside. The pumping energy can be shielded, as can
the RF emission of the tags itself. The environment is noisy. The tags
send simultaneously from the
Michael Motyka[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Tim May [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tuesday, April 9, 2002, at 10:54 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
Putting RF Tags in cash is one of those ideas with Unintended
Consequences.
Muggers would love having a way of determining which victims are
carrying a
Tim May writes:
I'll go back to lurking, as this thread, so to speak, is not
interesting to me.
(More interesting is reading Chris Hillman's page with his Categorical
Primer on it, http://www.math.washington.edu/~hillman/papers.html. And
to BL and JA, I downloaded O'CAML and picked up a
Trei, Peter wrote:
Michael Motyka[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Tim May [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tuesday, April 9, 2002, at 10:54 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
Putting RF Tags in cash is one of those ideas with Unintended
Consequences.
Muggers would love having a way of determining which
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Tim May wrote:
The engineers of such SmartWallets will not give them more range than
the protocol needs. Extra range costs money. If Alice is expected to
insert her Smart Wallet into a receptacle (for security, if for nothing
else), initiating the protocol from several
--
From: Tim May[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 1:59 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Detectable cash notes a fantasy
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 09:27 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
For paper money failure rates will probably
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 11:22 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
The argument against shielding is that it is obnoxious that I
(or anyone) should have to go even further than I already do to
maintain even a fraction of the privacy which was naturally available to
every person 150 years ago.
On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:22:04PM -0400, Trei, Peter wrote:
| If a stack of bills containing these transponders are supposed to be
| read from afar, way beyond what a valid bill detector is likely to be
| engineered to do, I'd like to see the physics worked out.
|
| Detection range turns
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Tim wrote:
Everytime I comment on your citations, you go into a snit about how
Gramps is insulting the whippersnappers.
No, it's all about the condescending tone you take when you use your many
years of experience as leverage against anyone who
On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:59:32AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
| On Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 09:27 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
| For paper money failure rates will probably be high anyway.
| So, if in fact we _are_ talking about each $20 bill having such a
| transponder, then why are our arguments
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Tim May wrote:
So, if in fact we _are_ talking about each $20 bill having such a
transponder, then why are our arguments about how easy it will be to
shield against remote probing not valid?
Because the economics do not work. People simply aren't
knowledgeable/interested
Peter Gutmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] previously stated:
Being in the US and having to handle wads of tattered, grubby $1 notes,
many of which wouldn't be accepted by vending machines because of their
condition or weren't the sort of thing you'd
want to touch just before you ate the food you'd
I've had several dozen of these (stamp and other vending machines provided
them as change here in NYC), and kept only one. They're horrible. Sure,
they look like gold when you get them but they oxidize quickly when
handled and look worse than old pennies.
Serves the mint right for trying to
On 10 Apr 2002 at 13:43, Sunder wrote:
I've had several dozen of these (stamp and other vending machines provided
them as change here in NYC), and kept only one.
You're not supposed to keep currency, you're supposed to spend it.
I generally prefer the bills to coins, because the coins make
On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 07:47:51PM -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote:
In the smart card setting with Brands protocols there is a host
computer (eg pda, laptop, mobile-phone main processor, desktop) and a
tamper-resistant smart-card which computes part of the coin transfer
and prevents
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 12:25 PM, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Tim May wrote:
(A stack of bills, or cards, will have extremely poor radiation
patterns
from any but the top or bottom bill, and probably their patterns won't
be good either.)
How come? True, if a bill
30 seconds in a microwave on high, stir and rotate tray...
-Original Message-
From: Michael Motyka [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 8:24 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Detectable cash notes a fantasy
Tim May [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tuesday, April 9,
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Adam Back wrote:
Is there anything specific PKILAB have said about Brands certs?
No, it was early in the set up when it was discussed. Sounds like
they want to at least listen to him :-)
btw I did a google search for PKILAB and Brands to see if I could find
anything
How do we trust bits to represent money? Someone asked this (Mike
Rosing, I think it was).
I argue that the question is, as stated, not well-grounded at this time.
No one is asking for bits to be trusted, from first principles, absent
real products and a real embedding in a financial system.
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