Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Brian]

On Thu 15 Sep 2016 at 19:07:46 +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:

> On Thursday 15 September 2016 13:38:49 Brian wrote:
> > On Thu 15 Sep 2016 at 11:01:12 +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > > Are you deliberately remaining uncontactable off list?  You must be
> > > sending
> >
> > I am not uncontactable.
> >
> > > from one email address and receiving to another, since the email address
> > >  still doesn't work, and you are getting list
> > > emails.
> >
> > The system delivering the mail (which I do not control) definitely works
> > because you got a helpful mail by return. That mail did not come from my
> > mail system.
> 
> No, the emails I tried to send off-list got rejection messages, not helpful 
> replies.

What if Royal Mail told you they were unable to deliver a letter you had
put into one of their nice red pillar boxes? Wouldn't that be useful
information you could take action on? If you sent a letter to 123 M7 9QD
in the UK and it wasn't returned you would surely assume Royal Mail had
delivered it? I'd dispute that bounce messages are not useful. Problems
very often arise when mail has been delivered but there is no feedback.

> > As a matter of interest: suppose you had received no rejection message;
> > what would you think? 
> 
> I would assume that you had had the email and ignored it.

Why should *I* have the mail? If the receiving system doesn't pass it on
to me I'll never see it. The best you can say is that the receiving
system accepted the mail via SMTP. What happens after that has nothing
to do with SMTP. Another system accepts the mail from the SMTP
transaction and deals with it. Knowledge of what happens there could be
non-existent unless the accepting system chooses to tell you.

The mail is accepted. What the receving system does with it is up to it.
It could put the mail through a spam detection system which deletes the
mail or not let a user download it without paying. None of this process
is under the control of the recipient; she gets what the receiving
system decides she gets. The sending system also has no say in the
matter

Think of all the mails which come through your letter-box; Royal Mail
(SMTP) has done its job. The sender has had the letter delivered; they
get no bounce message so think the recipient has receved it. But,
unbeknownst to you, or Royal Mail, someone in the house filters out some
of the mail. You may never know this happens.

Acceptance of mail by the mail system does not imply or guarantee the
recipient receives a mail. It depends on what happens after the
acceptance (which is  not controlled by the recipient or the sending
system).

> > Working from those thoughts: suppose you never 
> > received a reply from me? What would go through you mind?
> 
> If you were continuing to reply to the list I would assume that I was being 
> ignored for some reason.  If you were not posting to the list I would worry 
> fruitlessly about you and miss your contribution.

My mail to the list and the mail entering my inbox are completely
independent. Think about it; there is no connection between the two
processes. However, even though the assumption is unsustainable, I
understand what you are saying. It is natural to think that sending
something means it gets there. After all, in 9,999 cases out of 10,000
it does.

> > > If you are prepared to be contacted off-line, but don't want to publish
> > > the address here, may I have it?  You have my email address!!
> >
> > The address *is* published here. Please see the final two paragraphs of
> >
> >   https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/08/msg00997.html
> 
> Yes, I am sorry.  I did look.  But I am partially sighted, headers are 
> difficult, I was in a hurry and I knew that you had been having a problem 
> with ?Demon? and that address that you were wondering how to resolve.

Demon have decided that mail provision has been free all these years.
"Free" means it is not subject to contact and consequently can be moved
elsewhere and made accessible for a fee. I am too tightfisted to pay for
"elsewhere".

> I will copy and paste your headers into a word processor so that I can edit 
> them into legibility and go from there.

You'll get there. Say if you don't.

-- 
Brian.

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Lisi Reisz]

On Thursday 15 September 2016 13:38:49 Brian wrote:
> On Thu 15 Sep 2016 at 11:01:12 +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > Are you deliberately remaining uncontactable off list?  You must be
> > sending
>
> I am not uncontactable.
>
> > from one email address and receiving to another, since the email address
> >  still doesn't work, and you are getting list
> > emails.
>
> The system delivering the mail (which I do not control) definitely works
> because you got a helpful mail by return. That mail did not come from my
> mail system.

No, the emails I tried to send off-list got rejection messages, not helpful 
replies.
>
> As a matter of interest: suppose you had received no rejection message;
> what would you think? 

I would assume that you had had the email and ignored it.

> Working from those thoughts: suppose you never 
> received a reply from me? What would go through you mind?

If you were continuing to reply to the list I would assume that I was being 
ignored for some reason.  If you were not posting to the list I would worry 
fruitlessly about you and miss your contribution.
>
> > If you are prepared to be contacted off-line, but don't want to publish
> > the address here, may I have it?  You have my email address!!
>
> The address *is* published here. Please see the final two paragraphs of
>
>   https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/08/msg00997.html

Yes, I am sorry.  I did look.  But I am partially sighted, headers are 
difficult, I was in a hurry and I knew that you had been having a problem 
with ?Demon? and that address that you were wondering how to resolve.

I will copy and paste your headers into a word processor so that I can edit 
them into legibility and go from there.

Lisi

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Brian]

On Thu 15 Sep 2016 at 11:01:12 +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:

> Are you deliberately remaining uncontactable off list?  You must be sending 

I am not uncontactable.

> from one email address and receiving to another, since the email address  
>  still doesn't work, and you are getting list emails.

The system delivering the mail (which I do not control) definitely works
because you got a helpful mail by return. That mail did not come from my
mail system.

As a matter of interest: suppose you had received no rejection message;
what would you think? Working from those thoughts: suppose you never
received a reply from me? What would go through you mind?

> If you are prepared to be contacted off-line, but don't want to publish the 
> address here, may I have it?  You have my email address!!

The address *is* published here. Please see the final two paragraphs of

  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/08/msg00997.html

-- 
Brian.

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Lisi Reisz]

On Thursday 15 September 2016 00:50:25 Brian wrote:
> On Thu 15 Sep 2016 at 00:33:09 +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > On Wednesday 14 September 2016 23:09:12 Brian wrote:
> > > >        Ah. That's good.  Your E-mail reader seems to respect my
> > > > indentations.  Others don't, alas.  Do you perchance use mutt?
> >
> > Indentations count as formatting.  Plain text is supposed not to preserve
> > formatting.
>
> I think you can be excused from thinking I wrote that but I didn't.
> Nothing for anyone to get bothered about as far as I am concerned.

I'm sorry.  That was carelessness.  It is a "fault" in my email client that it 
tends to get the attributions of emails wrong when it is asked in advance to 
trim for a reply. I do know that I should check, and not doing so is plain 
carelessness.  

For the record, it was *Alan* whose indentations my (and many other) email 
clients *correctly* did not preserve.  It has been instructed to use plain 
text.  (Another instruction it doesn't always obey, but therein hangs another 
story.)

Are you deliberately remaining uncontactable off list?  You must be sending 
from one email address and receiving to another, since the email address  
 still doesn't work, and you are getting list emails.  
If you are prepared to be contacted off-line, but don't want to publish the 
address here, may I have it?  You have my email address!!

Lisi

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Alan McConnell]

- Original Message -
From: "Brian" 
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 5:09:12 PM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

> What is "unenlightening" to you may not be unenlightening to others;
> trust me on that. "garbage" is *your* value judgement; 
>  No, I'm going to insist on my "garbage" denotation.  Since I have a 
> very
>  acceptable way of going from one OS to another, your input on what 
> os-prober
>  returned to me is of little interest to me, and much less to the 
> other members
>  of this E-list, I'm sure.

You can insist on what you want. It is easy when only you know what the
the output is.
I've seen error messages before.




>  an expert programmer, which I used to be but am not any more, could 
> put those
>  few simple steps into a "first of all" window.  Maybe a simple grub 
> file?

That's fine; it does what you want and will serve you well. Stick with
it. but forget about involving GRUB.
  But a flow chart to do it would be easy:
  Read input
 if input=L then
 do nothing
 else if input=W, then
 change boot method to Windows Boot Manager
 else
 return to read input
 fi
Something like that could be easily implemented, methinks.  But 
I'm
not going to do it.




>  Yes.  If I could move stuff from my Windows OS to my Jessie, and vice
>  versa, that would be a big help.  Any suggestions from anyone about 
> that?
>  Linux used to be able to go into MS-DOS and put files there and get 
> files
>  out of there.  Has anyone any information on that?

I rather think there is an answer in the response you quoted.
 I didn't see it.  Remind me.




>xorg(or maybe it was x11), and my 'startx', from my old 
> wheezy(fortunately
>saved) worked, after I'd done a few tweeks to my .xinitrc.  I tried my
>old beloved sawfish(now wmctl) but that didn't work as well as 
> metacity.

Good. (Your technique is extraordinary but comments on it are outside
the scope of this thread).
 Thank you!  I would rather start off with a X-less tty1 and then enter 
X
 with my own choice of what to run, how the background looks, etc.  
startx,
 with a good .xinit, does all I want.  Simplicity, dear my lord,
 makes computing yare. 



> a username and password which got me, and keeps me, online . . . but only for 
> the
> Windoze side.  I gotta do some exploring to see if I can make this work with 
> Jessie.

I'm confident you are resourceful and will manage.
 I trust that your confidence in me is not misplaced.

Alan

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Brian]

On Thu 15 Sep 2016 at 00:33:09 +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:

> On Wednesday 14 September 2016 23:09:12 Brian wrote:
> > >        Ah. That's good.  Your E-mail reader seems to respect my
> > > indentations.  Others don't, alas.  Do you perchance use mutt?
> 
> Indentations count as formatting.  Plain text is supposed not to preserve 
> formatting.

I think you can be excused from thinking I wrote that but I didn't.
Nothing for anyone to get bothered about as far as I am concerned.

-- 
Brian.

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Lisi Reisz]

On Wednesday 14 September 2016 23:09:12 Brian wrote:
> >        Ah. That's good.  Your E-mail reader seems to respect my
> > indentations.  Others don't, alas.  Do you perchance use mutt?

Indentations count as formatting.  Plain text is supposed not to preserve 
formatting.

Lisi

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Brian]

On Wed 14 Sep 2016 at 17:11:26 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:

Alan McConnell's responses are indented and begin with >.

> From: "Brian" 

Brian's resonses are not indented.

> 
> >  Yep.  I have been back to my Jessie in the meantime, and run 
> > os-prober.
> >  I didn't attempt to copy down on a piece of paper what it wrote; 
> > trust me
> >  that it was unenlightening garbage.
>Ah. That's good.  Your E-mail reader seems to respect my indentations. 
>  Others
>don't, alas.  Do you perchance use mutt?

Perchance.
 
> What is "unenlightening" to you may not be unenlightening to others;
> trust me on that. "garbage" is *your* value judgement; 
>  No, I'm going to insist on my "garbage" denotation.  Since I have a 
> very
>  acceptable way of going from one OS to another, your input on what 
> os-prober
>  returned to me is of little interest to me, and much less to the 
> other members
>  of this E-list, I'm sure.

You can insist on what you want. It is easy when only you know what the
the output is.

> 
>  But I'd like to defend what Lisi calls a "kludge".  Here is what I 
> do: when I
>  boot, or reboot my machine, if I do nothing I get my Jessie, which 
> is what I
>  want.  If I want to go to Windoze, I gotta hold the F12, as Felix 
> Mieta taught
>  me several moons ago, and then I get put into a nice menu: Choose 
> the boot
>  manager.  I use my Arrow keys to get to Windows boot manager, and 
> voila! in a
>  few seconds I'm in Windoze.  Not so difficult after all.  And I 
> would think that
>  an expert programmer, which I used to be but am not any more, could 
> put those
>  few simple steps into a "first of all" window.  Maybe a simple grub 
> file?

That's fine; it does what you want and will serve you well. Stick with
it. but forget about involving GRUB.
 
> We Debian users yearn for the day when copy 'n paste and USB sticks are
> invented. It will make things so much easier to move information (which
> is severely lacking from you in this thread) about.
>  Yes.  If I could move stuff from my Windows OS to my Jessie, and vice
>  versa, that would be a big help.  Any suggestions from anyone about 
> that?
>  Linux used to be able to go into MS-DOS and put files there and get 
> files
>  out of there.  Has anyone any information on that?

I rather think there is an answer in the response you quoted.
 
> > > Should you be game to try installing Jessie again, you might try a 
> > > network 
> > > installation started via a Stretch installer. 
> >  Jeez!  I can't even run X11 on my present install(*) let alone get 
> > on
> >  line.
>That situation has changed as of just an hour ago.  I did a reinstall 
> of
>xorg(or maybe it was x11), and my 'startx', from my old 
> wheezy(fortunately
>saved) worked, after I'd done a few tweeks to my .xinitrc.  I tried my
>old beloved sawfish(now wmctl) but that didn't work as well as 
> metacity.

Good. (Your technique is extraordinary but comments on it are outside
the scope of this thread).

> > (*)  Does anyone here know how to create a .Xauthority file?  That is one 
> > of the
> > things the Jessie installer failed to provide me with.
> 
> You've asked this five months ago:
> I did indeed.  That was before my old machine gave up the ghost.  I 
> am 
> impressed, Brian, that you keep such careful track of me.

I have a reasonably good memory. It was GNOME not installing libreoffice
which triggered the connections. So unusual. You never responded to that
either at the time it was pointed out.

> My final problem is: how to get my Jessie to get on line.  I don't think this 
> is
> anything anyone here can help me with, since I live in a retirement community
> which has a huge contract with Comcast.  I called a tech person here, and he 
> gave me
> a username and password which got me, and keeps me, online . . . but only for 
> the
> Windoze side.  I gotta do some exploring to see if I can make this work with 
> Jessie.

I'm confident you are resourceful and will manage.

-- 
Brian.

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Alan McConnell]

- Original Message -
From: "Brian" 
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 1:51:50 PM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

On Wed 14 Sep 2016 at 11:34:31 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:

> From: "Felix Miata" 
> 
> It does seem curious that the Debian installer would need knowledge of a 
> particular Windows version in order to provide a boot menu selection for it, 
> rather than simply having one that says "Windows", booting from whatever 
> non-native/NTFS filesystem it happens to find containing anything resembling 
> boot sector code.

This following quotes beginning with > are from Alan McConnell.

>  Yep.  I have been back to my Jessie in the meantime, and run 
> os-prober.
>  I didn't attempt to copy down on a piece of paper what it wrote; 
> trust me
>  that it was unenlightening garbage.
   Ah. That's good.  Your E-mail reader seems to respect my indentations.  
Others
   don't, alas.  Do you perchance use mutt?

What is "unenlightening" to you may not be unenlightening to others;
trust me on that. "garbage" is *your* value judgement; 
 No, I'm going to insist on my "garbage" denotation.  Since I have a 
very
 acceptable way of going from one OS to another, your input on what 
os-prober
 returned to me is of little interest to me, and much less to the other 
members
 of this E-list, I'm sure.

 But I'd like to defend what Lisi calls a "kludge".  Here is what I do: 
when I
 boot, or reboot my machine, if I do nothing I get my Jessie, which is 
what I
 want.  If I want to go to Windoze, I gotta hold the F12, as Felix 
Mieta taught
 me several moons ago, and then I get put into a nice menu: Choose the 
boot
 manager.  I use my Arrow keys to get to Windows boot manager, and 
voila! in a
 few seconds I'm in Windoze.  Not so difficult after all.  And I would 
think that
 an expert programmer, which I used to be but am not any more, could 
put those
 few simple steps into a "first of all" window.  Maybe a simple grub 
file?


We Debian users yearn for the day when copy 'n paste and USB sticks are
invented. It will make things so much easier to move information (which
is severely lacking from you in this thread) about.
 Yes.  If I could move stuff from my Windows OS to my Jessie, and vice
 versa, that would be a big help.  Any suggestions from anyone about 
that?
 Linux used to be able to go into MS-DOS and put files there and get 
files
 out of there.  Has anyone any information on that?

> > Should you be game to try installing Jessie again, you might try a network 
> > installation started via a Stretch installer. 
>  Jeez!  I can't even run X11 on my present install(*) let alone get on
>  line.
   That situation has changed as of just an hour ago.  I did a reinstall of
   xorg(or maybe it was x11), and my 'startx', from my old 
wheezy(fortunately
   saved) worked, after I'd done a few tweeks to my .xinitrc.  I tried my
   old beloved sawfish(now wmctl) but that didn't work as well as metacity.

> (*)  Does anyone here know how to create a .Xauthority file?  That is one of 
> the
> things the Jessie installer failed to provide me with.

You've asked this five months ago:
I did indeed.  That was before my old machine gave up the ghost.  I am 
impressed, Brian, that you keep such careful track of me.

My final problem is: how to get my Jessie to get on line.  I don't think this is
anything anyone here can help me with, since I live in a retirement community
which has a huge contract with Comcast.  I called a tech person here, and he 
gave me
a username and password which got me, and keeps me, online . . . but only for 
the
Windoze side.  I gotta do some exploring to see if I can make this work with 
Jessie.


>  You are probably asking the wrong question.


Best wishes to all, even to Lisi!

Alan

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Alan McConnell]

- Original Message -
From: "Lisi Reisz" 
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 2:05:47 PM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

On Wednesday 14 September 2016 19:51:50 Brian wrote:
> You are probably asking the wrong question.

Oh, no, Brian.  He is asking the right question by definition.  Alan is asking 
it, it is therefore right.
   Lisi, is this kind of post helpful?  Is that a question that you even ask
   yourself?  For some reason you've taken a dislike to me, at a distance of
   5000 miles.  That's OK, no skin off my nose.  But you are starting to 
irritate
   other members of this E-list.  So please: make sure from now on that your
   posts contain information, and not just name-calling.  We'd all 
appreciate it.

TIA,

Alan

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Lisi Reisz]

On Wednesday 14 September 2016 19:51:50 Brian wrote:
> You are probably asking the wrong question.

Oh, no, Brian.  He is asking the right question by definition.  Alan is asking 
it, it is therefore right.

We are providing the wrong answers.  And to make matters worse we are doing so 
in Old English words that poor Alan does not know, so we must have invented 
them.

My Tutor came from Bedford College (previous job).  She would have got on well 
with Alan.

Lisi

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Brian]

On Wed 14 Sep 2016 at 11:34:31 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:

> From: "Felix Miata" 
> 
> It does seem curious that the Debian installer would need knowledge of a 
> particular Windows version in order to provide a boot menu selection for it, 
> rather than simply having one that says "Windows", booting from whatever 
> non-native/NTFS filesystem it happens to find containing anything resembling 
> boot sector code.

This following quotes beginning with > are from Alan McConnell.

>  Yep.  I have been back to my Jessie in the meantime, and run 
> os-prober.
>  I didn't attempt to copy down on a piece of paper what it wrote; 
> trust me
>  that it was unenlightening garbage.

What is "unenlightening" to you may not be unenlightening to others;
trust me on that. "garbage" is *your* value judgement; nobody can
dispute it (except in the abstract) but it unlikely to be in that
category. But you did get an output; you have no idea how interesting
that is.

We Debian users yearn for the day when copy 'n paste and USB sticks are
invented. It will make things so much easier to move information (which
is severely lacking from you in this thread) about.

> > Should you be game to try installing Jessie again, you might try a network 
> > installation started via a Stretch installer. 
>  Jeez!  I can't even run X11 on my present install(*) let alone get on
>  line.

You claimed to be unable to install libreoffice when installing GNOME:

  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/04/msg00247.html

I decided to bite the bullet/go with the flow, and
install GNOME, the whole thing.  Which I did, and
it took just short of an hour.  For some reason,
Libreoffice was not installed.

This is completely impossible using 'apt-get install gnome', of course.
Not unless the Debian packaging system has a gaping hole in it. But it
happened to you (and nobody else). A mishapprension on your part?

Now it is X; X works fine for everyone; a mishapprension on your part? At
another time it was cups; a mishapprension on your part? Where to next?
How many more mishapprensions devoid of usable data are there going to
be?.

> (*)  Does anyone here know how to create a .Xauthority file?  That is one of 
> the
> things the Jessie installer failed to provide me with.

You've asked this five months ago:

  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/04/msg00278.html

Does anyone know how to create an .Xauthority with xauth?
I find the man page of xauth pretty impenetrable.

You are probably asking the wrong question.

-- 
Brian.

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Lisi Reisz]

On Wednesday 14 September 2016 16:34:31 Alan McConnell wrote:
> - Original Message -
> From: "Felix Miata" 
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 1:44:14 AM
> Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved
>
> Alan McConnell composed on 2016-09-13 20:50 (UTC-0400):
> > when my home Debian install is, for some reason, not functional.  I
> > apologize for Zimbra's inadequacies, failure to produce '>' as my home
> > mutt so nicely does.
> >
> > Just because one is unable to get whatever she is using to compose a
> > reply according to standards automatically doesn't excuse one who knows
> > better from conforming. Apologizing, particularly while continuing to not
> > conform, does not excuse. You are responsible for what you post, not your
> > posting agent.
>
>I just put in the '>'s in the four lines above by hand.  I hope you
> are not going to ask me to continue to do so!  Especially since I've
> already explained that Zimbra(which is set up to deal with E-mail) is such
> a cruddy mess.

It would be courteous.  It makes an enormous difference.

 ...
>
> > But maybe someone
> > can tell me why the installer can't look at the partitions and determine
> > that there is some kind of OS already installed?  Why does it have to
> > know about Windows 10 to behave sensibly?  "Curious minds . . . "
>
>  I have just checked and when I sent this it was indented eight
> spaces or so. As is this present paragraph.  Do you(plural) see that it is
> indented?  or does your(plural) mail reader simply delete the spaces?  I
> ask, because I don't like to be chewed out when I'm doing my (present)
> level best to conform with expectations.  Of course, it could be that
> Zimbra deletes the preliminary spaces before sending the mail out.  I could
> tell you tales about how Gmail mucks with what one has written before it
> sends the mail.
>
>
> It does seem curious that the Debian installer would need knowledge of a
> particular Windows version in order to provide a boot menu selection for
> it, rather than simply having one that says "Windows", booting from
> whatever non-native/NTFS filesystem it happens to find containing anything
> resembling boot sector code.
>  Yep.  I have been back to my Jessie in the meantime, and run
> os-prober. I didn't attempt to copy down on a piece of paper what it wrote;
> trust me that it was unenlightening garbage.
>
> > Should you be game to try installing Jessie again, you might try a
> > network installation started via a Stretch installer.
>
>  Jeez!  I can't even run X11 on my present install(*) let alone get
> on line.
>
> (*)  Does anyone here know how to create a .Xauthority file?  That is one
> of the things the Jessie installer failed to provide me with.

Why not try re-downloading your install media and starting again?  I take it 
you did check the integrity of your install media?  And did you edit your 
BIOS before starting?  Rhetorical question.  I know that you don't believe in 
answering questions or actually solving problems.  You have an unsatisfactory 
kludge and prefer to leave it so and just keep moaning.  Or I would ask 
EXACTLY what you have done and EXACTLY which model you have installed on.

Lots of people have got round the MS and Intel blocks and got Win10 and Jessie 
dual booting.  But is it a Skylake CPU?  Because that would add an added 
complication with the Jessie installer.

Either try to solve your problem or live with it and stop moaning.  
(Wiktionary suggests that in that meaning that is acceptable on both sides of 
the Atlantic).

Incidentally, I have just checked in my OED.  Printed version,  3rd Edition, 
published 1944, reprinted 1978.  Whinge has been in use in its present 
meaning since 1513 (they can cite a use in 1513), though it was only used 
that long ago in the north and in Scotland.  Whinger, the noun, cans only be 
cited in 1540.

But:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=etymology+and+usage+of+whinge&oq=etymology+and+usage+of+whinge&aqs=chrome..69i57.9456j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Note the first hit.  Merriam Webster says that it has been in use since the 
12th Century.  

It hasn't been introduced here, it has died out there.  It has been in 
continuous use since the 16th Century or earlier.

But I don't suppose you listened to what people in Egham were saying in 1967 
any more than you listen to us now.

Lisi

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Alan McConnell]

- Original Message -
From: "Felix Miata" 
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 1:44:14 AM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

Alan McConnell composed on 2016-09-13 20:50 (UTC-0400):

> when my home Debian install is, for some reason, not functional.  I apologize 
> for
> Zimbra's inadequacies, failure to produce '>' as my home mutt so nicely does.

> Just because one is unable to get whatever she is using to compose a reply 
> according to standards automatically doesn't excuse one who knows better from 
> conforming. Apologizing, particularly while continuing to not conform, does 
> not excuse. You are responsible for what you post, not your posting agent.
   I just put in the '>'s in the four lines above by hand.  I hope you are 
not
   going to ask me to continue to do so!  Especially since I've already 
explained
   that Zimbra(which is set up to deal with E-mail) is such a cruddy mess.


...
> But maybe someone
> can tell me why the installer can't look at the partitions and determine that 
> there
> is some kind of OS already installed?  Why does it have to know about Windows 
> 10 to
> behave sensibly?  "Curious minds . . . "
 I have just checked and when I sent this it was indented eight spaces 
or so.
 As is this present paragraph.  Do you(plural) see that it is indented? 
 or does
 your(plural) mail reader simply delete the spaces?  I ask, because I 
don't like
 to be chewed out when I'm doing my (present) level best to conform 
with 
 expectations.  Of course, it could be that Zimbra deletes the 
preliminary spaces
 before sending the mail out.  I could tell you tales about how Gmail 
mucks with
 what one has written before it sends the mail.


It does seem curious that the Debian installer would need knowledge of a 
particular Windows version in order to provide a boot menu selection for it, 
rather than simply having one that says "Windows", booting from whatever 
non-native/NTFS filesystem it happens to find containing anything resembling 
boot sector code.
 Yep.  I have been back to my Jessie in the meantime, and run os-prober.
 I didn't attempt to copy down on a piece of paper what it wrote; trust 
me
 that it was unenlightening garbage.

> Should you be game to try installing Jessie again, you might try a network 
> installation started via a Stretch installer. 
 Jeez!  I can't even run X11 on my present install(*) let alone get on
 line.

(*)  Does anyone here know how to create a .Xauthority file?  That is one of the
things the Jessie installer failed to provide me with.

Best wishes,

Alan

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Brian]

On Wed 14 Sep 2016 at 02:44:14 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

> Alan McConnell composed on 2016-09-13 20:50 (UTC-0400):
> ...
> >But maybe someone
> >can tell me why the installer can't look at the partitions and determine 
> >that there
> >is some kind of OS already installed?  Why does it have to know about 
> >Windows 10 to
> >behave sensibly?  "Curious minds . . . "
> 
> As explained by Brian on 2016-09-13 15:40 (UTC+0100), first came Jessie,
> then came Windows 10, and an apparent solution has since been provided for
> those who choose to install a Debian version younger than Windows 10.

I might have come to an invalid conclusion from reading the changelog
snippet quoted earlier and then went to lay far too much emphasis on
Jessie d-i preceding Windows 10. What is fixed is not whether an entry
for Windows 10 is displayed but the wording of the entry in the GRUB
menu.

Apologies for anything misleading.
 
> It does seem curious that the Debian installer would need knowledge of a
> particular Windows version in order to provide a boot menu selection for it,
> rather than simply having one that says "Windows", booting from whatever
> non-native/NTFS filesystem it happens to find containing anything resembling
> boot sector code.

Yes it does appear curious, especially as the implication in the
changelog (and a few reports I've seen elsewhere) is that a Windows 10
install can be discovered by os-prober but provides "Windows Recovery
Partition" as GRUB's menu entry.

> Should you be game to try installing Jessie again, you might try a network
> installation started via a Stretch installer. Possibly (I haven't tried, and
> not only do I have no interest in kicking either of my sleeping dog Windows
> 10s, I'm exclusively responsible for primary bootloader maintenance on all
> my computers, and rarely allow os-prober to run.) the os-prober shortcoming
> that troubled you might be avoided in such manner.

os-prober from stretch/unstable should install on Jessie with 'dpkg -i'
but I am much less confident it would fix a missing entry, even though
it should do no harm to try.

Another possibilty is

  https://wiki.debian.org/DualBoot/Windows10

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Lisi Reisz]

On Wednesday 14 September 2016 01:50:44 Alan McConnell wrote:

>Re Royal Holloway: boys were added in 1966, a year before my time
> there.  But there were always male faculty there, especially in math, which
> subject has, most unfortunately, suffered from a dearth of qualified women.
>  This is beginning to change: the AMS puts a lot of effort in supporting
> women and departments supporting women.

But:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_Scott
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippa_Fawcett

Quality, not quantity.

Lisi

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Lisi Reisz]

On Wednesday 14 September 2016 01:50:44 Alan McConnell wrote:
> More perhaps tomorrow.  I have tasks to perform before bed.  But maybe
> someone can tell me why the installer can't look at the partitions and
> determine that there is some kind of OS already installed?  Why does it
> have to know about Windows 10 to behave sensibly?  "Curious minds . . . "

It can.  But MS put a lot of effort into making it difficult to dual boot with 
Windows 10, and the installer you are using was, as you have been told, 
written before Windows 10 was released.  The first installer to be written 
AFTER Windows 10 can apparently handle it well. I haven't tried.

Lisi

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Felix Miata]

Alan McConnell composed on 2016-09-13 20:50 (UTC-0400):


Lisi Reisz composed:



Gene Heskett wrote:



Now I am going to push back Alan.



If you are going to come in here and berate folks about this and that,
the first thing you need to do is to train your email agent



(wth is "X-Mailer: Zimbra 7.2.6_GA_2926 (ZimbraWebClient - GC46
(Win)/7.2.6_GA_2926)" never heard of it)

...

https://www.itg.ias.edu/content/logging-zimbra-web-client

...

Interesting that the IAS uses Zimbra.  I've been after Paul Heller for years
to get rid of Zimbra, a huge clunky webmail interface, and I only use it when
when my home Debian install is, for some reason, not functional.  I apologize 
for
Zimbra's inadequacies, failure to produce '>' as my home mutt so nicely does.


Just because one is unable to get whatever she is using to compose a reply 
according to standards automatically doesn't excuse one who knows better from 
conforming. Apologizing, particularly while continuing to not conform, does 
not excuse. You are responsible for what you post, not your posting agent.


...

But maybe someone
can tell me why the installer can't look at the partitions and determine that 
there
is some kind of OS already installed?  Why does it have to know about Windows 
10 to
behave sensibly?  "Curious minds . . . "


As explained by Brian on 2016-09-13 15:40 (UTC+0100), first came Jessie, then 
came Windows 10, and an apparent solution has since been provided for those 
who choose to install a Debian version younger than Windows 10.


It does seem curious that the Debian installer would need knowledge of a 
particular Windows version in order to provide a boot menu selection for it, 
rather than simply having one that says "Windows", booting from whatever 
non-native/NTFS filesystem it happens to find containing anything resembling 
boot sector code.


Should you be game to try installing Jessie again, you might try a network 
installation started via a Stretch installer. Possibly (I haven't tried, and 
not only do I have no interest in kicking either of my sleeping dog Windows 
10s, I'm exclusively responsible for primary bootloader maintenance on all my 
computers, and rarely allow os-prober to run.) the os-prober shortcoming that 
troubled you might be avoided in such manner.

--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Alan McConnell]

- Original Message -
From: "Lisi Reisz" 
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 3:58:01 PM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

On Tuesday 13 September 2016 18:24:07 Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday 13 September 2016 08:57:19 Alan McConnell wrote:
> > Warning:  This E-mail is for the most part in the nature of a pushback
> > against various insinuations that have been made.
>
> Now I am going to push back Alan.
>
> If you are going to come in here and berate folks about this and that,
> the first thing you need to do is to train your email agent
>
> (wth is "X-Mailer: Zimbra 7.2.6_GA_2926 (ZimbraWebClient - GC46
> (Win)/7.2.6_GA_2926)" never heard of it)

https://www.itg.ias.edu/content/logging-zimbra-web-client
   Interesting that the IAS uses Zimbra.  I've been after Paul Heller for 
years
   to get rid of Zimbra, a huge clunky webmail interface, and I only use it 
when
   when my home Debian install is, for some reason, not functional.  I 
apologize for
   Zimbra's inadequacies, failure to produce '>' as my home mutt so nicely 
does.

It isn't an email client, and obviously can't do threading and quoting and 
things.  Alan clearly doesn't understand them, just as he doesn't understand 
what the word "solved" means.  Hint for Alan:  it doesn't mean the same as 
kludged.
   Sorry, I do know what 'solved' means, and I do say that _my_ problem is
   solved.  But my solution, as I've said over and over again, is not one 
that
   I can give to people who are running a dual boot system at my urging.



> to properly quote, and honor existing quotes, if for no other reason than
> to help us identify who wrote what.  That is what all those leading >
> and >> > are all about. It is also part of the email protocol that has
> existed since the late 80's of the last century.
   Absolutely!  I couldn't agree more.  When I get Jessie running properly 
on
   my new Dell I'll have my emacs put in quotes as they should be.  But I 
don't
   know how to do it on Zimbra, which, I'll repeat, is a foul piece of SW.  
For
   now I'm indenting my replies.  I hope all your mail readers respect my
   indentations; I have a suspicion that some of them don't.

   Re Royal Holloway: boys were added in 1966, a year before my time there. 
 But
   there were always male faculty there, especially in math, which subject 
has,
   most unfortunately, suffered from a dearth of qualified women.  This is 
beginning
   to change: the AMS puts a lot of effort in supporting women and 
departments
   supporting women.

   More perhaps tomorrow.  I have tasks to perform before bed.  But maybe 
someone
   can tell me why the installer can't look at the partitions and determine 
that there
   is some kind of OS already installed?  Why does it have to know about 
Windows 10 to
   behave sensibly?  "Curious minds . . . "

Best wishes,

Alan

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[David Wright]

On Tue 13 Sep 2016 at 21:02:01 (+0100), Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Tuesday 13 September 2016 20:30:20 Brian wrote:
> > > A final question:  I've used Wiktionary to learn that 'whinging' is the
> > > English for what we Murricans call 'whining'.  Is it used a lot nowadays?
> > >  I don't recall ever having heard it when I taught at Royal Holloway
> > > College back in 1967-68.
> >
> > Language changes. One hopes modes of thinking on -user will adapt too.
> 
> I had to check whether there were any (other) men at Royal Holloway (a 
> women's 
> college) in 1967   (There were - just.)

I don't think either of the constituents of RubberNeck disallowed
men on the *staff*. (I also didn't realise they dropped the Neck out
of their name, although Royal Holloway and Bedford New College remains
their legal name.)

Cheers,
David.

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Lisi Reisz]

On Tuesday 13 September 2016 18:24:07 Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday 13 September 2016 08:57:19 Alan McConnell wrote:
> > Warning:  This E-mail is for the most part in the nature of a pushback
> > against various insinuations that have been made.
>
> Now I am going to push back Alan.
>
> If you are going to come in here and berate folks about this and that,
> the first thing you need to do is to train your email agent
>
> (wth is "X-Mailer: Zimbra 7.2.6_GA_2926 (ZimbraWebClient - GC46
> (Win)/7.2.6_GA_2926)" never heard of it)

https://www.itg.ias.edu/content/logging-zimbra-web-client

It isn't an email client, and obviously can't do threading and quoting and 
things.  Alan clearly doesn't understand them, just as he doesn't understand 
what the word "solved" means.  Hint for Alan:  it doesn't mean the same as 
kludged.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kludged
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kludge#English  (See meaning 3)

Lisi

> to properly quote, and honor existing quotes, if for no other reason than
> to help us identify who wrote what.  That is what all those leading >
> and >> > are all about. It is also part of the email protocol that has
> existed since the late 80's of the last century.
>
> > - Original Message -
>
> Which I scrubbed because there are NO quotes in it other than what my
> email agent added.  Why they were totally removed I've no clue, but it
> marks your email agent as being seriously mis-configured, or was written
> by an idiot.
>
> Please fix it to obey 30 year old email quoting standards.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Lisi Reisz]

On Tuesday 13 September 2016 20:30:20 Brian wrote:
> > A final question:  I've used Wiktionary to learn that 'whinging' is the
> > English for what we Murricans call 'whining'.  Is it used a lot nowadays?
> >  I don't recall ever having heard it when I taught at Royal Holloway
> > College back in 1967-68.
>
> Language changes. One hopes modes of thinking on -user will adapt too.

I had to check whether there were any (other) men at Royal Holloway (a women's 
college) in 1967   (There were - just.)

Lisi

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[David Wright]

On Mon 12 Sep 2016 at 14:14:53 (-0400), Alan McConnell wrote:
> - Original Message -
> From: "Felix Miata" 
> Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2016 10:14:26 PM
> Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved
> 
> David Wright composed on 2016-09-11 21:44 (UTC-0500):
> ...
> >> Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved
> ...
> How is it beneficial to list anyone here or searching list archives to 
> continue a thread by chastising an OP for being imperfect more than 12 hours 
> after OP added string "solved" to the subject and thanked people who provided 
> useful help?
> Hurrah for Felix!  He got it.

Glad you found it funny.
> 
> Now I have a follow-on question:  I'd like to be able, from Jessie, to copy 
> files to and from my
> Windoze system.  I haven't really tried simply cd-ing to e.g. /dev/sda1, 
> which is the partition
> containing my Windoze stuff.  Is that what you dual OS users do?  is there 
> some subtle   mount
> command  that you use?   I shall be most grateful for any instructions, or 
> even suggestions.

I put lines in /etc/fstab that look like:

UUID=8CA476AAA4769684 /media/olaf01 ntfsro,utf8
UUID=349A79B99A797866 /media/olaf02 ntfsro,utf8

where those UUIDs come from dire /dev/disk/by-uuid/* or
/run/udev/data/b* but bear in mind that I only transfer file in one
direction. I don't mess with NTFS disks: if I want to move files,
I transfer them via a VFAT stick in the USB socket.
That way, if and when they get screwed up, the blame lies
firmly with M$.

(The mount points follow my convention of the disk's nickname
plus two digits for the partition numbers.)

For anyone following this thread, do they recognise those UUIDs?
The reason I ask is that I have two XP systems both with those
numbers, but I have no idea if the university installs new PC
OSes by cloning disks, or whether the UUIDs carry information
like 30E002E0454647 now does. (Until today, google didn't find
them; tomorrow it might.)

Cheers,
David.

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Brian]

On Tue 13 Sep 2016 at 13:01:58 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:

> You were asked for some information. You declined to provide it. As a
> route to solving a technical problem your response leaves a lot to be
> desired.
>  Did you read why I declined?  I repeat my reason for your benefit:

I imagine your question is rhetorical, so it has no real edge to it and
does not require me to give an impression of an affronted user. The
repetition is unnecessary as it simply confirms you went into "sod this
for a game of soldiers" mode and started digging a deeper hole for
yourself.

>  getting information from my only partially installed Jessie means
>  shutting down my Windoze OS(I'm writing this from my Windows OS),
>  turning on my Jessie, and writing a bunch of detailed information on
>  a piece of paper, shutting down Jessie and returning to Windoze and
>  transcribing what my paper said to an E-mail.  That process requires
>  a lot of error-prone steps, and you or someone else might have called
>  for an iteration, which would have driven me up the wall.
> 
> The output of interest is from os-prober. You know what it, unless you
> are so uninterested in seeking a solution you haven't even run it or are
> keeping what it says to yourself.
>  I ran os-prober.  I can't here reproduce what it gave me, but it
>  didn't reveal the OS that came with the just purchased machine.

Even saying that would have given us a hook to hang a response on. Not
giving a precis alongside your other output was a bad move because it
altered the focus. Verbatim output is always best but a summary is
better than nothing.

   Verbatim output   =10/10
   Verbatim output+whine =7/10 (Diverts responses away from output)
   Summary   =6/10 (There is some value in it)
   Summary+whine =3/10 (Diverts responses away from output)
   Whine only=0/10

>  Which leads me to my often-stated conclusion:  since the install
>  program stated "No other OS can be found on this machine", the
>  installer is broken.

Broken? Mmm. Windows 10 was released on 29th July 2015. The Jessie
installer was released on 25th April 2015; there are indeed updates to
it but only for important features like security.

"Ah", you will say, what about d-i's DivineTheFuture package? Well, it
failed abysmally, although some Debian developers made a fortune from
betting on the Grand National using its predictions. (Warning: Fantasy
module switched on full).

> You may be interested to know that the Debian Fairy has waved her magic
> wand and made your machine dual bootable. From os-prober's changelog on
> unstable:
>  Good grief, Brian.  What I have is Jessie.  But it is good to
>  know that attention is being paid to this issue, and the installer
>  for stretch may be an improvement.

You've completely missed the point. Try saying to yourself

  I wish my machine had a file like unstable's or testing's

and then figure out how it could have such a file. (The os-prober output
would tell you whether what you did worked). This is the central section
in this mail. If you reply to anything you should reply to this.

> > Finally:  I have taken a resolution not to respond to further chastisement 
> > or smarm.
> > Please help me to keep it!
> 
> I don't do smarm. If you perceived what I wrote to be that, it reveals a
> weakness in my irony, sarcasm and mild insults modules.
>I did perceive it.  Advice: delete your ISMI module and pay
>  more attention to your courteous and helpful module.  Which I'm sure
>  exists.

It doesn't seem possible. Every time I make an attempt I hear a melody
and a voice singing "Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer."

> A final question:  I've used Wiktionary to learn that 'whinging' is the 
> English
> for what we Murricans call 'whining'.  Is it used a lot nowadays?  I don't 
> recall
> ever having heard it when I taught at Royal Holloway College back in 1967-68.

Language changes. One hopes modes of thinking on -user will adapt too.

-- 
Brian.

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[David Wright]

On Sun 11 Sep 2016 at 23:14:26 (-0400), Felix Miata wrote:
> David Wright composed on 2016-09-11 21:44 (UTC-0500):
> ...
> >>Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved
> ...
> How is it beneficial to list anyone here or searching list archives
> to continue a thread by chastising an OP for being imperfect more
> than 12 hours after OP added string "solved" to the subject and
> thanked people who provided useful help?

What does "12 hours" have to do with the price of fish?

Ironic to say that about a post that itself contains:
 "Re your last post quoted above, what's the problem with running jessie
  and reporting the information you were asked for? I assume that you
  installed jessie so that you could run it occasionally.
  I know some people on this list treat it like the telephone ("I'm
  going to bed now, and will try it in the morning" kind of thing) but
  the list will wait for the next occasion that you boot up your jessie.
  ^^
  In fact, it often pays *not* to give quick responses because it gives
  you time to think on the problem, and you *are* the best-placed
  person to come up with a solution (as you have done, in a way)."

The reasons I posted:

AMcC drew attention to the title of his post: "How to get Jessie to
run at boot time -- Problem solved" where it's not clear that the
problem being solved is what's in the title, nor that the "solution"
is anything more that a workaround that does something for him.

His annoyance at being asked to provide more information so that
people trying to help can have a decent crack of the whip.

His implication that people should only ask those questions if
they move in the company of experts in Debian or grub.

So that summary I wrote was to explain why I was still mystified as to
the nature of his problem and its "solution", and how the "L or M"
business might help with matters. Knowing what is on the screen when
he presses F12 might help; there again, it might not. On this Dell,
F12 gives you a chance to boot from HardDrive/CD/USB without having
to enter the CMOS and change the default priorities. It has no
choice of which sector is read on the device selected. Perhaps
Dells have changed. Maybe BIOS/UEFI has something to do without it.

So I wrote:

"I don't know what you see when you press F12, and I don't understand
what the "L or M" business is in times past."
which invites a reply without being a direct question (something AMcC
seems to take exception to, unless coming from "experts"; not me then).

I notice that AMcC has now written that his procedure is cumbersome
(though I still don't know what it is). In the next sentence, he
continues to blame the installer, and hopes it gets fixed.

Cheers,
David.

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 13 September 2016 08:57:19 Alan McConnell wrote:

> Warning:  This E-mail is for the most part in the nature of a pushback
> against various insinuations that have been made.
>
Now I am going to push back Alan.

If you are going to come in here and berate folks about this and that, 
the first thing you need to do is to train your email agent

(wth is "X-Mailer: Zimbra 7.2.6_GA_2926 (ZimbraWebClient - GC46 
(Win)/7.2.6_GA_2926)" never heard of it)

to properly quote, and honor existing quotes, if for no other reason than 
to help us identify who wrote what.  That is what all those leading > 
and >> > are all about. It is also part of the email protocol that has 
existed since the late 80's of the last century.

> - Original Message -
Which I scrubbed because there are NO quotes in it other than what my 
email agent added.  Why they were totally removed I've no clue, but it 
marks your email agent as being seriously mis-configured, or was written 
by an idiot.

Please fix it to obey 30 year old email quoting standards.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Lisi Reisz]

On Tuesday 13 September 2016 18:01:58 Alan McConnell wrote:
> > Finally:  I have taken a resolution not to respond to further
> > chastisement or smarm. Please help me to keep it!

What a pity you didn't!  What happened to your self control??

Lisi

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Alan McConnell]

- Original Message -
From: "Brian" 
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 9:40:11 AM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

On Tue 13 Sep 2016 at 08:57:19 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:

> Warning:  This E-mail is for the most part in the nature of a pushback against
> various insinuations that have been made.  

Warning duly noted; most of this mail is snipped so we can concentrate
on the technical aspects of your issue.
 Excellent.


You were asked for some information. You declined to provide it. As a
route to solving a technical problem your response leaves a lot to be
desired.
 Did you read why I declined?  I repeat my reason for your benefit:
 getting information from my only partially installed Jessie means
 shutting down my Windoze OS(I'm writing this from my Windows OS),
 turning on my Jessie, and writing a bunch of detailed information on
 a piece of paper, shutting down Jessie and returning to Windoze and
 transcribing what my paper said to an E-mail.  That process requires
 a lot of error-prone steps, and you or someone else might have called
 for an iteration, which would have driven me up the wall.

The output of interest is from os-prober. You know what it, unless you
are so uninterested in seeking a solution you haven't even run it or are
keeping what it says to yourself.
 I ran os-prober.  I can't here reproduce what it gave me, but it
 didn't reveal the OS that came with the just purchased machine.
 Which leads me to my often-stated conclusion:  since the install
 program stated "No other OS can be found on this machine", the
 installer is broken.

You may be interested to know that the Debian Fairy has waved her magic
wand and made your machine dual bootable. From os-prober's changelog on
unstable:
 Good grief, Brian.  What I have is Jessie.  But it is good to
 know that attention is being paid to this issue, and the installer
 for stretch may be an improvement.

> Finally:  I have taken a resolution not to respond to further chastisement or 
> smarm.
> Please help me to keep it!

I don't do smarm. If you perceived what I wrote to be that, it reveals a
weakness in my irony, sarcasm and mild insults modules.
   I did perceive it.  Advice: delete your ISMI module and pay
 more attention to your courteous and helpful module.  Which I'm sure
 exists.

A final question:  I've used Wiktionary to learn that 'whinging' is the English
for what we Murricans call 'whining'.  Is it used a lot nowadays?  I don't 
recall
ever having heard it when I taught at Royal Holloway College back in 1967-68.

Alan

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Brian]

On Tue 13 Sep 2016 at 08:57:19 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:

> Warning:  This E-mail is for the most part in the nature of a pushback against
> various insinuations that have been made.  

Warning duly noted; most of this mail is snipped so we can concentrate
on the technical aspects of your issue.

[...Snippety-snip...]

> Again, for the third time:  I hope that an new release of the Debian 
> installation SW
> will be able to detect when another OS is already on the system, and that a 
> proper and
> simple procedure will be put in place for e.g. newbies to Linux or to 
> dual-bootable
> systems to be able to choose between the systems immediately after the 
> machine self-test.

You were asked for some information. You declined to provide it. As a
route to solving a technical problem your response leaves a lot to be
desired.

The output of interest is from os-prober. You know what it, unless you
are so uninterested in seeking a solution you haven't even run it or are
keeping what it says to yourself.

If you had clue and had provided a decent, useful response you would
then have been directed to read /usr/lib/os-probes/mounted/20microsoft.
The light would then have dawned (perhaps). All the time you would be
learning and helping yourself. But no - whinging wins out. Far easier
for you to that than think for yourself.

You may be interested to know that the Debian Fairy has waved her magic
wand and made your machine dual bootable. From os-prober's changelog on
unstable:

  * Add support for Windows 10 (otherwise reported as Windows Recovery
Environment). Thanks, Philipp Wolfer! (Closes: #801278).

 -- Cyril Brulebois   Thu, 08 Oct 2015 14:26:16 +0200

With this information your every desire can be realised. Your problem
now has a proper solution. Surely what you can do to have a dual boot
doesn't need spelling out?

> Finally:  I have taken a resolution not to respond to further chastisement or 
> smarm.
> Please help me to keep it!

I don't do smarm. If you perceived what I wrote to be that, it reveals a
weakness in my irony, sarcasm and mild insults modules.

-- 
Brian.

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Alan McConnell]

Warning:  This E-mail is for the most part in the nature of a pushback against
various insinuations that have been made.  

- Original Message -
From: "Lisi Reisz" 
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2016 5:38:56 PM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

On Monday 12 September 2016 19:14:53 Alan McConnell wrote:
> Maybe I should apologize for "hijacking a thread"?

Yes, you should.  It has left the person whose thread you have hijacked high 
and dry.  It is most definitely "not done" to hijack threads.  By those who 
care about etiquette and other people, that is.
  You have got to be kidding!  I have stolen(the meaning of "hijacking")
  nothing.  Nothing prevents you or anyone else from ignoring what I write 
or
  have written and concentrating on the other messages in this thread.

  You talk about etiquette.  I have, over the past twenty years, set up
  at least three E-lists; one about Linux(lwob), one about music(vlaviworld)
  and the third about politics(waifllc, using Meetup).  I never prescribed
  any form of behavior for my members, and I'm surprised that you take it on
  yourself to do so for debian-users.

  Besides: since I added "Problem solved" to the Subject line, I am now 
posting
  under a different thread.  However, you or anyone else are free to use it 
for
  further lessons in etiquette, or anything else you choose.
  

Brian was offering you a good technical solution that would actually have 
solved your problem, instead of a "cobble", which you say that Debian should 
fix.
   He was doing no such thing.  He asked a bunch of questions like "What 
was the
   version of Windoze I was using?" ! ? ! He offered no solution at all 
that improved
   on what I use.  I'll get to Brian more in a moment.

Even God is said only to help those who help themselves.
   I _have_ helped myself!  And I am fortunate that I have been able to 
draw the
   attention of a real expert, Felix Miata, who combines his expertize with 
an
   ability to read, and a reluctance to preach.  Would that you and Brian 
would
   emulate him.

On to Brian!  You, Brian, ask: was anyone impolite?  I was accused of being 
impolite and
I reject the accusation.  I will, however, remark that your series of 
"deconstructions"
verge on the smarmy.  Do you claim that they were useful, or even relevant?

And what am I, or anyone, to think of your assertions about "Debian Central" or 
"Abarrane"?
Is it your claim that such comments are useful, or relevant, or even polite?

Again, for the third time:  I hope that an new release of the Debian 
installation SW
will be able to detect when another OS is already on the system, and that a 
proper and
simple procedure will be put in place for e.g. newbies to Linux or to 
dual-bootable
systems to be able to choose between the systems immediately after the machine 
self-test.

Finally:  I have taken a resolution not to respond to further chastisement or 
smarm.
Please help me to keep it!

Best wishes, even to Lisi and Brian!

Alan

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Lisi Reisz]

On Monday 12 September 2016 19:14:53 Alan McConnell wrote:
> Maybe I should apologize for "hijacking a thread"?

Yes, you should.  It has left the person whose thread you have hijacked high 
and dry.  It is most definitely "not done" to hijack threads.  By those who 
care about etiquette and other people, that is.

Brian was offering you a good technical solution that would actually have 
solved your problem, instead of a "cobble", which you say that Debian should 
fix.

Even God is said only to help those who help themselves.

Lisi.

PS I have been trying to help mudongliang, unsuccessfully.  But thereby hangs 
another thread.  Please someone else, his question has still not been 
answered.  Are all attempts to answer it being spam-checked out of 
existence??

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Brian]

On Mon 12 Sep 2016 at 14:14:53 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:

> From: "Felix Miata" 
> ...
> How is it beneficial to list anyone here or searching list archives to 
> continue a thread by chastising an OP for being imperfect more than 12 hours 
> after OP added string "solved" to the subject and thanked people who provided 
> useful help?
> Hurrah for Felix!  He got it.

You are both on the same page, then. Keep together and ward off the
people who ask questions or request information. It will give you a
cosier world.
 
>   I don't know what I have to apologize for.  Did I say anything 
> impolite?  I'm not
>   conscious of having done so.  Maybe I should apologize for
>   "hijacking a thread"?

Was anyone at all impolite?

>   As Felix and maybe a few others have noticed, I can now log on to 
> either my Windoze
>   or to Jessie, which is what I originally inquired about.  I persist 
> in thinking 
>   that the procedure I am using is cumbersome, and I hope

You are quite correct - the procedure is cumbersome. In fact, it is
naff. But you have it as a "solution" and are happy with it and do not
want to alter it. Who are we to argue and try to seek a technical
solution?

>   that a new release of installation SW will a) be sure to detect 
> another OS during
>   the installation, and b) will ensure that grub puts a good 
> notice/question up on a
>   beginning screen for people to click on(or perhaps use the arrow 
> keys) to indicate
>   which OS they wish to boot.

We are working on it. Debian Central has realised that there are holes
in its installation for some users with names beginning with "Alan". A
fix will be sent out when we have dealt with Abarrane.

Meanwhile, follow the advice on -user. You seem to have ignored most of
it.
>   To conclude this topic:  the folks who think I'm rude or 
> uncooperative or both clearly
>   have the option to ignore in future anything/everything that I 
> write.  I hope they
>   will take advantage of this option.
> 
> Now I have a follow-on question:  I'd like to be able, from Jessie, to copy 
> files to and from my
> Windoze system.  I haven't really tried simply cd-ing to e.g. /dev/sda1, 
> which is the partition
> containing my Windoze stuff.  Is that what you dual OS users do?  is there 
> some subtle   mount
> command  that you use?   I shall be most grateful for any instructions, or 
> even suggestions.

Follow-on questions go in different threads. It keeps things tidy and
manageable. Please start a new one on this topic.

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Alan McConnell]

- Original Message -
From: "Felix Miata" 
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2016 10:14:26 PM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

David Wright composed on 2016-09-11 21:44 (UTC-0500):
...
>> Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved
...
How is it beneficial to list anyone here or searching list archives to 
continue a thread by chastising an OP for being imperfect more than 12 hours 
after OP added string "solved" to the subject and thanked people who provided 
useful help?
Hurrah for Felix!  He got it.

  I don't know what I have to apologize for.  Did I say anything 
impolite?  I'm not
  conscious of having done so.  Maybe I should apologize for "hijacking 
a thread"?

  As Felix and maybe a few others have noticed, I can now log on to 
either my Windoze
  or to Jessie, which is what I originally inquired about.  I persist 
in thinking 
  that the procedure I am using is cumbersome, and I hope
  that a new release of installation SW will a) be sure to detect 
another OS during
  the installation, and b) will ensure that grub puts a good 
notice/question up on a
  beginning screen for people to click on(or perhaps use the arrow 
keys) to indicate
  which OS they wish to boot.

  To conclude this topic:  the folks who think I'm rude or 
uncooperative or both clearly
  have the option to ignore in future anything/everything that I write. 
 I hope they
  will take advantage of this option.

Now I have a follow-on question:  I'd like to be able, from Jessie, to copy 
files to and from my
Windoze system.  I haven't really tried simply cd-ing to e.g. /dev/sda1, which 
is the partition
containing my Windoze stuff.  Is that what you dual OS users do?  is there some 
subtle   mount
command  that you use?   I shall be most grateful for any instructions, or even 
suggestions.

Best wishes to all,

Alan McConnell

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Lisi Reisz]

On Sunday 11 September 2016 20:51:50 Brian wrote:
> On Sun 11 Sep 2016 at 15:17:00 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:
> > On Sun 11 Sep 2016 at 11:13:45 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:
> > > Addendum:  during my Jessie install, the install program commented at
> > > one point: "There doesn't seem to be any other OS on your system". 
> > > Jeez!!  I hope some maintainer reads this complaint and Debian  works
> > > hard to make sure that the
> >
> > What is the exact name and version of this OS which is not found?
> >  Windows 10.  If there is a more exact name, I don't know
> > it.
>
> Deconstruction of this statement follows:
>
>  I do not know. I am unable to extract information from any OS. But I am
>  really good at moaning about them. You will get no help from me, don't
>  bother me.
>
> > > operation of installing a second OS(Linux) on a Windoze box is as easy
> > > and error-proof as it is possible to make it.
> >
> > 1. As a user do
> >
> >  dpkg -l | grep grub
> >
> >Please post the output of this command.
> >
> > 2. Suppose there are four packages listed. As root do
> >
> >  apt-get --reinstall install 
> >
> >for each package
> >
> > is in the second column of the 'dpkg -l' output.
> >
> >So, for example
> >
> >  apt-get --reinstall install grub-common
> >  apt-get --reinstall install grub-pc
> >  apt-get --reinstall install grub-pc-bin
> >  apt-get --reinstall install grub2-common
> >
> >is what I would do on my machine. For the grub-pc reinstall please
> > post the lines which begin "Found ." in the output.
> >
> > 3. As root run the command
> >
> >  os-prober
> >
> >and post its output.
> >
> >  Why?  why all this?  What good will it do? to anyone?  To do
> > this I'd have to get out of this URL(mail.his.com), shut down my Windoze,
> > reboot to Jessie, copy the output you are requesting to a piece of paper,
> > and then get back here.(*)
>
> Deconstruction of this statement follows:
>
>   You are asking questions. Questions are awkward - you have to give
>   answers; I do not want to participate in giving answers. Just take
>   some notice of me and give me what I want without all this palaver.
>
> >  May I ask: are you the Debian installation maintainer?  if you
> > are, I'd be happy to work with you.
>
> Having chosen to post to debian-user you cannot even work with the
> process here. What chance would there be of a working relationship if
> you thought you were talking to the Debian Leader.
>
> > (*)  Many years ago, when I ran a dual boot machine of Linux and MS-DOS,
> > I used to be able to mount the MS-DOS partition from my Linux system, and
> > copy file to and from it. I'm going to try that, when next I (re)boot
> > into Jessie.
>
> Deconstruction of this statement follows:
>
>   Redirection. I've managed to avoid answering anything but I can still
>   go down fighting and introduce something irrelevant. Do I have to stew
>   in my own juice?

And to achieve all this rudeness he hijacked mudongliang's thread and as a 
result mudongliang has still had no answers.  :-(  But I'm forgetting.  
Nothing and no-one else matters compared with Alan. :-(

I'm off to try and answer mudongliang, but I fear that I can't because I don't 
think I know the answer.  But at least it should revive his thread.

Lisi

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Brian]

On Sun 11 Sep 2016 at 23:14:26 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

> David Wright composed on 2016-09-11 21:44 (UTC-0500):
> ...
> >>Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved
> ...
> How is it beneficial to list anyone here or searching list archives to
> continue a thread by chastising an OP for being imperfect more than 12 hours
> after OP added string "solved" to the subject and thanked people who
> provided useful help?
> 
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/09/msg00398.html

The "solution" is very suboptimal in the context of Debian and GRUB and
does not help anyone having the same problem, particularily if a bug is
involved.

(I do not know where you get the 12 hours from. bendel.debian.org sent
the mail to me at 15:14:19 + (UTC). My reply arrived at bendel by
18:32:58 + (UTC) on the same day. I also hadn't appreciated that
this list had a time limit set on replies sent to it).

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Felix Miata]

David Wright composed on 2016-09-11 21:44 (UTC-0500):
...

Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

...
How is it beneficial to list anyone here or searching list archives to 
continue a thread by chastising an OP for being imperfect more than 12 hours 
after OP added string "solved" to the subject and thanked people who provided 
useful help?


https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/09/msg00398.html
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Brian]

On Sun 11 Sep 2016 at 15:17:00 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:

> On Sun 11 Sep 2016 at 11:13:45 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:
> 
> > Addendum:  during my Jessie install, the install program commented at one 
> > point:
> > "There doesn't seem to be any other OS on your system".  Jeez!!  I hope some
> > maintainer reads this complaint and Debian  works hard to make sure that the
> 
> What is the exact name and version of this OS which is not found?
>  Windows 10.  If there is a more exact name, I don't know it.

Deconstruction of this statement follows:

 I do not know. I am unable to extract information from any OS. But I am
 really good at moaning about them. You will get no help from me, don't
 bother me.

> > operation of installing a second OS(Linux) on a Windoze box is as easy and
> > error-proof as it is possible to make it.
> 
> 1. As a user do
> 
>  dpkg -l | grep grub
> 
>Please post the output of this command.
> 
> 2. Suppose there are four packages listed. As root do
> 
>  apt-get --reinstall install 
> 
>for each package
> 
> is in the second column of the 'dpkg -l' output.
> 
>So, for example
> 
>  apt-get --reinstall install grub-common
>  apt-get --reinstall install grub-pc
>  apt-get --reinstall install grub-pc-bin
>  apt-get --reinstall install grub2-common
> 
>is what I would do on my machine. For the grub-pc reinstall please post
>the lines which begin "Found ." in the output.
> 
> 3. As root run the command
> 
>  os-prober
> 
>and post its output.
> 
>  Why?  why all this?  What good will it do? to anyone?  To do this 
> I'd have
>  to get out of this URL(mail.his.com), shut down my Windoze, reboot 
> to Jessie,
>  copy the output you are requesting to a piece of paper, and then get 
> back here.(*)

Deconstruction of this statement follows:

  You are asking questions. Questions are awkward - you have to give
  answers; I do not want to participate in giving answers. Just take
  some notice of me and give me what I want without all this palaver.

>  May I ask: are you the Debian installation maintainer?  if you are, 
> I'd be
>  happy to work with you.

Having chosen to post to debian-user you cannot even work with the
process here. What chance would there be of a working relationship if
you thought you were talking to the Debian Leader.

> (*)  Many years ago, when I ran a dual boot machine of Linux and MS-DOS, I 
> used to be
> able to mount the MS-DOS partition from my Linux system, and copy file to and 
> from it.
> I'm going to try that, when next I (re)boot into Jessie.

Deconstruction of this statement follows:

  Redirection. I've managed to avoid answering anything but I can still
  go down fighting and introduce something irrelevant. Do I have to stew
  in my own juice?

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Alan McConnell]

- Original Message -
From: "Brian" 
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2016 1:32:54 PM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

On Sun 11 Sep 2016 at 11:13:45 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:

> Addendum:  during my Jessie install, the install program commented at one 
> point:
> "There doesn't seem to be any other OS on your system".  Jeez!!  I hope some
> maintainer reads this complaint and Debian  works hard to make sure that the

What is the exact name and version of this OS which is not found?
 Windows 10.  If there is a more exact name, I don't know it.

> operation of installing a second OS(Linux) on a Windoze box is as easy and
> error-proof as it is possible to make it.

1. As a user do

 dpkg -l | grep grub

   Please post the output of this command.

2. Suppose there are four packages listed. As root do

 apt-get --reinstall install 

   for each package

is in the second column of the 'dpkg -l' output.

   So, for example

 apt-get --reinstall install grub-common
 apt-get --reinstall install grub-pc
 apt-get --reinstall install grub-pc-bin
 apt-get --reinstall install grub2-common

   is what I would do on my machine. For the grub-pc reinstall please post
   the lines which begin "Found ." in the output.

3. As root run the command

 os-prober

   and post its output.

 Why?  why all this?  What good will it do? to anyone?  To do this I'd 
have
 to get out of this URL(mail.his.com), shut down my Windoze, reboot to 
Jessie,
 copy the output you are requesting to a piece of paper, and then get 
back here.(*)

 May I ask: are you the Debian installation maintainer?  if you are, 
I'd be
 happy to work with you.

(*)  Many years ago, when I ran a dual boot machine of Linux and MS-DOS, I used 
to be
able to mount the MS-DOS partition from my Linux system, and copy file to and 
from it.
I'm going to try that, when next I (re)boot into Jessie.

Best wishes,

Alan

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Brian]

On Sun 11 Sep 2016 at 11:13:45 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:

> Addendum:  during my Jessie install, the install program commented at one 
> point:
> "There doesn't seem to be any other OS on your system".  Jeez!!  I hope some
> maintainer reads this complaint and Debian  works hard to make sure that the

What is the exact name and version of this OS which is not found?

> operation of installing a second OS(Linux) on a Windoze box is as easy and
> error-proof as it is possible to make it.

1. As a user do

 dpkg -l | grep grub

   Please post the output of this command.

2. Suppose there are four packages listed. As root do

 apt-get --reinstall install 

   for each package

is in the second column of the 'dpkg -l' output.

   So, for example

 apt-get --reinstall install grub-common
 apt-get --reinstall install grub-pc
 apt-get --reinstall install grub-pc-bin
 apt-get --reinstall install grub2-common

   is what I would do on my machine. For the grub-pc reinstall please post
   the lines which begin "Found ." in the output.

3. As root run the command

 os-prober

   and post its output.

-- 
Brian.

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Alan McConnell]

- Original Message -
From: "Felix Miata" 
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2016 11:33:46 PM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time

Alan McConnell composed on 2016-09-10 17:45 (UTC-0400):

> Good grief.  I just wrote that I am now logged in to a working jessie.
> So I can run any kind of apt-get, aptitude, etc.

> So I repeat:  apt-cache search grub gives me lots of grub files to install.
> Do I want to install a different grub?

> Possibly, though not likely. What does 'dpkg -l | grep grub' show now?
I have grub 2.0.2

What works for me now is the following:  If I do nothing, I boot 
directly
into Jessie.  However, if I wish to boot into Windoze, which is what 
I'll do
a lot for now, since I haven't even got an X11 system running on my 
Jessie,
I press and hold F12, to get into the choose boot method pre-OS screen.
There I choose Windows boot manager(recall that this is a new machine, a
generic Dell, so OF COURSE it had Windows installed.  And after choosing
this, of course what I get is a nice boot into Windoze.

Before leaving this topic, I have a remark:  I have been telling interested and
non-interested people for years that one doesn't have to completely abandon 
one's
long-held Windoze habit, one can install Linux as a second OS and play with both
until Linux has "sold itself".  I shudder to think of someone taking my advice,
following all the instructions, and winding up with a system where only Linux
is available.  Imagine being taken out of one's English-speaking world and 
dumped
into a village in Uzbekistan!

Fortunately I live in a facility where there is a "computer lab" to which I have
access.  And I was able to go there, use their Chrome browser to get to my 
his.com
E-mail facility, whine to you folks, and blunder my way through to a solution.
Other people won't have that good fortune.

Addendum:  during my Jessie install, the install program commented at one point:
"There doesn't seem to be any other OS on your system".  Jeez!!  I hope some
maintainer reads this complaint and Debian  works hard to make sure that the
operation of installing a second OS(Linux) on a Windoze box is as easy and
error-proof as it is possible to make it.

Best wishes, and thanks to all the kind responders who helped me.

Alan McConnell