vate back when it was far easier to join the project (and even
still, I think there was always a weeding factor).
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t it'd be helpful to refer to to support that
> point too... :-/
Sure. It used to be easier. Maybe it will be somewhat easier again. But
still, that's not the same thing as the general public; back when it was
easier, far fewer people were joining as well.
Please note that I'm not
the text, just in case the FSF fixes at least the DRM and
transparent copy provisions in a new release. As-is, the versioning is
not mentioned until the how to fix section, which makes sense right now
but which may look strange if read from the perspective of the future.
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Russ Allbery ([EMAI
Roger Leigh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> Joey Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>> I'm confused. Where does it say that we have to go through the GR
>>> process to issue a position statement for somethi
I suppose that might be sufficient.
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ase.debian.org/removing-non-free-documentation>
which is basically the statement that I had been looking for.
Given that, I'm not sure that a GR is really necessary, although I still
don't think it could hurt.
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e under "the terms of the GNU
> Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published
> by the Free Software Foundation", the Free Software Foundation is able
> to remedy these problems for a great many works by issuing a new version
> of the license. The problem
it, since just
saying "it's DFSG-free" without addressing the contradictions between it
and the DFSG isn't really a solution and results in a very unclear
interpretation.
I wonder if such a statement would essentially have to be a modification
of the DFSG to add a special
GFDL documentation, it would probably be worthwhile to publicize this
requirement more widely.
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ussion.
If we're going to put all the options on the ballot, let's go ahead and
put them *all* on the ballot so that no significant group of DDs can later
claim that their opinion wasn't represented by the choices.
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Adeodato Simó <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> * Russ Allbery [Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:17:14 -0800]:
>> If we're going to put all the options on the ballot, let's go ahead and
>> put them *all* on the ballot so that no significant group of DDs can
>> later claim tha
n leaving it unclear whether it's overriding the
DFSG requirement.
In other words, the differences are primarily technical (in my view), but
the wording is clearer and less ambiguous about what it's trying to
accomplish.
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icense is compatible with the rest of
the DFSG (and even if not, I think it's obvious that you could fiddle with
such an idea to come up with one that is), but I still think that it fails
the DFSG as a whole.
Assuming you buy this argument, the next obvious question is then whether
the restricti
ct
generally are not considered to have an impact on whether the work is
non-free.
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he FSF and who
would otherwise be lauding the FSF through word of mouth. And I guarantee
you that, at least *now*, far more people learn about the origins of free
software and the importance of those ideals through word of mouth than
some appendix to some manual that few people read cover-to-cover.
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split, but it does feel like splitting hairs
a bit.
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erent kettle of fish from invariant sections.
I'm not sure that I agree with this. So far as I know, there is no legal
requirement that copyright and warranty disclaimers be presented in
interactive programs. They must accompany the work in some legal
jurisdictions, but the GPL goes much far
ous information like the notices you list. The
license spells out exactly what you have to include, namely a copyright
notice, a notice of no warranty, a statement that the users may
redistribute the package under the GPL, and a way to view a copy of the
GPL. That's it. The form o
am, for instance. That doesn't make
either of them non-free.
So I don't understand what you're trying to get at, or what possible
relevance this theoretical discussion could have to anything else we're
talking about.
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Anton Zinoviev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Tue, Feb 07, 2006 at 03:33:10PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> So I don't understand what you're trying to get at, or what possible
>> relevance this theoretical discussion could have to anything else we're
Anton Zinoviev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Wed, Feb 08, 2006 at 09:40:36AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> The problem with the GFDL with invariant sections is very, very simple:
>> it doesn't allow modifications of portions of the work. Either people
>> consid
when what they're
trying to do in a GR doesn't make sense under the constitution, won't have
the effect they're aiming for, or will involve complications that they
don't realize.
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people who have declared them not correct have not
seen fit to provide standards to replace them. The result is, at least as
far as I'm concerned, pure confusion.
Again, the proponent was asked repeatedly to fix this and refused. So...
that's what we got on the ballot.
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n. Those are just inherently
difficult questions. It's not really useful to imply that they should be
easy.
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Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> Not for some reason, for some very obvious reasons. They're not
>> adequate as an immediate solution to this problem because separating
>> the firmware from the
t,
or not solve it at all, with the understanding that postponing it has so
far not resulted in a solution later. I think you've made it clear what
side you're on.
But please, let's not talk about trying to force developers to work on
particular projects.
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e had suggestions on a different way of handling
things are suffering due to the way that disagreement was expressed in a
few places.
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ot;, lead by
Anthony Towns, the current DPL, and Steve Mc Intyre, the Second in Charge.
However, this particular experiment is not the result of a decision of the
Debian Project.
The Debian Project wishes success to projects funding Debian or helping
towards the release of Etch.
=
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Russ
ugh, and *many* free software projects have already dealt
with issues like this in a reasonable way.
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;> variety of different positions involved in critical decisions. This
>> isn't exactly a new problem, though, and *many* free software projects
>> have already dealt with issues like this in a reasonable way.
> As far as I can tell, the developer body is not united in that
ct Erich's "they" referred to "dunc-tank" not "people." :)
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ect is large enough that it's unlikely to be united
in anything other than the sorts of general goals without which they
wouldn't bother to be a Debian Developer at all.
> I suspect that I've reached Matthew Wilcox's 3-post-per-day limit now.
I managed to teach lint
Julien BLACHE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> Now, if you become the release manager, and your employer makes your
>>> compensation contingent on Debian not releasing before February of
>>> 2010, no one can
Mike Bird <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Saturday 23 September 2006 14:17, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> The solution to this sort of situation is, again, a matter of ethics.
>> As a Debian Developer, I agreed to be part of this project. To me,
>> that carries an ethical o
Julien BLACHE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> What's the difference between my employer trying to get me to do
>> something unethical that violates an agreement with Debian or someone
>> else trying to get me to
have one?
It's the "Ian should never have proposed this in the first place, but
since he did, there's no way in hell I'm going to vote for more discussion
since that's the last thing we need" option.
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that explicitly rejects
resolution by GR. Otherwise, I'd probably vote the entire thing below
more discussion.
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ect on the project; the real
choice is between one or the other means of saying "we support AJ as DPL"
or not saying that (choice 3).
I think it would have been somewhat clearer if it were all on the same
ballot as the recall, but I do understand the reasoning.
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d unless sufficient people vote to Re-affirm the DPL *and*
> vote to recall him.
You only hurt the ones you love. :)
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cess, where it is explicitly
acknowledged that there are often working group members who are part of
the rough rather than the consensus.
In any event, *this* particular vote and tempest is rapidly on its way to
becoming moot through something that I think we can call consensus by any
def
MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Consensus as used in these sorts of discussions and documents is not
>> synonymous with unanimity. It is consensus in the vein of M-W's 1(b)
>> definition: "the jud
MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> That's certainly someting to strive for, but I don't think it's a
>> practical *requirement* in an organization the size of Debian. I do
>> agree that we shouldn&
ations who had to clean up after the
mess they make. Involvement in a destructive trolling organization to me
indicates a real disrespect for other people's volunteer work, which is
directly relevant to Debian.
I too would like a real answer to Stephen's question.
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that
such humor would be appropriate on, say, Debian mailing lists or IRC
channels?
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Sam Hocevar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Sat, Mar 03, 2007, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> You seem to be a frequent contributor to a site associated with GNAA,
>> which is a trolling organization that has had past run-ins with
>> Wikipedia and other volunteer projects
d responsiveness of the porters for both kfreebsd
and hurd to be excellent and ongoing and I'm happy to apply their work to
my packages and don't want to see us stand in the way of their goals.
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y from this thread.
(Of course, this probably also isn't the right forum.)
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mail as well
as sign it; the real solution is to use PGP/MIME, since the standard then
says what to do to interoperate.
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that licenses are exempted from
the requirements of the DFSG would be an argument that the preamble of the
GPL is not a license and hence we have to remove it from the archives.)
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dless
mailing list noise? I don't see any evidence that it would, regardless of
the outcome.
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ardless of any merits the entire situation
is now set in concrete), but discussing it publicly on mailing lists
clearly isn't one of them, as has been demonstrated time and time again
for more than a year now.
I probably won't respond further to this thread, for all the reasons
spelled out abo
down to
the same thing in the end.
The difference in a professional workplace is that the people in authority
aren't shy to make decisions, make them much earlier and faster, and
enforce them in a considerably more draconian fashion than Debian does.
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MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> The difference in a professional workplace is that the people in
>> authority aren't shy to make decisions, make them much earlier and
>> faster, and enforce them in a co
d
occasionally it's going to be more broken than it needs to be, and don't
spend the rest of time revisiting decisions over and over. At some point,
you have to say enough is enough, walk away from the mess, and move on.
Poking at it forever doesn't make it better.
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e explicitly
stated in the existing guidelines and there's always some low-level
controversy over whether the existing terms really do imply them.
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Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> For example, for the "desert island test" and part of the "dissident
> test", what about a GR with the following two ballot options:
> The DFSG are hereby amended to add the following additional guideline:
&g
who are the people who actually decide what is DFSG-free or
> not.
> Are you really looking for more issues over which developers could be
> divided?
No, I'm looking to have a vote so that we can reach a conclusion and a
resolution. Notice that I'm explicitly proposing two
MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [...]
>> The DFSG are hereby amended to add the following additional guideline:
>> 10. No Required Contribution of Changes [...]
>> 11. No Required Identity Disclosure [.
Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Tue, Jun 05, 2007 at 12:09:27PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> For example, for the "desert island test" and part of the "dissident
>> test", what about a GR with the following two ballot options:
> I&#x
Josip Rodin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Wed, Jun 06, 2007 at 10:40:57AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> I disagree strongly with the latter part of that statement. Various
>> people are still *upset* about the Editorial Changes GR, but at least
>> from where I
nch of people stalled in this
limbo for even longer since their upload rights are "good enough" and we
lose motivation to finish fully integrating them into the project.
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cause there are so
few bugs, so many packages, and usually the only actions on packages are
minor tweaks and new upstream releases. I'm not sure there are many other
teams like that.
Of course, I also think that you'd be a good DD, at least from my
experience watching you work. :)
-
ntained by someone who isn't keeping up with Debian-wide changes, and
which have to be chased down every time we do a major transition. I don't
think adding more package maintainers who aren't connected with what's
going on with the rest of the project is a great idea. At lea
Raphael Hertzog <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Thu, 26 Jul 2007, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> My primary worry about this proposal is that it leads to an increasing
>> number of packages in the archive that are someone's pet project,
> Every useful software is the pet
u decided to fork the process in this
proposal, but I at least feel from Joerg's response that this is
excessively pessimistic.
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Reinhard Tartler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> For example, if a DM wants to later become a full DD, so far as I can
>> tell they get no automatic credit for being a DM. While an AM could
>> take that into account, it s
e get from sponsorship without the problems
down the road. But I don't feel comfortable supporting what went to vote.
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former DPLs come forward
to say that this just wouldn't work for some reason. I've felt the same
thing for a while as well. One year isn't much time to get anything done;
it's barely enough time to build up the rapport required to start getting
things done.
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Raphael Hertzog <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Sun, 29 Jul 2007, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> So propose something that implements it, rather than implementing
>> something different and then saying we can change it later. It's
>> always easier to change things before
hen. This feels like sponsorship except
with even fewer quality checks after the first sponsorship.
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Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Wed, Aug 01, 2007 at 01:57:53AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> Hm. I have to admit I'd be much more inclined to vote for things like
>> this that I don't really like but that may work out if they
>> self-destr
Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> So far, the only arguments I've seen of that type are "I don't want to
> be associated with the project but I still want to maintain Debian
> packages" and "I don't want to go through the NM process just to
&
oing to make it a formal amendment.
Thank you for doing the research for this, Wouter. I've been wondering
for a while whether this would be a good idea, and it's very good to get
concrete information.
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-
ke of voting or nomination systems that
don't take into account the ability of the chosen slate to work with each
other. I'd rather end up with a weaker candidate who can cooperate with
the leading candidate than the two strongest candidates who will then be
at loggerheads.
-
Josip Rodin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 04:48:20PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> I think this runs the same risk as the original US Vice Presidential
>> election system. If you elect the runner-up as part of the same slate
>> as the winner, y
Josip Rodin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Tue, Oct 09, 2007 at 01:38:26AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> Hm, my experience is that this is *way* more important for social
>> groups than it is for technical groups. Now, if one is electing
>> essentially a legisl
x27;m just way too conservative about not
creating these sorts of tensions among working groups. It may just not be
a problem. It may be that the people who get elected via whatever means
to the soc-ctte will all be people who can get along with others even if
they disagree sharply and who know ho
Bas Wijnen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Tue, Oct 09, 2007 at 02:22:41AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> One of the things that I find troubling about the idea of the social
>> committee is that I think it takes the idea of a democratic body and
>> some vague notions
I think I have a vague idea of how you're connecting the dots, but
I'd rather not try to read your mind. :)
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find people to do work by doing
governance shuffling. Someone still has to step up and do the work. Ask
on debian-devel for someone to do the NMU.
I think you've identified some clear issues with the tech-ctte, namely
it's underutilized and it has problems with follow-through and closure.
However, I don't see how your current proposal addresses those problems.
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Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 10:45:25PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> I'm not sure that Ian deciding that he doesn't think the tech-ctte is
>> functional or fast enough and hence isn't going to even give it an
>> op
Ian Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Russ Allbery writes ("Re: Technical committee resolution"):
>> (2) here is again a question of follow-through, and I don't see how
>> your proposal addresses that. The problem again is that someone has to
>>
Ian Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Russ Allbery writes ("Re: Technical committee resolution"):
>> Have you raised this idea with the tech-ctte? What do the other
>> members think of having review of Policy change proposals be part of
>> the tech-ctte
g the technical committee
would, in and of itself, make it better, or that new members would somehow
bring more to it than the existing members simply because they're new.
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omewhat reasonable, although I don't
think it's as persuasive as you think it is. But that last clause is
simply wrong. You can count on my vote against any proposal that changes
things just for the sake of changing things.
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inguishes them from, say,
lumps of rock is that humans are capable of learning and exploring new
ideas and trying new things. Hence, it turns out that a group of people
can look at new ways of doing things without changing the people.
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nable. I don't know if it was
originally intended that way, but the current governance does seem to be
set up to encourage that.
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right now what's going on is fairly opaque and
a few simple changes should help that a great deal.
I'm sorry this has taken so long -- I've been struggling to find time to
provide enough information to other people so that they can help. I have
now finally also pinged all the
on't know if it is, but I see no valid technical reasons for
> it not to be).
In theory, right now, Joerg already does the review, so all that's left
afterwards is a task that could theoretically be under two minutes. I
don't know if that's how it works in practic
. Any takers?
I basically just went ahead and did that. However, please do look over
what I sent to debian-policy about that, since I fiddled with it a bit and
the fiddling is certainly open for discussion.
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would then be implemented.
It's not the only way to solve that problem, but having the tech-ctte
members also be natural liaisons to other key parts of Debian is
potentially very helpful.
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Clint Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Thu, Apr 03, 2008 at 05:10:27PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> I do agree with Ian, however, that the tech-ctte is one of the worst
>> examples for limiting hats for a slightly different reason: the
>> tech-ctte needs to mak
Josip Rodin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Thu, Apr 03, 2008 at 05:10:27PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> I do agree with Ian, however, that the tech-ctte is one of the worst
>> examples for limiting hats for a slightly different reason: the
>> tech-ctte needs to mak
ept
> people.
I'll feel better if we also see evidence of resolution of the problems
with keyring-maint, but I'm feeling cautiously optimistic right now. It's
been wonderful to see Joerg's flurry of activity.
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I agree with this. I think getting DPL blessing for additional delegates
should be simple and straightforward in the normal, uncontroversial case,
and there's no reason not to do that and several very good reasons to take
the moment required to send the e-mail and ask for it.
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uploading packages, since
it would be more practical.
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doesn't seem to be a problem that we have. We're currently
erring so far in the other direction that I have a hard time seeing that
become the major issue.
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Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
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Josip Rodin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 06:18:19PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> Josip Rodin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>> At the same time, notice that the desire of teams to be less susceptible
>>> to random changes by the DPL s
about other people's free software practices.
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Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
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Wouter Verhelst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 04:51:45PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> Wouter Verhelst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>> - I've always considered Debian to be a leading member of the Free
>>> Software community; a
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