cvs commit: cocoon-2.1/src/java/org/apache/cocoon/bean CocoonBean.java

2003-07-17 Thread joerg
joerg 2003/07/17 22:00:08 Modified:src/java/org/apache/cocoon/bean CocoonBean.java Log: fixed NPE: logger was used before it is initialized Revision ChangesPath 1.14 +2 -2 cocoon-2.1/src/java/org/apache/cocoon/bean/CocoonBean.java Index: CocoonBean.java

Re: [flow] session creation

2003-07-17 Thread Christopher Oliver
Geoff Howard wrote: Thank you for this solution! Can you explain to my poor pea brain the difference between a global variable and a global constant in this context? IOW, if I want to use global "contants" how do I create and access them in such a way as to avoid a session? Geoff If you as

Re: Woody-flow to FOM migration question

2003-07-17 Thread Christopher Oliver
Bruno Dumon wrote: FOMmers, Chris mostly, I'm looking at porting the Woody-Flow integration to the FOM. This is all new stuff for me, but just to check that I'm on the right track: is it correct that things like new WebContinuation(...) and cocoon.forwardTo(...) can now only be done in Java code?

[Woody] New tag -> Re: Woody and user help....

2003-07-17 Thread Antonio Gallardo
Bruno Dumon dijo: > On Fri, 2003-07-18 at 00:09, Antonio Gallardo wrote: >> Hi: >> >> Will be included the tag into Woody? > > Oops, sorry for ignoring your previous mail about the topic... actually > I have been pondering a while about whether the wd:label tag in the form > definition makes any s

cvs commit: cocoon-site/src/documentation/content/xdocs/link livesites.xml

2003-07-17 Thread joerg
joerg 2003/07/17 16:06:42 Modified:src/documentation/content/xdocs/link livesites.xml Log: Douglas Mawson Institute of Technology (http://www.dmit.sa.edu.au/cocoon/dmit/home.xml) Forestland Adventure Travel (http://www.forestland.gr/) Bildung für Afghanistan e.V. (http://www.b

Re: [MVC] OJB+Woody+Flow

2003-07-17 Thread Antonio Gallardo
Bruno Dumon dijo: > On Fri, 2003-07-18 at 00:07, Antonio Gallardo wrote: > [...] >> >> View - Woody recieves a bean from the controller. Make form validation >> and return the bean to the controller. > > Just to make sure that you got it right: you can't just give a bean to > Woody. Woody builds it

Re: [MVC] OJB+Woody+Flow

2003-07-17 Thread Bruno Dumon
On Fri, 2003-07-18 at 00:07, Antonio Gallardo wrote: [...] > > View - Woody recieves a bean from the controller. Make form validation and > return the bean to the controller. Just to make sure that you got it right: you can't just give a bean to Woody. Woody builds its own form-datastructure that

Re: [MVC] OJB+Woody+Flow

2003-07-17 Thread Stefano Mazzocchi
On Thursday, Jul 17, 2003, at 15:50 America/Guayaquil, Antonio Gallardo wrote: Hi: I was ending my simple research of how to start a new web application using Cocoon. I choosed to use the MVC (Model View Controler) approach. My proposal is: Database: PostgreSQL Model: Java+OJB - http://db.apac

Re: Woody and user help....

2003-07-17 Thread Bruno Dumon
On Fri, 2003-07-18 at 00:09, Antonio Gallardo wrote: > Hi: > > Will be included the tag into Woody? Oops, sorry for ignoring your previous mail about the topic... actually I have been pondering a while about whether the wd:label tag in the form definition makes any sense at all (and if it should

Re: [RT] Adaptive Caching

2003-07-17 Thread Stefano Mazzocchi
On Thursday, Jul 17, 2003, at 13:29 America/Guayaquil, Hunsberger, Peter wrote: Stefano Mazzocchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes (and writes, and writes, and writes): LOL! WARNING: this RT is long! and very dense, so I suggest you to turn on your printer. I don't have time to go through this in de

Re: Woody and user help....

2003-07-17 Thread Antonio Gallardo
Hi: Will be included the tag into Woody? Need it a votation? Best Regards, Antonio Gallardo. Antonio Gallardo dijo: > Tony Collen dijo: >> Antonio Gallardo wrote: >>> Tony Collen dijo: >>> Well, call me a luddite but I'm not a huge fan of the DHTML... what's wrong with slapping help

Re: [MVC] OJB+Woody+Flow

2003-07-17 Thread Antonio Gallardo
Hi: Thanks for the answer Marc. I am starting from OJB. I am currently studing it. I will try understand it before to start the Cocoon integration. I think the integration will be done with Beans. The idea is like always: Controler (Flow): Control application flow, data are managed in a bean.

Woody-flow to FOM migration question

2003-07-17 Thread Bruno Dumon
FOMmers, Chris mostly, I'm looking at porting the Woody-Flow integration to the FOM. This is all new stuff for me, but just to check that I'm on the right track: is it correct that things like new WebContinuation(...) and cocoon.forwardTo(...) can now only be done in Java code? And that brings up

Re: [RT] Adaptive Caching

2003-07-17 Thread Stefano Mazzocchi
On Thursday, Jul 17, 2003, at 12:48 America/Guayaquil, Berin Loritsch wrote: Berin Loritsch wrote: The concept translates over to the adaptive cache approach at almost 1:1. The actual individual cost sample is not important. It is the windowed average that is important. For our cache a simpl

Re: [RT] Adaptive Caching

2003-07-17 Thread Berin Loritsch
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: On Thursday, Jul 17, 2003, at 08:03 America/Guayaquil, Berin Loritsch wrote: [skipping nice parallel in digital audio] The concept translates over to the adaptive cache approach at almost 1:1. The actual individual cost sample is not important. It is the windowed avera

Re: [RT] Adaptive Caching

2003-07-17 Thread Stefano Mazzocchi
On Thursday, Jul 17, 2003, at 08:03 America/Guayaquil, Berin Loritsch wrote: [skipping nice parallel in digital audio] The concept translates over to the adaptive cache approach at almost 1:1. The actual individual cost sample is not important. It is the windowed average that is important. We

RE: [Vote] Controller/Sitemap integration

2003-07-17 Thread Reinhard Pötz
> Coming back on the vote: > the issue here is not really about renaming these classes, but > about introducing this FlowState abstraction layer. Your remark > rightfully makes me see I was starting to overlook the subtle nuance. > > all in all, I have the feeling this is not really part of the

Re: [MVC] OJB+Woody+Flow

2003-07-17 Thread Marc Portier
Antonio Gallardo wrote: Hi: I was ending my simple research of how to start a new web application using Cocoon. I choosed to use the MVC (Model View Controler) approach. My proposal is: Database: PostgreSQL Model: Java+OJB - http://db.apache.org/ojb/ View: Woody Controler: Flow in Cocoon CVS. I

Re: [Vote] Controller/Sitemap integration

2003-07-17 Thread Marc Portier
Reinhard Pötz wrote: From: Marc Portier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Mark, Good remarks! thx. Renamings: - V1 : FlowState(and -Manager) I would leave the names as they are because as you (I think it was you) pointed out that this belongs to the implementation and not the interface. So

[MVC] OJB+Woody+Flow

2003-07-17 Thread Antonio Gallardo
Hi: I was ending my simple research of how to start a new web application using Cocoon. I choosed to use the MVC (Model View Controler) approach. My proposal is: Database: PostgreSQL Model: Java+OJB - http://db.apache.org/ojb/ View: Woody Controler: Flow in Cocoon CVS. If someone has already ex

Re: [Vote] Controller/Sitemap integration

2003-07-17 Thread Marc Portier
Christopher Oliver wrote: Marc Portier wrote: Confusing comes from what we understand under 'Continuation' 1/ Sylvain's meaning when he states other impl should be possible: The word continuation has been associated to this notion of having frozen execution stacks that can be picked up aga

[mock] Adaptive Caching

2003-07-17 Thread Berin Loritsch
I have thrown together something that will at least help evaluate and fine-tune the thoughts on adaptive caching. I adapted the looped pseudo code (~ on page 5 if you printed it out). You will find that the actual value of the cost plays a *huge* difference in how this thing works. In fact it pla

RE: [Vote] Controller/Sitemap integration

2003-07-17 Thread Reinhard Pötz
Hi Jörg, From: Joerg Heinicke > > > Reinhard Pötz wrote: > > As I have been confused by all those suggestions you can find a > > summary > > here: > > http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=FlowSitemapIntegration > > Cool summary, really helps a lot. And here the cool voting matrix :) > >

Re: [flow] session creation

2003-07-17 Thread Geoff Howard
Thank you for this solution! Can you explain to my poor pea brain the difference between a global variable and a global constant in this context? IOW, if I want to use global "contants" how do I create and access them in such a way as to avoid a session? Geoff Christopher Oliver wrote: Vadim

DO NOT REPLY [Bug 20736] - JXForms validator rejects null value for numeric field

2003-07-17 Thread bugzilla
DO NOT REPLY TO THIS EMAIL, BUT PLEASE POST YOUR BUG RELATED COMMENTS THROUGH THE WEB INTERFACE AVAILABLE AT . ANY REPLY MADE TO THIS MESSAGE WILL NOT BE COLLECTED AND INSERTED IN THE BUG DATABASE. http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bu

DO NOT REPLY [Bug 20308] - Stylesheet includes not working with XSLTC

2003-07-17 Thread bugzilla
DO NOT REPLY TO THIS EMAIL, BUT PLEASE POST YOUR BUG RELATED COMMENTS THROUGH THE WEB INTERFACE AVAILABLE AT . ANY REPLY MADE TO THIS MESSAGE WILL NOT BE COLLECTED AND INSERTED IN THE BUG DATABASE. http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bu

DO NOT REPLY [Bug 20308] - Stylesheet includes not working with XSLTC

2003-07-17 Thread bugzilla
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DO NOT REPLY [Bug 20084] - Serious problem with TraxTransformer

2003-07-17 Thread bugzilla
DO NOT REPLY TO THIS EMAIL, BUT PLEASE POST YOUR BUG RELATED COMMENTS THROUGH THE WEB INTERFACE AVAILABLE AT . ANY REPLY MADE TO THIS MESSAGE WILL NOT BE COLLECTED AND INSERTED IN THE BUG DATABASE. http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bu

Re: [Vote] Controller/Sitemap integration

2003-07-17 Thread Joerg Heinicke
Reinhard Pötz wrote: As I have been confused by all those suggestions you can find a summary here: http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=FlowSitemapIntegration Cool summary, really helps a lot. And here the cool voting matrix :) | A | B | C | D | E | |---|---

cvs commit: cocoon-2.1 .cvsignore

2003-07-17 Thread joerg
joerg 2003/07/17 12:03:11 Modified:..cvsignore Log: IDEA project files Revision ChangesPath 1.4 +2 -0 cocoon-2.1/.cvsignore Index: .cvsignore === RCS file: /home/cvs/cocoon-2.1/.

cvs commit: cocoon-2.1/src/targets ide-build.xml

2003-07-17 Thread joerg
joerg 2003/07/17 12:01:42 Modified:src/targets ide-build.xml Log: splitted the eclipse-webapp-prepare target for usage with external started servlet containers in combination with WEB-INF/classes as eclipse output folder Revision ChangesPath 1.10 +10 -4 cocoon

Re: Blob protocol... missing BlobSource logger declaration

2003-07-17 Thread Sylvain Wallez
Olivier Billard wrote: Hi all ! I'm trying to use the blob protocol. It uses the BlobSourceFactory, defined in the cocoon.xconf. The factory uses BlobSource class, which is AbstractLogEnabled. But where is the logger defined for this component ? The BlobSource isn't defined anywhere ?!? So whe

cvs commit: cocoon-2.1/src/blocks/databases/java/org/apache/cocoon/components/source/impl BlobSourceFactory.java

2003-07-17 Thread sylvain
sylvain 2003/07/17 11:50:52 Modified:src/blocks/databases/java/org/apache/cocoon/components/source/impl BlobSourceFactory.java Log: Enable logging on the BlobSource. Reported by: Olivier Billard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Revision ChangesPath 1.2

RE: [RT] Adaptive Caching

2003-07-17 Thread Hunsberger, Peter
Berin Loritsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > For this reason, providing a generic cache that works on > whole resources is a much more efficient use of time. For > example, it would make my site run much more efficiently if I > could use a cache for my database bound objects instead of > cr

Re: [flow] session creation

2003-07-17 Thread Vadim Gritsenko
Christopher Oliver wrote: Vadim, Your observations are correct. However, I just checked in a change to FOM_JavaScriptInterpreter that causes it to only create a session if you actually modify global variables. (Note: global constants do not cause a session to be created). For example, if you

RE: [RT] Adaptive Caching

2003-07-17 Thread Hunsberger, Peter
Jason Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> asks: > Unfortunately even with constant cost savings this is a > variant of the > Knapsack problem, which means it's NP-complete. Stefano's > cache would > then be a packing heuristic :) I think you're correct for a fully loaded system (which is when the al

RE: [RT] Adaptive Caching

2003-07-17 Thread Hunsberger, Peter
Stefano Mazzocchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes (and writes, and writes, and writes): > WARNING: this RT is long! and very dense, so I suggest you to > turn on your printer. I don't have time to go through this in detail yet, but I've had a couple of fundamental questions that it might be usef

Re: [RT] Adaptive Caching

2003-07-17 Thread Berin Loritsch
Berin Loritsch wrote: The concept translates over to the adaptive cache approach at almost 1:1. The actual individual cost sample is not important. It is the windowed average that is important. For our cache a simple mean would best suit our problem space. The size of the window for our sample

Re: [flow] session creation

2003-07-17 Thread Christopher Oliver
Vadim, Your observations are correct. However, I just checked in a change to FOM_JavaScriptInterpreter that causes it to only create a session if you actually modify global variables. (Note: global constants do not cause a session to be created). For example, if you modify the calculator sampl

cvs commit: cocoon-2.1/src/java/org/apache/cocoon/components/flow/javascript/fom FOM_Cocoon.java FOM_JavaScriptInterpreter.java

2003-07-17 Thread coliver
coliver 2003/07/17 10:12:52 Modified:src/java/org/apache/cocoon/components/flow/javascript/fom FOM_Cocoon.java FOM_JavaScriptInterpreter.java Log: Only use session if JS global variables are written Revision ChangesPath 1.4 +2 -1 cocoon

Re: Using built-in stylesheets tags in other built-in stylesheets

2003-07-17 Thread Steven Cummings
Just an FYI: I've sometimes gotten a NullPointer exception when trying to where the current node wasn't an element. As a result, I split my "pass-through" templates into two templates: I might have seen this done elsewhere when I first encountered the problem but I do

Blob protocol... missing BlobSource logger declaration

2003-07-17 Thread Olivier Billard
Hi all ! I'm trying to use the blob protocol. It uses the BlobSourceFactory, defined in the cocoon.xconf. The factory uses BlobSource class, which is AbstractLogEnabled. But where is the logger defined for this component ? The BlobSource isn't defined anywhere ?!? So when I use the blob protocol

Re: [Vote] Controller/Sitemap integration

2003-07-17 Thread Christopher Oliver
Marc Portier wrote: Confusing comes from what we understand under 'Continuation' 1/ Sylvain's meaning when he states other impl should be possible: The word continuation has been associated to this notion of having frozen execution stacks that can be picked up again. I guess this understand

RE: [Vote] Controller/Sitemap integration

2003-07-17 Thread Reinhard Pötz
From: Marc Portier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Mark, Good remarks! > My list then becomes: > Integrating the flow processor/engine: >- V2 : flows/flow/(@type,@name)/* +1 > Call a flow the first time: >- V2 : initialize/(@flow,@type)/paramaters +1 > Continue a flow: (just added th

Re: Using built-in stylesheets tags in other built-in stylesheets

2003-07-17 Thread Olivier Billard
Hi Adrian, I didn't saw that the missed the ... (damned) Thank a lot ! -- Olivier Billard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Oliver, For a logicsheet to work properly, you must a) provide a default transformation for elements not handled by your XSL eg.

Re: [Vote] Controller/Sitemap integration

2003-07-17 Thread Marc Portier
Reinhard Pötz wrote: As I have been confused by all those suggestions you can find a summary here: http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=FlowSitemapIntegration nice, helps controlling my confusion as well After the discussion and all your opinions I would prefer: Integrating the flow proces

RE: Using built-in stylesheets tags in other built-in stylesheets

2003-07-17 Thread adrian . geissel
Hi Oliver, For a logicsheet to work properly, you must a) provide a default transformation for elements not handled by your XSL eg. and b) you must have a root handler, to kick the whole thing off: Then, all you need to do is call in the s

Re: [Vote] Controller/Sitemap integration

2003-07-17 Thread Stephan Michels
> > Could someone who resonates with the vision for these other potential > > (non javascript-with-continuations) implementations of flow comment on > > this quickly? If it satisfies you, I have no personal objection. > > Here you have four different states: > > state 0: > x = "bla"; > sendP

Re: Using built-in stylesheets tags in other built-in stylesheets

2003-07-17 Thread Olivier Billard
Hi Tim, Thanks for your answer. I've tried xsp < esql < mystylesheet and xsp < mystylesheet < esql and none worked... It seems that order in namespace declaration is no longer taken into consideration... Any other idea ? -- Olivier BILLARD Tim Myers wrote: The stylesheets get chained togeth

Patch to "Problems with double click in coplet "

2003-07-17 Thread hartmut . zimmermann
Hi at all, we have found the problem of the double click bug and fixed them ... so and here is the code snippet of the double click bug in "class sunSpot" , method "private showProtal(..)" : The problem was, that all threads are working on the same list of sunletContens. That is not pretty good,

RE: [Vote] Controller/Sitemap integration

2003-07-17 Thread Stephan Michels
> > So, here we have a DFA. > > > > The 'continuation' means to freeze the current state of the > > execution. The benefit of the continuations are that you have > > a history of the states, which you had traversed. And like a > > backtracking algorithm, you can go back to a previous state > > an

RE: [Vote] Controller/Sitemap integration

2003-07-17 Thread Reinhard Pötz
> IMHO: > I think the verb 'continue' catches a broader consensus: > interactions or use cases are indeed just started(initiated) or > continued, and this also captures the relation the sitemap has to > this. > The noun 'continuation' has gotten a ring of being tied to a > interpreted-language

Re: Using built-in stylesheets tags in other built-in stylesheets

2003-07-17 Thread Tim Myers
The stylesheets get chained together in a pipeline one after the other. The only issue of one stylesheet using another is order in the pipeline. Your xsp must be transformed by any logicsheet that uses another logicsheet before it is transformed by that other logicsheet. xsp.xsl is the least de

Re: [Vote] Controller/Sitemap integration

2003-07-17 Thread Marc Portier
Geoff Howard wrote: Stephan Michels wrote: ... We don't call states in this sense. We continue a continuation ;-) I guess is bad. or ... - rename "WebContinuation" to "FlowState", and accordingly "WebContinuationManager" to "FlowStateManager". Yes, the Continuation represent

Using built-in stylesheets tags in other built-in stylesheets

2003-07-17 Thread Olivier Billard
Hi all ! I've already asked this question on the users list, but the dev-ers may be more able to answer... :) I would like to know if there is any issue in using tablibs from built-in stylesheets (like esql) in user-custom built-in stylesheets. For me, no Java code is generated... Isn't it pos

RE: [Vote] Controller/Sitemap integration

2003-07-17 Thread Reinhard Pötz
From: Stephan Michels > On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Geoff Howard wrote: > > > Stephan Michels wrote: > > > > >> - rename "WebContinuation" to "FlowState", and accordingly > > >>"WebContinuationManager" to "FlowStateManager". > > > > > > Yes, the Continuation represents a state, but to ma

DO NOT REPLY [Bug 20308] - Stylesheet includes not working with XSLTC

2003-07-17 Thread bugzilla
DO NOT REPLY TO THIS EMAIL, BUT PLEASE POST YOUR BUG RELATED COMMENTS THROUGH THE WEB INTERFACE AVAILABLE AT . ANY REPLY MADE TO THIS MESSAGE WILL NOT BE COLLECTED AND INSERTED IN THE BUG DATABASE. http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bu

DO NOT REPLY [Bug 21671] - [woody] initial binding framework

2003-07-17 Thread bugzilla
DO NOT REPLY TO THIS EMAIL, BUT PLEASE POST YOUR BUG RELATED COMMENTS THROUGH THE WEB INTERFACE AVAILABLE AT . ANY REPLY MADE TO THIS MESSAGE WILL NOT BE COLLECTED AND INSERTED IN THE BUG DATABASE. http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bu

Re: [Vote] Controller/Sitemap integration

2003-07-17 Thread Stephan Michels
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Geoff Howard wrote: > Stephan Michels wrote: > > >> - rename "WebContinuation" to "FlowState", and accordingly > >>"WebContinuationManager" to "FlowStateManager". > > > > Yes, the Continuation represents a state, but to make a clear > > difference as a new conce

Re: [RT] Adaptive Caching

2003-07-17 Thread Berin Loritsch
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: The functions as defined by your initial algorithm used the sum notation, which means we needed to maintain a list of samples for the resource. I.e. the cost functions identified were a function of the resource and time of request. The more samples maintained, the less

Re: [Vote] Controller/Sitemap integration

2003-07-17 Thread Geoff Howard
Stephan Michels wrote: ... We don't call states in this sense. We continue a continuation ;-) I guess is bad. or ... - rename "WebContinuation" to "FlowState", and accordingly "WebContinuationManager" to "FlowStateManager". Yes, the Continuation represents a state, but to make a c

DO NOT REPLY [Bug 21671] - [woody] initial binding framework

2003-07-17 Thread bugzilla
DO NOT REPLY TO THIS EMAIL, BUT PLEASE POST YOUR BUG RELATED COMMENTS THROUGH THE WEB INTERFACE AVAILABLE AT . ANY REPLY MADE TO THIS MESSAGE WILL NOT BE COLLECTED AND INSERTED IN THE BUG DATABASE. http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bu

cvs commit: cocoon-2.1/src/blocks/webdav/java/org/apache/cocoon/components/source/impl WebDAVSourceFactory.java

2003-07-17 Thread gianugo
gianugo 2003/07/17 05:24:53 Modified:.status.xml src/blocks/webdav/java/org/apache/cocoon/components/source/impl WebDAVSourceFactory.java Log: Added URL encoding of user/password in the WebDAV source (webdav://user:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/pa

RE: [Vote] Controller/Sitemap integration

2003-07-17 Thread Reinhard Pötz
As I have been confused by all those suggestions you can find a summary here: http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=FlowSitemapIntegration After the discussion and all your opinions I would prefer: Integrating the flow processor/engine: --

Re: [RT] the value of being wrong

2003-07-17 Thread Sylvain Wallez
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: I have taken a step back and reconsidered the whole discussion about flow and how to implement it. Stefano, I will not answer in detail to this RT (computer time is scarce during holidays), but let me say that I'm happy to see your "balkanization paranoia" going do

Re: [RT] Less is More, Finite State Machines and Balkanization

2003-07-17 Thread Sylvain Wallez
Christopher Oliver wrote: Sylvain, I can see from your response that this discussion has become adversarial , and I regret that. I remember, after Ovidiu, you were the first person to welcome me to Cocoon, and you have always seemed to have a good and positive attitude. You're right on bot

Re: [Vote] Controller/Sitemap integration

2003-07-17 Thread Stephan Michels
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Joerg Heinicke wrote: > Stephan Michels wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So this will be coherent with the other objects. > > Which leads the sentence "This reflects that the flow is not a *usual* > sitemap resource but something else." ad abs

RE: [Vote] Controller/Sitemap integration

2003-07-17 Thread Reinhard Pötz
From: Joerg Heinicke > Because of this upcomming naming discussion I guess the vote > started to > early. Unfortunatly you are right. After the "balkanization" discussion I thought that the people here are satisfied with Marc's/Sylvain's proposal. In the meantime I'm really tired of waiting