Re: JDK requirements for building NB

[Antonio]

JDK 11 is not available in FreeBSD as of yet, AFAIK.

Cheers,
Antonio

El 19/08/2018 a las 21:15, William L. Thomson Jr. escribió:

JDK 11 release is next month. JDK 10 is current. If there was a JDK 10


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Re: JDK requirements for building NB

[Geertjan Wielenga]

This new thread continues this discussion:

https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/a26c7aa138443058433dc4cacfbc98bad397021a3dd4fd1bcb582054@%3Cdev.netbeans.apache.org%3E

Thanks,

Gj


On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 10:06 AM, Neil C Smith 
wrote:

> On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 at 00:47, Scott Palmer  wrote:
> > Yes, but JDK 8 becomes an unsupported platform soon (unless you pay).
> When that support ends in early 2019, I think it makes sense that NetBeans
> can be built with a supported JDK.
>
> You are talking purely about Oracle's JDK, not JDK 8 in general, and
> even then that's not the only relevant date.  If you're really
> advocating that NetBeans should require Oracle's free JDK to build,
> we'll be changing build requirements every six months! ;-)
>
> On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 at 04:41, Jan Lahoda  wrote:
> >
> > What might be more complex is a NB Platform application that enhances the
> > Java support, but I suspect most platform apps don't do that.
>
> I'm hoping I've now migrated away from anything that might be a
> problem there.  Next step is to start experimenting with upgrading 8.2
> -> 9.0.  Assuming, of course, we continue supporting JDK 8! :-)
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
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Re: JDK requirements for building NB

[Neil C Smith]

On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 at 00:47, Scott Palmer  wrote:
> Yes, but JDK 8 becomes an unsupported platform soon (unless you pay).  When 
> that support ends in early 2019, I think it makes sense that NetBeans can be 
> built with a supported JDK.

You are talking purely about Oracle's JDK, not JDK 8 in general, and
even then that's not the only relevant date.  If you're really
advocating that NetBeans should require Oracle's free JDK to build,
we'll be changing build requirements every six months! ;-)

On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 at 04:41, Jan Lahoda  wrote:
>
> What might be more complex is a NB Platform application that enhances the
> Java support, but I suspect most platform apps don't do that.

I'm hoping I've now migrated away from anything that might be a
problem there.  Next step is to start experimenting with upgrading 8.2
-> 9.0.  Assuming, of course, we continue supporting JDK 8! :-)

Best wishes,

Neil

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Re: JDK requirements for building NB

[Geertjan Wielenga]

On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 1:47 AM, Scott Palmer  wrote:

>
>
>
> There may also be a desire to use newer JDK features for the development
> of NetBeans itself, or NetBeans modules.  What if some new JDK tooling
> (e.g. the upcoming jpackager that hopefully makes it into JDK 12) requires
> that the corresponding NetBeans module that supports it can compile against
> that version of the JDK?
>


That's my point: what you describe above will never happen AFAIK. For
example, features are right now in Apache NetBeans for working with Jigsaw,
JShell, and JLink, which are all part of JDK 9. However, none of the
NetBeans modules that provide support to NetBeans IDE for these features
are required to compile against JDK 9, in fact, building on JDK 8 is
required. The modules providing support for these JDK features do not
themselves need to be built on the JDK that provides them.

So, I'd rather see a concrete rather than a hypothetical case (i.e., "What
if some bla bla bla") of why NetBeans itself would need to be built on a
JDK other than JDK 8.

Gj



>
> Scott
>
>
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Re: JDK requirements for building NB

[Jan Lahoda]

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 9:48 PM, Matthias Bläsing  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Am Dienstag, den 21.08.2018, 12:41 -0700 schrieb Chuck Davis:
> > Quite right and eloquently put, Scott.
> >
> > If people don't want the feature-set of JDK9 continue using NB8.2.  For
> > those of us who want the feature-set (in particular HTTPClient) of JDK11
> we
> > need NB11 sooner rather than later.  We need it to work with the
> OpenJFX11
> > modules in Maven central (which NB9 does not do) the day OpenJDK hits
> 11GA.
> >
> > Thank you, Scott!!
>
> I won't put time into describing, why I think backwards compatibility
> is necessary. If the same energy, that people put into saying "Netbeans
> must build on JDK11!!1", would be spend to research a way
> to create a JDK 8+11 compatible build, this whole discussion would be
> unnessary.
>

+1!

BTW, I just created a NB Platform application, set my build of JDK 12
(which is my runtime platform for my NB IDE), as the platform for the
application, and ran that - seems to build and run (there are some rough
edges in the editor, though). So it seems that it is possible to create at
least some NB applications using JDK 9+.

What might be more complex is a NB Platform application that enhances the
Java support, but I suspect most platform apps don't do that.

Regarding build of NetBeans itself, that is more complex (as, from the
reactions on this thread, it seems there are platform apps that need to
work on JDK 8; and also because of the size of the NB build). Are there any
volunteers to investigate what can be done here?

Thanks,
Jan


> Just my two cents
>
> Matthias, being happy, that his employer finally got Java 8 into
> production...
>
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>
>
>
>

Re: JDK requirements for building NB

[Scott Palmer]

> On Aug 21, 2018, at 6:50 PM, Geertjan Wielenga 
>  wrote:
> 
> I could be wrong but I think there's a lot of confusion about what JDK
> support means in relation to Apache NetBeans.

Got it.  Using NetBeans 9+ to develop applications that require JDK 10 works 
now, and support for building projects for JDK 11+ will follow soon.

> The question of which JDK is used to build Apache NetBeans,
> currently JDK 8, is also a separate question.

Yes, but JDK 8 becomes an unsupported platform soon (unless you pay).  When 
that support ends in early 2019, I think it makes sense that NetBeans can be 
built with a supported JDK.

If it can still run on Java 8, that’s cool, but making that leap from 
pre-modules JDK 8 to post-modules JDK 9+ is a big step, and if backwards 
compatibility concerns hold things back I don’ see that as a benefit.

There may also be a desire to use newer JDK features for the development of 
NetBeans itself, or NetBeans modules.  What if some new JDK tooling (e.g. the 
upcoming jpackager that hopefully makes it into JDK 12) requires that the 
corresponding NetBeans module that supports it can compile against that version 
of the JDK?

Scott


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Re: JDK requirements for building NB

[Chuck Davis]

With enough work NB could be written in assembly and produce anything but
the burden to do it would not be worth the cost probably.  There is such a
huge architectural difference between JDK8 and JDK11 that to expect
developers to accommodate both is unrealistic -- at least is seems many
work-arounds will be required and put a lot of strain on developers for
very limited benefit.  But you are, of course, correct, with enough work
anything can be accomplished.

Yes, I realize any JDK can be used to compile something to byte code.  But
do you remember all the confusion, even on this list, about why NB9 had to
be compiled on JDK8?  It's far from intuitive.  I'm simple minded I know
but a ratio of 1:1 is a good thing to my simple mind.  NB9 for JDK9; NB11
for JDK11.  And synched with the LTS JDKs.

By the way, Gj, your link to the 100 points/7 silver bullets presentation
was awesome.  What a great presentation/presenter!



On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 3:37 PM Geertjan Wielenga
 wrote:

>
> Do you understand that Apache NetBeans can provide features for JDK 8, 9,
> 10, 11, and 12, all at the same time?
>
> Do you also understand that whether or not NetBeans provides features for
> working with a particular JDK is a completely different question to which
> JDK is needed to build the sources of Apache NetBeans?
>
> Gj
>
>
>

Re: JDK requirements for building NB

[Geertjan Wielenga]

I could be wrong but I think there's a lot of confusion about what JDK
support means in relation to Apache NetBeans.

Here's the tentative release cycle:

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Apache+NetBeans+Release+Roadmap

In the upcoming release of Apache NetBeans, scheduled for November, Apache
NetBeans is scheduled to run on JDK 11 and provide features that relate to
JDK 11.

With each quarterly release, the tentative plan is to ensure that any new
releases of the JDK will be supported by the release that is released
during the same time period, i.e., if/when JDK 12 is released in time for
the February 2019 release of Apache NetBeans, then Apache NetBeans will
support you by being able to run on JDK 12 and by providing enhancements,
e.g., Java editor enhancements, for example, to support the JDK 12 release.

The question of release numbering of Apache NetBeans is a separate
question. The question of which JDK is used to build Apache NetBeans,
currently JDK 8, is also a separate question.

Thanks,

Gj

On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 12:45 AM, Will Hartung 
wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 12:48 PM, Matthias Bläsing <
> mblaes...@doppel-helix.eu> wrote:
>
> > Matthias, being happy, that his employer finally got Java 8 into
> > production...
> >
>
> Seriously, welcome to my world. And we're still not 100%, we still have
> stuff running on Glassfish 3, for example.
>
> With a new JDK coming out every 6 months, I think it will be resource
> intensive enough to get the IDE to support the prevailing JDK features,
> much less having to update the platform to build and run on it. Tying the
> platform to the LTS releases (whatever "LTS release" ends up truly meaning,
> if anything) should lessen that burden on the NB team, simply due to lower
> frequency.
>
> With JDK 11 on the horizon, and being flagged as ostensibly an LTS, it
> would make sense to jump up, try to catch up, and strive that NB 9+
> (whatever THAT turns out to be) meets and greets JDK 11 as a first class
> citizen.
>
> If someone wants to track the 6 month JDK cycle, that's all well and good,
> but if bugs to the platform aren't being back ported, and only available on
> JDKs that users aren't using, its a disincentive for them to adopt it in
> the first place. You can see a company trying to adopt the NB platform and
> barely even getting a real project off the ground in 6 months, much less
> then having to catch up and change the JDK to keep up in the middle of
> their project. That time to catch up, retest, fix new issues, etc. is a
> drag on the overall project. That's why that stuff doesn't get done today,
> now. Would you rather spend the time on New Feature, or adopting a new
> underlying runtime that offers no visible New Features. All that time for
> the same CRUD screens.
>
> The entire point of the LTS is that they're something that companies can
> rely and plan around. I don't want to call the interim release "stable
> betas", but rather previews of things to come in the next LTS.
>
> Obviously, JDK adoption should not be arduous. But the JDK is moving REALLY
> fast right now, with engine changes, the divestiture of capabilities, etc.
>
> All that logic "they can just use the previous versions" applies to this
> team too. We can just "use the previous version" as it can have less of a
> ripple affect. Everything this team does affects the many users, which can
> make decisions such as these even more important.
>
> Regards,
>
> Will Hartung
>

Re: JDK requirements for building NB

[Will Hartung]

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 12:48 PM, Matthias Bläsing <
mblaes...@doppel-helix.eu> wrote:

> Matthias, being happy, that his employer finally got Java 8 into
> production...
>

Seriously, welcome to my world. And we're still not 100%, we still have
stuff running on Glassfish 3, for example.

With a new JDK coming out every 6 months, I think it will be resource
intensive enough to get the IDE to support the prevailing JDK features,
much less having to update the platform to build and run on it. Tying the
platform to the LTS releases (whatever "LTS release" ends up truly meaning,
if anything) should lessen that burden on the NB team, simply due to lower
frequency.

With JDK 11 on the horizon, and being flagged as ostensibly an LTS, it
would make sense to jump up, try to catch up, and strive that NB 9+
(whatever THAT turns out to be) meets and greets JDK 11 as a first class
citizen.

If someone wants to track the 6 month JDK cycle, that's all well and good,
but if bugs to the platform aren't being back ported, and only available on
JDKs that users aren't using, its a disincentive for them to adopt it in
the first place. You can see a company trying to adopt the NB platform and
barely even getting a real project off the ground in 6 months, much less
then having to catch up and change the JDK to keep up in the middle of
their project. That time to catch up, retest, fix new issues, etc. is a
drag on the overall project. That's why that stuff doesn't get done today,
now. Would you rather spend the time on New Feature, or adopting a new
underlying runtime that offers no visible New Features. All that time for
the same CRUD screens.

The entire point of the LTS is that they're something that companies can
rely and plan around. I don't want to call the interim release "stable
betas", but rather previews of things to come in the next LTS.

Obviously, JDK adoption should not be arduous. But the JDK is moving REALLY
fast right now, with engine changes, the divestiture of capabilities, etc.

All that logic "they can just use the previous versions" applies to this
team too. We can just "use the previous version" as it can have less of a
ripple affect. Everything this team does affects the many users, which can
make decisions such as these even more important.

Regards,

Will Hartung

Re: JDK requirements for building NB

[Geertjan Wielenga]

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 9:41 PM, Chuck Davis  wrote:

> Quite right and eloquently put, Scott.
>
> If people don't want the feature-set of JDK9 continue using NB8.2.  For
> those of us who want the feature-set (in particular HTTPClient) of JDK11 we
> need NB11 sooner rather than later.  We need it to work with the OpenJFX11
> modules in Maven central (which NB9 does not do) the day OpenJDK hits 11GA.
>


Here are the plans for JDK 11 support in the upcoming release of Apache
NetBeans:

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=75971005

For other JDK 11 related features that need to be supported, can you create
issues and very specifically definer what is needed?

Do you understand that Apache NetBeans can provide features for JDK 8, 9,
10, 11, and 12, all at the same time?

Do you also understand that whether or not NetBeans provides features for
working with a particular JDK is a completely different question to which
JDK is needed to build the sources of Apache NetBeans?

Gj






>
> Thank you, Scott!!
>
> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 11:11 AM Scott Palmer  wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Yes, and I’m saying the latest Netbeans requiring the latest released JDK
> > to build is a good thing.  It means the latest Java features can be used.
> > If you don’t want or need them, use an older NetBeans platform - don’t
> hold
> > everyone else back.
> >
> > Scott
> > -
> > T
> >
>

Re: JDK requirements for building NB

[Matthias Bläsing]

Hi,

Am Dienstag, den 21.08.2018, 12:41 -0700 schrieb Chuck Davis:
> Quite right and eloquently put, Scott.
> 
> If people don't want the feature-set of JDK9 continue using NB8.2.  For
> those of us who want the feature-set (in particular HTTPClient) of JDK11 we
> need NB11 sooner rather than later.  We need it to work with the OpenJFX11
> modules in Maven central (which NB9 does not do) the day OpenJDK hits 11GA.
> 
> Thank you, Scott!!

I won't put time into describing, why I think backwards compatibility
is necessary. If the same energy, that people put into saying "Netbeans
must build on JDK11!!1", would be spend to research a way
to create a JDK 8+11 compatible build, this whole discussion would be
unnessary.

Just my two cents

Matthias, being happy, that his employer finally got Java 8 into
production...

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Re: JDK requirements for building NB

[Chuck Davis]

Quite right and eloquently put, Scott.

If people don't want the feature-set of JDK9 continue using NB8.2.  For
those of us who want the feature-set (in particular HTTPClient) of JDK11 we
need NB11 sooner rather than later.  We need it to work with the OpenJFX11
modules in Maven central (which NB9 does not do) the day OpenJDK hits 11GA.

Thank you, Scott!!

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 11:11 AM Scott Palmer  wrote:

>
>
> Yes, and I’m saying the latest Netbeans requiring the latest released JDK
> to build is a good thing.  It means the latest Java features can be used.
> If you don’t want or need them, use an older NetBeans platform - don’t hold
> everyone else back.
>
> Scott
> -
> T
>

Re: JDK requirements for building NB

[Scott Palmer]

> On Aug 21, 2018, at 10:22 AM, Will Hartung  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 4:46 AM, Scott Palmer  wrote:
> 
>> This is not quite right. Anyone using the NB platform is not forced to
>> upgrade the platform they base their application on. The only thing that
>> happens is that the platform code base can hold them back as well from
>> building with new JDK features.
>> IMO the NB code base should support building on the latest released JDK
>> specifically because then it doesn’t hold others back that want to use new
>> Java features for their NB platform applications.
> 
> 
> But there's a difference between being able to be built on the latest JDK,
> and requiring the latest JDK to build/run.

Yes, and I’m saying the latest Netbeans requiring the latest released JDK to 
build is a good thing.  It means the latest Java features can be used.  If you 
don’t want or need them, use an older NetBeans platform - don’t hold everyone 
else back.

Scott
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Re: JDK requirements for building NB

[Neil C Smith]

On Tue, 21 Aug 2018 at 15:22, Will Hartung  wrote:
> But there's a difference between being able to be built on the latest JDK,
> and requiring the latest JDK to build/run.

+1

> Regarding the LTS, while there may not be a (free) release from Oracle,
> it's still a symbolic line in the sand of compatibility that I would assume
> that the OpenJDK versions would track. i.e. OpenJDK v11 would be compatible
> with Oracle JDK v11 (for some spectrum of compatibility), and continue to
> track and sync with each other over time. That is, and I don't know, but is
> there any expectation that OpenJDK is going to be using its own versioning
> scheme?

There is no *one* OpenJDK distinct from Oracle there though!  There
are just various organization stepping up to support and backport
fixes - eg. https://adoptopenjdk.net/support.html  I'm strongly
assuming there will be agreement on which releases count as LTS - my
"hoping" was mostly in jest, although it isn't entirely explicit.  And
hopefully Linux distros will be sensible about this too.

Best wishes,

Neil

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Re: JDK requirements for building NB

[Will Hartung]

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 4:46 AM, Scott Palmer  wrote:

> This is not quite right. Anyone using the NB platform is not forced to
> upgrade the platform they base their application on. The only thing that
> happens is that the platform code base can hold them back as well from
> building with new JDK features.
>  IMO the NB code base should support building on the latest released JDK
> specifically because then it doesn’t hold others back that want to use new
> Java features for their NB platform applications.


But there's a difference between being able to be built on the latest JDK,
and requiring the latest JDK to build/run.

Regarding the LTS, while there may not be a (free) release from Oracle,
it's still a symbolic line in the sand of compatibility that I would assume
that the OpenJDK versions would track. i.e. OpenJDK v11 would be compatible
with Oracle JDK v11 (for some spectrum of compatibility), and continue to
track and sync with each other over time. That is, and I don't know, but is
there any expectation that OpenJDK is going to be using its own versioning
scheme? If that's the case, then "supporting JDK vXXX" brings on a
completely different meaning if the implementations start to diverge.

Regards,

Will Hartung

Re: JDK requirements for building NB

[Scott Palmer]

The JDK required to run NB should be entirely independent of what JDK you can 
build apps for when using NB.

“...when NB starts to require a specific Java Version,
implicitly the NB PLATFORM will have the same requirements, and that "all
of a sudden" has impact on projects outside of NB proper.”

This is not quite right. Anyone using the NB platform is not forced to upgrade 
the platform they base their application on. The only thing that happens is 
that the platform code base can hold them back as well from building with new 
JDK features. 
 IMO the NB code base should support building on the latest released JDK 
specifically because then it doesn’t hold others back that want to use new Java 
features for their NB platform applications. 

Scott

> On Aug 21, 2018, at 6:05 AM, Neil C Smith  wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 at 18:39, Svata Dedic  wrote:
>> we / you should also consider, before dropping JDK8 as a runtime
>> platform, that applications that build ON TOP of NetBeans platform may
>> have a way conservative requirements than developers who strive to use
>> the bleeding technology edge.
> 
> Exactly!  My own first thoughts on this too, although also ...
> 
>> On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 at 22:24, Will Hartung  wrote:
>> As I understand it, the Powers That Be plan on anointing some versions of
>> Java as "Long Term Support", with the others being some kind of interim
>> Java.
>> 
>> The next version to offer LTS is, apparently, Java 11. The current LTS
>> version is Java 8.
> 
> AFAIK, there will be *no* free LTS from Oracle. And people like
> AdoptOpenJDK are currently committing to support both 8 and 11 until
> Sept 2022.  Rumours of Java 8 demise may be somewhat exaggerated! ;-)
> I doubt a lot of people are even going to consider migration until 11
> is out and the dust settles.
> 
> So, assuming (hoping!) the various OpenJDK vendors and Oracle offer
> the same versions as an LTS, maybe we should maintain a policy of
> working with at least current and previous LTS releases?
> 
> I think having a fully complete Apache-licensed NetBeans IDE and
> platform supporting Java 8 is still really important.
> 
> While I understand the original point of supporting people to move
> with the times, I think the actual argument behind this is also bogus.
> To encourage migration, surely tools need to be the first things to
> support a new LTS and *the last things to stop supporting* the old
> one!  Needing two toolsets is just one more barrier to adoption.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Neil
> 
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> 
> 
> 

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Re: JDK requirements for building NB

[Neil C Smith]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 at 18:39, Svata Dedic  wrote:
> we / you should also consider, before dropping JDK8 as a runtime
> platform, that applications that build ON TOP of NetBeans platform may
> have a way conservative requirements than developers who strive to use
> the bleeding technology edge.

Exactly!  My own first thoughts on this too, although also ...

On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 at 22:24, Will Hartung  wrote:
> As I understand it, the Powers That Be plan on anointing some versions of
> Java as "Long Term Support", with the others being some kind of interim
> Java.
>
> The next version to offer LTS is, apparently, Java 11. The current LTS
> version is Java 8.

AFAIK, there will be *no* free LTS from Oracle. And people like
AdoptOpenJDK are currently committing to support both 8 and 11 until
Sept 2022.  Rumours of Java 8 demise may be somewhat exaggerated! ;-)
I doubt a lot of people are even going to consider migration until 11
is out and the dust settles.

So, assuming (hoping!) the various OpenJDK vendors and Oracle offer
the same versions as an LTS, maybe we should maintain a policy of
working with at least current and previous LTS releases?

I think having a fully complete Apache-licensed NetBeans IDE and
platform supporting Java 8 is still really important.

While I understand the original point of supporting people to move
with the times, I think the actual argument behind this is also bogus.
To encourage migration, surely tools need to be the first things to
support a new LTS and *the last things to stop supporting* the old
one!  Needing two toolsets is just one more barrier to adoption.

Best wishes,

Neil

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Re: JDK requirements for building NB

[Geertjan Wielenga]

Here's another perspective: the OracleLabs organization works on GraalVM (
http://graalvm.org
),
which is not only the fastest virtual machine on the planet, but also the
most toolable one. There are two tools built on top NetBeans in support of
GraalVM: VisualVM and Ideal Graph Visualizer. When you download GraalVM,
you also download the tools and the tools are supposed to run on the same
GraalVM.

While OracleLabs supports early adopters and makes sure the GraalVM
technologies work with latest JDK - e.g. JDK11, the aim is also to enlarge
the range of users by supporting JDK8. There are still many customers that
aren't ready to switch to the latest JDK and so they stick with older
versions. That is why the official download of GraalVM is based on JDK8.

Should the Apache NetBeans project drop support for JDK8, the OracleLabs
contributors will no longer be able to contribute to its development.

To avoid such an unfortunate situation, it would make sense for the
community to continue to support the building and running of NetBeans on
top of JDK8.

Thanks,

Gj




On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 7:30 AM, Jan Lahoda  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> While it might be OK for the Java support to require e.g. (runtime) JDK 11
> (but I am not saying it is OK), I suspect it may not be so OK yet for e.g.
> the PHP IDE, or platform applications, as Svata says.
>
> Also changing the build scripts to support JDK 9+ is not a trivial task (it
> is surely not a single line in Travis configuration, or something like
> that). Like, for example, I believe there are still compilations in NB that
> use -source < 6, which is not supported by JDK 9. Most, but not all, of
> them should be easy to get rid of, but that's a work someone needs to do.
>
> So, to me personally, if someone can propose a patch that would build NB on
> JDK 10/11 using --release 8 (not allowing JDK 8 for build at all, building
> just with JDK 10/11, to keep things simple), that'd be great, but I myself
> may not get to that in a near future. For me, it is more acceptable to say
> that folks working on/building NetBeans must use a specific JDK, or a
> limited ranged of JDKs, than to say that the users must use a specific JDK.
>
> I would not see supporting JDK 8 as a runtime platform to be "backward
> minded". It feels more responsible to not drop support for an older JDK
> without a very good reason.
>
> Jan
>
> On Sun, Aug 19, 2018 at 9:15 PM, William L. Thomson Jr.  >
> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 19 Aug 2018 15:07:38 -0400
> > "William L. Thomson Jr."  wrote:
> >
> > > This came up on PR-572
> > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-netbeans/pull/572
> >
> > Since the PR is locked I cannot comment. The ONLY reason such change
> > breaks is the Travis-CI build is run under 1.8 ONLY[1]. It seems other
> > JDKs available under Travis are being ignored[2]. Such that if NB build
> > on Travis used JDK 11 it would fail as well... It may also fail with
> > JDK 9 or JDK 10. Not sure why Travis builds do not test under those
> > newer JDKs and only builds using Java 8.
> >
> > JDK 11 release is next month. JDK 10 is current. If there was a JDK 10
> > job on Travis. That PR fix would likely have passed. Given it is a
> > valid change under JDK 10, as well as 11.
> >
> > Its this holding onto legacy Java 8. We want more contributions to
> > support an arch the contributor will never use or run. My interest is
> > in current JDK and newer, not older. I submit changes for newer. But
> > they are held back, because such changes MUST support older than newer.
> >
> > Is Netbeans forward or backward minded?
> >
> > 1. https://travis-ci.org/apache/incubator-netbeans/jobs/387221179/config
> > 2. https://docs.travis-ci.com/user/languages/java/#using-
> java-10-and-later
> >
> >
> > --
> > William L. Thomson Jr.
> >
>

Re: JDK requirements for building NB

[Jan Lahoda]

Hi,

While it might be OK for the Java support to require e.g. (runtime) JDK 11
(but I am not saying it is OK), I suspect it may not be so OK yet for e.g.
the PHP IDE, or platform applications, as Svata says.

Also changing the build scripts to support JDK 9+ is not a trivial task (it
is surely not a single line in Travis configuration, or something like
that). Like, for example, I believe there are still compilations in NB that
use -source < 6, which is not supported by JDK 9. Most, but not all, of
them should be easy to get rid of, but that's a work someone needs to do.

So, to me personally, if someone can propose a patch that would build NB on
JDK 10/11 using --release 8 (not allowing JDK 8 for build at all, building
just with JDK 10/11, to keep things simple), that'd be great, but I myself
may not get to that in a near future. For me, it is more acceptable to say
that folks working on/building NetBeans must use a specific JDK, or a
limited ranged of JDKs, than to say that the users must use a specific JDK.

I would not see supporting JDK 8 as a runtime platform to be "backward
minded". It feels more responsible to not drop support for an older JDK
without a very good reason.

Jan

On Sun, Aug 19, 2018 at 9:15 PM, William L. Thomson Jr. 
wrote:

> On Sun, 19 Aug 2018 15:07:38 -0400
> "William L. Thomson Jr."  wrote:
>
> > This came up on PR-572
> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-netbeans/pull/572
>
> Since the PR is locked I cannot comment. The ONLY reason such change
> breaks is the Travis-CI build is run under 1.8 ONLY[1]. It seems other
> JDKs available under Travis are being ignored[2]. Such that if NB build
> on Travis used JDK 11 it would fail as well... It may also fail with
> JDK 9 or JDK 10. Not sure why Travis builds do not test under those
> newer JDKs and only builds using Java 8.
>
> JDK 11 release is next month. JDK 10 is current. If there was a JDK 10
> job on Travis. That PR fix would likely have passed. Given it is a
> valid change under JDK 10, as well as 11.
>
> Its this holding onto legacy Java 8. We want more contributions to
> support an arch the contributor will never use or run. My interest is
> in current JDK and newer, not older. I submit changes for newer. But
> they are held back, because such changes MUST support older than newer.
>
> Is Netbeans forward or backward minded?
>
> 1. https://travis-ci.org/apache/incubator-netbeans/jobs/387221179/config
> 2. https://docs.travis-ci.com/user/languages/java/#using-java-10-and-later
>
>
> --
> William L. Thomson Jr.
>

Re: JDK requirements for building NB

[Will Hartung]

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 10:38 AM, Svata Dedic 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> we / you should also consider, before dropping JDK8 as a runtime platform,
> that applications that build ON TOP of NetBeans platform may have a way
> conservative requirements than developers who strive to use the bleeding
> technology edge.
>
> The changes made in JDK9 (the module system, reflection restrictions etc)
> are so disruptive that dropping JDK8 from platform (+ java) clusters may
> disqualify NetBeans as an application platform of choice.
>

As I understand it, the Powers That Be plan on anointing some versions of
Java as "Long Term Support", with the others being some kind of interim
Java.

The next version to offer LTS is, apparently, Java 11. The current LTS
version is Java 8.

If you want to hook NB to a particular Java version, an LTS version would
be the best choice (IMHO).

As mentioned above, when NB starts to require a specific Java Version,
implicitly the NB PLATFORM will have the same requirements, and that "all
of a sudden" has impact on projects outside of NB proper.

NB should certainly support BUILDING projects on the latest and greatest
Java versions, but that's different from the runtime requirements of NB
itself.

It would be NICE if NB CAN run on the latest Java Version, but, IMHO, it's
not worth breaking changes if an older Java Binary does not run on a
current Java that is not LTS.

Since the LTS versions are supposed to be 3 years apart, that gives NB
breathing room. Trying to keep up with Java versions arriving every 6mos to
a year is just crazy make work, time which this team does not have.

Finally, the "well folks running old stuff can run old versions" only goes
so far. For an internet that has infinite memory, it's pretty amazing how
truly fragmented the Java world is. The destruction of java.net certainly
didn't help, but even Maven doesn't have older artifacts any more. There's
a lot of legacy (and not even THAT legacy, 5 years..) code that simply can
not be built any more as they relied on the distributed build model of
maven with the false promise that The Internet would keep things around
forever.

When netbeans.org dies, is Apache going to host NB 6, 7, or 8 artifacts
(much less the earlier artifacts)?

So, it's important (I think) that a notion of backward compatibility is
given some measure of priority, since folks do rely on these projects for
their work.

If the perception is update early, update often, and keep up to date.
Forcing users to stay on the wavefront of change, then in some circles the
popularity of the platform will drop. "keeping up" takes time and effort
from everyone. Time folks might rather put in to enhancing their projects
or fixing their own bugs instead of time taken to just keep along with the
projects they use.

"NB just dropped an update, there's goes 2 sprints of work to catch back
up".

Regards,

Will Hartung

Re: JDK requirements for building NB

[Chuck Davis]

And this brings us back the the whole question of how to number NB releases.

In my opinion the NB version should reflect the JDK it supports.  NB is a
Java application that just happens to provide facilities for people to
write plug-ins who want to do non-Java stuff like c/c++, Python, PHP,
ecmascript, etc. etc.  Those plugins can be numbered any way the author
wants to number them.

I assume NB9 will be forked as the starting point for NB11.  That does not
imply that NB9 will go away or cease to exist.  Anybody who wants to
back-port features for NB9 may do so but NB11 should be an advertisement
that it will build on and develop for the JDK11 feature-set and VM.  There
is no reason NB versioning needs to reflect non-Java plug-in versioning.
And there should be no assumption that a plug-in for NB9 will build or run
on NB11.  As the Java feature-set expands/contracts moving forward,
breakage is bound to happen and backward compatibility will have to break
as well.  The feature-set differences between 8 and 9 are a very good
example.  The new HTTPClient class in 11 is another very good example.  I
can't tell at a glance if something called NB9 or NB2018.3 or will
develop or build on the current JDK if the versioning does not make it
clear.  On the other hand, if NB9.2 includes features from JDK12 that do
not break backward compatibility before NB12 is released what's not to like?

Perhaps I'm too naive about git but from what I've read this seems like a
relatively simple and intuitive way to move NB forward as the pace of Java
development increases and versions move forward.  I've read all the other
positions in the previous thread and none of them is convincing in my
opinion.  Releasing often is good and version numbers should have meaning.


On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 10:39 AM Svata Dedic 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> we / you should also consider, before dropping JDK8 as a runtime
> platform, that applications that build ON TOP of NetBeans platform may
> have a way conservative requirements than developers who strive to use
> the bleeding technology edge.
>
>
>
>

Re: JDK requirements for building NB

[Svata Dedic]

Hi,

we / you should also consider, before dropping JDK8 as a runtime 
platform, that applications that build ON TOP of NetBeans platform may 
have a way conservative requirements than developers who strive to use 
the bleeding technology edge.


The changes made in JDK9 (the module system, reflection restrictions 
etc) are so disruptive that dropping JDK8 from platform (+ java) 
clusters may disqualify NetBeans as an application platform of choice.


My 2 cents,
-Svata

Dne 20.8.2018 v 19:05 Geertjan Wielenga napsal(a):

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 6:03 PM, William L. Thomson Jr. 
wrote:


On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 07:38:10 +0200
Geertjan Wielenga  wrote:



Also, I think before we discuss moving away from JDK 8 altogether, we
need to be 100% sure that the support for the later JDKs is really
perfect, i.e., that it really and actually completely works.


I thought that was the idea behind NB 9.0. Otherwise if NB 9.0 is just
more of Java 8 and does not fully support say 9/10, and 11 next month.
Not sure what the point of a 9.0 release




Because it supports working with JDK 9 and 10:

https://netbeans.apache.org/download/nb90/index.html

Gj





was rather than 8.3. Or even a
8.5, which is usually used for things between JDK versions.

Otherwise I do fully agree there is solid support for newer JDKs before
moving away from 8. Happy to help where I can!

--
William L. Thomson Jr.






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Re: JDK requirements for building NB

[Geertjan Wielenga]

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 6:03 PM, William L. Thomson Jr. 
wrote:

> On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 07:38:10 +0200
> Geertjan Wielenga  wrote:
>
>
> > Also, I think before we discuss moving away from JDK 8 altogether, we
> > need to be 100% sure that the support for the later JDKs is really
> > perfect, i.e., that it really and actually completely works.
>
> I thought that was the idea behind NB 9.0. Otherwise if NB 9.0 is just
> more of Java 8 and does not fully support say 9/10, and 11 next month.
> Not sure what the point of a 9.0 release



Because it supports working with JDK 9 and 10:

https://netbeans.apache.org/download/nb90/index.html

Gj




> was rather than 8.3. Or even a
> 8.5, which is usually used for things between JDK versions.
>
> Otherwise I do fully agree there is solid support for newer JDKs before
> moving away from 8. Happy to help where I can!
>
> --
> William L. Thomson Jr.
>

Re: JDK requirements for building NB

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 07:38:10 +0200
Geertjan Wielenga  wrote:

> We need to be clear about whether this is about building on a
> particular JDK or running on a particular JDK.

I am mostly interested with building. Though I tend to run on the same
JDK I used for building.

In theory it should be possible to use newer JDK for build and run
under older via --release. Providing no modules need modules or exports.
Since --release cannot be combined with --add-modules or --add-exports.

Anything not needing modules or exports in the JDK or outside. Should
be possible to build on newer JDK setting --release for running on
an older JDK. I have not had any issues with --release thus far.

> Also, I think before we discuss moving away from JDK 8 altogether, we
> need to be 100% sure that the support for the later JDKs is really
> perfect, i.e., that it really and actually completely works.

I thought that was the idea behind NB 9.0. Otherwise if NB 9.0 is just
more of Java 8 and does not fully support say 9/10, and 11 next month.
Not sure what the point of a 9.0 release was rather than 8.3. Or even a
8.5, which is usually used for things between JDK versions.

Otherwise I do fully agree there is solid support for newer JDKs before
moving away from 8. Happy to help where I can!

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.


pgpq8i0e9jD6r.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: JDK requirements for building NB

[Geertjan Wielenga]

We need to be clear about whether this is about building on a particular
JDK or running on a particular JDK.

Also, I think before we discuss moving away from JDK 8 altogether, we need
to be 100% sure that the support for the later JDKs is really perfect,
i.e., that it really and actually completely works.

Gj


On Sun, Aug 19, 2018 at 9:15 PM, William L. Thomson Jr. 
wrote:

> On Sun, 19 Aug 2018 15:07:38 -0400
> "William L. Thomson Jr."  wrote:
>
> > This came up on PR-572
> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-netbeans/pull/572
>
> Since the PR is locked I cannot comment. The ONLY reason such change
> breaks is the Travis-CI build is run under 1.8 ONLY[1]. It seems other
> JDKs available under Travis are being ignored[2]. Such that if NB build
> on Travis used JDK 11 it would fail as well... It may also fail with
> JDK 9 or JDK 10. Not sure why Travis builds do not test under those
> newer JDKs and only builds using Java 8.
>
> JDK 11 release is next month. JDK 10 is current. If there was a JDK 10
> job on Travis. That PR fix would likely have passed. Given it is a
> valid change under JDK 10, as well as 11.
>
> Its this holding onto legacy Java 8. We want more contributions to
> support an arch the contributor will never use or run. My interest is
> in current JDK and newer, not older. I submit changes for newer. But
> they are held back, because such changes MUST support older than newer.
>
> Is Netbeans forward or backward minded?
>
> 1. https://travis-ci.org/apache/incubator-netbeans/jobs/387221179/config
> 2. https://docs.travis-ci.com/user/languages/java/#using-java-10-and-later
>
>
> --
> William L. Thomson Jr.
>

Re: JDK requirements for building NB

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2018 15:07:38 -0400
"William L. Thomson Jr."  wrote:

> This came up on PR-572
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-netbeans/pull/572

Since the PR is locked I cannot comment. The ONLY reason such change
breaks is the Travis-CI build is run under 1.8 ONLY[1]. It seems other
JDKs available under Travis are being ignored[2]. Such that if NB build
on Travis used JDK 11 it would fail as well... It may also fail with
JDK 9 or JDK 10. Not sure why Travis builds do not test under those
newer JDKs and only builds using Java 8.

JDK 11 release is next month. JDK 10 is current. If there was a JDK 10
job on Travis. That PR fix would likely have passed. Given it is a
valid change under JDK 10, as well as 11.

Its this holding onto legacy Java 8. We want more contributions to
support an arch the contributor will never use or run. My interest is
in current JDK and newer, not older. I submit changes for newer. But
they are held back, because such changes MUST support older than newer.

Is Netbeans forward or backward minded?

1. https://travis-ci.org/apache/incubator-netbeans/jobs/387221179/config
2. https://docs.travis-ci.com/user/languages/java/#using-java-10-and-later


-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.


pgpHeipfOcB5Q.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

JDK requirements for building NB

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

This came up on PR-572
https://github.com/apache/incubator-netbeans/pull/572

As of JDK 11 there are changes in the JDK that make supporting and
building under older JDKs like Java 8 increasingly difficult. I am of
the opinion and mindset that at some point, The latest/current Netbeans
may only be able to build using the latest, current, or upcoming JDK.

That way Netbeans can build on a new JDK soon as it is released, rather
than afterward and playing catch up. It also means that it will not be
able to be built on older JDKs or run under them.

It seems at some point older JDKs will have to be dropped from the
supported JDKs to build and run Netbeans. It should not effect being
able to develop Java 8 applications within Netbeans, though it might.
It will be a lot of work to support both older and current/newer.

I am also of the mindset if someone needs to build or run Netbeans
under Java 8. Well there is Netbeans 8.x which can build, run, etc
under Java 8. Not sure why the newer release need be held back by older
JDKs. Or made such that it can support all. That creates a more work,
and maybe problems.

It is clear Java will be moving forward faster. I think part of
that adoption starts with the IDE. The longer Java 8 is supported, the
longer people will keep using it, and not move forward. Python 2.7
comes to mind in that event. I rather not see Java 8 become the Python
2.7, lasting way longer than ever intended. IDE requires a new JDK is
means of forcing others to move forward faster.

Anyway mostly for others to discuss. I have voiced my viewpoint on PR
and here. So enough from me on this topic :)

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.


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Description: OpenPGP digital signature