subject:"ConsoleKit and esound retirement"

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 18:35:23 +0100, Hans de Goede wrote:

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 03:49:23 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:

DJ Delorie wrote:
Disadvantage, if you ask me. First thing audacious did was spew
random errors to the screen and change my Firefox and emacs cursors.

So I suspect that Audacious started gnome-settings-daemon.

It doesn't do that when I use OpenBox instead of GNOME, so OpenBox
does not auto-spawn g-s-d.

Or you could fix the plugin to not auto-start the daemon so we don't get
blamed for Audacious bugs...

Actually after seeing this thread I was planning on sending a mail to
ask people how to fix this. I guess that dbus-activation causes
g-s-d to start when the audacious tries to talk to it.

What I checked in ~13 hours ago is this:

http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/cgit/audacious-plugins.git/commit/?id=55972c07f34e43db3b9e24ca4918ac5bd8a39a46

Reviews/feedback appreciated.
Preferably, I'd still like to see a test-case where g-s-d would be started
automatically. Chasing ghosts is not so funny.

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-15 Thread Hans de Goede

Hi,

On 02/15/2013 07:57 AM, Stef Walter wrote:

On 02/14/2013 06:35 PM, Hans de Goede wrote:

Hi,

On 02/14/2013 01:28 PM, Bastien Nocera wrote:

On Thu, 2013-02-14 at 10:53 +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote:

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 03:49:23 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:

DJ Delorie wrote:

Disadvantage, if you ask me. First thing audacious did was spew
random errors to the screen and change my Firefox and emacs cursors.

So I suspect that Audacious started gnome-settings-daemon.

It doesn't do that when I use OpenBox instead of GNOME, so OpenBox
does not auto-spawn g-s-d.

Or you could fix the plugin to not auto-start the daemon so we don't get
blamed for Audacious bugs...

Actually after seeing this thread I was planning on sending a mail to
ask people how to fix this. I guess that dbus-activation causes
g-s-d to start when the audacious tries to talk to it.

Nothing fancy:

http://developer.gnome.org/gio/unstable/GDBusConnection.html#GDBusCallFlags

http://dbus.freedesktop.org/doc/api/html/group__DBusMessage.html#ga1596d92a8d604f954b48c7410263d2f0

Thanks, that is likely / hopefully exactly what we're looking for.

Regards,

Hans
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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 18:16:56 +0100, Lennart Poettering wrote:

 What I want is that yum distro-sync removes the package eventually.

Then it will need an Obsoletes tag somewhere else to get rid of any
installed CK packages.

yum distro-sync doesn't remove orphans. It only upgrades/downgrades
packages as necessary to match what's in the repos.

For an up-to-date installation, package-cleanup --orphans and
yum list extras show which installed packages are not available in
any repo. Users would need to uninstall them manually.

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Pulseaudio and S/PDIF [was Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement]

2013-02-15 Thread DJ Delorie


(subject changed, please strip the [was...] when replying)

 On 13/02/13 10:15 AM, DJ Delorie wrote:
  (well, more like crap, since I still haven't figured out how to
  get pulseaudio to use my digital audio outputs).
 
 Really? It's not that hard. It's either a device or a profile right on 
 the very first tab of GNOME sound properties. If you're using 
 pavucontrol, devices are on the 'Output Devices' tab, profiles are on 
 the 'Configuration' tab. It's rather easier than doing the same thing 
 with ALSA, really.

I know all about those.  I've tried them all.  I've gone through all
the online discussions about how to get digital outputs to work with
pulseaudio.  I've hacked at the config files and tried to trace the
operation.  I've been doing this with every update since pulseaudio
was introduced, and they're all clean installs, not upgrades.  It
worked just fine with ALSA.  I've even run GNOME sound properties,
despite not running a GNOME desktop.  I haven't yet tried F18 though,
because I don't yet have the spare days it takes to do that.

It just doesn't work.

I know the hardware works, because XBMC uses the digital output just
fine (and sounds seriously better).  The motherboard is a Gigabyte
GA-X58A-UD3R although I do have an HDMI-compatible video card (and
yes, I know you have to disable audio on that, the video card is much
more recent than my PA woes).

00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 82801JI (ICH10 Family) HD Audio 
Controller
03:00.1 Audio device: ATI Technologies Inc Barts HDMI Audio [Radeon HD 6800 
Series]
07:00.1 Multimedia controller: Brooktree Corporation Bt878 Audio Capture (rev 
02)
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gnome-settings-daemon (was: Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement)

On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 08:13:32 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:

  Could you tell me a test environment where auto-starting the daemon is
  reproducible? Then I might take a look at trying to avoid it.
 
 It should be auto-started when your app pokes at the not-yet-spawned
 well-known D-Bus name.

There's an error upon trying to talk to it:

  The name org.gnome.SettingsDaemon was not provided by any .service files

It seems something wants to start it but couldn't without the .service
file.

I've also tried Fedora 17 where g-s-d is not auto-started either.
I've also tried Fedora 18 _without_ GDM but with startx and fvwm.
Always the same error message.

  As pointed out above, with Openbox the daemon is not started automatically
  when starting Audacious. I'm stuck there. The puzzle is incomplete.
 
 Is there a session D-Bus running in your session? I don't know how it
 could not start.

At the bottom of the message you replied to:
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2013-February/178617.html

$ ps ax|grep dbus
  646 ?Ssl0:01 /bin/dbus-daemon --system --address=systemd: 
--nofork --nopidfile --systemd-activation
20236 ?S  0:00 dbus-launch --sh-syntax --exit-with-session
20237 ?Ssl0:00 /bin/dbus-daemon --fork --print-pid 4 
--print-address 6 --session
20443 ?Sl 0:00 /bin/dbus-daemon 
--config-file=/etc/at-spi2/accessibility.conf --nofork --print-address 3
20900 pts/0S+ 0:00 grep --color=auto dbus

 You should use dbus_g_proxy_new_for_name_owner() instead, which will
 round-trip and check whether the service exists.

Then my (preliminary) solution from yesterday can't be too bad, since
if there's no owner the plugin refuses to talk to dbus.

 Hopefully it should stop it from auto-spawning.

You said hopefully. ;-)   Yeah, a test environment would be good.

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Re: gnome-settings-daemon (was: Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement)

 Yeah, a test environment would be good.

Found a first one! EL6 with Openbox from EPEL. That one auto-spawns
g-s-d when running Audacious unpatched.

$ find /usr/share/dbus-1|grep Sett
/usr/share/dbus-1/services/org.gnome.SettingsDaemon.service
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Re: Pulseaudio and S/PDIF [was Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement]

2013-02-15 Thread Adam Williamson


On 15/02/13 10:22 AM, DJ Delorie wrote:


(subject changed, please strip the [was...] when replying)


On 13/02/13 10:15 AM, DJ Delorie wrote:

(well, more like crap, since I still haven't figured out how to
get pulseaudio to use my digital audio outputs).


Really? It's not that hard. It's either a device or a profile right on
the very first tab of GNOME sound properties. If you're using
pavucontrol, devices are on the 'Output Devices' tab, profiles are on
the 'Configuration' tab. It's rather easier than doing the same thing
with ALSA, really.


I know all about those.  I've tried them all.  I've gone through all
the online discussions about how to get digital outputs to work with
pulseaudio.  I've hacked at the config files and tried to trace the
operation.  I've been doing this with every update since pulseaudio
was introduced, and they're all clean installs, not upgrades.  It
worked just fine with ALSA.  I've even run GNOME sound properties,
despite not running a GNOME desktop.  I haven't yet tried F18 though,
because I don't yet have the spare days it takes to do that.

It just doesn't work.

I know the hardware works, because XBMC uses the digital output just
fine (and sounds seriously better).  The motherboard is a Gigabyte
GA-X58A-UD3R although I do have an HDMI-compatible video card (and
yes, I know you have to disable audio on that, the video card is much
more recent than my PA woes).

00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 82801JI (ICH10 Family) HD Audio 
Controller
03:00.1 Audio device: ATI Technologies Inc Barts HDMI Audio [Radeon HD 6800 
Series]
07:00.1 Multimedia controller: Brooktree Corporation Bt878 Audio Capture (rev 
02)


That's weird. Definitely just some kind of bug specific to your system, 
though, the normal PA experience with digital output is pretty simple. 
I've had no problem with it. You don't really need to disable any output 
sources in most cases, either (I haven't bothered disabling any of the 
umpteen sources that appear to exist on my system, I just pick the one I 
actually want to use, and it works, no problems at all). Do you have a 
bug report in?

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Re: Pulseaudio and S/PDIF [was Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement]

2013-02-15 Thread Peter Robinson

On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 6:22 PM, DJ Delorie d...@redhat.com wrote:

 (subject changed, please strip the [was...] when replying)

 On 13/02/13 10:15 AM, DJ Delorie wrote:
  (well, more like crap, since I still haven't figured out how to
  get pulseaudio to use my digital audio outputs).

 Really? It's not that hard. It's either a device or a profile right on
 the very first tab of GNOME sound properties. If you're using
 pavucontrol, devices are on the 'Output Devices' tab, profiles are on
 the 'Configuration' tab. It's rather easier than doing the same thing
 with ALSA, really.

 I know all about those.  I've tried them all.  I've gone through all
 the online discussions about how to get digital outputs to work with
 pulseaudio.  I've hacked at the config files and tried to trace the
 operation.  I've been doing this with every update since pulseaudio
 was introduced, and they're all clean installs, not upgrades.  It
 worked just fine with ALSA.  I've even run GNOME sound properties,
 despite not running a GNOME desktop.  I haven't yet tried F18 though,
 because I don't yet have the spare days it takes to do that.

 It just doesn't work.

It works just fine for me on F18 on media center box using a standard
optical cable.

Peter
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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-15 Thread Dan Mashal

On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 7:06 PM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at wrote:
 Dan Mashal wrote:
 I will look at switching MATE Desktop to KDM or MDM if necessary
 (which I kind of wanted to do from the start, not the hugest fan of
 LightDM as a user personally).

 As much as I like KDM, I don't think it'd be the optimal choice for the MATE
 spin due to its dependencies (Qt and kdelibs).

 Kevin Kofler

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Rex said the same thing, but I don't really care. It pulls in a few
extra KDE packages but it works like a charm.

Either way It's not that big of a deal, let's see what happens with
LightDM or MDM first. KDM would be a last resort.

Thanks,
Dan
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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-15 Thread Kevin Kofler

drago01 wrote:

 On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Michael Schwendt mschwe...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 18:16:56 +0100, Lennart Poettering wrote:

 What I want is that yum distro-sync removes the package eventually.

 Then it will need an Obsoletes tag somewhere else to get rid of any
 installed CK packages.
 
 We could / should add one to systemd.

We should only do that when ConsoleKit actually gets retired! As long as 
something still needs it, please DON'T Obsolete it!

Kevin Kofler

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-14 Thread Michael Schwendt

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 21:21:41 -0500, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:

 While audacious can be made to look similar to xmms, it is not xmms,

True, and it doesn't try to duplicate XMMS anyway. It had only started as
a fork of BMP. From its description:

| Historically, it started as a fork of Beep Media Player (BMP), which
| itself forked from XMMS.

With emphasis on historically -- so much has been rewritten. That's
good, because some of the inherited visualization code (especially for the
scaled skinned mode) was really ugly with lots of stack-smashing and other
forms of memory corruption.

 and indeed they are very different from each other. xmms (with ALSA)
 is the only player  that consistently worked for me with no problems
 for the last 11 years. 

Consider yourself lucky. ;)

 Moreover it uses the best (in my opinion) GTK
 version out there.
 
 If the esound or pulseaudio plugins are problematic, let us retire
 them. I don't think xmms will be used by other people than us fanboys,
 and I feel that we are fine with the ALSA output.

The xmms-pulse tickets are all closed/wontfix. It might still be possible
to copy fixes from Audacious' Pulse Audio output plugin (which had started
with the same code base), but it could be that touching XMMS will also be
necessary (with regard to saving/restoring volume levels).

If anyone thinks xmms-pulse works, oh well, keep it, but don't just keep
it because it still builds. I assume that Lennart Poettering, the (original)
author of that plug-in, could tell what's wrong with it nowadays.

 Anyhow it looks like spot was kind enough to pick it up, so no worries :)

Already long ago.

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-14 Thread Michael Schwendt

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 03:49:23 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:

 DJ Delorie wrote:
  Disadvantage, if you ask me.  First thing audacious did was spew
  random errors to the screen and change my Firefox and emacs cursors.
 
 So I suspect that Audacious started gnome-settings-daemon.

It doesn't do that when I use OpenBox instead of GNOME, so OpenBox
does not auto-spawn g-s-d.

However, one of its plug-ins talks to DBus (org.gnome.SettingsDaemon)
for GNOME media player keyboard shortcuts. That plug-in is enabled by
default and by request, and anyone not running a compatible environment
can easily switch it off in the preferences.

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-14 Thread Dan Mashal

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Lennart Poettering
mzerq...@0pointer.de wrote:
 On Thu, 14.02.13 04:02, Kevin Kofler (kevin.kof...@chello.at) wrote:

  (and as mentioned, exorcising CK from packages is rather simple usually,
  as in most cases you will just delete code, not add new code).

 I don't think that's true. As far as I know, LightDM relies on ConsoleKit
 for some essential functionality, and upstream has zero interest in systemd
 given that they're Ubuntu.

 Well, subscribing to systemd-devel for a while and asking a number of
 questions (which the lightdm upstream did) is hardly zero interest.

 So there is one person at Fedora / Red Hat who is trying to port it
 to systemd all alone, he's not done yet. I don't know what the state
 of the other affected packages is, but I assume there's also more to
 do than just disabling ConsoleKit support or it would have been
 already done (as we did for KDM long ago). For example, if a desktop
 (or even a display manager, like LightDM) wants to use ConsoleKit for
 shutdown/restart or, worse (in terms of porting effort), user
 switching, this all has to be ported to systemd, not just disabled.

 I agree that ConsoleKit needs to go away, but FIRST all packages using it
 must be ported away from it, THEN it can be retired.

 Well, that's a pity, but I guess the burden for this really should be
 carried by the lightdm folks then. So, lightdm folks, if you want to
 keep CK around, then you need to step up, and take it over.

 If I hear nothing but oh, oh, i think, oh, i think, then I will retire
 it next week.

 Lennart

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Lennart,

Not knowing too much about CK itself but out of concern for anyone
that uses CK (including myself) I will be happy to take over
ConsoleKit as the package maintainer for F19 if it means keeping it in
for 1 more release to maintain compatibility. F19 will be branched
shortly and we will have F20 rawhide shortly which we can completely
retire ConsoleKit with plenty of notice to package maintainers and
upstream developers.

If all goes well we might even be able to completely retire it in 19.

What you are saying is true. There is interest from LightDM folks to
support systemd.  However, as you know we move very fast here.

I will look at switching MATE Desktop to KDM or MDM if necessary
(which I kind of wanted to do from the start, not the hugest fan of
LightDM as a user personally).

I have already done work on looking in to packaging MDM (formerly
known as mate-display-manager). MDM is maintained by the folks at
Linux Mint and is a fork of GDM 2.3 (surprise!).

https://github.com/linuxmint/mdm


Thanks,
Dan
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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-14 Thread Bastien Nocera

On Thu, 2013-02-14 at 10:53 +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote:
 On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 03:49:23 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
 
  DJ Delorie wrote:
   Disadvantage, if you ask me.  First thing audacious did was spew
   random errors to the screen and change my Firefox and emacs cursors.
  
  So I suspect that Audacious started gnome-settings-daemon.
 
 It doesn't do that when I use OpenBox instead of GNOME, so OpenBox
 does not auto-spawn g-s-d.
 
 However, one of its plug-ins talks to DBus (org.gnome.SettingsDaemon)
 for GNOME media player keyboard shortcuts. That plug-in is enabled by
 default and by request, and anyone not running a compatible environment
 can easily switch it off in the preferences.

Or you could fix the plugin to not auto-start the daemon so we don't get
blamed for Audacious bugs...

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-14 Thread Brendan Jones


On 02/14/2013 04:26 AM, Bruno Wolff III wrote:

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 21:21:41 -0500,
   Orcan Ogetbil oget.fed...@gmail.com wrote:


If the esound or pulseaudio plugins are problematic, let us retire
them. I don't think xmms will be used by other people than us fanboys,
and I feel that we are fine with the ALSA output.

Anyhow it looks like spot was kind enough to pick it up, so no worries :)


I was still planning on retiring xmms. It has no upstream support. The
volume control has issues that I don't have time to figure out.


esound can be disabled at build time - please do not retire it just yet. 
I can take it on if need be.


Orcan, can you confirm that it still works? This is not working for me here.
http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=4971729


--- xmms.spec   2013-02-14 11:40:18.021243517 +0100
+++ /home/bsjones/rpmbuild/SPECS/xmms.spec	2013-02-14 11:39:42.377244852 
+0100

@@ -1,6 +1,6 @@
 Name:   xmms
 Version:1.2.11
-Release:17.20071117cvs%{?dist}
+Release:18.20071117cvs%{?dist}
 Epoch:  1
 Summary:The X MultiMedia System, a media player

@@ -70,14 +70,6 @@ Group:  System Environment/Libra
 %descriptionlibs
 The X MultiMedia System player engine and core plugins.

-%packageesd
-Summary:EsounD output plugin for XMMS
-Group:  System Environment/Libraries
-Requires:   %{name}-libs = %{epoch}:%{version}-%{release}
-
-%descriptionesd
-EsounD output plugin for the X MultiMedia System.
-
 %packagedevel
 Summary:Files required for XMMS plug-in development
 Group:  Development/Libraries
@@ -130,7 +122,8 @@ done
 --enable-texthack \
 --enable-ipv6 \
 --with-pic \
---disable-static
+--disable-static \
+--disable-esd
 # causes problems with dso linking
 #find . -name Makefile | xargs sed -i -e s/-lpthread//g # old libtool, 
x86_64

 make
@@ -212,10 +205,6 @@ update-desktop-database /dev/null || :
 %{_libdir}/xmms/Output/libdisk_writer.so
 %{_libdir}/xmms/Visualization/

-%files esd
-%defattr(-,root,root,-)
-%{_libdir}/xmms/Output/libesdout.so
-
 %files devel
 %defattr(-,root,root,-)
 %{_bindir}/xmms-config
@@ -226,6 +215,9 @@ update-desktop-database /dev/null || :


 %changelog
+* Thu Feb 14 2013 Brendan Jones brendan.jones...@gmail.com 
1.2.11-18.20071117cvs

+- Disable esound plugin
+
 * Sun Jul 22 2012 Fedora Release Engineering 
rel-...@lists.fedoraproject.org - 1:1.2.11-17.20071117cvs

 - Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_18_Mass_Rebuild






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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-14 Thread Miloslav Trmač

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 11:50 PM, Matthew Miller
mat...@fedoraproject.org wrote:
 On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 11:38:42PM +0100, Michael Scherer wrote:
 However, I have already removed consolekit on my F18 without any notable
 issue, so I do not think any breakage would be blocking. We have the
 whole F19 cycle to find and detect the few packages needing fix.

 Is this the kind of thing that would have been better done as a feature,
 similar to the Usermode Migration feature?

Per 
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Policy/Definitions#Definition_of_a_Feature
item #2, I think so.  It would also have ensured that the release note
won't be forgotten about.

(I can't really buy that
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ckremoval automatically
applies to F19 - and the feature page is rather unclear on whether
ConsoleKit was actually planned to be removed in F17.  It's really not
obvious from the feature page that it was only not installed by
default.)
Mirek
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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-14 Thread Lennart Poettering

On Thu, 14.02.13 03:26, Dan Mashal (dan.mas...@gmail.com) wrote:

 Not knowing too much about CK itself but out of concern for anyone
 that uses CK (including myself) I will be happy to take over
 ConsoleKit as the package maintainer for F19 if it means keeping it in
 for 1 more release to maintain compatibility. 

That's the spirit! I don't know too much about it, but I want to
maintain it...

But anyway, if that is indeed your wish, then I can hand it over. But
please, don't let this stuff bitrot forever. That would help nobody. If
you want to take care of it, fine, but please make sure the remaining
packages using it get their stuff updated and fixed...

What I want is that yum distro-sync removes the package eventually.

Anyway, I will release the Rawhide/F19 version now in pkgdb, please take
possession of it. It's yours now.

Lennart

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-14 Thread Hans de Goede


Hi,

On 02/14/2013 01:28 PM, Bastien Nocera wrote:

On Thu, 2013-02-14 at 10:53 +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote:

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 03:49:23 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:


DJ Delorie wrote:

Disadvantage, if you ask me.  First thing audacious did was spew
random errors to the screen and change my Firefox and emacs cursors.


So I suspect that Audacious started gnome-settings-daemon.


It doesn't do that when I use OpenBox instead of GNOME, so OpenBox
does not auto-spawn g-s-d.

However, one of its plug-ins talks to DBus (org.gnome.SettingsDaemon)
for GNOME media player keyboard shortcuts. That plug-in is enabled by
default and by request, and anyone not running a compatible environment
can easily switch it off in the preferences.


Or you could fix the plugin to not auto-start the daemon so we don't get
blamed for Audacious bugs...


Actually after seeing this thread I was planning on sending a mail to
ask people how to fix this. I guess that dbus-activation causes
g-s-d to start when the audacious tries to talk to it.

Rather then a less the friendly worded reply, it would be actually
helpful if you could tell us (pointer to a code example would be a
bonus) how to talk to a dbus interface without causing
dbus-activation to trigger.

Regards,

Hans
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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-14 Thread Bruno Wolff III


On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 13:33:27 +0100,
  Brendan Jones brendan.jones...@gmail.com wrote:

On 02/14/2013 04:26 AM, Bruno Wolff III wrote:


I was still planning on retiring xmms. It has no upstream support. The
volume control has issues that I don't have time to figure out.


esound can be disabled at build time - please do not retire it just 
yet. I can take it on if need be.


Do you want to apply as a co-maintainer to try it out?
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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-14 Thread Michael Schwendt

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 13:28:57 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:

 On Thu, 2013-02-14 at 10:53 +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote:
  On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 03:49:23 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
  
   DJ Delorie wrote:
Disadvantage, if you ask me.  First thing audacious did was spew
random errors to the screen and change my Firefox and emacs cursors.
   
   So I suspect that Audacious started gnome-settings-daemon.
  
  It doesn't do that when I use OpenBox instead of GNOME, so OpenBox
  does not auto-spawn g-s-d.
  
  However, one of its plug-ins talks to DBus (org.gnome.SettingsDaemon)
  for GNOME media player keyboard shortcuts. That plug-in is enabled by
  default and by request, and anyone not running a compatible environment
  can easily switch it off in the preferences.
 
 Or you could fix the plugin to not auto-start the daemon so we don't get
 blamed for Audacious bugs...

Could you tell me a test environment where auto-starting the daemon is
reproducible? Then I might take a look at trying to avoid it.
As pointed out above, with Openbox the daemon is not started automatically
when starting Audacious. I'm stuck there. The puzzle is incomplete.

The implementation of the plugin looks dubious in the bottom half of
gnome_remote_init() -- I dunno why it does the 2nd dbus_g_proxy_call --
 
https://github.com/audacious-media-player/audacious-plugins/blob/master/src/gnomeshortcuts/gnomeshortcuts.c
but other than that the only thing I could think of is dbus system
activation as there's nothing else that would start the daemon automatically.


$ ps ax|grep dbus
  646 ?Ssl0:01 /bin/dbus-daemon --system --address=systemd: 
--nofork --nopidfile --systemd-activation
20236 ?S  0:00 dbus-launch --sh-syntax --exit-with-session
20237 ?Ssl0:00 /bin/dbus-daemon --fork --print-pid 4 
--print-address 6 --session
20443 ?Sl 0:00 /bin/dbus-daemon 
--config-file=/etc/at-spi2/accessibility.conf --nofork --print-address 3
20900 pts/0S+ 0:00 grep --color=auto dbus


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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-14 Thread Brendan Jones


On 02/14/2013 06:16 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:

On Thu, 14.02.13 03:26, Dan Mashal (dan.mas...@gmail.com) wrote:


Not knowing too much about CK itself but out of concern for anyone
that uses CK (including myself) I will be happy to take over
ConsoleKit as the package maintainer for F19 if it means keeping it in
for 1 more release to maintain compatibility.


That's the spirit! I don't know too much about it, but I want to
maintain it...


Your arrogance never ceases to amaze.


But anyway, if that is indeed your wish, then I can hand it over. But
please, don't let this stuff bitrot forever. That would help nobody. If
you want to take care of it, fine, but please make sure the remaining
packages using it get their stuff updated and fixed...


I'm sure the new maintainer can handle the dependencies

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-13 Thread Hans de Goede


Hi,

On 02/13/2013 04:26 AM, DJ Delorie wrote:



Hmm, we still have xmms in the repo?


/me is very glad we still have xmms in the repo


Have you tried using Audacious ? You can set it to
classic mode, at which point it user experience is
identical to xmms.

With the advantage that it uses a modern toolkit, more
modern plumbing in various places, and it is actively
maintained both in Fedora and upstream.

Regards,

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-13 Thread Mat Booth

On 13 February 2013 09:21, Hans de Goede hdego...@redhat.com wrote:
 Hi,

 Have you tried using Audacious ? You can set it to
 classic mode, at which point it user experience is
 identical to xmms.

 With the advantage that it uses a modern toolkit, more
 modern plumbing in various places, and it is actively
 maintained both in Fedora and upstream.


That seems like exactly what should go in the dead.package file :-)

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

Please can we test this on rawhide first if anything? I'm pretty sure a lot
of thing are still ck dependant. We are still trying to catch up to systemd.

Just because some other distro did it doesn't mean we should do it too.

Dan

On Tuesday, February 12, 2013, Lennart Poettering wrote:

 Heya,

 since a while now logind has replaced CK in Fedora. I'd like to retire
 it entirely from the distribution now.

 Most deps on CK are gone. Holdouts are cdm, lightdm, lxsession,
 lxdm.

 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_remove_a_package_at_end_of_life

 This page doesn't say anything about retiring packages other still
 depend on...

 I am tempted to just retire CK ignoring the remaining dependencies, in
 the hope this will put the pressure on the folks involved to update
 their stuff...

 Getting rid of CK in those packages is dead simple BTW. Just disable it
 in the packages, but make sure pam_systemd is in the PAM stack for your
 greeter tool. It's basically about removing code, not about adding
 new code -- adding new code is only necessary if you want to improve
 your DM to handle multi-seat setups, too (which is a new feature of
 logind, not available in CK[1]). For details, see:

 http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/writing-display-managers

 I'd also like to retire esound finally. Currently, adplay, ayttm,
 dopewars, e16, gnome-libs, gnubg, lxdream, moon-buggy, spacechart,
 xarchon, xmms-esd still use it. esd of course has been deprecated and
 dead since many years, the packages which still use it really should
 wake up one day. So here, too, I'd just like to retire the package...

 Alternatively, somebody else can take these over, but honstely I'd
 rather see them removed than continue to bitrot in our repository...

 Lennart

 Footnotes:

 [1] If you are interested in adding proper multi-seat support to the DM
 of your choice, then we might be able to supply you with a free set of
 multi-seat hardware so that you can actually make it work. Ping me.

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-13 Thread Peter Robinson

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 10:44 AM, Dan Mashal dan.mas...@gmail.com wrote:
 Please can we test this on rawhide first if anything? I'm pretty sure a lot
 of thing are still ck dependant. We are still trying to catch up to systemd.

 Just because some other distro did it doesn't mean we should do it too.

Retirement of packages really only should ever happen on rawhide and I
believe that's what is being discussed.

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-13 Thread Jon Ciesla

On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 4:51 PM, Lennart Poettering mzerq...@0pointer.dewrote:

 On Tue, 12.02.13 13:52, Jon Ciesla (limburg...@gmail.com) wrote:

So to clarify, you're not actually retiring anything currently, just
expressing to the community that you'd like to and that we should
 work
toward making that possible?
  
   Well, I am just checking before I do something whether I can actually
 do
   it. That's all. By next week or so I will either have retired the
   packages (which I'd prefer) or somebody else took them over (which I'd
   prefer not to do, but which we can do too, if the retro-computing folks
   step up...)
 
  I'd prefer that you orphan them, and mail the list, ccing foo-owner for
  each dependency, that you're doing so.  That said, I maintain gnugb, and
  was able to easily remove the esound requirement.  If no one else wants
 to
  maintain esound, I will, even if only long enough to excise it from the
  packages that need it.

 OK, if that's what you want. I have now orphaned esound. Please take it
 over.

 Thanks, but it looks like someone beat me to it.

-J


 Lennart

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 20:47:50 -0600, Bruno Wolff III wrote:

 On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 00:26:28 +0100,
Lennart Poettering wrote:
 
 Hmm, we still have xmms in the repo? Both Debian and Gentoo killed it
 years ago... And I though those were the conservative distributions...
 
 I wanted to keep it in Fedora a little bit longer since I have been using it.
 But if it is causing problems, I won't stand in the way of dropping it.

It is causing problems: http://bugz.fedoraproject.org
Plus the several closed tickets (for xmms and xmms-pulse) that have not
been responded to by any package maintainer at all.

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 10:21:35 +0100, Hans de Goede wrote:

 Hi,
 
 On 02/13/2013 04:26 AM, DJ Delorie wrote:
 
  Hmm, we still have xmms in the repo?
 
  /me is very glad we still have xmms in the repo
 
 Have you tried using Audacious ? You can set it to
 classic mode, at which point it user experience is
 identical to xmms.

Except for the double-sized skinned mode, which is no longer available,
because nobody has interest in maintaining it. Occasionally, a user notices
that it's missing, but most users seem to like the GTK+ mode better
anyway. And for the future that could mean the Winamp classic mode will
be removed eventually, too.

If it must be a skinned interface like Winamp, there are other
players that support such skins, such as qmmp: yum info qmmp

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement


 Have you tried using Audacious ?

Just did.  No thanks.  /me uninstalls those five RPMs...

 You can set it to classic mode, at which point it user experience is
 identical to xmms.

No, it's not.  It's close enough to fool someone who doesn't use xmms
regularly, but it's different enough to really annoy those of us who
do.

Reminds me of a friend who hates anything gtk-on-windows because it
looks enough like windows that your instinct is to use your windows
techniques, but it's different enough to burn you every time you try
that.

 With the advantage that it uses a modern toolkit,

Disadvantage, if you ask me.  First thing audacious did was spew
random errors to the screen and change my Firefox and emacs cursors.
Then it ask which of the most recent minecraft jar files I wanted to
listen to.  When I finally located my *music* folder in its playlist
chooser, it refused to play my shoutcast streams, instead filling the
log window with more useless errors.  I managed to find one .wav it
would play, and it defaulted to 120% volume which made it sound like
crap (well, more like crap, since I still haven't figured out how to
get pulseaudio to use my digital audio outputs).

All this was before I figured out how to switch it to Winamp mode (not
xmms mode) but it doesn't support all the customization options that
xmms does, so it didn't look or act like xmms.  Plus, the playlist
management system is completely different.
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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 13:15:07 -0500, DJ Delorie wrote:

 First thing audacious did was spew
 random errors to the screen and change my Firefox and emacs cursors.

Interesting, but here it has never done that before.

 Then it ask which of the most recent minecraft jar files I wanted to
 listen to.  When I finally located my *music* folder in its playlist
 chooser, it refused to play my shoutcast streams, instead filling the
 log window with more useless errors.  I managed to find one .wav it
 would play, 

Odd. It can certainly play a lot more formats than just WAV, though for
MP3'n'stuff you need plug-in packages from RPM Fusion.

 and it defaulted to 120% volume which made it sound like
 crap (well, more like crap, since I still haven't figured out how to
 get pulseaudio to use my digital audio outputs).

It includes an ALSA output plug-in, too, but defaults to Pulse Audio.
Apparently, you've not used XMMS with xmms-pulse either (because that
one suffers from several volume related issues).

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement


 and change my Firefox and emacs cursors.

And now I have to restart my entire session to reset my gtk themes,
because of one rogue app.  Thanks.
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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

On Wed, 13.02.13 02:44, Dan Mashal (dan.mas...@gmail.com) wrote:

 Please can we test this on rawhide first if anything? I'm pretty sure a lot
 of thing are still ck dependant. We are still trying to catch up to systemd.

So, in contrast to the esound discussion I do not sense too much
opposition to me just retiring CK. So I'd probably do that in Rawhide
next week or so. CK would hence disappear in F19, but would give
everybody time until the branch or freeze or so to fix their packages...

Lennart

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-13 Thread Michael Cronenworth

DJ Delorie wrote:
 And now I have to restart my entire session to reset my gtk themes,
 because of one rogue app.  Thanks.

You have other serious system issues not affiliated with Audacious if
this is the case.
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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement


 You have other serious system issues not affiliated with Audacious if
 this is the case.

If I don't run gnome is considered other serious system issues, I
suppose so.

Restarting didn't help, I still had the wrong cursor in emacs and
firefox, but only the emacs and firefox run remotely back to my
display, the local emacs and firefox had the right cursors.  I still
can't figure out how to get rid of the wrong cursor without also
getting rid of the right cursors, so I'm currently *not* using Xcursor
because the theme stuff is so confusing.
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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 12:59:46 -0600, Michael Cronenworth wrote:

 DJ Delorie wrote:
  And now I have to restart my entire session to reset my gtk themes,
  because of one rogue app.  Thanks.
 
 You have other serious system issues not affiliated with Audacious if
 this is the case.

Hmmm, Audacious uses GTK+ v3, whereas XMMS uses GTK+ v1. We haven't heard
what desktop environment (or plain window manager) is being used. Perhaps
it can be disturbed by gtk3? It wouldn't be the first time that a modern
application exposes a bug/deficiency in a window manger.

Anyway, I do use Emacs, too, and my customized cursor doesn't get
disturbed by Audacious. ;)

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

On Feb 13, 2013 10:58 AM, Lennart Poettering mzerq...@0pointer.de wrote:

 On Wed, 13.02.13 02:44, Dan Mashal (dan.mas...@gmail.com) wrote:

  Please can we test this on rawhide first if anything? I'm pretty sure a
lot
  of thing are still ck dependant. We are still trying to catch up to
systemd.

 So, in contrast to the esound discussion I do not sense too much
 opposition to me just retiring CK. So I'd probably do that in Rawhide
 next week or so. CK would hence disappear in F19, but would give
 everybody time until the branch or freeze or so to fix their packages...

 Lennart

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Sorry if I sound ignorant but:

No. I meant fedora 20 rawhide. What is the problem with keeping it?

Are we just trying to break something different every time we release a new
version of Fedora?

Regardless, do you know exactly what depends on consolekit and what
doesn't? Have you gone through every package?

If so, great but my main question is who is it hurting right now? Let's
spend some more time to plan doing something like this. Again, just because
other distros do it is not a good enough reason.

Dan
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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

On Wed, 13.02.13 12:58, Dan Mashal (dan.mas...@gmail.com) wrote:

 Sorry if I sound ignorant but:
 
 No. I meant fedora 20 rawhide. What is the problem with keeping it?

There is no Fedora 20 rawhide.

I don't want to maintain it, and I want to put the pressure on the
few holdouts to finally port things over.

 Are we just trying to break something different every time we release a new
 version of Fedora?

Yes, of course. We are inherently evil people, who just hate other
people. We have no interest in making Fedora better, and are exclusively
lead by our deepest interest to make everybody's lifes as miserable as
we can.

 Regardless, do you know exactly what depends on consolekit and what
 doesn't? Have you gone through every package?

Please go back to mail #1 of this thread, thank you.

 If so, great but my main question is who is it hurting right now? Let's
 spend some more time to plan doing something like this. Again, just because
 other distros do it is not a good enough reason.

What do other distros have to do with this? It's *my* intention to get rid
of CK, I am upstream of it, and downstream too.

I will retire this next week, unless somebody steps up to take it over
pretty soon who really thinks his time is better spent on CK rather then
just fixing the remaining packages which use it (and as mentioned,
exorcising CK from packages is rather simple usually, as in most cases
you will just delete code, not add new code).

Lennart

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-13 Thread Michael Scherer

Le mercredi 13 février 2013 à 12:58 -0800, Dan Mashal a écrit :
 
 On Feb 13, 2013 10:58 AM, Lennart Poettering mzerq...@0pointer.de
 wrote:
 
  On Wed, 13.02.13 02:44, Dan Mashal (dan.mas...@gmail.com) wrote:
 
   Please can we test this on rawhide first if anything? I'm pretty
 sure a lot
   of thing are still ck dependant. We are still trying to catch up
 to systemd.
 
  So, in contrast to the esound discussion I do not sense too much
  opposition to me just retiring CK. So I'd probably do that in
 Rawhide
  next week or so. CK would hence disappear in F19, but would give
  everybody time until the branch or freeze or so to fix their
 packages...
 
  Lennart
 
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 Sorry if I sound ignorant but:
 
 No. I meant fedora 20 rawhide. What is the problem with keeping it? 
 
 Are we just trying to break something different every time we release
 a new version of Fedora? 
 
 Regardless, do you know exactly what depends on consolekit and what
 doesn't? Have you gone through every package?

That's a valid concern. While the list of packages requiring consolekit
are quite small ( ie, 3 packages, 1 being a shell script with support to
disable ck ), we cannot really check those using the dbus interface in a
exhaustive way.

However, I have already removed consolekit on my F18 without any notable
issue, so I do not think any breakage would be blocking. We have the
whole F19 cycle to find and detect the few packages needing fix.


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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-13 Thread Matthew Miller

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 11:38:42PM +0100, Michael Scherer wrote:
 However, I have already removed consolekit on my F18 without any notable
 issue, so I do not think any breakage would be blocking. We have the
 whole F19 cycle to find and detect the few packages needing fix.

Is this the kind of thing that would have been better done as a feature,
similar to the Usermode Migration feature?


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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-13 Thread Matthias Clasen



- Original Message -
 On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 11:38:42PM +0100, Michael Scherer wrote:
  However, I have already removed consolekit on my F18 without any
  notable
  issue, so I do not think any breakage would be blocking. We have
  the
  whole F19 cycle to find and detect the few packages needing fix.
 
 Is this the kind of thing that would have been better done as a
 feature,
 similar to the Usermode Migration feature?
 

This is really just the tail end of a migration that has largely already 
happened. Writing a feature for it now would be a little late, imo.

But what I really wanted to say is: thanks for seeing this through to the end, 
Lennart. Too often we don't complete these transitions, and then the remnants 
of old, half-broken infrastructure linger forever... In the place of 
ConsoleKit, /etc/X11/xinitrc-common is such a place - we should remove the 
mentions of ck-xinit-session from there for F19.

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

On Wed, 13.02.13 17:50, Matthew Miller (mat...@fedoraproject.org) wrote:

 On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 11:38:42PM +0100, Michael Scherer wrote:
  However, I have already removed consolekit on my F18 without any notable
  issue, so I do not think any breakage would be blocking. We have the
  whole F19 cycle to find and detect the few packages needing fix.
 
 Is this the kind of thing that would have been better done as a feature,
 similar to the Usermode Migration feature?

It is an (accepted) feature:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ckremoval

I am just looking to do the final step, to kill the beast entirely.

Lennart

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-13 Thread Matthew Miller

On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 12:34:35AM +0100, Lennart Poettering wrote:
 It is an (accepted) feature:
 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ckremoval

Huh. That (Fedora 17 feature) says 100% complete. 

 I am just looking to do the final step, to kill the beast entirely.

So, 110%. :)

Mind you, I have no attachment to ConsoleKit. I'd just like to see changes
with the potential for end-user impact go through some low-barrier form of
change management. I don't know if this reasonably rises to that level or
not; my origial question was (and remains) serious, not rhetorical.

In reading the F17 feature and the associated discussion page, it looks like
the actual final state of that was that the multi-seat portion was
implemented but the ckremoval portion wasn't completed, and that there was
no particular effort around non-Gnome desktops except documentation. So,
it's that last bit you're completing now, as I understand it.

I notice that there's a lot of documentation at user forums around using
ck-launch-session in ~/.xinitrc. We should probably at least release-notes
that.



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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

On Wed, 13.02.13 19:13, Matthew Miller (mat...@fedoraproject.org) wrote:

 On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 12:34:35AM +0100, Lennart Poettering wrote:
  It is an (accepted) feature:
  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ckremoval
 
 Huh. That (Fedora 17 feature) says 100% complete. 
 
  I am just looking to do the final step, to kill the beast entirely.
 
 So, 110%. :)
 
 Mind you, I have no attachment to ConsoleKit. I'd just like to see changes
 with the potential for end-user impact go through some low-barrier form of
 change management. I don't know if this reasonably rises to that level or
 not; my origial question was (and remains) serious, not rhetorical.
 
 In reading the F17 feature and the associated discussion page, it looks like
 the actual final state of that was that the multi-seat portion was
 implemented but the ckremoval portion wasn't completed, and that there was
 no particular effort around non-Gnome desktops except documentation. So,
 it's that last bit you're completing now, as I understand it.

Well, the goal of the feature was just getting it out of the default
install, and that we completed. Now I am building on that and want to
remove it entirely. This is then more than one year after we implemented
the original feature. I think that should be enough time for the
packagers to wake up under their rocks...

 I notice that there's a lot of documentation at user forums around using
 ck-launch-session in ~/.xinitrc. We should probably at least release-notes
 that.

Well, sure, if that's what it takes...

Lennart

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-13 Thread Orcan Ogetbil

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 4:21 AM, Hans de Goede wrote:
 Hi,


 On 02/13/2013 04:26 AM, DJ Delorie wrote:


 Hmm, we still have xmms in the repo?


 /me is very glad we still have xmms in the repo


 Have you tried using Audacious ? You can set it to
 classic mode, at which point it user experience is
 identical to xmms.

 With the advantage that it uses a modern toolkit, more
 modern plumbing in various places, and it is actively
 maintained both in Fedora and upstream.


While audacious can be made to look similar to xmms, it is not xmms,
and indeed they are very different from each other. xmms (with ALSA)
is the only player  that consistently worked for me with no problems
for the last 11 years. Moreover it uses the best (in my opinion) GTK
version out there.

If the esound or pulseaudio plugins are problematic, let us retire
them. I don't think xmms will be used by other people than us fanboys,
and I feel that we are fine with the ALSA output.

Anyhow it looks like spot was kind enough to pick it up, so no worries :)

Best,
Orcan
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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

DJ Delorie wrote:
 Disadvantage, if you ask me.  First thing audacious did was spew
 random errors to the screen and change my Firefox and emacs cursors.

So I suspect that Audacious started gnome-settings-daemon. In the past, some 
GNOME apps kept doing that under KDE Plasma sessions as well, until we 
started installing xsettings-kde by default, which claims XSettings 
ownership and thus prevents gnome-settings-daemon from running.

 If I don't run gnome is considered other serious system issues, I
 suppose so.

Well, it looks like you aren't running ANY desktop environment, or at least 
one that doesn't provide an XSettings manager.

Unfortunately, gnome-settings-daemon is a real annoyance, you cannot rely on 
it running when you don't use GNOME, because it's autostarted only in GNOME, 
but then some stuff ends up starting it for whatever reason. GNOME 
developers say it should only ever run in GNOME sessions, but somehow it 
still gets autospawned by some stuff, and only having some other software 
claim XSettings ownership (as xsettings-kde does in KDE Plasma sessions) 
will stop it from applying GNOME settings in the middle of your session.

 Restarting didn't help, I still had the wrong cursor in emacs and
 firefox, but only the emacs and firefox run remotely back to my
 display, the local emacs and firefox had the right cursors.  I still
 can't figure out how to get rid of the wrong cursor without also
 getting rid of the right cursors, so I'm currently *not* using Xcursor
 because the theme stuff is so confusing.

Did the evil gnome-settings-daemon even get autospawned? Try killall
gnome-settings-daemon.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

Lennart Poettering wrote:
 There is no Fedora 20 rawhide.

There will be one in less than 4 weeks.

 (and as mentioned, exorcising CK from packages is rather simple usually,
 as in most cases you will just delete code, not add new code).

I don't think that's true. As far as I know, LightDM relies on ConsoleKit 
for some essential functionality, and upstream has zero interest in systemd 
given that they're Ubuntu. So there is one person at Fedora / Red Hat who is 
trying to port it to systemd all alone, he's not done yet. I don't know what 
the state of the other affected packages is, but I assume there's also more 
to do than just disabling ConsoleKit support or it would have been already 
done (as we did for KDM long ago). For example, if a desktop (or even a 
display manager, like LightDM) wants to use ConsoleKit for shutdown/restart 
or, worse (in terms of porting effort), user switching, this all has to be 
ported to systemd, not just disabled.

I agree that ConsoleKit needs to go away, but FIRST all packages using it 
must be ported away from it, THEN it can be retired.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

Jon Ciesla wrote:
 That said, I maintain gnugb, and was able to easily remove the esound
 requirement.

What sound output options does that leave? I see only arts-devel in the 
BuildRequires list, and that's actually worse than esound, because it 
requires running another sound server from KDE 3 era on top of PulseAudio 
(which gets autospawned, but it unnecessarily eats resources), whereas the 
ESD protocol is emulated by PulseAudio.

I'd suggest dropping arts support (to squelch dependency bloat) and 
reenabling esound now that it got picked up (unless there's ALSA support 
which works with the PulseAudio ALSA plugin, then you can drop both arts and 
esound).

Kevin Kofler

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

Matthew Miller wrote:
 In reading the F17 feature and the associated discussion page, it looks
 like the actual final state of that was that the multi-seat portion was
 implemented but the ckremoval portion wasn't completed, and that there
 was no particular effort around non-Gnome desktops except documentation.

There was work done by KDE SIG too. No KDE stuff depends on ConsoleKit 
anymore (I wrote the patch to port kde-workspace's support for shutdown, 
restart and user switching without KDM from ConsoleKit to systemd), and 
ConsoleKit is not on the KDE spin.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-13 Thread Bruno Wolff III


On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 21:21:41 -0500,
  Orcan Ogetbil oget.fed...@gmail.com wrote:


If the esound or pulseaudio plugins are problematic, let us retire
them. I don't think xmms will be used by other people than us fanboys,
and I feel that we are fine with the ALSA output.

Anyhow it looks like spot was kind enough to pick it up, so no worries :)


I was still planning on retiring xmms. It has no upstream support. The volume 
control has issues that I don't have time to figure out.

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

I wrote:

 DJ Delorie wrote:
 Restarting didn't help, I still had the wrong cursor in emacs and
 firefox, but only the emacs and firefox run remotely back to my
 display, the local emacs and firefox had the right cursors.  I still
 can't figure out how to get rid of the wrong cursor without also
 getting rid of the right cursors, so I'm currently *not* using Xcursor
 because the theme stuff is so confusing.
 
 Did the evil gnome-settings-daemon even get autospawned? Try killall
 gnome-settings-daemon.

Oops, I mean, did it even get saved in the session and auto-REspawned? (That 
used not to be the case.)

Kevin Kofler

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement


 Well, it looks like you aren't running ANY desktop environment,

fvwm2, emacs, firefox, xterm.  Plus a few other things as needed.
This is for two computers running four monitors (one computer is the
local one with the monitors, the other is strictly ssh and remote X,
each computer has its own desktop I switch between).  It's a horror
show each time I upgrade, usually takes a few days to get everything
settled again.

 or at least one that doesn't provide an XSettings manager.

This is the first time I've *heard* of an XSettings manager.

 Did the evil gnome-settings-daemon even get autospawned? Try killall
 gnome-settings-daemon.

I did kill it.  It was running again anyway.  I killed it again and
replaced it with a script that just calls /bin/true :-)

Some of the appearance changed back when I killed the daemon, but I'll
have to reinstall the theme to see if the cursor is fixed.

I have a hard time keeping programs from running xrdb too, I usually
end up renaming that too.
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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

On Thu, 14.02.13 04:02, Kevin Kofler (kevin.kof...@chello.at) wrote:

  (and as mentioned, exorcising CK from packages is rather simple usually,
  as in most cases you will just delete code, not add new code).
 
 I don't think that's true. As far as I know, LightDM relies on ConsoleKit 
 for some essential functionality, and upstream has zero interest in systemd 
 given that they're Ubuntu.

Well, subscribing to systemd-devel for a while and asking a number of
questions (which the lightdm upstream did) is hardly zero interest.

 So there is one person at Fedora / Red Hat who is trying to port it
 to systemd all alone, he's not done yet. I don't know what the state
 of the other affected packages is, but I assume there's also more to
 do than just disabling ConsoleKit support or it would have been
 already done (as we did for KDM long ago). For example, if a desktop
 (or even a display manager, like LightDM) wants to use ConsoleKit for
 shutdown/restart or, worse (in terms of porting effort), user
 switching, this all has to be ported to systemd, not just disabled.
 
 I agree that ConsoleKit needs to go away, but FIRST all packages using it 
 must be ported away from it, THEN it can be retired.

Well, that's a pity, but I guess the burden for this really should be
carried by the lightdm folks then. So, lightdm folks, if you want to
keep CK around, then you need to step up, and take it over.

If I hear nothing but oh, oh, i think, oh, i think, then I will retire
it next week.

Lennart

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 7:02 PM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at wrote:
 Lennart Poettering wrote:
 There is no Fedora 20 rawhide.

 There will be one in less than 4 weeks.

 (and as mentioned, exorcising CK from packages is rather simple usually,
 as in most cases you will just delete code, not add new code).

 I don't think that's true. As far as I know, LightDM relies on ConsoleKit
 for some essential functionality, and upstream has zero interest in systemd
 given that they're Ubuntu. So there is one person at Fedora / Red Hat who is
 trying to port it to systemd all alone, he's not done yet. I don't know what
 the state of the other affected packages is, but I assume there's also more
 to do than just disabling ConsoleKit support or it would have been already
 done (as we did for KDM long ago). For example, if a desktop (or even a
 display manager, like LightDM) wants to use ConsoleKit for shutdown/restart
 or, worse (in terms of porting effort), user switching, this all has to be
 ported to systemd, not just disabled.

 I agree that ConsoleKit needs to go away, but FIRST all packages using it
 must be ported away from it, THEN it can be retired.

 Kevin Kofler

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This was exactly my point.

MATE Desktop being dependent on LightDM in Fedora (that can possibly
be changed).

However if LightDM had full systemd/logind support then I'm all for it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe XFCE, LXDE and MATE all use
LightDM and I think there were plans to get rid of KDM  on KDE in
favor of LightDM as well.

Thanks,
Dan
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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 7:26 PM, Bruno Wolff III br...@wolff.to wrote:
 On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 21:21:41 -0500,
   Orcan Ogetbil oget.fed...@gmail.com wrote:


 If the esound or pulseaudio plugins are problematic, let us retire
 them. I don't think xmms will be used by other people than us fanboys,
 and I feel that we are fine with the ALSA output.

 Anyhow it looks like spot was kind enough to pick it up, so no worries :)


 I was still planning on retiring xmms. It has no upstream support. The
 volume control has issues that I don't have time to figure out.

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I found pavucontrol very useful to deal with the volume control issue.
Thanks to rdieter for the help on that.

Thanks,
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ConsoleKit and esound retirement

Heya,

since a while now logind has replaced CK in Fedora. I'd like to retire
it entirely from the distribution now.

Most deps on CK are gone. Holdouts are cdm, lightdm, lxsession, lxdm.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_remove_a_package_at_end_of_life

This page doesn't say anything about retiring packages other still
depend on... 

I am tempted to just retire CK ignoring the remaining dependencies, in
the hope this will put the pressure on the folks involved to update
their stuff...

Getting rid of CK in those packages is dead simple BTW. Just disable it
in the packages, but make sure pam_systemd is in the PAM stack for your
greeter tool. It's basically about removing code, not about adding
new code -- adding new code is only necessary if you want to improve
your DM to handle multi-seat setups, too (which is a new feature of
logind, not available in CK[1]). For details, see:

http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/writing-display-managers

I'd also like to retire esound finally. Currently, adplay, ayttm,
dopewars, e16, gnome-libs, gnubg, lxdream, moon-buggy, spacechart,
xarchon, xmms-esd still use it. esd of course has been deprecated and
dead since many years, the packages which still use it really should
wake up one day. So here, too, I'd just like to retire the package...

Alternatively, somebody else can take these over, but honstely I'd
rather see them removed than continue to bitrot in our repository...

Lennart

Footnotes:

[1] If you are interested in adding proper multi-seat support to the DM
of your choice, then we might be able to supply you with a free set of
multi-seat hardware so that you can actually make it work. Ping me.

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-12 Thread Jon Ciesla

On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Lennart Poettering
mzerq...@0pointer.dewrote:

 Heya,

 since a while now logind has replaced CK in Fedora. I'd like to retire
 it entirely from the distribution now.

 Most deps on CK are gone. Holdouts are cdm, lightdm, lxsession,
 lxdm.

 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_remove_a_package_at_end_of_life

 This page doesn't say anything about retiring packages other still
 depend on...

 I am tempted to just retire CK ignoring the remaining dependencies, in
 the hope this will put the pressure on the folks involved to update
 their stuff...

 Getting rid of CK in those packages is dead simple BTW. Just disable it
 in the packages, but make sure pam_systemd is in the PAM stack for your
 greeter tool. It's basically about removing code, not about adding
 new code -- adding new code is only necessary if you want to improve
 your DM to handle multi-seat setups, too (which is a new feature of
 logind, not available in CK[1]). For details, see:

 http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/writing-display-managers

 I'd also like to retire esound finally. Currently, adplay, ayttm,
 dopewars, e16, gnome-libs, gnubg, lxdream, moon-buggy, spacechart,
 xarchon, xmms-esd still use it. esd of course has been deprecated and
 dead since many years, the packages which still use it really should
 wake up one day. So here, too, I'd just like to retire the package...

 Alternatively, somebody else can take these over, but honstely I'd
 rather see them removed than continue to bitrot in our repository...


So to clarify, you're not actually retiring anything currently, just
expressing to the community that you'd like to and that we should work
toward making that possible?

If so, do you have any guidelines on getting rid of esound requirements?

-J



 Lennart

 Footnotes:

 [1] If you are interested in adding proper multi-seat support to the DM
 of your choice, then we might be able to supply you with a free set of
 multi-seat hardware so that you can actually make it work. Ping me.

 --
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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

On Tue, 12.02.13 12:38, Jon Ciesla (limburg...@gmail.com) wrote:

 On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Lennart Poettering
 mzerq...@0pointer.dewrote:
 
  Heya,
 
  since a while now logind has replaced CK in Fedora. I'd like to retire
  it entirely from the distribution now.
 
  Most deps on CK are gone. Holdouts are cdm, lightdm, lxsession,
  lxdm.
 
  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_remove_a_package_at_end_of_life
 
  This page doesn't say anything about retiring packages other still
  depend on...
 
  I am tempted to just retire CK ignoring the remaining dependencies, in
  the hope this will put the pressure on the folks involved to update
  their stuff...
 
  Getting rid of CK in those packages is dead simple BTW. Just disable it
  in the packages, but make sure pam_systemd is in the PAM stack for your
  greeter tool. It's basically about removing code, not about adding
  new code -- adding new code is only necessary if you want to improve
  your DM to handle multi-seat setups, too (which is a new feature of
  logind, not available in CK[1]). For details, see:
 
  http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/writing-display-managers
 
  I'd also like to retire esound finally. Currently, adplay, ayttm,
  dopewars, e16, gnome-libs, gnubg, lxdream, moon-buggy, spacechart,
  xarchon, xmms-esd still use it. esd of course has been deprecated and
  dead since many years, the packages which still use it really should
  wake up one day. So here, too, I'd just like to retire the package...
 
  Alternatively, somebody else can take these over, but honstely I'd
  rather see them removed than continue to bitrot in our repository...
 
 So to clarify, you're not actually retiring anything currently, just
 expressing to the community that you'd like to and that we should work
 toward making that possible?

Well, I am just checking before I do something whether I can actually do
it. That's all. By next week or so I will either have retired the
packages (which I'd prefer) or somebody else took them over (which I'd
prefer not to do, but which we can do too, if the retro-computing folks
step up...)

 If so, do you have any guidelines on getting rid of esound requirements?

Dunno really. My suspicion is that the packages in question are either
obsolete on their own, or should just be compiled with --disable-esd or
so. These packages all look pretty much esoteric or obsolete to me, so I
am not really that curious what precisely packagers would need to do...

Lennart

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-12 Thread Jon Ciesla

On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Lennart Poettering mzerq...@0pointer.dewrote:

 On Tue, 12.02.13 12:38, Jon Ciesla (limburg...@gmail.com) wrote:

  On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Lennart Poettering
  mzerq...@0pointer.dewrote:
 
   Heya,
  
   since a while now logind has replaced CK in Fedora. I'd like to retire
   it entirely from the distribution now.
  
   Most deps on CK are gone. Holdouts are cdm, lightdm, lxsession,
   lxdm.
  
   https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_remove_a_package_at_end_of_life
  
   This page doesn't say anything about retiring packages other still
   depend on...
  
   I am tempted to just retire CK ignoring the remaining dependencies, in
   the hope this will put the pressure on the folks involved to update
   their stuff...
  
   Getting rid of CK in those packages is dead simple BTW. Just disable it
   in the packages, but make sure pam_systemd is in the PAM stack for your
   greeter tool. It's basically about removing code, not about adding
   new code -- adding new code is only necessary if you want to improve
   your DM to handle multi-seat setups, too (which is a new feature of
   logind, not available in CK[1]). For details, see:
  
  
 http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/writing-display-managers
  
   I'd also like to retire esound finally. Currently, adplay, ayttm,
   dopewars, e16, gnome-libs, gnubg, lxdream, moon-buggy, spacechart,
   xarchon, xmms-esd still use it. esd of course has been deprecated and
   dead since many years, the packages which still use it really should
   wake up one day. So here, too, I'd just like to retire the package...
  
   Alternatively, somebody else can take these over, but honstely I'd
   rather see them removed than continue to bitrot in our repository...
 
  So to clarify, you're not actually retiring anything currently, just
  expressing to the community that you'd like to and that we should work
  toward making that possible?

 Well, I am just checking before I do something whether I can actually do
 it. That's all. By next week or so I will either have retired the
 packages (which I'd prefer) or somebody else took them over (which I'd
 prefer not to do, but which we can do too, if the retro-computing folks
 step up...)

 I'd prefer that you orphan them, and mail the list, ccing foo-owner for
each dependency, that you're doing so.  That said, I maintain gnugb, and
was able to easily remove the esound requirement.  If no one else wants to
maintain esound, I will, even if only long enough to excise it from the
packages that need it.


  If so, do you have any guidelines on getting rid of esound requirements?

 Dunno really. My suspicion is that the packages in question are either
 obsolete on their own, or should just be compiled with --disable-esd or
 so. These packages all look pretty much esoteric or obsolete to me, so I
 am not really that curious what precisely packagers would need to do...


Obsolete is in the eye of the beholder.  I don't think games ever truly
are. ;)

-J



 Lennart

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-12 Thread Peter Robinson

On 12 Feb 2013 19:53, Jon Ciesla limburg...@gmail.com wrote:



 On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Lennart Poettering mzerq...@0pointer.de
wrote:

 On Tue, 12.02.13 12:38, Jon Ciesla (limburg...@gmail.com) wrote:

  On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Lennart Poettering
  mzerq...@0pointer.dewrote:
 
   Heya,
  
   since a while now logind has replaced CK in Fedora. I'd like to
retire
   it entirely from the distribution now.
  
   Most deps on CK are gone. Holdouts are cdm, lightdm, lxsession,
   lxdm.
  
   https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_remove_a_package_at_end_of_life
  
   This page doesn't say anything about retiring packages other still
   depend on...
  
   I am tempted to just retire CK ignoring the remaining dependencies,
in
   the hope this will put the pressure on the folks involved to update
   their stuff...
  
   Getting rid of CK in those packages is dead simple BTW. Just disable
it
   in the packages, but make sure pam_systemd is in the PAM stack for
your
   greeter tool. It's basically about removing code, not about adding
   new code -- adding new code is only necessary if you want to improve
   your DM to handle multi-seat setups, too (which is a new feature of
   logind, not available in CK[1]). For details, see:
  
  
http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/writing-display-managers
  
   I'd also like to retire esound finally. Currently, adplay, ayttm,
   dopewars, e16, gnome-libs, gnubg, lxdream, moon-buggy, spacechart,
   xarchon, xmms-esd still use it. esd of course has been deprecated and
   dead since many years, the packages which still use it really should
   wake up one day. So here, too, I'd just like to retire the package...
  
   Alternatively, somebody else can take these over, but honstely I'd
   rather see them removed than continue to bitrot in our repository...
 
  So to clarify, you're not actually retiring anything currently, just
  expressing to the community that you'd like to and that we should work
  toward making that possible?

 Well, I am just checking before I do something whether I can actually do
 it. That's all. By next week or so I will either have retired the
 packages (which I'd prefer) or somebody else took them over (which I'd
 prefer not to do, but which we can do too, if the retro-computing folks
 step up...)

 I'd prefer that you orphan them, and mail the list, ccing foo-owner for
each dependency, that you're doing so.  That said, I maintain gnugb, and
was able to easily remove the esound requirement.  If no one else wants to
maintain esound, I will, even if only long enough to excise it from the
packages that need it.

In the case of esound I think we're better killing them because I suspect
in all cases the packages are either:
- optional packages better served by either native PA or alsa support in
other sub/related  packages
- disable the esd support and just use the native alsa/oss in the package

In all cases I strongly doubt the user will lose functionality and we
should just get on with it.

  If so, do you have any guidelines on getting rid of esound
requirements?

 Dunno really. My suspicion is that the packages in question are either
 obsolete on their own, or should just be compiled with --disable-esd or
 so. These packages all look pretty much esoteric or obsolete to me, so I
 am not really that curious what precisely packagers would need to do...


 Obsolete is in the eye of the beholder.  I don't think games ever truly
are. ;)

 -J



 Lennart

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-12 Thread Rahul Sundaram

On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 1:34 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:

 I'd also like to retire esound finally. Currently, adplay, ayttm,
 dopewars, e16, gnome-libs, gnubg, lxdream, moon-buggy, spacechart,
 xarchon, xmms-esd still use it.


Most of these projects if not all are dead upstream but for now, I have
disabled esd support in ayttm and adplay.  I will take a look at others
when I find time.

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-12 Thread Kevin Fenzi

xfce4-session still wants to use ConsoleKit, however, there are
upstream patches to fix that. I was waiting for a release to happen
with them, but I can pick them in before them if need be.

kevin


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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-12 Thread Kevin Kofler

Peter Robinson wrote:
 In the case of esound I think we're better killing them because I suspect
 in all cases the packages are either:
 - optional packages better served by either native PA or alsa support in
 other sub/related  packages
 - disable the esd support and just use the native alsa/oss in the package

Actually, several of those games support ONLY esd for sound. Disabling esd = 
disabling sound in those games. Not so nice, considering that PulseAudio 
still supports the ESD protocol just fine. Now if Lennart is going to drop 
the protocol support from PulseAudio, then libesd will have to go away as 
well, but if it's just about Fedora maintainership, then the maintainer(s) 
of one or more of the affected packages should just take it over.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

On Tue, 12.02.13 13:52, Jon Ciesla (limburg...@gmail.com) wrote:

   So to clarify, you're not actually retiring anything currently, just
   expressing to the community that you'd like to and that we should work
   toward making that possible?
 
  Well, I am just checking before I do something whether I can actually do
  it. That's all. By next week or so I will either have retired the
  packages (which I'd prefer) or somebody else took them over (which I'd
  prefer not to do, but which we can do too, if the retro-computing folks
  step up...)

 I'd prefer that you orphan them, and mail the list, ccing foo-owner for
 each dependency, that you're doing so.  That said, I maintain gnugb, and
 was able to easily remove the esound requirement.  If no one else wants to
 maintain esound, I will, even if only long enough to excise it from the
 packages that need it.

OK, if that's what you want. I have now orphaned esound. Please take it
over. 

Lennart

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement

2013-02-12 Thread Rahul Sundaram

Hi


On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 5:51 PM, Lennart Poettering mzerq...@0pointer.dewrote:


 OK, if that's what you want. I have now orphaned esound. Please take it
 over.



https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=910600  spacechart
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=910601  xmms

It is not clear why spacechart is picking up esound but it in any case,
xmms could disable it easily.  Couple of games look they need to be ported
over and their needs usually are simple enough

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Re: ConsoleKit and esound retirement