Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Fri, 19.07.13 20:12, Miloslav Trmač (m...@volny.cz) wrote: On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson johan...@gmail.com wrote: On 07/17/2013 12:05 PM, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 09:21:39AM +, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: On 07/17/2013 12:58 AM, Ding Yi Chen wrote: You still have not addressed the third party programs and scripts that monitor /var/log/messages We honestly cant keep progress and cleanup in the distribution back out of fear of breaking some third party programs. Irrespective of whether journald is good or bad, this is a dumb argument. Dumb I see so you have established a time frame for us how long we should hold back progress in the project and or you have devised an implementation plan on features and cleanups with a rate that a third party can keep up with in the distribution, maybe even chosen which third parties we wait for and which we dont? Progress does not that frequently depend on removing older functionality. Specifically in this case, removing rsyslog does not make journal in any way better. It certainly makes *Fedora* better though, by making the core less redundant and decreasing its footprint. The same thinking applies to individual sets of APIs and other interfaces: write the new implementation, write a compatibility layer for old users that replaces the old implementation, write a test suite of the compatibility layer (... or just use the test suite of the implementation thing that you should have already), keep the compatibility layer shipped and running and forget about the transition. Writing a compatibility layer is roughly the same kind of work as porting applications, so with any interface that has at least a handful of users a single compatibility layer should in fact be less work. With this approach, it's not at all obvious that one shouldn't aim for a backward compatibility 100 years back[1][2]. Mirek Note that the journal provides this compatbility layer to a fairly comprehensive degree. We speak the syslog protocol natively so that log clients don't have to be updated. We provide a pretty much perfect identical output to /var/log/messages as default from journalctl. We make it easy to to get the exact files /var/log/messages by forwarding everything to syslog instantly if it is running. However, we also go one step further: eventually we remove the old implementation from the default installation. That's a very gentle push only, because the old stuff is trivially easy to get back, simply by installing rsyslog again. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Sun, 2013-07-21 at 20:46 -0400, Ding Yi Chen wrote: - Original Message - On Thu, 2013-07-18 at 21:37 -0400, Ding Yi Chen wrote: Exactly - adding to the minimal install is generally always a supported operation. Removing from the minimal install is always a 'buyer beware' or 'you get both pieces' operation. Didn't Jesse Keating said something like we don't offer minimal install other than uncheck the all boxes? I doubt Jesse would say that, and if he did, he'd be wrong: it's a He did, see this and the thread Regarding install options: http://www.redhat.com/archives/rhl-devel-list/2008-October/msg01277.html Um. You could have qualified your statement with 'in 2008'. That was the old anaconda UI. We have been using a new one for two releases. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
Le Jeu 18 juillet 2013 16:08, Lennart Poettering a écrit : But anyway, I understand you like ISO, and think it is readable. I don't agree, but we just have to agree to disagree on this one. It might thrill you though to learn that I just commited a patch by Tomasz that adds an ISO output mode to journalctl. journalctl -o short-iso is your friend. Thank you very much (and Tomasz of course), that's awesome turnaround. Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Thu, 2013-07-18 at 21:37 -0400, Ding Yi Chen wrote: Exactly - adding to the minimal install is generally always a supported operation. Removing from the minimal install is always a 'buyer beware' or 'you get both pieces' operation. Didn't Jesse Keating said something like we don't offer minimal install other than uncheck the all boxes? I doubt Jesse would say that, and if he did, he'd be wrong: it's a primary group in the package selection spoke of an equal status with GNOME, KDE etc. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 10:37 AM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.comwrote: On Thu, 2013-07-18 at 21:37 -0400, Ding Yi Chen wrote: Exactly - adding to the minimal install is generally always a supported operation. Removing from the minimal install is always a 'buyer beware' or 'you get both pieces' operation. Didn't Jesse Keating said something like we don't offer minimal install other than uncheck the all boxes? I doubt Jesse would say that, and if he did, he'd be wrong: it's a primary group in the package selection spoke of an equal status with GNOME, KDE etc. Perhaps there should be a Least Possible Bootable install for situations like this. I would agree Syslog should be missing from such an install. Just not from Default -- Not until journalctl and systemd attain ubiquity.. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson johan...@gmail.com wrote: On 07/17/2013 12:05 PM, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 09:21:39AM +, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: On 07/17/2013 12:58 AM, Ding Yi Chen wrote: You still have not addressed the third party programs and scripts that monitor /var/log/messages We honestly cant keep progress and cleanup in the distribution back out of fear of breaking some third party programs. Irrespective of whether journald is good or bad, this is a dumb argument. Dumb I see so you have established a time frame for us how long we should hold back progress in the project and or you have devised an implementation plan on features and cleanups with a rate that a third party can keep up with in the distribution, maybe even chosen which third parties we wait for and which we dont? Progress does not that frequently depend on removing older functionality. Specifically in this case, removing rsyslog does not make journal in any way better. We as a community need to be able to set the pace for ourselves and the fact is unless you are closed source the best thing you can do as a third party is actually participate in the Fedoraproject, packaging you software or application stack and ship it within the distribution so that our existing processes will catch any fallout which our features or cleanups might bring and allow for the community to actually fix it with your or for you. The we have source, we can improve the API, update all users and end up with a cleaner design argument is very rarely true in practice outside of fairly tightly coordinating communities (of which the Linux kernel and its approach to internal interfaces is probably the most visible example). In fact, we as a distribution are getting _worse and worse_ in this regard. There are, instead, more and more subsystems that ship parallel-installable versions with no specific plans about ever fixing all users - sometimes apparently just hoping that both the unported users and older versions of the subsystem will die of neglect at approximately the same time. The argument about updating all users is just not true for proprietary applications, binary-only applications, or cross-platform applications with a release schedule significantly different from Fedora. (Some people think that the Linux ecosystem should be entirely Open Source, so they don't find this relevant. I'd rather not extend this huge thread into a discussion of this particular difference of opinion.) Finally, as a thought experiment - we have a fairly well developed concept of automated testing, and we (so far?) have Moore's law making CPU, storage and the cost of testing exponentially cheaper over time; it just might be the right thing to do to provide essentially infinite backward compatibility, in the same way the newest Windows can run 64-bit applications completely natively, 32-bit applications almost natively, 16-bit applications in a VM or full software emulation, or even fully emulate old 8-bit systems. The same thinking applies to individual sets of APIs and other interfaces: write the new implementation, write a compatibility layer for old users that replaces the old implementation, write a test suite of the compatibility layer (... or just use the test suite of the implementation thing that you should have already), keep the compatibility layer shipped and running and forget about the transition. Writing a compatibility layer is roughly the same kind of work as porting applications, so with any interface that has at least a handful of users a single compatibility layer should in fact be less work. With this approach, it's not at all obvious that one shouldn't aim for a backward compatibility 100 years back[1][2]. Mirek [1] One can't promise the backward compatibility 100 years into the future, though, no more that one can promise that any particular town/nation/language/building will still exist. [2] Don't worry, I'm not at all proposing that Fedora should aim for a backward compatibility 100 years back. I do want to seriously undermine the idea that progress requires removing or breaking things, though. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/19/2013 06:12 PM, Miloslav Trmač wrote: Progress does not that frequently depend on removing older functionality. Specifically in this case, removing rsyslog does not make journal in any way better. Perhaps not that' s a matter of opinion but to we should be able to compare it against the discussion and decision that was made when it was declared that rsyslog should become our syslogger over for example syslog-ng to see if it at least meats those standards. In anycase the fact cannot be ignored or denied that it is unnecessary to ship two sysloggers... JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson johan...@gmail.com
wrote:
On 07/19/2013 06:12 PM, Miloslav Trmač wrote:
Progress does not that frequently depend on removing older
functionality. Specifically in this case, removing rsyslog does not
make journal in any way better.
Perhaps not that' s a matter of opinion but to we should be able to
compare it against the discussion and decision that was made when it was
declared that rsyslog should become our syslogger over for example
syslog-ng to see if it at least meats those standards.
This is *not the same thing*. In case anyone here is unaware, rsyslog and
syslog-ng are exclusive. ${Syslog} and systemd are not.
In anycase the fact cannot be ignored or denied that it is unnecessary to
ship two sysloggers...
I haven't seen anyone asking to ship two sysloggers.
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Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Jul 19, 2013 2:11 PM, Steve Clark scl...@netwolves.com wrote: On 07/19/2013 02:56 PM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: On 07/19/2013 06:45 PM, Billy Crook wrote: I haven't seen anyone asking to ship two sysloggers. I perhaps should have been clearer and say two logging systems which we currently are doing and one of those cannot be disabled or removed so the logical choice is to remove the one that can and make him as an option to be install later. JBG This might have merit if the one you want to keep could do everything it does plus what the one you want to remove does. Well put. This is exactly why NoSyslog is premature. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/19/2013 07:11 PM, Steve Clark wrote: This might have merit if the one you want to keep could do everything it does plus what the one you want to remove does. And to establish if it does that, we need to know what the deceive factor was of choosing rsyslog in the first place over syslog-ng and other logging systems. JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/19/2013 02:56 PM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: On 07/19/2013 06:45 PM, Billy Crook wrote: I haven't seen anyone asking to ship two sysloggers. I perhaps should have been clearer and say two logging systems which we currently are doing and one of those cannot be disabled or removed so the logical choice is to remove the one that can and make him as an option to be install later. JBG This might have merit if the one you want to keep could do everything it does plus what the one you want to remove does. -- Stephen Clark *NetWolves* Director of Technology Phone: 813-579-3200 Fax: 813-882-0209 Email: steve.cl...@netwolves.com http://www.netwolves.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/19/2013 07:11 PM, Steve Clark wrote: This might have merit if the one you want to keep could do everything it does plus what the one you want to remove does. If the intent was to obsolete rsyslog then yes that would be relevant but since it's not, that's not the case. JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 02:16:13PM -0500, Billy Crook wrote: Well put. This is exactly why NoSyslog is premature. And that's exactly why it's NoDefaultSyslog, not NoSyslog. -- Matthew Miller ☁☁☁ Fedora Cloud Architect ☁☁☁ mat...@fedoraproject.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/19/2013 06:45 PM, Billy Crook wrote: I haven't seen anyone asking to ship two sysloggers. I perhaps should have been clearer and say two logging systems which we currently are doing and one of those cannot be disabled or removed so the logical choice is to remove the one that can and make him as an option to be install later. JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
Jóhann B. Guðmundsson (johan...@gmail.com) said: On 07/19/2013 07:11 PM, Steve Clark wrote: This might have merit if the one you want to keep could do everything it does plus what the one you want to remove does. And to establish if it does that, we need to know what the deceive factor was of choosing rsyslog in the first place over syslog-ng and other logging systems. rsyslog was chosen over syslog-ng at the time because of better compatibility with sysklogd. I'd have to dig back to check, but I think the config file was part of it. Bill -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
Hi Lennart, I suppose someone should mention small flash-disk-only computers. There traditionally we fling syslog messages to the serial console or a LRU buffer in RAM (often the dmesg buffer). The point is to avoid I/O on the flash memory. Syslog daemons tend to do a lot of fsync-ed I/O, which just chews up flash write cycles. With some configuration the syslog daemons can be made to not to fsync, and with additional configuration to write to the serial port or to the dmesg ring buffer. These small computers aren't specialised embedded systems anymore -- if you buy a cheap ARM-based laptop then you are buying a such a system. Their increasing popularity is very much the reason ARM is becoming a top-teir architecture in Fedora. These systems are *cheap*, so they don't have the write cycles of an expensive SSD. I'm not across journald at all. But the questions in my mind are: - Is is possible to run journald without writing to disk; that is: to serial as text, or as binary to a ring buffer which can then by used by journalctl? - When writing to disk does journald fsync, and if so can that be disabled by a non-guru laptop user? - Is journalctl available from the dracut shell, so that we can get bug reports for early system failures? There is a lot more variation in small computers, and thus more early system failures. Thank you for making the binary format portable between computers. Allowing a 32b ARM journal file to be displayed on a x86_64 desktop is very useful. Thank you for your time, glen -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 08:15:11AM +0930, Glen Turner wrote: Hi Lennart, I suppose someone should mention small flash-disk-only computers. There traditionally we fling syslog messages to the serial console or a LRU buffer in RAM (often the dmesg buffer). The point is to avoid I/O on the flash memory. Syslog daemons tend to do a lot of fsync-ed I/O, which just chews up flash write cycles. With some configuration the syslog daemons can be made to not to fsync, and with additional configuration to write to the serial port or to the dmesg ring buffer. These small computers aren't specialised embedded systems anymore -- if you buy a cheap ARM-based laptop then you are buying a such a system. Their increasing popularity is very much the reason ARM is becoming a top-teir architecture in Fedora. These systems are *cheap*, so they don't have the write cycles of an expensive SSD. I'm not across journald at all. But the questions in my mind are: I'm not Lennart, but I'll try to answer your questions: - Is is possible to run journald without writing to disk; that is: to serial as text, or as binary to a ring buffer which can then by used by journalctl? Yes, it's possible to keep journal completely in /run/ by setting Storage=volatile or not creating /var/log/journal at all. See journald.conf(5). - When writing to disk does journald fsync, and if so can that be disabled by a non-guru laptop user? Yes, see SyncIntervalSec in journald.conf(5). - Is journalctl available from the dracut shell, so that we can get bug reports for early system failures? There is a lot more variation in small computers, and thus more early system failures. Yes, dracut uses systemd and journald too. Thank you for making the binary format portable between computers. Allowing a 32b ARM journal file to be displayed on a x86_64 desktop is very useful. Yes, systemd should be completely portable between architectures. Zbyszek -- they are not broken. they are refucktored -- alxchk -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
Billy Crook (billycr...@gmail.com) said: Perhaps there should be a Least Possible Bootable install for situations like this. I would agree Syslog should be missing from such an install. Just not from Default -- Not until journalctl and systemd attain ubiquity.. The installation only has a default because of user requests to not require anaconda to go into that menu. It's still a choice of one of the installation options presented (GNOME, KDE, minimal, infrastructure server, etc.). Minimal is definitely a *subset* of all the others, but that doesn't make it a 'default'. Bill -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 01:02:00AM +0200, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: - Is is possible to run journald without writing to disk; that is: to serial as text, or as binary to a ring buffer which can then by used by journalctl? Yes, it's possible to keep journal completely in /run/ by setting Storage=volatile or not creating /var/log/journal at all. See journald.conf(5). Plus add ForwardToConsole=yes and you can have it write to a serial console. -- Matthew Miller ☁☁☁ Fedora Cloud Architect ☁☁☁ mat...@fedoraproject.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
Oh come on you are really reaching now. The below two points are especially ridiculous. 1. What if they update the system like this: Backed up user data/script - Fresh install - Restore user data/script For that, it won't work. This is called a fresh install and not an upgrade. In this scenario there would be a substantial amount of work anyway... A sane backup in this workflow should include an rpm list to restore anyway (which would then include rsyslog). Would you just do the install and then have over the machine? No you'd do various customisation bits and as an informed admin you know of the change and can add rsyslog if you want. If an inattentive admin in this scenario you'd do your install and check for problems in /var/log/messages and see the README ... If such a bad admin even that is missed then the person is in the wrong job. 2. Like other already point out, Windows/Fedora dual boot. You can see /var/log/messages from Windows, but how can you get journalctl output in Windows? Oh how do you get your logs to read in windows from your lvm/ext4/btrfs filesystems currently in a disk boot scenario? -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Jul 18, 2013 12:22 AM, James Hogarth james.hoga...@gmail.com wrote: Oh how do you get your logs to read in windows from your lvm/ext4/btrfs filesystems currently in a disk boot scenario? Using ext2fsd: http://www.ext2fsd.com Eric -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
Oh how do you get your logs to read in windows from your lvm/ext4/btrfs filesystems currently in a disk boot scenario? Using ext2fsd: http://www.ext2fsd.com ... I'd suggest you read that page and then look at my question and think real hard... -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/18/2013 06:36 AM, Michael Catanzaro wrote: On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 14:58 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: We ask this constantly on Fedora. Because Fedora is where innovation is supposed to take place, not where things are stay frozen in carbonite forever. (And let's never forget that Fedora is not the pioneer here. ArchLinux went journal-only already. We are not actually the innovators here, we just follow.) I believe openSUSE 12.3 does not install syslog anymore either. (I think they decided they did not want to log everything twice? :) Fedora's following this time. Is this of any importance? May be you should think about the reasons we are using Fedora and are not using openSUSE. That said Fedora should draw its own decisions and not try to be an imitation cult. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 18 July 2013 10:17, Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de wrote: Is this of any importance? May be you should think about the reasons we are using Fedora and are not using openSUSE. That said Fedora should draw its own decisions and not try to be an imitation cult. Well given that one of the cases complaining against the change stated how they liked how they could grab a linux system and grep /var/log/messages and it's a defacto standard that shouldn't change and so on yes I'd say that would be of importance as a counter point. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/17/2013 06:49 PM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: On 07/17/2013 03:48 PM, Denys Vlasenko wrote: Note that the argument comes from the same group of people who pushed for mounting tmpfs on /run and /tmp. So you prefer to have a fragile boot code to empty /run and do you want to be consistent with what other distribution suse/debian/arch and solaris are doing? If you want to disable tmp on tmpfs simple run|||systemctl mask tmp.mount ||| My machine: # df -h Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on tmpfs 3.9G 4.5M 3.9G 1% /run tmpfs 3.9G 4.9M 3.9G 1% /tmp 10 megs of *RAM* consumed. My /var/log/messages is 12 megabytes at the moment. These same people feel offended by wasted 12 megs of *disk space*? Please... Yes 10 megs of *RAM* consumed by *you* on *your* machine based on *your* setup Same folders on my fully updated always running F18 work laptop tmpfs 1.9G 1.2M 1.9G 1% /run tmpfs 1.9G 372K 1.9G 1% /tmp less then 2MB of *RAM* consumed du -hs /var/log/ --exclude=/var/log/journal 6.1M/var/log/ And 6.1M of wasted diskspace on my SSD And your point being? My point is that it is hypocritical to decry a huge performance cost of /var/log/messages one day and next day eat many megabytes of RAM and claim that it's not a big deal. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/18/2013 12:40 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Wed, 17.07.13 17:50, Denys Vlasenko (dvlas...@redhat.com) wrote: On 07/17/2013 05:21 PM, john.flor...@dart.biz wrote: From: scl...@netwolves.com This seems like such a specious argument. Maybe it made sense when we were talking about disk drives that were megabytes in size, but now we have 500 gigabyte drives usually as a minimum. You don't ever work with embedded systems, do you? If you are running systemd on a embedded system, you are clearly not concerned about saving space :) There are actually quite a few embedded devices running systemd these days. Wind generators, outer space telescopes, cars, toys, quite a lot of other stuff. We do get reports about this from time to time. Did I say systemd can't be run on an embedded device? I said that if one runs systemd on a embedded system, then this device isn't seriously resource constrained. Do you see that these two statements are not the same? So, no snarky comments about embedded devices, please, it's entirely inappropriate. What's inappropriate is giving instructions to others what they can, or can not say. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Wed, 17.07.13 22:08, Ding Yi Chen (dc...@redhat.com) wrote: Well, this won't break systems as the change is only for new installations. Existing systems will stay exactly as they are, rsyslog stays installed, and will work as always. 1. What if they update the system like this: Backed up user data/script - Fresh install - Restore user data/script For that, it won't work. In such a case, you already need to manually reinstall all packages you need beyond the default set after the reinstallation. The fewest people probably stick to exactly the set of packages we install by default for their systems. rsyslog is now one more of those packages you need to reinstall after your system is back up. 2. Like other already point out, Windows/Fedora dual boot. You can see /var/log/messages from Windows, but how can you get journalctl output in Windows? Well, as pointed out before, journalctl on Windows helps little if you cannot access the Linux partitions in the first place, because they are ext4 or btrfs. Please update your knowledge, see: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=428097 They have /var/log/messages, yes, it might be different with ours. But yes, they have that. So, they store different stuff in it. The interesting stuff is mostly in daemon.log on Debian. So with your suggested program you'd miss out all the interesting bit son Debian. This stuff is certainly not standardized on Unix systems... a) If debian output the thing I want in /var/log/messages anyway, why should I care whether other daemon output in other files? Well, most likely it won't include the interesting bits, because they are in daemon.log. I mean, you claim that all distros have /var/log/messages and that that's where the interesting stuff goes. And that is simply not true. No ifs, it's just simply not true. b) If my environment only contains RHEL and Fedora, why should I care how Debian, Arch and Ubuntu handle their logs? Well, journalctl has been available for some time already on Fedora, and will be in RHEL7 too, so you shouldn't be too concerned there. Innovation should not be the cost of reliability and portability. This change touches neither. /var/log/messages already isn't standard in whether it exists at all, and what it contains, so we certainly don't make portability worse... Something is not standard does not mean nobody using it. No it doesn't. Every package in the Fedora archive is used by somebody, but that doesn't mean we install *all* packages always. We try to install a default set that tries neither to be minimal, nor to include everything possible. Something that one can work with and that has little redundancy. Especially it is there quite a long time. Remove it simply break their expectation and scripts. For that, you do make the portability worse. No, not true by any definition of the word portability. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Wed, 17.07.13 22:35, Ding Yi Chen (dc...@redhat.com) wrote: This should be simpler than forcing those stubborn mind (such as me) to change, No? We don't force anyone. You can just install rsyslog and you have everything as you love it. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Wed, 17.07.13 23:36, Michael Catanzaro (mike.catanz...@gmail.com) wrote: On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 14:58 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: We ask this constantly on Fedora. Because Fedora is where innovation is supposed to take place, not where things are stay frozen in carbonite forever. (And let's never forget that Fedora is not the pioneer here. ArchLinux went journal-only already. We are not actually the innovators here, we just follow.) I believe openSUSE 12.3 does not install syslog anymore either. (I think they decided they did not want to log everything twice? :) Fedora's following this time. They do still install syslog. ArchLinux doesn't anymore however. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Thu, 2013-07-18 at 14:17 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: I believe openSUSE 12.3 does not install syslog anymore either. (I think they decided they did not want to log everything twice? :) Fedora's following this time. Hm OK. They definitely dropped it from the default install late last year (caused a bit of a stir) and from a quick check online it looked like they had not reversed that choice, but I didn't check an actual system. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
Le Mar 16 juillet 2013 18:42, Lennart Poettering a écrit : On Tue, 16.07.13 18:09, Till Maas (opensou...@till.name) wrote: On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 01:43:04PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Tue, 16.07.13 09:42, Till Maas (opensou...@till.name) wrote: journalctl only supports local time specifications when you specify calendar times. Unfortunately there's no nice API to map calendar times that include time zone specifications back to UTC, in particular because the time zone names are not unique... While it will be hard to support arbitrary timezone specs in --since= it should be relatively easy to support UTC in addition to the local timezone. Added this to the TODO list. You only need to add or subtract hours and minutes from the local time, because ISO 8601 dates contain the UTC offset: | $ date --iso-8601=seconds | 2013-07-15T22:37:04+0200 Well, we can certainly add support for such numeric timezone specs (added to the TODO list), but I have my doubts that this is actually what people want to use in their day-to-day use, given that the numbers are hard to remember. Thank you. I am pretty sure that most folks would like to specify symbolic timezone names, but that's hard to do due to lack of APIs for that, and the non-uniqueness of the names. I guess for most use cases using the local time zone is enough. Btw. can journalctl output ISO 8601 dates instead of the US formated date without a year? I really expected journalctl to cleanup this as well. In the default output we stay true to the formatting that has been used in /var/log/messages since always. We currently do not use the ISO date format anywhere, it's not really readable, I think. It's not really readable because you're not used to seeing it. You're not used to seeing it because you (and others) have invented custom alternatives. Seems a self-inflicted problem to me (just like most of the UTF-8 is too complex, it's simpler to use _pet-endoding_ were) Great way to serialize dates, recurring and duration events to ascii strings for computers to read, but not really for humans. Note that in all other places we tend to use date format like this: Tue 2013-07-16 18:41:57 CEST Which is close to ISO, but not ISO. While replacing T with space is common (even though it will break field tokenization in many apps) Tue is a pure Englicism (useless in most parts of the world) and CEST will break interoperability (since people love to invent new names for time zones. That's why the ISO numeric adjustment is way saner). Also tend to means I'm not consistent and other apps and people can not rely on any specific convention when dealing with me -- Nicolas Mailhot -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
From: mzerq...@0pointer.de On Wed, 17.07.13 11:48, Bill Nottingham (nott...@redhat.com) wrote: john.flor...@dart.biz (john.flor...@dart.biz) said: You can provide binary path (_EXE=) by ”journalctl /usr/sbin/sshd”. Yes, but that's of little help with applications using interpreted languages (e.g., python). I want to match on the name of the python program, not python itself. journalctl _COMM=blah works for me on F19. Also, to mention this explicitly: there is command line completion for this. I.e. type journalctl _CO, press Tab, and it will autocomplete to journalctl _COMM=, then press Tab Tab and it shows you a list of all values that so far have been recorded. This is realy, really useful actually. Huh. Given how it seems that I hit Tab nearly every other keystroke I'm surprised I hadn't stumbled onto that yet. Probably because I haven't gotten much into the habit of filtering with these terms. I'm still so pleased just having -u (and the wonderful extra info conveyed via color) that it's hard to grumble about much else. :-) I may have avoided these largely because I knew it would take time to learn the various names. But now I know I can journalctl _ TabTab and have an instant refresher. Thanks for such a well-done tool. -- John Florian -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
Once upon a time, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson johan...@gmail.com said:
Currently we are shipping around 550 - 600 components that ship
services/daemons most but probably not all can use syslog but may
not be configured to do so which may or may not be affect by the act
of changing to binary logger I guess depending on which IETF syslog
standards that binary logger supports?
Lots of programs don't use syslog because it isn't sufficient for their
needs. For some, there is not liable to be any common logging setup
that will work for them.
However, as I've said repeatedly, your yum whatprovides check is flat
wrong, and so is your repeated 550-600 components claim. If you look at
the number of packages that provide something in /var/log (rather than
your bogus number of entries under /var/log check), it comes to a much
smaller number.
I come up with 216 packages (in F18) that put files under /var/log.
However, even that number is inflated; some of those are not an issue.
A few examples:
- setup: has /var/log/lastlog
- util-linux: also has /var/log/lastlog
- initscripts: has /var/log/{w,b}tmp
- pam: has /var/log/tallylog
- ntp: puts stats in /var/log/ntpstats
- sendmail: puts stats in /var/log/mail
That's just a few I recognize and/or am familiar with. I'm sure there
are others that provide something under /var/log that have absolutely no
issue related to logging (/var/log is sometimes used as a catch-all for
things that change a lot).
Please stop with the 600 package scare number.
And as we all know log files are used for audits, for evidence in
legal actions, for incident response, to reduce liability, and for
various legal and regulatory compliance reasons so so we need to
look into log alerting and parsing tools like but not limited
to...||
That is a completely different requirement; if you want to look at
auditable logging, that is way outside the scope of rsyslog vs.
journald (since neither is any different with respect to security).
Bringing that into a discussion of whether to remove syslog is far more
off-topic than bikeshedding about the journalctl output, options, etc.
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Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/17/2013 03:35 PM, Chuck Anderson wrote: On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 03:30:20PM +0200, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 08:56:45AM -0400, Chuck Anderson wrote: Is there a way to read binary journals from non-Linux OSes? Compiling journalctl on UINXy OSes should not be too much of a problem. You'd need dbus = 1.4.0, libcap, liblzma (if used by the journal files in question). Not trivial but certainly doable. Zbyszek I was more thinking of the typical home use case, where a user has installed Fedora alongside Windows or Mac OS. My use case is using a different Linux distro for trouble shooting, either installed alongside Fedora[1] or booting it from usb-stick/CD/DVD [2] or external HD[3]. Ralf [1] Often older versions of Fedora or CentOS. [2] e.g. systemrescuecd [3] There has been a time, I carried around a customized CentOS installation on external HD just for troubleshooting. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/18/2013 01:30 PM, Chris Adams wrote:
However, as I've said repeatedly, your yum whatprovides check is flat
wrong, and so is your repeated 550-600 components claim. If you look at
the number of packages that provide something in /var/log (rather than
your bogus number of entries under /var/log check), it comes to a much
smaller number.
I dont know why you continue to claim that I'm dealing with bullshit
numbers
F18 units, sys V initscripts thus services/daemons
$ repoquery --whatprovides '/usr/lib/systemd/system/*' --qf %{name} |
sort -u | wc -l
569
Legacy sysv initscrips
$ repoquery --whatprovides '/etc/rc.d/init.d/*' --qf %{name} | sort -u
| egrep -v '(-sysvinit|-initscript|-sysv)$' | wc -l
166
Total number of units/sysV initscripts/daemon in F18 = 762
You running
$ repoquery --whatprovides '/var/log/*' --qf %{name} | sort -u | wc -l
219
Only proves that out of that 762 only 219 of those might be providing
files /var/log ( while in fact that number ain't accurate in relation to
unit,services and daemons )
Let's shave off 200 units due to them not being type service units and
multiple units or legacy sysv inscription might be shipped in the same
package which gives you 550 - 600 components range I was talking about...
Go through those 550 - 600 components and see how many of those for
example are shipping log files, logrotation and logwatch files when they
should or should not...
JBG
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Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Thu, 18.07.13 14:56, Nicolas Mailhot (nicolas.mail...@laposte.net) wrote: In the default output we stay true to the formatting that has been used in /var/log/messages since always. We currently do not use the ISO date format anywhere, it's not really readable, I think. It's not really readable because you're not used to seeing it. You're not used to seeing it because you (and others) have invented custom alternatives. Seems a self-inflicted problem to me (just like most of the UTF-8 is too complex, it's simpler to use _pet-endoding_ were) No, it's not readable, because it's just not readable. It doesn't include whitespace as separators, which could help people to read the string. It also doesn't include day of week information which is highly interesting to most people. But anyway, I understand you like ISO, and think it is readable. I don't agree, but we just have to agree to disagree on this one. It might thrill you though to learn that I just commited a patch by Tomasz that adds an ISO output mode to journalctl. journalctl -o short-iso is your friend. And the nice thing: you can actually switch forth and back with this at display time! Instead of choosing your date format before the log files are written, you can actually choose at display time! How awesome is that? Great way to serialize dates, recurring and duration events to ascii strings for computers to read, but not really for humans. Note that in all other places we tend to use date format like this: Tue 2013-07-16 18:41:57 CEST Which is close to ISO, but not ISO. While replacing T with space is common (even though it will break field tokenization in many apps) Tue is a pure Englicism (useless in most parts of the world) and CEST will break interoperability (since people love to invent new names for time zones. That's why the ISO numeric adjustment is way saner). The Tue is actually in your local language based on system locale. Hence for you mar. or so. Also tend to means I'm not consistent and other apps and people can not rely on any specific convention when dealing with me Well, if you think we are generally confused and unreliable folks, then go ahead and think that. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/18/2013 08:09 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Wed, 17.07.13 22:35, Ding Yi Chen (dc...@redhat.com) wrote: This should be simpler than forcing those stubborn mind (such as me) to change, No? We don't force anyone. You can just install rsyslog and you have everything as you love it. Lennart Or you can de-install rsyslog and have everything as you love it. -- Stephen Clark *NetWolves* Director of Technology Phone: 813-579-3200 Fax: 813-882-0209 Email: steve.cl...@netwolves.com http://www.netwolves.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
From: scl...@netwolves.com On 07/18/2013 08:09 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Wed, 17.07.13 22:35, Ding Yi Chen (dc...@redhat.com) wrote: This should be simpler than forcing those stubborn mind (such as me)to change, No? We don't force anyone. You can just install rsyslog and you have everything as you love it. Lennart Or you can de-install rsyslog and have everything as you love it. Which makes more sense: take a default and modify it via composition ... or take a default and modify it via decomposition? I'd always choose the former, regardless of the case or how convenient it was to me. -- John Florian -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Steve Clark scl...@netwolves.com wrote: On 07/18/2013 08:09 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Wed, 17.07.13 22:35, Ding Yi Chen (dc...@redhat.com) wrote: This should be simpler than forcing those stubborn mind (such as me) to change, No? We don't force anyone. You can just install rsyslog and you have everything as you love it. Lennart Or you can de-install rsyslog and have everything as you love it. +1 At long last, someone has come up with the most concise, sane solution to this. Thanks Steve. Someone should really document how to uninstall syslog. Knowing how could have saved a lot of people a lot of time -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 1:56 AM, James Hogarth james.hoga...@gmail.com wrote: Oh how do you get your logs to read in windows from your lvm/ext4/btrfs filesystems currently in a disk boot scenario? Using ext2fsd: http://www.ext2fsd.com ... I'd suggest you read that page and then look at my question and think real hard... Maybe your question is poorly stated, then. What I thought you asked was how to read Linux log files from a Windows installation, e.g., when Linux fails to boot. In the past I've been able to do that using ext2fsd without much difficulty. I used that method when I wasn't able to boot a rescue or live CD, and the last resort would have been to pull the hard drive from the machine and use a different computer to inspect it. But if /var/log/messages is not made available by default, then using ext2fsd won't work, and other methods become more difficult also. My main complaint is that removing the default syslog to /var/log/messages makes it harder for me to diagnose broken machines that OTHER people have set up, because those other people aren't going to have installed a non-default syslog daemon. Certainly if it's a machine I'm installing, I'll know to install syslog. Eric -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 09:51:32AM -0600, Eric Smith wrote: What I thought you asked was how to read Linux log files from a Windows installation, e.g., when Linux fails to boot. In the past I've been able to do that using ext2fsd without much difficulty. I used that method when I wasn't able to boot a rescue or live CD, and the last resort would have been to pull the hard drive from the machine and use a different computer to inspect it. But if /var/log/messages is not made available by default, then using ext2fsd won't work, and other methods become more difficult also. I think this case is relatively obscure, but as with RHEL6, it would be nice to have a journal file viewer for Windows. -- Matthew Miller ☁☁☁ Fedora Cloud Architect ☁☁☁ mat...@fedoraproject.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/18/2013 03:55 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 09:51:32AM -0600, Eric Smith wrote: What I thought you asked was how to read Linux log files from a Windows installation, e.g., when Linux fails to boot. In the past I've been able to do that using ext2fsd without much difficulty. I used that method when I wasn't able to boot a rescue or live CD, and the last resort would have been to pull the hard drive from the machine and use a different computer to inspect it. But if /var/log/messages is not made available by default, then using ext2fsd won't work, and other methods become more difficult also. I think this case is relatively obscure, but as with RHEL6, it would be nice to have a journal file viewer for Windows. Why not read this files on another Fedora host ( or some other distro that uses systemd )? What's the reason for this hard dependency on Windows? JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 12:23:33PM +0200, Denys Vlasenko wrote: What's inappropriate is giving instructions to others what they can, or can not say. Even better would be to take this sort of stuff off list asap. -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 18 July 2013 16:51, Eric Smith brouh...@fedoraproject.org wrote: Maybe your question is poorly stated, then. What I thought you asked was how to read Linux log files from a Windows installation, e.g., when Linux fails to boot. This is indeed the question - so given you understood it so it seems I would say that it was not poorly stated. In the past I've been able to do that using ext2fsd without much difficulty. This will not work depending on ext4 options, if LVM is in use or if BTRFS is used which is of course now supported as an option in the installer. I used that method when I wasn't able to boot a rescue or live CD, Then you were not using it with a default installed Fedora anyway which has a default of LVM in place and the last resort would have been to pull the hard drive from the machine and use a different computer to inspect it. That or live media is the best option in general... I know above you said you couldn't use a live CD and I'm quite curious as to why. But if /var/log/messages is not made available by default, then using ext2fsd won't work, and other methods become more difficult also. It already won't work for a default installed Fedora ... there is no difference. My main complaint is that removing the default syslog to /var/log/messages makes it harder for me to diagnose broken machines that OTHER people have set up, because those other people aren't going to have installed a non-default syslog daemon. Certainly if it's a machine I'm installing, I'll know to install syslog. Well fortunately you pay attention to these lists so you know to look at the README and if /var/log/messages is not there (or if Fedora in general now) you should use journalctl instead... -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 03:54:49PM +, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: I've been able to do that using ext2fsd without much difficulty. I used that method when I wasn't able to boot a rescue or live CD, and the last resort would have been to pull the hard drive from the machine and use a different computer to inspect it. But if /var/log/messages is not made available by default, then using ext2fsd won't work, and other methods become more difficult also. I think this case is relatively obscure, but as with RHEL6, it would be nice to have a journal file viewer for Windows. Why not read this files on another Fedora host ( or some other distro that uses systemd )? What's the reason for this hard dependency on Windows? I think the use case here is dual-boot system where the Fedora installation is somehow broken but the Windows boot works. -- Matthew Miller ☁☁☁ Fedora Cloud Architect ☁☁☁ mat...@fedoraproject.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/18/2013 04:23 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 03:54:49PM +, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: I've been able to do that using ext2fsd without much difficulty. I used that method when I wasn't able to boot a rescue or live CD, and the last resort would have been to pull the hard drive from the machine and use a different computer to inspect it. But if /var/log/messages is not made available by default, then using ext2fsd won't work, and other methods become more difficult also. I think this case is relatively obscure, but as with RHEL6, it would be nice to have a journal file viewer for Windows. Why not read this files on another Fedora host ( or some other distro that uses systemd )? What's the reason for this hard dependency on Windows? I think the use case here is dual-boot system where the Fedora installation is somehow broken but the Windows boot works. If you have physical access to the machine you should be able to access those journal files from within dracut shell. If not that something we need to look at and solve I would think. JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Thu, 18.07.13 17:11, James Hogarth (james.hoga...@gmail.com) wrote: On 18 July 2013 16:51, Eric Smith brouh...@fedoraproject.org wrote: Maybe your question is poorly stated, then. What I thought you asked was how to read Linux log files from a Windows installation, e.g., when Linux fails to boot. This is indeed the question - so given you understood it so it seems I would say that it was not poorly stated. In the past I've been able to do that using ext2fsd without much difficulty. This will not work depending on ext4 options, if LVM is in use or if BTRFS is used which is of course now supported as an option in the installer. Actually, it's worse. The driver requires you to turn of driver signature verification of Windows. That's just a huge mess. (Also, it doesn't support the current Windows version). I don't think that using ext2fsd is possible without much difficulty. It's great that such a tool exists, but it's a hacker tool, for somebody who is willing to alter his Windows installations in non-trivial ways. I am pretty sure that just downloading an ISO of the latest Fedora livecd and dd'ing it to an USB disk is a ton more fun that the ext2fsd dance, and is a lot more comprehensive with its LVM, LUKS, btrfs support that pretty much just works. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 9:54 AM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson johan...@gmail.com wrote: Why not read this files on another Fedora host ( or some other distro that uses systemd )? What's the reason for this hard dependency on Windows? Because I was about six hundred miles away from my office, didn't want to take the user's computer apart if I could avoid it, and didn't have a drive dock to hook up the user's drive to my laptop. The user had Windows available on the machine, so I took advantage of it to figure out what was wrong with Linux and fix it. Eric -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 10:11 AM, James Hogarth james.hoga...@gmail.com wrote: Then you were not using it with a default installed Fedora anyway which has a default of LVM in place I don't remember why there wasn't LVM. I don't remember whether I was the one that installed Linux on that machine in the first place. I might have been. That or live media is the best option in general... I know above you said you couldn't use a live CD and I'm quite curious as to why. The machine didn't have a working optical drive. If I'd had a live image on USB that probably would have worked. If I hadn't been hundreds of miles from the nearest computer store, I'd have just bought another optical drive, or a drive dock, or a cable to use the optical drive out of my laptop, or any number of things that would have made it easier to solve the problem. I was motivated to try to solve it using only what happened to be at hand. Eric -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 18 Jul 2013 18:42, Eric Smith brouh...@fedoraproject.org wrote: Because I was about six hundred miles away from my office, didn't want to take the user's computer apart if I could avoid it, and didn't have a drive dock to hook up the user's drive to my laptop. The user had Windows available on the machine, so I took advantage of it to figure out what was wrong with Linux and fix it. Without sounding too blunt I hope this does sound like we're entering the territory of lack of planning on your part does not constitute and emergency on mine as I have to occasionally remind people at work... This is such an extreme use case and as pointed out by Lennart as well is not viable on current systems anyway without huge hoop jumping... This hack of a workaround you attempted once can no way realistically be considered a blocker to this as it's so far off a support matrix it's almost comical to suggest it as such... You could have used his windows partition to download a live CD and use that as a less fragile solution that would be less likely to cause filesystem corruption and work with a default fedora on lvm and so on... Which as pointed out your workaround would not. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 04:23:54PM -0500, Billy Crook wrote: What about a special filesystem mounted at /var/log or filesystem trickery therein that presents contents similar to what everyone expects, backed out of journalctl and its storage then? It's probably straightforward to write a FUSE filesystem that grabs the needed information from journalctl when read. Mount it somewhere under /run and set up /var/log/messages as a symlink to the corresponding file. But I don't see the point. Just install rsyslog. It's not going away any time soon. Lars -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
Le Jeu 18 juillet 2013 19:56, James Hogarth a écrit : Without sounding too blunt I hope this does sound like we're entering the territory of lack of planning on your part does not constitute and emergency on mine as I have to occasionally remind people at work... This is such an extreme use case and as pointed out by Lennart as well is not viable on current systems anyway without huge hoop jumping... Without sounding too blunt, this is business as usual from a repair end-user system point of view. I had dozens of such oh btw can you fix my system experiences -- Nicolas Mailhot -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 18 July 2013 19:26, Nicolas Mailhot nicolas.mail...@laposte.net wrote: Without sounding too blunt, this is business as usual from a repair end-user system point of view. I had dozens of such oh btw can you fix my system experiences Yeah I've been there in the past ... which is why I have spare USB pen drives in my rucksack - some empty some with a live instance already on there... And if going to diagnose/repair a Linux system it'd be sane to grab a centos and fedora live instance before heading out ... It's just part of the toolset - just as screwdrivers and so on are as well for many engineers ... I've also been there with dodgy hacky workarounds to deal with strange stuff - but I wouldn't expect it to weight in an argument for something like this ... -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 12:31:56PM -0400, Steve Clark wrote: What about scripts that use /usr/bin/logger? Do messages generated by this utility end up in the journal? Or php scripts, or programs using syslog(3). Yes, everything using standard syslog facilities ends up in the journal. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
Le Jeu 18 juillet 2013 20:34, James Hogarth a écrit : I've also been there with dodgy hacky workarounds to deal with strange stuff - but I wouldn't expect it to weight in an argument for something like this ... Why not? In the imperfect world we live in, I'm quite sure they comprise a large part of the home linux market. Linux is solid server-side but the desktop-side is far from there (and has been busy dismantling the bits that made server linux reliable) -- Nicolas Mailhot -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
john.flor...@dart.biz (john.flor...@dart.biz) said: Or you can de-install rsyslog and have everything as you love it. Which makes more sense: take a default and modify it via composition ... or take a default and modify it via decomposition? I'd always choose the former, regardless of the case or how convenient it was to me. Exactly - adding to the minimal install is generally always a supported operation. Removing from the minimal install is always a 'buyer beware' or 'you get both pieces' operation. (Also, I do wonder if those who suggest unchecking rsyslog *in anaconda* do regular interactive installs. That's not been offered for quite some time now outside of kickstart.) Bill -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Thu, 2013-07-18 at 10:59 -0400, Steve Clark wrote: On 07/18/2013 08:09 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Wed, 17.07.13 22:35, Ding Yi Chen (dc...@redhat.com) wrote: This should be simpler than forcing those stubborn mind (such as me) to change, No? We don't force anyone. You can just install rsyslog and you have everything as you love it. Lennart Or you can de-install rsyslog and have everything as you love it. Yes, that is indeed the decision we are trying to make. The point is that for _either_ side to describe the _other_ side as trying to 'force' anything on anyone is disingenuous. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
- Original Message - john.flor...@dart.biz (john.flor...@dart.biz) said: Or you can de-install rsyslog and have everything as you love it. Which makes more sense: take a default and modify it via composition ... or take a default and modify it via decomposition? I'd always choose the former, regardless of the case or how convenient it was to me. Taking your words seriously, the most sensible default is only install the core, nothing else. You want network? install network drivers, GUI? install desktop environment/WM. Show your languages? Install language support. For Next-Next-Ok type of users, this default will lead them just a .. core. No pretty GUI. :-) Exactly - adding to the minimal install is generally always a supported operation. Removing from the minimal install is always a 'buyer beware' or 'you get both pieces' operation. Didn't Jesse Keating said something like we don't offer minimal install other than uncheck the all boxes? Default is just an environment that most people expected to have, its much bigger that the minimal install. (Also, I do wonder if those who suggest unchecking rsyslog *in anaconda* do regular interactive installs. That's not been offered for quite some time now outside of kickstart.) That's because it is in core, which is always hidden from users. You can move it to standard and make it default. -- Ding-Yi Chen Software Engineer Internationalization Group DID: +61 7 3514 8239 Email: dc...@redhat.com Red Hat, Asia-Pacific Pty Ltd Level 1, 193 North Quay Brisbane 4000 Office: +61 7 3514 8100 Fax: +61 7 3514 8199 Website: www.redhat.com Red Hat, Inc. Facebook: Red Hat APAC | Red Hat Japan | Red Hat Korea | JBoss APAC Twitter: Red Hat APAC | Red Hat ANZ LinkedIn: Red Hat APAC | JBoss APAC -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
- Original Message - On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 14:58 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: We ask this constantly on Fedora. Because Fedora is where innovation is supposed to take place, not where things are stay frozen in carbonite forever. (And let's never forget that Fedora is not the pioneer here. ArchLinux went journal-only already. We are not actually the innovators here, we just follow.) I believe openSUSE 12.3 does not install syslog anymore either. (I think they decided they did not want to log everything twice? :) Fedora's following this time. http://doc.opensuse.org/documentation/html/openSUSE/opensuse-tuning/cha.tuning.logfiles.html Looks like they either still have /var/log/messages, or their documentation team are lazy. -- Ding-Yi Chen Software Engineer Internationalization Group DID: +61 7 3514 8239 Email: dc...@redhat.com Red Hat, Asia-Pacific Pty Ltd Level 1, 193 North Quay Brisbane 4000 Office: +61 7 3514 8100 Fax: +61 7 3514 8199 Website: www.redhat.com Red Hat, Inc. Facebook: Red Hat APAC | Red Hat Japan | Red Hat Korea | JBoss APAC Twitter: Red Hat APAC | Red Hat ANZ LinkedIn: Red Hat APAC | JBoss APAC -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
Hi On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Ding Yi Chen wrote: http://doc.opensuse.org/documentation/html/openSUSE/opensuse-tuning/cha.tuning.logfiles.html Looks like they either still have /var/log/messages, or their documentation team are lazy. Be careful about such assumptions. There are bugs in the Fedora documentation as well and you wouldn't want anyone implying that the Fedora docs team is lazy. If you want to actually confirm, download the ISO and check. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
- Original Message - On Wed, 17.07.13 22:08, Ding Yi Chen (dc...@redhat.com) wrote: Well, this won't break systems as the change is only for new installations. Existing systems will stay exactly as they are, rsyslog stays installed, and will work as always. 1. What if they update the system like this: Backed up user data/script - Fresh install - Restore user data/script For that, it won't work. In such a case, you already need to manually reinstall all packages you need beyond the default set after the reinstallation. The fewest people probably stick to exactly the set of packages we install by default for their systems. rsyslog is now one more of those packages you need to reinstall after your system is back up. In that setting, users usually start with default choose the packages they EXPLICITLY want to install/remove, they are very likely to assume that the rest of the system environment, including /var/log/messages will still be there. Besides, rsyslog is in core, which is hidden from users and most of them are unaware what the rsyslog actually do and generated. 2. Like other already point out, Windows/Fedora dual boot. You can see /var/log/messages from Windows, but how can you get journalctl output in Windows? Well, as pointed out before, journalctl on Windows helps little if you cannot access the Linux partitions in the first place, because they are ext4 or btrfs. Do some web search, and you will find out there are handful utility let you read ext4 partitions. I've used http://www.fs-driver.org/ and it can read ext3 partitions, BTW. Please update your knowledge, see: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=428097 They have /var/log/messages, yes, it might be different with ours. But yes, they have that. So, they store different stuff in it. The interesting stuff is mostly in daemon.log on Debian. So with your suggested program you'd miss out all the interesting bit son Debian. This stuff is certainly not standardized on Unix systems... a) If debian output the thing I want in /var/log/messages anyway, why should I care whether other daemon output in other files? Well, most likely it won't include the interesting bits, because they are in daemon.log. Didn't I say I don't care other daemons output to any other files (including daemon.log)? I mean, you claim that all distros have /var/log/messages and that that's where the interesting stuff goes. And that is simply not true. No ifs, it's just simply not true. Did I claim that all distros and OSes have /var/log/messages? DOS and Windows don't have it. Happy now? Let's talk about the system that do have and use /var/log/messages, like Fedora 19 and RHEL6. How do you deal with the programs that write for either or both that use /var/log/messages. Do a grep -cslR '/var/log/messages' /usr you will have a brief idea what's the problem size. b) If my environment only contains RHEL and Fedora, why should I care how Debian, Arch and Ubuntu handle their logs? Well, journalctl has been available for some time already on Fedora, and will be in RHEL7 too, so you shouldn't be too concerned there. Please note that RHEL6 and RHEL5 are still in their life cycle. And they are unlikely to have journalctl. Innovation should not be the cost of reliability and portability. This change touches neither. /var/log/messages already isn't standard in whether it exists at all, and what it contains, so we certainly don't make portability worse... Something is not standard does not mean nobody using it. No it doesn't. Every package in the Fedora archive is used by somebody, but that doesn't mean we install *all* packages always. We try to install a default set that tries neither to be minimal, nor to include everything possible. Something that one can work with and that has little redundancy. The problem is, to you, /var/log/messages is redundant, but for others, it is not. By the react of the mailling list and the results from grep the system, it is still used by those. Are you sure you are not going to break those? Have you tested those? Especially it is there quite a long time. Remove it simply break their expectation and scripts. For that, you do make the portability worse. No, not true by any definition of the word portability. Yes, right, you simply let those programs and documents lost their portability. :-P -- Ding-Yi Chen Software Engineer Internationalization Group DID: +61 7 3514 8239 Email: dc...@redhat.com Red Hat, Asia-Pacific Pty Ltd Level 1, 193 North Quay Brisbane 4000 Office: +61 7 3514 8100 Fax: +61 7 3514 8199 Website: www.redhat.com Red Hat, Inc. Facebook: Red Hat APAC | Red Hat Japan | Red Hat Korea | JBoss APAC Twitter: Red Hat APAC | Red Hat ANZ LinkedIn: Red Hat APAC | JBoss APAC -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
- Original Message - On Wed, 17.07.13 22:35, Ding Yi Chen (dc...@redhat.com) wrote: This should be simpler than forcing those stubborn mind (such as me) to change, No? We don't force anyone. You can just install rsyslog and you have everything as you love it. And we don't force anyone to keep rsyslog, you can just remove rsyslog and you have everything as you love it. -- Ding-Yi Chen Software Engineer Internationalization Group DID: +61 7 3514 8239 Email: dc...@redhat.com Red Hat, Asia-Pacific Pty Ltd Level 1, 193 North Quay Brisbane 4000 Office: +61 7 3514 8100 Fax: +61 7 3514 8199 Website: www.redhat.com Red Hat, Inc. Facebook: Red Hat APAC | Red Hat Japan | Red Hat Korea | JBoss APAC Twitter: Red Hat APAC | Red Hat ANZ LinkedIn: Red Hat APAC | JBoss APAC -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
- Original Message - Hi On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Ding Yi Chen wrote: http://doc.opensuse.org/documentation/html/openSUSE/opensuse-tuning/cha.tuning.logfiles.html Looks like they either still have /var/log/messages, or their documentation team are lazy. Be careful about such assumptions. There are bugs in the Fedora documentation as well and you wouldn't want anyone implying that the Fedora docs team is lazy. If you want to actually confirm, download the ISO and check. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Thanks for point this out. I am sorry if any one is offended. (Download ISO and check? No, I am lazy.) -- Ding-Yi Chen Software Engineer Internationalization Group DID: +61 7 3514 8239 Email: dc...@redhat.com Red Hat, Asia-Pacific Pty Ltd Level 1, 193 North Quay Brisbane 4000 Office: +61 7 3514 8100 Fax: +61 7 3514 8199 Website: www.redhat.com Red Hat, Inc. Facebook: Red Hat APAC | Red Hat Japan | Red Hat Korea | JBoss APAC Twitter: Red Hat APAC | Red Hat ANZ LinkedIn: Red Hat APAC | JBoss APAC -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 09:26:22PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 6:13 PM, Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org wrote: On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 08:58:40PM -0400, Ding Yi Chen wrote: You still have not addressed the third party programs and scripts that monitor /var/log/messages A) If someone is installing a program that expects this file, they can also install rsyslog. So? The same argument could be made for programs that expect the binary journal. No it isn't. It was already said: journald is here always, rsyslog is optional. The question is: should we install optional rsyslog by default? -- Tomasz Torcz Morality must always be based on practicality. xmpp: zdzich...@chrome.pl-- Baron Vladimir Harkonnen -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 11:08 PM, Ding Yi Chen dc...@redhat.com wrote: Don't tell me that you have not seen people writing multiple platform scripts like this: case $OS) Windows* ) some_windows_scripts .. Linux* ) grep /var/log/messages . For them: What? Fedora 20 does not work while Fedora 19 does? Blame Fedora then. And for fedora specific 3rd party scripts, now they need to add additional check logic on their script. Sometime that's just too much to ask. How about this idea. Before No Defualt Syslog, systemd needs to completely replicate all functionality provided by syslog, including /var/log/messages, by default. Syslog emulation would be an option, and if people don't want it, they can still turn that option off. But by default, everyone can still grep /var/log/messages. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/17/2013 12:58 AM, Ding Yi Chen wrote: You still have not addressed the third party programs and scripts that monitor /var/log/messages We honestly cant keep progress and cleanup in the distribution back out of fear of breaking some third party programs. JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Wednesday 17 July 2013 03:20:42 Lennart Poettering wrote: As mentioned before, if people run programs that require /var/log/messages they should simply install rsyslog and be done with it. That terribly sounds like my way or the high way. Many people have raised concerns not only about having /var/log/messages in the base installation but about needing/wanting *simple text* logs by default as well. I for one, advocate against having to use a (forced)tool to read log files. Even when you think it's better, many *do not*. Regards, Marc Deop -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 09:21:39AM +, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: On 07/17/2013 12:58 AM, Ding Yi Chen wrote: You still have not addressed the third party programs and scripts that monitor /var/log/messages We honestly cant keep progress and cleanup in the distribution back out of fear of breaking some third party programs. Irrespective of whether journald is good or bad, this is a dumb argument. The whole purpose of distros (of *computers*) is to run software, some of it not included in the distro, some it highly customized scripts that people have written themselves. Text log files are not some sort of esoteric feature that hardly anyone uses. Rich. -- Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones virt-df lists disk usage of guests without needing to install any software inside the virtual machine. Supports Linux and Windows. http://people.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-df/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/17/2013 12:05 PM, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 09:21:39AM +, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: On 07/17/2013 12:58 AM, Ding Yi Chen wrote: You still have not addressed the third party programs and scripts that monitor /var/log/messages We honestly cant keep progress and cleanup in the distribution back out of fear of breaking some third party programs. Irrespective of whether journald is good or bad, this is a dumb argument. Dumb I see so you have established a time frame for us how long we should hold back progress in the project and or you have devised an implementation plan on features and cleanups with a rate that a third party can keep up with in the distribution, maybe even chosen which third parties we wait for and which we dont? You think it's good for the community to be dependent on third party I dont since think we should first and foremost be thinking about ourselves and our community not some third party of the interweb or even a downstream distribution to us like like RHEL. We as a community need to be able to set the pace for ourselves and the fact is unless you are closed source the best thing you can do as a third party is actually participate in the Fedoraproject, packaging you software or application stack and ship it within the distribution so that our existing processes will catch any fallout which our features or cleanups might bring and allow for the community to actually fix it with your or for you. JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/15/2013 11:53 PM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: On 07/15/2013 09:26 PM, Jonathan Masters wrote: On Jul 15, 2013, at 5:11, Miroslav Suchý msu...@redhat.com wrote: On 07/15/2013 10:44 AM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: = Proposed System Wide Change: No Default Syslog = https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/NoDefaultSyslog Change owner(s): Lennart Poettering lennart at poettering net, Matthew Miller mattdm at fedoraproject org No longer install a traditional syslog service by default. (Specifically, remove rsyslog from the @core or @standard groups in comps.) The systemd journal will be the default logging solution. Rsyslog, Syslog-NG, and even traditional sysklogd will continue to cover use cases outside of the default. My voice may be one of thousands, but I'm saying: I want to have traditional syslog service as default and have journal from systemd as option. I concur. I have systems that live in a heterogeneous environment and need traditional syslog. By making it optional, it will ultimately die, forcing journal as the only viable option in a Fedora environment. This is IMO not net beneficial for downstream use cases later on either. Has syslog-ng entirely died since rsyslogd has been the default? Anyway there really is no point in installing and running two loggers on embed/server/desktop wasting ram, diskspace and cpu cycles *for everybody* There is, and it was pointed out already several times on this thread: because admins need text logs in /var/log/messages instead of administrators simply adding rsyslog or syslog-ng manually at install time or to their ks snippets. And this too was answered several times already. The machine in question may be already borked. Our support people will need to figure out - over the phone or email! - what has happened on client's installation, and having traditional grep/sed/awk recipes not working anymore because /var/log/messages is not there anymore is an extremely unwelcome discovery in an emergency. You guys aren't administrators who are dealing with these problems every day. You don't feel the pain you create for other people. and quite frankly administrators that complain about journal have not actually tried it and experienced the flexibility the journactl gives them it truly is not as bad as some people are trying to make it out to be. False argument. People (on this thread) aren't complaining about journactl being a bad thing. They are complaining about /var/log/messages disappearing. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 12:06 PM, Marc Deop i Argemí m...@marcdeop.com wrote: On Wednesday 17 July 2013 03:20:42 Lennart Poettering wrote: As mentioned before, if people run programs that require /var/log/messages they should simply install rsyslog and be done with it. That terribly sounds like my way or the high way. Many people have raised concerns not only about having /var/log/messages in the base installation but about needing/wanting *simple text* logs by default as well. I for one, advocate against having to use a (forced)tool to read log files. Even when you think it's better, many *do not*. And many do ... so? -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/17/2013 12:36 PM, Denys Vlasenko wrote: You guys aren't administrators who are dealing with these problems every day. You don't feel the pain you create for other people. Well my job description for the last 10 years and my pay check says otherwise so I dont know what you are getting at... JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 2:36 PM, Denys Vlasenko dvlas...@redhat.com wrote: On 07/15/2013 11:53 PM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: On 07/15/2013 09:26 PM, Jonathan Masters wrote: On Jul 15, 2013, at 5:11, Miroslav Suchý msu...@redhat.com wrote: On 07/15/2013 10:44 AM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: = Proposed System Wide Change: No Default Syslog = https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/NoDefaultSyslog Change owner(s): Lennart Poettering lennart at poettering net, Matthew Miller mattdm at fedoraproject org No longer install a traditional syslog service by default. (Specifically, remove rsyslog from the @core or @standard groups in comps.) The systemd journal will be the default logging solution. Rsyslog, Syslog-NG, and even traditional sysklogd will continue to cover use cases outside of the default. My voice may be one of thousands, but I'm saying: I want to have traditional syslog service as default and have journal from systemd as option. I concur. I have systems that live in a heterogeneous environment and need traditional syslog. By making it optional, it will ultimately die, forcing journal as the only viable option in a Fedora environment. This is IMO not net beneficial for downstream use cases later on either. Has syslog-ng entirely died since rsyslogd has been the default? Anyway there really is no point in installing and running two loggers on embed/server/desktop wasting ram, diskspace and cpu cycles *for everybody* There is, and it was pointed out already several times on this thread: because admins need text logs in /var/log/messages No they don't. The admins needs logs to find out what happened. It does not matter which format they are stored in and where they are stored in. instead of administrators simply adding rsyslog or syslog-ng manually at install time or to their ks snippets. And this too was answered several times already. The machine in question may be already borked. Our support people will need to figure out - over the phone or email! - what has happened on client's installation, and having traditional grep/sed/awk recipes not working anymore because /var/log/messages is not there anymore is an extremely unwelcome discovery in an emergency. You can use grep / sed / awk on the jounrnal output as well. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/17/2013 02:41 PM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: On 07/17/2013 12:36 PM, Denys Vlasenko wrote: You guys aren't administrators who are dealing with these problems every day. You don't feel the pain you create for other people. Well my job description for the last 10 years and my pay check says otherwise so I dont know what you are getting at... I'm saying that systemd developers are not full-time admins who troubleshoot and repair other people's Linux installations remotely. If they were, they would see why just install rsyslogd isn't a solution. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/17/2013 12:06 PM, Marc Deop i Argemí wrote: On Wednesday 17 July 2013 03:20:42 Lennart Poettering wrote: As mentioned before, if people run programs that require /var/log/messages they should simply install rsyslog and be done with it. That terribly sounds like my way or the high way. Many people have raised concerns not only about having /var/log/messages in the base installation but about needing/wanting *simple text* logs by default as well. I for one, advocate against having to use a (forced)tool to read log files. So do I. IMO, log files need to be readable without any special tools, because log files often are being read in cases of emergencies/breakdown (occasionally even from other OSes), when one can not rely on the tools being available or usable. Even when you think it's better, many *do not*. ACK- Ralf -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 02:52:40PM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 07/17/2013 12:06 PM, Marc Deop i Argemí wrote: On Wednesday 17 July 2013 03:20:42 Lennart Poettering wrote: As mentioned before, if people run programs that require /var/log/messages they should simply install rsyslog and be done with it. That terribly sounds like my way or the high way. Many people have raised concerns not only about having /var/log/messages in the base installation but about needing/wanting *simple text* logs by default as well. I for one, advocate against having to use a (forced)tool to read log files. So do I. IMO, log files need to be readable without any special tools, because log files often are being read in cases of emergencies/breakdown (occasionally even from other OSes), when one can not rely on the tools being available or usable. Even when you think it's better, many *do not*. ACK- Ralf Is there a way to read binary journals from non-Linux OSes? -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
Once upon a time, Marc Deop i Argemí m...@marcdeop.com said: On Wednesday 17 July 2013 03:20:42 Lennart Poettering wrote: As mentioned before, if people run programs that require /var/log/messages they should simply install rsyslog and be done with it. That terribly sounds like my way or the high way. That is Lennart's standard behavior. -- Chris Adams li...@cmadams.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/17/2013 02:45 PM, drago01 wrote: instead of administrators simply adding rsyslog or syslog-ng manually at install time or to their ks snippets. And this too was answered several times already. The machine in question may be already borked. Our support people will need to figure out - over the phone or email! - what has happened on client's installation, and having traditional grep/sed/awk recipes not working anymore because /var/log/messages is not there anymore is an extremely unwelcome discovery in an emergency. You can use grep / sed / awk on the jounrnal output as well. Please do read the text you are replying to. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Wed, 17.07.13 00:08, Ding Yi Chen (dc...@redhat.com) wrote: that monitor /var/log/messages A) If someone is installing a program that expects this file, they can also install rsyslog. a) From what command they know they need to install rsyslog if they want yum -y whatprovides /var/log/messages gives no result. If I did not follow the fedora-devel, I would not know why the scripts failed. The release notes addition we suggested in the feature page tells you what to do. The feature page also says we'll add /var/log/README explaining the situation. It would be useful actually if you raised these points only after reading the thread, because this has been discussed quite a few times already on this thread. b) For user that do upgrade from backup user data/scripts-fresh install-restore data/scrips How they suppose to know that /var/log/messages is gone without checking the Release-Notes? Not everyone have time to go through all the changes. If you look for the files, you should hopefully notice /var/log/README and understand. B) Fedora, RHEL, and most Red Hat derived distributions use /var/log/messages, but not all do -- for example, Rocks (common in HPC) breaks out syslog messages into individual files per facility. Debian and Ubuntu? Totally diferent. (/var/log/syslog) So, these third-party scripts need to be flexible anyway. I don't think this is a very strong point in the conversation. You falsely assume that: a) 3rd party developers support every operating systems under the sun, including all version of Windows, DOS and MacOS. b) 3rd party developers aware the changes c) 3rd party developers can and will diligently update their script just for Fedora. Well, but it is very simple: if the 3rd party developer notices the file is gone, he will look for them in /var/log, and hopefully see the README. If he doesn't he will likely start googling. And is likely to find something quickly, given that notoriety of this thread. We will continue to make changes in Fedora. We are the distribution which is supposed to bring you the new stuff first. This means changes, this means you need to keep yourself up-to-date a bit. This is just another iteration of this. If you never want any changes, then Fedora is simply not the distribution for you. Slackware might be. Don't tell me that you have not seen people writing multiple platform scripts like this: case $OS) Windows* ) some_windows_scripts .. Linux* ) grep /var/log/messages This *already* doesn't work. On Debian-based distros you would already have to grep /var/log/daemon.log. On ArchLinux-based distros you would already have to grep journalctl. I am sorry, but this is not where Unix was unified, ever. For them: What? Fedora 20 does not work while Fedora 19 does? Blame Fedora then. And for fedora specific 3rd party scripts, now they need to add additional check logic on their script. Sometime that's just too much to ask. We ask this constantly on Fedora. Because Fedora is where innovation is supposed to take place, not where things are stay frozen in carbonite forever. (And let's never forget that Fedora is not the pioneer here. ArchLinux went journal-only already. We are not actually the innovators here, we just follow.) Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Denys Vlasenko dvlas...@redhat.com wrote: On 07/17/2013 02:45 PM, drago01 wrote: instead of administrators simply adding rsyslog or syslog-ng manually at install time or to their ks snippets. And this too was answered several times already. The machine in question may be already borked. Our support people will need to figure out - over the phone or email! - what has happened on client's installation, and having traditional grep/sed/awk recipes not working anymore because /var/log/messages is not there anymore is an extremely unwelcome discovery in an emergency. You can use grep / sed / awk on the jounrnal output as well. Please do read the text you are replying to. I did. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Wed, 17.07.13 01:53, Billy Crook (billycr...@gmail.com) wrote: On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 11:08 PM, Ding Yi Chen dc...@redhat.com wrote: Don't tell me that you have not seen people writing multiple platform scripts like this: case $OS) Windows* ) some_windows_scripts .. Linux* ) grep /var/log/messages . For them: What? Fedora 20 does not work while Fedora 19 does? Blame Fedora then. And for fedora specific 3rd party scripts, now they need to add additional check logic on their script. Sometime that's just too much to ask. How about this idea. Before No Defualt Syslog, systemd needs to completely replicate all functionality provided by syslog, including /var/log/messages, by default. Syslog emulation would be an option, and if people don't want it, they can still turn that option off. But by default, everyone can still grep /var/log/messages. Not. Gonna. Happen. The journal is not an implementation of syslog, we already have that in rsyslog. Also, the feature is about ending the duplicate storage of the log messages, so your suggestion is completely against what the feature is about. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/17/2013 03:00 PM, drago01 wrote: On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Denys Vlasenko dvlas...@redhat.com wrote: On 07/17/2013 02:45 PM, drago01 wrote: instead of administrators simply adding rsyslog or syslog-ng manually at install time or to their ks snippets. And this too was answered several times already. The machine in question may be already borked. Our support people will need to figure out - over the phone or email! - what has happened on client's installation, and having traditional grep/sed/awk recipes not working anymore because /var/log/messages is not there anymore is an extremely unwelcome discovery in an emergency. You can use grep / sed / awk on the jounrnal output as well. Please do read the text you are replying to. I did. Okay, I will try explaining with an example. A support engineer receives a panicked call from a customer. Help, something wrong with our server!!!oneone. Engineer does not know what version of OS that server runs, what is installed there and how it is configured. So it needs to be investigated. Quite a typical situation. Engineer asks customer whether he has root login to the server. Customer has it. Then engineer asks to run tail /var/log/messages. Customer says: I see cannot open ‘/var/log/messages’: No such file or directory message. Great, isn't it? Engineer asks to run journalctl. Customer says: I see 'Input/output error' message. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Wed, 17.07.13 07:57, Chris Adams (li...@cmadams.net) wrote: Once upon a time, Marc Deop i Argemí m...@marcdeop.com said: On Wednesday 17 July 2013 03:20:42 Lennart Poettering wrote: As mentioned before, if people run programs that require /var/log/messages they should simply install rsyslog and be done with it. That terribly sounds like my way or the high way. That is Lennart's standard behavior. And the thread just went ugly. Not sure what the trigger for getting personal like this is. Do you feel we have the better arguments so you resort to this escape? It certainly isn't the brightest of your arguments if you turn a technical discussion into personal attacks. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/17/2013 12:50 PM, Denys Vlasenko wrote: On 07/17/2013 02:41 PM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: On 07/17/2013 12:36 PM, Denys Vlasenko wrote: You guys aren't administrators who are dealing with these problems every day. You don't feel the pain you create for other people. Well my job description for the last 10 years and my pay check says otherwise so I dont know what you are getting at... I'm saying that systemd developers are not full-time admins who troubleshoot and repair other people's Linux installations remotely. Nope that's why they are developers... If they were, they would see why just install rsyslogd isn't a solution. Well I as an administrator and speaking as such am not seeing how the journal or systemd for that matter is preventing that from still taking place either by using the tools that systemd have to offers or how it's preventing administrators from installing rsyslogd to continue to use it if they want to do so. I as an administrator actually love many of the plethora of administrator features systemd has to offer and I as an administrator do not have any trouble installing rsyslog or syslog-ng and configure it to be used in various infrastructures for clients. JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
Once upon a time, Lennart Poettering mzerq...@0pointer.de said: On Wed, 17.07.13 07:57, Chris Adams (li...@cmadams.net) wrote: Once upon a time, Marc Deop i Argemí m...@marcdeop.com said: That terribly sounds like my way or the high way. That is Lennart's standard behavior. And the thread just went ugly. Not sure what the trigger for getting personal like this is. Do you feel we have the better arguments so you resort to this escape? It certainly isn't the brightest of your arguments if you turn a technical discussion into personal attacks. I quote from your email yesterday: But anyway, the auto-paging thing is going to stay, you can talk about it as much as you want. Why? Simply because *I* love it. It's one awesome feature. You are welcome to disagree, but discussing this forth and back on fedora-devel is highly unlikely to change my mind on this. As long as I maintain it, this one feature definitely stays in. Sorry for that! How is that not my way or the highway? -- Chris Adams li...@cmadams.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 03:14:09PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Wed, 17.07.13 07:57, Chris Adams (li...@cmadams.net) wrote: That terribly sounds like my way or the high way. That is Lennart's standard behavior. And the thread just went ugly. Not sure what the trigger for getting personal like this is. Do you feel we have the better arguments so you resort to this escape? It certainly isn't the brightest of your arguments if you turn a technical discussion into personal attacks. Not. Gonna. Happen. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/17/2013 01:08 PM, Denys Vlasenko wrote: Engineer does not know what version of OS that server runs, what is installed there and how it is configured. So it needs to be investigated. Quite a typical situation. Perhaps for you but for us here on top of the world we dont grant root access to people that cant event tell which OS and which release that OS is running on so that's quite un-typical situation for me. JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/17/2013 03:21 PM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: On 07/17/2013 01:08 PM, Denys Vlasenko wrote: Engineer does not know what version of OS that server runs, what is installed there and how it is configured. So it needs to be investigated. Quite a typical situation. Perhaps for you but for us here on top of the world we dont grant root access to people that cant event tell which OS and which release that OS is running on so that's quite un-typical situation for me. I don't know about your organization, but ours is not arrogant enough to tell our customers - the people who buy our engineering support, and thus indirectly pay all our salaries, how, or who is allowed to run their servers. Because it's *their servers*. Not ours. IF they have incompetent admins, it's their problems. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
Le Mar 16 juillet 2013 13:54, Lennart Poettering a écrit : On Tue, 16.07.13 11:49, Nicolas Mailhot (nicolas.mail...@laposte.net) wrote: Le Lun 15 juillet 2013 20:09, Till Maas a écrit : Also it is sad that journalctl does not directly accept ISO 8601 time specifications (I can open a bug if there is a changes it will be implemented). +100 not using iso 8601 by default nowadays is insane, I've been slowly Thanks for calling me insane. I did not call anyone insane, I called a use insane, this is not the same thing. moving all the bits I could to iso 8601 in the past years and it's the same breath of fresh air as UTF-8 was compared to the legacy all-incompatible-with-each-other 8 bit encodings We looked into using ISO dates, especially for denoting repetition events, but quite frankly they are just not simple and intuitive to write. Expressions such as P1Y2M10DT2H30M/2008-05-11T15:30:00Z are not nice to write, nor even to read. Even though some parts of ISO 8601 may seem less natural than others, every time I had to dig a particular datetime problem it turned out the standard was actually well thought and the better custom alternatives all had nasty failure points (the biggest being plugging two apps that used a custom alternative always resulted in bugs that always appears at period limits no one tested completely for). While I don't suppose I'll be able to convince you not to try to invent something better, please at least make it possible for those of us who have been burned by those experiments to ignore yours and be able to work with systemd in iso 8601 mode. You might have noticed that most graphical programs (such as email programs) that want to show you a time will not do so in the ISO format either, but in a more local, user friendly presentation. That's because the ISO format is just not suitable for user presentation. The problem of those user friendly presentations is that not two of them are similar, so as soon as you're unlucky enough not to use an en_US locale (that they all fallback too) you'll get presentation discrepancies or even outright incompatibilities, bugs, or even indefinite behaviour when the software writer assumed you knew his pet format and didn't bother making explicit what his conventions were. I'll take iso 8601 standard over this user friendliness any time, thank you very much -- Nicolas Mailhot -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Wed, 17.07.13 15:08, Lennart Poettering (mzerq...@0pointer.de) wrote: How about this idea. Before No Defualt Syslog, systemd needs to completely replicate all functionality provided by syslog, including /var/log/messages, by default. Syslog emulation would be an option, and if people don't want it, they can still turn that option off. But by default, everyone can still grep /var/log/messages. Not. Gonna. Happen. The journal is not an implementation of syslog, we already have that in rsyslog. Also, the feature is about ending the duplicate storage of the log messages, so your suggestion is completely against what the feature is about. And to add to this /var/log/messages the way it stands right now is *very* badly designed: The timestamps do not contain a year The timestamps do not contain a timezone The timestamps are accurate to the second only PID information is optional, not implied PID information is fakeable, because user supplied The file tag part is completely optional, free-form, and fakeable by unpriveed clients The files do not carry any information about the log priority The files do not carry any information about who is logging (service, process name, argv, binary path..) The files do not carry any information about the credentials of who is logging (uid, gid, selinux context, audit, ...) And so on and so on. It's so bad, that rsyslog upstream even suggests not to use these files anymore, but write them in a more modern formatting that leaves a bit more information in (such as iso timestamps). But you know what? If you do that than all your compatibility is gone too. The interesting things is that journalctl is *better* at generating the same text stream that is normally contained in /var/log/messages than /var/log/messages itself is. journalctl can stuff more information into it then /var/log/messages. And how does that happen? Because we have more data around. We can agument the ouput with colors (indicating priorities), we can add additional informational separator lines (indicating reboots), we can add add in fields that aren't there (such as the tag from the comm field, or the PID). We can timezone correct the timestamps (because we have UTC times). And we can filter by any of the fields, securely. So, yeah, /var/log/messages sucks, and journalctl is better at generating a compatible output that that file ever was in itself. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/17/2013 01:21 PM, Chris Adams wrote: Once upon a time, Lennart Poettering mzerq...@0pointer.de said: On Wed, 17.07.13 07:57, Chris Adams (li...@cmadams.net) wrote: Once upon a time, Marc Deop i Argemí m...@marcdeop.com said: That terribly sounds like my way or the high way. That is Lennart's standard behavior. And the thread just went ugly. Not sure what the trigger for getting personal like this is. Do you feel we have the better arguments so you resort to this escape? It certainly isn't the brightest of your arguments if you turn a technical discussion into personal attacks. I quote from your email yesterday: But anyway, the auto-paging thing is going to stay, you can talk about it as much as you want. Why? Simply because *I* love it. It's one awesome feature. You are welcome to disagree, but discussing this forth and back on fedora-devel is highly unlikely to change my mind on this. As long as I maintain it, this one feature definitely stays in. Sorry for that! How is that not my way or the highway? Despite Lennart's love for it, those that are arguing for this change are actually asking for the default that have been since the introduction of journal to be changed thus disrupting the workflow for everybody that have gotten accustom to use it that way. JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/17/2013 02:56 PM, Chuck Anderson wrote: On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 02:52:40PM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 07/17/2013 12:06 PM, Marc Deop i Argemí wrote: On Wednesday 17 July 2013 03:20:42 Lennart Poettering wrote: As mentioned before, if people run programs that require /var/log/messages they should simply install rsyslog and be done with it. That terribly sounds like my way or the high way. Many people have raised concerns not only about having /var/log/messages in the base installation but about needing/wanting *simple text* logs by default as well. I for one, advocate against having to use a (forced)tool to read log files. So do I. IMO, log files need to be readable without any special tools, because log files often are being read in cases of emergencies/breakdown (occasionally even from other OSes), when one can not rely on the tools being available or usable. Even when you think it's better, many *do not*. ACK- Ralf Is there a way to read binary journals from non-Linux OSes? No, but there are ways to read Linux logs from other OSes. Should be sufficient reason not to imitate their flawed design and be sufficient reasons to curse binary logs as broken designs. Ralf -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 08:56:45AM -0400, Chuck Anderson wrote: On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 02:52:40PM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 07/17/2013 12:06 PM, Marc Deop i Argemí wrote: On Wednesday 17 July 2013 03:20:42 Lennart Poettering wrote: As mentioned before, if people run programs that require /var/log/messages they should simply install rsyslog and be done with it. That terribly sounds like my way or the high way. Many people have raised concerns not only about having /var/log/messages in the base installation but about needing/wanting *simple text* logs by default as well. I for one, advocate against having to use a (forced)tool to read log files. So do I. Are you also against compression of log files? IMO, log files need to be readable without any special tools, because log files often are being read in cases of emergencies/breakdown (occasionally even from other OSes), when one can not rely on the tools being available or usable. Even when you think it's better, many *do not*. ACK- Ralf Is there a way to read binary journals from non-Linux OSes? Compiling journalctl on UINXy OSes should not be too much of a problem. You'd need dbus = 1.4.0, libcap, liblzma (if used by the journal files in question). Not trivial but certainly doable. Zbyszek -- they are not broken. they are refucktored -- alxchk -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 03:08:59PM +0200, Denys Vlasenko wrote: Then engineer asks to run tail /var/log/messages. Customer says: I see cannot open ‘/var/log/messages’: No such file or directory message. And this happens every time in, say, Debian. Great, isn't it? Engineer asks to run journalctl. Customer says: I see 'Input/output error' message. How would /var/log/messages file help in case of a corrupted filesystem/disk? -- Regards,-- Sir Raorn. --- http://thousandsofhate.blogspot.com/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 03:30:20PM +0200, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 08:56:45AM -0400, Chuck Anderson wrote: Is there a way to read binary journals from non-Linux OSes? Compiling journalctl on UINXy OSes should not be too much of a problem. You'd need dbus = 1.4.0, libcap, liblzma (if used by the journal files in question). Not trivial but certainly doable. Zbyszek I was more thinking of the typical home use case, where a user has installed Fedora alongside Windows or Mac OS. The latter is UNIXy, but the former is not. Maybe as part of this feature, Fedora should release Windows packages of journalctl or a similar tool for reading the logs. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
Engineer does not know what version of OS that server runs, what is installed there and how it is configured. So it needs to be investigated. Quite a typical situation. Perhaps for you but for us here on top of the world we dont grant root access to people that cant event tell which OS and which release that OS is running on so that's quite un-typical situation for me. Also as a long term admin over many environments and many years ... Not just of Linux ... The I don't know OS argument I agree is a straw man. As Lennart already pointed out this isn't a standard Linux location anyway so an off site engineer would already have the identification issue... And it's not like a yum update in f20 would make this change happen for existing systems... Personally I'd love to see other applications make use of journald facilities such as httpd and tomcat... Would simplify some of the occasionally odd logrotate behaviour for sure... But I guess that would be even more controversial ;-) As to those worrying scripts will break and so on in production environments... Well that's why you test and have to update scripts on occasion and if you don't want to do that don't use a bleeding edge distro but rather something like rhel, CentOS, scili etc instead... I personally love journald (and systemd) on my laptop and am looking forward to it arriving in EL soonish... -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On Wed, 17.07.13 14:36, Denys Vlasenko (dvlas...@redhat.com) wrote: instead of administrators simply adding rsyslog or syslog-ng manually at install time or to their ks snippets. And this too was answered several times already. The machine in question may be already borked. Our support people will need to figure out - over the phone or email! - what has happened on client's installation, and having traditional grep/sed/awk recipes not working anymore because /var/log/messages is not there anymore is an extremely unwelcome discovery in an emergency. You guys aren't administrators who are dealing with these problems every day. You don't feel the pain you create for other people. Again: cat /var/log/messages becomes journalctl tail -f /var/log/messages becomes journalctl -f tail -n100 /var/log/messages becomes journalctl -n100 grep foobar /var/log/messages becomes journalctl | grep foobar This isn't complex. You can grep/sed/awk as much as you want. You just do it over the output of journalctl rather than teh file. That's not that big a difference. And if you really need it as a file, you can do journalctl /var/log/messages, and have it in a file. And if that doesn't cut it and you want something that is living, then install rsyslog and you got the real /var/log/messages back. and quite frankly administrators that complain about journal have not actually tried it and experienced the flexibility the journactl gives them it truly is not as bad as some people are trying to make it out to be. False argument. People (on this thread) aren't complaining about journactl being a bad thing. They are complaining about /var/log/messages disappearing. It's only disappearing as a file, it is not disappearing as a text format. journalctl has that, and thanks to the power of unix pipelines you can make use of that pretty much in the sam ways in grep/sed/awk as the text file itself. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/17/2013 03:36 PM, Alexey I. Froloff wrote: On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 03:08:59PM +0200, Denys Vlasenko wrote: Then engineer asks to run tail /var/log/messages. Customer says: I see cannot open ‘/var/log/messages’: No such file or directory message. And this happens every time in, say, Debian. Great, isn't it? Engineer asks to run journalctl. Customer says: I see 'Input/output error' message. How would /var/log/messages file help in case of a corrupted filesystem/disk? Are you trying to say that system log is generally useless for troubleshooting? Heh :) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
On 07/17/2013 08:20 AM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: On 07/17/2013 12:05 PM, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 09:21:39AM +, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: On 07/17/2013 12:58 AM, Ding Yi Chen wrote: You still have not addressed the third party programs and scripts that monitor /var/log/messages We honestly cant keep progress and cleanup in the distribution back out of fear of breaking some third party programs. Irrespective of whether journald is good or bad, this is a dumb argument. Dumb I see so you have established a time frame for us how long we should hold back progress in the project and or you have devised an implementation plan on features and cleanups with a rate that a third party can keep up with in the distribution, maybe even chosen which third parties we wait for and which we dont? You think it's good for the community to be dependent on third party I dont since think we should first and foremost be thinking about ourselves and our community not some third party of the interweb or even a downstream distribution to us like like RHEL. We as a community need to be able to set the pace for ourselves and the fact is unless you are closed source the best thing you can do as a third party is actually participate in the Fedoraproject, packaging you software or application stack and ship it within the distribution so that our existing processes will catch any fallout which our features or cleanups might bring and allow for the community to actually fix it with your or for you. JBG But it seems the community is only the people driving all these changes, what about the whole user community, not just the developer community -- Stephen Clark *NetWolves* Director of Technology Phone: 813-579-3200 Fax: 813-882-0209 Email: steve.cl...@netwolves.com http://www.netwolves.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
I don't understand why you are on a crusade to remove stuff which works, even after people conceded to your desire to have binary logs. Because that is how progress happens? Of backwards compatibility was held on forever it would be insane... Eventually things change and as Lennart pointed out Arch already does this... Now you are trying to push people to have ONLY binary logs. Way to say things that aren't there... He has categorically stated the opposite of this... You already customise Austen's fur clients right? You don't just install default fedora and run right? Just install rsyslogd as part of that process... -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
