Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Thu, 2010-08-26 at 18:09 -0500, Chris Adams wrote: What more do you want an MTA to do at install? It was decided a long time ago that the MTA shouldn't listen for remote SMTP connections by default. Pretty much any other thing I can think of (such as delivering root mail to a non-root user or smarthosting, possibly with authentication setup) requires manual configuration in any case. ... which could perhaps be done in firstboot. It could ask for the email address to use for outbound mail from 'root', and the SMTP server details for a smarthost. -- David WoodhouseOpen Source Technology Centre david.woodho...@intel.com Intel Corporation -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net wrote: sendmail has always worked out of the box for some things, including sending mail from local programs to remote email addresses I thought this was a speed trip to spamhaus' lists (the `localhost' part I've found). I had to get my machine off of it when I failed to setup KMail to use SMTP back in F7 or so. --Ben -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
Chris Adams (cmad...@hiwaay.net) said: Once upon a time, Garrett Holmstrom gho...@fedoraproject.org said: While it may be debatable what benefit one might get from removing it from the default install, can we at least remove MTAs from @core to help make things easier for appliance folks? One can still go in @base, which would make it continue to appear on all but the most minimal of installs. Yeah, I just noticed tonight that sendmail is in both @Core and @Base (as well as @Mail Server). Is there a particular reason it is in both? Right now, it (or whatever the default provider of /usr/sbin/sendmail) should be in @Core, because cronie is mandatory and requires /usr/sbin/sendmail (until the rawhide version of cronie, which will log to syslog if there's no /usr/sbin/sendmail). Why is sendmail also in @Base? It was in @base. When @core was split off and cleaned up, but still needed a MTA, it was added there so we had a consistent default. Bill -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 6:04 AM, David Woodhouse dw...@infradead.org wrote: On Thu, 2010-08-26 at 18:09 -0500, Chris Adams wrote: What more do you want an MTA to do at install? It was decided a long time ago that the MTA shouldn't listen for remote SMTP connections by default. Pretty much any other thing I can think of (such as delivering root mail to a non-root user or smarthosting, possibly with authentication setup) requires manual configuration in any case. ... which could perhaps be done in firstboot. It could ask for the email address to use for outbound mail from 'root', and the SMTP server details for a smarthost. There has been a bug on this since 2005: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=135592 -- Fedora 13 (www.pembo13.com) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 8:04 AM, Ben Boeckel maths...@gmail.com wrote: Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net wrote: sendmail has always worked out of the box for some things, including sending mail from local programs to remote email addresses I thought this was a speed trip to spamhaus' lists (the `localhost' part I've found). I had to get my machine off of it when I failed to setup KMail to use SMTP back in F7 or so. Exactly. The best solution along this is installation of esmtp/ssmtp. -- Fedora 13 (www.pembo13.com) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Mon, 2010-08-23 at 17:06 -0400, seth vidal wrote: On Mon, 2010-08-23 at 16:47 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote: On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 04:15:12PM -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote: It would be good to define such a nonstandard abbreviation as MTA when posting a new thread so that more people would know what is being discussed. It's actually a long-standing and well-recognized term. I think it's one of those cases where if you don't know what it means, you probably don't care. I mean, if you're outside of Massachusetts, why are you interested in the Teachers' Association? Okay, Google didn't help much but our wiki did! I found this page: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NoMTA which tells me that MTA is mail transport agent. I have been using postfix and sendmail for many many years, and until today I didn't know that they were called MTA. It shouldn't be too hard to give a little definition (3 words) or just copy and paste a link. We have new contributors every day and they didn't participate in previous discussions. There is no need to isolate them. Plus, people like me are bad with memorizing letters, or giving them meanings unless they form proper words. Gosh, ask me what MTA is in 2 months, and you will be surprised. :) References are good. Always. repoquery --whatprovides MTA -sv repoquery --whatprovides MDA repoquery --whatprovides MUA /b -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Fri, 2010-08-27 at 20:07 +0200, Björn Sund wrote: repoquery --whatprovides MDA repoquery --whatprovides MUA Honestly, I think things like that would be better off as pkgtags on the pkgs in the pkgdb! -sv -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
Matthew Miller, Tue, 24 Aug 2010 10:09:52 -0400: On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 08:58:50AM -0500, Michael Cronenworth wrote: Why are you complaining? If your package needs an MTA - put in a Requires! If we follow the general state of things: if a package might need something, toss it in as a requires!, this will totally defeat the purpose of the comps change, since it will get pulled in by something important at some point. Rsyslog, for example, can send output via e-mail. Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam ... I really feel like Cato the Elder when I would like to point out that this is yet another example of our brain-damaged reliance on comps instead of having proper Suggests/Recommends. Matěj -- http://www.ceplovi.cz/matej/, Jabber: mceplatceplovi.cz GPG Finger: 89EF 4BC6 288A BF43 1BAB 25C3 E09F EF25 D964 84AC This is a signature anti-virus. Please stop the spread of signature viruses! -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
Matthew Garrett, Tue, 24 Aug 2010 15:43:36 +0100: If the question is How do I ensure that important system messages get delivered to someone who can do something about them in a timely manner, a local MTA isn't a great answer. It would be if (rather obvious) https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi? id=135592 was fixed. Matěj -- http://www.ceplovi.cz/matej/, Jabber: mceplatceplovi.cz GPG Finger: 89EF 4BC6 288A BF43 1BAB 25C3 E09F EF25 D964 84AC Do not long for the night, when people vanish in their place. Be careful, do not turn to evil; for you have preferred this to affliction. -- Job 36:20f (NASB) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
Jon Masters jonat...@jonmasters.org writes: What's the benefit of having no default MTA at all? Is it that Desktop users don't care about MTAs being installed? what about those of us who care more about server installations than Desktop? I have desktops with no MTA. I can read mail on them using remote pop3/imap (with ssh), sending mail also uses ssh and /usr/sbin/sendmail on remote machine. Alternatively, SMTP to a smarthost. Plays nicely with e.g. Emacs/Gnus. There is absolutely no need for a local MTA there. On my servers the default MTA doesn't matter either, I'm using a specific program rather than a random default. -- Krzysztof Halasa -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Thu, 2010-08-26 at 20:30 +0200, Krzysztof Halasa wrote: Jon Masters jonat...@jonmasters.org writes: What's the benefit of having no default MTA at all? Is it that Desktop users don't care about MTAs being installed? what about those of us who care more about server installations than Desktop? I have desktops with no MTA. I can read mail on them using remote pop3/imap (with ssh), sending mail also uses ssh and /usr/sbin/sendmail on remote machine. Alternatively, SMTP to a smarthost. Plays nicely with e.g. Emacs/Gnus. There is absolutely no need for a local MTA there. That wasn't the question. The question was what is the benefit of not having one. Is it simply that it saves 1.6MB of disk space? If so, uh, woop? -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On 08/27/2010 12:20 AM, Adam Williamson wrote: That wasn't the question. The question was what is the benefit of not having one. Is it simply that it saves 1.6MB of disk space? If so, uh, woop? I think, that reverses the responsibility. If anything is installed by default, *that* needs a very good justification. For one thing, it isn't just about space, I don't want any services running on my system that I don't need and I don't want to take care of updates including security fixes for those software either. Rahu -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Fri, 2010-08-27 at 01:14 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: On 08/27/2010 12:20 AM, Adam Williamson wrote: That wasn't the question. The question was what is the benefit of not having one. Is it simply that it saves 1.6MB of disk space? If so, uh, woop? I think, that reverses the responsibility. If anything is installed by default, *that* needs a very good justification. For one thing, it isn't just about space, I don't want any services running on my system that I don't need and I don't want to take care of updates including security fixes for those software either. I think that makes sense if we're talking about adding a default, but taking one out - especially something that's been default in all Unix-y OSes for ever - is a different case. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Fri, 2010-08-27 at 01:14 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: On 08/27/2010 12:20 AM, Adam Williamson wrote: That wasn't the question. The question was what is the benefit of not having one. Is it simply that it saves 1.6MB of disk space? If so, uh, woop? I think, that reverses the responsibility. If anything is installed by default, *that* needs a very good justification. For one thing, it isn't just about space, I don't want any services running on my system that I don't need and I don't want to take care of updates including security fixes for those software either. I think that makes sense if we're talking about adding a default, but taking one out - especially something that's been default in all Unix-y OSes for ever - is a different case. sendmail currently serves little to no use on a fedora desktop by default. -- Fedora 13 (www.pembo13.com) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Fri, 2010-08-27 at 01:14 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: On 08/27/2010 12:20 AM, Adam Williamson wrote: That wasn't the question. The question was what is the benefit of not having one. Is it simply that it saves 1.6MB of disk space? If so, uh, woop? I think, that reverses the responsibility. If anything is installed by default, *that* needs a very good justification. For one thing, it isn't just about space, I don't want any services running on my system that I don't need and I don't want to take care of updates including security fixes for those software either. I think that makes sense if we're talking about adding a default, but taking one out - especially something that's been default in all Unix-y OSes for ever - is a different case. Does anyone have any stats on what fraction of machines have no need for an MTA currently? If there were such data it would be a useful basis on which to make a decision about including or not including an MTA by default. Certainly I have a need for sendmail (as my choice of MTA) on every machine I run - partly for sending logs, and also because I run dovecot and sendmail as a local imap mail system combination which acts as the basis for mail storage and sending - on systems where mail is pulled from a pop server this means that the mail is then stored in a nice format on the local machine and can then be grabbed from my other machines without further reference to the external pop server. Similar is true for mail grabbed from an external imap server. I wonder how many people would find that their usage concerning mail would be curtailed somewhat without an MTA? Or put another way I wonder what fraction of users would include yum install sendmail (or equivalent) as one of the first actions after an install? I am with Adam W on this one. -- mike c -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On 26/08/10 21:10, mike cloaked wrote: snip Or put another way I wonder what fraction of users would include yum install sendmail (or equivalent) as one of the first actions after an install? As an ordinary? user, it's yum install exim, as I dont know of another method as of yet, to get all my logs to a central pop.email account (my isp) -- Regards, Frank Murphy UTF_8 Encoded Friend of Fedora -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Thu, 2010-08-26 at 16:00 -0400, Arthur Pemberton wrote: I think that makes sense if we're talking about adding a default, but taking one out - especially something that's been default in all Unix-y OSes for ever - is a different case. sendmail currently serves little to no use on a fedora desktop by default. We're going in circles. I already said that I think the best fix for this is to replace sendmail with an MTA which works 'out of the box'. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Thu, 2010-08-26 at 16:00 -0400, Arthur Pemberton wrote: I think that makes sense if we're talking about adding a default, but taking one out - especially something that's been default in all Unix-y OSes for ever - is a different case. sendmail currently serves little to no use on a fedora desktop by default. We're going in circles. I already said that I think the best fix for this is to replace sendmail with an MTA which works 'out of the box'. For what purpose? It has never worked in all of Fedora's existence -- no one expects it to just work. -- Fedora 13 (www.pembo13.com) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 05:25:18PM -0400, Arthur Pemberton wrote: We're going in circles. I already said that I think the best fix for this is to replace sendmail with an MTA which works 'out of the box'. For what purpose? It has never worked in all of Fedora's existence -- no one expects it to just work. Useful information is being generated and then lost. That shouldn't happen. -- Matthew Miller mat...@mattdm.org Senior Systems Architect -- Instructional Research Computing Services Harvard School of Engineering Applied Sciences -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Matthew Miller mat...@mattdm.org wrote: On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 05:25:18PM -0400, Arthur Pemberton wrote: We're going in circles. I already said that I think the best fix for this is to replace sendmail with an MTA which works 'out of the box'. For what purpose? It has never worked in all of Fedora's existence -- no one expects it to just work. Useful information is being generated and then lost. That shouldn't happen. This is not a sudden realization, there are bugs open about this for multiple releases. Why wait till there is even less need for it to want to fix it? -- Fedora 13 (www.pembo13.com) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
Once upon a time, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com said: We're going in circles. I already said that I think the best fix for this is to replace sendmail with an MTA which works 'out of the box'. You need to define works. sendmail has always worked out of the box for some things, including sending mail from local programs to remote email addresses and delivering mail from local programs to local users. What more do you want an MTA to do at install? It was decided a long time ago that the MTA shouldn't listen for remote SMTP connections by default. Pretty much any other thing I can think of (such as delivering root mail to a non-root user or smarthosting, possibly with authentication setup) requires manual configuration in any case. -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 05:31:58PM -0400, Arthur Pemberton wrote: Useful information is being generated and then lost. That shouldn't happen. This is not a sudden realization, there are bugs open about this for multiple releases. Why wait till there is even less need for it to want to fix it? Why not fix it eventually? -- Matthew Miller mat...@mattdm.org Senior Systems Architect -- Instructional Research Computing Services Harvard School of Engineering Applied Sciences -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Aug 26, 2010, at 13:50, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Thu, 2010-08-26 at 20:30 +0200, Krzysztof Halasa wrote: Jon Masters jonat...@jonmasters.org writes: What's the benefit of having no default MTA at all? Is it that Desktop users don't care about MTAs being installed? what about those of us who care more about server installations than Desktop? I have desktops with no MTA. I can read mail on them using remote pop3/imap (with ssh), sending mail also uses ssh and /usr/sbin/sendmail on remote machine. Alternatively, SMTP to a smarthost. Plays nicely with e.g. Emacs/Gnus. There is absolutely no need for a local MTA there. That wasn't the question. The question was what is the benefit of not having one. Is it simply that it saves 1.6MB of disk space? If so, uh, woop? While it may be debatable what benefit one might get from removing it from the default install, can we at least remove MTAs from @core to help make things easier for appliance folks? One can still go in @base, which would make it continue to appear on all but the most minimal of installs. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Matthew Miller mat...@mattdm.org wrote: On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 05:31:58PM -0400, Arthur Pemberton wrote: Useful information is being generated and then lost. That shouldn't happen. This is not a sudden realization, there are bugs open about this for multiple releases. Why wait till there is even less need for it to want to fix it? Why not fix it eventually? Well for one, no one was interested in the bug reports now. So I'm really surprised that there is any resistance to removing it now. Even for sending email to remote email addresses, randomly sending emails from non fully qualified domains is just barely useful. -- Fedora 13 (www.pembo13.com) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
Once upon a time, Garrett Holmstrom gho...@fedoraproject.org said: While it may be debatable what benefit one might get from removing it from the default install, can we at least remove MTAs from @core to help make things easier for appliance folks? One can still go in @base, which would make it continue to appear on all but the most minimal of installs. Yeah, I just noticed tonight that sendmail is in both @Core and @Base (as well as @Mail Server). Is there a particular reason it is in both? Right now, it (or whatever the default provider of /usr/sbin/sendmail) should be in @Core, because cronie is mandatory and requires /usr/sbin/sendmail (until the rawhide version of cronie, which will log to syslog if there's no /usr/sbin/sendmail). Why is sendmail also in @Base? -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net wrote: Once upon a time, Garrett Holmstrom gho...@fedoraproject.org said: While it may be debatable what benefit one might get from removing it from the default install, can we at least remove MTAs from @core to help make things easier for appliance folks? One can still go in @base, which would make it continue to appear on all but the most minimal of installs. Yeah, I just noticed tonight that sendmail is in both @Core and @Base (as well as @Mail Server). Is there a particular reason it is in both? Right now, it (or whatever the default provider of /usr/sbin/sendmail) should be in @Core, because cronie is mandatory and requires /usr/sbin/sendmail (until the rawhide version of cronie, which will log to syslog if there's no /usr/sbin/sendmail). Why is sendmail also in @Base You can opt out of base but not core. If any changes are made it should be so that one can install just core and not get an mta. -- Sent from my Android phone. Please excuse my brevity. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
Once upon a time, Jesse Keating jkeat...@j2solutions.net said: Why is sendmail also in @Base You can opt out of base but not core. If any changes are made it should be so that one can install just core and not get an mta. Yes, I know that. I was wondering how it ended up in both (if there's a reason and it isn't just an accident, that might have some bearing on removing it from both). -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 12:34 AM, Jon Masters jonat...@jonmasters.org wrote: On Tue, 2010-08-24 at 17:54 -0400, seth vidal wrote: On Tue, 2010-08-24 at 22:52 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 05:43:49PM -0400, seth vidal wrote: that seems like a bit of odd logic. The logs are emitted to syslog with the same thought in mind - that someone will read them - but that is also not necessarily true. But I would not want to see us discarding syslog, either. We have a range of utilities that perform useful syslog parsing. The fact that most of them then seem to pass that output to sendmail leaves me a little less convinced that anyone pays the slightest bit of attention to them. More realistically, we install syslog because it gives us debug information that we (as developers) wouldn't otherwise be able to get. Maybe that's why you do it - but I don't. And we have a lot of utilities that parse and handle logs and send proper notifications on events we need to worry about. I have an MTA installed because I expect to get emailed logs, and root@ does go somewhere. Now, there are a couple of things I should admit: 1). I did replace the out-of-the-box MTA, because it was sendmail. I don't actually care too much about using sendmail, I happened to have configuration files that just work, because the entire mail subsystem wasn't rewritten recently, so I could just copy those files in place. 2). I care more about the server experience on this machine than pretty GUI stuff. I know that's no longer the default here :( I also like to think about what I want to base upon Fedora in the future. But my point still remains that it doesn't work out of the box and you have to do stuff to make it work, so if your in that situation its not hard to do yum install someMTA Peter And the first person who mentions snmptrap events gets slapped. :) Well, I use SNMP for power control, etc. but even I am not anal enough to use it at home for logging. Jon. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Wed, 2010-08-25 at 07:23 +0100, pbrobin...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 12:34 AM, Jon Masters jonat...@jonmasters.org wrote: I have an MTA installed because I expect to get emailed logs, and root@ does go somewhere. Now, there are a couple of things I should admit: 1). I did replace the out-of-the-box MTA, because it was sendmail. I don't actually care too much about using sendmail, I happened to have configuration files that just work, because the entire mail subsystem wasn't rewritten recently, so I could just copy those files in place. 2). I care more about the server experience on this machine than pretty GUI stuff. I know that's no longer the default here :( I also like to think about what I want to base upon Fedora in the future. But my point still remains that it doesn't work out of the box and you have to do stuff to make it work, so if your in that situation its not hard to do yum install someMTA To be clear, I'm in the but I don't want Fedora to be just a GNOME desktop camp. So I see removing the MTA by default as just another step in the wrong direction. Even if I will replace it with something else. I know I'm not alone in that particular train of thought. Jon. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 7:36 AM, Jon Masters jonat...@jonmasters.org wrote: On Wed, 2010-08-25 at 07:23 +0100, pbrobin...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 12:34 AM, Jon Masters jonat...@jonmasters.org wrote: I have an MTA installed because I expect to get emailed logs, and root@ does go somewhere. Now, there are a couple of things I should admit: 1). I did replace the out-of-the-box MTA, because it was sendmail. I don't actually care too much about using sendmail, I happened to have configuration files that just work, because the entire mail subsystem wasn't rewritten recently, so I could just copy those files in place. 2). I care more about the server experience on this machine than pretty GUI stuff. I know that's no longer the default here :( I also like to think about what I want to base upon Fedora in the future. But my point still remains that it doesn't work out of the box and you have to do stuff to make it work, so if your in that situation its not hard to do yum install someMTA To be clear, I'm in the but I don't want Fedora to be just a GNOME desktop camp. So I see removing the MTA by default as just another step in the wrong direction. Even if I will replace it with something else. I know I'm not alone in that particular train of thought. Its got nothing to do with gnome what so ever. I don't see what that has to do with the discussion. I actually want it so its easy to make tiny appliances and routers without having to manually strip a whole lot of crap out. As I mentioned above there's nothing to stop it being included in another comps group, but moving it out of core AND base as being mandatory (when its not). Peter -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
Adam Williamson wrote: FWIW, I'm with Jon and Adam on this one. I just don't see how not having an MTA by default is a win, except in disk space terms, and it takes up a tiny amount of disk space (especially if we pick a lighter-weight one than sendmail to be the default). I think it makes sense to keep one, for all the good reasons they cited. It also takes up live image space, which is a very scarce resource, it's always a fight to keep our live images within the size constraints. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
Chris Adams wrote: How many users use at or bc (well, I use dc all the time)? Well, at least at is a nice command and some people use it, but… What about ed? … it's time we drop such legacy junk! Scripts are all written to sed (or something entirely different, like awk or perl) these days, and nobody seriously uses ed for interactive editing (there are tons of more usable text editors around). Sure, we can keep ed in the repository, but I don't see why we install it by default. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 9:01 AM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at wrote: Adam Williamson wrote: FWIW, I'm with Jon and Adam on this one. I just don't see how not having an MTA by default is a win, except in disk space terms, and it takes up a tiny amount of disk space (especially if we pick a lighter-weight one than sendmail to be the default). I think it makes sense to keep one, for all the good reasons they cited. It also takes up live image space, which is a very scarce resource, it's always a fight to keep our live images within the size constraints. Which is fixable by admitting that we lost that fight and move to a modern medium that actually has space to provide a non crippled user experience. (not talking about MTAs here but in general). -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 9:12 AM, drago01 drag...@gmail.com wrote: It also takes up live image space, which is a very scarce resource, it's always a fight to keep our live images within the size constraints. Which is fixable by admitting that we lost that fight and move to a modern medium that actually has space to provide a non crippled user experience. (not talking about MTAs here but in general). I wonder what fraction of users don't use DVD these days? -- mike c -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 10:20:44AM +0100, mike cloaked wrote: On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 9:12 AM, drago01 drag...@gmail.com wrote: It also takes up live image space, which is a very scarce resource, it's always a fight to keep our live images within the size constraints. Which is fixable by admitting that we lost that fight and move to a modern medium that actually has space to provide a non crippled user experience. (not talking about MTAs here but in general). I wonder what fraction of users don't use DVD these days? Here, USB sticks are more common than DVD devices. Especially to install on notebooks or netbooks without an optical drive. Regards Till pgpdGvQ8fHe2w.pgp Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 07:44:55AM +0100, pbrobin...@gmail.com wrote: has to do with the discussion. I actually want it so its easy to make tiny appliances and routers without having to manually strip a whole lot of crap out. As I mentioned above there's nothing to stop it being included in another comps group, but moving it out of core AND base as being mandatory (when its not). Why is this reasoning not included in the Feature page[0]? There is nothing written about tiny appliances or routers. Regards Till [0] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NoMTA pgpdcLcrfPXkm.pgp Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On 08/24/2010 05:47 PM, pbrobin...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Till Maas opensou...@till.name wrote: On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 03:43:36PM +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: The problem with delivering this to a user's mailbox via an MTA is that in the typical case it doesn't result in the user noticing anything until they've logged in as root and find out that the you have new mail message actually means Your RAID is fucked and not just Here's In the typical case users do not use RAID. And how does this change with the new not MTA feauture? And in case a RAID is used, how is the user notified when the RAID is broken? How are they notified now? By default the local mta delivers everything to root because there's no way to know what user is going to exisit. I was surprised by this claim. I just tried on a clean F13 install, and it correctly delivers mail to local users. The You have mail notification works as expected. I haven't done any special configuration. Andrew. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
2010/8/24 pbrobin...@gmail.com pbrobin...@gmail.com: On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 9:36 AM, Rudolf Kastl che...@gmail.com wrote: my desktop runs on software mirror raid below an lvm. not for performance but for data recovery reasons. mdmonitor does mail notification. will this be fixed? how about logwatch, it is really useful to have to get an overview what happened on the system in a neat summary. also handy for desktops but just not recognized and presented in an end user compatible way. just my opinion. Neither of those need to run a MTA locally to work, you just need to point them to a mail server, even then they need to be configured to send the mail to something other than root anyway. Removing the default MTA won't change these out of the box and if you still want to run a local MTA its as simple as selecting it during install. I use all of the above on dozens of servers and none of them run a mail server locally. well yeah i am well aware of that and yup i can set that up i am just curious if i am the only one that prefers to have local delivery available for that kinda setups. i agree that local root notification isnt helpful for a datacenter. i also agree that /etc/aliases has to be adjusted for making the logwatch stuff for end users useful and the user would also need to have the default mail client preconfigured to have any out of the box use for it. but if you have a desktop/workstation that is standalone there is no such thing as an external mail server for raid failure notifications that makes any sense. i mean do you want to be dependent on a working networking to be notified of raid failures in an obvious way? i am not argueing for keeping the default mta necasserily, but as a user id expect that if i select raid setup in a clicky installer that the system is preconfigured in a by default useful manner. that includes obvious ways for notifying me about raid failure. the current functionality of mdmonitor requires an email address to be set. maybe for that kinda stuff using our desktop notification system would be something useable (if you want to discuss that please open a seperate thread though... i dont wanna hijack this one). Peter -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
* mike cloaked [25/08/2010 12:27] : I wonder what fraction of users don't use DVD these days? I've switched to PXE-based installs. Haven't used a DVD/CD in ages. Emmanuel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 09:08:22AM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: What about ed? … it's time we drop such legacy junk! Scripts are all written to sed (or something entirely different, like awk or perl) these days, and nobody seriously uses ed for interactive editing (there are tons of more usable text editors around). Sure, we can keep ed in the repository, but I don't see why we install it by default. It is very convenient for blind users with a line-based braille terminal. Do we ship accessibility tools for Gnome by default? If so, I think we can afford to ship poor little ed. -- Matthew Miller mat...@mattdm.org Senior Systems Architect -- Instructional Research Computing Services Harvard School of Engineering Applied Sciences -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On 08/25/2010 09:08 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: Chris Adams wrote: How many users use at or bc (well, I use dc all the time)? Well, at least at is a nice command and some people use it, but… What about ed? … it's time we drop such legacy junk! What you offend as legacy junk is mandated by POSIX: http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/ed.html -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de writes: On 08/25/2010 09:08 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: Chris Adams wrote: How many users use at or bc (well, I use dc all the time)? Well, at least at is a nice command and some people use it, but… What about ed? … it's time we drop such legacy junk! What you offend as legacy junk is mandated by POSIX: POSIX mandates a lot of legacy junk. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, sch...@redhat.com GPG Key fingerprint = D4E8 DBE3 3813 BB5D FA84 5EC7 45C6 250E 6F00 984E And now for something completely different. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 10:32 AM, Till Maas opensou...@till.name wrote: On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 10:20:44AM +0100, mike cloaked wrote: On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 9:12 AM, drago01 drag...@gmail.com wrote: It also takes up live image space, which is a very scarce resource, it's always a fight to keep our live images within the size constraints. Which is fixable by admitting that we lost that fight and move to a modern medium that actually has space to provide a non crippled user experience. (not talking about MTAs here but in general). I wonder what fraction of users don't use DVD these days? Here, USB sticks are more common than DVD devices. Especially to install on notebooks or netbooks without an optical drive. True - and I use the same! But some old machines won't boot off usbkeys so I use both methods. -- mike c -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Tue, 2010-08-24 at 22:41 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 11:52:45AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: FWIW, I'm with Jon and Adam on this one. I just don't see how not having an MTA by default is a win, except in disk space terms, and it takes up a tiny amount of disk space (especially if we pick a lighter-weight one than sendmail to be the default). I think it makes sense to keep one, for all the good reasons they cited. Shipping an MTA by default just gives developers the expectation that if they pass something to sendmail then it'll be read by a human. Since that's plainly untrue we should stop doing it and replace it with something that's actually useful. By all means change the default MTA to something that 'works out of the box' in some way, yes. That'd be great, and much more of a feature than 'let's just remove it'. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Wed, 2010-08-25 at 09:01 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Adam Williamson wrote: FWIW, I'm with Jon and Adam on this one. I just don't see how not having an MTA by default is a win, except in disk space terms, and it takes up a tiny amount of disk space (especially if we pick a lighter-weight one than sendmail to be the default). I think it makes sense to keep one, for all the good reasons they cited. It also takes up live image space, which is a very scarce resource, it's always a fight to keep our live images within the size constraints. The fairly freakin' outdated size constraints? I wish we could resurrect that thing from F13 about making the live images 1GB. No-one burns them to CDs any more. (BTW, Size: 1618955 - it's 1.6MB, installed. That's pretty tiny even by live CD standards.) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
pbrobin...@gmail.com pbrobin...@gmail.com wrote: Its got nothing to do with gnome what so ever. I don't see what that has to do with the discussion. I actually want it so its easy to make tiny appliances and routers without having to manually strip a whole lot of crap out. As I mentioned above there's nothing to stop it being included in another comps group, but moving it out of core AND base as being mandatory (when its not). Peter Here's a list of things I take out of my system via a kickstart file (last reviewed for F13, systemd seems to have required a few selinux things in the list): @minimal -audit -authconfig -checkpolicy -cyrus-sasl -efibootmgr -iptables-ipv6 -libselinux-utils -libsemanage -policycoreutils -procmail -selinux-policy -selinux-policy-targeted -setserial I imagine the selinux and iptables stuff will stay in @core and/or @base but if the MTA is leaving, machines are usable without those packages as well. --Ben -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
2010/8/25 Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com: On Tue, 2010-08-24 at 22:41 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 11:52:45AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: FWIW, I'm with Jon and Adam on this one. I just don't see how not having an MTA by default is a win, except in disk space terms, and it takes up a tiny amount of disk space (especially if we pick a lighter-weight one than sendmail to be the default). I think it makes sense to keep one, for all the good reasons they cited. Shipping an MTA by default just gives developers the expectation that if they pass something to sendmail then it'll be read by a human. Since that's plainly untrue we should stop doing it and replace it with something that's actually useful. By all means change the default MTA to something that 'works out of the box' in some way, yes. That'd be great, and much more of a feature than 'let's just remove it'. as i wrote before i am not religous at all about an mta itsself but rather about proper working notifications with history for raid failure and logwatch. so a clear +1 here. kind regards, rudolf kastl -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
my desktop runs on software mirror raid below an lvm. not for performance but for data recovery reasons. mdmonitor does mail notification. will this be fixed? how about logwatch, it is really useful to have to get an overview what happened on the system in a neat summary. also handy for desktops but just not recognized and presented in an end user compatible way. just my opinion. kind regards, Rudolf Kastl -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 9:36 AM, Rudolf Kastl che...@gmail.com wrote: my desktop runs on software mirror raid below an lvm. not for performance but for data recovery reasons. mdmonitor does mail notification. will this be fixed? how about logwatch, it is really useful to have to get an overview what happened on the system in a neat summary. also handy for desktops but just not recognized and presented in an end user compatible way. just my opinion. Neither of those need to run a MTA locally to work, you just need to point them to a mail server, even then they need to be configured to send the mail to something other than root anyway. Removing the default MTA won't change these out of the box and if you still want to run a local MTA its as simple as selecting it during install. I use all of the above on dozens of servers and none of them run a mail server locally. Peter -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On 08/23/2010 08:15 PM, Jon Masters wrote: On Sun, 2010-08-22 at 20:10 +0200, drago01 wrote: On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Rex Dieter rdie...@math.unl.edu wrote: pbrobin...@gmail.com wrote: I know its been discussed in the past but there's been reasons not to drop a default MTA but now that cronie (the last actual dependency) has support for logging to system logs is there any reason to include an MTA by default for F-14? A bit late to consider for F-14 imo (I'd argue something like should in place and testable by or near feature freeze), F-15 is doable. Test what? That no MTA is present? I'd say we should stop arguing forever and just do it. What's the benefit of having no default MTA at all? Is it that Desktop users don't care about MTAs being installed? what about those of us who care more about server installations than Desktop? Even the web page proposing its deletion acknowledges that The presence of a Mail Transfer Agent (MTA) like sendmail has long been the de facto standard. Indeed it has: the ability to send mail from a program has been an entitlement for as long as UNIX has been around. In comparison with this, the benefit is very feeble: One less required package in the critical path, and we clear the way for removing the MTA from the default install. Andrew. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 12:43 PM, Andrew Haley a...@redhat.com wrote: On 08/23/2010 08:15 PM, Jon Masters wrote: On Sun, 2010-08-22 at 20:10 +0200, drago01 wrote: On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Rex Dieter rdie...@math.unl.edu wrote: pbrobin...@gmail.com wrote: I know its been discussed in the past but there's been reasons not to drop a default MTA but now that cronie (the last actual dependency) has support for logging to system logs is there any reason to include an MTA by default for F-14? A bit late to consider for F-14 imo (I'd argue something like should in place and testable by or near feature freeze), F-15 is doable. Test what? That no MTA is present? I'd say we should stop arguing forever and just do it. What's the benefit of having no default MTA at all? Is it that Desktop users don't care about MTAs being installed? what about those of us who care more about server installations than Desktop? Even the web page proposing its deletion acknowledges that The presence of a Mail Transfer Agent (MTA) like sendmail has long been the de facto standard. Indeed it has: the ability to send mail from a program has been an entitlement for as long as UNIX has been around. In comparison with this, the benefit is very feeble: One less required package in the critical path, and we clear the way for removing the MTA from the default install. Removing it doesn't stop applications in unix from sending mail! Peter -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On 08/24/2010 12:47 PM, pbrobin...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 12:43 PM, Andrew Haley a...@redhat.com wrote: On 08/23/2010 08:15 PM, Jon Masters wrote: On Sun, 2010-08-22 at 20:10 +0200, drago01 wrote: On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Rex Dieter rdie...@math.unl.edu wrote: pbrobin...@gmail.com wrote: I know its been discussed in the past but there's been reasons not to drop a default MTA but now that cronie (the last actual dependency) has support for logging to system logs is there any reason to include an MTA by default for F-14? A bit late to consider for F-14 imo (I'd argue something like should in place and testable by or near feature freeze), F-15 is doable. Test what? That no MTA is present? I'd say we should stop arguing forever and just do it. What's the benefit of having no default MTA at all? Is it that Desktop users don't care about MTAs being installed? what about those of us who care more about server installations than Desktop? Even the web page proposing its deletion acknowledges that The presence of a Mail Transfer Agent (MTA) like sendmail has long been the de facto standard. Indeed it has: the ability to send mail from a program has been an entitlement for as long as UNIX has been around. In comparison with this, the benefit is very feeble: One less required package in the critical path, and we clear the way for removing the MTA from the default install. Removing it doesn't stop applications in unix from sending mail! Yes, it does, unless you happen to have configured your machine to be able to send mail externally. And also, you can't guarantee that every user ID on a machine corresponds to an email address that is globally reachable. I suspect that, in general, they aren't. Andrew. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
Once upon a time, pbrobin...@gmail.com pbrobin...@gmail.com said:
Neither of those need to run a MTA locally to work, you just need to
point them to a mail server, even then they need to be configured to
send the mail to something other than root anyway.
They can't be configured that way; they don't implement SMTP. It is a
de-facto standard for Unix programs to send mail by piping the message
to either /bin/mail or /usr/{sbin,lib}/sendmail. That has the advantage
of queueing for later delivery (what if I'm off-line when mdmonitor
detects a failure?) and such.
Having to implement SMTP in every program and then configure every
program for SMTP server settings (including possible AUTH and SSL/TLS
parameters) is a really bad idea.
I'm still of the opinion that there should be _something_ at the
de-facto standard location of /usr/sbin/sendmail that can queue messages
for later delivery. I don't care whether it is actually sendmail or
not. Preferably, it should be something that can be easily configured
to smarthost and use SMTP AUTH. I would use sendmail for that, but
that's just me (I understand many don't want sendmail and I have no
problem with that).
What do we gain by not having any MTA installed (other than a little bit
of disk space)? I understand that a little bit of disk space can add
up quick, but a local queueing MTA is a pretty standard part of a Unix
system.
--
Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.
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Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
Chris Adams wrote: What do we gain by not having any MTA installed (other than a little bit of disk space)? I understand that a little bit of disk space can add up quick, but a local queueing MTA is a pretty standard part of a Unix system. Why are you complaining? If your package needs an MTA - put in a Requires! Why do we need packages installed just because? -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 08:56:21AM -0500, Chris Adams wrote: I'm still of the opinion that there should be _something_ at the de-facto standard location of /usr/sbin/sendmail that can queue messages for later delivery. I don't care whether it is actually sendmail or not. Preferably, it should be something that can be easily configured to smarthost and use SMTP AUTH. I would use sendmail for that, but that's just me (I understand many don't want sendmail and I have no problem with that). +1 -- Matthew Miller mat...@mattdm.org Senior Systems Architect -- Instructional Research Computing Services Harvard School of Engineering Applied Sciences -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On 08/24/2010 02:58 PM, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
Chris Adams wrote:
What do we gain by not having any MTA installed (other than a little bit
of disk space)? I understand that a little bit of disk space can add
up quick, but a local queueing MTA is a pretty standard part of a Unix
system.
Why are you complaining? If your package needs an MTA - put in a Requires!
Not everything that runs on Fedora is a Fedora package: people run
their own programs, too. Some things, like the existence of /bin/ls
or being able to send mail by piping the message to either /bin/mail
or /usr/{sbin,lib}/sendmail are basic features of UNIX.
Andrew.
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Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 08:58:50AM -0500, Michael Cronenworth wrote: Why are you complaining? If your package needs an MTA - put in a Requires! If we follow the general state of things: if a package might need something, toss it in as a requires!, this will totally defeat the purpose of the comps change, since it will get pulled in by something important at some point. Rsyslog, for example, can send output via e-mail. Having a very simple mail-queue-and-relay program as an alternative to sendmail seems like a better choice than just ditching it. -- Matthew Miller mat...@mattdm.org Senior Systems Architect -- Instructional Research Computing Services Harvard School of Engineering Applied Sciences -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
Andrew Haley wrote:
Not everything that runs on Fedora is a Fedora package: people run
their own programs, too. Some things, like the existence of /bin/ls
or being able to send mail by piping the message to either /bin/mail
or/usr/{sbin,lib}/sendmail are basic features of UNIX.
No one is going to stop you from using an MTA.
I, for one, *never* use /bin/mail or /usr/bin/sendmail. I guess you
could call me a young whipper snapper though.
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Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
Once upon a time, Michael Cronenworth m...@cchtml.com said: Chris Adams wrote: What do we gain by not having any MTA installed (other than a little bit of disk space)? I understand that a little bit of disk space can add up quick, but a local queueing MTA is a pretty standard part of a Unix system. Why are you complaining? If your package needs an MTA - put in a Requires! It seems that this thread is trying to eliminate those requirements. The mdadm package doesn't currently require MTA (needed for monitoring). If the Requires was added, what would be the response (since the proposal is to remove any MTA from the default package set)? Why do we need packages installed just because? I guess I assumed that Fedora is still providing a Unix-like system. There are a number of things in the Base package set that are there just because this is still a Unix-like system, not because they are required by any other installed software. How many users use at or bc (well, I use dc all the time)? What about ed? Nothing directly depends on them (except for the LSB package, which also requires /usr/sbin/sendmail). -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
Matthew Miller wrote: If we follow the general state of things: if a package might need something, toss it in as a requires!, this will totally defeat the purpose of the comps change, since it will get pulled in by something important at some point. Rsyslog, for example, can send output via e-mail. That's *not* what I said. There are guidelines in place to prevent a Requires madness. This is a perfect opportunity for you to investigate Recommended for RPM. Having a very simple mail-queue-and-relay program as an alternative to sendmail seems like a better choice than just ditching it. I'll just yum remove that, too. Thanks for wasting 30 seconds of my life. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On 24/08/10 15:13, Chris Adams wrote: Once upon a time, Michael Cronenworthm...@cchtml.com said: Chris Adams wrote: What do we gain by not having any MTA installed (other than a little bit of disk space)? I understand that a little bit of disk space can add up quick, but a local queueing MTA is a pretty standard part of a Unix system. Why are you complaining? If your package needs an MTA - put in a Requires! It seems that this thread is trying to eliminate those requirements. The mdadm package doesn't currently require MTA (needed for monitoring). If the Requires was added, what would be the response (since the proposal is to remove any MTA from the default package set)? Why do we need packages installed just because? I guess I assumed that Fedora is still providing a Unix-like system. There are a number of things in the Base package set that are there just because this is still a Unix-like system, not because they are required by any other installed software. How many users use at or bc (well, I use dc all the time)? I use at on a regular basis, to schedule large downloads and uploads when my ADSL bandwidth becomes unmetered after midnight. And I like getting the resulting email in the morning showing that all went well, or not as the case may be. Paul. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Tue, 2010-08-24 at 10:09 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 08:58:50AM -0500, Michael Cronenworth wrote: Why are you complaining? If your package needs an MTA - put in a Requires! If we follow the general state of things: if a package might need something, toss it in as a requires!, this will totally defeat the purpose of the comps change, since it will get pulled in by something important at some point. Rsyslog, for example, can send output via e-mail. Having a very simple mail-queue-and-relay program as an alternative to sendmail seems like a better choice than just ditching it. My previous objection was based on the precedent it sets. I don't want a Desktop distribution in Fedora. I want a server-usable distribution. Sure, it's just a dep and one can go install an MTA. But today it's killing the MTA, tomorrow it's removing something else that's useful on the server side of things. I want to see that trend stop and reverse. Jon. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
Paul Howarth wrote:
I use at on a regular basis, to schedule large downloads and uploads
when my ADSL bandwidth becomes unmetered after midnight.
And I like getting the resulting email in the morning showing that all
went well, or not as the case may be.
No one will prevent you from doing so. Nothing on your end will change.
I get it now - This is the old meets the new.
New: MTA? WTF?
Old: MTA! 3
It is asking a lot for Fedora to be a one size fits all distribution.
No one will be happy, so what can the compromise be?
1) Leave as is. Makes MTA-lovers rejoice. Other folks will continue to
yum remove.
2) Remove from comps. Makes Desktop users rejoice. Other folks will yum
install {sendmail,postfix,exim,$MTA}
3) Make Fedora installs separated into usage-based comps. Server,
Laptop, Netbook, and Handheld (read MeeGo).
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Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Tue, 2010-08-24 at 10:19 -0400, Jon Masters wrote: My previous objection was based on the precedent it sets. I don't want a Desktop distribution in Fedora. I want a server-usable distribution. Sure, it's just a dep and one can go install an MTA. But today it's killing the MTA, tomorrow it's removing something else that's useful on the server side of things. I want to see that trend stop and reverse. How about you become involved in the 'Server' SIG [1] then, and help them produce a spin or install image that is suitable for your idea of a server, instead of shooting down changes on this mailing list. Blocking change is not going to make Fedora a better server... Matthias [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Server -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Tue, 2010-08-24 at 10:36 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: On Tue, 2010-08-24 at 10:19 -0400, Jon Masters wrote: My previous objection was based on the precedent it sets. I don't want a Desktop distribution in Fedora. I want a server-usable distribution. Sure, it's just a dep and one can go install an MTA. But today it's killing the MTA, tomorrow it's removing something else that's useful on the server side of things. I want to see that trend stop and reverse. How about you become involved in the 'Server' SIG [1] then Happy to do so. I also happen to believe that Fedora should have certain server-useful characteristics out of the box (like Linux always has done). That's my opinion, I've made it known, and now I'm done. Jon. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 08:56:21AM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
They can't be configured that way; they don't implement SMTP. It is a
de-facto standard for Unix programs to send mail by piping the message
to either /bin/mail or /usr/{sbin,lib}/sendmail. That has the advantage
of queueing for later delivery (what if I'm off-line when mdmonitor
detects a failure?) and such.
The problem with delivering this to a user's mailbox via an MTA is that
in the typical case it doesn't result in the user noticing anything
until they've logged in as root and find out that the you have new
mail message actually means Your RAID is fucked and not just Here's
some random syslog spew that something you installed and forgot about
keeps generating. If the question is How do I ensure that important
system messages get delivered to someone who can do something about them
in a timely manner, a local MTA isn't a great answer.
There's certainly a set of people who want an MTA for this - in a server
environment it's obviously far more straightforward to get mailed on
failure, and that's something that you'll probably configure when
setting up the machine in the first place. But we're talking about the
default install case, and right now the situation is that anything that
pipes directly to sendmail is almost certainly never being read by the
user. Having an MTA installed doesn't solve the problem that we want to
solve, and so dropping an MTA from the default install means a reduction
in the quantity of privileged code running on the system without any
significant reduction in functionality.
The long term fix would arguably be to provide a stub /usr/sbin/sendmail
that ties into a more generic event reporting interface, which in turn
could be configured to send mail elsewhere but would default to popping
up some sort of desktop notification.
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Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
Matthew Garrett wrote: The long term fix would arguably be to provide a stub /usr/sbin/sendmail that ties into a more generic event reporting interface, which in turn could be configured to send mail elsewhere but would default to popping up some sort of desktop notification. Already works that way. Sendmail/logwatch deliver e-mail and DeviceKit displays desktop notifications (without requiring an MTA). -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 03:43:36PM +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: There's certainly a set of people who want an MTA for this - in a server environment it's obviously far more straightforward to get mailed on failure, and that's something that you'll probably configure when This isn't server-only -- it's also the case in an enterprise desktop environment. I don't think that's a real problem, because if those places aren't installing via kickstart already, they've got other issues. But I just wanted to point out that this isn't a pure server-vs-the-desktop issue. The long term fix would arguably be to provide a stub /usr/sbin/sendmail that ties into a more generic event reporting interface, which in turn could be configured to send mail elsewhere but would default to popping up some sort of desktop notification. +1. C'mon, prolific desktop code guys. :) -- Matthew Miller mat...@mattdm.org Senior Systems Architect -- Instructional Research Computing Services Harvard School of Engineering Applied Sciences -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On 08/24/2010 03:37 PM, Jon Masters wrote: On Tue, 2010-08-24 at 10:36 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: On Tue, 2010-08-24 at 10:19 -0400, Jon Masters wrote: My previous objection was based on the precedent it sets. I don't want a Desktop distribution in Fedora. I want a server-usable distribution. Sure, it's just a dep and one can go install an MTA. But today it's killing the MTA, tomorrow it's removing something else that's useful on the server side of things. I want to see that trend stop and reverse. How about you become involved in the 'Server' SIG [1] then Happy to do so. I also happen to believe that Fedora should have certain server-useful characteristics out of the box (like Linux always has done). That's my opinion, I've made it known, and now I'm done. It's not just about the MTA. I think there's a much more fundamental question here, which is whether a default Fedora installation is intended to be a real UNIX-like system or just the dependencies for GNOME. Andrew. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
Andrew Haley wrote: I think there's a much more fundamental question here, which is whether a default Fedora installation is intended to be a real UNIX-like system or just the dependencies for GNOME. I was going to reply to Chris, but I'll reply here. What benefit do I, or anyone else, receive by shipping a 100% Unix-clone environment by default? With PCs evolving every 5-10 years, will Unix-like be necessary for much longer? Are we making a Fedora for people to use or for researchers to study? -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Tue, 2010-08-24 at 10:10 -0500, Michael Cronenworth wrote: Andrew Haley wrote: I think there's a much more fundamental question here, which is whether a default Fedora installation is intended to be a real UNIX-like system or just the dependencies for GNOME. I was going to reply to Chris, but I'll reply here. What benefit do I, or anyone else, receive by shipping a 100% Unix-clone environment by default? With PCs evolving every 5-10 years, will Unix-like be necessary for much longer? Are we making a Fedora for people to use or for researchers to study? I think it really depends on what you mean by 'people'. If you mean people == someone using a laptop/desktop. OR do you mean people == someone who admins a lot of servers and desktops for others. And that is the crux of the issue and has always been the crux of the issue. -sv -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 09:46:26AM -0500, Michael Cronenworth wrote: Matthew Garrett wrote: The long term fix would arguably be to provide a stub /usr/sbin/sendmail that ties into a more generic event reporting interface, which in turn could be configured to send mail elsewhere but would default to popping up some sort of desktop notification. Already works that way. Sendmail/logwatch deliver e-mail and DeviceKit displays desktop notifications (without requiring an MTA). That's limited to disk and power notifications, isn't it? -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 10:53:13AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 03:43:36PM +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: There's certainly a set of people who want an MTA for this - in a server environment it's obviously far more straightforward to get mailed on failure, and that's something that you'll probably configure when This isn't server-only -- it's also the case in an enterprise desktop environment. Sorry, yeah - wherever I say Server read it as Machine with a remote sysadmin. The long term fix would arguably be to provide a stub /usr/sbin/sendmail that ties into a more generic event reporting interface, which in turn could be configured to send mail elsewhere but would default to popping up some sort of desktop notification. +1. C'mon, prolific desktop code guys. :) I'll take a look at what would be involved. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
Once upon a time, Michael Cronenworth m...@cchtml.com said: What benefit do I, or anyone else, receive by shipping a 100% Unix-clone environment by default? With PCs evolving every 5-10 years, will Unix-like be necessary for much longer? Are we making a Fedora for people to use or for researchers to study? So, according to you, Unix-like systems are only for researchers to study? How does PCs evolving every 5-10 years have any bearing on being Unix-like or not? -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
Andrew Haley a...@redhat.com wrote:
On 08/24/2010 02:58 PM, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
Chris Adams wrote:
What do we gain by not having any MTA installed (other than a little bit
of disk space)? I understand that a little bit of disk space can add
up quick, but a local queueing MTA is a pretty standard part of a Unix
system.
Why are you complaining? If your package needs an MTA - put in a Requires!
Not everything that runs on Fedora is a Fedora package: people run
their own programs, too. Some things, like the existence of /bin/ls
or being able to send mail by piping the message to either /bin/mail
or /usr/{sbin,lib}/sendmail are basic features of UNIX.
Isn't that what the lsb packages are for? I you want a traditional base,
install the group for it.
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Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 03:43:36PM +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: The problem with delivering this to a user's mailbox via an MTA is that in the typical case it doesn't result in the user noticing anything until they've logged in as root and find out that the you have new mail message actually means Your RAID is fucked and not just Here's In the typical case users do not use RAID. And how does this change with the new not MTA feauture? And in case a RAID is used, how is the user notified when the RAID is broken? Regards Till pgp7CrDISWMV2.pgp Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Till Maas opensou...@till.name wrote: On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 03:43:36PM +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: The problem with delivering this to a user's mailbox via an MTA is that in the typical case it doesn't result in the user noticing anything until they've logged in as root and find out that the you have new mail message actually means Your RAID is fucked and not just Here's In the typical case users do not use RAID. And how does this change with the new not MTA feauture? And in case a RAID is used, how is the user notified when the RAID is broken? How are they notified now? By default the local mta delivers everything to root because there's no way to know what user is going to exisit. How many people check the local root users mail. So for desktop it should be a notification to the screen, for a server it would need to be configured anyway for smart relay hosts and real users to send it to. So its currently broken as it standard. This change is not going to make that any better or worse. Peter -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 3:19 PM, Jon Masters jonat...@jonmasters.org wrote: On Tue, 2010-08-24 at 10:09 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 08:58:50AM -0500, Michael Cronenworth wrote: Why are you complaining? If your package needs an MTA - put in a Requires! If we follow the general state of things: if a package might need something, toss it in as a requires!, this will totally defeat the purpose of the comps change, since it will get pulled in by something important at some point. Rsyslog, for example, can send output via e-mail. Having a very simple mail-queue-and-relay program as an alternative to sendmail seems like a better choice than just ditching it. My previous objection was based on the precedent it sets. I don't want a Desktop distribution in Fedora. I want a server-usable distribution. Sure, it's just a dep and one can go install an MTA. But today it's killing the MTA, tomorrow it's removing something else that's useful on the server side of things. I want to see that trend stop and reverse. Its NOT killing the MTA. In most cases you won't see any difference. Its removing the mandatory option in the comps. There are dozens of packages that depend on /usr/bin/sendmail and they will install a MTA as a dependency. Peter -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 3:09 PM, Matthew Miller mat...@mattdm.org wrote: On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 08:58:50AM -0500, Michael Cronenworth wrote: Why are you complaining? If your package needs an MTA - put in a Requires! If we follow the general state of things: if a package might need something, toss it in as a requires!, this will totally defeat the purpose of the comps change, since it will get pulled in by something important at some point. Rsyslog, for example, can send output via e-mail. yes, but in the case that something needs it such as logwatch it will automatically install an MTA as part of the dependencies. So just because its not there by default doesn't mean that it won't necessarily be installed. It just means that for a minimal install or possibly a desktop spin if there's not a dependency on it it won't unnecessarily get installed. Peter -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Tue, 2010-08-24 at 10:37 -0400, Jon Masters wrote: On Tue, 2010-08-24 at 10:36 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: On Tue, 2010-08-24 at 10:19 -0400, Jon Masters wrote: My previous objection was based on the precedent it sets. I don't want a Desktop distribution in Fedora. I want a server-usable distribution. Sure, it's just a dep and one can go install an MTA. But today it's killing the MTA, tomorrow it's removing something else that's useful on the server side of things. I want to see that trend stop and reverse. How about you become involved in the 'Server' SIG [1] then Happy to do so. I also happen to believe that Fedora should have certain server-useful characteristics out of the box (like Linux always has done). That's my opinion, I've made it known, and now I'm done. FWIW, I'm with Jon and Adam on this one. I just don't see how not having an MTA by default is a win, except in disk space terms, and it takes up a tiny amount of disk space (especially if we pick a lighter-weight one than sendmail to be the default). I think it makes sense to keep one, for all the good reasons they cited. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 08:27, Michael Cronenworth m...@cchtml.com wrote:
Paul Howarth wrote:
I use at on a regular basis, to schedule large downloads and uploads
when my ADSL bandwidth becomes unmetered after midnight.
And I like getting the resulting email in the morning showing that all
went well, or not as the case may be.
No one will prevent you from doing so. Nothing on your end will change.
I get it now - This is the old meets the new.
New: MTA? WTF?
Old: MTA! 3
It is asking a lot for Fedora to be a one size fits all distribution.
No one will be happy, so what can the compromise be?
1) Leave as is. Makes MTA-lovers rejoice. Other folks will continue to
yum remove.
2) Remove from comps. Makes Desktop users rejoice. Other folks will yum
install {sendmail,postfix,exim,$MTA}
3) Make Fedora installs separated into usage-based comps. Server,
Laptop, Netbook, and Handheld (read MeeGo).
Your comments have been nothing but hostile and attacking. Please be
more excellent and quit trying to pick a fight.
--
Stephen J Smoogen.
“The core skill of innovators is error recovery, not failure avoidance.”
Randy Nelson, President of Pixar University.
We have a strategic plan. It's called doing things.
— Herb Kelleher, founder Southwest Airlines
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Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 08:27:04PM +0100, Adam Huffman wrote: Not really related to the original discussion, but perhaps firstboot could be amended to add an alias when the first user is created such that they receive root's mail? https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=135592 and related: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=143437 -- Matthew Miller mat...@mattdm.org Senior Systems Architect -- Instructional Research Computing Services Harvard School of Engineering Applied Sciences -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 11:52:45AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: FWIW, I'm with Jon and Adam on this one. I just don't see how not having an MTA by default is a win, except in disk space terms, and it takes up a tiny amount of disk space (especially if we pick a lighter-weight one than sendmail to be the default). I think it makes sense to keep one, for all the good reasons they cited. Shipping an MTA by default just gives developers the expectation that if they pass something to sendmail then it'll be read by a human. Since that's plainly untrue we should stop doing it and replace it with something that's actually useful. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 08:27:04PM +0100, Adam Huffman wrote: Not really related to the original discussion, but perhaps firstboot could be amended to add an alias when the first user is created such that they receive root's mail? At the point where you're writing more code to fix a problem badly, it's probably worth thinking about writing code to fix the problem well. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Tue, 2010-08-24 at 22:41 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 11:52:45AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: FWIW, I'm with Jon and Adam on this one. I just don't see how not having an MTA by default is a win, except in disk space terms, and it takes up a tiny amount of disk space (especially if we pick a lighter-weight one than sendmail to be the default). I think it makes sense to keep one, for all the good reasons they cited. Shipping an MTA by default just gives developers the expectation that if they pass something to sendmail then it'll be read by a human. Since that's plainly untrue we should stop doing it and replace it with something that's actually useful. I'm not really in the giving-a-crap camp for the MTA or not but: that seems like a bit of odd logic. The logs are emitted to syslog with the same thought in mind - that someone will read them - but that is also not necessarily true. But I would not want to see us discarding syslog, either. -sv -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 05:43:49PM -0400, seth vidal wrote: that seems like a bit of odd logic. The logs are emitted to syslog with the same thought in mind - that someone will read them - but that is also not necessarily true. But I would not want to see us discarding syslog, either. We have a range of utilities that perform useful syslog parsing. The fact that most of them then seem to pass that output to sendmail leaves me a little less convinced that anyone pays the slightest bit of attention to them. More realistically, we install syslog because it gives us debug information that we (as developers) wouldn't otherwise be able to get. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Tue, 2010-08-24 at 22:52 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 05:43:49PM -0400, seth vidal wrote: that seems like a bit of odd logic. The logs are emitted to syslog with the same thought in mind - that someone will read them - but that is also not necessarily true. But I would not want to see us discarding syslog, either. We have a range of utilities that perform useful syslog parsing. The fact that most of them then seem to pass that output to sendmail leaves me a little less convinced that anyone pays the slightest bit of attention to them. More realistically, we install syslog because it gives us debug information that we (as developers) wouldn't otherwise be able to get. Maybe that's why you do it - but I don't. And we have a lot of utilities that parse and handle logs and send proper notifications on events we need to worry about. And the first person who mentions snmptrap events gets slapped. :) -sv -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org wrote: On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 05:43:49PM -0400, seth vidal wrote: that seems like a bit of odd logic. The logs are emitted to syslog with the same thought in mind - that someone will read them - but that is also not necessarily true. But I would not want to see us discarding syslog, either. We have a range of utilities that perform useful syslog parsing. The fact that most of them then seem to pass that output to sendmail leaves me a little less convinced that anyone pays the slightest bit of attention to them. More realistically, we install syslog because it gives us debug information that we (as developers) wouldn't otherwise be able to get. I see syslog as the equivalent of the event log in that other OS. You can easily view it with a basic less /var/log/someLog or a gui viewer (not sure if we install that by default) or even some notification method. Peter -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
RE: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
-Original Message- From: devel-boun...@lists.fedoraproject.org [mailto:devel-boun...@lists.fedoraproject.org] On Behalf Of pbrobin...@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 3:03 PM To: Development discussions related to Fedora Subject: Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15 On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org wrote: On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 05:43:49PM -0400, seth vidal wrote: that seems like a bit of odd logic. The logs are emitted to syslog with the same thought in mind - that someone will read them - but that is also not necessarily true. But I would not want to see us discarding syslog, either. We have a range of utilities that perform useful syslog parsing. The fact that most of them then seem to pass that output to sendmail leaves me a little less convinced that anyone pays the slightest bit of attention to them. More realistically, we install syslog because it gives us debug information that we (as developers) wouldn't otherwise be able to get. I see syslog as the equivalent of the event log in that other OS. You can easily view it with a basic less /var/log/someLog or a gui viewer (not sure if we install that by default) or even some notification method. One important distinction is the event vs report perspective. Syslog, being inherently non-transactional and unreliable, treats each incoming message as a separate event. Cron output is usually either script vomitous (which you want to see cohesively to make any sense of), or a multi-line report (I'm thinking logwatch). Some of us are doing nifty things parsing the mail headers (on systems with, say, nullmailer*, or something that forwards off to a smarthost), which puts us straight into the metadata+payload concept. Syslog is great at receiving messages... but if we're getting rid of an MTA, I'd really like something local that's great at receiving (nicely formatted or not) reports too. Japheth Cleaver -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Tue, 2010-08-24 at 17:54 -0400, seth vidal wrote: On Tue, 2010-08-24 at 22:52 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 05:43:49PM -0400, seth vidal wrote: that seems like a bit of odd logic. The logs are emitted to syslog with the same thought in mind - that someone will read them - but that is also not necessarily true. But I would not want to see us discarding syslog, either. We have a range of utilities that perform useful syslog parsing. The fact that most of them then seem to pass that output to sendmail leaves me a little less convinced that anyone pays the slightest bit of attention to them. More realistically, we install syslog because it gives us debug information that we (as developers) wouldn't otherwise be able to get. Maybe that's why you do it - but I don't. And we have a lot of utilities that parse and handle logs and send proper notifications on events we need to worry about. I have an MTA installed because I expect to get emailed logs, and root@ does go somewhere. Now, there are a couple of things I should admit: 1). I did replace the out-of-the-box MTA, because it was sendmail. I don't actually care too much about using sendmail, I happened to have configuration files that just work, because the entire mail subsystem wasn't rewritten recently, so I could just copy those files in place. 2). I care more about the server experience on this machine than pretty GUI stuff. I know that's no longer the default here :( I also like to think about what I want to base upon Fedora in the future. And the first person who mentions snmptrap events gets slapped. :) Well, I use SNMP for power control, etc. but even I am not anal enough to use it at home for logging. Jon. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Sunday, August 22, 2010 12:45:46 pm Rex Dieter wrote: pbrobin...@gmail.com wrote: I know its been discussed in the past but there's been reasons not to drop a default MTA but now that cronie (the last actual dependency) has support for logging to system logs is there any reason to include an MTA by default for F-14? A bit late to consider for F-14 imo (I'd argue something like should in place and testable by or near feature freeze), F-15 is doable. -- Rex I agree with Rex, this is a feature and we are way past feature freeze. It can not target F-14 but can be looked at for F-15 Dennis signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Sun, 2010-08-22 at 20:10 +0200, drago01 wrote: On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Rex Dieter rdie...@math.unl.edu wrote: pbrobin...@gmail.com wrote: I know its been discussed in the past but there's been reasons not to drop a default MTA but now that cronie (the last actual dependency) has support for logging to system logs is there any reason to include an MTA by default for F-14? A bit late to consider for F-14 imo (I'd argue something like should in place and testable by or near feature freeze), F-15 is doable. Test what? That no MTA is present? I'd say we should stop arguing forever and just do it. What's the benefit of having no default MTA at all? Is it that Desktop users don't care about MTAs being installed? what about those of us who care more about server installations than Desktop? Jon. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On 08/23/2010 02:21 PM, pbrobin...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 8:15 PM, Jon Mastersjonat...@jonmasters.org wrote: On Sun, 2010-08-22 at 20:10 +0200, drago01 wrote: On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Rex Dieterrdie...@math.unl.edu wrote: pbrobin...@gmail.com wrote: I know its been discussed in the past but there's been reasons not to drop a default MTA but now that cronie (the last actual dependency) has support for logging to system logs is there any reason to include an MTA by default for F-14? A bit late to consider for F-14 imo (I'd argue something like should in place and testable by or near feature freeze), F-15 is doable. Test what? That no MTA is present? I'd say we should stop arguing forever and just do it. What's the benefit of having no default MTA at all? Is it that Desktop users don't care about MTAs being installed? what about those of us who care more about server installations than Desktop? In a server config I'm sure the person configuring the server would know how to install a MTA, and in a lot of cases they might not want sendmail but rather say postfix/exim etc. All its doing is removing it from the base and core groups in comps. Peter I use it on desktop installs. I know how to install it, but might there be packages that require local MTA functionality that have heretofore assumed it would be there, but don't Require it? Might someone be able to find this out, someone with greater RPM-fu than my own? -J -- - in your fear, speak only peace in your fear, seek only love -d. bowie -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 03:15:11PM -0400, Jon Masters wrote: What's the benefit of having no default MTA at all? Is it that Desktop users don't care about MTAs being installed? what about those of us who care more about server installations than Desktop? Given the degree to which sysadmins are religious about MTA choice, I'd suspect that a large proportion of people who run an MTA on Fedora are probably already swapping it out with their own preference. I don't think it's realistic to expect us to provide a product that requires no further configuration for server admins, so adding Install an MTA to the list of things they have to do is entirely reasonable. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Mon, 2010-08-23 at 20:37 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 03:15:11PM -0400, Jon Masters wrote: What's the benefit of having no default MTA at all? Is it that Desktop users don't care about MTAs being installed? what about those of us who care more about server installations than Desktop? Given the degree to which sysadmins are religious about MTA choice, I'd suspect that a large proportion of people who run an MTA on Fedora are probably already swapping it out with their own preference. I don't think it's realistic to expect us to provide a product that requires no further configuration for server admins, so adding Install an MTA to the list of things they have to do is entirely reasonable. I agree that most admins do swap out the MTA (I always install exim). I just wanted to share that I consider there is some value in providing one by default, even if it is one that won't please everyone. I /think/ I'd rather have to remove sendmail and replace it than have none at all. Jon. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 8:30 PM, Jon Ciesla l...@jcomserv.net wrote: On 08/23/2010 02:21 PM, pbrobin...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 8:15 PM, Jon Mastersjonat...@jonmasters.org wrote: On Sun, 2010-08-22 at 20:10 +0200, drago01 wrote: On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Rex Dieterrdie...@math.unl.edu wrote: pbrobin...@gmail.com wrote: I know its been discussed in the past but there's been reasons not to drop a default MTA but now that cronie (the last actual dependency) has support for logging to system logs is there any reason to include an MTA by default for F-14? A bit late to consider for F-14 imo (I'd argue something like should in place and testable by or near feature freeze), F-15 is doable. Test what? That no MTA is present? I'd say we should stop arguing forever and just do it. What's the benefit of having no default MTA at all? Is it that Desktop users don't care about MTAs being installed? what about those of us who care more about server installations than Desktop? In a server config I'm sure the person configuring the server would know how to install a MTA, and in a lot of cases they might not want sendmail but rather say postfix/exim etc. All its doing is removing it from the base and core groups in comps. Peter I use it on desktop installs. I know how to install it, but might there be packages that require local MTA functionality that have heretofore assumed it would be there, but don't Require it? Might someone be able to find this out, someone with greater RPM-fu than my own? Well the default installed MTA, which is sendmail, requires configuration to send mail for anything other than local delivery and all the daemons send mail to root which also requires further configuration. Also anything that requires a MTA should require it as per standard package guidelines. Peter -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
This has all been talked about in the past and there was even some action taken on it. I wrote up the wiki page, but Will Woods did all the heavy lifting. We missed our target and appear to have been side tracked since but there aren't really many line items left before we can pull the trigger. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NoMTA -AdamM -- http://maxamillion.googlepages.com - () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
pbrobin...@gmail.com wrote: I know its been discussed in the past but there's been reasons not to drop a default MTA but now that cronie (the last actual dependency) has support for logging to system logs is there any reason to include an MTA by default for F-14? It would be good to define such a nonstandard abbreviation as MTA when posting a new thread so that more people would know what is being discussed. Thanks, Orcan -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 04:15:12PM -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote: It would be good to define such a nonstandard abbreviation as MTA when posting a new thread so that more people would know what is being discussed. It's actually a long-standing and well-recognized term. I think it's one of those cases where if you don't know what it means, you probably don't care. I mean, if you're outside of Massachusetts, why are you interested in the Teachers' Association? -- Matthew Miller mat...@mattdm.org Senior Systems Architect -- Instructional Research Computing Services Harvard School of Engineering Applied Sciences -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: drop default MTA for Fedora 15
On Mon, 2010-08-23 at 15:48 -0400, Jon Masters wrote: On Mon, 2010-08-23 at 20:37 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: Given the degree to which sysadmins are religious about MTA choice, I'd suspect that a large proportion of people who run an MTA on Fedora are probably already swapping it out with their own preference. I don't think it's realistic to expect us to provide a product that requires no further configuration for server admins, so adding Install an MTA to the list of things they have to do is entirely reasonable. I agree that most admins do swap out the MTA (I always install exim). I just wanted to share that I consider there is some value in providing one by default, even if it is one that won't please everyone. I /think/ I'd rather have to remove sendmail and replace it than have none at all. Current experience with VM images seems to indicate that server people ideally have a system that comes with very little more than coreutils, and build a kickstart for anything more complicated than that. If you want to provide an I don't care pick one template for mailserver images, awesome. But in general, if you _intend_ to send mail, you're opinionated enough to pick your own, at which point all that providing a default does is make the post-install transaction slower. Put another way: I don't think you really think that. - ajax signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
