RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Google Summer of Code
H. I would have to chew on that for a little bit. Can you give me an idea of how much work would be involved? I want to give a tentative yes, but I'm a little scared of over committing myself. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Ramsey Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 12:20 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Google Summer of Code Yes, but would be be willing to help out with *all* the administrative tasks :) that is, to be the official Administrator. P Landon Blake wrote: I'd be willing to help out with some of the administrative tasks if the OSGeo decided to take this on. The Sunburned Surveyor -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Ramsey Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 12:06 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Google Summer of Code Frank Warmerdam wrote: Howard Butler is already doing some legwork to identify projects, and students around GDAL but it hadn't occured to me to utilize OSGeo as the mentoring organization. If the different projects come up with a number of projects a students is it likely to be disadvantagous to have them all come from one organizations (OSGeo) as opposed to spread out as several different organizations submitting requests? You will need a sponsoring organization regardless, and if your organization is not accepted, the whole procedure becomes moot. Most unknown sponsors got the minimum three students last time. OSGeo, as an umbrella, nonprofit, multi-project, organization would probably get quite a few more. My feeling is that on balance the community would be better served using OSGeo as an umbrella rather than trying to go individually. What is important is that a large number of top quality students do work in the community. -- Paul Ramsey Refractions Research http://www.refractions.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 250-383-3022 Cell: 250-885-0632 ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Google Summer of Code
Perhaps we can devote a portion of the OSGeo Wiki that Frank set up for Soc for projects that will participate under the OSGeo umbrella. If we need to have our mentoring application submitted to Google within the next 2 weeks I'd like to see this list completed by Friday of this week so Frank and I will have some time to review and edit the application. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Horner Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 3:37 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Google Summer of Code Landon Blake wrote: As part of my efforts to be more active on the open source geospatial community I have agreed to help Frank Wammerdam with the Google Summer of Code coordination at the OSGeo. (Thanks to Paul Ramsey for some encouragement in this regard.) I'd really like to see some GeoTools and JUMP/OpenJUMP projects make it in to the Summer of Code umbrella at the OSGeo. I am willing to prepare a Summer of Code proposal for a DXF reader/writer that we can contribute to GeoTools and use in JUMP/OpenJUMP and UDig. I am also willing to prepare a proposal to add some improvements and new features to JTS. I would also mentor both projects. However, I don't know any students enrolled in programming courses that would be interested in this. I know some of my fellow JUMP/OpenJUMP developers and the GeoTools developers would be in a better position in this regard. If I prepare one or two of the proposals I mentioned will we be able to find interested students to participate? At the moment we all need to figure out who will be under which umbrella -- I would like to see OSGeo open a large umbrella and take in any open source geospatial projects, rather than just those which are bona fide OSGeo members. Finding students won't be a problem. The deadline for mentoring organization applications is in 2 weeks, looking like this: http://code.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=60303topic=10727 So a list needs to be put together of which groups (GeoTools, JUMP, Mapserver, GRASS, etc) are under OSGeo, who the potential mentors are for each, and a whole whack of project ideas. Based on discussion at the GSoc mentor summit last year, Google would not take kindly to groups trying to apply under more than one umbrella organization. Cheers, Cory. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Call for volunteers - Newsletter production team
Tyler, We had talked earlier about having me write some short articles on topology and spatial relationships. I noticed the newsletter will also have a spot for some programming tutorials. If you would like I can couple my articles on spatial relationships with some tutorials on the use of JTS, the open source Java Geometry Library. This would allow me to cover the concept in one part of the article, and to cover the application in another part. I might also be able to review some of the other programming tutorials. I'm not an expert in languages like C++, but I'm familiar with basic programming concepts and can check the articles for basic readability. I don't know much about LaTex, but I have used Scribus. If we ever decide to move the newsletter to Scribus I could help with the layout and graphical production. Landon P.S. - The GRASS Newsletter looked pretty extensive. Might it be better to start of with something slightly smaller? Maybe we could shoot for something with a news section and just 4 or 5 articles. I'd hate to se us get overwhelmed from the start. This is just a suggestion. :] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tyler Mitchell Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 9:49 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Cc: Martin Wegmann Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Call for volunteers - Newsletter production team Hi all, As you may be aware, last year the GRASS News production team offered to transition their great production into a brand new OSGeo Newsletter. Although branded as OSGeo, all open source projects are welcome to be part of it. For those of you who are unfamiliar with the last volume done under the GRASS name, have a look at this: http://osgeo.org/files/news/GRASS_OSGeo_News_vol4.pdf (5.3MB). As you can see it is much more than just some news clippings! Well, now is the time to get a new team together to help make a great production. You are invited to be part of that team! Want some exercise for your writing skills? Would you like to get some more exposure for your project? Want to learn the ins and outs of some publication software? Or do you just want to help spread the word about some projects or case studies that you love? There are several positions available for any volunteer who would help to coordinate collecting articles, writing content, reviewing content, helping with layout or graphics, and more. Want to sign up just for one volume or to test the waters first? That is fine too. Please see the Newsletter wiki page for a list of open positions and categories for content that need editors: http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Newsletter If you have any ideas, reservations, comments, questions or concerns please just let me or Martin (cc'd) know! As we will all work as a team, please do not be shy about your interests, even if you are going to need some help getting started. After the team is gathered and production deadlines are finalised, then we will make a more general call for contributors. If you already have something that you would like to contribute, you are welcome to sign up now on the page: http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Newsletter_Volume_1 Hope you will join us in putting this together! Tyler ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] 2007 Google Summer of Code (Student Project Ideas List)
I am going to try and help Frank get our ideas list for Google's 2007 Summer of Code wrapped up by the end of the week. I know that the participating projects have already done a lot of this work here: http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Google_Summer_of_Code However, I was hoping I could request some assistance from the participating projects so that I can get a finalized list put together. I'd like to ask if each of the participating projects could e-mail me a text file with the following information for each student project idea: [1] The name of the Student Project Idea. [2] The mentor that will be assigned to the project if it is accepted by Google. I think we want something definite here. Not possible mentor or suggested mentor. I think the projects need to get this nailed down. [3] A brief, one or two paragraph, description of the Student Project Idea. It is important to remember that the students reviewing these idea lists may not be GIS or programming experts, or experts on your particular software, so be careful about your use of technical terms and jargon. Please also do not send a link to another web page that contains the description of the student project idea. I'd like to have this information self-contained in the text file. You can include links to technical specifications or other information that applies to the Student Project Idea and that the student may find helpful in considering the project. [4] The contact information for a person the student can talk to for more information about a Student Project Idea. One of the reasons we'd like to do this is to encourage participating projects to really look at their own Student Project Ideas list so they can tie up any loose ends. We really appreciate each of the participating projects taking the time to do this. I will review each submitted lists to check for things like spelling and grammar errors, broken hyperlinks, and for things that just don't make sense. I'll try to approach this review from the perspective of a student, and will direct the questions about the Student Project Idea description to the appropriate participating project. We prefer to have a short list of well-thought out Student Project Ideas with few errors, rather than a long list of confusing or unclear Student Project Ideas with lots of mistakes and errors. Thanks, Landon (A.K.A. - The Sunburned Surveyor) Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] 2007 Google Summer of Code (Student Project IdeasList)
Perhaps I am out of the loop on this one. I did exchange e-mails with Frank this morning, and he said that I could move forward. I will contact him again to clarify, perhaps I misunderstood his instructions. What you said about matching a mentor based on student location makes some sense. I apologize to all on the list if I am nagging about something that has already been taken care of. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jody Garnett Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 12:03 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] 2007 Google Summer of Code (Student Project IdeasList) I think you are a bit late to be asking this one; we rounded up ideas last week ... and the request was for possible mentor. Matching up student with mentor is as much a game of timezone, common spoken language as it is knowledge. For projects such as GeoTools, uDig, GeoServer the contact information is the same (seek yee the developers list) ... Let's try this again, on #osgeo Jody Landon Blake wrote: I am going to try and help Frank get our ideas list for Google's 2007 Summer of Code wrapped up by the end of the week. I know that the participating projects have already done a lot of this work here: http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Google_Summer_of_Code However, I was hoping I could request some assistance from the participating projects so that I can get a finalized list put together. I'd like to ask if each of the participating projects could e-mail me a text file with the following information for each student project idea: [1] The name of the Student Project Idea. [2] The mentor that will be assigned to the project if it is accepted by Google. I think we want something definite here. Not possible mentor or suggested mentor. I think the projects need to get this nailed down. [3] A brief, one or two paragraph, description of the Student Project Idea. It is important to remember that the students reviewing these idea lists may not be GIS or programming experts, or experts on your particular software, so be careful about your use of technical terms and jargon. Please also do not send a link to another web page that contains the description of the student project idea. I'd like to have this information self-contained in the text file. You can include links to technical specifications or other information that applies to the Student Project Idea and that the student may find helpful in considering the project. [4] The contact information for a person the student can talk to for more information about a Student Project Idea. One of the reasons we'd like to do this is to encourage participating projects to really look at their own Student Project Ideas list so they can tie up any loose ends. We really appreciate each of the participating projects taking the time to do this. I will review each submitted lists to check for things like spelling and grammar errors, broken hyperlinks, and for things that just don't make sense. I'll try to approach this review from the perspective of a student, and will direct the questions about the Student Project Idea description to the appropriate participating project. We prefer to have a short list of well-thought out Student Project Ideas with few errors, rather than a long list of confusing or unclear Student Project Ideas with lots of mistakes and errors. Thanks, Landon (A.K.A. - The Sunburned Surveyor) *Warning: *Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] 2007 Google Summer of Code (StudentProject IdeasList)
Thanks for that clarification Jody. As you can see, I don't have a great understanding about how GeoTools works. I was mainly trying to help Frank complete the next step in the process. Now that I have a better understanding of the purpose for the ideas list I will get back in touch with Frank to see what I can do next. Thanks for you patient assistance. Landon P.S. - I think I have successfully installed Chatzilla and logged onto the geotools IRC channel. What time is the meeting supposed to start? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jody Garnett Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 12:21 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] 2007 Google Summer of Code (StudentProject IdeasList) For clarification .. the ideas pages are kind of useless IMHO. They are not the point ... They are mostly there to inspire students; and give an impression of what kinds of topics each project likes to play with. The great part about SoC last year was the students ideas (after all we are interested in new blood here, rather then pet projects the community has not had time to build itself yet). Having a list of potential mentors for students is the goal; if a potential mentor wants to put there name down next to an idea they may attract a discussion. Indeed when we evaluated student proposals we tended to score lower students that just copied and pasted ideas from our own list (students that picked the ideas and took them out on the town tended to do better). Cheers, Jody Perhaps I am out of the loop on this one. I did exchange e-mails with Frank this morning, and he said that I could move forward. I will contact him again to clarify, perhaps I misunderstood his instructions. What you said about matching a mentor based on student location makes some sense. I apologize to all on the list if I am nagging about something that has already been taken care of. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jody Garnett Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 12:03 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] 2007 Google Summer of Code (Student Project IdeasList) I think you are a bit late to be asking this one; we rounded up ideas last week ... and the request was for possible mentor. Matching up student with mentor is as much a game of timezone, common spoken language as it is knowledge. For projects such as GeoTools, uDig, GeoServer the contact information is the same (seek yee the developers list) ... Let's try this again, on #osgeo Jody Landon Blake wrote: I am going to try and help Frank get our ideas list for Google's 2007 Summer of Code wrapped up by the end of the week. I know that the participating projects have already done a lot of this work here: http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Google_Summer_of_Code However, I was hoping I could request some assistance from the participating projects so that I can get a finalized list put together. I'd like to ask if each of the participating projects could e-mail me a text file with the following information for each student project idea: [1] The name of the Student Project Idea. [2] The mentor that will be assigned to the project if it is accepted by Google. I think we want something definite here. Not possible mentor or suggested mentor. I think the projects need to get this nailed down. [3] A brief, one or two paragraph, description of the Student Project Idea. It is important to remember that the students reviewing these idea lists may not be GIS or programming experts, or experts on your particular software, so be careful about your use of technical terms and jargon. Please also do not send a link to another web page that contains the description of the student project idea. I'd like to have this information self-contained in the text file. You can include links to technical specifications or other information that applies to the Student Project Idea and that the student may find helpful in considering the project. [4] The contact information for a person the student can talk to for more information about a Student Project Idea. One of the reasons we'd like to do this is to encourage participating projects to really look at their own Student Project Ideas list so they can tie up any loose ends. We really appreciate each of the participating projects taking the time to do this. I will review each submitted lists to check for things like spelling and grammar errors, broken hyperlinks, and for things that just don't make sense. I'll try to approach this review from the perspective of a student, and will direct the questions about the Student Project Idea description to the appropriate participating project. We prefer to have a short list of well-thought out Student Project Ideas with few errors, rather than a long list
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Libre Graphics Meeting - Montreal, May 4-6
FYI, OpenJUMP can import ESRI Shapefiles and has some limited ability to export SVG. I believe some of our users are using this feature and Inkscape to produce maps. I hope to revisit OpenJUMP's SVG export abilities in the next year. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of P Kishor Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 7:58 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Libre Graphics Meeting - Montreal, May 4-6 On 4/6/07, Tyler Mitchell (OSGeo) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was talking to some folks involved with the Libre Graphics Meeting (below) and I think it'd be interesting to try to find some synergies between our geospatial visualisation needs and their applications: Blender, GIMP, Inkscape, Krita, Scribus. We all know map production is near and dear to our hearts and similar concepts are to theirs too. It'd be great if someone could go and do a presentation about our perspective on graphics with geo on the brain. A long time ago, another life, another place, I used a product called Mapublisher made by a Canadian company called Avenza. A plugin for Adobe Illustrator, t allowed me to import shapefiles into Illustrator and create nice looking posters/graphics, basically bypass the limitations of Arcview or of cutting and pasting bitmaps. Slick idea, it was. I believe Deneba's Canvas (or whatever the company is called now) does that as well. Having the ability to import shapefiles into Inkscape (a really fun product) would be very nice. . -- Puneet Kishor http://punkish.eidesis.org/ Nelson Inst. for Env. Studies, UW-Madison http://www.nelson.wisc.edu/ Open Source Geospatial Foundation http://www.osgeo.org/education/ - collaborate, communicate, compete = ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [Geodata] Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata
Thanks for that Link Michael. It will be useful. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adair, Mike Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 10:38 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [Geodata] Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata More from the Canadian perspective - the GeoConnections program policy group has produced a Best Practices Guide for licensing of geospatial data which might help to inform the debate: http://www.geoconnections.org/publications/Best_practices_guide/Guide_to_Best_Practices_v12_finale_e.pdf It provides a good overview of the background issues and proposes 3 types of licences to standardize on: unrestricted-use with licence acknowledgement (click-through), an end-user licence and a distributor licence. Michael Adair GeoConnections Secretariat / Secrétariat de GéoConnexions 615 Booth St, 6th Floor / 615 rue Booth, 6e étage Ottawa, ON, K1A 0E9 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone / Téléphone: (613) 947-1342 Fax / Télécopieur: (613) 947-2410 www.geoconnections.org / www.geoconnexions.org -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Patton Sent: April 1, 2007 2:05 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [Geodata] Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata Jason Birch wrote: I'm sure that most of you have seen this, but these two free data resources (provincial and federal Canadian governements) are both employing a form of copyleft: Kamloops (Canadian municipality) takes an interesting approach. Given the interest, maybe the 'OSGeo people' who are already involved could organize a BOF session, and also do some presentations. If there are 'local' resources such as Canadian municipal/provincial/federal managers(or perhaps even better, people from their legal departments) who could attend, then perhaps they could also participate in the BOF/presentations. Also, maybe there are lawyers who are local(e.g. Victoria or BC) any who have some interest or expertise who could attend - even if their perspective is based on Canadian law, it might still help illuminate the discussions. -- Dave Patton Canadian Coordinator, Degree Confluence Project http://www.confluence.org/ Personal website - Maps, GPS, etc. http://members.shaw.ca/davepatton/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Fwd: [Imendio Announce] GNOME Mobile And EmbeddedInitiative Announced]
I didn't see a mailing list for this on GNOME. Is it at another site? Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cameron Shorter Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 1:12 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Fwd: [Imendio Announce] GNOME Mobile And EmbeddedInitiative Announced] I'd imagine this would be of interest to those working on mobile Geospatial applications. You might want to join their email lists and introduce them to OSGeo. -- Cameron Shorter Systems Architect, http://lisasoft.com.au Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050 Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254 Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] making a living with OS geo software
Pierre, I think there are basically two or three approaches you can take. [1] Go specialized and focus on one or two related open source GIS applications. Then focus on offering training and support for those products. [2] Take a more jack of all trades approach, and offer more general consulting services for organizations exploring open source geospatial solutions. [3] Focus not on a specific piece of software, but on a particular application of GIS. For example, become an expert in parcel management with GIS, or fleet tracking with GIS, or precision agriculture with GIS, or... I personally think you'll be more successful with the first or third approach. Gain expertise in a particular niche and your reputation for expertise will bring you business. I'd like to do the same thing that you have discussed at some point in the future, at least on a part time basis. If you would like you can contact me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] and I can discuss some of the ideas I had for starting a similar type of enterprise. Landon P.S. - If you don't know any programming start learning now. You are going to need it. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of pierre charlus Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 11:47 AM To: discuss@lists.osgeo.org Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] making a living with OS geo software Hi, I just lost my job. I've learned some geospatial stuff. Mapserver, mapscript, Chameleon, postgis and recently OpenLayers at a university. I was wondering, since I'd like to go freelance, what's working (professionally wise) and in what direction I should orient myself as to make a little cash - enough to make a living without having to cope with the laborious collateral stuff usually associated with a regular job Any advice appreciated. Regards, Pierre Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] Software Standards - The Ugly Truth
I'm sending this to GeoWanking and OSGeo discuss, so I apologize in advance if your inbox gets hit with it twice. :] I've written a blog post on the OpenJUMP blog about some of the problems with software standards. I imagine this post will make some people upset, but I think it raises some valid points. I don't think that everyone involved in open source GIS will agree with me, but I think I identify some problems with the love of standards that our of particular interest to our community. (In a way that isn't of interest to those that develop closed-source GIS programs.) At any rate, the post is a long one, so if you do read it give yourself 5 or 10 minutes. Before you flame me remember that I'm just a surveyor that has seen too much sun, and that my opinion doesn't count for a whole lot in the big scheme of things. :] You can read the post here: http://openjump.blogspot.com/ The Sunburned Surveyor Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGEO OGC spec development
One of my biggest problems with the OGC is the lack of a practical membership avenue for open source projects and/or programmers. I think it would be great if the OSGeo or some of its participating projects could serve as a vehicle that would allow for more participation by the open source community in OGC standard development. The Sunburned Surveyor From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeroen Ticheler Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 2:12 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGEO OGC spec development Hi all, Last week I attended the Open Geospatial Consortium Technical Committee (OGC-TC) meeting in Paris. For those not to familiar with this meeting, it consists of a series of Working Group (WG) meetings that mostly run around the development of specifications (or standards if you wish) dealing with geo-informatics. The most prominent specifications coming from OGC are Web Map Service (WMS), Web Feature Service (WFS) and Geographic Markup Language (GML). There's a whole list of other specs available or under development. OSGEO projects work with a substantial number of them. See http://www.opengeospatial org for more details. With this email I would like to touch upon two issues that I think are relevant to OSGEO. I hope bringing this up can trigger some discussion on how OSGEO would best benefit from the OGC spec development process: 1- Discussions related to Google's KML and Web Map Context 2- Discussions related to a Tiled Web Map Service specifications There was discussion on the possibility that KML becomes an OGC specification and, more importantly, that it could be used to replace the wining Web Map Context (WMC) specification. A number of OSGEO projects use the Styled Layer Descriptors (SLD (symbology)) specification and the WMC. There's a great deal of overlap between these and KML. It is likely in the interest of these projects to share their experience with OGC and see some of that reflected in future OGC specs. There was also discussion about a new Tiled WMS specification. Such spec can have different forms, and could be conceived as a new spec or as an extension (or application profile) of a Web Map Service. Two approaches were presented and two other approaches were mentioned, among which the approach taken within the OSGEO community. Observing these discussions, my impression is that OSGEO has an important role to play in the further development of these OGC specs. We can obviously take the easy route and let OGC go its way. We could than come up with in-house, open specifications that will compete with OGC specs still under development. The development of the specs is likely to be quicker than going through OGC. However, I feel that with limited effort by the community we can have a very positive influence on the OGC spec development. We can make sure experiences in OSGEO are reflected in the OGC specs. The WMS-T is an obvious example of this. It was kind of frustrating to not see that experience properly represented at the WMS-WG. OSGEO is very young still, so frustration is not an expression of dissatisfaction in this case :-) rather, I think it might be time to establish a way to formally represent OSGEO in OGC. This could be through those OSGEO members that already hold a TC level membership to OGC (the logical first step I would think) and later possibly through a direct OSGEO TC Membership to OGC. Also, we could consider a focal point in OSGEO where specification development is discussed and coordinated. This may have the form of a Committee for instance. I'm hesitant to propose new Committees, but if there's enough interest to have a central coordination point dealing with standards and specs, it may make sense :-) Greetings from Rome, Jeroen ___ Jeroen Ticheler FAO-UN Tel: +39 06 57056041 http://www.fao.org/geonetwork 42.07420°N 12.34343°E Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGEO OGC spec development
It appears that some of my concerns about problems with OGC membership remain in place. I'm disappointed to learn that non-members are no longer allowed to join in the discussion. The individual membership option also presents challenges for some open source developers like myself, who have a day job that doesn't pay for their involvement in an open source project, or for any type of programming. I know $400.00 doesn't sound like a lot, but you probably haven't tried asking my wife to write that check either. :] Raj wrote: You can qualify if no one else (such as a full-time employer) has legal rights to all your work. I imagine this could also present some problems for some of our OSGeo members. In the end, I think the OSGeo membership system is far superior to the one at the OGC. It is based on participation and qualifications, not on money. It is one of the main reasons I try to be involved at some level in this organization, and not at any level in the other one. :] Perhaps the OSGeo could approach the OGC about some form of alternative membership system for open source projects. I hate to see the open source community excluded from the standards development process. I really think everyone could benefit if our voices were included. Then again, this may not bother other people like it bothers me. So I'll stop my complaining now. :] The Sunburned Surveyor -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Raj Singh Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 1:28 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGEO OGC spec development But there is now officially an individual membership category. Info isn't up on the web site yet, but I think its $400/year. You can qualify if no one else (such as a full-time employer) has legal rights to all your work. On Jul 17, 2007, at 4:23 PM, Paul Ramsey wrote: That's not an option any more, only members and prospective members may attend TC henceforth. Ian Turton wrote: You could also just attend the meetings as a non-member as Paul Ramsey does sometimes, or just ask some of us who do go to meetings to make your points for you. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] Software Standards - A Start
There were a few recent threads about software standards. Some of these threads dealt specifically with the role of OSGeo in software standards development and the OGC. I didn't what this conversation to die out, because I think it is very important to the survival of open source software, and a topic that is important to me personally. I know we may not be ready for a mailing list on this topic just yet, but I did throw up a page on the OSGeo wiki. You can find it here: http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Software_Standards#Suggested_Standards I put together a rough outline or skeleton for some discussion and/or information on software standards. Please feel free to flesh out some of this skeleton, and to express your opinion on the listed topics. I have also posted a link to a little rough sketching I did a couple of months ago on a open file format that I could use to replace ESRI Shapefiles in OpenJUMP. I'm not an expert programmer, or that good with binary data, but I thought I would throw a link to my sketches on the page so others could comment. Go ahead and tear it apart! :] If nothing else, it may stimulate some discussion. You'll find the link to my sketches under the Suggested Standards heading. Landon (A.K.A. - The Sunburned Surveyor) Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Hello
Welcome to the list Andrew. I look forward to hearing what you have to contribute to our discussions. Landon From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrew Ross Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 1:12 PM To: discuss@lists.osgeo.org Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Hello Hi Everyone, I am new to the list and I'd just like to take a moment to say hello to everyone. I work on the Engineering team at Ingres corporation from a home office in Ottawa, Canada. I'll try and jump into the discussions where I can participate. I'm sure I'll inevitably be lurking a lot of the time. I'm looking forward to the discussions and hopefully meeting you in the future. Thank you, Andrew Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo Board Election Results
I wanted to add my agreement with a couple of the statements made on this topic. First of all, I agree with Gary, I don't think the benefit of releasing the tallies outweighs the harmful side effects. Secondly, I think it would be a great idea to release a map showing the location of the board members that voted. Thirdly, I know that I voted for the members that I was the most familiar with. Perhaps an interesting approach at the next election would be to have the nominees answer a set of questions selected from the charter members. We could post each nominee's answer to the questions on the wiki. For example, we might ask the nominee what the GIS free software community's greatest challenge is, and what role they think the OSGeo should have in overcoming this challenge. The Sunburned Surveyor -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Sherman Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 6:50 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo Board Election Results What purpose is served by displaying the results in this way? I see absolutely no benefit, other than to create an ad-hoc popularity contest to see who beat out whom. What lessons can be learned from having the tally known? How can it benefit OSGeo in future elections? Will it deter people from running in the future? The votes were not posted publicly, we know who won, leave it at that. If the final tally by person is made public, will we next ask to see how each charter member voted? This is beyond openness. -gary (Yes I was a candidate, yes I was not elected, no this has nothing to do with my position on this issue) On Aug 9, 2007, at 11:20 AM, Frank Warmerdam wrote: P Kishor wrote: In the spirit of openness, it would be worthwhile seeing where the charter members thought it best to cast their votes. While embarrassment is a possible consequence, I believe if I were running for a Board member, and if I lost, I would still like to see the votes... I am not interested in seeing who voted for who... I am more interested in seeing the voting pattern as a reflection of the pattern of interest, awareness, and even a need for doing more. Puneet (and Tamas, Bart, ...) I don't have a strong opinion on this. If someone would like to take this issue formally to the board I would encourage you to write up a position in the wiki and add it as a topic for the next board meeting agenda at: http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Twenty_Eighth_Board_Meeting If so, I'd ask that you be available to speak on behalf of the issue for the next board meeting. Alternatively, the topic could be discussed at the AGM at FOSS4G (planned for late on the Monday I believe). I can't seem to find a wiki page about the AGM, though I think one exists. Of course, discussing here is fine too, but ultimately for action it is helpful for someone to carry the ball. I'm not going to be that person given a lack of enthusiasm about the idea. Best regards, -- --- +-- I set the clouds in motion - turn up | Frank Warmerdam, [EMAIL PROTECTED] light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam and watch the world go round - Rush| President OSGeo, http:// osgeo.org ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- Gary Sherman Chair, QGIS Project Steering Committee Micro Resources: http://mrcc.com *Geospatial Hosting *Web Site Hosting We work virtually everywhere -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo Board Election Results
Tyler wrote: I have thought about this too and agree. We could even open this up to receive ideas from the membership at large, then boil it down to a reasonable set. I had hoped there would be more discussion/debate about the candidates before the voting started - there was barely any - but having a selected set of required questions would help to serve the same purpose next time. I would be more than willing to help with this process before our next election. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tyler Mitchell (OSGeo) Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 1:58 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo Board Election Results On 10-Aug-07, at 7:26 AM, Landon Blake wrote: I wanted to add my agreement with a couple of the statements made on this topic. First of all, I agree with Gary, I don't think the benefit of releasing the tallies outweighs the harmful side effects. I'm just catching up on this thread, I didn't realise it was such a hot topic. I'm all for debate about how to improve our processes, but I don't like the idea of changing a process after the fact. I also agreed with the idea of not releasing a full ordered list with vote tallies. I didn't even provide the top 5 in order of rank, instead did it in alphabetical order. Otherwise, all you would get is a relative ordering of people versus other people. Did someone vote more for one person because of their geographical location? Or because there were better known or better qualified? Or because they thought they had the best chance of winning? Or did they like everyone but chose them randomly? You could infer a reason for the order, but it would be pure speculation without knowing from every voter what they were thinking. So, in the end, I believe that the number of votes is meaningless except to appease curiosity. If we eventually move to an online system for managing elections then I'm sure the topic will come up again, as will the questions of giving multiple votes to one nominee or for voting for yourself. All good issue worthy of debate, in my opinion. Perhaps an interesting approach at the next election would be to have the nominees answer a set of questions selected from the charter members. We could post each nominee's answer to the questions on the wiki. I have thought about this too and agree. We could even open this up to receive ideas from the membership at large, then boil it down to a reasonable set. I had hoped there would be more discussion/debate about the candidates before the voting started - there was barely any - but having a selected set of required questions would help to serve the same purpose next time. Sincerely, Tyler ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: [OSGeo_discuss] Re: FOSS GIS in India
I wanted to comment on some things that Tyler said: Tyler wrote: However, professionals who build their skills on top of open source tools have complete freedom, motivation and encouragement in their careers without licensing constraints. There is an important freedom that comes with open source software in an educational or training environment. That is the freedom for the student to look into the guts of the program to see how a GIS program accomplished a specific task. For example, if I want to know how OpenJUMP paints a line segment representing a road on my computer monitor I can look into the code and find out. If I am interested in developing an algorithm to solve a particular problem in geospatial analysis I can look at other open source code that tackles the same, or similar problems. I believe open source software is one of the most provides one of the most powerful tools to teach GIS. There is no better test of a student's understanding of a geospatial principle than the test that requires them to write functioning source code that works on that principle. I really believe GIS as a profession would be better of if all who practiced it did a little closet programming. :] Tyler wrote: We know that all too often proposals or contracts require specific software - often without any rationale except comfort by the client. Instead, is it not in our collective best interests to encourage professionals to use the best tool they know to do the job? We are fighting the beast called corporate monopoly in this case. But I think we have indirectly identified an important way to fight this monopoly. Promote the use of open source GIS software in our educational institutions. People use what they learn, and they learn what they are taught in school. As an example of this, a certain unnamed surveying equipment vendor supplied my small community college with as many seats of their software package as we wanted. What was the end result? All of my graduating class left comfortable with that vendors way of doing things, right or wrong, good or bad. When we eventually make it into responsible positions, guess what we do? We buy that same software. Those free licenses given to the community college was the best money that vendor ever spent. Maybe we need to do something similar with community colleges, trade schools, and universities that teach GIS classes. Perhaps we can set up an online course materials sponsored and maintained by the OSGeo that these institutions could use. Landon From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tyler Mitchell (OSGeo) Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 11:41 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: [OSGeo_discuss] Re: FOSS GIS in India On 11-Aug-07, at 9:08 PM, RAVI KUMAR wrote: Emphasis is to be on GIS tools and principles, and not on GIS brand labels. This is the important part for me, allow me to take it a step further. One of my interests is to see professionals develop their skills for geospatial analysis, mapping, etc. This does not require any particular brand of software. However, professionals who build their skills on top of open source tools have complete freedom, motivation and encouragement in their careers without licensing constraints. As long as the concepts are well taught, they can likely learn (or re-train) to cover any particular instance of geospatial applications in any workplace. In the bigger picture this is a conflict between corporate standards and recognising professional choice or capabilities. We know that all too often proposals or contracts require specific software - often without any rationale except comfort by the client. Instead, is it not in our collective best interests to encourage professionals to use the best tool they know to do the job? This takes faith in professional skill sets instead of faith in a particular software package. Whether the package is open source or proprietary is important from a licensing or philosophical standpoint, but when I look at people who are training to work in the field I'd much rather see them develop/learn tools that they can use for the rest of their careers. Unfortunately we aren't required to bring our tools with us to our jobs to prove our skills - instead we're given tools within the confines of the workplace and expected to know how to use them. That seems reasonable but is very limiting. Fellow staff that I have worked with in the past have appreciated the option of finding the best tool for the job instead of being forced to use one that they might never have access to again in the future. Hope this makes some sense. Tyler Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
[OSGeo-Discuss] Program For Public Review Of Patents
The United States Patent Office has put together a program that allows for some public input in patent review. You can find the website here: http://www.peertopatent.org/ Here is an article about the program on Linux.com: http://www.linux.com/feature/118349 I think this might be a good opportunity for the OSGeo to get involved in reviewing patents for geospatial applications. Would there be any interest in this? Landon Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Return on Equity
I am involved in another organization that illustrates why I participate in the OSGeo. I thought sharing that might add something to the return on equity conversation. On a regular basis I meet with 20 to 30 other surveyors that are members of the local California Land Surveyors Association Chapter. We hold the meetings to meet one another and to discuss items of concern to our profession. I don't know that we necessarily get any tangible return on equity from our involvement, but it is important to all of us. I look at the OSGeo in a similar manner. I'm not GIS Certified or a part of an organization like URISA. In a way the OSGeo serves as my professional organization for GIS. It gives me the opportunity to learn from and share with other GIS professionals with whom I have some common interests and values. I think we need to remember OSGeo is as much about the people as it is about the software. On a related note, I have heard that organizations like the OSGeo slowly die if their members don't have an agenda of action items to work on. I guess this is related to the united by a common enemy principle. I'm not saying that we need a common enemy, but I think that having definite problems or challenges that we address as an organization will make us healthier. Here are some examples of the problems or challenges I am talking about: [1] Affordable and reasonable access to publicly funded geospatial data. [2] Privacy concerns with geospatial data. [3] Affordable and reasonable access to geospatial education focused on open source software and technical principles, not on button pushing. [4] Promotion of open source GIS as a tool that can be used to better the lives of the people in our society. Promotion and support of open source software is an important part of what we do at the OSGeo. But if you really want to make OSGeo an organization that matters to the general public you have to see it as an organization that promotes the use of open source GIS to solve the bigger challenges listed above. My return on equity from the OSGeo is the opportunity to do some of those things. I don't want to just write great open source software, I want to do great things with the software I write. I think the OSGeo can provide me the opportunity to do that. Landon P.S. - Thanks to Howard for the excellent post. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jody Garnett Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 9:48 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Return on Equity vs leech of resources Thanks for the insight; Right now the pitch is: We are taking part in OSGeo in order to meet with the rest of the community I am not looking for much return out of OSGeo until the projects I am involved in finish incubation (am I alone in this?). So far I feel bad that we are taking up tones of time, occasional legal council etc...after incubation involvement should become more positive (marketing etc...) Jody Howard Butler wrote: Open source software works because people acting in their own self interest have the auxiliary benefit of helping everyone in the project. Report your pet bug, file a patch, add a new feature -- all of these things immediately help you, but ultimately help the project. This activity also imparts tangential benefits that are very hard to quantify but can be clearly important like personal visibility, credibility, and status. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Return on Equity
Frank wrote: I'm not worried so much about OSGeo as an organization that matters to the general public. I'd be pleased to see it matter to developers and users of open source geospatial software (and helping to grow that pool). Perhaps it is best to start with modest goals and the goal you describe above is a modest AND logical. I just think that open source GIS software opens up the door for GIS to be used in a lot of other places that are now prevented from doing so because of price. For example, I volunteer with a non-profit organization that assists the United States Forest Service with care of the Mokelumne Wilderness. That type of group could never afford a big-brand GIS program. But I am going to try to use OpenJUMP to support their efforts. The same applies to developing countries, which has been discussed on this list previously. That is were the real beauty of the open source gem shines. Putting a tool into the hands of people so that they can accomplish a greater good. Open source software development is all about circumventing the unbalanced desire for profit and the secrecy that results to accomplish a greater good. It seems like a natural fit to me. But I'm getting totally sidetracked. I apologize for that. My original point was that I'm involved in OSGeo as much for the people as I am for the benefits to my open source software project. The people are part of my return on equity. Landon (A.K.A. - The Sunburned Surveyor) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frank Warmerdam Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 12:13 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Return on Equity Landon Blake wrote: Promotion and support of open source software is an important part of what we do at the OSGeo. But if you really want to make OSGeo an organization that matters to the general public you have to see it as an organization that promotes the use of open source GIS to solve the bigger challenges listed above. My return on equity from the OSGeo is the opportunity to do some of those things. I don't want to just write great open source software, I want to do great things with the software I write. I think the OSGeo can provide me the opportunity to do that. Landon, I think this is an interesting point. A part of why I write open source software is that I want my software to be used, and in particular I want my software to enable things of social value that might not otherwise have happened. If there are people willing to help make it happen, I'd like to see OSGeo support socially relavent organizations in use of open source software. I'm not so such I worry about OSGeo an organization that matters to the general public. I'd be pleased to see it matter to developers and users of open source geospatial software (and helping to grow that pool). Best regards, -- ---+ -- I set the clouds in motion - turn up | Frank Warmerdam, [EMAIL PROTECTED] light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam and watch the world go round - Rush| President OSGeo, http://osgeo.org ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] Steps To Creating A Simple Vector Based GIS (Using FOSS...Of Course)
I was wondering if there was a good tutorial or article about creating a simple vector-based GIS using FOSS? I don't want something too software specific. I'm really looking for something that covers the basic principles. I'm starting a new vector-based GIS for a volunteer group and I was hoping to find some vendor-neutral material in this area. I've been using the Designing Geodatabases: Case Studies in GIS Data Modeling Book by ESRI when I decided it would be nice to have a tutorial for people who decide to design their first GIS outside of ESRI's world. I made an outline for such a document or tutorial which you can find here: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=df5nfmf8_30rvgj7j I thought that I would try to review other material on the subject, if there was any, before I write the article. I appreciate any references or suggestions. Landon (A.K.A. - The Sunburned Surveyor) P.S. - I'm going to shoot this off to the Geowanking list as well. Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] Links For Scribus, Inkscape, and Sample OpenJUMP Maps
I should have included these links in my earlier post. http://www.inkscape.org/ http://www.scribus.net/ http://openjump.org/wiki/show/Printing+in+high-resolution http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel:How_to_draw_a_map Landon Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] Possible Purchase Of Magellan Mobile Mapper Pro Units
Mr. Skeen, I work for a land surveying and civil engineering company in the California Central Valley. We are currently considering the purchase of two (2) to three (3) mobile GIS/GPS units. We had first considered the Juno ST/TerraSync units from Trimble, but were a little dismayed at the price of the required office software. I was tasked with considering other options. I've had a look at the Moble Mapper Pro (http://pro.magellangps.com/assets/datasheets/MobileMapper_EN_l.pdf) units from Magellan Professional, and it seems like one of these units with the Mobile Mapper Office software would be a comparable package at a much lower price. I was wondering if it would be possible to arrange a demonstration of a Mobile Mapper Pro unit in the next few weeks, perhaps on a previously planned trip to the Central Valley? I was also wondering if it would be possible to obtain an evaluation copy of the Mobile Mapper Office software. Thank you for considering my inquiry. Landon Blake - Project Surveyor (LSIT) KSN Inc. - Civil Engineers and Land Surveyors 711 N. Pershing Avenue Stockton, California 95203 Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268 Work Cell Phone: (209) 992-0658 Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Possible Purchase Of Magellan Mobile Mapper ProUnits
Sorry about this list. I hit the wrong address on the To button in Microsoft Outlook. Landon From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Landon Blake Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 12:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: OSGeo Discussions Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Possible Purchase Of Magellan Mobile Mapper ProUnits Mr. Skeen, I work for a land surveying and civil engineering company in the California Central Valley. We are currently considering the purchase of two (2) to three (3) mobile GIS/GPS units. We had first considered the Juno ST/TerraSync units from Trimble, but were a little dismayed at the price of the required office software. I was tasked with considering other options. I've had a look at the Moble Mapper Pro (http://pro.magellangps.com/assets/datasheets/MobileMapper_EN_l.pdf) units from Magellan Professional, and it seems like one of these units with the Mobile Mapper Office software would be a comparable package at a much lower price. I was wondering if it would be possible to arrange a demonstration of a Mobile Mapper Pro unit in the next few weeks, perhaps on a previously planned trip to the Central Valley? I was also wondering if it would be possible to obtain an evaluation copy of the Mobile Mapper Office software. Thank you for considering my inquiry. Landon Blake - Project Surveyor (LSIT) KSN Inc. - Civil Engineers and Land Surveyors 711 N. Pershing Avenue Stockton, California 95203 Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268 Work Cell Phone: (209) 992-0658 Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Supporting new projects
I like the idea of an OSGeo Labs wiki page. I really don't think a company or organization wanting to open source a geospatial program would really need a lot of infrastructure from the OSGeo. A hosting site like SourceForge provides all of the infrastructure a project needs to get up and running. They have support for a project website, wiki, mailing lists and CVS or SVN source code repositories. Why would OSGeo put a lot of time and effort into providing similar infrastructure when it is already available? It seems a better use of resources at the OSGeo would be in providing advice and assistance for tasks like choosing an appropriate license, tips on managing a source code repository, and managing a new user and/or developer community. It seems these areas would be more unknown to a typical company or organization than something like setting up a mailing list. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frank Warmerdam Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 8:30 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Supporting new projects On 10/2/07, Julien-Samuel Lacroix [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree with you that the front page recommandations should remain for incubated or in-incubation projects, but does a OSGeo Labs page could be an option for project wanting to join OSGeo? A page with a list of project that are not part of the OSGeo yet and are not hosted by OSGeo, but are known by OSGeo as friends. Or at least a How to join page for new projects could help a lot. Julien, Could you launch an OSGeo Labs page in the wiki? If it shapes up well, we can look at linking it from somewhere reasonably prominent. Best regards, -- ---+ -- I set the clouds in motion - turn up | Frank Warmerdam, [EMAIL PROTECTED] light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam and watch the world go round - Rush| Geospatial Programmer for Rent ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Supporting new projects
I would be willing to give some help on setting up an OSGeo Labs Project with SourceForge services if there was interest. Maybe we could put my e-mail with a note to that says as much on the wiki page. Just a thought. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Julien-Samuel Lacroix Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 2:47 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Supporting new projects Hi, I'll try to get something done. We could then start from there and add information to it. I hesitant to add a provide hosting part for now. I'm thinking of simply pointing to Sourceforge (or others) for now since we didn't get a consensus on that part. I'm also thinking that it will be easier to start small without providing anything, but a way to get advertised and grow the service later if it's a success. Best regards, Julien Cameron Shorter wrote: I'm +1 for OSGeo Labs. It would be a good holding place for projects waiting to go into incubation and for new projects to meet and collaborate with each other. The key elements of OSGeo Labs are: 1. Labs draws minimal overhead from the OSGeo community. Ie, provide hosting, but not mentoring. 2. There is an entrance criteria list for OSGeo Labs which ensures that the project has a goal of becoming an incubation OSGeo project and therefore should be Open Source, Geospatial, etc. 3. The decision for accepting a project into Labs should be delegated to a committee (which should be one person but could be more). Aim is to keep the management overhead low. 4. OSGeo Board reserves the right to remove projects from Labs if the project dies or is not following OSGeo values. I suggest that OSGeo Incubation Committee hold a meeting to vote on this. Do we have a volunteer to draft the first version of Entrance Criteria and Guidelines for OSGeo Labs? You should be able to draw a lot from the Incubation process. Julien-Samuel Lacroix wrote: Frank Warmerdam wrote: Julien, Could you launch an OSGeo Labs page in the wiki? If it shapes up well, we can look at linking it from somewhere reasonably prominent. Best regards, Thanks for the backup. My comment was more to get an idea of what people think about it and I think most people agree. I'll try to get something up along with guidelines to make sure we keep a little bit of control on what we advertise. Julien -- Julien-Samuel Lacroix Mapgears http://www.mapgears.com/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] California Chapter
Has there ever been any discussion of forming a California chapter of the OSGeo? I would think with all the geo guys in the Bay Area that this would have been done already. I would be interested in helping out with this, although I don't know if I want to run and administer things on my own. Are there any other interested OSGeo members in California? I was thinking we could form a chapter with one or two clear and simple goals. This would help our group to be focused and have something to actually work together on. I'm pretty flexible to what the goals might be, although I have a particular interest in a couple of areas. :] Any thoughts? Landon Blake (A.K.A. - The Sunburned Surveyor) Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] California Chapter - A Beginning
I want to thank Allan, Brad, and Chris for their responses to my post about starting a California Chapter. Allan had an excellent suggestion about representing the OSGeo at the CALGIS 2008 Conference in Modesto. I think this would be a great short term goal for our chapter. Modesto is right down Highway 99 from Stockton, so if this idea has support from other OSGeo members I can plan on representing the OSGeo there in some fashion. Would any other members of our fledgling chapter be able to help with that? I think it would be prudent to request a mailing list for almost-a-chapter from Tyler. I think we then need to accomplish the following tasks to get our chapter off of the ground: [1] Determine what needs to be done to meet the requirements for an OSGeo chapter. I imagine we might have to elect some chapter representatives and come up with some type of charter. [2] Decide on one or two well defined goals for 2008. Perhaps these will be software-related, perhaps they won't be. I'll send a subsequent post on this topic. I can do some research on the requirements at a booth for the CALGIS 2008 Conference in Modesto. Can Allan, Chris or Brad work on determining the requirements to become an OSGeo chapter? (Or, I can trade tasks with someone.) Landon -Original Message- From: Brad Douglas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 1:20 PM To: Landon Blake Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] California Chapter Has there ever been any discussion of forming a California chapter of the OSGeo? I would think with all the geo guys in the Bay Area that this would have been done already. I queried about it early in OSGeo history, but never received interest. I would be interested in helping out with this, although I don't know if I want to run and administer things on my own. Are there any other interested OSGeo members in California? I also had similar concerns. I was thinking we could form a chapter with one or two clear and simple goals. This would help our group to be focused and have something to actually work together on. I'm pretty flexible to what the goals might be, although I have a particular interest in a couple of areas. :] What did you have in mind? I'm a GRASS developer and reside in the South-east Bay (Fremont). It would be nice to work on something with someone who didn't drink the ESRI Koolaid for a change... -- Brad Douglas rez touchofmadness comKB8UYR/6 Address: 37.493,-121.924 / WGS84National Map Corps #TNMC-3785 Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] California Chapter - A Beginning
I've contacted the administrative staff for the conference about requirements and costs for a booth. I'll report to the list when I have learned more. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dan Putler Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 1:59 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] California Chapter - A Beginning Hi Landon, Sounds good. I registered for the conference since the price goes up $50 (from $125 to $175) tomorrow. Dan On Mon, 2007-15-10 at 10:32 -0700, Landon Blake wrote: Dan, The website for the conference is here: http://www.calgis.org/ I'll get a hold of the management to see what the costs/requirements are for setting up a booth. Landon -Original Message- From: Dan Putler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 10:23 AM To: Landon Blake Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] California Chapter - A Beginning Hi Landon, It turns out that for complicated dual career reasons, I'm in NorCal about half of the time and Vancouver the other half (I guess making me eligible to be both in the California and British Columbia Chapters). I'm interested in helping out if I can. The CALGIS event seems particularly interesting (I grew up in Modesto, and much of my family is still there). What are the details on this event, and how can I (potentially) help? Dan On Mon, 2007-15-10 at 09:37 -0700, Landon Blake wrote: I want to thank Allan, Brad, and Chris for their responses to my post about starting a California Chapter. Allan had an excellent suggestion about representing the OSGeo at the CALGIS 2008 Conference in Modesto. I think this would be a great short term goal for our chapter. Modesto is right down Highway 99 from Stockton, so if this idea has support from other OSGeo members I can plan on representing the OSGeo there in some fashion. Would any other members of our fledgling chapter be able to help with that? I think it would be prudent to request a mailing list for almost-a-chapter from Tyler. I think we then need to accomplish the following tasks to get our chapter off of the ground: [1] Determine what needs to be done to meet the requirements for an OSGeo chapter. I imagine we might have to elect some chapter representatives and come up with some type of charter. [2] Decide on one or two well defined goals for 2008. Perhaps these will be software-related, perhaps they won't be. I'll send a subsequent post on this topic. I can do some research on the requirements at a booth for the CALGIS 2008 Conference in Modesto. Can Allan, Chris or Brad work on determining the requirements to become an OSGeo chapter? (Or, I can trade tasks with someone.) Landon -Original Message- From: Brad Douglas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 1:20 PM To: Landon Blake Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] California Chapter Has there ever been any discussion of forming a California chapter of the OSGeo? I would think with all the geo guys in the Bay Area that this would have been done already. I queried about it early in OSGeo history, but never received interest. I would be interested in helping out with this, although I don't know if I want to run and administer things on my own. Are there any other interested OSGeo members in California? I also had similar concerns. I was thinking we could form a chapter with one or two clear and simple goals. This would help our group to be focused and have something to actually work together on. I'm pretty flexible to what the goals might be, although I have a particular interest in a couple of areas. :] What did you have in mind? I'm a GRASS developer and reside in the South-east Bay (Fremont). It would be nice to work on something with someone who didn't drink the ESRI Koolaid for a change... -- Dan Putler Sauder School of Business University of British Columbia ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] California Chapter - A Beginning
Thanks for that information Chris. It looks like we've got a good start on some of the requirements. I think the only thing we may be missing is critical mass. :] We had two or three people on the mailing list speak up, but I don't know if we have enough people to justify a chapter just yet. (I suppose this also depends on the level of interest in participation. I'm sure the time of other members is limited like mine.) Perhaps I will work on a mission and some objectives, and we will see what comes to pass... Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Whitney Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 7:21 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] California Chapter - A Beginning Unfortunately, I will not be able to go to CalGIS. The requirements for a new chapter are available at http:// www.osgeo.org/content/chapters/guidelines.html: -- In order to form a chapter, the following steps should be taken: OSGeo Chapter should self-organize (for instance in the OSGeo wiki, via OSGeo mailing list, etc), seeking to determine if a critical mass of interest exists to justify a chapter. OSGeo Chapter should prepare a mission and objectives indicating the scope of the planned chapter (geographic or linquistic extent for instance). OSGeo Chapter should propose an official representative to liaise with the OSGeo Board. If accepted by the board, the representative will be an officer of OSGeo. OSGeo Chapter should submit an official expression of interest to form a chapter to the OSGeo board, listing initial members, mission, representative, legal form (incorporated?) and other supporting information. The OSGeo board shall then consider passing a motion forming the chapter, and designating the liason officer. In considering the formation of new OSGeo chapters, the board will consider issues including: Does the mandate (geographically or linguistically) conflict with other existing chapters or chapters-in-formation? Does the chapter appear to have sufficient interest to justify official formation? Does the chapter appear to be open to broad membership, and representative of the target geographic or linguistic community? (eg. if a chapter had the objective to cover all Spanish speakers, it would be inappropriate if the only interest demonstrated was from one country) -- Chris Whitney On Oct 15, 2007, at 2:55 PM, Landon Blake wrote: I've contacted the administrative staff for the conference about requirements and costs for a booth. I'll report to the list when I have learned more. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dan Putler Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 1:59 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] California Chapter - A Beginning Hi Landon, Sounds good. I registered for the conference since the price goes up $50 (from $125 to $175) tomorrow. Dan On Mon, 2007-15-10 at 10:32 -0700, Landon Blake wrote: Dan, The website for the conference is here: http://www.calgis.org/ I'll get a hold of the management to see what the costs/requirements are for setting up a booth. Landon -Original Message- From: Dan Putler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 10:23 AM To: Landon Blake Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] California Chapter - A Beginning Hi Landon, It turns out that for complicated dual career reasons, I'm in NorCal about half of the time and Vancouver the other half (I guess making me eligible to be both in the California and British Columbia Chapters). I'm interested in helping out if I can. The CALGIS event seems particularly interesting (I grew up in Modesto, and much of my family is still there). What are the details on this event, and how can I (potentially) help? Dan On Mon, 2007-15-10 at 09:37 -0700, Landon Blake wrote: I want to thank Allan, Brad, and Chris for their responses to my post about starting a California Chapter. Allan had an excellent suggestion about representing the OSGeo at the CALGIS 2008 Conference in Modesto. I think this would be a great short term goal for our chapter. Modesto is right down Highway 99 from Stockton, so if this idea has support from other OSGeo members I can plan on representing the OSGeo there in some fashion. Would any other members of our fledgling chapter be able to help with that? I think it would be prudent to request a mailing list for almost-a-chapter from Tyler. I think we then need to accomplish the following tasks to get our chapter off of the ground: [1] Determine what needs to be done to meet the requirements for an OSGeo chapter. I imagine we might have to elect some chapter representatives and come up with some type of charter. [2] Decide on one or two well defined goals for 2008. Perhaps these will be software-related, perhaps they won't
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] California Chapter
Bob, It is great to hear from you. I think we are moving in the right direction! I'll try to get more on top of this next week. Landon From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Moskovitz, Bob Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 11:46 AM To: discuss@lists.osgeo.org Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] California Chapter Hello List, I'm interested in joining a California Chapter of OSGEO. With me being in Sacramento, it looks like the Central valley is well represented. Btw, I added my name as well as a couple of links on the wiki. Hope this gets off the ground! Bob Bob Moskovitz Seismic Hazard Zonation Project California Geological Survey http://www.conservation.ca.gov/cgs/shzp CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This message contains information from the State of California, California Geological Survey, which may be privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law, including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If the reader of this communication is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] California Chapter Mailing List
I put the web page for the mailing list for the California Chapter on the wiki page: http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/California Would it be possible to have Chris, Allan, Bob, and Alex subscribe to the list and post an introduction? Once I see that all four (4) people have subscribed, I can send California Chapter Related messages to that list instead of this one. I just don't want to loose anyone in the transfer to the new list. Landon P.S. - Perhaps in the introduction message you could tell us how you use GIS, how you use FOSS GIS, and what you might like to see a California Chapter accomplish. Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] local chapters
Dimitris, Check out this link: http://www.osgeo.org/content/chapters/guidelines.html That should help. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dimitris Kotzinos Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 9:35 AM To: discuss@lists.osgeo.org Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] local chapters Dear all, I briefly followed some discussions on how to create a local chapter of OSGEO. So my apologies for asking probably yet once more the same question but I would like to know: - how can one start a local chapter? - is there a link somewhere detailing the process? - is there a process (I mean legally) that should be followed? If somebody could answer that I would be grateful since we have a first open source GIS event in about a month time and I think it would be a great time to announce it. I am interested in creating a Greek Local Chapter. Additionally if there is any ready made material that presents the organization could somebody direct me to it so that I can try (but not necessarily succeed :)) to present the ongoing efforts. Best regards to all, and again my apologies for asking the same questions over again. Dimitris Kotzinos --- Dr. Dimitris Kotzinos Department of Geoinformatics and Topography TEI of Serres and Information systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) phone: +302810391635 fax: +30281039168 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] packaging FOSS GIS for Ubuntu in education
This would be a really good time for me to get updated Debian packages for JTS and OpenJUMP complete. I've been using Debian for a couple of years now, but I've never made a package for the operating system. I have done some reading on it. It is a little tricky for Java programs, especially one like OpenJUMP that depends on a set folder structure. But if we are putting together a CD of open source GIS packages for Ubuntu then I need to get my act together and work through the technical issues. At any rate, I'd be interested in helping prepare debs for OpenJUMP and JTS at a minimum, but I might be able to help with other FOSS GIS Java packages as well. I downloaded the old OpenJUMP package today. I'll see what I can learn from its structure this week. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cameron Shorter Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 7:22 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] packaging FOSS GIS for Ubuntu in education Frank, I wondered how long it would take to chime in. Frank and I have discussed this topic before and I promised him I'd write up my thoughts. This email thread has spurred me into action. My thoughts (most of which have been gleaned from my emails) are blogged at: http://techblog.terrapages.com/2007/10/path-to-ubiquitous-osgeo-software html Frank Warmerdam wrote: Folks, I'm not sure I have a lot to add to this thread, but it is a topic close to my heart, so I will chime in. I think Venka's idea of a standalone CD set for OSGeo software packages on Ubuntu is a great idea. I especially appreciate the fact that it builds on the existing great work of the DebianGIS team (ported to Ubuntu from the Debian source packages as I understand). I am sensitive to the issue that OSGeo can't very practically pick one Linux distribution and ignore all the rest. So I'm not sure that this effort will be the ultimate solution to OSGeo software for Linux, but it is practical and achievable in the short to medium term. Delivering a product CD based on Ubuntu builds on a popular distribution and is particularly sympatico with the conference given the south african origins of Ubuntu. It seems to me there are a few angles on which we can work this topic. 1) rough out a plan of the sort of stack of software we want to offer, potentially tied to the education material and use cases we are trying to support. 2) Review what is missing from this in DebianGIS and try to find volunteers to help the DebianGIS project package the appropriate software. There is a fair amount of expertise needed for Debian packaging (IMHO), but a few volunteers willing to invest 30-50 hours over the coming 6-7 months could make quite a difference. But we need to realize DebianGIS is a well established project with it's own culture and expectations and be prepared to work within this. It might be helpful for OSGeo to maintain a Debian system (as a VM or a whole blade) to provide a working and testing environment for folks who don't run Debian at home/work. 3) Find out what is needed to bring UbuntuGIS up to the appropriate packages. I don't know what people are involved in UbuntuGIS or how they operate. My understanding is that for major new Ubuntu releases the UbuntuGIS packages are built from the DebianGIS source packages. 4) Putting this together on CD/DVD is where the rubber hits the road. It would be great if Venka can lead this aspect, but I'm sure he would appreciate help. There is no reason that a first draft of this can't be prepared based on existing packages. One cool things is that Debian, and regular network based Ubuntu uses also all benefit from the upstream efforts. I love this sort of leverage! -- I'm not sure what OSGeo can do to facilitate this activity. We obviously can't direct volunteers, only encourage them. We don't have funding targeted for such an effort. However, if a modest amount of money could make a big difference I might be able to scare some up. I'm confident we can provide mailing lists, wiki space, server space, and bandwidth if these are helpful. I have cc:ed Frankie, the DebianGIS lead, in the hopes he could comment on how we can help support the DebianGIS effort. Best regards, -- Cameron Shorter Geospatial Systems Architect Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050 Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254 Think Globally, Fix Locally Commercial Support for Geospatial Open Source Software http://www.lisasoft.com/LISAsoft/SupportedProducts.html ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Board Proposal: Statement of OSGeo Legal Support
Cameron, I think this is an excellent idea, and a lawyer should definitely be consulted. I wonder if the legal staff at the Software Freedom Conservancy could assist. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cameron Shorter Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 3:56 AM To: OSGeo-Board Cc: OSGeo Discussions; Adrian Custer Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Board Proposal: Statement of OSGeo Legal Support OSGeo Board, (CC to OSGeo Discuss), During the founding of OSGeo, it was often noted that OSGeo projects would benefit from OSGeo legal protection. Now, as Geotools wrestles with graduation criteria and how to handle license assignment, the nature and level of legal protection offered by OSGeo is unclear. Also unclear is the level of legal review available (as tested by Geotools crafting of a Copywrite Assignment document). Consequently, geotools is having difficulty deciding whether it is wise to assign copywrite to OSGeo. I suspect a large part of the problem is that board members (like myself) are not lawyers and don't have a clear understanding of the options, the value of each of the options to OSGeo and the projects (how much protection is given), and the cost both in time and financially. Key questions to answer for each option are: * What level of support is given to contributors and license reviewers (individuals and companies) * What level of support is given to OSGeo users? * What level of support is given to projects? Will OSGeo fight a license infringer on behalf of a project? * What level of support is given to the OSGeo Foundation? *Proposal* That the board makes a clear statement on their website about nature and level of support offered by OSGeo to OSGeo projects and Individuals. This statement needs to be backed up with a budget item addressing financial implications related to the statement. Implementation: I suggest the steps to achieve the above would be: 1. Board approves budget to have a lawyer, or volunteer with legal review, to draw up a list of options and their financial implications. Adrian Custer's review provides an excellent basis for a lawyer to start from. http://docs.codehaus.org/display/GEOTOOLS/Geotools+Legal+Review 2. Board votes to select best option. 3. OSGeo financial sponsors are given opportunity to contribute to decision. 4. OSGeo budgets for decision 5. OSGeo records the legal stance publicly (on a webpage). -- Cameron Shorter Geospatial Systems Architect Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050 Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254 Think Globally, Fix Locally Commercial Support for Geospatial Open Source Software http://www.lisasoft.com/LISAsoft/SupportedProducts.html ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Board Proposal: Statement of OSGeo Legal Support
I have a contact at the Freedom Law Center. If no one here objects I could send an e-mail inquiring about legal services or advice for the OSGeo. Landon From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:27 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Board Proposal: Statement of OSGeo Legal Support IMO Good call Cameron. In this day and age it would pay to be proactive on these types of issues. It's been a while since I last looked at this. From memory, a number of large companies have pledged resources to help defend FOSS. I'm not sure where this is at currently. I think that its with the Linux Foundation - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Linux_Foundation (formed in 2007 from The Open Source Development Labs and the Free Standards Group). You may also want to look at the Software Freedom Law Centre founded by Eben Moglen. I understand that they provide pro-bono legal services to protect and advance Free and Open Source Software: http://www.softwarefreedom.org/technology/ Bruce Cameron Shorter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 31/10/07 09:30 AM Please respond to OSGeo Discussions discuss@lists.osgeo.org To OSGeo Discussions discuss@lists.osgeo.org cc Subject Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Board Proposal: Statement of OSGeo Legal Support Good processes + no money is an acceptable strategy so long as we have consciously made this decision and everyone is aware of the strategy. Allan Doyle wrote: On Oct 30, 2007, at 15:09 , Michael P. Gerlek wrote: Way back on that cold day in Chicago, I'm not sure anyone ever really thought about what it would mean when we said we'd offer legal protection. Does it imply/lead-to/entail some sort of indemnification? Ouch, that would be pricey... How does the Apache gang, et al, handle this? My recollection is that the Apache gang carefully keeps their coffers empty and makes sure the code all legally belongs to the Apache Foundation. Thus there's not enough of a pot of gold to win in a suit. However, I'm guessing that this strategy depends on a pretty well-defined process to ensure there are no loopholes. Allan -mpg -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Landon Blake Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 7:56 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Board Proposal: Statement of OSGeo Legal Support Cameron, I think this is an excellent idea, and a lawyer should definitely be consulted. I wonder if the legal staff at the Software Freedom Conservancy could assist. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cameron Shorter Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 3:56 AM To: OSGeo-Board Cc: OSGeo Discussions; Adrian Custer Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Board Proposal: Statement of OSGeo Legal Support OSGeo Board, (CC to OSGeo Discuss), During the founding of OSGeo, it was often noted that OSGeo projects would benefit from OSGeo legal protection. Now, as Geotools wrestles with graduation criteria and how to handle license assignment, the nature and level of legal protection offered by OSGeo is unclear. Also unclear is the level of legal review available (as tested by Geotools crafting of a Copywrite Assignment document). Consequently, geotools is having difficulty deciding whether it is wise to assign copywrite to OSGeo. I suspect a large part of the problem is that board members (like myself) are not lawyers and don't have a clear understanding of the options, the value of each of the options to OSGeo and the projects (how much protection is given), and the cost both in time and financially. Key questions to answer for each option are: * What level of support is given to contributors and license reviewers (individuals and companies) * What level of support is given to OSGeo users? * What level of support is given to projects? Will OSGeo fight a license infringer on behalf of a project? * What level of support is given to the OSGeo Foundation? *Proposal* That the board makes a clear statement on their website about nature and level of support offered by OSGeo to OSGeo projects and Individuals. This statement needs to be backed up with a budget item addressing financial implications related to the statement. Implementation: I suggest the steps to achieve the above would be: 1. Board approves budget to have a lawyer, or volunteer with legal review, to draw up a list of options and their financial implications. Adrian Custer's review provides an excellent basis for a lawyer to start from. http://docs.codehaus.org/display/GEOTOOLS/Geotools+Legal+Review 2. Board votes to select best option. 3. OSGeo financial sponsors are given opportunity to contribute to decision. 4. OSGeo budgets for decision 5. OSGeo
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Board Proposal: Statement of OSGeo Legal Support
Arnulf wrote: As long as we have more or less empty pockets and do not aim at leveraging money as a major facilitator against anybody and we continue to build our brand as being a straight group of spatial FOSS addicts there is little reason to get at us from the legal side anyway. What would you get? A bad reputation, little or no money at all and a large bunch of really angry people. Hooray, lets go sue some Foundations. This is good point. However, I don't think we should forget the possibility of legal action that doesn't seek money, but to simply shut down an organization. Lawsuits can be very scary things, and I think we can all bring to mind or FOSS project or two that was shut down because of the mere threat of a lawsuit. Sometimes it only takes a nasty letter from a lawyer to shut things down. Arnulf wrote: We should get a lawyer only when we need one as we cannot anticipate in which context we will need her. In my humble opinion it is always better to talk to a layer sooner rather than latter, especially if we can do it for free. But Arnulf is correct, we should have specific topics to discuss. Perhaps we need to create a well defined scope for the OSGeo and then talk to a lawyer about issues we need to be aware of based on that scope? Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Arnulf Christl Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 11:08 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Board Proposal: Statement of OSGeo Legal Support Cameron Shorter wrote: Good processes + no money is an acceptable strategy so long as we have consciously made this decision and everyone is aware of the strategy. Hello, keeping budgets low already is a corporate strategy of OSGeo as far as I am concerned. I am eager to extend this strategy to Legal Support. We are not here to fight legal wars but to further Free and Open Source Software. Whenever someone does want to pick on us we should have a solid ground and we have this with the incubation guidelines as they are. All that has to happen then will then happen, not now. As long as we have more or less empty pockets and do not aim at leveraging money as a major facilitator against anybody and we continue to build our brand as being a straight group of spatial FOSS addicts there is little reason to get at us from the legal side anyway. What would you get? A bad reputation, little or no money at all and a large bunch of really angry people. Hooray, lets go sue some Foundations. I disagree with Frank and find that Adrian Custer's proposed document for the GeoTools Project is a good starting point. As everything in this world it is not perfect and it will develop in future. Additionally I think we do not even need this document if it gives anybody a headache. My personal opinion is that a lot of the discussion is beside the point and we are oftentimes confusing copyright, ownership, originator's rights, branding and what really makes up a project - the community around it. We should get a lawyer only when we need one as we cannot anticipate in which context we will need her. Please never ever be IANAL again, I am tired of reading that phrase. Call me simplistic but I am still of the strong opinion that all we need to do is get some GeoTools developers go through the project files, change the Copyright to point at OSGeo and commit. My only concern was that the developers might feel they lose control and OSGeo could go berserk and sell the code Copyright to some big bad corporation. I think it simply cannot. And even if it did it wouldn't make any difference as anybody can always fork the last GNUed one and go for it. Can we get over it, please and let GeoTools graduate? Best regards, Arnulf. Allan Doyle wrote: On Oct 30, 2007, at 15:09 , Michael P. Gerlek wrote: Way back on that cold day in Chicago, I'm not sure anyone ever really thought about what it would mean when we said we'd offer legal protection. Does it imply/lead-to/entail some sort of indemnification? Ouch, that would be pricey... How does the Apache gang, et al, handle this? My recollection is that the Apache gang carefully keeps their coffers empty and makes sure the code all legally belongs to the Apache Foundation. Thus there's not enough of a pot of gold to win in a suit. However, I'm guessing that this strategy depends on a pretty well-defined process to ensure there are no loopholes. Allan -mpg -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Landon Blake Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 7:56 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Board Proposal: Statement of OSGeo Legal Support Cameron, I think this is an excellent idea, and a lawyer should definitely be consulted. I wonder if the legal staff at the Software Freedom Conservancy could assist. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Advocating Reasonable Public Access to PubliclyFunded Geospatial Data
Thanks Helena. I will subscribe to the OSGeo Geodata Mailing List and post some questions there. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Helena Mitasova Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 2:48 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Advocating Reasonable Public Access to PubliclyFunded Geospatial Data Landon, You can find a nice example of how agencies already provide free access to publicly funded geospatial data released in formats that are readable by OSGEO software stack at http://www.nconemap.org/ You need to work with your state and local governments because they are the ones who fund most of the mapping and who have the data (and/or elect state legislators who make it a law to provide the publicly funded data for free). I would guess that NC is not the only state in US that makes its data available for free, so there are probably more examples. Maybe those from other states where this works could share their experience. Good place to meet people from federal, state and local governments who deal with geospatial data is the state GIS conference (if I remember correctly you planned to attend one in your state), see the latest in NC here: http://www.cgia.state.nc.us/Default.aspx?alias=www.cgia.state.nc.us/ ncgis2007 NCGIS regularly includes session on open source software as well as data accessibility (this year it was Low cost / High value web mapping which was packed, for data it was Data sharing, access and distribution and many others) so people from agencies are kept up to date on open source software developments thanks to several great open source software and free data advocates that we have here, Helena Helena Mitasova Dept. of Marine, Earth and Atm. Sciences 1125 Jordan Hall, NCSU Box 8208, Raleigh NC 27695 http://skagit.meas.ncsu.edu/~helena/ On Nov 12, 2007, at 4:25 PM, Landon Blake wrote: Is there any effort at the OSGeo to advocate for reasonable access to publicly funded geospatial data? By reasonable I mean: [1] With an affordable price reflecting the actual cost to reproduce the data. [2] Released in a format that doesn't require expensive proprietary software. For example, the United States Forest Service has some extensive geospatial data sets available to the public, but they release it in ESRI Geodatabase Format. (They didn't respond to my requests for the data in Shapefile Format.) Another example is one of my local counties, which sells data in ESRI Shapefile format for $200 a layer under a very strict license agreement. I was wondering if there was any type of committee or other organized effort at the OSGeo that provided education and advocacy for reasonable access to publicly funded data. It seems like a natural fit for the organization, and one great way to enable everyday use of open source GIS programs. (At a minimum, it seems like we could keep a catalog of public agencies and there policy for the release of geospatial data.) Landon Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] idea for an OSGeo project -- a new, open data format
Puneet, You wrote: Is this too crazy? I don't think this idea is crazy at all. In fact, I think it is a very good idea. I do have a couple of comments, which you can read below: You wrote: What if we came up with a new and improved data format -- call it Open Shapefile (extension .osh)... I think we would have to completely avoid the term Shapefile as it is probably an ESRI trademark. You wrote: that would be completely Free, single-file based (instead of the multiple .shp, .dbf, .shx, etc... Is there a problem with a multiple file format? I have tinkered with some different binary file formats, and it seems that separating some information in a spatial data set (like indexes, for example) makes it easier to create programs that parse and write the format. You wrote: ...and based on SQLite, giving the .osh format complete relational data handling capabilities. I would prefer tightly integrating any software package, even if it was FOSS, into a new data format. SQLite is written in the C programming language, as an example, and that doesn't do me a lot of good as a Java programmer. Tightly integrating a Java library or program wouldn't do much good for a programmer using C. That is the real beauty of an open file format: If it is designed properly your programming language doesn't matter! I did a little brainstorming for a binary file format that could replace Shapefiles. Its called BOFF, or Binary Open Feature Format. I talked over small bits of the design for BOFF with Frank Wammerdam, who expressed some small interest in it at the time. Perhaps it would offer some ideas? I'd be very interesting in offering Java support for a shapefile replacement endorsed by the OSGeo. The Sunburned Surveyor -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of P Kishor Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 6:53 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] idea for an OSGeo project -- a new, open data format So, I am thinking, Shapefile is the de facto data standard for GIS data. That it is open (albeit not Free) along with the deep and wide presence of ESRI's products from the beginning of the epoch, it has been widely adopted. Existence of shapelib, various language bindings, and ready use by products such as MapServer has continued to cement Shapefile as the format to use. All this is in spite of Shapefile's inherent drawbacks, particularly in the area of attribute data management. What if we came up with a new and improved data format -- call it Open Shapefile (extension .osh) -- that would be completely Free, single-file based (instead of the multiple .shp, .dbf, .shx, etc.), and based on SQLite, giving the .osh format complete relational data handling capabilities. We would require a new version of Shapelib, improved language bindings, make it the default and preferred format for MapServer, and provide seamless and painless import of regular shp data into .osh for native rendering. Its adoption would be quick in the open source community. The non-opensource community would either not give a rat's behind for it, but it wouldn't affect them... they would still work with their preferred .shp until they learned better. By having a completely open and Free single-file based, built on SQLite, fully relational dbms capable spatial data format, it would be positioned for continued improvement and development. Is this too crazy? -- Puneet Kishor ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: idea for an OSGeo project -- a new, open data format
Puneet, You wrote: Should be easy to transition to. By building the new format on the structure of the Shapefile format, and *in fact*, calling it open shapefiles or some such thing, we indicate from its name that the transition is not that revolutionary but is evolutionary. This, hopefully, will bring some name-familiarity, and make the transition less scary. I really think you are going to run into problems using the Shapefile as part of the trademark or name for any product not sold by ESRI. I strongly recommend against this move. Let people adopt the implementation of your idea for its merits, not for name recognition that comes from another product line. You wrote: ANSI standard C is still that magic common denominator that compiles and works predictably on most number of systems. I have a lot against Java, but those who love Java should definitely work on tools for accessing and working with this new format as it would only make the format more widely used and adopted. It sounds to me like you are really describing a tool. File formats are written in a binary encoding or text, not in a programming language. If you are designing a tool you can choose the programming language of your choice, but be aware that this will limit the developers that adopt the tool. This will be the case no matter what language you choose to use, whether it is C, Java, or something else. If, in contrast, you are creating a file format, then programming languages shouldn't really matter. Binary and text data can be accessed by almost all programming languages. I think you need to decide if you want a tool or a data format. It sounds like you are shooting more for a spatial database written in the C programming language that uses some form of the ESRI Shapefile as its underlying data storage mechanism. To me that is a tool or piece of software, not a format. But maybe I don't completely understand your goal. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of P Kishor Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 8:35 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: idea for an OSGeo project -- a new,open data format Thanks everyone, for responding. Here is my groundwork. The new format -- - Should be fast. SQLite is plenty fast, and anything that simply extends the Shapefile format to inject relational capabilities should be pretty fast. It should definitely be faster than a geodatabase format (such as PostGIS/ArcSDE) and perhaps even faster than Shapefiles especially while accessing attribute data. DBF is sequential, and searching for textual information is particularly expensive. SQLite has been tuned to excellence. I have been working with it for a few years now, and it really is an amazing product, development community, support, and capabilities. That it is in public domain makes for a transfat-free icing on the cake. - Should be unencumbered by licenses and copyrights. Ideally, the new format could also be put back into public domain. We want to remove all encumbrances to encourage rapid and wide adoption. - Should be a single file. Well, some like multiple files and some like single files. We can achieve both objectives by using a tar-gzipped packaging such as Apple tends to use for much of its stuff (for example, its Pages wordprocessor uses a tgzipped xml file along with other resources for icons and pictures and stuff). Or, if speed is going to be affected because of gzipping and gunzipping, just a package format (I have no idea if this is a Unix thing or a Mac OS thing -- we, in the Mac world, call them packages... they appear like files in the Finder, and like directories in the shell). - Should be easy to transition to. By building the new format on the structure of the Shapefile format, and *in fact*, calling it open shapefiles or some such thing, we indicate from its name that the transition is not that revolutionary but is evolutionary. This, hopefully, will bring some name-familiarity, and make the transition less scary. - Frank mentions SQLite's lack of datatypes as an issue -- I guess that is a matter of preference. I personally quite like that freedom as it gives me, the application developer, complete control over what goes where. SQLite actually does have now a few datatypes that it respects, but doesn't complain about. Since all users will be accessing the data via an application, as long as the application is well defined, it should be fine. - SQLite excels at one thing that it has been entrusted to do -- retrieve data that it has been entrusted with at extremely fast speeds, and maintain ACID data integrity in case of a programmatic catastrophe. The transactions themselves are worth their price of admission, which, happily, happens to be zero. - Langdon mentions Java support -- well, yes, use/work on SQLite JDBC. I have been using it for a few days now and find it to be a pretty competent conduit. Extend it, spatialize it. ANSI standard C is
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: idea for an OSGeo project -- a new, open data format
Puneet wrote: Shall we focus on the technical limitations of Shapefiles in order to keep moving forward? I was going to add a couple of limitations in addition to the limitations of attribute data brought on by use of a DBF file as a storage container: [1] No way to store simple topology. [2] No way to store features with different schema and/or different geometry representations in the same file. [3] No way to store labeling or annotation. I'm not sure if you would want to do all of this with a new file format, but I know its limitations of the Shapefile format that I have run into in the past. Landon P.S. - This is probably a crazy idea, but has anyone ever considered talking to ESRI about cooperating on an update Shapefile spec? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of P Kishor Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 9:06 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: idea for an OSGeo project -- a new,open data format On 11/14/07, David William Bitner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I never (I think I never did) argued that Shapefile is not open. I argued that it is not Free. I could be wrong. Here's the open published specification: http://www.esri.com/library/whitepapers/pdfs/shapefile.pdf yes, I am aware of this, and have used it on and off over the past decade. Do what you will with it. I don't know in this case what you imply by Free. Might ESRI make changes in the future that they don't publish? Maybe, but at this version of shapefiles -- that are pervasive throughout the industry, I would doubt they would forgo backwards compatibility and this version of the specification is out there and free and open as far as I can tell. ok, so there may or may not be an issue. I did bring it up, and so I risk the discussion focusing on this aspect too much. Let's forget about this aspect for now. Shall we focus on the technical limitations of Shapefiles in order to keep moving forward? Many thanks, Puneet. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] idea for an OSGeo project -- a new, open dataformat
FYI, I tried to follow the link for information on BXML on the cubewerx site, but I got a page missing error at the OGC. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Luis W. Sevilla Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 11:08 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] idea for an OSGeo project -- a new, open dataformat Hi, +1 for GML with BXML encoding as next open standard. GML 3.* with his ability to be 'profiled' seems to be on the base of almost all and every OGC norm being proposed on last 2-3 years. As Rob Atkinson said to me, BXML may be an encoding for GML, in a way no standard needs to be modifyed to support this encoding, only implementors must add support to it. At gvSIG we're currently working both on a low level library for reading and writing GML 3.* + other GML alike formats, disacopled of our object model, and a java port of this cubewerx BXML encoder/decoder. We hope to release early results by the end of 1st term next year. Maybe the way of push the standard (both OGC and ISO) it's by simply implement parsers and writers, and use it a widely as possible. greetings Luis Paul Spencer wrote: Cubewerx created a binary XML implementation that is open source. They claim substantial benefits, so perhaps GML plus a binary XML library could be an alternative? http://www.cubewerx.com/web/guest/bxml Cheers Paul On 15-Nov-07, at 5:21 PM, Lucena, Ivan wrote: Sampson, I am not a GML guru and I don't know if a binary version exists already, but I would imagine that HDF5 would be a excellent choice by its own hierarchical nature. I mean, we can use GML as a schema to store the data in binary format in the HDF5 format. Best regards, Ivan Sampson, David wrote: Alright, Here are some other thoughts. First off what about a open office (open base) type approach... This mimmics the ESRI MSAccess approach and seams to work well for non server environments. Also open office is a good environment for some basic applications. Next, what ever happened to the adoption of GML... Was GML not supposed to be the NEXT interchange fomrat? Perhaps this is a good discussion to include the GML gurus in. The whole discussion of going with a binary GML format makes sense and GML is already used for many web mapping (feature) services. It sounds like a duplication of GML to me... Unless someone can offer a direct compare and contrast between the concept here and the GML/Binary GML concept. In either case being able to convert to and from GML would be a necesity for wide adoption IMHO. Another thought is to encourage some of the proprietary formats to open up. What would it take to get ESRI on board to open up the format (open as in free speech). What about other non-open standards? Once it's open then we can bring the SHP format to modern day useage. Surely much of the format could be salvaged. Besides, if you want wide adoption of an open format then why not go for those players who hold greatest market share. Some thoughts. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of P Kishor Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 09:53 To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] idea for an OSGeo project -- a new, open data format So, I am thinking, Shapefile is the de facto data standard for GIS data. That it is open (albeit not Free) along with the deep and wide presence of ESRI's products from the beginning of the epoch, it has been widely adopted. Existence of shapelib, various language bindings, and ready use by products such as MapServer has continued to cement Shapefile as the format to use. All this is in spite of Shapefile's inherent drawbacks, particularly in the area of attribute data management. What if we came up with a new and improved data format -- call it Open Shapefile (extension .osh) -- that would be completely Free, single-file based (instead of the multiple .shp, .dbf, .shx, etc.), and based on SQLite, giving the .osh format complete relational data handling capabilities. We would require a new version of Shapelib, improved language bindings, make it the default and preferred format for MapServer, and provide seamless and painless import of regular .shp data into .osh for native rendering. Its adoption would be quick in the open source community. The non-opensource community would either not give a rat's behind for it, but it wouldn't affect them... they would still work with their preferred .shp until they learned better. By having a completely open and Free single-file based, built on SQLite, fully relational dbms capable spatial data format, it would be positioned for continued improvement and development. Is this too crazy? -- Puneet Kishor ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
[OSGeo-Discuss] GIS Data Models
Does anyone know if there has been work on GIS Data Models besides any organization other than ESRI? (http://www.esri.com/software/arcgis/geodatabase/about/data-models.html) I have both books on GIS Data Models by ESRI Press, which I thoroughly enjoy: Designing Geodatabases: Case Studies In Data Modeling (http://books.google.com/books?id=3g62f8RkUXQCpg=PR9dq=gis+data+model; sig=TuITNd5rZA5_VXwTanOCPEFp0dY) Modeling Our World: The ESRI Guide To Geodatabase Design (http://books.google.com/books?id=qAe-ScoyTqICpg=PP1dq=modeling+our+wo rldsig=XL8szKVztUmUS2PJma-bN_bGOY4) However, this material is definitely written for a user of ESRI software. It is possible to extract basic principles from the material ESRI produces on data models, although this can be difficult given the amount of software specific content. Has there been any effort by the open source community to develop GIS Data Models? (By a GIS Data Model I mean a template or set of guidelines for one or more thematic layers and the features they contain as these layers apply to a particular application. For example: Agriculture) I am starting work on a data model for Survey Control as part of my efforts at the SurveyOS Project and at my day job. As part of this work I would like to develop some tutorials and templates for data model design that could be used by others in the FOSS GIS arena. These data model patterns will focus on vendor-neutral GIS design. I hope to work on other data models as the years pass, and most of these will be survey related. I am curious if there has been work like this done before. For example, I'll need to define some abstract data types for Feature attributes that could be mapped to various software platforms and/or programming languages. Any thoughts? SLB Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] GIS Data Models
Thanks for the information Evan. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lucena, Ivan Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 3:47 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] GIS Data Models Landon, There it goes: Landon Blake wrote: Does anyone know if there has been work on GIS Data Models besides any organization other than ESRI? (http://www.esri.com/software/arcgis/geodatabase/about/data-models.html) There it goes: SPRING: Integrating Remote Sensing and GIS with Object-Oriented Data Modelling. G.Câmara, R.Souza, U.Freitas, J.Garrido, F. Ii. *Computers and Graphics*, vol.15(6):13-22, 1996. Note: Ivan Lucena on page 15 is me. However, this material is definitely written for a user of ESRI software. It is possible to extract basic principles from the material ESRI produces on data models, although this can be difficult given the amount of software specific content. Sure. Has there been any effort by the open source community to develop GIS Data Models? (By a GIS Data Model I mean a template or set of guidelines for one or more thematic layers and the features they contain as these layers apply to a particular application. For example: Agriculture) Just as an example, using that software above mentioned I once developed a Data Model for research in Precision Agriculture. Basically what you do is given a source of datasets in the real word, like Geological Map or Altimetry you take the class that best represent it, like Thematic or Numeric and you give it a name and symbology appropriated for your application domain. You do that previous to the data acquisition and you can use the schema you used in several different projects. Note: The physical data storage is trick tough, by the concept of multi-representation you can have in a database one single Thematic layer represented by vector and/or raster. For Numeric layers is even tricker, it could have Vector (contour map, triangular grid, 3D points) or Raster (regular grid) for the same Layer. How does it sounds? I never rear of any other software that does that. Have you? I am starting work on a data model for Survey Control as part of my efforts at the SurveyOS Project and at my day job. As part of this work I would like to develop some tutorials and templates for data model design that could be used by others in the FOSS GIS arena. These data model patterns will focus on vendor-neutral GIS design. I hope to work on other data models as the years pass, and most of these will be survey related. You can play if that software to get some ideas but it is not exactly the neutral solution you want: http://www.dpi.inpe.br/spring/english/index.html I am curious if there has been work like this done before. For example, I'll need to define some abstract data types for Feature attributes that could be mapped to various software platforms and/or programming languages. Again, Not exactly. It answers you first question but not the second one. Any thoughts? It is certainly a cool topic. :) Ivan SLB *Warning: *Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] GIS Data Models
Orest, That was a great link. Thank you very much. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Orest Halustchak Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 8:29 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] GIS Data Models Hi, Is anyone familiar with the SDSFIE data models for facilities, infrastructure, and environment (http://www.sdsfie.org/)? They publish models for many domains such as communications, transportation, land use, etc. There is a web browser of their model data. From the home page, select Web Tools - Web Browser or UML Model Viewer. Thanks, Orest. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Landon Blake Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 11:03 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] GIS Data Models Ian, I'm not actually talking about data structures. When I say data model I'm really talking about a model or template for GIS data in a particular industry or application. Thanks for the information. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ian Turton Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 11:28 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] GIS Data Models On Nov 27, 2007 12:32 PM, Landon Blake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone know if there has been work on GIS Data Models besides any organization other than ESRI? (http://www.esri.com/software/arcgis/geodatabase/about/data-models.html) Martin Davies (of JTS fame) recently had a blog post on this at http://lin-ear-th-inking.blogspot.com/2007/11/bible-of-spatial-indexing. html. I've got The Design and Analysis of Spatial Data Structures out of the library at work and am slowly working my way through it. I've already learned a bunch of stuff about point quadtrees and I'm only up to chapter two, so the the other two books Martin mentions may well also be worth checking out. Ian ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] Time In GIS
This is being sent to the geowanking and OSGEO discuss list. I apologize in advance if you catch it in your inbox twice, but I didn't want to miss any potential resources. I'm working on a GIS Data Model in which I am trying to model some temporal data. I've done a little research online, but most of the info is pretty ESRI specific. Although I'm somewhat curious about the use of temporal data in a GIS in general, I'm really interested in a specific approach to the problem. Does anyone know if there is material available that discusses using events to model temporal data? (Like the events we use in GUI programming.) I'd really like to read some software-neutral principles on how events can be used to model time in GIS if this is available. Or, if you have tackled this challenge personally, I'd love to learn more about your personal experience and solutions. Thanks, Landon (A.K.A. - The Sunburned Surveyor) P.S. - I posted about the particular circumstances that led to my interest in this topic and some existing material I found online at my OpenJUMP blog: http://openjump.blogspot.com/ Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Time In GIS
Bob, That would be great. I'd really like to take a look at the thesis. You can send it to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brundage, Robert G Mr CIV USA IMCOM Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 1:21 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Time In GIS Landon; I did my master thesis on temporal GIS. It included a temporal GIS implementation of the ESRI personal geodatabase (sorry). But the concepts and methodology demonstrated in the thesis should be universal. I can email it to you if you wish. Bob Brundage GIS Coordinator Public Works (DPW) Bldg 865 Bastogne Ave 16th St For Campbell, KY 42223 PH: 270-798-9571 FAX: 270-798-2232 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Landon Blake Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 2:48 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; OSGeo Discussions Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Time In GIS This is being sent to the geowanking and OSGEO discuss list. I apologize in advance if you catch it in your inbox twice, but I didn't want to miss any potential resources. I'm working on a GIS Data Model in which I am trying to model some temporal data. I've done a little research online, but most of the info is pretty ESRI specific. Although I'm somewhat curious about the use of temporal data in a GIS in general, I'm really interested in a specific approach to the problem. Does anyone know if there is material available that discusses using events to model temporal data? (Like the events we use in GUI programming.) I'd really like to read some software-neutral principles on how events can be used to model time in GIS if this is available. Or, if you have tackled this challenge personally, I'd love to learn more about your personal experience and solutions. Thanks, Landon (A.K.A. - The Sunburned Surveyor) P.S. - I posted about the particular circumstances that led to my interest in this topic and some existing material I found online at my OpenJUMP blog: http://openjump.blogspot.com/ Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] Time In GIS - Thanks
I got all kinds of responses to my question about time in GIS, which I appreciate. Give me a couple of days and I will try to get a summary of the responses posted online. Landon (A.K.A. - The Sunburned Surveyor) Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo Presence On Wikipedia
Thanks Markus. I should have included that link in my message. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Markus Neteler Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 3:26 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo Presence On Wikipedia On Dec 20, 2007 12:19 AM, Landon Blake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... and there was some other discussion about a multi-language GIS dictionary. Here the link to my proposal: http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/OSGeo_Multilanguage_Dictionary Markus ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo Presence On Wikipedia
Perhaps I have muddied the waters with my clumsy efforts. :] The idea of a dictionary for GIS terms is great, and is something that will be useful for work on the Free GIS Book. I have no problem working on dictionary entries at Wiktionary or somewhere else. For the time being I'll add my definitions to the Starter Dictionary page I created on the OSGeo Wiki. When the group decides where we want our geodefinitions permanently, I'll work on moving the content in the starter dictionary over. My idea about the Wikipedia entries was not meant to replace the dictionary, but was a separate beast entirely. I don't want the two ideas to be confused. I think there would be content appropriate for an article on something like Wikinfo that wouldn't be appropriate for a dictionary. I hope I haven't made a mess of things. I was just throwing some ideas out there. I'll keep adding entries to the Starter Dictionary page of the OSGeo Wiki as I work on my Metadata chapter and articles for the OSGeo Journal. I will support moving to whatever dictionary platform best fits the OSGeo in the future. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Markus Neteler Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 7:37 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo Presence On Wikipedia On Dec 20, 2007 4:14 PM, Alexandre Leroux [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lester Caine wrote: And more critically http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_i s_not_a_dictionary PREVENTS using it as a repository of terms :( As the link you just provided indicates, Wiktionary is the Wikipedia equivalent for a dictionary. I admit I haven't read this whole thread, but it would make sense to me to use Wiktionary as a repository of geo-definitions. Right, see http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/OSGeo_Multilanguage_Dictionary Markus ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo Presence On Wikipedia
Thanks Lester. I'll move forward with my original plan for maintenance and creation of Wikipedia entries at Wikinfo instead. Others can join my personal efforts if they are interested. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lester Caine Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 9:53 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo Presence On Wikipedia Landon Blake wrote: This is really good feedback, and has helped me reevaluate my original idea. What about using Wikinfo instead? It seems that they have some more reasonable and flexible policies on content and editing. http://www.internet-encyclopedia.org/index.php/Main_Page In fact, I think there article on GIS is better that the one on Wikipedia: http://www.internet-encyclopedia.org/index.php/Geographic_information_sy stem I've modified my page on the OSGeo to reflect this possible change: http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Wikipedia_Entry_Maintenance A quick scan of Wikinfo would seem to indicate that it intends filling the gaps that wikipedia has forcefully created. But I think it needs a lot more input yet - there are lots of red links in the sections I went through :) Thanks for the link - it looks like it will solve my other problems as well! -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk MEDW - http://home.lsces.co.uk/ModelEngineersDigitalWorkshop/ Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] Geospatial Dataset Life Cycle
OSGeo Members and Geowankers, Has anyone done any work/research on the typical lifecycle of geospatial datasets? I was working on my Metadata chapter for the Free GIS Book this morning and I found myself trying to explain how metadata is related to this life cycle. (The basic idea of this section in the chapter is that metadata should be updated at each point in the life cycle.)That's when I realized I needed a better idea of what this life cycle is. Here is what I've come up with: Geospatial data is created. Geospatial data is cataloged. Geospatial data is maintained. Geospatial data is consumed. Geospatial data is archived or decommissioned. I know this isn't as simple as I would like it to be. For example, data could be consumed before it is maintained or cataloged. Maybe what I need is something like a loop instead of a timeline, or even a flow chart of some type. At any rate, if there has been any work on understanding the typical life cycle of a geospatial data set I'd like to read it. Or if you have personal thoughts on how it can be represented please share them. Landon (A.K.A. - The Sunburned Surveyor) Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] Summary of Time In GIS
I've put up a page at the OSGeo Wiki summarizing some of the responses I got to my question about time in GIS as promised. http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Time_In_GIS I would like to personally thank all of the responders. (If I forgot to add your name to the credits section on the page, please let me know. Do the same thing if I misspelled your name.) :] Please also let me know if you have other links or information that should be added to the page. The information provided was very helpful, and gave me a lot to think about. I'm sure my future efforts at construction GIS data models will benefit from this discussion. Landon (A.K.A. - The Sunburned Surveyor) Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] Time In GIS - Requested Updates Made
I made updates and/or corrections to the wiki page for Time In GIS requested by Brent Fraser and Grant Pezeshki. Brent provided a simple example of using time in GIS for cadastral parcels. I need to chew on this some more and then I may post it to the page. Thanks Brent and Grant. Landon Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Time In GIS - Requested Updates Made
Luis, I added a section called OGC Stuff that mentions this OGC paper and includes a link to the page where it can be downloaded. Thanks for the information. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Luis W. Sevilla Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 10:13 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Time In GIS - Requested Updates Made Hi Landon, maybe you'll find usefull also some of the OGC works. For instanc the paper 06-022r1 Temporal Standard Recomendations, greetings Luis Landon Blake wrote: I made updates and/or corrections to the wiki page for Time In GIS requested by Brent Fraser and Grant Pezeshki. Brent provided a simple example of using time in GIS for cadastral parcels. I need to chew on this some more and then I may post it to the page. Thanks Brent and Grant. Landon *Warning: *Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. --- - ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Propietary vs. FOSS4GIS round-table in Spain
Thanks for the insight on the meeting Miguel and Puneet. It was interesting to hear what the other side of the aisle thinks of us. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of P Kishor Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 7:23 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Propietary vs. FOSS4GIS round-table in Spain On 12/26/07, Miguel Montesinos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi to everybody, A round-table with subject free software, propietary software and GIS was held at Madrid, Spain, last december, the 18th of 2007, with people talking from the propietary side (top managers from ESRI and Intergraph in Spain), people from FOSSGIS side (gvSIG and regional Spanish governments) as well as academics and National Public Administration, under the chair of IGN (Spanish National Geographic Institute). A good thing about this event it's that it's been published in YouTube [1] (with written acceptance by talkers). It's a pitty that it's only in Spanish, maybe from the OSGeo Spanish Chapter we could translate something. Anyway I'll translate some funny things that have been said there. - Alfonso Rubio (Top Manager at ESRI Spain): [2] from an intellectual point of view, I wonder that if free software is a software with freedom to be modified at any time, that is just the opposite of guaranteeing that we are able to work with standards, because any user, or even any implementation, can modify it - A. Rubio (ESRI) in a 2nd talk: [3] it seems that standard support is less guaranteed with free software from an intellectual point of view and finally: a standard -in the end- is a boring thing - Rubén Andreani (Top Manager at Intergraph Spain): [4] How much does it cost to make a software and to maintain it? There's a gossip which says that a version of a GIS software costs around 100-200 million $ ... so, obviously the software cannot be free (for *gratis*) because money has to come from anywhere. . In many ways I agree with both of them above. If their intent was to denigrate Free Software then they failed, because I see the above as the strength of FOSS. FOSS is indeed freedom to be modified at any time, but that doesn't obviate working with standards. Standards and software are related but in a different way. Someone once wrote on this list that a standard is an interface specification, which I found to be a very useful description. Software can create a specification, but that becomes a standard only either through wide-spread penetration and usage (MS-Word, Shapefile format) or via a consensual agreement of peers (W3, OGC). And, a standard is always open to change. If it is not malleable then it indeed is fossilized in time. As new functionalities are dreamed up, standards are modified to accommodate them. FOSS doesn't guarantee or break standards anymore than proprietary software does (afaik, Apache has never broken the HTML standard, or MapServer has never broken the Shapefile standard). Re. the cost of FOSS, I would contend that if we were to monetize an entire FOSS community's effort to create and support its FOSS (for example, MapServer community's effort to create and support MapServer -- this would include everyone -- from its developers to maintainers to bug fixers to advocates to those who help others on the lists to even those who just lurk and learn from others), yes, it would probably amount to a very large sum of money. It is irrelevant whether it would be US$100-200, because FOSS community has never been interested in monetizing it that way. Besides being incredibly difficult because of its loosey-goosey nature, if it could, it wouldn't be FOSS -- it would be something else. FOSS is much more than the money of it. So, I agree with both those folks. If there intent was to eulogize FOSS, they succeeded, and if their intent was to denigrate it, they failed. Puneet. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: [postgis-users] A bit off topic, but FOSS GIS clients...
Well put Paul. A little harsh...but well put. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Ramsey Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 9:41 AM To: PostGIS Users Discussion Cc: OSGeo Discussions Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: [postgis-users] A bit off topic,but FOSS GIS clients... I realize it ain't easy. But could consolidation (future effort) make it easier? The only thing that can be consolidated is developer effort, and even where there are no programming language barriers (such as in the Java world) there are lots of countervailing reasons that make mergers impractical. Everyone should drop their projects and work on uDig. But all the gvSIG developers are supported by funding from Spanish government that requires all the work be GPL; and they also prefer a pure Java implementation to the SWT/Eclipse implementation that uDig uses. And the OpenJUMP people have an existing rich set of editing tools that are not easily portable to the uDig application model. Are they going to throw away all their existing functionality to move to another platform? Why? OpenJUMP works fine for them. You are thinking the developers are working for you, the user, but they aren't. They are working for themselves and their employers, and they have perfectly good reasons to keep working on what they want to work on. You, the freeloading user, are incidental to the process. We, the developers and employers, are well aware of the strategic implications of choosing to join, or not join, a particular community, probably to a far finer degree than you, and don't worry -- we are looking after our interests. What's Refractions' model? Paul? Presumably Refractions is a for-profit entity and not an ESRI Business Partner. Refractions seems to be quite successful with PostGIS. PostGIS seems to be the de facto FOSS spatial database extension, with PostgreSQL being its host. Longer lead time, I know. Actually we have been an ESRI business partner in the past, and would not mind being so again. We do a large percentage of our revenue on projects that use ESRI, Oracle and other proprietary tools. PostGIS provides us with no direct revenue at all, nor does uDig. http://geotips.blogspot.com/2005/10/open-source-company-oxymoron.html Does Refractions not implement the FOSS GIS products they help develop for pay? Do they not, like Google (although Google has endless capital), allow their programmers to work, at least part-time, on FOSS GIS products during work hours? To a degree, but relative to our overall revenue flow, not really. The pay-back on dollars spent on OSS development is much harder to put metrics around than the payback on things like direct sales effort, or proprietary software development. Also, wasn't there a FOSS4G presentation about consulting as a way to further FOSS GIS development and make a living at it as well? Bit of a myth, as far as I can tell. This open source technology wedge is still so small that the business opportunities remain relatively tiny, particularly in North America, where the technology base is so homogenous and the mental lock-in to a vendor-led mentality so strong. Is there a QGIS foundation? If not, could there be? Should there be? No, there's an OSGeo foundation, of which QGIS is a member, that's good enough. Once it's a 5013c, US donors will even be able to get tax receipts for their donations to QGIS development, and write off the donations. P ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: FOSS4GIS business models
Paul wrote: The trouble with the geospatial marketplace is that it is relatively small, so the small proportion an open source company can monetize is smaller still. I wonder how this will change as the ability to obtain spatial information improves and becomes more affordable? A few decades ago you needed 3 or 4 men, expensive optical equipment, and a trained eye to produce maps. Now all you need is a teenager, a motorcycle, and a GPS receiver. I think you will find more opportunities for companies with a business model built around FOSS as this trend plays out. Here are a couple of examples from my own personal experience: On entry barrier to GIS is initial data production costs. I have been impressed at the difference the availability of USDA Aerial Photography has made in the last few years. (The USDA provides 1 meter color orthophotgraphy to most counties in California and other parts of the United States on a yearly basis. This data can be accessed for free or next-to-nothing.) This has allowed us to do things in my own office that we couldn't have considered before. The cost of that type of imagery on that large of a scale was just too prohibitive. As geospatial data becomes cheaper, more up-to-date, and more precise, I believe you will see the entry-level cost of GIS implementation at different organizations drop. This is especially true of remotely sensed data. Still, it applies to vector data as well. You can't find very many California counties that don't have vector data available, although licensing is still an issue in some places. I believe there are a lot of markets for GIS that haven't been cracked open yet. Land surveying is one of these. ESRI has thrown some darts in this direction, but if you ask your typical land surveyor what GIS is you would probably get some off-the-wall answers. I doubt even 5% would understand how they could use GIS technology to improve the efficiency of there own operations. Another example is an experience I had recently when I volunteered for a local Ranger District of the US Forest Service. I assumed the Ranger District would have a GIS person on staff, or at least have some GIS software and have people that could use it. This was not the case. Most of the Forest Service staff at the Ranger Station didn't know what GIS was, and they certainly weren't using it at a local level for forest management. Thinking about this makes me wish I had about a couple million dollars in capital to spend. :] I still think there is great potential for a company to educate potential clients on the benefits of GIS to their particular organization, after which the company could then make an honest profit assisting with the organization with a low cost FOSS GIS implementations. It's too bad I have so much fun as a land surveyor, or I'd have to put more time into getting this type of business off the ground. With the US housing market in the toilet you never know what might happen... :] There will be lots of opportunities for FOSS GIS in the future. (It almost makes me want to buy stock in Refractions Research.) :] I think the key will be making more of an effort to find customers, instead of waiting for them to find us. I'm not talking about existing ESRI users, but rather people that have had little exposure to GIS to begin with, but who could easily be GIS users if someone showed them how. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Ramsey Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 9:09 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: FOSS4GIS business models Xen is one of those things where the market is SO DAMN HUGE that even the very SMALL proportion of money that an open source company can wring from the marketplace is actually non-trivial in an absolute sense. If Red Hat is only monetizing 0.01% of the Linux marketplace, that's still fine, because they are making millions. The best market places seem to be enterprise software with large new markets. Examples of success stories are JBoss, Red Hat, Sleepycat, MySQL, and note that the last two are actually sort of open source companies, in that they still fall back on the software-for-sale model for revenues. The trouble with the geospatial marketplace is that it is relatively small, so the small proportion an open source company can monetize is smaller still. The problem with service-oriented FOSS businesses is that they don't make money from software, so the easiest thing to cut in budgeting is core software development. Let the product languish for a while, it doesn't cost you anything as long as service business keeps flowing in. Or, in the case of pure consultancies, don't do any core development at all, just use the software. The service- oriented FOSS business I think has serious structural problems, not around providing good service, but around strong incentives to nourish the underlying software.
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: FOSS4GIS business models
Markus wrote: I have to say that I am a bit surprised that I got the impression (from the remarks by Paul and others) that the same is not possible in Northern America!? I'm no expert, but I think most people involved in FOSS development in America would agree that the political climate for FOSS in this nation can be very hostile. Microsoft is a very powerful lobby, and ESRI is fairly entrenched in the government world. (This may not be the case in some universities and far flung government offices, but it is definitely the rule.) From my own experience with other developers from OpenJUMP, which are mostly outside of the United States, support of FOSS by European governments is much stronger than here in America. I find this somewhat ironic, since it seems our publicly funded geospatial data is much more accessible than in Europe. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dr. Markus Lupp Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 4:03 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: FOSS4GIS business models Gilberto and all, I would like to give some comments on this from the perspective of a GIS company with an Open Source business model, I hope you will find them of interest. lat/lon was founded in the year 2000 as a private company (in Germany) and had from its beginning an open source business model. We do consulting and software development for GIS projects, mainly in the context of Spatial Data Infrastructures (SDI). Most of the project solutions we develop are based on deegree, a library tailored for interoperable SDIs that was originally developed together with Bonn University. We compete with other vendors, proprietary and open source based alike, on the same grounds (software quality, price, quality of support and so on). With each project we do, we develop deegree a step further, we have no source of funding that does not come out of projects we have to apply for first. I do not want to go into too much detail, but we do pretty good, which means we can pay our bills and have continuous growth year by year. Also there is a number of other companies by now that are developing solutions based on deegree, some of these companies are based in neighbouring countries. Now to the question of government intervention. After reading Gilberto's mail I asked myself what is meant by this term? In Germany (where lat/lon so far is mainly active) there is no official policy supporting open source software. There is a number of guidelines that suggest so, but all public bodies are free to do how they like. But there is a growing support from people in governmental agencies who decided by themselves that they want to use more open source software (Gilberto - is this what you mean by indirect support?). Still - as I said - there is not any kind of protectionism for Free Software. We (and other companies doing the same job) have to convience our clients that what we offer is good value for money. So from my point of view it is possible to compete in the GIS market using an open source business model without any high-level government intervention (although it surely helps). Perhaps Germany is special in this regard, but I doubt so - we are getting more and more projects in neighbouring countries as well. I guess that there are other companies having similar experiences. I have to say that I am a bit surprised that I got the impression (from the remarks by Paul and others) that the same is not possible in Northern America!? Best regards, Markus Gilberto Camara schrieb: Dear OSGEO Discussion List members: Paul Ramsey´s remarks are right on target. First, GIS is a large arena and there are different motivations for developers, that prevent them from joining a single project such as uDIG. Second, it is very difficult for a private company to develop a world-class FOSS4G product and survive based only on consulting fees for the commercial sector. Third, to overcome these limitations there is a need for governmental intervention, which may be direct, as in the case of Catalonian government´s support for gvSIG, or indirect, as in the decision of Germany to support open source software. In Brazil, the National Institute for Space Research (INPE) has been supporting local GIS development for 25 years, with a lot of success in our national user community. Without official support, there would be no local FOOS4G development in Brazil. In 2003, I did a F00S4G market survey and published the results as a chapter of a US National Academy of Sciences book: Open Source GIS Software: Myths and Realities www.dpi.inpe.br/gilberto/papers/camara_open_source_myths.pdf. We analysed 70 FOSS4G software projects taken from the FreeGIS list, and divided them into three categories: networked products (e.g. GRASS), corporate products (e.g., PostGIS) and individual products (e.g., CAVOR). From each
[OSGeo-Discuss] Origins Of OpenJUMP
Rich, I'll respond to your questions in a separate thread. :] (I invite any other OSGeo members that work with OpenJUMP or UDig to correct mistakes or add details to my post.) JUMP was originally developed by Vivid Solutions with some assistance (I'm not sure how much) by Refractions Research. I believe the funding for the development for JUMP came from some source in the Canadian government. (This source was one of the Canadian Provinces, if I remember correctly.) At some point funding was awarded for JUMP 2. This time the funds went to Refractions Research. Their development team had identified some of the design flaws in the original JUMP, and decided to fix these. In the end they decided to go with a completely new design, and UDig was the result. In the meantime Steve Tanner and some other JUMP users decided to fork the code base for JUMP. This was not done hastily. It's been a while since all this happened, and I'm not clear on every detail, but I believe one main reason we forked was a desire to internationalize JUMP's source code. The bottom line is that Vivid Solutions was (in my modest opinion) unresponsive to outside developers desire to make reasonable improvements or even contribute patches. At the same time they were doing very little with the code base themselves. This is what led to the fork. At one point we had a handful of different individual developers and organization maintaining their own versions of JUMP, and we realized we could all get together and benefit from a common core. This is still how OpenJUMP operates. We've got guys that maintain their own code bases with individual tools and modifications, but they all make a good effort to port the best (and least controversial) stuff back to the core. There really is no formal governance mechanism in place. We all get along well and try to help each other out. There are some issues with our model of development. We don't have a great release cycle, although that has been discussed in the last few months, and developer turnover can be fairly high. I'm also easily distracted, and I have to exercise self discipline to finish as task once I start it. I must regretfully admit this has not helped the project. (I'm consciously working on that personality flaw.) A couple of interesting things to note: - Our relationship with Vivid Solutions seems to have improved over the course of the last year. The two developers at the company that are in charge of JUMP occasionally help out with a problem on the OpenJUMP mailing list, and users of JUMP and OpenJUMP share a common mailing list. We've even talked about the possibility of merging JUMP and OpenJUMP back to a common core, but I think this is unlikely without some major funding at Vivid Solutions. - Had Steve and I known about Refractions Research involvement with JUMP 2 OpenJUMP and UDig would probably be the same program. I look at this with deep regret, although I don't think it is anyone's fault in particular. Still, I think about what the JUMP user community could have accomplished with Refractions Research and I get little tears in my eyes. :] Still, I get a kick out of Jody Garnett, and I hope OpenJUMP and GeoTools/UDig can work together more in the future. We definitely have some different approaches to certain aspects of software design, but I think at a minimum we can share data I/O or data access code and map projection code. Landon -Original Message- From: Richard Greenwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 7:32 PM To: Landon Blake Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: FOSS4GIS business models On Jan 3, 2008 4:37 PM, Landon Blake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think OpenJUMP might be an example of the opposite case. In this situation the less-than-ideal management of a FOSS GIS program by a private company led to a fork. The fork was made, not by another company, but by a group of individual users/developers. I'm interested in more details of the history and relationship between Jump, OpenJump, and uDig. I think OpenJump and uDig have roots in Jump, which was started by Martin Davis, or am I incorrect? And the fork came about when? And why? Maybe you would prefer to reply directly to the OSGeo-Discuss thread FOSS4GIS business models, but I'm afraid my questions are tangential to that thread. Rich -- Richard Greenwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.greenwoodmap.com Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] projection projects
Thanks for the e-mail Luis. You wrote: in gvSIG we're using a quite diferent approach to projections support. We're using a JNI wrapper over proj4, due to the accuracy of this library in the case of spanish datum changes (ED50-ETRS89). This sounds like a good approach for your project, but I wonder how good of a fit it will be with other Java projects. I think at the end of the day most Java projects will want a %100 Java library. You wrote: This is a sepparate project included on gvSIG, called libJCRS, that includes support for different SRS repositorys (EPSG, ESRI, IAU2000) as well as end user datums and projections. This sounds like something we could use. I wonder how different it is from the GeoTools code that accesses the ESPG database. I'm not really an active GeoTools developer, so it will be hard for me to answer this question. It would be great if we could integrate GeoTools work with this libJCRS library. Can you send me a link to Javadoc or other infor on libJCRS. Maybe I will bounce an e-mail over to the GeoTools folks. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Luis W. Sevilla Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:09 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] projection projects Hi Landon, in gvSIG we're using a quite diferent approach to projections support. We're using a JNI wrapper over proj4, due to the accuracy of this library in the case of spanish datum changes (ED50-ETRS89). Normative operations use a NadGrids grid, and geotools does not (or at last did not) support it. Another reason was to unify projection support both with geoDatabase (Postgis), and also with main WMS server (mapserver) on our SDI configurations. This is a sepparate project included on gvSIG, called libJCRS, that includes support for different SRS repositorys (EPSG, ESRI, IAU2000) as well as end user datums and projections. We think this may be also a reusable library other java project may also use. Greetings Luis Landon Blake wrote: I've spoken with a couple of the GeoTools folks about helping to maintain their projection code, which uses the ESPG database. This is of interest to me because it is a comprehensive (and working) projection library written in Java that we can incorporate into OpenJUMP. I don't know if there are any GeoTools/UDig developers that would like to participate in this OSGeo labs project that is under discussion, but I am interested. Perhaps I could help coordinate developments with GeoTools as part of what I hope will be my eventual support of projection code in GeoTools? I could definitely represent, at least unofficially, the OpenJUMP community. I'll subscribe to the mailing list that Frank set up. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frank Warmerdam Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 9:49 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Cc: Robert Bray Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] projection projects Mike Adair wrote: I'd like to follow up on a conversation that took place at FOSS4G in Victoria regarding a gathering of the open source projection clan under the OSGeo umbrella. Frank can probably expand on the idea more, but the idea being that it would be an opportunity to build up a community around the various coordinate system projects, each of which likely wouldn't be able to sustain that on their own. My immediate motivation for bringing this up now is that I need to set up a project infrastructure for proj4js [1] (svn, trac, email, PSC, etc.). This might be a good fit as an OSGeo 'Lab' project as discussed a few months ago, either as a project on it's own or within a group of projection projects. Mike, Good timing! I am still interested in this concept though I haven't followed up on it yet. My hope was that we could treat a variety of coordinate system activities as one Project from an OSGeo point of view. This helps get us past the issue that some (all?) of them are rather small in terms of teams to justify the full OSGeo project treatment. But more importantly it would give us a forum to cooperate. Sharing things like coordinate system dictionaries, test suites and such. My hopes for participants include: proj4js proj.4 (the version of PROJ.4 that I maintain) libproj4 (the projection-only library maintained by Gerald Evenden) OSGSpatialReference (GDAL coordinate system translation classes) CS-Map (the recently open sourced library from Norm Olsen) I'm also hopeful that folks from GeoTools, and OSSIM who maintain their own projections code would participate to take advantage of the dictionaries and test suites even though their libraries wouldn't be part of the project. This is a somewhat unorthodox arrangement so I've hesitated a bit to initiate things. Also, it obviously needs agreement from several parties. :-) In the interest of moving
[OSGeo-Discuss] FOSS GIS Podcasts
Did you know that Directions Magazine has GIS podcasts online? http://www.directionsmag.com/podcasts.php This has inspired me to try a couple of FOSS GIS podcasts. I bought a microphone and book on podcasting this weekend. I also downloaded Audacity to use for the podcast editing. I thought I would try an audio version of my first two (2) articles on spatial relationships in the OSGeo Journal as my first podcasts. Then I might try one or two on OpenJUMP. Are there other existing FOSS GIS podcasts? Landon Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] FOSS GIS Podcasts
Thanks Jorge! If only I could listen in Spanish! Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jorge Gaspar Sanz Salinas Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 8:25 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] FOSS GIS Podcasts 2008/1/21, Landon Blake [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Did you know that Directions Magazine has GIS podcasts online? http://www.directionsmag.com/podcasts.php This has inspired me to try a couple of FOSS GIS podcasts. I bought a microphone and book on podcasting this weekend. I also downloaded Audacity to use for the podcast editing. I thought I would try an audio version of my first two (2) articles on spatial relationships in the OSGeo Journal as my first podcasts. Then I might try one or two on OpenJUMP. Are there other existing FOSS GIS podcasts? Landon Hi Landon, for Spanish-enabled listeners I must recommend an Spanish podcast called Geografía para llevar (Geography to take away). They released some weeks ago some podcasts about FOSS4G. http://podespacial.com/ Podcasts 28 to 31 are about FOSS4G, anyway all their podcasts are really very interesting!! Cheers -- Jorge Gaspar Sanz Salinas Ingeniero en Geodesia y Cartografía http://www.geomaticblog.net http://www.prodevelop.es ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted
I'm down for whatever. :] Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mateusz Loskot Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 4:32 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted Landon Blake wrote: I like this idea. But it means that someone has to volunteer to moderate. :] Another similar suggestion would be to collect job postings until there were X postings. I think we could combine this with a wiki page. I would be willing to maintain a wiki page for job postings. There is a risk that wiki page will turn into a mess. People want to filter, search, etc. through job postings. Also, it would be nice to have simple 3-5 fields form for submissions. Mailing list archives provide such options. Though, mailing list seems to be/is spam prone. How much of work would be required to prepare form + generate job offers listing on the website using Drupal features, as Tyler suggested already? Perhaps it would be worth to spend some time to prepare small engine and than to organize long term maintenance procedure. Cheers -- Mateusz Loskot http://mateusz.loskot.net ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted
I'm not sure about this Lorenzo. I think Frank Wammerdam said that he would take care of setting up the mailing list. I think it should be fairly easy to add you as a moderator. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lorenzo Becchi Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 2:09 PM To: OSGeo Discussions; System Administration Committee Discussion/OSGeo Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted Landon, hi I guess that moderation should be made through mailman system am I wrong? The list moderators have more limited permissions; they are not able to change any list configuration variable, but they are allowed to tend to pending administration requests, including approving or rejecting held subscription requests, and disposing of held postings. Of course, the list administrators can also tend to pending requests. I think we should ask SAC (in CC) to kindly make a mailing list and set our 3 e-mail addresses as moderators. can this mail be considered a request to SAC? otherwise I'll do it via Trac ciao lorenzo Landon Blake wrote: I think we've got three people to moderate a mailing list. I think we should move forward with that. I'll tackle the wiki page if there are no objections. People interested in posting their job and/or resume on the wiki page could contact me directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Let me know if there are any objections to this. If there are no objections, then I will set up the wiki pages. Landon -Original Message- From: Michael P. Gerlek [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 11:32 AM To: Frank Warmerdam; Landon Blake Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted I've no interest in maintaining a wiki page -- but I'd be happy to own the occasional (biweekly) summary emails pointing to the wiki. Landon? -mpg -Original Message- From: Frank Warmerdam [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 12:18 PM To: Michael P. Gerlek; Landon Blake Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted Michael P. Gerlek wrote: Umm, me and Landon, I think. -mpg -Original Message- From: Frank Warmerdam [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 11:22 AM To: Michael P. Gerlek Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted Michael P. Gerlek wrote: +1 to Frank (as usual...) -- the more overhead we put into this, the less likely it will be sustainable. Pick a mailing list -- either Discuss or a new one -- and I think we've already got at least two volunteer moderators. Michael, Who were these 'at least two volunteers'? Landon, Is Michael right that you were willing to participate as an OSGeo Jobs moderator of some sort? Michael / Landon, Assuming so, I'd like as much as possible to turn this topic over to the two of you to pursue. I'm happy to prepare a mailing list for you when you want me to. I'd appreciate your contributing to: http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Jobs_Board I love Michael's idea of the jobs moderators summarizing positions to the discuss list periodically. I'd like to think every two weeks would be managable, but given enough currency to make it useful. You might find it helpful to write up some brief notes on what you would do as moderators. Something roughly akin to what we did for the News Editors at: http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/News_Queue That makes it easier for folks to know what you are doing, and easier to hand off the job to someone new after a while. I think it would be prudent to consider the jobs mailing list and associated job finding resources an activity of the web committee though that distinction is likely not too important most of the time. But if we want to get approval for a plan, that could be the place. And it will be the web committee that provides our web presence once we move onto the main site. Best regards, -- ---+-- I set the clouds in motion - turn up | Frank Warmerdam, [EMAIL PROTECTED] light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam and watch the world go round - Rush| President OSGeo, http://osgeo.org Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted
This sounds like a workable plan to me. I would like to make one suggested change. Why don't I make the wiki page shadow the mailing list. If people want their job or resume posted on the wiki they can indicate this in their e-mail post. I'll automatically remove job postings when requested or after three (3) months. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael P. Gerlek Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 2:28 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted On irc we've just worked out the following schema: * We will set up a jobs list, to which anyone can subscribe - expected to be low volume, but nonethess moderated by the troika of ominoverdi, Landon, and/or mpg * We will set up a Wiki page, owned maintained by Landon, which will shadow the jobs mailing list (or the list will shadow the wiki, whatever) * We will send a best of message to the discuss list biweekly, containing a summary of current jobs offered / jobs wanted for the period Comments? -mpg -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael P. Gerlek Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 2:13 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted Erp, in my initial proposal I was referring to using the discuss list as the venue, with the moderator being a human to whom job-related emails are submitted for vetting (and subsequent biweekly posting). -mpg -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Landon Blake Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 2:08 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted I'm not sure about this Lorenzo. I think Frank Wammerdam said that he would take care of setting up the mailing list. I think it should be fairly easy to add you as a moderator. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lorenzo Becchi Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 2:09 PM To: OSGeo Discussions; System Administration Committee Discussion/OSGeo Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted Landon, hi I guess that moderation should be made through mailman system am I wrong? The list moderators have more limited permissions; they are not able to change any list configuration variable, but they are allowed to tend to pending administration requests, including approving or rejecting held subscription requests, and disposing of held postings. Of course, the list administrators can also tend to pending requests. I think we should ask SAC (in CC) to kindly make a mailing list and set our 3 e-mail addresses as moderators. can this mail be considered a request to SAC? otherwise I'll do it via Trac ciao lorenzo Landon Blake wrote: I think we've got three people to moderate a mailing list. I think we should move forward with that. I'll tackle the wiki page if there are no objections. People interested in posting their job and/or resume on the wiki page could contact me directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Let me know if there are any objections to this. If there are no objections, then I will set up the wiki pages. Landon -Original Message- From: Michael P. Gerlek [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 11:32 AM To: Frank Warmerdam; Landon Blake Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted I've no interest in maintaining a wiki page -- but I'd be happy to own the occasional (biweekly) summary emails pointing to the wiki. Landon? -mpg -Original Message- From: Frank Warmerdam [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 12:18 PM To: Michael P. Gerlek; Landon Blake Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted Michael P. Gerlek wrote: Umm, me and Landon, I think. -mpg -Original Message- From: Frank Warmerdam [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 11:22 AM To: Michael P. Gerlek Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted Michael P. Gerlek wrote: +1 to Frank (as usual...) -- the more overhead we put into this, the less likely it will be sustainable. Pick a mailing list -- either Discuss or a new one -- and I think we've already got at least two volunteer moderators. Michael, Who were these 'at least two volunteers'? Landon, Is Michael right that you were willing to participate as an OSGeo Jobs moderator of some sort? Michael / Landon, Assuming so, I'd like as much as possible to turn this topic
[OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo Jobs Board
I have modified the Jobs Board page on the OSGeo wiki page created by Frank Wammerdam to serve as our OSGeo Jobs Board. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Landon Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Planet OSGeo
I like this idea as well. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mateusz Loskot Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 8:31 PM To: Discuss@lists.osgeo.org Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Planet OSGeo Folks, Is there any plan or motion to setup an official OSGeo Planet? Chris developed and maintains it at http://planetosgeo.crschmidt.net/ and it gathers a number of OSGeo bloggers, so the idea works! Perhaps it's a good idea to setup (or move) Chris' work to planet.osgeo.org and make it more an official OSGeo Community thing. There is a number of well-known and popular planets around the Web: http://planet.debian.org/ http://planet.gnome.org/ http://planet.ubuntu.com/ etc. and all of them play very important role in these communities. Perhaps this subject has been discussed already, but I couldn't find anything in the archives. Any thoughts? Cheers -- Mateusz Loskot http://mateusz.loskot.net ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Planet OSGeo
I'd be willing to shed the Sunburned Surveyor nickname for my real name on my OpenJUMP blog for OSGeo Planet if asked. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fee, James Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 2:45 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Planet OSGeo I've tried to push folks blogging to step out behind their handles and put their names out there. I think an OSGeo Planet that were to mimic the Planet Gnome would be a super idea. I've not pushed the issue as I've tried to be as open as possible with Planet Geospatial, but if I were to create a more specific planet, I would require real name and possibly even photos. I think that adds so much credibility to the community than all the handles that folks seem to use. Setting up a planet is very easy (Use Venus, not Planet) but feel free to consider me a resource as to what I've learned and struggled on over the years with Planet Geospatial. I spend almost no time managing it beyond cleaning out old feeds (probably not an issue with Planet OSGeo) and adding new feeds (hopefully there a lot of folks wanting to blog about OSGeo). James Fee TEC Inc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mateusz Loskot Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 3:03 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Planet OSGeo Fawcett, David wrote: I personally like reading the OS bloggers mixed in with the proprietary bloggers along with the bloggers who write about using tools from both camps, all at planetgs.com. Yup, planetgs.com does a great job and James Fee is a pioneer in gathering geospatial people from both worlds in common place. However, my personal feeling is that there is a lot or too much of anonymity on the Planet Geospatial, but communities are not formed by anonymous individuals. When I look at the list of aggregated blogs, I hardly can identify who is hiding behind all those names. If you check the list of members of http://planet.debian.org/ http://planet.ubuntu.com/ http://planet.gnome.org/ you see *only* and *real* names of people. IMHO, this is a very important difference for how community is visible to the world. Cheers -- Mateusz Loskot http://mateusz.loskot.net ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Possible candidates?
I can provide an answer for OpenJUMP. There are actually a couple reasons why I have not pushed for OpenJUMP to become an OSGeo project. [1] I don't know that we have the resources to become the type of project the OSGeo is looking for, at least not at this point. We don't have any large corporate or government sponsors. We are more like a bunch of guys working in their garages. This means our administration and governance are all very informal. We don't really have any rules or procedures. I have tried to inject more structure in the past, but it didn't seem to fit well with our community. I've totally backed off this stance. Our actual pace of development is fairly slow and very modular, so this lack of structure hasn't been a problem for us (yet). [2] I don't want to cause conflicts with GeoTools. In some sense we compete with GeoTools. The competition is not direct, because we follow an alternative methodology. GeoTools seems to favor standard compliance and comprehensive functionality, while OpenJUMP favors simplicity and practicality. It seemed when this was discussed previously that the hope was other FOSS Java GIS projects would eventually adopt GeoTools as a library. At the time I hoped that would also be the case. Now I realize that OpenJUMP and its family provide a healthy alternative to GeoTools. (Please don't misunderstand this as a knock on GeoTools. I didn't say OpenJUMP was better, just different.) Having said all this, I'm still not sure if we should cloud the OSGeo pool with an alternative set of FOSS Java GIS libraries. I guess I'm content to let things play out. If OpenJUMP survives as a simple and practical alternative to GeoTools for three or four years, then it might make more sense to bring it into the GeoTools fold. If not, GeoTools will reign supreme, as it should. In a sense this would be good for all of us, because it will focus development efforts on a single set of core Java libraries. However, I think there will be some issues in GeoTools that will need to be resolved before they can win enough programmers over. Until that happens, OpenJUMP and its offspring will be crawling along. Despite my reservations about suggesting to fellow OpenJUMP programmers that we make OpenJUMP a OSGeo project, I do try to be actively involved in OSGeo. It is an important organization. I think OpenJUMP programmers can do more good in this support capacity at this point in time. The Sunburned Surveyor -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Milo van der Linden Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 11:03 AM To: discuss@lists.osgeo.org Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Possible candidates? Hello list, I was just wondering why the following list of initiatives are not present in OSGeo, is it for a reason? - OpenJUMP - uDig - Geoserver Any comment appreciated, Kind regards, Milo van der Linden ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Drawing on the map based on coordinates
Justin, This is the discussion list for the OSGeo, a non-profit organization that supports open source GIS software development. It is not the user list for Mapguide. (This is a common mistake.) If you want an answer to your question you should find and post to the Mapguide user list. http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/mapguide-users Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Justin Driskell Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 6:11 AM To: discuss@lists.osgeo.org Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Drawing on the map based on coordinates Hello I am new to mapguide. I am using Mapguide 1.2 and IIS/Dot. I need to be able to draw shapes on the mapguide map from coordinates. I was looking at the sample webpage buffer task. I can see how shapes are drawn but I have not found how it gets its location where to draw. The example uses a click to get a feature and draws around it. I need to take Coordinates pulled from a database and draw the shape at that location. Any help pointing me in the direction of how to use coordinates instead of mouse clicks to that buffer task example would be appreciated. Thanks in advanced Justin Driskell Engineer 1 (770)-989-9488 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Scientific Research Corporation 2300 Windy Ridge Parkway Suite 400 South Atlanta, GA 30339 770-859-9161 (phone) 770-859-9315 (fax) ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Drawing on the map based on coordinates
Justin, I'm not a Mapguide user, but I think the mailing list I posted previously is the one that you want. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Justin Driskell Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 9:09 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Drawing on the map based on coordinates Ok let me check to make sure I understand and forgive my mistake. I am writing a function that will be used by my website (in CS) to grab coordinates of sites from a database. Then using the Mapguide API I will plot on the map those sites. I need to go else where for this answer? Can you direct me to where I can get Mapguide API help. I already have the Mapguide API documentation but I need a little help getting to the right function to do the job. Does Mapguide have a function like drawCircle(location, layer). Justin Driskell Engineer 1 (770)-989-9488 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Scientific Research Corporation 2300 Windy Ridge Parkway Suite 400 South Atlanta, GA 30339 770-859-9161 (phone) 770-859-9315 (fax) Landon Blake [EMAIL PROTECTED] 4/7/2008 11:19 AM Justin, This is the discussion list for the OSGeo, a non-profit organization that supports open source GIS software development. It is not the user list for Mapguide. (This is a common mistake.) If you want an answer to your question you should find and post to the Mapguide user list. http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/mapguide-users Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Justin Driskell Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 6:11 AM To: discuss@lists.osgeo.org Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Drawing on the map based on coordinates Hello I am new to mapguide. I am using Mapguide 1.2 and IIS/Dot. I need to be able to draw shapes on the mapguide map from coordinates. I was looking at the sample webpage buffer task. I can see how shapes are drawn but I have not found how it gets its location where to draw. The example uses a click to get a feature and draws around it. I need to take Coordinates pulled from a database and draw the shape at that location. Any help pointing me in the direction of how to use coordinates instead of mouse clicks to that buffer task example would be appreciated. Thanks in advanced Justin Driskell Engineer 1 (770)-989-9488 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Scientific Research Corporation 2300 Windy Ridge Parkway Suite 400 South Atlanta, GA 30339 770-859-9161 (phone) 770-859-9315 (fax) ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Your open source career
Tyler, You know I can't pass up an opportunity to talk about myself. :] I don't have much time because of an impending Friday deadline, but I will share a couple of thoughts with you. I could share more next week if you want. From my personal experience, skills as an open source programming can give employees a definite advantage in their career, especially in two types of organizations. The first type of organization is a small organization that can't afford the cost of proprietary software. This can be a huge cost, especially for software that is geared towards specialized professions, and not the mass of typical computer users. Employees with an open source skill set can offer solutions to this type of organization that wouldn't otherwise be possible. For example, we are able to use an enterprise database system and GIS software at my surveying and engineering company that are open source because of the skill set that a coworker and I have acquired, largely on our own time. This isn't software that my company would have purchased from a commercial vendor. The second type of organization is one in which a specialized trade or profession is practiced. These organizations are often not served by the out-of-the-box software that is suitable for more generic types of businesses. Any type of programming skills, including open source programming skills, enables an employee to develop custom solutions that assist their organization. These applications are generally better suited to the specialized tasks because they are written by an individual with a unique knowledge of the problem domain. This is not typically something you get from software developed by a third party. For example, I'm in the process of developing a tool that will process thousands of points collected during the course of a bathymetric survey, something we currently do in a spreadsheet. The tool, when completed, could save my company several man hours and hundreds of dollars on every bathymetric survey we perform. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tyler Mitchell (OSGeo) Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:12 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Your open source career Hi everyone, We've probably all heard of the typical business models for open source companies, but I'm working on a few slides for a presentation that highlight the benefit of open source for employees - and would love to hear from some of you. I have some personal examples where open source made me a more valuable employee, and how other colleagues who were into open source were considered invaluable. I also believe the many employers who value open source are able to attract talented staff that traditional or proprietary employers cannot. Do you have a story about how embracing open source geospatial applications helped broaden the opportunities for your future or helped you bust out of a mundane box? Maybe you learned on your own time and brought your new skills into the office? I'm particularly interested in your personal stories about how open source may have motivated you to grow, learn and extend your career or professional set of tools. Anyone want to share? Best wishes, Tyler ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?
A convert! Welcome Jennifer. I can't speak for GRASS, but I know that OpenJUMP (http://jump-pilot.sourceforge.net/OpenJUMP.html) could be compared to the old 3.X Arcview. It has limited printing abilities at this point in time, but I don't think there is a better cross-platform tool for basic ESRI Shapefile manipulation. (I'm a volunteer on the project and therefore biased in my opinion on this matter.) I think you will find you can do 95% of what you could with ESRI software, you'll just have to do it with an assortment of tools instead of a single tool. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jennifer Horsman Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:41 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)? The thread that was started today with the subject Your open source career got me thinking about asking a question that has been rolling around in my head. This is pointed at those people who have experience with ESRI products as well as OS GIS products. I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to start my own contract business and will not be able to afford the license for ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS installed, but it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS (it has probably changed since then too!) Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as ArcGIS? I know this is a very general question, so perhaps another question would be where does GRASS fall short and where does it excel in comparison to the ESRI products? Thanks, Jennifer ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] Java Collaboration...Again
The Java collaboration has reared its ugly head again... Some programmers from GeoTools, OpenJUMP, degree, and Open Plans are talking about the possibility (probably remote) of a shared library for SRS or CRS definitions and transformations. The idea wouldn't be to scrap existing libraries found in GeoTools and deegree, or in other projects, but to come up with a plan for eventually merging parts of these libraries into a single low-level library that could be shared among all. I'm going to make a modest effort to keep everyone talking and to move this forward. I posted a link on the Java GIS Collaboration page of the OSGeo wiki to this page for discussion of the library: http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Shared_CRS_and_CRS_Transformation_Library I thought I would post here so no Java GIS programmers are left out of the discussion if they want to participate. Landon Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Java Collaboration...Again
Frank, I will join the MetaCRS mailing list as you suggest. You wrote: If the Java folks don't feel that a shared CRS component belong properly in GeoTools... I don't think most of us will have a problem with the library being hosted by GeoTools. It seems like the logical choice. I can visit with Jody about this some more of things materialize. Thank you for the suggestions. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frank Warmerdam Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 11:16 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Cc: Martin Desruisseaux Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Java Collaboration...Again Landon Blake wrote: The Java collaboration has reared its ugly head again... Some programmers from GeoTools, OpenJUMP, degree, and Open Plans are talking about the possibility (probably remote) of a shared library for SRS or CRS definitions and transformations. The idea wouldn't be to scrap existing libraries found in GeoTools and deegree, or in other projects, but to come up with a plan for eventually merging parts of these libraries into a single low-level library that could be shared among all. I'm going to make a modest effort to keep everyone talking and to move this forward. I posted a link on the Java GIS Collaboration page of the OSGeo wiki to this page for discussion of the library: http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Shared_CRS_and_CRS_Transformation_Library I thought I would post here so no Java GIS programmers are left out of the discussion if they want to participate. Landon, I'm sure there will be some challenges in this effort. :-) I would also like to bring to your attention the MetaCRS project, an effort to confederate some other existing coordinate system related projects (particularly Proj4JS, CS-MAP and PROJ.4) and to work towards some shared test data and coordinate system dictionaries. http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/MetaCRS I would love to see a few Java folks join the mailing list. If nothing else, I would love to see some cooperation on shared test datasets, and coordinate system dictionaries with the Java world. If the Java folks don't feel that a shared CRS component belong properly in GeoTools, or one of the other cooperating projects, then it could also in theory be handled as part of MetaCRS, though I'm not pushing this idea too hard. Best regards, -- ---+ -- I set the clouds in motion - turn up | Frank Warmerdam, [EMAIL PROTECTED] light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam and watch the world go round - Rush| President OSGeo, http://osgeo.org ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Java Collaboration...Again
Frans, Perhaps I can help you understand. As far as I know the only two official OSGeo projects for the Java programming language are gvSIG and GeoTools. OpenJUMP isn't an official OSGeo project, but I hope that it is one day. :] Even though it isn't yet a project I try to stay active in the OSGeo as an organization, and I have a small role in the programming of OpenJUMP. Landon From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frans Thamura Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 7:45 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Java Collaboration...Again On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 9:44 PM, Frans Thamura [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: anyone have the list of stack diagram of OSGeo product that in Java? i still confuse and dont get the topic here ;) even I am java programmer, i am new in OSGeo:) Frans -- -- Frans Thamura Director Meruvian Redefining Civilization Indonesia Education, Consulting, Networking, Profesional Marketplace, OpenSource Development and Implementation Mobile: +62 855 7888 699 Skype: fthamura YM: [EMAIL PROTECTED] GoogleTalk: [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Java Champion Oracle Ace Director JEDI Indonesia / JENI Team JUG Indonesia Founder jTechnopreneur Community Founder Blogs: http://www.jroller.com/fthamura (English) http://www.nagasakti.or.id/roller/page/fthamura (Indonesia : Motivation Blog Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/fthamura Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Your open source career
I shouldn't have painted with such a broad brush. We actually have a great bunch of translators for OpenJUMP, and one user that does nothing but work on documentation. (English is actually a second language for this user.) I meant to speak in a more general sense. I agree with the earlier poster, who mentioned that documentation for FOSS GIS is not always as pervasive as it is for the ESRI stuff. I think this was an accurate observation. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jacolin Yves Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 8:25 AM To: discuss@lists.osgeo.org Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Your open source career Hi, Don't forget that some people are not developers but are ready to write documentation (in my native langage for me ;) ). Open Source is not only for developers, but for everyone who want to share his works (software, documentation, ideas, etc.). [my life]That's why I am working on OSGeo-fr, translating news about soft release, translating documentation (GDAL-Og, ImageMagick) into French, writing documentation about OpenLayers or OGC standards, etc. [/my life] And I am not alone :) They/we just don't talk so much on mailing list (it's bad I know :D ). Best regards, Y. Le Monday 05 May 2008 17:13:01 Landon Blake, vous avez écrit : Bruno, You are the exception! I am familiar with your book, as I bought a copy about 4 months back. iText is a great open source library! Please accept my commendation of your work. Having said that, I don't know that there are many of us that would have time to write a book on our favorite FOSS program. This is a great task that you have accomplished! Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruno Lowagie Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 8:04 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Your open source career Landon Blake wrote: The lack of good user documentation is a weakness of many open source projects. The problem is that most of us like to code, but few of us like to write! Speak for yourself! ;-) Am I the exception to the rule? *LOL* Please don't regard the following as shameless promo. I just want to share a very interesting experience with future F/OSS writers. I'm an Open Source developer ( http://www.lowagie.com/iText/ ) but I also like to write. In 2004, I took some time off from my day job to write a free online tutorial for iText because the lack of proper documentation was a problem that had to be addressed (you're right about that, Landon). Once the first pages of the free tutorial were online, I immediately received an offer to write a book about iText, first from O'Reilly, later on also from Manning. After long consideration, I decided to try writing a book for Manning Publications Co. because they have the reputation that they are very demanding. You may think I'm a masochist, but I thought that would be the best guarantee to write a good book. And it was! I talked with some authors who claimed that writing their first book for Manning was a good choice. In hindsight, I agree, although I might choose for O'Reilly next time ;-) I spent 3 months writing the book proposal (full TOC included). 6 months writing the manuscript. After these 9 months of hard labor, another 9 months were needed to get the book ready for production (copy editing, proof reading, making the index,...). The result is: http://www.1t3xt.com/docs/book.php Want to know how much I earned? No problem! Have a look at my Quarterly overviews here: http://www.lowagie.com/maand.php?year=2008month=4#806 The revenue listed is limited to the Royalties. You don't get rich from writing a book, but I also have indirect revenue from sales (when people buy the book after clicking a link on my site). I get 10% Royalties and if you study the Quarterly Overviews, you'll see that the sum I get for each book varies depending on many factors (time, location,...). I get between 5% (Amazon) and 15% (Manning) for selling the book using a link on my site. But it's not only about the money: the product has gotten much more attention and it has really boomed! Having a book is (almost) a guarantee for success for every F/OSS project. If you are planning to write a book, and you want an introduction at Manning Publications; or if you just want to talk about starting such a venture, let me know, and we'll chat. I know plenty of people who dream of writing a book, how I would like to persuade them that they should just start writing. I like to quote Henry David Thoreau: If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them. best regards (and please pardon my enthousiasm), Bruno Lowagie ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Your open source career
Bruno wrote: More specifically: I've been contacted by Dirk Frigne (geGIS / MAJAS) to solve the plot/print problem in the GIS world. That is very exciting! Please keep me posted. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruno Lowagie Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 8:28 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Your open source career Landon Blake wrote: Bruno, You are the exception! I am familiar with your book, as I bought a copy about 4 months back. iText is a great open source library! Please accept my commendation of your work. What I didn't say is that I've started teaching iText, and while doing so, I have plenty of new ideas for writing an even better book (some of the examples in the book are too academic), but you are right: writing a book takes a lot of time. Having said that, I don't know that there are many of us that would have time to write a book on our favorite FOSS program. This is a great task that you have accomplished! By the way: I'm currently adding some new functionality to iText, but once I'm done with my TODO list, I'll be looking towards the GIS market. More specifically: I've been contacted by Dirk Frigne (geGIS / MAJAS) to solve the plot/print problem in the GIS world. That's why I was lurking on this list. To be continued... Bruno ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] Research For Shared Java CRS Library
A fellow OSGeo member suggested that I move a topic from a private e-mail discussion to this mailing list. I have been talking with a couple of the guys from GeoTools, a couple of the guys from deegree, and a couple of guys from OpenJUMP about a shared Java CRS library. There are a lot of different opinions on the state of current libraries and on how to move forward on any shared library. Despite this I think there is room to share CRS definitions, algorithms and test cases among the different projects, and at some point in the future (maybe a couple of years from now), to share code. We would like to continue discussions on the obstacles and issues we will face in forming and maintaining a shared library (or other shared resources) over the long run. I believe at the current time there are two (2) main libraries used for CRS work in the Java communities. There is the CRS code in GeoTools and the CRS code in deegree. I think there may also be some personal and independent CRS libraries maintained by some well-known and active Java GIS programmers. I have started a wiki page on the OSGeo wiki to discuss collaboration on a shared Java library for CRS work. On this page I have created a list of questions about the current implementations of these existing CRS libraries. I think an important first step in any collaboration is answering these questions. I have posted a link to the questions for the deegree CRS code below: http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Java_CRS:_Details_on_Deegree_CRS_Code Over the course of the next couple of weeks I will work on answering these questions for the deegree and GeoTools CRS code. I'll be reading over the Javadoc for each library and past e-mail threads to do this. (I'll also be annoying members of each project's developer mailing list.) I welcome any assistance with this research. After I have answered these questions for at least the GeoTools and deegree CRS code I will try to come up with a plan for collaboration. This plan will start out with modest goals. I'll look first at sharing CRS definitions, algorithms, and test cases. Then I'll look at sharing neutral utility code. In the final stages of the plan I'll look at refactoring common classes and/or interfaces from each library into a shared library, with the ultimate goal on creating one shared, low-level Java CRS library. I will post this plan here so others can review and comment on it. I'm not sure where all of this will lead, or if anything will come of it, but I know we can accomplish a great deal if we can get some of the sharp minds in the different Java GIS projects working together instead of independently. I know some of you want to know why we aren't just going to use the GeoAPI interfaces. I don't know enough about the GeoAPI code to say that it won't be used. I think that will need to be part of our research process. It would make sense to use GeoAPI as a home for common interfaces if this is possible. I don't want to reinvent any existing technology. Landon P.S. - I have subscribed to the MetaCRS mailing list. I will post messages there about any decisions made on sharing programming-language-independent (PLI) resources like CRS definitions or test cases. Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Research For Shared Java CRS Library
Thanks for the input Justin. I agree simplicity (and the broad adoption that results from simplicity) is a primary goal. We shouldn't let GeoAPI stand in the way of that. Does anyone know how much of the existing GeoTools code is actually based on the CRS interfaces in GeoAPI? Is anyone besides GeoTools using the GeoAPI interfaces for a CRS library implementation in Java? Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Justin Deoliveira Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 1:20 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Research For Shared Java CRS Library I know some of you want to know why we aren't just going to use the GeoAPI interfaces. I don't know enough about the GeoAPI code to say that it won't be used. I think that will need to be part of our research process. It would make sense to use GeoAPI as a home for common interfaces if this is possible. I don't want to reinvent any existing technology. Just to chime in about GeoAPI. From someone who has had to implement a number of its interfaces here are my thoughts. 1) Its a great way to talk about standards in the context of java interfaces 2) Its not a good way to promote interoperability Now this is just my opinion of course so take it with a grain of salt. But anyone who has looked at the geoapi interfaces can tell you they are not simple. Which creates a large entry barrier for someone wanting to implement them, which defeats the entire purpose. I would think by definition a library which is intended to be used as a base for other projects needs to be as simple as possible. Look at proj for instance, i am by no means an expert on the code base but from what I have seen there are no unnecessary abstractions. Which I would think is a large part of the reason it has been utilized so effectively by most of the other projects in the C and python community. My 2c. -Justin Landon P.S. - I have subscribed to the MetaCRS mailing list. I will post messages there about any decisions made on sharing programming-language-independent (PLI) resources like CRS definitions or test cases. *Warning: *Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. !DSPAM:4007,481f601c109671628642973! ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss !DSPAM:4007,481f601c109671628642973! -- Justin Deoliveira The Open Planning Project [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] scale of FOSS projects
Jo, You have touched on an issue dear to my heart. I have a lot of work to do this afternoon, so I can't babble on as I normally do. But, I can't resist one or two short comments. Jo wrote: In the past i've heard it suggested that really successful open source projects now need serious organisational backing. They can't be built by a network of partly-funded enthusiast contributors alone. I won't disagree with this perspective, I will only offer this point for consideration: An open source project appears more stable to me if it is supported by a network of party-funded enthusiasts contributors than a single corporate entity. Why? What happens when that corporate entity is sold, goes out of business, or looses interest in the open source project, or looses funding for the open source project? Users have very little control over the corporate decision making process. An open source project supported by a diverse group of volunteers has a much greater chance of surviving in my humble opinion. OpenJUMP would be one example of this. If it had depended on its original corporate sponsor for survival it would have died a long time ago. I think the ability to fork open source code puts a real limitation on the ability of any one entity to create an open source monopoly. Forks are the ultimate evil in the open source world, but they sometimes become the necessary nuclear option. One open source program that I can think of that survived a serious fork is Inkscape/Sodipod, with Inkscape now being what I would call an successful open source project. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 1:11 PM To: discuss@lists.osgeo.org Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] scale of FOSS projects Increasingly the projects that OSGeo accepts into incubation are ones that have been created and supported by a large organisation - a company or agency - now seeking to get more people from outside, who they are not directly supporting, properly involved. In the past i've heard it suggested that really successful open source projects now need serious organisational backing. They can't be built by a network of partly-funded enthusiast contributors alone. (There *are* noble exceptions, but those are projects which either have been around for a good long while, or which are libraries reused and maintained by several projects as collective infrastructure) This project is mature enough to be used for the task, without fear it's going to disappear without a trace... that's part of what OSGeo incubation is all about I wonder about a cultural climate generally - NOT an OSGeo-specific one - in which projects have to have a certain amount of institutional support in order to even get *into* the incubation process, let alone graduate out of it. I heard this complaint from a few Apache Software Foundation people a couple of years ago. They were getting so many applicants for incubation - and had several dozen projects in the incubator at once - the only was to really assess quality going in, and commitment to future maintenance, was to focus on projects with 40+ committers and existing corporate support. (This culture change in turn led to core ASF'ers keeping their newer projects *out* of the foundation. Now there are more ASF brings you Yahoo!'s... projects like http://hadoop.apache.org/) If a project has a given amount of momentum, marketing resources applied to it, a contributing user community; is there any sense in competing by building something new with a lot of conceptual overlap? If there isn't, don't de facto monopolies start to develop inside FOSS as much as they do in proprietary software systems? A situation where a very few projects make it into broad and stable use, and a very many just spike, flutter and fade - well perhaps the open source ecology has always looked this way. But the more a few projects gather monopoly momentum, the less likely it is that newer projects can build up sufficient scale to challenge them. The kind of incubation process run by OSGeo, ASF, then serves to accentuate and promote this. If this is inevitable, why? Is innovation less possible outside the enterprise? Is this even a FOSS problem or a computing-in-the-broad one? (Please note i *don't* intend any criticism of the projects that are coming through incubation at the moment. It's great news that latlon.de now see more potential value in deegree becoming an OSGeo project than in being marketed as a latlon project. hooray!) I would appreciate hearing any thoughts that this provoked. jo -- ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] scale of FOSS projects
Real artists ship. For everyone else, there is wanking. I'm going to add that to my book of favorite quotes. To bad it means I'm a wanker myself... Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of P Kishor Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 3:15 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] scale of FOSS projects On 5/8/08, Schuyler Erle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2008-05-08 at 12:03 +0200, Mateusz Loskot wrote: Yes it does. Karl Fogel describes it very well in his book (http://producingoss.com). I strongly recommend it to project leaders and developers who maintain just-opened and want to get dirty with principles of the FOSS world. One important point that Fogel makes that I think is worth noting here is that the number-one sine-qua-non of *any* potentially successful software project is *shipping working code*. Until a developer does that, the discussion of whether or not his/her project needs or deserves institutional/organizational support to succeed further is moot. Steve Coast (OSM) echoed the same sentiment very elegantly -- Real artists ship. For everyone else, there is wanking. After a short hesitation, I have really come to appreciate it. Yup, unless there is working code, everything else -- sponsorships, organization, standards, committees, mailing lists -- is pointless. Smart guy, that Coast. SDE ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] scale of FOSS projects
I wasn't trying to apply this quote to all forms of non-programming support on open source projects. I was applying it to programmers like myself, that have 52 projects in their Eclipse IDE, but only two Ant scripts that actually produce a working JAR file on a regular basis. It seems my bad habit of starting things before I complete existing tasks flourishes in my programming. That is the type of wanking to which I referred. :] Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frank Warmerdam Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 7:29 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] scale of FOSS projects Real artists ship. For everyone else, there is wanking. Folks, For the record, while I acknowledge a kernel of truth in this, I find the statement so elitist and dismissive of the varied efforts that it takes to make things work that I cringe every time I hear it. Discussion, conferences, standards, coordination, etc all play an important role in making a software ecosystem useful. If there is a lesson, it may be that these other things shouldn't become so all consuming that they prevent actually producing useful software. Needless to say, by the standard of this statement I'm a wanker for bothering to point this out, and you folks are all wankers for repeating SteveC's bon mot. Best regards, -- ---+ -- I set the clouds in motion - turn up | Frank Warmerdam, [EMAIL PROTECTED] light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam and watch the world go round - Rush| President OSGeo, http://osgeo.org ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Sign the Hague declaration
I thought it might be wise to point out that this discussion seems to be getting a little aggressive, and possibly a little personal. All sides have made valid points. It's obvious that Mr. Fee isn't going to agree with many of us on this particular issue, and his opinion is worth considering. I would remind Mr. Fee, very humbly (of course), that he is on the OSGeo mailing list, so in some respects he's chosen a fight in which he is very outnumbered. I don't know how productive it is to aggressively defend something like the .doc format on a mailing list for proponents of open source software. :] You'll probably have about as much success as you would touting the .odt format on a mailing list for the Microsoft Word fan club. :] Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fee, James Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 9:40 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Sign the Hague declaration Chris Puttick wrote: I'm sorry. In what way does requiring digital information to be in an open standard force or exclude anyone? Be very sure those companies desperately resisting the development and/or support of digital standards would provide support for government mandated ones really, really fast. I thought we were talking about forcing governments to offer up information in a open standard format. Are you saying that if a city has standardized on MS Office, it would be ok for them to continue to post .doc? I got the feeling that folks are saying these cities need to abandon their software and move to other platforms someone arbitrarily says is open. Let's take the example of mandating OpenDocument Format. There you are, either moderately well-off or using an illegal copy of Microsoft Office and suddenly you would be unable to read/write documents provided by government bodies. What is the difference if OpenOffice supports a standard such as the old doc format? I see nothing in the MS argument that forces folks to use illegal copies of MS Office (heck use Google Docs). So sure, in the interim you might be forced to download one of several free (as in beer, some free as in libre) applications to access those documents. Terrible imposition, my apologies. This is somehow worse than being forced to either have second rate access because you have too old a copy of Microsoft Office, use an operating system for which Microsoft Office is not available or choose not to break the law by using illegal copies of software? I fail to see the problem here. Either you have a copy of MS Office, or you use OpenOffice already to view Word documents. This isn't about users of the information because there are several free (as in beer, some free as in libre) applications to access those proprietary documents. This is about forcing governments to either buy software that produces open documents (that are readable by less software than the proprietary formats), or forcing them to pay consultants to install, train and debug open solutions. What a complete waste of everyone's time. Sharing of data happens because the system at large demands that it happens, not because a couple of folks sign some non-binding document on the internet. -- James Fee, GISP Associate TEC Inc. voice: 480.736.3976 data: 480.736.3677 internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Sign the Hague declaration
James wrote: My point isn't that .doc is a good format, but it is readily available to read in many software packages (some very free and open). In this sense .doc is a lot like .dwg files. It's use is pervasive, but there is no published spec. That is one thing that really makes ESRI Shapefiles stand out from the crowd. As soon as ESRI published the spec for Shapefiles it was easy for them to become universal. I won't comment on the .doc topic, but I will say that I believe Autodesk has vehemently guarded the .dwg format to maintain a monopoly. I suppose you could argue the same thing of Microsoft. I will point out one important difference between .dwg and .doc, however. Autodesk does publish the spec for the DXF format. There isn't a whole terrible lot that you can transfer with a DXF that you can with a DWG. I don't think rtf or .txt come even close to .doc. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fee, James Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 9:57 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Sign the Hague declaration Landon Blake wrote I would remind Mr. Fee, very humbly (of course), that he is on the OSGeo mailing list, so in some respects he's chosen a fight in which he is very outnumbered. I don't know how productive it is to aggressively defend something like the .doc format on a mailing list for proponents of open source software. :] Let me assure you I'm am cursing Microsoft Office as we speak. My point isn't that .doc is a good format, but it is readily available to read in many software packages (some very free and open). Things like ESRI's File Geodatabase are probably formats that I would tend to agree are an impediment to sharing data, but I don't see how any of the MS formats are limiting people using them or creating them. -- James Fee, GISP Associate TEC Inc. voice: 480.736.3976 data: 480.736.3677 internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Sign the Hague declaration
Frank wrote: And I'm a very practical guy. Me too. I wasn't trying to discourage James, just point out that he was arguing about .doc on the OSGeo mailing list. I thought that was kinda funny. :] Frank wrote: On the other hand, in many cases, government agencies have ended up publishing data in formats like SAIF, SDTS and various highly custom GML schemas that are technically open, but for practical purposes they are very difficult to utilize. Amen. Can I get a shout out for the death of impractical standards? (I think we should implement a sacred law every standard author should be forced to create an implementation of his own standard beast. That might go a long way towards solving the impractical standard problem.) Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frank Warmerdam Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 10:13 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Sign the Hague declaration Landon Blake wrote: I thought it might be wise to point out that this discussion seems to be getting a little aggressive, and possibly a little personal. All sides have made valid points. It's obvious that Mr. Fee isn't going to agree with many of us on this particular issue, and his opinion is worth considering. I would remind Mr. Fee, very humbly (of course), that he is on the OSGeo mailing list, so in some respects he's chosen a fight in which he is very outnumbered. I don't know how productive it is to aggressively defend something like the .doc format on a mailing list for proponents of open source software. :] You'll probably have about as much success as you would touting the odt format on a mailing list for the Microsoft Word fan club. :] Landon, James is making valid points about practical aspects of openness. I hesitate to sign the declaration because it seems to absolutist and not recognizing of practical aspects of openness (as opposed to de-jure definitions of open standards). I personally am dubious this discussion will accomplish anything useful because of the vague generalities of the original proposition, and the lack of a real purpose to the discussion. But I'm also not inclined to discourage James or others from expressing their position once the discussion has started. Another example often given a bit more in our realm than .doc files is shapefiles. They are technically a proprietary format belonging to one proprietary vendor. But the format is published, widely implemented in free and proprietary software and quite understandable. So I think it is reasonable for government data to be distributed in this format. On the other hand, in many cases, government agencies have ended up publishing data in formats like SAIF, SDTS and various highly custom GML schemas that are technically open, but for practical purposes they are very difficult to utilize. What I would like to discourage is governments distributing in file formats (like the mentioned new ESRI File Geodatabase) that are effectively closed - at least for the time being. Like MPG, I'm sympathetic to the goals of the declaration but am concerned it is not sufficiently practical. And I'm a very practical guy. Best regards, -- ---+ -- I set the clouds in motion - turn up | Frank Warmerdam, [EMAIL PROTECTED] light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam and watch the world go round - Rush| President OSGeo, http://osgeo.org ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Sign the Hague declaration
Frank wrote: I also do not accept that getting government data in open standard formats is a basic right... I had to respond to this statement. :] I'd be pretty upset of my federal, state, or local government released written information in French. It would be pretty useless to me. I think the same could be said for digital information in some type of proprietary binary format. If you don't have the software needed to read it, it might as well be in French. As a consequence, I don think governments have a responsibility to distribute digital information in a form that is palatable. Preferably this data would be in a human-readable format, and would also be capable of being parsed, but palatable at a minimum. Give me a PDF if nothing else, but I'd rather have it as a CSV file. :] I would also point out that the political climate in the United States when it comes to open source and open standards is quite different in the United States than it is in Europe. Companies like Microsoft are very much involved in applying money and political pressure to make sure formats like .doc remain mainstream and in use by the government. I don't think this is the case in Europe, but I could be mistaken. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frank Warmerdam Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 10:59 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Sign the Hague declaration Benjamin Henrion wrote: Another example often given a bit more in our realm than .doc files is shapefiles. They are technically a proprietary format belonging to one proprietary vendor. But the format is published, widely implemented in free and proprietary software and quite understandable. So I think it is reasonable for government data to be distributed in this format. Free of patents? ESRI has always been the Microsoft of GIS, so beware of patents on this particular format. Benjamin, It is hard to always ensure there cannot be a patent that could apply, but for a simple format like shapefile it would be hard to apply a patent. Note that a company can hold patents on open standards too. The fact that one company promulgates a format does not give them that much leverage in patenting it. Patents are a danger onto their own, and not directly tied (IMHO) to the open standard vs. nominally proprietary format discussion. Like MPG, I'm sympathetic to the goals of the declaration but am concerned it is not sufficiently practical. And I'm a very practical guy. Practical guys makes compromises with freedom. As a citizen, I don't accept the government rolling over my basic rights. I do not accept your claim that my being practical is equivelent to making compromises with freedom. I also do not accept that getting government data in open standard formats is a basic right, and attempting to make this equivelence to some degree cheapens the really basic rights (like rights to due process under the law, etc). I would add, taking such a position is very alienating to the bulk of humanity that you need to get behind an idea like this before it will actually take root. I think there is a great danger to the open source, open data, and open standards efforts in the attempts to legislate them. Done carelessly, legislation will inevitably lead to situations that are rediculous and this will discredit the whole effort. We see similar things with free healthcare, unions, minority rights (all of which I support) which if promoted without reference to common sense will result in a serious backlash. Certainly the government mandated use of some large unwieldy standard file formats in the geospatial realm has left a lot of people with a bad taste in their mouth with regard to standards. I can see I'm getting rather broad here. I'd better stop now. Best regards, -- ---+ -- I set the clouds in motion - turn up | Frank Warmerdam, [EMAIL PROTECTED] light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam and watch the world go round - Rush| President OSGeo, http://osgeo.org ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Sign the Hague declaration
Tim wrote: Getting back to the original issue, I think the real problem (as previously noted) is the insistence in absolute terms with using only open standards. It sounds great until you look at the consequences. No de jure standard for the problem space you're working in? Tough. Significant numbers of users *want* data in a proprietary de facto format? To bad. Standard makes requirements you don't want or need to address? Suck it up. Excellent points. If I had to point out the defects with the resolution that touched off this discussion that's what I would have said. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tim Bowden Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 10:40 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Sign the Hague declaration On Thu, 2008-05-15 at 09:53 -0700, Landon Blake wrote: I thought it might be wise to point out that this discussion seems to be getting a little aggressive, and possibly a little personal. All sides have made valid points. It's obvious that Mr. Fee isn't going to agree with many of us on this particular issue, and his opinion is worth considering. I would remind Mr. Fee, very humbly (of course), that he is on the OSGeo mailing list, so in some respects he's chosen a fight in which he is very outnumbered. I don't know how productive it is to aggressively defend something like the .doc format on a mailing list for proponents of open source software. :] You'll probably have about as much success as you would touting the odt format on a mailing list for the Microsoft Word fan club. :] I'm not at all sure Mr Fee is trying to be productive. He is shooting fish in a barrel. It's so bloody easy getting the freetards [1] frothing at the mouth over these issues. If he has any sense, he'll be having a quiet chuckle to himself. The ease with which one can get a rise out of freetards points to the absurdity of taking an extremely hard line approach wrt standards. Getting back to the original issue, I think the real problem (as previously noted) is the insistence in absolute terms with using only open standards. It sounds great until you look at the consequences. No de jure standard for the problem space you're working in? Tough. Significant numbers of users *want* data in a proprietary de facto format? To bad. Standard makes requirements you don't want or need to address? Suck it up. Yes, we want to be able to read write data and have confidence in the integrity of the data. We want to avoid hurdles to interoperability, and open standards help, but they're not a panacea. They do come with their own set of problems, and no matter how you approach the issue, they won't be ubiquitous. You can't *force* vendors to offer solutions that implement open standards. You can refuse to purchase their solutions, but what do you do when the cost of re-implementing for the sake of having an open standard exceeds the cost of the problem being solved? Ignore the closed solution and not solve the problem, or suck it up and use the proprietary solution anyway? Anyway, it's late here, and not even watching the IPL is going to keep me awake any longer (Indian Premier League- cricket for those from the wrong parts of the world). Tim Bowden [1] I count myself as one of the freetards. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fee, James Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 9:40 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Sign the Hague declaration Chris Puttick wrote: I'm sorry. In what way does requiring digital information to be in an open standard force or exclude anyone? Be very sure those companies desperately resisting the development and/or support of digital standards would provide support for government mandated ones really, really fast. I thought we were talking about forcing governments to offer up information in a open standard format. Are you saying that if a city has standardized on MS Office, it would be ok for them to continue to post .doc? I got the feeling that folks are saying these cities need to abandon their software and move to other platforms someone arbitrarily says is open. Let's take the example of mandating OpenDocument Format. There you are, either moderately well-off or using an illegal copy of Microsoft Office and suddenly you would be unable to read/write documents provided by government bodies. What is the difference if OpenOffice supports a standard such as the old doc format? I see nothing in the MS argument that forces folks to use illegal copies of MS Office (heck use Google Docs). So sure, in the interim you might be forced to download one of several free (as in beer, some free as in libre) applications to access those documents. Terrible imposition, my apologies. This is somehow worse than being forced to either have
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Options for a Java Collaboration Mailing List
Arnulf, I already submitted a request as requested by Tyler Mitchell. (That was actually a few days ago.) We can always use a Google Group (or something similar) but I thought it was a topic of discussion suitable for the OSGeo, as did others. About how long will it take SAC to make a decision? Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Arnulf Christl (OSGeo) Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 3:25 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Options for a Java Collaboration Mailing List On Fri, May 9, 2008 21:11, Landon Blake wrote: It looks like the Java collaboration idea is starting to warm up. Several programmers from the different Java GIS projects have been exchanging e-mails, and someone suggested we start a mailing list to discuss collaboration issues. We'd like to have this mailing list affiliated with the OSGeo if there are no objections from members. This would give the list a neutral tone and would help integrate efforts at collaboration into the GeoTools fold. Are there any objections to setting up a mailing list for this purpose? Would an existing list, like the standards list, be a better option? Thanks, Landon Landon, you can request to set up a mailing list once you feel that there is a reasonable number of people who would contribute. SAC is the place to ask for setting it up, so file them a ticket: http://trac.osgeo.org/osgeo/ (need to be logged in with your OSGeo account, select Component SAC). You should provide a rationale and a short description of what it is supposed to be used for. An additional concise one-liner is required for the description which appears here: http://lists.osgeo.org/ (there still are some without topic). If SAC has an issue with it they might push it over to the board to decide. I don't think that the standards list is the appropriate place to discuss Java collaboration. But on the other hand that list did not see too much traffic lately (although there seems to be quite a lot of need for people to bicker about as could be seen on Discuss recently... :-). But if you feel like it - go ahead and start to discuss there, once there is enough traffic to become a nuisance to other standards wanker you can have your own list. Best regards, -- Arnulf Benno Christl http://www.osgeo.org (OSGeo Board Member) +50.7342N +7.0707E ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Source development metrics
Bruce, I agree with Puneet. In this scenario it would make more sense for the organization to maintain their own fork of the code to which improvements can be made. This really doesn't cause problems for the parent of the fork as long as there is an established process and some honest effort made to integrate the best of the improvements back into the parent code base. This is actually how OpenJUMP works. There are only a handful of developers that actually work on the parent code base. Most of our contributors maintain their own fork, but siphon back improvements to the parent. Landon From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 12:00 AM To: discuss@lists.osgeo.org Cc: Aust-NZ OSGeo Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Source development metrics IMO: An issue has come up recently on the OSGeo-AustNZ list that I'd appreciate some feedback from our wider OSGeo Community. The context of this issue is that we are exploring ways to support development of the GeoNetwork ANZLIC Profile. In particular, we're looking at options that allow permanent staff to contribute to ongoing OS development work outside of normal Project based development with its well defined deliverables and timeframes. In Australia within the public sector and also in many larger private organisations there is a Human Resources process in place that is based on Performance Management. This process allows either staff or managers to initiate discussions that allow for goal based work to be undertaken. In principal both parties agree to a set of goals. If the goals are met, it contributes to the employee's remuneration review. What I'm trying to find are some examples of generic metrics that are meaninful to Open Source development methodologies. They must be specific, meaningful and measurable. For example, we could look at measures such as: Get feature X accepted into the trunk of GeoNetwork by June 2009 However this is probably unrealistic as to do this the developer will have to have existing credibility within the community and there may be good reasons why the community does not want to have 'product X' included. Does anyone have any examples that they use or thoughts on the above? I do understand that metrics can be abused, may be meaningless and may not be the best way to handle this, however we have to start somewhere. We have a window of opportunity to get some more developers working on OS projects as the Performance Planning cycle re-starts shortly and I'd like to help our developers get some constructive ideas to take into their sessions. Bruce Bannerman Notice: This email and any attachments may contain information that is personal, confidential, legally privileged and/or copyright. No part of it should be reproduced, adapted or communicated without the prior written consent of the copyright owner. It is the responsibility of the recipient to check for and remove viruses. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by return email, delete it from your system and destroy any copies. You are not authorised to use, communicate or rely on the information contained in this email. Please consider the environment before printing this email. Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Source development metrics
I think I should clarify what I mean by a fork. There is the very public, conflict-driven version of a fork, and then there is an often private, cooperative version of a fork. Imagine this scenario: The company Who's Wet Now Inc. is using OpenJUMP internally to produce flood maps of urban areas in the United States. They have several features that they would like to add to OpenJUMP, but need to integrate the features more quickly than is normally possible in the OpenJUMP community. As a result, they maintain a private fork of the main OpenJUMP code base in their own SVN repository. This allows them to integrate there new features quickly, without waiting for discussion and approval by the larger OpenJUMP community. The private build of OpenJUMP is distributed to all their employees. The most commonly used features are then moved by Who's Wet Now into the main OpenJUMP code base after community discussion and approval. Any patches for bugs found during the Who's Wet Now development process are also migrated back to the main OpenJUMP code base. In a scenario like this I think a fork may be acceptable, and even a beneficial thing. I think any of the following reasons would be valid reasons for maintaining this type of cooperative fork: [1] New features that an organization wants to integrate into the program are very specialized and would not be utilized by most of the community. [2] Changes an organization wants to make to a program are controversial or experimental. [3] An organization needs to move development ahead at a pace that is faster than the larger community of developers is comfortable with. As long as the organization maintaining the private fork does [1] a good job of tracking their modifications compared to the parent code base, and [2] actively participates in moving the benefits of their fork development back to the parent code base when appropriate, I don't see any problem with the fork. This is based on my own limited experience with OpenJUMP, which is just one program among many. If the organization creating the fork is not a good citizen of the community then I recognize that a fork can be a very bad thing. Landon From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Miguel Montesinos Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 3:09 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Source development metrics Landon, on the other hand, following that logic, if forking is advisable, it will keep on growing, with new forks, new forks-of-the-fork, and so on. The energy needed to keep all that project forkhood somehow synchronized is not only honest, but discouraging and efectiveless. I don't see neither how a user can simply make a proper decission among a fork-hood. Not everybody is expert enough to understand differences, or has enough time to download several forks and compare them (continously in time). Are really all the differences among forks impossible to reconcile, using that 'honest effort'? ;-) Miguel De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] en nombre de Landon Blake Enviado el: mié 28/05/2008 16:27 Para: OSGeo Discussions Asunto: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Source development metrics Bruce, I agree with Puneet. In this scenario it would make more sense for the organization to maintain their own fork of the code to which improvements can be made. This really doesn't cause problems for the parent of the fork as long as there is an established process and some honest effort made to integrate the best of the improvements back into the parent code base. This is actually how OpenJUMP works. There are only a handful of developers that actually work on the parent code base. Most of our contributors maintain their own fork, but siphon back improvements to the parent. Landon From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 12:00 AM To: discuss@lists.osgeo.org Cc: Aust-NZ OSGeo Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open Source development metrics IMO: An issue has come up recently on the OSGeo-AustNZ list that I'd appreciate some feedback from our wider OSGeo Community. The context of this issue is that we are exploring ways to support development of the GeoNetwork ANZLIC Profile. In particular, we're looking at options that allow permanent staff to contribute to ongoing OS development work outside of normal Project based development with its well defined deliverables and timeframes. In Australia within the public sector and also in many larger private organisations there is a Human Resources process in place that is based on Performance Management. This process allows either staff or managers to initiate discussions that allow for goal based work to be undertaken. In principal both parties agree to a set of goals
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Voting for new OSGeo Charter Members open until6th June 2008
+1 on making all 18 charter members. I know I can personally vouch for both Martin Davis and Markus Lupp. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of P Kishor Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 1:17 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Voting for new OSGeo Charter Members open until6th June 2008 On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 3:41 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: dear all, The list of nominations for new OSGeo Charter Members is here: http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/New_Member_Nominations_2008 From today until the end of Friday 6th June 2008, votes for 15 new Charter Members are being accepted at [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is a great list. Each one of those listed would be (well, already is) a great asset to the OSGeo cause and community. There are only 18 on that list, so that means 3 will be left out. My vote? Charter-ify all 18 of them. * Only Charter Members are eligible to vote! * Please email [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a list of names 15 lines long (one vote per new member slot) * Votes can be for 15 different people, or the same person 15 times, or any balance in between. http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Election_2008 has more links. Charter Members are responsible for electing the Board of the OSGeo Foundation. The initial group of Charter Members was the 25 people in the Free and Open Source Geospatial community who attended the startup meeting of the Foundation in Chicago on 4th Feb. 2006 This group later selected another 20 Charter Members and they in turn elected the first complete Board in the summer of 2006. In 2007 another 15 Charter Members were elected to the Foundation (one stood down). The current list is at http://www.osgeo.org/charter_members http://www.osgeo.org/membership explains why the Charter Membership exists, basically as an attempt to guarantee the ongoing integrity of the Board as representative of the community at large. This is seen as more stable, and less liable to hijack, than granting a vote in exchange for payment (like the OpenStreetmap Foundation) or in exchange for measurable contribution (like Wikimedia's Foundation) This year's nominations again, for those who read this far: http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/New_Member_Nominations_2008 jo -- -- Puneet Kishor ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] Seeking Recommendations On Software Export From An Attorney
Is it possible to move forward with seeking recommendations on OSGeo policies regarding the export of software from an Attorney that is experienced in this area of law? If we'd like to move forward we will need to [1] find a suitable attorney, [2] get an idea of the cost of a consultation [3] determine how we are going to pay for a consultation. I think that this is a very important issue, and I'm willing to put some work into getting it resolved. Do we need to have a vote on it? Or maybe it needs to be approved by the board? Landon Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] Legal Committee
The recent discussions on software export restrictions got me to wondering if we have, or if we should create, a legal committee. This would be a group familiar with patent law, licensing terms, and other legal issues related to geospatial software (like privacy rights, access to publicly funded data, and copyright issues). I'm thinking one of the first goals of such a committee would be to determine what laws and policies the OSGeo needs to comply with in its operations. I don't have a lot of experience with these areas of law, but my training and work as a land surveyor has given me some knowledge of the US legal system. I can read statutes and read and understand most case law. I'd be willing to assist such a committee if there were other interested members and a real need for such work. The committee couldn't offer any legal advice, unless we got a hold of a real lawyer, but we would at least have a group that could work on getting official answers to important legal questions. This is just a suggestion. Landon Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Seeking Recommendations On Software Export FromAn Attorney
Roger that. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frank Warmerdam Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 9:41 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Seeking Recommendations On Software Export FromAn Attorney Landon Blake wrote: Is it possible to move forward with seeking recommendations on OSGeo policies regarding the export of software from an Attorney that is experienced in this area of law? If we'd like to move forward we will need to [1] find a suitable attorney, [2] get an idea of the cost of a consultation [3] determine how we are going to pay for a consultation. I think that this is a very important issue, and I'm willing to put some work into getting it resolved. Do we need to have a vote on it? Or maybe it needs to be approved by the board? Landon, At the board meeting last Friday it was decided to consult with some other organizations, most notably the Apache Foundation, in an effort to define our own policy. We are not planning on seeking legal advice at this time, though we may have to. Best regards, -- ---+ -- I set the clouds in motion - turn up | Frank Warmerdam, [EMAIL PROTECTED] light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam and watch the world go round - Rush| President OSGeo, http://osgeo.org ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo Fundraising
I stole the following snippet from another of Paul Ramsey's posts. I thought it belonged in a separate thread: Paul wrote: Having a plan to take better advantage of our host nation status. We pay a good deal in terms of administrative overhead to be a fully tax-exempt charity in the USofA, what fund raising plans have we linked to that status? Is that status gaining us anything at all, at this point? The only connection I have *ever* heard was Michael Tiemann saying he'd only contribute if he could get a US tax write-off. I've never seen any type of fundraising plan. Do we have one? If we want to take advantage of our tax-exempt status do we have a list of American companies that might be possible contributors and might also be interested in a tax write-off? Do we need to assemble a team to handle fund-raising efforts? After all, I'm sure that Tyler has his hands full with the Journal and other items... Another thing I've been curious about is how any funds raised will be spent or dispersed. I know we need to pay Tyler's salary. What other things do we need to pay for? Do we help fund the FOSS4G conference? Do we fund work/infrastructure for specific projects? I'd like to learn more about this. I think a web page geared towards potential contributors with a concise explanation of how duns are spent would be an aid to fundraising efforts, if we will ever have any. Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Ramsey Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 9:20 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Chickens, Boards and Export Restrictions On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 8:56 AM, Arnulf Christl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But instead, she incarnated in the US, the most backwater place imaginable wrt Open Source. So, this raises two actions items: - Putting our policy online (presumably copied from Apache shamelessly) in a findable location, to conform to the legal norms of our host nation. - Having a plan to take better advantage of our host nation status. We pay a good deal in terms of administrative overhead to be a fully tax-exempt charity in the USofA, what fund raising plans have we linked to that status? Is that status gaining us anything at all, at this point? The only connection I have *ever* heard was Michael Tiemann saying he'd only contribute if he could get a US tax write-off. Both these actions items fall to you, Tyler, could you give us an update? BTW, one of the things at Refractions that made tasking more visible for go do this roles, like the sysadmin, was entering absolutely every request and job into Trac before fulfilling it. Does anyone thing a OSGeo trac would help or hinder? It might get a little stuffed up with irrelevancies, but it would at least raise the visibility of things that need to be done. I assume SAC is already running one of their own? P. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] The Germans and The Brazilians...
I would like to add two (2) brief comments about the issue if American influence in the OSGeo, and the role members from other language groups/nations play in the organization. The first comment is about utilizing the mechanism for local chapters. Perhaps this is a vehicle that members from other language groups or nations can use to accomplish more of their own goals under the OSGeo umbrella? It seems that OSGeo is pretty flexible about the shape that local chapters take. Why couldn't a group in Brazil or Germany form a local chapter of the OSGeo that is incorporated in their nation to pursue not only a common OSGeo agenda, but a local or national agenda as well? They could even incorporate their local chapter in there own country, and thus take advantage of their own tax laws and software export policies. In this sense you get out of the OSGeo what you put into it. My second comment has to do with the role/responsibility we as native English speakers/Americans/Canadians have to reach out to the international community. The reality is that the software world is dominated by the western world and the English language. (How many programming languages do you know of that are written in Russian?) :] As has been mentioned before, there is likely more potential for growth in FOSS4G in developing nations than there is in the Western World, at least at this point in time. This is something we should take advantage of. Perhaps we could have a discussion with our members from outside Canada and the United States to see what there primary concerns are, and what we could do to encourage the growth of FOSS in their part of the world. I will point out that one reason OpenJUMP has been as successful is because of it's support of a worldwide community. This includes great efforts to translate the user interface into other languages and respectfully welcome people from all places. The last time I checked we had participants from Germany, Italy, Spain, Brazil, and even China. Without these international contributors OpenJUMP would be a shadow of its current self. In many ways our European members have carried the program forward from its origins in Canada. Landon Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo Fundraising
Wow! That is awesome work. It makes me wonder if local conferences/seminars might also serve as a fund raising vehicle... Landon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frank Warmerdam Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 9:44 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo Fundraising Landon Blake wrote: Frank, Thanks for posting the budget. It was an interesting read. I was impressed with the fact that the Foss4G conference appears to pay for itself. Landon, It is currently an objective that the conference should make a modest profit for the foundation (I think we targetted 5% of gross revenue as profit). But the Victoria conference, due to great management, sponsorship and attendance made $100K. Best regards, -- ---+ -- I set the clouds in motion - turn up | Frank Warmerdam, [EMAIL PROTECTED] light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam and watch the world go round - Rush| President OSGeo, http://osgeo.org ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
