[OSGeo-Discuss] What's wrong? (was Re: Proposed process for selecting OSGeo charter members)

[Michael P. Gerlek]

I’ve not been following this issue closely, so I just went back through the old 
mails and I’m still left with this rather basic question:

What is the problem that we are trying to solve? What started this movement? 
What in our organization is “broken” that needs to be fixed?

-mpg

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] What's wrong? (was Re: Proposed process for selecting OSGeo charter members)

[Michael P. Gerlek]

(just using my buddy Hobu as a foil here...)

So, the membership process is broken because it is ad hoc, difficult to 
coordinate, and so on? Agreed!

And there are only two benefits to “membership": voting for the board and 
personal PR? Agreed!

The personal PR one doesn’t count for much with me. Anyone putting anything 
like “actively involved in OSGeo” on their resume would get full points from me 
(speaking as a hiring manager type of person).

So, to me, that just leaves the Board election mechanism as the interesting 
question for discussion? Or is there something else about membership worth 
discussing? Unless we’re seriously talking about using membership dues as a 
potential revenue source?

I’m against making our organization any more formal or professional than it is 
now. We’re a grassroots, low-budget, loose affiliation of projects and 
interests. If we’re interested in changing the tone and dynamic of the 
organization, I’d be interested to hear from people as to what we think the 
change direction should be and to what ultimate advantage.

-mpg





On Jun 23, 2014, at 9:51 AM, Howard Butler  wrote:

> 
> On Jun 23, 2014, at 10:16 AM, Michael P. Gerlek  wrote:
> 
>> I’ve not been following this issue closely, so I just went back through the 
>> old mails and I’m still left with this rather basic question:
>> 
>> What is the problem that we are trying to solve?
> 
> OSGeo's membership process is completely adhoc, and it prevents people who 
> wish to be members from doing so. Seemingly, the only two benefits of 
> membership are 1) able to vote for board and 2) able to trumpet to world 
> you're a member. A paid membership doesn't doesn't really change that, but it 
> does help OSGeo in a number of important ways:
> 
> * Our organization would look pretty much exactly like all the other similar 
> professional organizations to the IRS
> * It smoothes out our revenue and provides a floor for things like 
> infrastructure, accounting, insurance, etc which are things a proper org 
> needs but OSGeo often lacks.
> * Anyone who wants to be a member can pay the fee, get the tshirt, and be a 
> member. 
> 
>> What started this movement?
> 
> I don't know that there's so much a movement, but rather a realization by 
> some that the membership process is a bit broken.  To simply let any/all who 
> want to be an OSGeo member has the board-packing concerns brought up during 
> the inaugural organization meeting. 
> 
>> What in our organization is “broken” that needs to be fixed?
> 
> * The CRO's administration of the board vote and membership rolls is a hard, 
> thankless job that ends up suffering the brunt of OSGeo's broken membership 
> process. 
> 
> * People who wish to be members of OSGeo can't simply sign up.
> 
> * OSGeo's purported revenue model of soliciting large donations from private 
> organizations does not match its real revenue model of harvesting income from 
> the FOSS4G conference. 
> 
> Howard
> 

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposed process for selecting OSGeo charter members

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Correct: “membership”, by design at the original founding meeting, was designed 
not to confer ANY rights or distinguishing properties except for the ability to 
vote for board members.

While the election process is pretty messy right now, I view that as a solvable 
problem: I’m still at a loss to understand why we’d want to change anything 
more than that.

-mpg



On Jun 26, 2014, at 2:58 AM, Steven Feldman  wrote:

> If I have understood this procedure correctly:
> 
> The board is voted for by the Charter Members, new Charter Members are 
> proposed and voted for by the existing Charter Members, there may be a limit 
> placed on the number of new Charter Members set by the board.
> 
> Membership of OSGeo does not seem to confer any rights on the member.
> 
> Do we need to review our foundation docs to find a more inclusive procedure? 
> 
> Steven Feldman
> 

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Membership fee (was: Proposed process for selecting OSGeo charter members)

[Michael P. Gerlek]

While I don’t think I’m keen on having professionals foot the bill for OSGeo, 
Dirk is definitely on the right track. His citation of the core principles is 
timely, and I’ll go so far as to repeat it here:

   OSGeo should act as a low-capital, volunteer-focused organization.
   OSGeo should focus support on OSGeo communities and initiatives
   which support themselves.

We’re not like Apache, Eclipse, OGC, or ASPRS. We’re OSGeo, and I’d hate to see 
us drift away from that.

“Membership” should be for everyone and anyone. We do need a means to keep the 
board from straying from those core principles without overwhelming community 
agreement, which today is done by the idea of charter members. I’m open to 
changing the model of keeping the board on the right path, but am not willing 
to go so far as to create any sort membership barriers beyond that one small 
(yet essential) constraint.

-mpg



On Jul 1, 2014, at 9:46 AM, Dirk Frigne  wrote:

> Although I am not so active on the mailing list,  I am an OSGeo's
> advocate, and I take the opportunity to promote OSGeo wherever I can.
> 
> I became an OSGeo member in 2007 because I was proud on what the
> organisation did and I wanted to support it, with the scarce resources I
> own.
> 
> One of the things I appreciate enormously is
> 
> - The organisation is open (as in open source)
> - Becoming a member of the organisation is totally free (*yes* like in
> free beer!)
> - the organisation has a perfect DNA:
>- members can  
>- act as *A* user
>- act as *T*echnical skilled person (sofware developers,
> industry, documentation)
>- work at *G*overmental body
>- member of the s*C*ientific world (academic world)
> 
> In the world of today *free* as in gratis, *free* as in *free* *beer*,
> doing something for
> somebody else is very rare (scarce) that it becomes very valuable.
> Being a part of a community like OSGeo not only is *fun* but also gives
> you a *good* feeling, and it is very motivating to work in a company or
> organisation that supports OSGeo.
> 
> I may be naive, but for me personally this works out well, and having
> that feeling is one of the important incentives to keep contributing to
> the community. (And by the way, working with other members of the OSGeo
> community didn't result in any bad experience until now)
> 
> Of course, an organisation needs money, To support some stuff (.svn or
> whathever goal is worth supporting). But I think we should keep the
> membership *free* (and not as in *free* beer!), because it is in my eyes
> a very essential part of OSGeo:
> 
> "Core principles are:
> 
>OSGeo should act as a low capital, volunteer focused organisation.
>OSGeo should focus support on OSGeo communities and initiatives
> which support themselves. " [1]
> 
> As in DNA, different chains have different roles.
> 
> *G*overnments are happy to have such a movement as the Free and open
> source software [2] movement, because they can avoid vendor lock-in,
> gain control over their projects (read: become free again), and save a
> lot of money. They should take this advantage seriously and sponsor open
> source activities.
> 
> the s*C*ientific world is happy to use open source solutions, because
> they can study the tools themselves and focus on research, not being
> bothered of the licenses they are using.
> They also should take this advantage seriously and donate scientific
> relevant material they don't want to exploit immediately to the community.
> 
> *A*ny user should be free (*not* as in free beer) to use and experiment
> with the results of what the community is producing. The community
> should welcome *A*ny user and help him to find his way, so he can take
> his responsibility and earn respect for what he is doing.
> 
> And last but not least: the *T*echnically skilled persons are the heart
> of the community. Being able to create great teamwork and donate back to
> the community. Also they should take their responsibility and earn the
> respect they deserve.
> 
> But where is the money we need to operate the organisation?
> 
> Personally, I don't think it are the users nor the community members who
> should take care of that. Because the belonging to the community should
> remain a *free* right, where the value comes from respect and the
> intense feeling of giving something without expecting something back.
> 
> The strange thing is that many of the members are also professional
> involved into OSGeo (acting as A T G or C).
> So I suggest it should not be the (community) members who should pay for
> the support, but these professional actors.
> And they (the professional actors) should become a member (in their role
> of incorporation) to support it. But sponsored membership should not
> give rights to vote, or whatsoever. The only thing you gain is that you,
> as a professional incorporation, are happy with an organisation as
> OSGeo, fighting for your rights to be able to use *free* softw

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Board Digest, Vol 94, Issue 24 (actually: president's role in OSGEO)

[Michael P. Gerlek]

On Jul 18, 2014, at 5:31 AM, Jeff McKenna  wrote:

> Although your points make sense, the reality is that the President is
> requested specifically for many things, in person, or on a Skype call,
> writing a support letter, shaking a hand, giving a talk, etc etc.

Those are all things we would all *like* to do, yes, but the reality of
volunteer time available and funding limitations means that we cannot
always do everything we’d like to do.

If we were a Big Organization with Lots of Money, things would be
different, perhaps. But we’re not that, so we need to prioritize.

-mpg

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Gender bias in nominations

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Jo wrote:

> As a female member of OSGeo I don't really feel that my gender matters in the 
> slightest.

Having heard too many sad stories from across the software industry, and having 
seen a couple first-hand, that totally makes my day. We’re doing something 
right, folks.

Thanks.

-mpg

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[OSGeo-Discuss] Call for help -- Emerging Technology Summit IV -- March, DC

[Michael P. Gerlek]

There is a OGC/GITA event (March 21-23, Washington DC) that it would be
nice to have some OSGeo presence at --
http://www.gita.org/events/ETS/ogc_ets.asp

If you are going, or are looking for a reason to go, please  let your
VisCom team know...

-mpg
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[OSGeo-Discuss] Visibility Committee meeting

[Michael P. Gerlek]

The Visibility Committee -- responsible for getting the word out about
our organization, the value of open source, etc -- is having our next
meeting tomorrow.  We will be focusing on setting priorities and budgets
for OSGeo events in 2007.

VisCom is often underrepresented within the OSGeo community, so if you
have any interest or talents to offer, we'd be happy to have your
participation.

http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Sixteenth_VisCom_Meeting

-mpg
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[OSGeo-Discuss] ISDE participation?

[Michael P. Gerlek]

The folks at ISDE5 (http://www.isde5.org) are looking for OSGeo
participation at their event -- San Francisco, June 5-9.

If anyone is planning to attend, interested in presenting, etc, please
let us (VisCom) know.

-mpg
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[OSGeo-Discuss] Call for help with Where 2.0 and OGC

[Michael P. Gerlek]

OSGeo plans to have a booth at Where 2.0, as we did last year, to spread
the word about Open Source solutions in the more cutting-edge geo
spaces.

This year, as part of their effort to reach out to the "mass market" geo
community, OGC also plans to have a significant presence at Where 2.0.
Towards this goal, they are thinking about having a demo there showing
some of the power of open standards.  For example, a demo of a scenario
in which their might be a catalog of services, and show how those
services can be chained together -- think a "mashup of mashups", if you
will, using perhaps a mix of public and private data sources.

OGC would like OSGeo to participate in putting this demo together.
While there may be some closed-source players in the mix, there is
plenty of room in there for the sorts open source solutions that our
projects provide.

On the OGC side, this is being coordinated by Raj Singh, someone who has
an understanding and respect for the OSGeo community and what we're
about.  Raj and I both feel this event would be a good step towards
helping OGC and OSGeo can work together in the future -- something a
number of us have talked about over the past months.

If you're interested in participating in this event, please let me know.
We plan have a phone conference on Feb 13th to begin to organize things,
and in the meantime discussions will be starting on OGC's mass-market
mailing list (open to the public,
https://mail.opengeospatial.org/mailman/listinfo/mass-market-geo).

Thanks.

-mpg
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Call for help with Where 2.0 and OGC

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Well, all we really know at this point is that we'd want to be heavily
using some/all of the core OGC standards: WFS, WMS, WCS, WRS/CSW, and
maybe some GeoDRM on the side.  And GeoRSS too, of course.

If your tools are OGC-happy, then they might be a good fit.

-mpg

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Basques
> Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 6:19 PM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Call for help with Where 2.0 and OGC
> 
> Michael,
> 
> What kinds of things are you looking for specifically?
> 
> I'm part of an Open-Source Javascript Framework set that 
> we've recently 
> let out.  Still putting together some finishing touches to 
> the companion 
> WebSite.  But the toolset might help with what you describe.  Need a 
> little more info though about what you want to do first.
> 
> bobb
> 
> 
> 
> Michael P. Gerlek wrote:
> > OSGeo plans to have a booth at Where 2.0, as we did last 
> year, to spread
> > the word about Open Source solutions in the more cutting-edge geo
> > spaces.
> >
> > This year, as part of their effort to reach out to the 
> "mass market" geo
> > community, OGC also plans to have a significant presence at 
> Where 2.0.
> > Towards this goal, they are thinking about having a demo 
> there showing
> > some of the power of open standards.  For example, a demo 
> of a scenario
> > in which their might be a catalog of services, and show how those
> > services can be chained together -- think a "mashup of 
> mashups", if you
> > will, using perhaps a mix of public and private data sources.
> >
> > OGC would like OSGeo to participate in putting this demo together.
> > While there may be some closed-source players in the mix, there is
> > plenty of room in there for the sorts open source solutions that our
> > projects provide.
> >
> > On the OGC side, this is being coordinated by Raj Singh, 
> someone who has
> > an understanding and respect for the OSGeo community and what we're
> > about.  Raj and I both feel this event would be a good step towards
> > helping OGC and OSGeo can work together in the future -- something a
> > number of us have talked about over the past months.
> >
> > If you're interested in participating in this event, please 
> let me know.
> > We plan have a phone conference on Feb 13th to begin to 
> organize things,
> > and in the meantime discussions will be starting on OGC's 
> mass-market
> > mailing list (open to the public,
> > https://mail.opengeospatial.org/mailman/listinfo/mass-market-geo).
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > -mpg
> > ___
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> > Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> > http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> >
> >
> >   
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[OSGeo-Discuss] Sustainability?

[Michael P. Gerlek]

I'm doing some background research on ties between the concepts of
Sustainability (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sustainability) and Open
Source.  I found a site for one conference last year
(http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk/events/2006-04-10-12/), which I intend to
devour, but would be interested in any other references or experiences
or pointers folks might have -- esp. with a slant towards the Geo side
of the world.

Thanks -

-mpg
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] any suggestion of GIS magazine?

[Michael P. Gerlek]

> I'll make the Open Source community a challenge. If it can produce 
> and deliver a column every month (or every other month), I'll include 
> it in the magazine.

Sounds like a good deal to me... But, to clarify, I'd like to see the
column as being written by different people every (other?) month, to
avoid burnout and such by one single author.

VisCom would happily volunteer to coordinate this.

-mpg (who, by way of full disclosure, has written an
  aritcle or two for GeoConnexion in the past...)


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeff Thurston
> Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 11:49 AM
> To: discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] any suggestion of GIS magazine? 
> 
> Since the issue of Geoconnexion International Magazine has been 
> mentioned, I would like to respond.
> 
> As the editor of the magazine, I will say that the content is very 
> mixed and varied. There are a significant number of articles 
> pertaining to both large and small companies and projects. Topics in 
> recent times have included context mapping, FDO use in software, GML, 
> CityGML, open architectures, standards etc. While we have changed 
> direction, it needs to go further in my view.
> 
> My approach (ie. OGC, Open Source and other similar bodies), has been 
> to find the users, manufacturers and developers of those technologies 
> and support their work through publishing their material. The bottom 
> line being, if it works, helps people and solves their problems, then 
> that is the point, I can say that there are many talented people also 
> doing work that is not wholly open source as well, and a significant 
> portion of them speak about 'openness' a great deal.
> 
> The bottom line is that our magazine stretches throughout Europe, 
> extends into Middle East and Africa and North America as well. It 
> must pay the bills to produce it. I believe we distribute more 
> magazines than any other in Europe.
> 
> I'll make the Open Source community a challenge. If it can produce 
> and deliver a column every month (or every other month), I'll include 
> it in the magazine.
> 
> The topic can be the communities choice, though I retain final editor 
> rights. My suggestion is to revolve your column among the whole 
> community, but it's up to you.
> 
> I welcome your participation.
> 
> 
> Happy reading,
> 
> Jeff
> 
> 
> 
> Jeff Thurston, Editor
> GEOconnexion International Magazine
> Berlin, Germany
> 49.30.24.04.98.90
> www.geoconnexion.com  
> 
> 
> ___
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] any suggestion of GIS magazine?

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Done! -- see http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/GeoConnexion_Column -- so
far we have ChrisH and Dan.
 
Jeff, what sort of word count did you have in mind?
 
It would probably make sense to have the first column be about what open
source means, who OSGeo is, quick bullet list of what projects we have,
etc.  I can cover that one (unless the wordcount is too high :-)
 
-mpg 
 





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Daniel Ames
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 3:00 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] any suggestion of GIS magazine?


Great challenge, Jeff.  The univerisity open source'ers like
myself should be very interested in helping produce a column such as
this. Maybe VisCom could start by creating a wiki page with a table
indicating each month, proposed topic, proposed author, and article
deadline date.  The topic and author columns could be left blank, and
the community could be invited to visit the page and insert themselves
with their proposed topics.  Just an idea... - Dan 


On 2/20/07, Michael P. Gerlek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 

> I'll make the Open Source community a challenge. If it
can produce
> and deliver a column every month (or every other
month), I'll include
> it in the magazine.

Sounds like a good deal to me... But, to clarify, I'd
like to see the 
column as being written by different people every
(other?) month, to
avoid burnout and such by one single author.

VisCom would happily volunteer to coordinate this.

-mpg (who, by way of full disclosure, has written an 
  aritcle or two for GeoConnexion in the past...)


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ] On Behalf Of Jeff Thurston
> Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 11:49 AM
> To: discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] any suggestion of GIS
magazine? 
>
> Since the issue of Geoconnexion International Magazine
has been
> mentioned, I would like to respond.
>
> As the editor of the magazine, I will say that the
content is very
> mixed and varied. There are a significant number of
articles 
> pertaining to both large and small companies and
projects. Topics in
> recent times have included context mapping, FDO use in
software, GML,
> CityGML, open architectures, standards etc. While we
have changed 
> direction, it needs to go further in my view.
>
> My approach (ie. OGC, Open Source and other similar
bodies), has been
> to find the users, manufacturers and developers of
those technologies
> and support their work through publishing their
material. The bottom
> line being, if it works, helps people and solves their
problems, then
> that is the point, I can say that there are many
talented people also 
> doing work that is not wholly open source as well, and
a significant
> portion of them speak about 'openness' a great deal.
>
> The bottom line is that our magazine stretches
throughout Europe, 
> extends into Middle East and Africa and North America
as well. It
> must pay the bills to produce it. I believe we
distribute more
> magazines than any other in Europe.
>
> I'll make the Open Source community a challenge. If it
can produce 
> and deliver a column every month (or every other
month), I'll include
> it in the magazine.
>
> The topic can be the communities choice, though I
retain final editor
> rights. My suggestion is to revolve your column among
the whole 
> community, but it's up to you.
>
> I welcome your participation.
>
>
> Happy reading,
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> Jeff Thurston, Editor
> GEOconnexion International Magazine 
> Berlin, Germany
> 49.30

RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] any suggestion of GIS magazine?

[Michael P. Gerlek]

article 
deadline date. The topic and author columns could be left blank, and 
the community could be invited to visit the page and insert 
themselves with their proposed topics. Just an idea... - Dan

On 2/20/07, Michael P. Gerlek 
<<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > I'll make the Open Source community a challenge. If it can produce
 > and deliver a column every month (or every other month), I'll include
 > it in the magazine.

Sounds like a good deal to me... But, to clarify, I'd like to see the
column as being written by different people every (other?) month, to
avoid burnout and such by one single author.

VisCom would happily volunteer to coordinate this.

-mpg (who, by way of full disclosure, has written an
   aritcle or two for GeoConnexion in the past...)


 > -Original Message-
 > From: 
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 > [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeff Thurston
 > Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 11:49 AM
 > To: <mailto:discuss@lists.osgeo.org>discuss@lists.osgeo.org
 > Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] any suggestion of GIS magazine?
 >
 > Since the issue of Geoconnexion International Magazine has been
 > mentioned, I would like to respond.
 >
 > As the editor of the magazine, I will say that the content is very
 > mixed and varied. There are a significant number of articles
 > pertaining to both large and small companies and projects. Topics in
 > recent times have included context mapping, FDO use in software, GML,
 > CityGML, open architectures, standards etc. While we have changed
 > direction, it needs to go further in my view.
 >
 > My approach (ie. OGC, Open Source and other similar bodies), has been
 > to find the users, manufacturers and developers of those technologies
 > and support their work through publishing their material. The bottom
 > line being, if it works, helps people and solves their problems, then
 > that is the point, I can say that there are many talented people also
 > doing work that is not wholly open source as well, and a significant
 > portion of them speak about 'openness' a great deal.
 >
 > The bottom line is that our magazine stretches throughout Europe,
 > extends into Middle East and Africa and North America as well. It
 > must pay the bills to produce it. I believe we distribute more
 > magazines than any other in Europe.
 >
 > I'll make the Open Source community a challenge. If it can produce
 > and deliver a column every month (or every other month), I'll include
 > it in the magazine.
 >
 > The topic can be the communities choice, though I retain final editor
 > rights. My suggestion is to revolve your column among the whole
 > community, but it's up to you.
 >
 > I welcome your participation.
 >
 >
 > Happy reading,
 >
 > Jeff
 >
 >
 >
 > Jeff Thurston, Editor
 > GEOconnexion International Magazine
 > Berlin, Germany
 > 49.30.24.04.98.90
 > <http://www.geoconnexion.com>www.geoconnexion.com
 >
 >
 > ___
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 > <mailto:Discuss@lists.osgeo.org>Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
 > http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
 >
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo open office (or Word?) template

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Jody-

We do have a presentation template now (currently in-transit to
website), but I don't think anyone has ever asked for a "document"
template before.

I suppose I could whip something up over the weekend (logo and TOC on
front page, etc), but I'm not particularly design-savvy.

Any takers?

-mpg

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jody Garnett
> Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 12:49 PM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo open office (or Word?) template
> 
> Do we have an open office or word template available?  I know we had 
> something for presentations (but the link on this page 
> http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Promotion_and_Visibility_Commi
> ttee) is 
> broken).
> 
> I am wanting to write up a user facing planning document 
> based on this 
> page (http://docs.codehaus.org/display/GEOTOOLS/GTSteering+2007+Q1).
> One answer could be that GeoTools is not through incubation yet :-)
> 
> Cheers,
> Jody
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[OSGeo-Discuss] A VisCom change...

[Michael P. Gerlek]

OSGeo folks:

At this morning's VisCom meeting, I announced that I'm stepping down as
VP/Chair of VisCom -- it's been a great 12 months, but I'm ready for a
change and am looking to do some different things within OSGeo now.

Seems like this is as good a time as any to put out a call for VisCom
volunteers, as the team shuffles around a bit.  We've started to get
some good traction on a few fronts lately, but new blood is always
welcome.  If interested in helping out, come say hi on #osgeo or
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


PS- Thanks to all who've helped me out in this role over the last 12
months.  We've done a lot, I've learned a lot, made a number of new
friends, and am already looking forward to the coming 12 months...

-mpg
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] "Free"

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Hmm.  +1 to Allan, I think.

In judging the worthiness of a talk or workshop, a consideration might be 
"Would this talk be able to find an equally good home at a 'regular' tradeshow 
or conference?"

If the answer is "yes", then perhaps that FOSS4G slot might better be given to 
someone else.

Shouldn't be the only consideration, mind you, but a good one nonetheless.

-mpg


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paulo Marcondes
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 11:37 AM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] "Free"
> 
> 2007/3/2, Allan Doyle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > There are plenty of places Oracle can demo or hold a workshop. There
> > are not so many places developers of Free and Open Source Software
> > can do the same.
> >
> > Let the non-free companies come and learn about FOSS. I'm 
> not sure we
> > have to teach the FOSS developers about non-free software.
> >
> 
> I think I agree with Allan here.
> 
> If Oracle people want to come, they are welcome.
> But I think the time available to them might be better used even for a
> BoFH-like event...(assuming they wilL advertise their own products)
> 
> As for Dave's point, my the whole issue of a foss4g (never been to
> any, wanted to attend last year's) is to put together people that work
> together _AND_ have a strong preference for Free/OpenSource software.
> 
> Paul, as for RMS, while I do not agree all the time with him, we need
> to have the speech/beer issue quite clear at all times. And we have to
> take a stand (at least on a personal basis - mine is speech)
> -- 
> Paulo Marcondes = PU1/PU2PIX
> -22.915 -42.224 = GG86jc
> Debian GNU/Linux = http://rj.debianbrasil.org = http://www.debian.org
> http://www.kombato.org - Seja seu próprio guarda-costas
> 
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] "Free"

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Or just say "OSI-compliant" -- since that's what OSGeo's charter says..?

-mpg

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ned Horning
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 12:12 PM
> To: 'OSGeo Discussions'
> Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] "Free"
> 
> Paul Ramsey wrote:
> > 
> > The term "free" as used by this community is jargon
> > , plain and simple, completely
> > transparent to those in-the-know, opaque to outsiders. The workshop
> > submission is just a clear example of that.
> > 
> Would dropping "Free" and just using "Open Source" in the 
> future make it
> transparent to everyone? 
> 
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: FOSS4G 2007 Workshop Submission

[Michael P. Gerlek]

I've seen a lot of workshops and conferences over the years, both geo
and non-geo: tradeoffs have to be made when organizing these things, and
in the end Paul and his team will not be able to satisfy everyone.

To take just four questions off the top of my head:

  * Would you rather attend 6 half-hour talks covering a
variety of different topics, or 1 three-hour in-depth talk?

  * Would you rather have commercial sponsorship, or leave
it completely independent and self-funded?

  * Would you rather have more space for exhibitors and booths,
or more space for big (100+) talks, or more space for small
(20+) talks?

  * Would you rather have attendees be from the core open source
geo development community, or from the potential user community?

I suspect most of us would answer "some of each" to those questions, and
it is the job of the organizing committee to figure out that balance.
The organizing committee, chosen by a RFP process, was tasked with this
difficult job and they're already deep into it.

Talk has already started about making proposals for FOSS4G '08; I'd
strongly encourage everyone to participate in those discussions.

-mpg 

 




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Daniel Ames
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 8:08 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: FOSS4G 2007 Workshop Submission


Paul and others,

I too was disappointed to be in the 22 of 34 workshop proposals
that were turned down and would like to suggest that the conference
organizers re-think the approach to include more workshops. 

At FOSS4g2006, I found the workshops to be perhaps the most
useful element of the conference.  For a highly technical meeting, the
value of a 1.5 to 3 hour hands-on workshop versus a 20 minute pre-canned
powerpoint presentation can not be overstated.  

Our project (and I suspect many others) has tried to embrace the
concept of the FOSS4g venue as an alternative to hosting our own
separate conference.  Certainly this concept was encouraged by last
year's conference organizers.  However for this to work there needs to
be the opportunity to present our workshops.  

May I suggest the following two changes:

1) Reallocate time for more workshops. 
2) Let the registrants decide which workshops stay.  In other
words, post a list of 34 workshops and keep only those that meet a
minimum number of committed/paid attendee registration fees. 

I suspect that every one of the 22 rejected workshop proposers
could argue that they easily meet all of the four criteria listed here:
http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/FOSS4G2007_Workshops#Criteria_used_by_th
e_workshop_committee_to_review_workshop_submissions

Hence letting the broader community vote with their registration
dollars would seem to be a more "free and open" approach. 

It would be unfortunate to see this as the beginning of a
general culling process where instead of trying to attract new projects,
the FOSS4g community begins to become more exclusionary.

Dan

Daniel P. Ames, PhD, PE 
Idaho State University Geospatial Software Lab

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[OSGeo-Discuss] Google Grants - Free Advertising for Open Source Non-profits

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Hey wow, this sounds like something we could do...?

http://google-code-updates.blogspot.com/2007/04/google-grants-free-adver
tising-for-open.html

-mpg
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGEO & OGC spec development

[Michael P. Gerlek]

A number of us have this same sort of conversation in the past, but we've never 
come up with anything that satisifies all concerned... Perhaps a 
BOF/Summit/Thingie at the conference in September to talk about this?
 
-mpg
 




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeroen 
Ticheler
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 2:12 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGEO & OGC spec development


Hi all, 
Last week I attended the Open Geospatial Consortium Technical Committee 
(OGC-TC) meeting in Paris. 

For those not to familiar with this meeting, it consists of a series of 
Working Group (WG) meetings that mostly run around the development of 
specifications (or standards if you wish) dealing with geo-informatics. The 
most prominent specifications coming from OGC are Web Map Service (WMS), Web 
Feature Service (WFS) and Geographic Markup Language (GML). There's a whole 
list of other specs available or under development. OSGEO projects work with a 
substantial number of them. See http://www.opengeospatial org for more details.

With this email I would like to touch upon two issues that I think are 
relevant to OSGEO. I hope bringing this up can trigger some discussion on how 
OSGEO would best benefit from the OGC spec development process:

1- Discussions related to Google's KML and Web Map Context
2- Discussions related to a Tiled Web Map Service specifications

There was discussion on the possibility that KML becomes an OGC 
specification and, more importantly, that it could be used to replace the 
wining Web Map Context (WMC) specification. A number of OSGEO projects use the 
Styled Layer Descriptors (SLD (symbology)) specification and the WMC. There's a 
great deal of overlap between these and KML. It is likely in the interest of 
these projects to share their experience with OGC and see some of that 
reflected in future OGC specs.

There was also discussion about a new Tiled WMS specification. Such 
spec can have different forms, and could be conceived as a new spec or as an 
extension (or application profile) of a Web Map Service. Two approaches were 
presented and two other approaches were mentioned, among which the approach 
taken within the OSGEO community.

Observing these discussions, my impression is that OSGEO has an 
important role to play in the further development of these OGC specs. We can 
obviously take the easy route and let OGC go its way. We could than come up 
with in-house, open specifications that will compete with OGC specs still under 
development. The development of the specs is likely to be quicker than going 
through OGC. However, I feel that with limited effort by the community we can 
have a very positive influence on the OGC spec development. We can make sure 
experiences in OSGEO are reflected in the OGC specs. The WMS-T is an obvious 
example of this. It was kind of frustrating to not see that experience properly 
represented at the WMS-WG. 

OSGEO is very young still, so frustration is not an expression of 
dissatisfaction in this case :-) rather, I think it might be time to establish 
a way to formally represent OSGEO in OGC. This could be through those OSGEO 
members that already hold a TC level membership to OGC (the logical first step 
I would think) and later possibly through a direct OSGEO TC Membership to OGC. 
Also, we could consider a focal point in OSGEO where specification development 
is discussed and coordinated. This may have the form of a Committee for 
instance. I'm hesitant to propose new Committees, but if there's enough 
interest to have a central coordination point dealing with standards and specs, 
it may make sense :-)

Greetings from Rome,
Jeroen


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Tel: +39 06 57056041
http://www.fao.org/geonetwork
42.07420°N 12.34343°E



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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo Annual General Meeting

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Three big, on-going concerns of mine:

- How to better do "outreach", specifically to companies (GIS or
non-GIS) that either currently don't know much about Open Source or,
worse, think that Open Source is buggy, amatuer-ware, or otherwise
incompatable with their commercial/profit motives.

- Standards work -- influence, development, compliance accredidation,
etc.  With particular, but not exclusive, emphasis on OGC.  [I'm glad to
see this topic come back, good to have other people  interested in the
issue!]

- Funding-- I have learned a lot and now a very different mental model
of OSGeo today than I had 12-18 months ago.  Nonetheless, some funding
is required to better support our activities.  How can we best do this?
Possibilities include: small number of big corporate donations, large
number of small member donations, non-profit style grant monies, ...


-mpg

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tyler 
> Mitchell (OSGeo)
> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 8:33 AM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo Annual General Meeting
> 
> Hi everyone,
> Every year we have our annual conference.  Last year we had one half  
> day set aside for an OSGeo general meeting a day before the  
> conference began.  It worked out very well - especially to start  
> putting faces to names.
> 
> This year we have the opportunity to do the same.  I have a room  
> booked at the conference centre after the workshops on the first  
> day.  There is currently no fixed agenda, but I started to 
> put down a  
> few ideas on the wiki:
> http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/AGM_2007
> 
> If you are interested in helping organise the event or contribute  
> ideas, please feel free to help on the wiki or let's discuss it on  
> this list.
> 
> What would you, as a member of OSGeo, like to have on the agenda?
> 
> Sincerely,
> Tyler
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo Annual General Meeting

[Michael P. Gerlek]

VisCom, about which I used to know something :-), does have policies
about this... Perhaps this would be a good opportunity to present them
to the membership and see if they are sufficient and appropriate for
what people need.

-mpg

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tim Bowden
> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 9:07 AM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo Annual General Meeting
> 
> On Tue, 2007-07-17 at 08:33 -0700, Tyler Mitchell (OSGeo) wrote:
> 
> 
> > What would you, as a member of OSGeo, like to have on the agenda?
> > 
> > Sincerely,
> > Tyler
> 
> How members can take advantage of OSGeo, ie, logo usage for hobbyists
> and professionals.  What rules will govern such usage, what logos are
> available for use?  Generic OSGeo Supporter logos?  Member logos? Can
> they be used on business cards and/or web sites?
> 
> Regards,
> Tim Bowden
> 
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGEO & OGC spec development

[Michael P. Gerlek]

I'd not go so far as to create a list yet -- I'm not sure we know what
we're all looking for at this point.

For example: do we really want "[EMAIL PROTECTED]", or perhaps more generally
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]"?  To my mind, these are two related-but-different,
and equally-interesting, ideas to explore...

-mpg

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lorenzo Becchi
> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 2:15 AM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGEO & OGC spec development
> 
> I guess this thread is pretty hot, there are many sub-threads 
> and maybe 
> a good solution could be to set up a mailing list, for the beginning, 
> as: ogc AT osgeo.org
> Trying to be practical I can offer myself to administer the 
> list as I'm 
> doing with the Spanish Chapter and the Spanish GIS Book.
> 
> There  will be the possibility to define possible actions, 
> participation 
> to OGC meeting, support to OSGeo new standards (as for Tile Map 
> Service), creating or not a Committee ecc ecc.
> I guess we can, as minimum target, set up a lobby of OSGeo 
> softwares to 
> promote effective interoperability of OGC standards.
> 
> ciao
> Lorenzo
> 
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] make software; Let the OGC do the standards sideof it

[Michael P. Gerlek]

While I too have no desire to see OSGeo to become a formal standards
body, I do want us to provide a "safe haven" for future work that could
not be done via OGC (GeoRSS and TMS being two possible past examples).
And by safe haven, I don't necessarily mean a formal committee; what I
do mean is access to diverse community thought, wiki/mailing-list
namespace, development testbeds (likely underneath existing member
projects), etc.

On technical, moral, and financial grounds, there remain good reasons
why OGC is not the proper place for some of the work some of us may do
in the future.

Thus, I'm +1 for "[EMAIL PROTECTED]", which would serve as a
clearinghouse and announce-list for the above (and below) topics.
Subsidiary lists could be created as bandwidth/interest requires, e.g.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

We're probably all saying much of the same things here, and we could
probably quickly draft a wiki page for a statement of principles.
Although I'd love to see more discussion on this, maybe a FOSS4G BOF.

-mpg

 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frank Warmerdam
> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 10:39 AM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] make software; Let the OGC do 
> the standards sideof it
> 
> Jody Garnett wrote:
> > I am rather tempted by this topic - I would love to join a 
> committee on 
> > this topic if it is created.
> > 
> > However I don't think it should be created -
> ...
> > We should stick with our mandate; making great open source 
> software; if 
> > you want to join the standards police there are a couple of 
> options. 
> 
> Jody,
> 
> I am somewhat of your opinion.  I think it would generally be 
> better for
> those interested in OGC and other standards to try to get directly
> involved with OGC if possible.  A variety of companies with developers
> working on our projects are already members.  And there is the $400
> membership option for some.
> 
> There has been some investigation of how OSGeo might liason with OGC
> with the goal of getting some project developers treated as OGC
> members for the purposes of document access, and contributing to
> working groups.  But that has ultimately not been very fruitful.  It
> seems if OSGeo joins OGC the only person the membership would apply
> to is Tyler since he is the only OSGeo employee.  So that is lame.
> 
> We could try for a memorandum of understanding with OGC somewhat
> similar to what they have with ISO *but* that is generally applied
> between standards organizations and we are not a standards 
> organization.
> So I doubt it would be successful.
> 
> I think an OSGeo standards committee could be useful for:
> 
>   o Reviewing standards compliance of OSGeo software packages, with an
> eye towards encouraging more complete and appropriate 
> implementation.
> 
>   o A place for open source developers to share expertise - 
> though there
> are already wms-dev and wcs-dev mailing lists hosted at eogeo that
> are appropriate for those specifications.
> 
>   o A place where open source developers with opinions on 
> specification
> could provide feedback to open source developers involved 
> in OGC.  For
> instance, I'm on the WCS Revision Working Group.  I might 
> announce this
> on the list, seeking feedback and suggestions on WCS 1.2 work.
> 
>   o Occasionally there might be particular positions that 
> OSGeo would like
> to take on particular standards.  This could be a place to develop
> such positions, and pass them through OGC members.  I 
> can't actually
> think of too many cases where this would apply though.
> 
> So, I'd say as a base level this could just be a mailing list, open to
> interested participants.  If we are going to have it formed 
> as a proper
> committee (which has at least some overhead) then it should be because
> we want it to do "real work" with regard reviewing, documenting and
> encouraging standards implementation in our software.  
> Essentially working
> on the OSGeo "standards story".  Also, possibly, if we really think we
> need to take an official OSGeo position on some things, 
> though practically
> a consensus from the mailing list could be taken to the board for
> approval without having a committee.
> 
> What I don't want to do is have OSGeo take on more than a passive role
> in standards development.  So stuff like the WMS-Tiling spec (TMS?)
> occured amoung various OSGeo folks but it wasn't really an 
> official OSGeo
> activity.  I certainly am not keen on developing a lot of 
> "OSGeo standards"
> beyond simple practical stuff we want for interoperability between our
> projects.
> 
> Best regards,
> -- 
> ---+--
> 
> I set the clouds in motion - turn up   | Frank Warmerdam, 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam
> and watch the world go round - Rush 

RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGEO & OGC spec development

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Not all of us are interested in standards development, just as not all of us 
are interested in FundRaising or Metadata or...  I'd much prefer to keep the 
main list for announcements and general topics, not specific threads.

-mpg

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Landon Blake
> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:28 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGEO & OGC spec development
> 
> What if we kept the standards discussion on this general 
> mailing list, but set up a little page on the wiki where we 
> could keep some more permanent notes.
> 
> The Sunburned Surveyor
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of P Kishor
> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 7:18 AM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGEO & OGC spec development
> 
> Lorenzo,
> 
> Might I ask, what will a separate list accomplish that posting on just
> the main OSGeo list won't? Standards are a sufficiently important
> subject that all should be concerned with it, and definitely
> knowledgeable about.
> 
> Managing all these separate lists is becoming a pain in the derrière
> for me. I would rather see and participate in the standards discussion
> right here on the OSGeo discussion list.
> 
> On 7/19/07, Lorenzo Becchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I agree on [EMAIL PROTECTED] (this list will be spammed 
> even before
> > starting... )
> >
> > should we proceed creating the list?
> > does anyone disagree?
> >
> > ciao
> > Lorenzo
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Frank Warmerdam wrote:
> > > Michael P. Gerlek wrote:
> > >> I'd not go so far as to create a list yet -- I'm not 
> sure we know what
> > >> we're all looking for at this point.
> > >>
> > >> For example: do we really want "[EMAIL PROTECTED]", or 
> perhaps more generally
> > >> "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"?  To my mind, these are two 
> related-but-different,
> > >> and equally-interesting, ideas to explore...
> > >
> > > Michael,
> > >
> > > I think it should be a "standards" list, not an OGC list, 
> even though
> > > for practical purposes it will be mostly OGC standards.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > ___
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> > Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> > http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> Puneet Kishor http://punkish.eidesis.org/
> Nelson Inst. for Env. Studies, UW-Madison http://www.nelson.wisc.edu/
> Open Source Geospatial Foundation http://www.osgeo.org/education/
> S&T Policy Fellow, National Academy of Sciences http://www.nas.edu/
> -
> collaborate, communicate, compete
> =
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGEO & OGC spec development

[Michael P. Gerlek]

FYI, later this week at the GeoWeb conference in Vancouver we're having a 
discussion on this hot topic:
 
> Ever wonder why we need standards bodies?  Can we just do it with a Wiki?
> We have open source, why not open source open standards? What about 
> intellectual
> property protection?  Can I afford to belong to a standards body?  Can I 
> afford
> not to? Do standards bodies impede or drive innovation?  How should neo-geo 
> and
> OGC work together?  What are the pitfalls of "going public"?  

I'll be on the panel, as will Carl Reed from OGC.

(Feel free to send me any comments/positions you'd like me to put forward.)

-mpg 

 




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeroen 
Ticheler
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 2:12 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGEO & OGC spec development


Hi all, 
Last week I attended the Open Geospatial Consortium Technical Committee 
(OGC-TC) meeting in Paris. 

For those not to familiar with this meeting, it consists of a series of 
Working Group (WG) meetings that mostly run around the development of 
specifications (or standards if you wish) dealing with geo-informatics. The 
most prominent specifications coming from OGC are Web Map Service (WMS), Web 
Feature Service (WFS) and Geographic Markup Language (GML). There's a whole 
list of other specs available or under development. OSGEO projects work with a 
substantial number of them. See http://www.opengeospatial org for more details.

With this email I would like to touch upon two issues that I think are 
relevant to OSGEO. I hope bringing this up can trigger some discussion on how 
OSGEO would best benefit from the OGC spec development process:

1- Discussions related to Google's KML and Web Map Context
2- Discussions related to a Tiled Web Map Service specifications

There was discussion on the possibility that KML becomes an OGC 
specification and, more importantly, that it could be used to replace the 
wining Web Map Context (WMC) specification. A number of OSGEO projects use the 
Styled Layer Descriptors (SLD (symbology)) specification and the WMC. There's a 
great deal of overlap between these and KML. It is likely in the interest of 
these projects to share their experience with OGC and see some of that 
reflected in future OGC specs.

There was also discussion about a new Tiled WMS specification. Such 
spec can have different forms, and could be conceived as a new spec or as an 
extension (or application profile) of a Web Map Service. Two approaches were 
presented and two other approaches were mentioned, among which the approach 
taken within the OSGEO community.

Observing these discussions, my impression is that OSGEO has an 
important role to play in the further development of these OGC specs. We can 
obviously take the easy route and let OGC go its way. We could than come up 
with in-house, open specifications that will compete with OGC specs still under 
development. The development of the specs is likely to be quicker than going 
through OGC. However, I feel that with limited effort by the community we can 
have a very positive influence on the OGC spec development. We can make sure 
experiences in OSGEO are reflected in the OGC specs. The WMS-T is an obvious 
example of this. It was kind of frustrating to not see that experience properly 
represented at the WMS-WG. 

OSGEO is very young still, so frustration is not an expression of 
dissatisfaction in this case :-) rather, I think it might be time to establish 
a way to formally represent OSGEO in OGC. This could be through those OSGEO 
members that already hold a TC level membership to OGC (the logical first step 
I would think) and later possibly through a direct OSGEO TC Membership to OGC. 
Also, we could consider a focal point in OSGEO where specification development 
is discussed and coordinated. This may have the form of a Committee for 
instance. I'm hesitant to propose new Committees, but if there's enough 
interest to have a central coordination point dealing with standards and specs, 
it may make sense :-)

Greetings from Rome,
Jeroen

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42.07420°N 12.34343°E



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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGEO & OGC spec development

[Michael P. Gerlek]

A few more things:

I had a good chat w/ Sam B. from OGC tonight here at GeoWeb: they are very 
sincere in their desire to find some means by which OGC and OSGeo can work 
together, and are moving in the right direction for this.  Maybe not as fast as 
all of us would like or in exactly the right direction, but the effort is being 
made, they do want to engage with us.  Raj will be key here, I think, as would 
a meeting of the minds in Victoria.

We (Sam and I) also seem to agree that OSGeo makes a good environment for 
prototype / reference implementation work (or perhaps interop, as Allan 
discusses below).  Chris Holmes and TOPP are leading the way on this one.

Another issue that I've been thinking about is "the right to fork".  Let's say 
we have a model whereby a "specification" developed by OSGeo-type folks goes 
into the OGC process to become a "formal" spec (whatever that means).  Let's 
further hypothesize that the OGC members later on make a change to that spec in 
a way that the original OSGeo authors disagree with, or, equivalently, that the 
original OSGeo authors wish to make a change to the spec that OGC is unwilling 
to ratify.  Obviously we'd want to work this out amicably if at all possible -- 
but in the worst case OGC would need to agree to have a non-exclusive license 
to the spec work (whatever that means), such that it could be "forked" by any 
disaffected parties at any time...  This is, of course, the normal open source 
development practice and philosophy.  Sam (unofficially) seemed to feel this 
was not unreasonable.

I don't know what our policy is, but to prevent boring anyone on this topic 
I'll just move for the creation of "[EMAIL PROTECTED]".  Rough charter: "This 
is a discussion list for topics having to do with creation of standards, 
specifications, and related beasties within the OSGeo ecosystem.  This 
includes, but is not limited to, discussions of how to best work with OGC and 
other such bodies.  Note that discussions about issues specific to a given 
standard or spec, e.g. should it be lat/long or long/lat, should be held on 
some other mailing list about that standard or spec; this mailing list is more 
for meta level issues."

Do I hear a second?

-mpg

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Allan Doyle
> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 4:25 PM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGEO & OGC spec development
> 
> 
> On Jul 26, 2007, at 18:08 , Michael P. Gerlek wrote:
> 
> > Sean has a good point: some of the OGC specs have been developed  
> > with relatively few members in the working group, which I 
> think can  
> > tend to lead to inclusion of some obscure feature just because  
> > there's not a wide enough group to object.
> 
> Some pretty odd things get by in the plenary, too. There seemed  
> always to be a general trend towards "if in doubt, keep it in" as  
> opposed to any real efforts to keep things simple.
> 
> I think the testbeds have also become a bit of a liability rather  
> than a benefit. There are too few people working on any given topic  
> and/or the people working on something are spread too thin. Thus the  
> work is often pretty superficial and in the end, hastily thrown  
> together into a demo that is far removed from a true interop style  
> trial of the interfaces. Then the results of the testbed are 
> packaged  
> into specs that tend to get approved pretty easily at the plenary.
> 
> In the end, you need to have a small number of people representing a  
> broad enough view who care passionately about the outcome and who  
> understand the technology well enough to build implementations and  
> evangelize the use of the spec. I don't see much of OGC or ISO work  
> fitting that profile. Interestingly enough, GML actually fits that  
> description.
> 
> I also think that it doesn't matter whether a specification gets  
> developed in a standards body or outside it. If it's any good, it  
> will get used. The notion that "governments like to use ISO 
> specs" is  
> really an excuse. I suspect there was a running web browser 
> on nearly  
> every government desktop computer before HTTP and HTML ever 
> even came  
> close to being IETF or W3C specs. Google Earth showed up in 
> the White  
> House [1] before KML was handed over to OGC and I bet there's not an  
> ISO 191xx spec in sight inside Google Earth.
> 
>   Allan
> 
> [1] http://news.com.com/8301-10784_3-6128904-7.html
> 
> >
> > -mpg
> >
> >
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROT

RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGEO & OGC spec development

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Sean has a good point: some of the OGC specs have been developed with 
relatively few members in the working group, which I think can tend to lead to 
inclusion of some obscure feature just because there's not a wide enough group 
to object.

-mpg

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sean Gillies
> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 10:24 AM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGEO & OGC spec development
> 
> Michael,
> 
> Standards bodies are a good thing if they produce good standards.
> 
> OGC standards tend toward fussy intricacy (compare WFS-T to the Atom 
> Publishing Protocol) and pointless abstraction (all the so-called 
> distributed computing platforms that no one uses). I don't 
> know why, but 
> I suspect that it's cultural (no, I don't mean Canadian 
> culture). Going 
> public has the potential to reform the culture of the OGC.
> 
> Regards,
> Sean
> 
> Michael P. Gerlek wrote:
> > FYI, later this week at the GeoWeb conference in Vancouver 
> we're having a discussion on this hot topic:
> >  
> >> Ever wonder why we need standards bodies?  Can we just do 
> it with a Wiki?
> >> We have open source, why not open source open standards? 
> What about intellectual
> >> property protection?  Can I afford to belong to a 
> standards body?  Can I afford
> >> not to? Do standards bodies impede or drive innovation?  
> How should neo-geo and
> >> OGC work together?  What are the pitfalls of "going public"?  
> > 
> > I'll be on the panel, as will Carl Reed from OGC.
> > 
> > (Feel free to send me any comments/positions you'd like me 
> to put forward.)
> > 
> > -mpg 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeroen Ticheler
> > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 2:12 PM
> > To: OSGeo Discussions
> > Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGEO & OGC spec development
> > 
> > 
> > Hi all, 
> > Last week I attended the Open Geospatial Consortium 
> Technical Committee (OGC-TC) meeting in Paris. 
> > 
> > For those not to familiar with this meeting, it 
> consists of a series of Working Group (WG) meetings that 
> mostly run around the development of specifications (or 
> standards if you wish) dealing with geo-informatics. The most 
> prominent specifications coming from OGC are Web Map Service 
> (WMS), Web Feature Service (WFS) and Geographic Markup 
> Language (GML). There's a whole list of other specs available 
> or under development. OSGEO projects work with a substantial 
> number of them. See http://www.opengeospatial org for more details.
> > 
> > With this email I would like to touch upon two issues 
> that I think are relevant to OSGEO. I hope bringing this up 
> can trigger some discussion on how OSGEO would best benefit 
> from the OGC spec development process:
> > 
> > 1- Discussions related to Google's KML and Web Map Context
> > 2- Discussions related to a Tiled Web Map Service specifications
> > 
> > There was discussion on the possibility that KML 
> becomes an OGC specification and, more importantly, that it 
> could be used to replace the wining Web Map Context (WMC) 
> specification. A number of OSGEO projects use the Styled 
> Layer Descriptors (SLD (symbology)) specification and the 
> WMC. There's a great deal of overlap between these and KML. 
> It is likely in the interest of these projects to share their 
> experience with OGC and see some of that reflected in future 
> OGC specs.
> > 
> > There was also discussion about a new Tiled WMS 
> specification. Such spec can have different forms, and could 
> be conceived as a new spec or as an extension (or application 
> profile) of a Web Map Service. Two approaches were presented 
> and two other approaches were mentioned, among which the 
> approach taken within the OSGEO community.
> > 
> > Observing these discussions, my impression is that 
> OSGEO has an important role to play in the further 
> development of these OGC specs. We can obviously take the 
> easy route and let OGC go its way. We could than come up with 
> in-house, open specifications that will compete with OGC 
> specs still under development. The development of the specs 
> is likely to be quicker than going through OGC. However, I 
> feel that with limited effort by the community we can have a 
> very positive influence on the OGC spec development. We

RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo Board Election Results

[Michael P. Gerlek]

I too agree with Gary & Co.; I don't personally see the need to release
the results, and in
any case the "rules" for this past election were set and should not be
changed retroactively.

If we are interested in looking at geographic distributions -- and,
being geo geeks, who wouldn't be? -- then I'd suggest doing an analysis
of the set of charter members.  We have a statistically interesting
number of them, across three(?) elections, so one should be able to get
some insight into the question of geodiversity over time.

-mpg

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of RAVI KUMAR
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 9:54 PM
> To: discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo Board Election Results
> 
> Hi All,
> I agree with Kishor. Seeing the geographical
> distribution of votes will be relevant.
> Ravi Kumar
> --- P Kishor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Gary,
> > 
> > I was not the person who originally requested this,
> > but I did show
> > interest in this, so I am presenting my reason here,
> > for what they are
> > worth.
> > 
> > Actually, I am not even so much interested in seeing
> > who got how many
> > votes as I am in seeing the geographical
> > distribution of whence the
> > votes came from and where they went... if that could
> > be shown on the
> > map... or, if I can imagine it on a map.
> > 
> > For now, it is heavily weighted in North America and
> > Europe, and
> > rightly so... most of this technology was invented
> > in these regions,
> > most of the developers are from these regions, most
> > of the
> > implementations are in these regions, most of the
> > momentum in these
> > regions. In the long run, I would like to see OSGeo
> > spread its wings
> > on all corners of the globe. I am not trying to
> > hasten this process
> > artificially, but I am interested in seeing the
> > process itself, and
> > see it happen sooner rather than later... imagine...
> > if I could see a
> > time-lapse movie of open geospatial spreading around
> > the world!
> > 
> > For now, I am more interested in seeing where we
> > need to focus more,
> > encourage more activity, perhaps even do some
> > special hand-holding, if
> > required.
> > 
> > That is all of my reasoning. It is not crucial or
> > urgent, and there is
> > no other agenda -- if collectively it is decided
> > that not showing the
> > tally is better, I am cool with that as well...
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On 8/9/07, Gary Sherman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > What purpose is served by displaying the results
> > in this way? I see
> > > absolutely no benefit, other than to create an
> > ad-hoc popularity
> > > contest to see who beat out whom.
> > >
> > > What lessons can be learned from having the tally
> > known? How can it
> > > benefit
> > > OSGeo in future elections? Will it deter people
> > from running in the
> > > future?
> > >
> > > The votes were not posted publicly, we know who
> > won, leave it at that.
> > >
> > > If the final tally by person is made public, will
> > we next ask to see
> > > how each charter member voted?
> > >
> > > This is beyond openness.
> > >
> > > -gary
> > >
> > > (Yes I was a candidate, yes I was not elected, no
> > this has nothing to
> > > do with my position on this issue)
> > >
> > >
> > > On Aug 9, 2007, at 11:20 AM, Frank Warmerdam
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > P Kishor wrote:
> > > >> In the spirit of openness, it would be
> > worthwhile seeing where the
> > > >> charter members thought it best to cast their
> > votes. While
> > > >> embarrassment is a possible consequence, I
> > believe if I were running
> > > >> for a Board member, and if I lost, I would
> > still like to see the
> > > >> votes... I am not interested in seeing who
> > voted for who... I am more
> > > >> interested in seeing the voting pattern as a
> > reflection of the
> > > >> pattern
> > > >> of interest, awareness, and even a need for
> > doing more.
> > > >
> > > > Puneet (and Tamas, Bart, ...)
> > > >
> > > > I don't have a strong opinion on this.  If
> > someone would like to take
> > > > this issue formally to the board I would
> > encourage you to write up a
> > > > position in the wiki and add it as a topic for
> > the next board meeting
> > > > agenda at:
> > > >
> > > >  
> >
> http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Twenty_Eighth_Board_Meeting
> > > >
> > > > If so, I'd ask that you be available to speak on
> > behalf of the issue
> > > > for the next board meeting.  Alternatively, the
> > topic could be
> > > > discussed
> > > > at the AGM at FOSS4G (planned for late on the
> > Monday I believe).  I
> > > > can't seem to find a wiki page about the AGM,
> > though I think one
> > > > exists.
> > > >
> > > > Of course, discussing here is fine too, but
> > ultimately for action it
> > > > is helpful for someone to "carry the ball".  I'm
> > not going to be that
> > > > person given a lack of enthusiasm about the
> > idea.
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > > -

[OSGeo-Discuss] Software standards discussions => new list

[Michael P. Gerlek]

A few weeks ago there was a flurry of discussion about standards-related
stuff, up to and including things like how OSGeo members might work with
OGC.  Since this is an area I know a bit about, and since I've talked to
some OGC folks about it recently, I'd like to see if I
can help us to try and see if we can reach some consensus as to what
OSGeo's goals, interests, and opportunites are.

A mailing list is now up: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  If this sounds
like a subject you're interested in, please subscribe and say hi.

Ideally, as a first step I'd like to see us get a handle the OGC
question.  In what ways do you feel you are restricted from working with
OGC today?  In what ways do you think OGC could benefit from OSGeo
members and projects?  Feel free to jump in and post your ideas /
thoughts / issues, and I'll try to get a wiki page going to eventually
stake out a summary of the collective hivemind.

If there's enough interest, we might get a BOF-like thing in Victoria to
have some live discussion too.

-mpg
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[OSGeo-Discuss] C# / .NET projects?

[Michael P. Gerlek]

OSGeo gets a lot of mileage out of C++ and Java, but I suddenly have an
interest in cutting edge .NET technologies.  [you in the back there,
stop laughing...]

So, I'm looking for open source geo projects that are .NET-friendly,
ideally C# and WPF libraries.  If you have any suggestions, please reply
to me, this list, or this wiki page:
  http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/DotNetProjects

Thanks.

-mpg
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] C# / .NET projects?

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Thanks to all who responded, privately and to the list.

There is more out there than I had realized, which is good to see --
although of course not nearly the level of activity that the C++ and
Java tribes have.

I've put a quick line or two on the wiki for each project that was
mentioned, and I'll update it if I learn anything more.

-mpg

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael 
> P. Gerlek
> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 10:20 AM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] C# / .NET projects?
> 
> OSGeo gets a lot of mileage out of C++ and Java, but I 
> suddenly have an
> interest in cutting edge .NET technologies.  [you in the back there,
> stop laughing...]
> 
> So, I'm looking for open source geo projects that are .NET-friendly,
> ideally C# and WPF libraries.  If you have any suggestions, 
> please reply
> to me, this list, or this wiki page:
>   http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/DotNetProjects
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> -mpg
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] European GIS Code Sprint

[Michael P. Gerlek]

(Reading Andrea's post, I'm reminded of the thread the other day about
OSGeo's "value".  Whatever OSGeo can do to help foster events like this
one, even just by providing a mailing list on which to announce it, is
of great value -- and is easily overlooked.)

-mpg

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrea Antonello
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 2:47 AM
> To: discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] European GIS Code Sprint
> 
> Dear friends, dear colleagues,
> 
> we would like to raise to you all the following proposal of 
> an European
> FOSS-GIS developers meeting by the end of November (kind of follow-up
> of the Canadian Code Sprint in September).
> 
> The event is the 'European GIS Code Sprint' organized as a post-event
> of the SFScon 2007 held in Merano, Italy.
> 
> Planned Dates are: 
> * 16-17 Nov 2007: South Tyrol Free Software Conference 2007
> (http://www.sfscon.it/)
> * 18 Nov 2007 (Sunday): Outdoor GIS data collection for Free data set
> (somewhere in South Tyrol)
> * 19-21 Nov 2007: GIS Code Sprint
> 
> The organisation of the event would be made by the Free 
> Software Center
> in Bolzano.
> 
> The Sprint would mainly have the aim to bring different projects to
> know each other and build up some standard interaction, let the teams
> of each project meet, discuss, design and code together fulltime and
> non-remotely for a few days, and obviously also do some 
> bugfixing. Also
> we would invite power users in order to work on documentation,
> translation and even minor issues.
> 
> In parallel, there would be the desire to collaborate on the 
> creation of
> a free dataset by wandering in an ordered way through a defined region
> of the south tirol with GPS. The dataset should contain as 
> many data as
> possible, as for example the dataset of the grassbook does. Moreover,
> climatic and hydrologic/hydraulic data should be integrated 
> in order to
> support different analyses.
> 
> Time is rather short and we would like to understand how much interest
> there is in such an event and more or less how many developer would
> like to attend. 
> 
> We feel that there is a huge need for a developer meeting that could
> bring together different projects, that really need to 
> interact if they
> want to have a glorious future.
> 
> Please give us possibly soon a feedback by *adding yourself* 
> on the WIKI
> page created for the event: 
> http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/European_GIS_Code_Sprint
> 
> Warmest regards,
> 
> Andrea Antonello
> Markus Neteler
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] How to assess rendering quality?

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Gilles-

Is your idea to measure the quality by having a human look at outputs 
(subjective metrics) or automatically via some analysis routine (objective 
metrics)?

-mpg

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gilles Bassière
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 3:01 AM
> To: discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] How to assess rendering quality?
> 
> Hi list,
> 
> I'm doing a comparative study of OpenSource cartographic servers 
> (Mapserver, Geoserver and Mapnik). Beside raw performance and 
> features, 
> I'd like to assess the rendering quality, say how pretty 
> produced maps 
> are. Precisely, I'm interested in the quality of the drawing work, my 
> point is not about symbology, nor styling of maps.
> 
> I have some problems to find a set of objective criteria I could 
> benchmark my servers against. So far, I have already identified the 
> following:
> - sharpness of details
> - smoothness of lines
> - uniformity of colors
> 
> I'm open to any comments. Do you think these criteria are consistent 
> regarding the purpose of my study? Does anyone have other criteria to 
> suggest?
> 
> Regards
> 
> -- 
> Gilles Bassiere
> MAKINA CORPUS
> 30 rue des Jeuneurs
> FR-75011 PARIS
> http://www.makina-corpus.com
> 
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] How to assess rendering quality?

[Michael P. Gerlek]

All I could add to what Ed and Traian have said is:

- try to keep the tests neutral in all other respects: if you can, you
  want to minimize any indications of what tool the image came from, remove
  extraneous toolbars and scrollbars, etc -- anything subconsciously biasing
  or visually distracting

- the quality (and settings) of the display monitor are very important.  If
  you can, do the tests on the same monitor with the same lighting in the
  room

-mpg

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Traian Stanev
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 7:26 AM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] How to assess rendering quality?
> 
> 
> Antialiasing, when done wrong is just "making the edges 
> intermediate colors".
> 
> When done right it also involves subpixel positioning which 
> improves not only the visual appearance but also the relative 
> accuracy of lines -- i.e. visual weight is most correctly 
> distributed over exact position of the line given the 
> discrete sampling frequency (pixels). There is actually solid 
> scientific basis in that (Niquist-Shannon theorem). 
> "Sharpness of detail" in non-AA lines is fake accuracy.
> 
> Unfortunately antialiasing is also hard to get right, because 
> it depends on gamma correction. For example compare the 
> antialiased output here 
> (http://www.realtimerendering.com/gamma10.png with gamma = 
> 1.0) and here with gamma 2.2 
> (http://www.realtimerendering.com/gamma22.png). They are both 
> antialiased using the same algorithm, yet one looks better 
> than the other.
> 
> Asking people to compare smooth versus sharp will be 
> sensitive not only to the subjective appeal of the picture, 
> but also by the ambient lighting conditions, the gamma used 
> by the AA algorithm versus the gamma of the monitor used for 
> the test, and by whether or not the AA algorithm used 
> subpixel positioning. Also, it depends on whether the image 
> reading application honors the gamma value stored in the 
> image. In addition, you will get "fanboy bias" where people 
> will prefer the output they have seen before. This comes up 
> with things like font glyph rasterization surveys, where 
> people who are more familiar with Macs prefer blurry but 
> correct glyphs while people who use predominantly Windows 
> prefer sharp but deformed glyphs, only because that's what 
> they are used to seeing. So you will need to have lots of 
> questions that ask for the same thing using screenshots that 
> do not say which product they are from. You should also 
> include output from a third party app like Adobe Acrobat. I 
> would also include test questions where the two images being 
> compared are identical.
> 
> 
> 
> Traian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:discuss-
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ed McNierney
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 9:02 AM
> > To: OSGeo Discussions
> > Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] How to assess rendering quality?
> > 
> > Gilles -
> > 
> > Just keep in mind that subjective metrics are, after all, 
> subjective,
> > and some of your metrics are mutually exclusive.  
> "Smoothness of lines"
> > is normally accomplished by antialiasing those lines, 
> making the edges
> > intermediate colors and a little "soft".  This is a good 
> thing, but is
> > incompatible with "sharpness of details", which is best accomplished
> > without antialiasing but with more jagged artifacts on curves and
> > diagonal lines.
> > 
> > - Ed
> > 
> > Ed McNierney
> > Chief Mapmaker
> > Demand Media / TopoZone.com
> > 73 Princeton Street, Suite 305
> > North Chelmsford, MA  01863
> > Phone: 978-251-4242, Fax: 978-251-1396
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:discuss-
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gilles Bassière
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 8:38 AM
> > To: OSGeo Discussions
> > Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] How to assess rendering quality?
> > 
> > Hi Michael,
> > 
> > I'm more concerned with subjective metrics, I actually plan 
> to survey
> > some users. The questionnaire will include some map samples 
> and gather
> > user preference for each criteria. My problem is to identify what
> > questions/criteria should I ask to a user.
> > 
> > Gilles
> > 
> > 
> > Michael P. Gerlek wrote:
> > > Gilles-
> > &g

RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Board Proposal: Statement of OSGeo Legal Support

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Way back on that cold day in Chicago, I'm not sure anyone ever really
thought about what it would mean when we said we'd "offer legal
protection".

Does it imply/lead-to/entail some sort of indemnification?  Ouch, that
would be pricey...  How does the Apache gang, et al, handle this?

-mpg

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Landon Blake
> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 7:56 AM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Board Proposal: Statement of 
> OSGeo Legal Support
> 
> Cameron,
> 
> I think this is an excellent idea, and a lawyer should definitely be
> consulted. I wonder if the legal staff at the Software Freedom
> Conservancy could assist.
> 
> Landon
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cameron Shorter
> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 3:56 AM
> To: OSGeo-Board
> Cc: OSGeo Discussions; Adrian Custer
> Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Board Proposal: Statement of OSGeo Legal
> Support
> 
> OSGeo Board, (CC to OSGeo Discuss),
> 
> During the founding of OSGeo, it was often noted that OSGeo projects
> would benefit from OSGeo legal protection. Now, as Geotools wrestles
> with graduation criteria and how to handle license assignment, the
> nature and level of legal protection offered by OSGeo is 
> unclear. Also 
> unclear is the level of legal review available (as tested by Geotools 
> crafting of a Copywrite Assignment document).
> Consequently, geotools is having difficulty deciding whether 
> it is wise
> to assign copywrite to OSGeo.
> 
> I suspect a large part of the problem is that board members (like
> myself) are not lawyers and don't have a clear understanding of the
> options, the value of each of the options to OSGeo and the 
> projects (how
> much protection is given), and the cost both in time and financially.
> Key questions to answer for each option are:
> * What level of support is given to contributors and license reviewers
> (individuals and companies)
> * What level of support is given to OSGeo users?
> * What level of support is given to projects? Will OSGeo 
> fight a license
> infringer on behalf of a project?
> * What level of support is given to the OSGeo Foundation?
> 
> *Proposal*
> That the board makes a clear statement on their website about 
> nature and
> level of support offered by OSGeo to OSGeo projects and Individuals.
> This statement needs to be backed up with a budget item addressing
> financial implications related to the statement.
> 
> Implementation:
> I suggest the steps to achieve the above would be:
> 1. Board approves budget to have a lawyer, or volunteer with legal
> review, to draw up a list of options and their financial 
> implications. 
> Adrian Custer's review provides an excellent basis for a 
> lawyer to start
> 
> from. http://docs.codehaus.org/display/GEOTOOLS/Geotools+Legal+Review
> 2. Board votes to select best option.
> 3. OSGeo financial sponsors are given opportunity to contribute to 
> decision.
> 4. OSGeo budgets for decision
> 5. OSGeo records the legal stance publicly (on a webpage).
> 
> -- 
> Cameron Shorter
> Geospatial Systems Architect
> Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050
> Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254
> 
> Think Globally, Fix Locally
> Commercial Support for Geospatial Open Source Software
> http://www.lisasoft.com/LISAsoft/SupportedProducts.html
> 
> ___
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> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> 
> 
> Warning:
> Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed 
> against defects including translation and transmission 
> errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are 
> hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or 
> copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you 
> have received this information in error, please notify the 
> sender immediately.
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[OSGeo-Discuss] Call for articles (GeoConnexion magazine)

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Dear OSGeo community:

Our friends at GeoConnexions are running a special issue in Feb with a
focus on "Open Source / Open Geodata" (copy deadline is Dec 14th).

This is a great chance for the Open Data folks -- and the rest of us
Open Code types -- to get some media exposure.

Please contact me if you're interested in submitting something, and I
can provide more details and/or put you in touch with the GeoConnexion
editor.

-mpg

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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: idea for an OSGeo project -- a new, opendata format

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Comment from a back bencher who's somewhat interested in this idea...


+1 to Paolo, just call it OpenShape and let's move on.  The format under
discussion should be known to (1) support shapes and shape-like things
and (2) be a truly "open" format.  "OpenShape" nicely satifies both,
rhymes nicely with things like "OpenLayers", and -- more important of
all! -- as of a few minutes ago openshape.org has not yet been
registered by anyone.

(There are more fun things to debate/argue/discuss than naming...)

-mpg

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paolo Cavallini
> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:10 AM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: idea for an OSGeo project -- 
> a new, opendata format
> 
> Landon Blake ha scritto:
> 
> > I really think you are going to run into problems using the 
> "Shapefile"
> > as part of the trademark or name for any product not sold by ESRI.
> 
> This can be easily be overcome by using "OpenShape".
> I think this is a good idea, as it will make transition 
> psychologically
> smoother.
> pc
> -- 
> Paolo Cavallini, see: http://www.faunalia.it/pc
> 
> 
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: idea for an OSGeo project -- a new, open data format

[Michael P. Gerlek]

> > Regarding the suggestion that MapServer takes on this new format as
the
> > primary format:  I think this is way beyond the scope of what OSGeo
should
> > be doing.

I agree with bitnerd.  If the MapServer team thinks this is a valuable
and worthwhile format, they will adopt it at some point.  It would not
be unreasonable for them to step back and see how thing progresses
before deciding to spend their valuable ergs on it.  The burden is on
the "OpenShape" people to show the idea is worthwhile and meritorious.

(My two cents on the "standards" question: OSGeo is not a standards
organization, but / however / on the other hand / nonetheless one of the
reasons OSGeo exists is to foster such collaborations.  If some people
want to try and develop something new like this, I'm all in favor of
OSGeo offering mailing list and wiki space to help out.  Declaring this
to be a "standard" effort, however, is probably premature in any case --
more useful at this point to see the idea sketched out further, see
who's interested, etc.)

-mpg
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: idea for an OSGeo project -- a new, open data format

[Michael P. Gerlek]

> I find two problems with Shapefiles -- one, that it is not in public
> domain (I am not even sure of what licensing there is on it), and
> while ESRI is not likely to pull a Unisys on us, it just is
> philosophically better to free if possible. 

I don't see this as an issue at all -- legally speaking I don't think
ESRI has any grounds to attack anyone for using or implementing the
Shapefile format.  (and from a market standpoint too, it'd be a bad move
for them...)

> The second, more major
> problem is Shapefile's antiquated data technology. DBF is a royal pain
> in the derierre with its 10 char column name, no relational tables, no
> indexing of data constraints. The geometry part of Shapefiles seems to
> be pretty good and adequate; it is the data part that is the problem.

This, though, is more interesting.  There are some things in the
shapefile format that limit me today, and so I'm interested in
alternatives.

-mpg
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[OSGeo-Discuss] Podcasts?

[Michael P. Gerlek]

A colleague asks: are there any good GIS-related podcasts (open source
or not) out there?

Suggestions?

-mpg
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted

[Michael P. Gerlek]

(We've actually discussed this once before, I think, very early on.  How
time flies.)

>From my perspective, as a hypothetical seeker of employees, I want to
reach as many people as possible: to wit, *everyone* is subscribed to
the Discuss list, but only a small subset would be subscribed to the
Jobs list.  That is, you have to know the job list exists first, and
then you have to actually subscribe... and many of the people I would
want to reach aren't subscribed because they don't think they need a new
job yet...

Back in the day, when I was on a different career path, comp.compilers
had an enlightened policy for this.  (It was a moderated list, but the
idea still holds.)  Every N weeks, the moderator would post a single
mail with a summary of jobs offered / jobs wanted.  In this way, the
mails were low volume and also easily filtered out.

No reason we couldn't play the same game for things like press releases.

-mpg



> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Landon Blake
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 3:46 PM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted
> 
> I wonder if the wiki would be a more appropriate place for 
> job postings?
> That would cut down on the spam. We could post the job openings there
> and delete them after a few weeks. That way a job posting wouldn't get
> buried in other e-mails.
> 
> Landon
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frank Warmerdam
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 1:12 PM
> To: OSGeo
> Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted
> 
> Folks,
> 
> The OSGeo Service Provider Directory was implemented in response to
> frequent questions I have received from folks trying to find a
> consultant
> or integrator they could contact for implementing foss4g solutions.
> 
> Today (and certainly not for the first time) I received an email from
> someone trying to find potential employees with skills in a variety of
> OSGeo projects.  My question is whether there is something we 
> can do to
> address this need - and the corresponding need for folks who 
> would like
> to find potential jobs that would take advantage of their foss4g
> knowledge and interest.
> 
> Would it be acceptable to have job postings on this list?   Should we
> try and setup a job postings / job wanted mailing list?  Would it be
> likely to get enough subscribers and postings to make this 
> worth while?
> 
> I think of this as closely related to the recent issue about 
> announcing
> foss4g related products and services.  There are folks who 
> want to know
> and folks who need to get their message out.  But how do we put them
> together in a way that is likely to get a critical mass?
> 
> Basically - it helps our goal of foss4g uptake to ensure that 
> folks can
> make these commercial / employment contacts.
> 
> Best regards,
> -- 
> ---+--
> --
> --
> I set the clouds in motion - turn up   | Frank Warmerdam,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam
> and watch the world go round - Rush| President OSGeo,
> http://osgeo.org
> 
> ___
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> 
> 
> Warning:
> Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed 
> against defects including translation and transmission 
> errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are 
> hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or 
> copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you 
> have received this information in error, please notify the 
> sender immediately.
> ___
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> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> 
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Does Open Source need a supervisory government body?

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Bruce-
 
Without having seen the sentences on either side of the one you quote, I
think I'd argue that the author is not wrong in his statement: is not
what we here call a PSC, and indeed the OSGeo Foundation itself, an
embodiment of "some form of central authority"?
 
..which is not to say your own arguments are wrong, obviously -- it just
may be that you're reading something stronger into what the author
actually had in mind?
 
-mpg
 





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 12:43 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Does Open Source need a supervisory
government body?



IMO: 


Sorry for the inflamatory subject heading. I'm hoping to get a
few bites with my fishing... 



I'm currently reviewing a high level government strategy paper
(in draft) and intend submitting a formal response. 

I'd like to see some discussion on the subject by my respected
colleagues prior to making the submission. 


The gist of the comment in the draft strategy is something like:


"Open Source approaches to software development will be most
effective if some form of central authority undertakes the role of
verifying contributions and providing quality control." 




My initial reaction and response to this is something like: 

"This is a misreading of how Open Source works. 

Successful Open Source Projects typically have software of
superior quality. This is usually due to there being many developers who
have access to the software for QA purposes. 

Any attempt to impose a central authority from outside of Open
Source projects would be rebuffed vigorously and result in a probably
irrepairable relationship between that party and the project(s)
involved. 

The most successful centralised Open Source authority is
probably the Apache Foundation (http://www.apache.org/) which is behind
a wide range of projects including the Apache Web Server, probably the
most widely used Web Server on the Internet. The Foundation pioneered
the concept of 'Meritocracy', where people earn respect and are given
greater responsibility for projects based on their past contributions
and 'merit'. The Foundation grew from within the Project. It was not
imposed on the Project. They have developed an enviable reputation for
spawning, incubating and fostering robust Open Source Projects that
routinely produce high quality software. 

Nearly two years ago, an organisation called the Open Source
Geospatial Foundation (OSGEO,  http://www.osgeo.org/) was formed based
on the Apache ethos, to provide similar support for Open Source Spatial
applications. They currently have a number of prominent spatial projects
in Incubation with a number of other equally capable projects waiting
for the next vacancy for incubation." 


OK, over to you. I'm interested in all points of view on this
issue. 


Bruce Bannerman 







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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted

[Michael P. Gerlek]

+1 to Frank (as usual...) -- the more overhead we put into this, the
less likely it will be sustainable.

Pick a mailing list -- either Discuss or a new one -- and I think we've
already got at least two volunteer moderators.

-mpg

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frank Warmerdam
> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 8:28 AM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted
> 
> 
> Folks,
> 
> I have attempted to summarize some of the suggestion in the 
> wiki and my
> intent going forward is to at least post an "advice on 
> finding / filling
> jobs" page to the web site eventually.
> 
>http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Jobs_Board
> 
> Setting up a mailing list would be possible if we have a volunteer to
> moderate.  Setting up custom "job board" software would also 
> be possible
> given enough volunteer availability.  But I'm inclined to start with a
> "low overhead" approach and possible scale up if there is sufficient
> interest.
> 
> Thanks for the great feedback!
> 
> Best regards,
> -- 
> ---+--
> 
> I set the clouds in motion - turn up   | Frank Warmerdam, 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam
> and watch the world go round - Rush| President OSGeo, 
> http://osgeo.org
> 
> ___
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Erp, in my initial proposal I was referring to using the discuss list as
the venue, with the "moderator" being a human to whom job-related emails
are submitted for vetting (and subsequent biweekly posting).

-mpg

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Landon Blake
> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 2:08 PM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted
> 
> I'm not sure about this Lorenzo. I think Frank Wammerdam said that he
> would take care of setting up the mailing list.
> 
> I think it should be fairly easy to add you as a moderator.
> 
> Landon
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lorenzo Becchi
> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 2:09 PM
> To: OSGeo Discussions; System Administration Committee 
> Discussion/OSGeo
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted
> 
> Landon, hi
> I guess that moderation should be made through mailman system
> am I wrong?
> 
> "The list moderators have more limited permissions; they are 
> not able to
> 
> change any list configuration variable, but they are allowed 
> to tend to 
> pending administration requests, including approving or 
> rejecting held 
> subscription requests, and disposing of held postings. Of course, the 
> list administrators can also tend to pending requests."
> 
> 
> I think we should ask SAC (in CC) to kindly make a mailing 
> list and set 
> our 3 e-mail addresses as moderators.
> 
> can this mail be considered a request to SAC?
> otherwise I'll do it via Trac
> 
> ciao
> lorenzo
> 
> 
> 
> Landon Blake wrote:
> > I think we've got three people to moderate a mailing list. 
> I think we
> > should move forward with that.
> >
> > I'll tackle the wiki page if there are no objections. People
> interested
> > in posting their job and/or resume on the wiki page could contact me
> > directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Let me know if there are any objections to this. If there are no
> > objections, then I will set up the wiki pages.
> >
> > Landon
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Michael P. Gerlek [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 11:32 AM
> > To: Frank Warmerdam; Landon Blake
> > Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted
> >
> > I've no interest in maintaining a wiki page -- but I'd be 
> happy to own
> > the occasional (biweekly) summary emails pointing to the wiki.
> >
> > Landon?
> >
> > -mpg
> >
> >  
> >
> >   
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Frank Warmerdam [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> >> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 12:18 PM
> >> To: Michael P. Gerlek; Landon Blake
> >> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted
> >>
> >> Michael P. Gerlek wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Umm, me and Landon, I think.
> >>>
> >>> -mpg
> >>>
> >>>  
> >>>
> >>>   
> >>>> -Original Message-
> >>>> From: Frank Warmerdam [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> >>>> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 11:22 AM
> >>>> To: Michael P. Gerlek
> >>>> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted
> >>>>
> >>>> Michael P. Gerlek wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>>> +1 to Frank (as usual...) -- the more overhead we put 
> >>>>>   
> >> into this, the
> >> 
> >>>>> less likely it will be sustainable.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Pick a mailing list -- either Discuss or a new one -- and I 
> >>>>>   
> >>>> think we've
> >>>> 
> >>>>> already got at least two volunteer moderators.
> >>>>>   
> >>>> Michael,
> >>>>
> >>>> Who were these 'at least two volunteers'?
> >>>> 
> >> Landon,
> >>
> >> Is Michael right that you were willing to participate as an 
> >> "OSGeo Jobs"
> >> moderator of some sort?
> >>
> >> Michael / Landon,
> >>
> >> Assuming so, I'd like as much as possible to turn this topic 
> >> over to the
> >> two of you to pursue.  I'm happy to prepare a mailing list 
> >> for

RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted

[Michael P. Gerlek]

On irc we've just worked out the following schema:

* We will set up a jobs list, to which anyone can subscribe - expected
to be low volume, but nonethess moderated by the troika of ominoverdi,
Landon, and/or mpg

* We will set up a Wiki page, owned & maintained by Landon, which will
shadow the jobs mailing list (or the list will shadow the wiki,
whatever)

* We will send a "best of" message to the discuss list biweekly,
containing a summary of current jobs offered / jobs wanted for the
period


Comments?



-mpg

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael 
> P. Gerlek
> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 2:13 PM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted
> 
> Erp, in my initial proposal I was referring to using the 
> discuss list as
> the venue, with the "moderator" being a human to whom 
> job-related emails
> are submitted for vetting (and subsequent biweekly posting).
> 
> -mpg
> 
>  
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Landon Blake
> > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 2:08 PM
> > To: OSGeo Discussions
> > Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted
> > 
> > I'm not sure about this Lorenzo. I think Frank Wammerdam 
> said that he
> > would take care of setting up the mailing list.
> > 
> > I think it should be fairly easy to add you as a moderator.
> > 
> > Landon
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lorenzo Becchi
> > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 2:09 PM
> > To: OSGeo Discussions; System Administration Committee 
> > Discussion/OSGeo
> > Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted
> > 
> > Landon, hi
> > I guess that moderation should be made through mailman system
> > am I wrong?
> > 
> > "The list moderators have more limited permissions; they are 
> > not able to
> > 
> > change any list configuration variable, but they are allowed 
> > to tend to 
> > pending administration requests, including approving or 
> > rejecting held 
> > subscription requests, and disposing of held postings. Of 
> course, the 
> > list administrators can also tend to pending requests."
> > 
> > 
> > I think we should ask SAC (in CC) to kindly make a mailing 
> > list and set 
> > our 3 e-mail addresses as moderators.
> > 
> > can this mail be considered a request to SAC?
> > otherwise I'll do it via Trac
> > 
> > ciao
> > lorenzo
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Landon Blake wrote:
> > > I think we've got three people to moderate a mailing list. 
> > I think we
> > > should move forward with that.
> > >
> > > I'll tackle the wiki page if there are no objections. People
> > interested
> > > in posting their job and/or resume on the wiki page could 
> contact me
> > > directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > > Let me know if there are any objections to this. If there are no
> > > objections, then I will set up the wiki pages.
> > >
> > > Landon
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Michael P. Gerlek [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 11:32 AM
> > > To: Frank Warmerdam; Landon Blake
> > > Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted
> > >
> > > I've no interest in maintaining a wiki page -- but I'd be 
> > happy to own
> > > the occasional (biweekly) summary emails pointing to the wiki.
> > >
> > > Landon?
> > >
> > > -mpg
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > >   
> > >> -Original Message-
> > >> From: Frank Warmerdam [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > >> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 12:18 PM
> > >> To: Michael P. Gerlek; Landon Blake
> > >> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Job Postings / Job Wanted
> > >>
> > >> Michael P. Gerlek wrote:
> > >> 
> > >>> Umm, me and Landon, I think.
> > >>>
> > >>> -mpg
> > >>>
> > >>>  
> > >>>
> > >>>   
> > >>>> -Original Message-
> > >>>> From: Frank Warmerdam [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > >>>> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 11:22 AM
> > >

[OSGeo-Discuss] GeoWeb 2008 CFP & student competition ($$$!)

[Michael P. Gerlek]

The deadline for papers for GeoWeb 2008 is March 7th:
http://www.geoweb.org/cfp-08.asp

Having been involved with this conference for several years, I find it
yields a nicely different set of offerings than the "usual" fare.  This
year, the focus is very much on GIS infrastructures -- both
"information" and "physical" infrastrucutres.  (And, the venue is great
too: Vancouver BC in the summer is glorious...)


This year there is also a student competition for best technical
contributions, likely with significant cash prizes:
http://www.geoweb.org/student_contest.asp


As a member of the program committee, I strongly encourage members of
the open source community to submit papers, both students and otherwise.
I see a good fit for projects that show the value in using and combining
OS systems into existing or new infrastructure ecosystems.


If any questions, feel free to contact me directly.


-mpg
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Planet OSGeo

[Michael P. Gerlek]

> Perhaps we could mark out who on the planet is a Charter Member.

"Charter members" aren't special in any way with respect to blogging, so
I don't think it is a useful distinction to make.

-mpg



 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mateusz Loskot
> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 11:46 AM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Planet OSGeo
> 
> Lorenzo Becchi wrote:
> > Mateusz Loskot wrote:
> >> ...
> >>
> >> The OSGeo Community is pretty open and there is no formal 
> membership - 
> >> everybody invloved in FOSS4G initiavites is allowed to 
> call herself an 
> >> OSGeo member. So, in the OSGeo Planet idea, everybody involved in 
> >> FOSS4G is welcome to add her blog to the Planet, without any 
> >> artificial requirements ("post about FOSS4G or do not post 
> at all").
> >>
> >> However, I'd limit the OSGeo Planet to people who are involved in 
> >> OSGeo activities in some way (users, speakers, developers, 
> translators,
> >> any other contributors). Just to keep some orientation to 
> the OSGeo 
> >> world. 
> > 
> > 
> > what about just Charter Members?
> > will it be just "boaring" because of we "the Charter Members"?
> 
> Personally, I'm not sure about that, but I'd prefer to leave that 
> decision to the Community.
> Perhaps we could mark out who on the planet is a Charter Member.
> 
> Cheers
> -- 
> Mateusz Loskot
> http://mateusz.loskot.net
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[OSGeo-Discuss] Biweekly OSGeo jobs wanted/offered summary

[Michael P. Gerlek]

As of today, only one job is being offered:

  * Tyler Technologies: Java Developer  (posted 4 Feb 2008)

See [2] for details.


[Every two weeks or so, we will post a single message to the OSGeo
discuss list of summarizing the OSGeo-related jobs offered/wanted
currently listed on the Jobs Board [1] and on the jobs mailing list [2].
The subject title will always be "Biweekly OSGeo jobs wanted/offered
summary", so feel free to filter based on that if you wish.  We'll try
this for a few months and see if we can get some traction for the idea.
Questions and comments about the jobs list, or specific jobs offered,
should go to the jobs mailing list or the jobs list overseers.  Please
do NOT reply to the discuss list about jobs postings.]

[1] http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Jobs_Board
[2] http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs


-mpg
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[OSGeo-Discuss] Biweekly OSGeo jobs wanted/offered summary

[Michael P. Gerlek]

As of today, only one job is being offered:

  * Tyler Technologies: Java Developer  (posted 4 Feb 2008)

See [2] for details.


[Every two weeks or so, we will post a single message to the OSGeo
discuss list of summarizing the OSGeo-related jobs offered/wanted
currently listed on the Jobs Board [1] and on the jobs mailing list [2].
The subject title will always be "Biweekly OSGeo jobs wanted/offered
summary", so feel free to filter based on that if you wish.  We'll try
this for a few months and see if we can get some traction for the idea.
Questions and comments about the jobs list, or specific jobs offered,
should go to the jobs mailing list or the jobs list overseers.  Please
do NOT reply to the discuss list about jobs postings.]

[1] http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Jobs_Board
[2] http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs


-mpg
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OS Spatial environment 'sizing' + Image Management

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Interesting thread...  A couple points from the sidelines:

My company sells a store-your-images-in-a-database product, for storing
JPEG 2000 and MrSID imagery; there are indeed people who see value in
using a DB to manage their raster assets.

Our product is not open source, but when using it with JPEG 2000 images
it *is* designed around the appropriate JP2 standards for storing the
data.  Very loosely speaking, it uses JP2's internal tiling scheme and
each such tile is stored as a blob.  Each band can be stored separately,
for the sort of workflows you describe.  (Also, note that "wavelet" does
not necessarily imply "lossy" anymore, as many assume.  Story of my
life.)

The whole
how-do-I-do-an-image-processing-workflows-across-a-chain-of-servers
thing keeps me up at night, esp. the points you bring up below (eek,
tile boundaries!).  I think WPS is "moving slower" for a few reasons:
OGC specs proceed at a deliberate pace, there are (relatively) few
people involved in WPS, and -- most importantly to me -- the workflows
are still not well understood enough to have a critical mass of people
pushing for a baseline functionality set.

-mpg

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Randy George
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 7:38 AM
> To: 'OSGeo Discussions'
> Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OS Spatial environment 'sizing' 
> + Image Management
> 
> Hi Ivan and Bruce,
> 
>   Interesting, other than using JAI a bit on Space 
> Imaging data (this
> was awhile back) I have been mostly using vectors.
> 
>   I am curious to know what advantage an arcSDE/Oracle stack would
> provide on image storage. I had understood imagery was simply 
> stored as
> large blob fields and streamed in and out of the DB where it is
> processed/viewed etc. The original state I had understood was 
> unchanged
> (lossy, wavelet, pk or otherwise happening outside the DB), 
> just residing in
> the DB directory rather than the disk hierarchy. Other than 
> possible table
> corruption issues I imagined that the overhead for streaming 
> a blob into an
> image object was the only real concern on DB storage.
> 
> But I'm getting the idea that something a bit more is going 
> on. Does the
> image actually get retiled (celled) and then stored in 
> multiple fields? Is a
> multispectral broken into bands first before storing in 
> separate fields?
> CHIP sounds more like an additional database function to 
> optimize chipping
> inside a DBTable so that an entire image doesn't have to be 
> read just to
> grab a small viewbox. Does arcSDE add similar functions to 
> the base DB or
> does it just grab out an image and chip, threshold, 
> convolute, histogram,
> etc after the fact?
> 
> I'm just curious since I've been fascinated with the prospects of
> hyperspectral imagery.
> 
> >From an AWS perspective very large imagery would need some 
> type of tiling
> since there is a 5Gb limit on S3 objects. Larger objects are 
> typically tar
> gzipped and split before storage. It is hard to imagine a 
> tiling scheme that
> large anyway. For example Google's Digital Globe tiling pyramid uses
> miniscule tiles at 256x256 compressed to approx 18kb/tile
> http://kh.google.com/kh?v=3&t=trtsqtqsqqqt
> http://www.cadmaps.com/gisblog/?p=7
> 
> >From a web perspective analysis could proceed along a highly 
> tiled approach.
> So the original 70Gb image becomes a tiled pyramid with the 
> browser view
> changing position inside the image pyramid. Small patches 
> flow in and out of
> the view with each zoom and pan. Analysis, WPS, adds some 
> complexity since
> things like convolution algorithms need to be rewritten to 
> take into account
> tile boundaries. Or, alternatively the viewbox is re-mosaiced 
> before running
> a server side convolution that is subsequently streamed back 
> to the browser
> view, not extremely fast. Hyper-spectral bands would reside 
> in separate tile
> pyramids so that Boolean layer operations could proceed 
> server side for
> viewing at the browser. Analysis really can't take advantage 
> of predigested
> read only schemes like Google's since the whole point is to create new
> images from combinations of image bands. Consequently WPS 
> seems to be moving
> slower than WMS, WCS, WFS
> 
> Thanks
> Randy


[snip]
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] 'lossless' JPEG2000

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Bruce-
 
It is not clear to me what sort of "study" you would need to convince
you, as the ISO standard for encoding data into the JPEG-2000 file
format is by construction mathematically and numerically lossless
process.  (Indeed, "compression", i.e. throwing away bits so as to
further reduce storage requirements, is actually not defined within the
scope of the standard.)
 
-mpg
 





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 1:58 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] 'lossless' JPEG2000



IMO: 

Thanks for the reply Traian, 


I don't mean to be dismissive of this report, but I was hoping
for something more definitive to prove that 'lossless' JPEG compressions
did indeed protect the integrity of the data.. 

Perhaps its just my ignorance, but I was hoping for something
along the lines of: 

- a study of a range of typical spatial 'imagery'. 

- evaluation of all spectral values for each pixel in each image
before compression. 

- 'lossless' compression  of the images 

- restoration of the compressed images 

- comparison of all spectral values for each pixel in each
restored image against the original pre-compressed values. 

- definitive statement with reference to the study results. 


Bruce 


>   
> JPEG2K supports lossless via a reversible wavelet transform
with 
> integral coefficients (which make it reversible, and so
lossless). 
> Here is a reference: 
>   
> http://www.ece.uvic.ca/~mdadams/publications/pacrim2001.pdf 
>   
>   
>   
> Traian 
>   







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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] 'lossless' JPEG2000

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Bruce-
 
Again, I'm not sure how to convince you of this...  JP2 is inherently
lossless just like GeoTIFF is; what arguments do you / would you find
persuaive to use GeoTIFF?  (alternatively, what do you use now that you
trust?)
 
[feel free to take this to private email, this is probably a bit
esoteric for the rest of the OSGeo crowd]
 
-mpg
 




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 2:19 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] 'lossless' JPEG2000



IMO: 


Michael, 

My concern as a custodian of significant image resources is to
ensure that the integrity of this data is protected and available for
future analytical use by ourselves and by the public. 

As an example, to conduct multi-temporal analysis of 'imagery'
to help understand big picture issues such as climate change. 




I understand that wavelet compressions such as MrSid and ecw are
lossy compressions and JPEG 2000 can be 'lossless', or as often occurs,
lossy. 



I'm currently seeing proposals to the effect: 

- wrt imagery, most people only want to look at pretty pictures 

- therefore we'll compress our imagery via wavelet compression
and save a lot of disk space and ongoing SAN costs by backing up the
source imagery to tape. Noone uses it anyway. 



I've been around long enough to expect problems from tape
backups, and to not expect my data to be there when I request a restore.


I can also see an increasing need for image analysis for big
picture issues such as climate change and water shortage (in Australia).



Therefore, naiave as it is, I want to be 'convinced' that our
data is protected for future use before agreeing to such potentially
irreversible proposals. 



Bruce 




[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 24/02/2008 08:44:25 AM:

> Bruce- 
>   
> It is not clear to me what sort of "study" you would need to 
> convince you, as the ISO standard for encoding data into the 
> JPEG-2000 file format is by construction mathematically and 
> numerically lossless process.  (Indeed, "compression", i.e.
throwing
> away bits so as to further reduce storage requirements, is
actually 
> not defined within the scope of the standard.) 
>   
> -mpg 
>   



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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] 'lossless' JPEG2000

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Yup: Kakadu is not Open Source, as per the OSI definition of the term.
The only FOSS package I know of is OpenJpeg2000 (or something like
that); unfortunately, however, it is not suitable for geo-sized imagery
last time I looked.



Not a week goes by that I do not pause, look out my window, and sigh
quietly over this issue.

Economic realities are such that doing an open JP2 codec for geo folks
would be tough.  Kakadu is "good enough" and "cheap enough" for us
commercial types, which disincentivizes a free version.  Furthermore,
every six months Kakadu comes out with a new release, and the gap widens
further.

Yes, an open version might serve to widen the overall JPEG 2000
marketspace -- but that's not a sure enough thing to merit commercial
people investing money in.

Someday I'd like to try and open a dialog with the OpenJP2 developers
about this topic, but last I heard they were completely uninterested in
supporting GB-sized datasets.



(LZW tiffs are a reasonable option, as they are lossless and the LZW
patent issues have faded into the sunset.)

-mpg

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> Christopher Schmidt
> Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 10:18 AM
> To: discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] 'lossless' JPEG2000
> 
> On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 09:27:22AM -0800, Michael P. Gerlek wrote:
> > Bruce-
> >  
> > Again, I'm not sure how to convince you of this...  JP2 is 
> inherently
> > lossless just like GeoTIFF is; what arguments do you / 
> would you find
> > persuaive to use GeoTIFF?  (alternatively, what do you use 
> now that you
> > trust?)
> 
> I'm late in the game (having been in the Caymans all last week), but I
> find JP2 more difficult than GeoTIFF simply because the open source
> tools for working with JP2 through GDAL seem to be 
> significantly flawed.
> The Kakadau (I think?) JP2 library seems to resolve a lot of this, but
> the end result is not an Open Source tool, so far as I'm aware: this
> matters more in terms of my personal (non-commercial) projects like
> OpenAerialMap, where I can't take a GeoTIFF, reencode it to 
> JP2, and use
> that as my base imagery for 'free', either libre or gratis.
> 
> I have had some success with JPG-compressed GeoTIFFs, but these are
> lossy, and that causes problems (obviously): uncompressed GeoTIFFs are
> also problematic due to their raw size.
> 
> (This answer to the question may be irrelevant, as I'm 
> jumping in in the
> middle of the thread. If so, I apologize.)
> 
> Regards,
> -- 
> Christopher Schmidt
> Web Developer
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] 'lossless' JPEG2000

[Michael P. Gerlek]

François:

When you say "Mega-Images (-> geo-sized images)", just how big are you talking 
about?

If you are in the 10-100GB range, I/LizardTech would be very interested in 
talking with you about the project, and also about supporting some of the geo 
metadata conventions.  (Especially if you can do GB-sized data sets in less 
than 1GB of RAM without requiring the image be tiled!)  ((Do you have any 
benchmark data you can share?)

-mpg

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> François-Olivier Devaux
> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 12:47 AM
> To: discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] 'lossless' JPEG2000
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Norman Vine has pointed to me this discussion about JPEG 2000, and I 
> thought it might be interesting to give you a small overview on JPEG 
> 2000 and present the OpenJPEG library on which we are working.
> 
> 
> FIELDS WHERE JPEG 2000 IS USED
> 
> JPEG 2000 is becoming the reference in image compression for 
> professional applications, where precision and flexibility is really 
> necessary.
> 
> The most know field using JPEG 2000 is Digital Cinema, where 
> JPEG 2000 
> has been favored against MPEG2 and H.264. Linked to that field, High 
> Quality Broadcast applications are also turning to JPEG 2000 
> because of 
> its quality and scalability (low resolution versions can be extracted 
> directly from a high resolution sequence without any re-encoding, and 
> JPEG 2000 sequences are encoded in intra which eases video editing).
> 
> More close to your field is Archiving, where we are feeling a 
> trend to 
> select JPEG 2000 as compression algorithm
> http://www.egov.vic.gov.au/index.php?env=-inlink/detail:m1780-
1-1-8-s-0:l-9669-1-1--
> 
> Medical imaging applications, where lossless compression is a 
> important 
> requirement, are also taking full advantage of JPEG 2000 
> remote browsing 
> possibilities (with the JPIP protocol)
> http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/aware-inc-to-demonstra
te-groundbreaking-medical-imaging-streaming-solution-at-> himss08,290686.shtml
> 
> -
> JPEG 2000 FEATURES
> 
> The JPEG 2000 features that are interesting for GeoSpatial 
> Imagery is of 
> course the ability to achieve lossless compression, the scalability 
> (lower quality and resolutions as well as spatial areas can 
> be extracted 
> from a compressed file, without the need of decompression the entire 
> file), the high precision (most codecs can at least handle 16 
> bits per 
> component, and up to 256 components) and the fact that the 
> core coding 
> system can be obtained free of charge.
> JPEG 2000 also has an inherent robustness higher than most 
> compression 
> schemes (JPEG, ...) and a great protocol to interactively remotely 
> browse images called JPIP.
> 
> -
> OPENJPEG
> 
> OpenJPEG, is an open-source JPEG 2000 library. It has been 
> very recently 
> remodeled by the CNES and the french company CS to meet the 
> requirements 
> of applications using Mega-Images (-> geo-sized images). Independent 
> access to tiles has been improved, in order to increase the library 
> encoding and decoding performances. This new version should be made 
> accessible to users at the beginning of March. We are very 
> happy of the 
> performances of this new version, and are open to new contributions.
> Regarding other JPEG 2000 open source solutions in your 
> field, the GDAL 
> library has a JPEG 2000 module that is based on Jasper, which 
> is a great 
> library, but has unfortunately not evolved for the last years.
> 
> -
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> François
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] 'lossless' JPEG2000

[Michael P. Gerlek]

JPEG 2000 is a method for encoding raster images, in such a way that in
the encoded version the image has special properties -- ability to
extact "down-sampled" versions (with data loss), ~2x space savings, etc
-- while still retaining all of the original data.  You can read the ISO
spec and verify the math, if you wish, to prove the encodings are
lossless, or alternatively you can trust the experts on the ISO
committee.
 
One can optionally choose to throw away bits while doing the encoding
(or after), but that is outside the realm of the JP2 encoding spec per
se.  Modulo metadata, you can't tell if the image has undergone lossy
compression or not.
 
Again, what format do you store your data in now, and what "proof" do
you use to show it is lossless?  (Just to be sure: you do know that the
data that you receive from your satellite ground station is not
bit-for-bit identical with the data that comes off the sensor unit on
the satellite?)
 
If you'd like to get me samples of your data, either by FTP or CD, I'd
be happy to encode them into JP2 format and point to some decoders you
can use yourself to verify the data is indeed lossless (modulo
metadata).  Futhermore, here at LizardTech, we run regression tests on
hundreds of images of all different data types on multiple HW and SW
platforms on a 24x7 basis, and we'd be happy to include your data in our
regression suite.
 
-mpg
 

 



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 7:39 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] 'lossless' JPEG2000



IMO: 


Michael, 

Thanks for the comments on this thread. 

I've had a couple of private emails expressing interest in the
outcome, so I'll continue this conversation in public, rather than
moving it offline. 


One of the problems that I have is that I understand that JPEG
2000 can be 'lossy' or 'non-lossy'. 

(Is there a way to tell if a JPEG2000 file is lossy or not?) 


I don't pretend to understand the maths behind wavelet
compressions. 

I have also not seen 'proof' that would convince me I would be
able to  safely compress all of my imagery using JPEG2000, (potentially)
throw away my source imagery and feel confident that I'd be able to run
image processing routines on the radiometric 'numbers' of the imagery at
some undefined point in the future with confidence in the integrity of
the results. 

As a reminder, when talking about 'imagery', I'm using the term
in its broadest sense to include data such as multi and hyperspectral
data in the umbrella term 'imagery'. I'm not talking about only three
bands displayed as Red, Green and Blue, but **all** the bands in the
'file'. 


The description of a test that I included in the early stages of
this thread would give me a degree of confidence that JPEG 2000 was a
suitable format for long term archival of image data. 

All that I'm seeing at the moment from many people and
organisations is something to the effect of "Trust me, your data is
saved using a loss-less compression." 


Bruce 




[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 26/02/2008 04:27:22 AM:

> Bruce- 
>   
> Again, I'm not sure how to convince you of this...  JP2 is 
> inherently lossless just like GeoTIFF is; what arguments do
you / 
> would you find persuaive to use GeoTIFF?  (alternatively, what
do 
> you use now that you trust?) 
>   
> [feel free to take this to private email, this is probably a
bit 
> esoteric for the rest of the OSGeo crowd] 
>   
> -mpg 
>   
> 





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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] 'lossless' JPEG2000

[Michael P. Gerlek]

I've not read the whole Wikipedia article, but the statement "images
have to be transformed from the RGB color space to another color space"
is indeed incorrect.  Images that are 3-banded MAY be encoded with the
YCC transform, but this is not required; images with some other number
of bands do NOT undergo a color transform step.


If you're using ERMapper (ECW) files now, you're already deep into the
world of lossy transforms.  Imagine files (.img) are lossless, I
believe, so you're safe there.


My offer to encode a few GB of sample data for you still holds :-)

-mpg 

 





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 2:12 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] 'lossless' JPEG2000



IMO: 


Michael, 

Again, I don't pretend to be an expert on JPEG2000. However, I'd
like to know more about the format for future reference. 

Does the wiki article at the following URL represent a good
overview of the format? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG_2000 



If it is accurate, there is a section that leads me to conclude
that the format is not suitable for a lot of remotely sensed spatial
imagery: 


 "Color components transformation 

Initially, images have to be transformed from the RGB color
space   to another color
space, leading to three components that are handled separately. There
are two possible choices:..."  


If this *is* the case, then I wouldn't be able to use the format
to store multi and hyper spectral imagery (ignoring other JP2 issues). 


As to what format are we using currently:The source format
that the data came in with appropriate Geophysics, ERMapper and in some
cases Erdas Imagine conversions. 

What are we using in the future:   To be determined, probably a
database oriented solution. 


As to data corruption:   Many image processing algorithims and
processes result in data loss. The aim for most people is to understand
what is acceptable and to minimise the corruption of their data. 

In our situation, some of the imagery may result from many
millions of dollars spent in capture and processing. Much of it is
irreplacable. All of it must be protected for future use. 


Bruce






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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] 'lossless' JPEG2000

[Michael P. Gerlek]

So that's 10GB of data, using tiles, at 100MB memory?  That's good, and maybe 
requiring tiles for larger images is something I could get used to.  What's the 
speed like?
 
We use both the GMLJP2 standard and the GeoTIFF-tag approach.
 
Gosh but I'd to get behind an open source geo-aware JP2 solution.
 
-mpg
 





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
François-Olivier Devaux
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 1:50 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] 'lossless' JPEG2000


Hi Michael,

We made some tests with tiles of 1000*1000 pixels, with 1 tiles, 
and the memory used is about 112 MB for the encoding and 114 MB for the 
decoding.
If you don't want to use tiles, I don't think OpenJPEG can beat the 
commercial applications like Kakadu.

What standard do you follow for metadata ? OGC GMLJP2, or do you 
include GeoTIFF information in a JP2 file like Luratech suggested to the JPEG 
committee ?

Cheers,
    
        François

Michael P. Gerlek a écrit : 

François:

When you say "Mega-Images (-> geo-sized images)", just how big 
are you talking about?

If you are in the 10-100GB range, I/LizardTech would be very 
interested in talking with you about the project, and also about supporting 
some of the geo metadata conventions.  (Especially if you can do GB-sized data 
sets in less than 1GB of RAM without requiring the image be tiled!)  ((Do you 
have any benchmark data you can share?)

-mpg

 

  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
François-Olivier Devaux
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 12:47 AM
To: discuss@lists.osgeo.org
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] 'lossless' JPEG2000

Hi,

Norman Vine has pointed to me this discussion about 
JPEG 2000, and I 
thought it might be interesting to give you a small 
overview on JPEG 
2000 and present the OpenJPEG library on which we are 
working.


FIELDS WHERE JPEG 2000 IS USED

JPEG 2000 is becoming the reference in image 
compression for 
professional applications, where precision and 
flexibility is really 
necessary.

The most know field using JPEG 2000 is Digital Cinema, 
where 
JPEG 2000 
has been favored against MPEG2 and H.264. Linked to 
that field, High 
Quality Broadcast applications are also turning to JPEG 
2000 
because of 
its quality and scalability (low resolution versions 
can be extracted 
directly from a high resolution sequence without any 
re-encoding, and 
JPEG 2000 sequences are encoded in intra which eases 
video editing).

More close to your field is Archiving, where we are 
feeling a 
trend to 
select JPEG 2000 as compression algorithm

http://www.egov.vic.gov.au/index.php?env=-inlink/detail:m1780-


1-1-8-s-0:l-9669-1-1--
  

Medical imaging applications, where lossless 
compression is a 
important 
requirement, are also taking full advantage of JPEG 
2000 
remote browsing 
possibilities (with the JPIP protocol)

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/aware-inc-to-demonstra


te-groundbreaking-medical-imaging-streaming-solution-at-> 
himss08,290686.shtml
  

-
JPEG 2000 FEATURES

The JPEG 2000 features that are interesting for 
GeoSpatial 
Imagery is of 
course the ability to achieve lossless compression, the 
scalability 
(lower quality and resolutions as well as spatial areas 
can 
  

RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo Buttons

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Dan-
 
In general, yes, you are allowed to use the logo.  There are guidelines
posted on the web (not sure where..) spelling out proper usage, etc.
 
-mpg




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Daniel Ames
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 10:10 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo Buttons


Arnulf,

Thanks for the clarification on the logos.  I was hoping to
prompt this topic thread with my posting. Also useful would be some
guidelines on how and where OSGeo logos can be used on other web pages,
particularly in light of the "self selection/opt in" membership
approach.  

Are all members (i.e. anyone who registers on osgeo.org) allowed
to use the OSGeo logo on their project/personal/corporate web pages to
help identify their interest in OSGeo?  Should the logo be linked to a
particular page on osgeo.org? Should the original logo be used or some
modification of it?

Thanks,

Dan


On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 4:10 AM, Arnulf Christl
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



On Sat, March 1, 2008 01:40, Daniel Ames wrote:
> Tyler et al,
>
>
> I just ran across this previous post about specialized
OSGeo logos for
> members, supporters, etc. to place on their respective
web sites. Not sure
>  if there is still such a need, but here is an
attempt:
>
> http://www.hydromap.com/download/OSGeoMemberLogos.zip
>
>
> Dan


Hi,
these logos must have slipped my attention. We should
not circulate them
any further to maintain a clean brand.

Current OSGeo policy does not differentiate outside
recognition of members
and charter members so that we do not have a need for
separate logos.
Charter members are only required internally for votes
into the board of
directors.

It has been discussed that the OSGeo logo should be
available with an
additional tag line "Sponsor". It seems that the need to
differentiate
between graduated and incubating projects is not seen as
that important.

Jeroen will send a new set of logos around anytime soon.
We should discuss
them at the next meeting.

Best regards,
Arnulf.


> On Wed, Oct 17, 2007 at 10:42 AM, Tyler Mitchell
(OSGeo) <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 17-Oct-07, at 2:53 AM, Mateusz Loskot wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>>
>>> Do we have anything like official OSGeo banners or
buttons
>>> members can put on their website?
>>
>> Not really, but we do have need for a few different
variations of
>> them. They can built on top of the OSGeo logos
(http://osgeo.org/logos)
>>
>> Specifically I've been wanting to have ones for:
>> * Member
>> * Charter Member
>> * Supporter
>> * Sponsor
>> and probably some more...
>>
>> Any volunteers to do up some prototype buttons or
badge graphics?  :)
>>
>>
>> Tyler
>> ___
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>> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Daniel P. Ames, PhD, PE
> Geospatial Software lab
> Department of Geosciences
> Idaho State University - Idaho Falls
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.hydromap.com
> ___
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>
>


--

Arnulf Christl
http://www.wheregroup.com


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[OSGeo-Discuss] Biweekly OSGeo jobs wanted/offered summary

[Michael P. Gerlek]

As of today, still only one job is being offered -- surely there are
more out there that people should be made aware of?!

  * Tyler Technologies: Java Developer  (posted 4 Feb 2008)

See [2] for details.


[Every two weeks or so, we will post a single message to the OSGeo
discuss list of summarizing the OSGeo-related jobs offered/wanted
currently listed on the Jobs Board [1] and on the jobs mailing list [2].
The subject title will always be "Biweekly OSGeo jobs wanted/offered
summary", so feel free to filter based on that if you wish.  We'll try
this for a few months and see if we can get some traction for the idea.
Questions and comments about the jobs list, or specific jobs offered,
should go to the jobs mailing list or the jobs list overseers.  Please
do NOT reply to the discuss list about jobs postings.]

[1] http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Jobs_Board
[2] http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs


-mpg
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library

[Michael P. Gerlek]

(Is GeoPDF open now?  I was under the impression that they were claiming IP in 
there, but my info is a couple years old.)

-mpg

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rushforth, Peter
> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:56 AM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
> 
> Hi,
> 
> This is an interesting discussion!  
> 
> In the XML world, the answer to graphics rendering is SVG + XSL-FO,
> generated by XSLT scripts according to styling rules.  XSL-FO
> is then rendered via a formatting objects processor, like Apache FOP.
> 
> I'm of the opinion that a pipeline like:
> 
> GML +/- (any XML data) + SLD/FE + WMS graphics  => XSLT => 
> SVG+XSL-FO -> pdf, (?geopdf anyone?)
> 
> would make for a killer map scripting environment.  Plus, it has the
> added benefit of being based on standards or de facto standards
> across the board, with open source solutions available in each
> area.
> 
> I will sign up for the discussion too!
> 
> Cheers,
> Peter Rushforth
> Technology Advisor / Conseiller technique
> GeoConnections / GéoConnexions
> 650-615 Booth St. / rue Booth
> Ottawa ON K1A 0E9
> E-mail / Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Phone / Télephone: (613) 943-0784 
> Fax / telecopier:  (613) 947-2410
> 
> 
> > Use Cases:
> > --
> > I.  Interactive Browsing (e.g. web mapping)  1. Good-looking 
> > web maps (more control of grid/graticule
> > labeling)
> > 
> > II. Ad-hoc Authoring (one-time GIS style layout using GUI)  
> > 1. Good-looking printed (ps,pdf,etc) maps automatically 
> > providing grid/grat, scalebar, legend, north arrow, SRS description
> > - provide an API to exiting GIS apps?
> > 
> > III. Automated Mapping (script driven)
> >  1. Map Series (single page, identical layout)  2. Map Atlas 
> > (mostly map with some text, multi-page)  3. Map-centric 
> > documents (mostly text with some map,
> > multi-page)
> >  4. Route Alignment Sheets (rotated (non 90 deg) to fit
> > page)
> > 
> > Brent Fraser
> > GeoAnalytic Inc.
> > Calgary, Alberta
> > 
> ___
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[OSGeo-Discuss] GeoWeb student contest - closing soon!

[Michael P. Gerlek]

As part of the GeoWeb 2008 conference, a Student Contest is being held
-- with significant cash prizes!

Deadline is next week, so get your entry in soon.

 http://geowebconference.org/students-academia/contest-information


(OSGeo is a happy little cosponsor of this event, as Open Source is a
required part of the entry submission.)

-mpg
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] scale of FOSS projects

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Or, to quote the IETF, "rough consensus and running code".

-mpg

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paulo Marcondes
> Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 4:20 PM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] scale of FOSS projects
> 
> >
> >  Linus didn't write all of Linux. But he wrote enough for 
> it to be useful.
> >
> >  Too much philosophy, not enough code. :)
> 
> As Linus puts it: "talk is cheap..." =]
> 
> 
> -- 
> Paulo Marcondes = PU1/PU2PIX
> -22.915 -42.224 = GG86jc
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Sign the Hague declaration

[Michael P. Gerlek]

I'm not looking to start a debate, but...

>> We call on all governments to:
>>
>>   1. Procure only information technology that implements free and
open standards;
>>   2. Deliver e-government services based exclusively on free and open
standards;
>>   3. Use only free and open digital standards in their own
activities.
>>

I'm certainly sympathetic to the desires this declaration seems to
express, but this seems to go too far by using words like "only" and
"exclusively".

There are undoubtedly cases where extant open standards are not as
mature, stable, featureful, mission-safe, etc, as the relevant
proprietary solutions, and so as a pragmatic matter governments must
rely on the proprietary works in those cases.

-mpg




> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Puttick
> Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 11:28 AM
> To: discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Sign the Hague declaration
> 
> Hi all
> 
> A new group is being formed to promote open digital 
> standards, starting with a declaration regarding the 
> importance of digital standards being truly open:
> 
> http://www.digistan.org/hague-declaration:en
> 
> Please read it and sign if you agree. I'm sure most working 
> with spatial data would have encountered problems with the 
> core areas where standards are missing or not being supported 
> properly. Think GIS projects. Or CAD. I'm sure there are others...
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> --
> Files attached to this email may be in ISO 26300 format 
> (OASIS Open Document Format). If you have difficulty opening 
> them, please visit http://iso26300.info for more information.
> 
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[OSGeo-Discuss] distributed image processing support?

[Michael P. Gerlek]

I'm increasingly seeing more and more need for an open framework for
doing image processing in a distributed, batch-oriented manner.  I'm
thinking along these lines:

  - ability to reference some input image data
  - ability to reference some output repository
  - ability to specify a processing operation, e.g. mosaic, reproject,
balance, etc
  - ability to monitor job progress

I know a couple companies who have systems that do some things like
this, but all are proprietary and nothing's very generalized yet.  I
know too of OGC's Web Coverage Processing Service (WCPS), but I don't
think it has achieved any adoption at this point, and in any case I'm
looking for something that can be worked on in the open (and ideally
more RESTful).

-mpg
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] No news on the election?

[Michael P. Gerlek]

A quick look at the List shows that we've got an impressive a cadre
already.  But, to misquote, I'll admit that I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like: I am sure there are many good candidates
out there still lurking, but perhaps too shy to speak up on his or her
own behalf.

If so, take heart! -- feel free to ask to be nominated, either privately
to one of the charter members (http://www.osgeo.org/charter_members) or
publically to this list.

-mpg


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mateusz Loskot
> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 4:45 PM
> To: Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] No news on the election?
> 
> Hi,
> 
> A few days ago [1] Jo announced here the Election 2008 has started.
> Today, nomination closes and during next 5 days charter members will  
> vote.
> So, we are in the middle of quite important event for the foundation
> but it hasn't been announced on the osgeo.org news.
> 
> Shouldn't we make some noise about the voting soon?
> 
> [1] http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/discuss/2008-May/003658.html
> -- 
> Mateusz Loskot, http://mateusz.loskot.net
> Charter Member of OSGeo, http://osgeo.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Voting for new OSGeo Charter Members openuntil 6th June 2008

[Michael P. Gerlek]

+1 from here too.  All 18 may be indeed be worthy, but moving the goal
post once the ball is in play sets a dangerous precedent.

-mpg

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> Venkatesh Raghavan
> Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 11:14 AM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Voting for new OSGeo Charter 
> Members openuntil 6th June 2008
> 
> Lorenzo Becchi wrote:
> 
> > Dave Patton wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Changing the policy may be appropriate, but not
> >> during the process.
> > 
> > +1 to Dave.
> > 
> > I don't think it's a good idea to change policy now.
> 
> +1 to the above.
> 
> Venka
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Chickens, Boards and Export Restrictions

[Michael P. Gerlek]

I interrupt here to point out that of late the Board has been faced with
some significant questions about the aim and scope of our organization.
This is a good thing: it is what the Board is there for.

We the Charter Members are tasked with electing new board members
shortly, and thus have a chance to directly influsence those
discussions.  I look forward to seeing those nominated put forward their
positions on these issues so we can all vote knowledgably.


-mpg

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Ramsey
> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 9:28 AM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Chickens, Boards and Export Restrictions
> 
> On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 8:56 AM, Arnulf Christl
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > One critique is that the board of directors does not make 
> decisions easily
> > and quickly which could be seen as a weakness (chickens) [1].
> 
> A consensus decision making process necessarily limits the scope of an
> organization to the minimal vision, the place where everyone's beliefs
> intersect, which can be quite small indeed.
> 
> Tyler has been doing well at rolling in some sponsors over the last
> months, I hope that as ED he feels he can bring some proposals forward
> in the coming months to spend that money and some of the FOSS4G money
> in effective ways.
> 
> That you see our inability to do things as a good thing only speaks to
> your minimalist vision, what you want to do, and what OSGeo can do,
> line up pretty OK, I guess.  I see OSGeo pissing away chances to
> galvanize open source in the marketplace, to spur the kind of
> credibility that will float all our boats.  You say potato, I say
> potato.
> 
> P.
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[OSGeo-Discuss] GeoWeb 2008 trip report

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Last week, GeoWeb 2008 (www.geowebconference.org) was held in the lovely
city of Vancouver, BC.  Three notable OSGeo-related events occurred
there...


First, the BC Chapter of OSGeo met for an evening at the offices of
Sierra Systems, high up overlooking the bay.  After much pizza was
consumed, there were two talks.  The first was about wikieducator.org (I
didn't catch the presenter's name): they're receptive to contributed
content from OSGeo-type folks.  The second was by Martin Kyle, about
computer security threats and, perhaps, what could be envisioned for
geo-specific security-related issues.  Thanks to Martin for hosting.


Second, a 1-hour panel session on Open Source Servers was held, hosted
by yours truly with able panelists Paul Ramsey, Justin Deoliveira, and
Bob Bray.  Paul presented a now-infamous set of MapServer slides.  The
attendance was good, and we had some good questions and discussions.  My
thanks again to Paul, Justin, and Bob for participating.


Third, we awarded two prizes for the Student Competition.  The
competition required use of open source software for the projects; OSGeo
was one of the sponsors and as such I was one of the judges.  First
prize went to Tobias Fleischmann (Paris Lodron University Salzburg,
Germany) for "Web Processing Service for Moving Objects Analysis", which
was built using deegree.  Second prize went to Tran Tho Ha and Nguyen
Thi Thanh Thuy (Politecnico di Milano, Italy) for "e-Collaboration for
DGPS/GPS data distribution and receiver device evaluation", which used
PostGIS, MapScript, and OpenLayers.  Congratulations to both winners!


Finally, just for kicks, I'll offer the following bits of geotrivia I
collected during the conference:

  * "A GPS with a bullet hole in it is a paperweight.  A paper map with
a bullet hole
 in it is a paper map with a bullet hole in it."  (attributed to the
US Marine Corps)

  * Tobler's First Law of Geography: "Nearby things are more similar
than distant things."

  * new term I learned: "city furniture" - refers to features of the
urban landscape such
as park benches, bus shelters, street lamps, etc

  * "The amount of metadata needed for a piece of data varies with the
'social distance'
from me to my data consumer."  (Michael Goodchild)

  * For Amazon's web services, 85% use the REST API and 15% use the SOAP
API.  (quoted
by Satish S. of ESRI)

  * On the Vancouver transit system today, 100 of 144 bus routes are
under detours, due
to 2010 Olympics work.  (Peter Ladner, Vancouver deputy mayor)

  * 30% of all 911 calls are not associated with a street address.
(Talbot Brooks)


-mpg
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Looking for OSGeo Slide Show/Presentation Material

[Michael P. Gerlek]

(note from the sidelines: I was the one who started the Library, going back a 
couple years ago, but haven't maintained it in a long time.  It definitely 
needs some love, and would welcome a volunteer to take it over.)

-mpg

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jacolin Yves
> Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 6:36 AM
> To: discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Looking for OSGeo Slide 
> Show/Presentation Material
> 
> Le Thursday 28 August 2008 15:19:30 Markus Neteler, vous avez écrit :
> > On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 1:30 PM, Jorge Gaspar Sanz Salinas
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > ...
> >
> > > So I think it should list ALL the items, or at least offer a
> > > convenient way to filter the contents without having to 
> change all the
> > > web language
> > >
> > > [1] http://www.osgeo.org/node/764
> >
> > Wouldn't it be more appropriate to collect the material in the
> > Wiki? There is a page already:
> >   http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Library
> > and easy to maintain.
> >
> > Above node page is now sort of stand-alone without context.
> >
> > Just me few cents,
> > Markus
> 
> Hi Markus and all,
> 
> It seems there are some issue about Library. First I never 
> aware of this wiki 
> page (I missed it), and one tell me to upload all my files 
> into the OSGeo 
> Library, I am not really happy to move more than 20-30 files 
> to the wiki 
> pages which is not the purpose of such tools (imho).
> 
> The beggining of the wiki page tell me: "Some presentations are found 
> **outside the osgeo.org domain**: " That's mean for me that I 
> will found only 
> files outside of the OSGeo domain. Which is only true for the 
> first item.
> 
> The third line point to the www.osgeo.ogr/library, so this is 
> not really 
> a "stand-alone without context" ;) Also I asked to add the 
> "Library" item, 
> unfortunately I did not create a ticket for this :/
> 
> Finaly, when people looking for information about osgeo, they 
> do not have to 
> be redirected to the wiki page which are working and 
> unofficial information 
> (imho). Also wiki are aims to hosts comunautary works. I may 
> be wrong but it 
> is my way to think about the different OSGeo website.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Y.
> -- 
> Yves Jacolin
> ---
> http://softlibre.gloobe.org
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[OSGeo-Discuss] GeoInt meetup?

[Michael P. Gerlek]

If any of you kindly OSGeo folks are going to GeoInt next month in
Nashville and would be interested like to do a meetup-ish thing, drop me
a line and maybe we can arrange something.

-mpg
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Beta-test the GEospatial Applications Registry(GEAR)

[Michael P. Gerlek]

It doesn't say who is actually "running" this site -- is it a govt
entity, corporate, non-profit...?

Also, the "terms of use" and "privacy policy" links aren't clicky.

-mpg

 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Arnulf Christl
(OSGeo)
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 7:40 AM
To: discuss@lists.osgeo.org
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Beta-test the GEospatial Applications
Registry(GEAR)

FYI. Maybe they will appreciate some humble Open Source contributions.

==
In support of the Geospatial Line of Business, an FGDC-coordinated
activity to streamline geospatial activities across the US federal
government, a GEospatial Applications Registry (GEAR) is being
prototyped as a directory of software applications that are pertinent to
government business processes. The objective is to provide a listing
(Wiki) of software products and encourage comments (blog-style) with
evidence of implementation. Nominations of software in GEAR does not
constitute endorsement by the government, but provides an interesting
and useful way to learn about available software of all types. Software
envisioned for the GEAR include open source and commercial applications,
as well as commercial offerings. Extensions or add-ons to existing
software can be documented and clarified through a dependencies section.

Initially we expect a small number of government-originated applications
to be registered, but we are inviting the broader GIS implementer
community to help us test and build-out the content in GEAR within the
next 2-3 weeks. A typical entry should take less than 30 minutes, less
if you are fluent with the product being described.

Keep in mind that this is only Beta software in a testing phase, but we
welcome your honest and complete entries. These will get propagated into
the final GEAR deployment when it goes public in October. All entries
will be reviewed by a government team and, once approved, made visible
for search and browse. Your assistance is greatly appreciated!

The URL: http://gear.morphexchange.com
==

-- 
Arnulf Benno Christl
http://www.osgeo.org
(OSGeo Board Member)
+50.7342N   +7.0707E


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Mini-conf in Seattle? (was: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] some post-FOSS4G thoughts)

[Michael P. Gerlek]

(In Seattle, we go out for a latte.)

This is a quick troll to see who'd be interested in coming to (and/or
helping organize) a mini-conference in Seattle in spring of '09.  Send
me email, and I'll follow up later with a summary.

-mpg


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jody Garnett
Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 5:15 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] some post-FOSS4G thoughts

Jody Garnett wrote:
> In Canada we go to the pub.
> Jody
Although that said; a regional conference would be fun ... we are still 
struggling to have any kind of meetings for the bc chapter.
I am amazed at all these other groups that have had yearly conferences 
since rocks were beginning to cool.

One down side with the whole conversation track here is the idea of 
splitting into multiple venues is that the open source projects cannot 
always field community members to attend everything.

The original post talked about minimizing expense; breaking into several

venues actually updates the expense from where I am sitting.

Jody
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[OSGeo-Discuss] GeoConnexions column -- see your name in print!

[Michael P. Gerlek]

As some of you know, OSGeo runs a monthly column in GeoConnexions magazine 
about open source issues.  We've done 18 articles to date, which have resulted 
in some good PR (and a bit of cash) for our foundation.

If you are interested in submitting a future column, or even just ideas for a 
column, please let me know!

Some details and links to previous columns can be found at: 
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/GeoConnexion_Column.

-mpg

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[OSGeo-Discuss] Call for Papers -- GeoWeb 2009 (July, Vancouver)

[Michael P. Gerlek]

The annual GeoWeb conference has just released its call for papers (and 
workshops) -- where better to spend a few days this summer than in beautiful 
Vancouver BC?

The theme for this year's gig is "cityscapes", which should appeal to all you 
urban modelers out there.  

As usual, open source related contributions are strongly encouraged, and if we 
get enough submissions I'd lobby for a FOSS-specific track/session.  Also, 
there is again a student competition, for which the implementation must be open 
source.

Details at http://geowebconference.org.

-mpg

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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] GeoConnexions column -- see your name in print!

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Cameron-

Did you mean putting a CD into the magazine itself, or just writing about the 
idea?

The latter would be great, we could do that.

I don't have control over the former issue, though -- that would likely require 
some monetary cost from OSGeo or the magazine to burn and insert the CDs, no?

-mpg


-Original Message-
From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] 
On Behalf Of Cameron Shorter
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 5:34 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] GeoConnexions column -- see your name in print!

Michael,
Computer magazines often include a free CD like the latest Ubuntu 
distribution, along with a two page spread about the software on the CD.

We have a Geospatial LiveDVD which could fit that bill, and which the 
community could tweak to include Linux as well as Windows software.

Is this of interest to you?


Michael P. Gerlek wrote:
> As some of you know, OSGeo runs a monthly column in GeoConnexions magazine 
> about open source issues.  We've done 18 articles to date, which have 
> resulted in some good PR (and a bit of cash) for our foundation.
>
> If you are interested in submitting a future column, or even just ideas for a 
> column, please let me know!
>
> Some details and links to previous columns can be found at: 
> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/GeoConnexion_Column.
>
> -mpg
>
> ___
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>   


-- 
Cameron Shorter
Geospatial Systems Architect
Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050
Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254

Think Globally, Fix Locally
Geospatial Solutions enhanced with Open Standards and Open Source
http://www.lisasoft.com

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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] GeoConnexions column -- see your name in print!

[Michael P. Gerlek]

I'll ask.

-mpg


-Original Message-
From: Cameron Shorter [mailto:cameron.shor...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 12:08 AM
To: Michael P. Gerlek
Cc: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] GeoConnexions column -- see your name in print!

Michael,
Writing about the LiveDVD would be good, it might encourage 1/100 
readers to download the DVD and try it.

Actually including the LiveDVD in the magazine would be a huge bonus for 
OSGeo. Every second reader would try the DVD out, and I'd expect high 
uptake from readers of Open Source from this experience.

Yes, you are right, someone would need to fund the DVD print run, and 
much as I'd like to say otherwise, I think the OSGeo marketing budget 
would only be able to contribute a token percentage of the costs.

Are you able to run the idea past the magazine?

Michael P. Gerlek wrote:
> Cameron-
>
> Did you mean putting a CD into the magazine itself, or just writing about the 
> idea?
>
> The latter would be great, we could do that.
>
> I don't have control over the former issue, though -- that would likely 
> require some monetary cost from OSGeo or the magazine to burn and insert the 
> CDs, no?
>
> -mpg
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org 
> [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Shorter
> Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 5:34 PM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] GeoConnexions column -- see your name in print!
>
> Michael,
> Computer magazines often include a free CD like the latest Ubuntu 
> distribution, along with a two page spread about the software on the CD.
>
> We have a Geospatial LiveDVD which could fit that bill, and which the 
> community could tweak to include Linux as well as Windows software.
>
> Is this of interest to you?
>
>
> Michael P. Gerlek wrote:
>   
>> As some of you know, OSGeo runs a monthly column in GeoConnexions magazine 
>> about open source issues.  We've done 18 articles to date, which have 
>> resulted in some good PR (and a bit of cash) for our foundation.
>>
>> If you are interested in submitting a future column, or even just ideas for 
>> a column, please let me know!
>>
>> Some details and links to previous columns can be found at: 
>> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/GeoConnexion_Column.
>>
>> -mpg
>>
>> ___
>> Discuss mailing list
>> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>   
>> 
>
>
>   


-- 
Cameron Shorter
Geospatial Systems Architect
Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050
Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254

Think Globally, Fix Locally
Geospatial Solutions enhanced with Open Standards and Open Source
http://www.lisasoft.com

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[OSGeo-Discuss] Top ten myths for open source in geo?

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Gentlepersons:

I'm doing an article addressing the top ~10 myths/misperceptions about open 
source for geo.  There are a number of such pieces already out there about open 
source in general, from which I'll borrow heavily, but I'd like to have half 
the list be myths specific to the geo and GIS world we're playing in.

Do you have any nominations?  Which issues are not well understood?  What 
questions do you most frequently get asked?


Thanks in advance -

-mpg

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[OSGeo-Discuss] RE: Top ten myths for open source in geo?

[Michael P. Gerlek]

I've already gotten a bunch of great replies, off-list and on-list, but I think 
I may not have been clear in my mail: I'm specifically looking for myths that 
might be directly related to the geo side of the open source world.

-mpg



-Original Message-
From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] 
On Behalf Of Michael P. Gerlek
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 8:54 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Top ten myths for open source in geo?

Gentlepersons:

I'm doing an article addressing the top ~10 myths/misperceptions about open 
source for geo.  There are a number of such pieces already out there about open 
source in general, from which I'll borrow heavily, but I'd like to have half 
the list be myths specific to the geo and GIS world we're playing in.

Do you have any nominations?  Which issues are not well understood?  What 
questions do you most frequently get asked?


Thanks in advance -

-mpg

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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] GeoConnexions column -- see your name in print!

[Michael P. Gerlek]

In order to estimate a cost, the magazine people need to know (exactly) how 
much each insert (DVD + sleeve?) weighs.  Anyone with a good scale?

-mpg


-Original Message-
From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] 
On Behalf Of Cameron Shorter
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 6:30 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] GeoConnexions column -- see your name in print!

Paulo,
A LiveDVD already exists! It was handed out at the FOSS4G 2008 booth, 
and we have handed it out at a few Australian conferences.

Also, every delegate at FOSS4G 2009 will be given a LiveDVD.

Details about the DVD are at: 
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Live_GIS_Disc#Arramagong_LiveDVD


Paulo 'Pmarc' Marcondes wrote:
> 2009/1/22 Cameron Shorter :
>   
>> Michael,
>> Writing about the LiveDVD would be good, it might encourage 1/100 readers to
>> download the DVD and try it.
>>
>> Actually including the LiveDVD in the magazine would be a huge bonus for
>> OSGeo. Every second reader would try the DVD out, and I'd expect high uptake
>> from readers of Open Source from this experience.
>> 
>
> Cameron,
>
> having a propper printed DVDs (or CDs for that matter) would be a huge bonus,
> and quite a marketing effort. Think 'conference handouts'.
>   


-- 
Cameron Shorter
Geospatial Systems Architect
Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050
Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254

Think Globally, Fix Locally
Geospatial Solutions enhanced with Open Standards and Open Source
http://www.lisasoft.com

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[OSGeo-Discuss] RE: Top ten myths for open source in geo?

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Thanks to all who replied!  I've posted all the replies (with private replies 
anonymized) to the wiki -- feel free to edit as you think of more.

http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Top_Ten_Myths

-mpg


-Original Message-
From: Michael P. Gerlek 
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 9:30 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: RE: Top ten myths for open source in geo?

I've already gotten a bunch of great replies, off-list and on-list, but I think 
I may not have been clear in my mail: I'm specifically looking for myths that 
might be directly related to the geo side of the open source world.

-mpg



-Original Message-
From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] 
On Behalf Of Michael P. Gerlek
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 8:54 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Top ten myths for open source in geo?

Gentlepersons:

I'm doing an article addressing the top ~10 myths/misperceptions about open 
source for geo.  There are a number of such pieces already out there about open 
source in general, from which I'll borrow heavily, but I'd like to have half 
the list be myths specific to the geo and GIS world we're playing in.

Do you have any nominations?  Which issues are not well understood?  What 
questions do you most frequently get asked?


Thanks in advance -

-mpg

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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] GeoConnexions column -- see your name in print!

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Cameron (and anyone else curious):

> We mail out 14,000 copies of the magazine across the globe, including
> distribution in delegate bags at every Geospatial technology related event
> that is happy to do a media swap with us (which is most events).  This
> ensures your DVD will be seen by an up to date audience, who are currently
> ACTIVE in the marketplace.
>
> The prices shown include all handling, hand-glue into the 14,000 magazines,
> and mailing costs.
>
> Option 1
> Glue the DVD onto the FRONT COVER of the magazine, then have a full page
> inside the magazine for further information about the DVD's content, and
> your own promotion.
> Cost:  6976 USDollars
>
> Option 2
> Glue the DVD onto page 5 of the magazine - this same page will also be for
> your own marketing message.
> Cost: 6496 USDollars

Probably not in the budget for this year...

-mpg



-Original Message-
From: Cameron Shorter [mailto:cameron.shor...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 12:08 AM
To: Michael P. Gerlek
Cc: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] GeoConnexions column -- see your name in print!

Michael,
Writing about the LiveDVD would be good, it might encourage 1/100 
readers to download the DVD and try it.

Actually including the LiveDVD in the magazine would be a huge bonus for 
OSGeo. Every second reader would try the DVD out, and I'd expect high 
uptake from readers of Open Source from this experience.

Yes, you are right, someone would need to fund the DVD print run, and 
much as I'd like to say otherwise, I think the OSGeo marketing budget 
would only be able to contribute a token percentage of the costs.

Are you able to run the idea past the magazine?

Michael P. Gerlek wrote:
> Cameron-
>
> Did you mean putting a CD into the magazine itself, or just writing about the 
> idea?
>
> The latter would be great, we could do that.
>
> I don't have control over the former issue, though -- that would likely 
> require some monetary cost from OSGeo or the magazine to burn and insert the 
> CDs, no?
>
> -mpg
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org 
> [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Shorter
> Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 5:34 PM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] GeoConnexions column -- see your name in print!
>
> Michael,
> Computer magazines often include a free CD like the latest Ubuntu 
> distribution, along with a two page spread about the software on the CD.
>
> We have a Geospatial LiveDVD which could fit that bill, and which the 
> community could tweak to include Linux as well as Windows software.
>
> Is this of interest to you?
>
>
> Michael P. Gerlek wrote:
>   
>> As some of you know, OSGeo runs a monthly column in GeoConnexions magazine 
>> about open source issues.  We've done 18 articles to date, which have 
>> resulted in some good PR (and a bit of cash) for our foundation.
>>
>> If you are interested in submitting a future column, or even just ideas for 
>> a column, please let me know!
>>
>> Some details and links to previous columns can be found at: 
>> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/GeoConnexion_Column.
>>
>> -mpg
>>
>> ___
>> Discuss mailing list
>> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>   
>> 
>
>
>   


-- 
Cameron Shorter
Geospatial Systems Architect
Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050
Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254

Think Globally, Fix Locally
Geospatial Solutions enhanced with Open Standards and Open Source
http://www.lisasoft.com

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[OSGeo-Discuss] Open source TIN code?

[Michael P. Gerlek]

The Community has need of BSD-licensed source code for TIN generation (in 
3-space).  It doesn't have to be "really good", just good enough for some 
simple demo apps (for example, full-on Delauney support not needed).

I know there are a bunch of TIN algs out there on the net in various places, 
but I don't have much experience with any of them.  If anyone has any pointers, 
I'd appreciate it.

Thanks --

-mpg

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[OSGeo-Discuss] RE: Open source TIN code?

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Following up on my post, for anyone interested: the news isn't good.


Most of the responses I got were pointers to Isenburg's and Shewchuck's work, 
such as
  http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~quake/triangle.html
and
  http://www.cs.unc.edu/~isenburg/sd/

I did know about these, and they are indeed good stuffs, but folks should be 
aware that they are *not* open source libraries.  A lot of people think their 
work is "free" but to the best of my knowledge it is not.  (Triangle is 
"copyrighted by the author and may not be sold or included in commercial 
products without a license"; Isenburg's code has the copyright assigned to him 
with no accompanying BSD-like or GPL-like assurances.)


I also was given pointers to..

  * FIST (http://www.cosy.sbg.ac.at/~held/projects/triang/triang.html), but the 
web page explicitly says "FIST has not been released into the public domain" 
(by which I assume they mean copyleft).

  * GRASS (http://grass.osgeo.org/grass64/manuals/html64_user/v.delaunay.html), 
which is under GPL

  * TerraLib 
(http://www.dpi.inpe.br/terralib/html/v320/html/group___math_const.html), which 
is under LGPL

  * Sexante 
(http://bezdek2009dp.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/myAlgorithmSextante/src/es/unex/sextante/vectorTools/)
 which is also GPL


Finally, Ben Discoe has a site 
(http://vterrain.org/Implementation/Libs/triangulate.html) listing a bunch of 
links that I've not yet dug into.  I'm hoping to find something in there I can 
use.


If anyone has any other suggestions, or is aware of inaccuracies in my above 
statements, pls let me know.

Thanks.

-mpg


-Original Message-
From: Michael P. Gerlek 
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:17 AM
To: 'OSGeo Discussions'
Subject: Open source TIN code?

The Community has need of BSD-licensed source code for TIN generation (in 
3-space).  It doesn't have to be "really good", just good enough for some 
simple demo apps (for example, full-on Delauney support not needed).

I know there are a bunch of TIN algs out there on the net in various places, 
but I don't have much experience with any of them.  If anyone has any pointers, 
I'd appreciate it.

Thanks --

-mpg

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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] RE: Open source TIN code?

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Yeah, I have anecdotal evidence Isenburg gave the OK (Hobu noted it on the 
liblas list), but he didn't specify exactly for *what* he was okay with from 
the tools collection which makes me nervous.  If he were to say "all of it", 
then we're all set (I just care about the TINner inside lasview).

Sometimes it's a pain when you try to play by the rules :-(

-mpg


-Original Message-
From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] 
On Behalf Of Mateusz Loskot
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 4:55 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] RE: Open source TIN code?

Traian Stanev wrote:
> It's probably worth sending an email to Isenburg to ask for the
> actual licensing restrictions of his stuff. It was developed under an
> NSF grant, so he may not have much choice but to allow it to be used
> in a BSD-like way.

We have already walked [1] that way in libLAS and it wasn't easy,
a little roller coaster.

[1]
http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/liblas-devel/2008-October/000355.html

Best regards,
-- 
Mateusz Loskot, http://mateusz.loskot.net
Charter Member of OSGeo, http://osgeo.org
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[OSGeo-Discuss] GoeConnextions column - CFP

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Time for my periodic reminder about OSGeo's monthly column in GeoConnexions 
magazine.  We've published 22(!) articles to date, covering everything from the 
major OSGeo packages to business-related issues to thoughts on standards and 
file formats.

I'm always on the hunt for more material, so if you've got an idea for an 
article you'd like to write, just let me know.  [Hint: some of you bloggers 
might consider extending and polishing up some stuff you've already written -- 
think code reuse.]

Aside from the advantage of a platform to promote open source in our industry, 
the author receives a small honorarium associated with each column we print 
(much of which has in turn been donated back to OSGeo's coffers).

See http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/GeoConnexion_Column for past articles and 
editorial info, and note especially the liberal reprint policy.

Thanks for your continued support.

-mpg

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Military OSS

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Atlanta in August?  ...As long as they've got good air conditioning!

.mpg

On Jul 1, 2009, at 7:21 AM, "Mark Lucas" 
mailto:mluca...@mac.com>> wrote:


Hi All,

I am helping to setup a Military open source software conference in @ GTRI in 
Atlanta in August, no suits/ties, just a bunch of techies doing the right thing:

http://www.mil-oss.org/

if you can make it, great!
Even better if you speak!  I'd like to see if we can get some other OSGeo 
projects to participate.

Military Open Source Software (Mil-OSS)
Working Group · 12th - 13th August 2009 · Atlanta, Georgia
KEY NOTES
Open Source & the US Department of Defense
Daniel Risacher
Associate Director
Information Policy and Integration, DoD CIO
Bio | LinkedIn  Keep It Stupid Stupid: The KISS Principle for DoD Acquisitions
Major James D. Neushul
I MEF Future Operations, Commo / IMO
LinkedIn


OPEN AGENDA
GEOSPATIAL OSS PROJECTS  GENERAL OSS PROJECTS  MISC TOPICS
Chair:  John Scott
Mercury Federal Systems
Bio | LinkedIn  Chair:  Heather Burke
SPAWAR Charleston
LinkedIn  Chair:  Joshua L. Davis
Georgia Tech Research Institute
Bio | LinkedIn

Current Topics:  FalconView,
STAR-TIDES...
Current Topics:  Drupal, Ballistic Missel Defense Benchmark, JBOSS, I MEF 
Webportal...
Current Topics:  VMWare & GIT, SCHOLAR




Mark Lucas
Principal Scientist






516 E New Haven Avenue
Melbourne Fl 32901

(321) 266 1475 (cell)
mlu...@radiantblue.com

---
http://www.radiantblue.com
http://www.ossim.org




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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Military OSS

[Michael P. Gerlek]

(sorry, that wasn't supposed to go to the whole list - still getting used to 
the iPhone...)

.mpg

On Jul 1, 2009, at 7:26 AM, "Michael P. Gerlek" 
mailto:m...@lizardtech.com>> wrote:

Atlanta in August?  ...As long as they've got good air conditioning!

.mpg

On Jul 1, 2009, at 7:21 AM, "Mark Lucas" 
<<mailto:mluca...@mac.com>mluca...@mac.com<mailto:mluca...@mac.com>> wrote:


Hi All,

I am helping to setup a Military open source software conference in @ GTRI in 
Atlanta in August, no suits/ties, just a bunch of techies doing the right thing:

<http://www.mil-oss.org/><http://www.mil-oss.org/>http://www.mil-oss.org/

if you can make it, great!
Even better if you speak!  I'd like to see if we can get some other OSGeo 
projects to participate.

Military Open Source Software (Mil-OSS)
Working Group · 12th - 13th August 2009 · Atlanta, Georgia
KEY NOTES
Open Source & the US Department of Defense
Daniel Risacher
Associate Director
Information Policy and Integration, DoD CIO
Bio | LinkedIn  Keep It Stupid Stupid: The KISS Principle for DoD Acquisitions
Major James D. Neushul
I MEF Future Operations, Commo / IMO
LinkedIn


OPEN AGENDA
GEOSPATIAL OSS PROJECTS  GENERAL OSS PROJECTS  MISC TOPICS
Chair:  John Scott
Mercury Federal Systems
Bio | LinkedIn  Chair:  Heather Burke
SPAWAR Charleston
LinkedIn  Chair:  Joshua L. Davis
Georgia Tech Research Institute
Bio | LinkedIn

Current Topics:  FalconView,
STAR-TIDES...
Current Topics:  Drupal, Ballistic Missel Defense Benchmark, JBOSS, I MEF 
Webportal...
Current Topics:  VMWare & GIT, SCHOLAR




Mark Lucas
Principal Scientist






516 E New Haven Avenue
Melbourne Fl 32901

(321) 266 1475 (cell)
<mailto:mlu...@radiantblue.com><mailto:mlu...@radiantblue.com>mlu...@radiantblue.com<mailto:mlu...@radiantblue.com>

---
<http://www.radiantblue.com><http://www.radiantblue.com>http://www.radiantblue.com
<http://www.ossim.org><http://www.ossim.org>http://www.ossim.org




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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] FYI - US Cong. Hearing on Geospatial Information

[Michael P. Gerlek]

(I'm not sure why, but I actually have a sad desire to get up early to watch 
this next week...)

-mpg



-Original Message-
From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] 
On Behalf Of Julia Harrell
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 3:03 PM
To: discuss@lists.osgeo.org
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] FYI - US Cong. Hearing on Geospatial Information


Might be of interest to some on the list  

This U.S. Congressional Oversight Hearing on the Management of Geospatial 
Information will be webcast live on Thursday, July 23rd at 10 AM EDT, as well 
as archived for later viewing.

http://resourcescommittee.house.gov/index.php?option=com_jcalpro&Itemid=27&extmode=view&extid=278

Many thanks to Dave Smith for finding the link. Now who would have ever thought 
that an oversight hearing on Geospatial Information Governance should be buried 
down in a Subcommittee on Energy and Mineral Resources ...

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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Patent for feature of paper map.

[Michael P. Gerlek]

While I have no absolutely no familiarity with the patent in question, 
something I've said here before perhaps bears occasional repeating:

Patent and IP law is a very deep and complex subject.  The vast majority of us 
laypersons are not qualified to read and evaluate patent claims; what is 
reported in the popular press is often a very watered-down or simplistic 
interpretation of what is actually being claimed.  Some patent claims do indeed 
turn out to be riddled through with "obvious" prior art, but in order to really 
know that typically requires one to be experienced in the field of use *and* 
have thorough understanding of the legal language used in the claim 
constructions.

By all means we should all continue to bring down bogus patent attempts, but we 
in doing so we all need to be careful of making any hasty or unfounded 
allegations.


-mpg (ianal)


-Original Message-
From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] 
On Behalf Of Bill Thoen
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 7:14 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Patent for feature of paper map.

You might be surprised what people might be able to get away with, 
though. There's been repeated attempts to patent "web mapping" for 
example, and if it wasn't for the efforts of a few dedicated people, 
there would now be patents in both Britain and the USA on displaying 
maps over the web. But the threat is not dead yet, believe it or not, 
and it may culminate in a battle between Microsoft and Google sometime 
in the near future. Check out Daniel Morissette's blog entry for Feb 21, 
2009, "Microsoft Patents the Map" at http://www.systemed.net/blog/?p=68. 
If Microsoft really uses the Multimap patent to put the bite on Google, 
then you can bet your bippy that it'll affect your web mapping business 
too.

If reading that article brings your blood to a righteous boil, and you 
want to know more about who really invented web mapping, see Carl Reed's 
2004 article, "Intellectual Property, Patents, and Web Mapping: 
Historical Perspective" at 
http://portal.opengeospatial.org/files/?artifact_id=28360.

- Bill Thoen
GISnet - www.gisnet.com

Brian Russo wrote:
> I've seen legends similar to that before; afraid I can't offer 
> anything solid in terms of prior art examples but it's hardly as 
> revolutionary as they seem to think.
> Pretty absurd if you ask me;
> On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 7:34 AM, "René A. Enguehard" 
> mailto:ahugen...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I suspect they might be applying for the patent but in for quite a
> surprise when it gets rejected. Features for maps would be very
> tricky to patent and, more importantly, not in the interest of the
> general public. As such the patent applications would probably get
> rejected. Would we really want people patenting things like
> projections, north arrows, scale bars or legends? I don't think it
> would be productive and suspect any patent office in its right
> mind would see it the same way.
>
> Patents were created to help people protect their ideas for a
> length of time so they could reap the rewards of their work and
> refine it without fear of being copied or undercut. This works
> very well for many things but fails miserably for conceptual
> things like maps or layouts for books or posters. This is why many
> patent offices now require people to patent "systems" rather than
> "things". I don't see how a wrap-around map could be explained as
> a system.
>
> René
> IANAL
>
> Landon Blake wrote:
>
>
> The latest issue of the ACSM Bulletin had an interesting
> article about a map matrix that wraps around the edge of a
> paper map. It seems the company that is using this feature of
> hard copy map design is applying for a patent. I didn't even
> think you could get a patent a feature of a paper map. It got
> me wondering who holds the patent on the use of a north arrow
> and scale.
>
> At any rate, here is the article if you are interested in
> reading it:
>
> http://www.webmazine.org/issues/current/documents/wrap.pdf
>
> I couldn't find the patent application, or I would have posted
> a link to it. Let me know if you have any comments.
>
> Landon
>

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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Like the subject of patents from a couple weeks ago, we need to be careful of 
painting
these things with too broad a brush.


> I've got to have MicroStation to work with CALTRANS, AutoCAD to work with my 
> local city,
> ESRI to work with the County's GIS department, and software from LizardTech 
> to use the 
> imagery distributed by USDA for my County in MRSID format. To make it even 
> more pleasant, 
> AutoDESK breaks its file compatibility every other version or so, which means 
> my company 
> gets to purchase a license upgrade if we want to keep dealing with our 
> government clients.
> 
> Money talks in United States politics, and I'm sure the big boys in the 
> software development
> throw plenty of greenbacks around when it suits there purpose.

I'm not sure what you mean by this -- lobbying?  Campaign contributions?  Yes, 
MrSID is widely
used in parts of the federal government but it is certainly not the case that 
LizardTech has
ever "thrown plenty of greenbacks around" to get anyone to use our file format. 
 (I doubt the
various owners of ECW ever have either.)


> I'm not saying there is a malicious intent on government agencies to make 
> life difficult.
> But I certainly don't see a widespread effort to embrace open source for its 
> benefits, or
> to look for any alternatives to the widely established monopolies.

In the case of one very prominent use of MrSID in the US federal government, an 
open standard
solution was explicitly considered as an alternative, but it was notably 
rejected in large part
because of the lack of penetration and technical expertise in the target 
marketplace and
ecosystem.

I actually see a lot of explicit government consideration of open standards and 
open source
software -- and it gets better every year.  However, adoption of new 
technologies (when done
right!) requires evaluation of a myriad of criteria, only one of which is open 
access.


-mpg (not speaking officially for LizardTech)



-Original Message-
From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] 
On Behalf Of Landon Blake
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 9:10 AM
To: punk...@eidesis.org; OSGeo Discussions
Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in

I'm a long ways from Washington DC and a lot closer to the Silicon Valley, 
which may be a reason why I perceive different attitudes.

I do think the new US Administration seems friendlier towards open source 
software. Still, when I think about the fight over using ODF in Maryland and 
other similar situations I realize open source software still has an uphill 
battle in many parts of the United States. This may even be truer in the 
geospatial arena than in others.

Autodesk and ESRI may be great corporate citizens, but there is no doubt in my 
mind that the control software monopolies, especially in the government market. 
This isn't just true at the federal level, but at the state and local level as 
well.

I've got to have MicroStation to work with CALTRANS, AutoCAD to work with my 
local city, ESRI to work with the County's GIS department, and software from 
LizardTech to use the imagery distributed by USDA for my County in MRSID 
format. To make it even more pleasant, AutoDESK breaks its file compatibility 
every other version or so, which means my company gets to purchase a license 
upgrade if we want to keep dealing with our government clients.

Money talks in United States politics, and I'm sure the big boys in the 
software development throw plenty of greenbacks around when it suits there 
purpose.

I'm not saying there is a malicious intent on government agencies to make life 
difficult. But I certainly don't see a widespread effort to embrace open source 
for its benefits, or to look for any alternatives to the widely established 
monopolies.

(I do know of a couple cases where some state agencies in California are making 
an effort to use open source GIS desktop software.)

Things may be very different in the web-mapping world. I'm talking about 
desktop software, since that is what I deal with 98% of the time.

But, like you, I speak from personal experience, and don't have any hard facts 
or statistics to back up my wild claims. :]

Landon
Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268
Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658
 
 

-Original Message-
From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] 
On Behalf Of P Kishor
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 7:53 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in

On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Landon Blake wrote:
> Cameron wrote:
>
> " Canada looks preferable to the US. I wonder how much the Canadian
> GeoConnections program is responsible for Canada's strong OSGeo
> industry."
>
> I believe governments in Canada are much more supportive of open source
> software than governments in the United States. In my experience, the
> attitude towards open source software held by many

RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and Proprietary Algorithms

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Some clarifications:

- MrSID has both lossy and lossless modes
- MrSID is not fractal based; it uses wavelets (and arithmetic encoding)
- you can't copyright algorithms; the MrSID source code certainly is, however
- MrSID relies on a number of patents, not all of which are owned by LizardTech
- reading MrSID does not require any fees; we have libraries you can download, 
although they are not open source

That said, some editorial comments (although I'm now wishing I hadn't been so 
quick to rise to Landon's bait :-)

- Some of you know the history of trying to open source MrSID; I won't go into 
that here, except to say that LizardTech doesn't own all of the required IP 
needed to make that happen.
- If we are speaking of the NAIP data, then no, it is not exclusively available 
in MrSID format; it is also shipped as GeoTIFFs.
- JPEG 2000 is a very robust open standard alternative to MrSID, and a number 
of players already support it (including LizardTech), but not enough to make it 
viable for certain domains like NAIP.
- some of you also know the history on open JP2 support: there is today no open 
source implementation of JP2 that is suitable for geo work.  Alas.

-mpg


From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] 
On Behalf Of Eric Wolf
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 2:15 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and Proprietary Algorithms

The MRSID format is a very special case - and perhaps an opportunity for a new 
FOSS file format. MRSID is a lossless, fractal-based, multi-scale raster 
compression format. LizardTech has the algorithms to encode and decode MRSID 
locked up in copyrights, and I believe, patents. Even companies like ESRI shell 
out big bucks to LizardTech to be able to read and write the MRSID format.

I guess I missed the context of the discussion. Is the government releasing 
certain data exclusively in this format? If so, I think the argument can be 
made against this practice. The different in compression between MRSID and 
gziped TIFFs isn't really that great in this day of cheap disks and fat pipes.

-Eric

-=--=---===---=--=-=--=---==---=--=-=-
Eric B. WolfNew! 720-334-7734
USGS Geographer
Center of Excellence in GIScience
PhD Student
CU-Boulder - Geography



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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and Proprietary Algorithms

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Landon asked:

> When you said "there is today no open source implementation of JP2 that is 
> suitable for geo
> work" do you mean that there is no open source library that can read and 
> write JP2? If so,
> who is using the format?

There are a few implementations of JP2 around.  The Kakadu library, which is 
extremely compliant and featureful and robust (and correspondingly extremely 
big and complicated and scary) is the best-known package: it is available only 
via licensing fees.  LizardTech uses Kakadu, in fact, and a number of geo 
vendors use either Kakadu directly or LizardTech's packaging of it.

The ER Mapper folks had a JP2 solution at one time, but I never understood 
their licensing terms to be OSI compliant -- and since they got bought out by 
Leica I've sort of stopped tracking that issue.  If anyone has any current 
info, I'd like to hear it.

There are a couple truly open source libraries, but none have been written in 
such a way as to be able to support geo-sized imagery (>500MB, say).  Doing the 
wavelet algorithms efficiently for large data sets requires rocket science.


> Do you know why there hasn't been a broader adoption of JP2?

Not through lack of trying on my part :-)

I think the two biggest reasons are:

(1) The algorithms for handling large images in memory really are rocket 
science, and no one in the FOSS community has gotten the "itch" sufficiently 
bad enough to go and do the work needed inside the existing open source 
packages.  Hopefully someday someone will.

(2) MrSID (and, perhaps, ECW) are widely used and supported.  Philosophical 
motivations aside, MrSID and ECW have historically gotten the job done and so 
the need for JP2 just isn't as high as it otherwise might be.

That said, NGA is a good counter-example.  They support JP2 in a number of 
areas already and have mandates to broaden that support. 

-mpg


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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and Proprietary Algorithms

[Michael P. Gerlek]

I'll mention too the question of patents and JP2, since this thread is bound to 
get into THAT issue too before long :-)



Some of the algorithms within the JP2 standard (from ISO) are patented.  
However, the companies in question have agreed to not exercise their rights on 
those patents for any implementation of the standard.  That is, if you write a 
ISO-compliant JP2 encoder, Company X won't come after you.  This is a good 
thing, and is not uncommon practice for some standards groups.  It's better for 
us than the RAND ("reasonable and non-discriminatory") clauses that get used by 
some groups.



However, there is an interesting philosophical consideration for the open 
source community here.



Let's say I write a nice, compliant MpgJp2 library on Monday and open source 
it.  Landon looks at my code and, smart cookie that he is, realizes that he 
could improve the overall compression ratio by tweaking one of the core 
algorithms.  He forks my code, makes the change, and posts the SunburnedJp2 
library to the web on Tuesday night.  Cool.  We like that.  Open source in 
action.



But wait -- Wednesday morning, he finds an email from Company X's lawyers in 
his inbox: he is now in violation of X's patent, because he is not using the 
patent within the bounds of a "compliant JP2 encoder".  He broke the file 
format.  ["You break it, you buy it"?]  It's not a "JPEG 2000" library anymore.



Some open source partisans may therefore consider the JP2 standard to not be 
truly open enough.



I'm sure there are other standards with this same problem, although I don't 
know of any offhand.



-mpg





From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] 
On Behalf Of Landon Blake
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 2:57 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and Proprietary Algorithms

MPG:

Thanks for the clarification.

When you said "there is today no open source implementation of JP2 that is 
suitable for geo work" do you mean that there is no open source library that 
can read and write JP2? If so, who is using the format?

Do you know why there hasn't been a broader adoption of JP2?

(I should also add the MPG helped me publish a short article in support for 
open file formats, so I know he is on our side.)  :]

Landon
Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268
Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658


____
From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] 
On Behalf Of Michael P. Gerlek
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 1:55 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and Proprietary Algorithms

Some clarifications:

- MrSID has both lossy and lossless modes
- MrSID is not fractal based; it uses wavelets (and arithmetic encoding)
- you can't copyright algorithms; the MrSID source code certainly is, however
- MrSID relies on a number of patents, not all of which are owned by LizardTech
- reading MrSID does not require any fees; we have libraries you can download, 
although they are not open source

That said, some editorial comments (although I'm now wishing I hadn't been so 
quick to rise to Landon's bait :-)

- Some of you know the history of trying to open source MrSID; I won't go into 
that here, except to say that LizardTech doesn't own all of the required IP 
needed to make that happen.
- If we are speaking of the NAIP data, then no, it is not exclusively available 
in MrSID format; it is also shipped as GeoTIFFs.
- JPEG 2000 is a very robust open standard alternative to MrSID, and a number 
of players already support it (including LizardTech), but not enough to make it 
viable for certain domains like NAIP.
- some of you also know the history on open JP2 support: there is today no open 
source implementation of JP2 that is suitable for geo work.  Alas.

-mpg


From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] 
On Behalf Of Eric Wolf
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 2:15 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and Proprietary Algorithms

The MRSID format is a very special case - and perhaps an opportunity for a new 
FOSS file format. MRSID is a lossless, fractal-based, multi-scale raster 
compression format. LizardTech has the algorithms to encode and decode MRSID 
locked up in copyrights, and I believe, patents. Even companies like ESRI shell 
out big bucks to LizardTech to be able to read and write the MRSID format.

I guess I missed the context of the discussion. Is the government releasing 
certain data exclusively in this format? If so, I think the argument can be 
made against this practice. The different in compression between MRSID and 
gziped TIFFs isn't really that great in this day of cheap disks and fat pipes.

-Eric

-=--=---===---=--=-=--=---=---

RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and ProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Michael P. Gerlek]

"Tiling" essentially means you can take a large file and compress pieces of it 
independently.  This avoids having to deal with the large memory footprint 
issues, but it can also lead to seam-line artifacts under certain conditions.  
Ideally, one would prefer to have the option of compressing large images 
without resorting to using tiles.

Note too that, in addition to the large image issue, many of the JP2 
implementations out there are either not fully compliant or are not tuned for 
performance.  A viable solution would need both of these.

-mpg


-Original Message-
From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] 
On Behalf Of Chris Puttick
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 9:37 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and 
ProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

Well, according to this page: http://jpeg2000.epfl.ch/ v.5.1, courtesy in part 
Eastman Kodak, provides "complete JP2 support at the decoding side" - not sure 
whether that covers the tiling or other geo needs, but doesn't it sound worth 
investigating?

Chris


- "Christopher Schmidt"  wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 08:27:13AM -0700, Landon Blake wrote:
> > Thanks for the information Michael. I am downloading Opticks right
> now.
> > :]
> > 
> > I also found this Java library for JP2, thought I'm not sure how
> > complete/up-to-date it is:
> > 
> > http://jj2000.epfl.ch/
> > 
> > Maybe we need a JPEG 2000 page on the OSGeo wiki.
> 
> Note that "JPEG 2000 support" is different from "JPEG 2000 support
> which
> works on geo-sized images." The tiling (or 'paging'? as Michael calls
> it) support that's supposed to be provided by OpenJPEG2000 has been
> coming 'real soon now' for about 18 months now from my uneducated
> observations, and until it's there, most tools using OpenJPEG for JP2s
> are
> going to suffering under much the same limitations.
> 
> -- Chris
> 
> > Landon
> > Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268
> > Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658
> >  
> >  
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org
> > [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Considine,
> Michael
> > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 8:09 AM
> > To: OSGeo Discussions
> > Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and
> > ProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
> > 
> > All,
> > 
> > Opticks is an open source remote sensing application and
> development
> > framework. We recently started the process to add JPEG 2000 support
> to
> > our framework. We picked OpenJpeg to add JPEG 2000 support to our
> > application. They are also open source. We currently support
> importing
> > JPEG 2000 files but we are currently limited to the 4GB memory size
> > after decoding.
> > 
> > Our plan is to continue development and to upgrade to OpenJpeg 2.0
> once
> > they have a stable release. That will allow Opticks to use a pager
> to
> > display and support much larger files.
> > 
> > Michael Considine
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org
> > [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Bruce
> Bannerman
> > Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 8:15 PM
> > To: 'OSGeo Discussions'
> > Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and Proprietary
> > Algorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
> > 
> > 
> > IMO:
> > 
> > 
> > Just another thought on this issue (though we do seem to be
> recycling
> > arguments over the years...):
> > 
> > 
> > Assuming that I have a very large archive of spatial data, be it
> imagery
> > or any other spatial format and that I store my data in a variety
> of
> > proprietary formats:
> > 
> > 
> > In ten years from now, can I be sure that:
> > 
> > - the company that created, understands, and holds the IP in the 
> >   data format will still be around?
> > 
> > - there will still be software that runs on the then current
> >   operating environment, that can read and 'fully exploit' the data
> >   in the proprietary standard?
> > 
> > - that this future software will work seamlessly with my then
> current 
> >   spatial environment?
> > 
> > - if all of the above risks prove to eventuate, can I be sure that
> I'll
> >   be able to salvage my data into another format, retaining its
> complete
> > 
> >   semantic context?
> > 
> > 
> > IMO, it is a hig

RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats andProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Michael P. Gerlek]

Not a stupid question -- but it doesn't work that way.  The artifacts are due 
to the wavelet processing of the pixels near the tile boundaries, and the 
boundaries have to be treated reflectively within their individual tiles (in 
order to keep each tile separate), which means you can sometimes "see" where 
those boundaries are.  "Overlapping" doesn't help because the wavelet footprint 
spans a large width, in order to handle the lower-resolution scales.  Which in 
turn means you need to be able "reach" far away parts of the image at various 
(some might say "arbitrary") stages in the wavelet pipeline.
 
Just trust me, it is a nontrivial problem to solve.  Brighter minds than ours 
have spent a lot of energy on this problem -- a literature search would reveal 
a number of PhD theses and patents.

-mpg


-Original Message-
From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] 
On Behalf Of Landon Blake
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 10:45 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats 
andProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

MPG wrote: "Tiling" essentially means you can take a large file and
compress pieces of it independently.  This avoids having to deal with
the large memory footprint issues, but it can also lead to seam-line
artifacts under certain conditions.  Ideally, one would prefer to have
the option of compressing large images without resorting to using
tiles."

This is probably a stupid question, since I know absolutely nothing
about image compression, but couldn't you overlap the tiles slightly to
avoid the seam lines?

This would obviously result in a slightly larger file size because some
pixels would be compressed twice. But that might be OK if you were
trying to compress a huge image.

What about reading chunks of the image off disk, instead of trying to
put the whole image in memory? This would be slower, but might make an
impossible task possible.

We run into this problem with vector datasets to. Some datasets are just
to stinking BIG. One of my tasks for OpenJUMP is to write a core module
that displays vector data accessed directly from disk, instead of from
memory. This will be slower, but it is better than crashing the program
because there isn't enough RAM.

Things must be more complicated than can be described in an e-mail,
because we've got people a lot smarter than me working on these
problems. I am just curious. (I tried reading about wavelet compression
on Wikipedia yesterday and quickly got a headache.) :]

Landon
Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268
Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658
 
 

-Original Message-
From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org
[mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Michael P. Gerlek
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 9:36 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats
andProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

"Tiling" essentially means you can take a large file and compress pieces
of it independently.  This avoids having to deal with the large memory
footprint issues, but it can also lead to seam-line artifacts under
certain conditions.  Ideally, one would prefer to have the option of
compressing large images without resorting to using tiles.

Note too that, in addition to the large image issue, many of the JP2
implementations out there are either not fully compliant or are not
tuned for performance.  A viable solution would need both of these.

-mpg


-Original Message-
From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org
[mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Chris Puttick
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 9:37 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and
ProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

Well, according to this page: http://jpeg2000.epfl.ch/ v.5.1, courtesy
in part Eastman Kodak, provides "complete JP2 support at the decoding
side" - not sure whether that covers the tiling or other geo needs, but
doesn't it sound worth investigating?

Chris


- "Christopher Schmidt"  wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 08:27:13AM -0700, Landon Blake wrote:
> > Thanks for the information Michael. I am downloading Opticks right
> now.
> > :]
> > 
> > I also found this Java library for JP2, thought I'm not sure how
> > complete/up-to-date it is:
> > 
> > http://jj2000.epfl.ch/
> > 
> > Maybe we need a JPEG 2000 page on the OSGeo wiki.
> 
> Note that "JPEG 2000 support" is different from "JPEG 2000 support
> which
> works on geo-sized images." The tiling (or 'paging'? as Michael calls
> it) support that's supposed to be provided by OpenJPEG2000 has been
> coming 'real soon now' for about 18 months now from my uneducated
> observations, and until it's there, most tools using Ope

RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats andProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Michael P. Gerlek]

> 10:1 compression rates without noticeable image quality reductions,

For some appropriate, workflow-specific definition of "noticeable".

Everything is a tradeoff.  I always tell people to run their own tests with 
their own datasets to determine what sort of quality they will achieve and what 
their users' workflows will require.

-mpg


-Original Message-
From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] 
On Behalf Of Paul Ramsey
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 11:36 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats 
andProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

So hung up on wavelets, we are.

Internally tiled TIFF with JPEG compression and similarly formatted
internal overviews can achieve 10:1 compression rates without
noticeable image quality reductions, and as an added bonus can be
decompressed a heck of a lot faster than wavelet-based formats. The
wavelet stuff is k00l, in that there is no need for an overview
pyramid (it's implicit in the compression math) and much higher
compression rates can be achieved. But operationally, you can go a
long way with the more primitive (open image format + open compression
algorithm) approach.

P.
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File FormatsandProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Michael P. Gerlek]

> Someone earlier in this thread spoke about some of these technologies 
> being somewhat obsolete what with the new network and bandwidth speeds 
> available for publishing.

I think the comment was that by hiding the data behind a server, you can reduce 
the users' exposure to a myriad of file formats, some possibly proprietary.  
It's a good point.

You still need to store the data on the servers, though, so the technologies 
themselves are by no means obsolete -- it's just a question of who has to deal 
with them.

-mpg





From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] 
On Behalf Of Bob Basques
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 12:28 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions; Ivan Lucena
Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File 
FormatsandProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

All, 

Can someone remind me again, are we talking about saving space, or making it 
easier to implement something . . .  :c) 

I personally prefer nice simple internal pyramided tiles with indexing, about 
10% extra space, and very good performance. 

Someone earlier in this thread spoke about some of these technologies being 
somewhat obsolete what with the new network and bandwidth speeds available for 
publishing. 

bobb 



>>> "Lucena, Ivan"  wrote:
But you can't compress data types other than byte in JPG. Can you do that in 
JP2K?


>  ---Original Message---
>  From: Landon Blake 
>  Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open 
>FileFormatsandProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
>  Sent: Aug 21 '09 12:42
> 
>  Paul,
> 
>  I was wondering the same thing.
> 
>  It seems a little like choosing to drive a Honda Accord, or a Ferrari.
>  The Ferrari is a lot faster and comes with a better looking trophy wife
>  (or husband), but the Honda is a lot easier to fix. (Try finding an
>  affordable Ferrari mechanic in Stockton, California.)
> 
>  To tie this back into our original discussion, it seems like the
>  government should be choosing to drive a Honda Accord when it can,
>  instead of the Ferrari.
> 
>  I guess you'd really have to crunch the numbers and see if the savings
>  in bandwidth/disk space costs were really worth the compression savings
>  that result from a proprietary compression scheme ("wavelet black
>  magic").
> 
>  The problem with this is a lot of the benefits that come from the Honda
>  Accord (open image format + open compression algorithm) aren't easily
>  calculated in dollars and cents.
> 
>  Still, this speaks to an important truth I have discovered in open
>  source development: Simple is better, even when it isn't necessarily
>  faster and smaller.
> 
>  I'd rather have code that I can understand, or a file format that a
>  programmer in 20 years will understand, than a Ferrari you can't drive
>  unless you have a PHD and did a thesis on wavelet compression. :]
> 
>  Landon
>  Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268
>  Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658
> 
> 
> 
>  -Original Message-
>  From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org
>  [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Paul Ramsey
>  Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 10:36 AM
>  To: OSGeo Discussions
>  Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File
>  FormatsandProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
> 
>  So hung up on wavelets, we are.
> 
>  Internally tiled TIFF with JPEG compression and similarly formatted
>  internal overviews can achieve 10:1 compression rates without
>  noticeable image quality reductions, and as an added bonus can be
>  decompressed a heck of a lot faster than wavelet-based formats. The
>  wavelet stuff is k00l, in that there is no need for an overview
>  pyramid (it's implicit in the compression math) and much higher
>  compression rates can be achieved. But operationally, you can go a
>  long way with the more primitive (open image format + open compression
>  algorithm) approach.
> 
>  P.
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