Re: Moving database backends out of the core

Hi Shai, Thank you. You make a very good point. That is exactly what I meant. I have written small backends myself to add new features. The problem is that those features rarely make it into the core backend, because those are too static inside Django. Best -Joe On 28. Nov 2018, 00:33 +0100,

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

Hi, On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 00:57:04 -0800 (PST) Johannes Hoppe wrote: > I want to address a completely different point, and that > *innovation*. I believe that 3rd party backends could lead to more > innovation in the Django ORM. > Currently if you want to introduce a new feature for your

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

How about we do pretend like we want to remove the backends from core and do the homework and refactor the backends to be less intertwined but keep them in the same repo/package. Maybe that’s how we can have the best of both worlds. It is going to be harder to motivate people to put in the work

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

I think this would only work if most database specific backends were maintained by the djangoproject itself, allowing for integration tests that test compatibility. To my mind, a strong ORM to backend API is a great thing, but we also need stronger backend integration tests. -- You received

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 10:49 AM Tom Forbes wrote: > On your point about non-standard backends, maybe we should focus on making > it easier to add third party backends and standardize some of the > internals? We could treat the backend as external (i.e no special hacks for > them) but keep them

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

I see where you are coming from, but I'm not sure it will have the intended effect. One of the great things about Django is that for the most part database features work everywhere. If we split them out there will be more innovation, sure, but we may loose the 'database transparency' we currently

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

I want to address a completely different point, and that *innovation*. I believe that 3rd party backends could lead to more innovation in the Django ORM. Currently if you want to introduce a new feature for your database, you are faced with a lot of complications added by databases you might

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

My organization just hit a use case where we need MS-SQL support. I am jumping on board, so there are at least two of us who can do maintenance. I must say that I would prefer quasi-supported status (akin to admin and geodjango) rather than actually being in the core. I think it would be a

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 4:58 AM, VernonCole wrote: > But will this situation ever exist in real life? I don't think so. I > suspect that any heavy-use shops will also be using Windows to run their > django servers. to me, that reads "heavy clients of MSSQL have to run

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

On Friday, March 8, 2013 4:43:20 PM UTC-7, Florian Apolloner wrote: > > On Friday, March 8, 2013 3:35:53 PM UTC+1, Michael Manfre wrote: >> >> If we have MSSQL in core I'd really like to be able to talk with it from >> a Linux machine too, it would also make testing easier since we'd just need

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

[My reply is below, after the question... scan down. VDC] On Friday, March 8, 2013 7:33:27 AM UTC-7, Javier Guerra wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 4:25 AM, VernonCole > wrote: > > People tend to think of ADO as only talking to Microsoft databases. > Nothing > > could

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

On Friday, March 8, 2013 3:35:53 PM UTC+1, Michael Manfre wrote: > > If we have MSSQL in core I'd really like to be able to talk with it from a > Linux machine too, it would also make testing easier since we'd just need a > VBox with MSSQL ;) Supporting a commercially available product but >

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 9:33 AM, Javier Guerra Giraldez wrote: > On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 4:25 AM, VernonCole wrote: > > People tend to think of ADO as only talking to Microsoft databases. > Nothing > > could be farther from the truth. When maintaining

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 6:35 AM, Florian Apolloner wrote: > What's the state of http://code.google.com/p/pymssql/ ? > Their stable release relies upon a no longer supported Microsoft driver and has some known issues that make it unusable (lack of MARS support being the

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 4:25 AM, VernonCole wrote: > People tend to think of ADO as only talking to Microsoft databases. Nothing > could be farther from the truth. When maintaining adodbapi, I normally test > against MS-SQL Server, Microsoft "Jet" (a.k.a. ACCESS), MySQL,

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

Hi, On Friday, March 8, 2013 4:24:00 AM UTC+1, Michael Manfre wrote: > > django-mssql is actively maintained and will be for at least the next few > years because it's used for my employer's production site that is critical > to business operations. The backend also supports stored procedures

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

I would love to volunteer for the project of MSSQL support. It happens that django-mssql uses a fork of my adodbapi v2.1 code. I pulled those changes back into the main branch of adodbapi (and did a lot of useful refactoring thanks to the good work done on the fork) at version 2.3.

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

As for me, wearing my FOSS-only developper hat, I'd suggest we only include backends in core for products having an OSI-approved license. And yes, the Oracle backend is already problematic at this regard. That would mean I'm -0 to -1 for including any other db backend (or any other component)

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

Huh?? I am running sqlite with GIS on my laptop right now. It wasn't THAT hard to install. Yes, the documentation could use some cleanup, but it got me through the tutorial okay and gives me a platform to learn GIS on. I really support the idea of sqlite and postgres in the core and moving

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Russell Keith-Magee wrote: > I completely agree with Jacob's analysis of the status quo, and I agree > largely with his position on having MSSQL in the core. > > I'd have no problem seeing MSSQL in the core - it's at least as high >

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 7:57 AM, Alex Ogier wrote: > Here's something I've been thinking about: > > As a rule, assuming that backends are not bug-riddled and do not have > needlessly shoddy performance, nearly all of the value of an ORM is in the > set of frontend features

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

Here's something I've been thinking about: As a rule, assuming that backends are not bug-riddled and do not have needlessly shoddy performance, nearly all of the value of an ORM is in the set of frontend features it exposes to application developers. Given a certain frontend API, then the only

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

Hi all, It seems to me we are mixing a few different discussions here: 1. Should Django core have as few database backends as possible? 1a. If yes, which ones should stay in Django core? 2. What should we do, if anything, with the current situation where it seems difficult to guarantee the

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

It's worth mentioning that Django appears in the Python Tools for Visual Studio (it's one of the default project templates)[1]. There's recent introductory material on deploying Django applications to Windows Azure[2] and Windows Server 2008[3], though it seems the older material at least

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 3:22 AM, Marc Tamlyn wrote: > I don't know why Oracle is included and MSSQL is not [...] It's essentially because a group of people made a concerted effort to get the Oracle backend up to snuff (around the 1.0 timeline, I think?) and then committed

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

Seems to me that if database backends were separate from Django then the postgres backend would get a long way ahead of the others as much as the other backends would get behind - it's bound to attract the most work and be adding custom fields like hstore, arrays, json... I think this would be

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Florian Apolloner wrote: > On Wednesday, March 6, 2013 3:32:45 PM UTC+1, Michael Manfre wrote: >> >> The lack of data validation is definitely a nogo for production sites, >> but imo sqlite in production is also a nogo. >> > > Right, but

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

Hi, On Wednesday, March 6, 2013 3:32:45 PM UTC+1, Michael Manfre wrote: > > The lack of data validation is definitely a nogo for production sites, but > imo sqlite in production is also a nogo. > Right, but shipping Django with a non production db might send interesting signals to endusers ;)

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

Hi Andre, On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 5:39:29 PM UTC-5, Andre Terra wrote: > > If I may weigh in on the matter as an outsider, if we consider "The Django > Project" as a "business", insofar as it aims to have as many users and be > as ubiquitous as possible, there's considerable value in having

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 5:01:01 PM UTC-5, Florian Apolloner wrote: > > Hi Shai, > > On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 10:32:29 PM UTC+1, Shai Berger wrote: >> >> In recent years, I have been the main contributor to South's MSSQL and >> Oracle >> backends. I am biased towards having MSSQL treated as

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 3:31:59 PM UTC-5, Florian Apolloner wrote: > > Hi, > > While I agree that moving database adapters out of core has some merit, I > don't think that having sqlite as a reference implementation is a good > idea: For one some features are somewhat hacky in sqlite (and

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

Hi Andre, On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 11:39:29 PM UTC+1, Andre Terra wrote: > > but at work I'm restricted to corporate rules, MS SQL or Oracle, and > Windows. Right, that's probably one of the reasons why Oracle is in core (aside from the fact that we were completely monolithic at that

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

On 5 mars 2013, at 20:35, Michael Manfre wrote: > - Less popular database backends may get left behind To be honest, I wouldn't make any effort to keep the MySQL and Oracle backends at feature-parity with PostgreSQL and SQLite if they weren't in core. -- Aymeric. --

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

Hi Florian, On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Florian Apolloner wrote: > I am obviously biased against postgres as my previous post indicated, but > regardless of that I think that MSSQL should stay outside of core. No > core-developer I know actually uses Windows as base OS

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

Le mardi 5 mars 2013 20:35:07 UTC+1, Michael Manfre a écrit : > > Full disclosure, I maintain django-mssql and am biased toward having all > database backends treated as if they were 3rd party backends. > The question is, how monolithic do we want to have Django? If we would move database

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 11:01:01 PM UTC+1, Florian Apolloner wrote: > > I am obviously biased against postgres as my previous post indicated, but > regardless of that I think that MSSQL should stay outside of core. No > core-developer I know actually uses Windows as base OS and to my

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

Hi Shai, On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 10:32:29 PM UTC+1, Shai Berger wrote: > > In recent years, I have been the main contributor to South's MSSQL and > Oracle > backends. I am biased towards having MSSQL treated as an equal to the > database > systems supported in core, but also towards support

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

Hi, On Tuesday 05 March 2013, Michael Manfre wrote: > Full disclosure, I maintain django-mssql and am biased toward having all > database backends treated as if they were 3rd party backends. > In recent years, I have been the main contributor to South's MSSQL and Oracle backends. I am biased

Re: Moving database backends out of the core

Hi, On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 8:35:07 PM UTC+1, Michael Manfre wrote: > > The current discussion about "Switch to database-level autocommit" ( > http://bit.ly/ZlVERI) reminded me of a past discussion regarding moving > the database backends out of the core. I don't re

Moving database backends out of the core

Full disclosure, I maintain django-mssql and am biased toward having all database backends treated as if they were 3rd party backends. The current discussion about "Switch to database-level autocommit" ( http://bit.ly/ZlVERI) reminded me of a past discussion regarding moving the databas