Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[Peter Olson]

> On November 13, 2015 at 11:05 AM Steve Litt  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:23:22 -0500
> Miles Fidelman  wrote:
> > 
> > On 11/12/15 1:54 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> > > On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:57:19 +0300
> > > Mitt Green  wrote:
> 
> > >
> > > "Greybeards" and "neckbeards" are characterizations whose
> > > connotation is deliberately "people stuck in their ways, afraid of
> > > change, no longer relevant, no longer innovating." This has
> > > *especially* come to the forefront during the systemd foolishness.
 [snip]
> OK, I understand that logic. So let me rephrase...
> 
> The words "greybeard" and "neckbeard" are used, by systemd fanboys, to
> strawman the conversation away from monolithic entanglement,
 [snip]
> Proud or not, you don't want to assist the systemd marketeers in
> shutting down discussion about systemd's architecture, do you?

"discussion about systemd's architecture"

I have to smile ... what discussion? :-(

I wonder if Lennart's birth day occurred in positive time() or negative time() ?

Peter Olson (grey going on white)
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Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 11:20:42 -0500 (EST)
Peter Olson  wrote:

> > On November 13, 2015 at 11:05 AM Steve Litt
> >  wrote:

> > Proud or not, you don't want to assist the systemd marketeers in
> > shutting down discussion about systemd's architecture, do you?
> 
> "discussion about systemd's architecture"
> 
> I have to smile ... what discussion? :-(

This discussion:

http://troubleshooters.com/linux/systemd/lol_systemd.htm

/* Litt ducks and runs */
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Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:23:22 -0500
Miles Fidelman  wrote:

> 
> 
> On 11/12/15 1:54 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> > On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:57:19 +0300
> > Mitt Green  wrote:

> >
> > "Greybeards" and "neckbeards" are characterizations whose
> > connotation is deliberately "people stuck in their ways, afraid of
> > change, no longer relevant, no longer innovating." This has
> > *especially* come to the forefront during the systemd foolishness.
> >
> > Additionally, "greybeards" and "neckbeards" pretty much literally
> > mean "old people", and give credence to the belief that old people
> > can't code, can't tech, should be put out to pasture. It's this
> > very belief that motivates organizations to refuse to hire those
> > over 50, regardless of past or current accomplishments, going so
> > far as to pay a premium to offshore rent-a-programmers rather than
> > snagging one of the glut of skilled over 50 technologists.
> >
> >
> Hey... I resemble that remark.  I'm a greybeard and proud of it.  In
> my neck of the woods (networking) it's a mark of distinction, and a 
> credential that's jealously guarded.  (I'm also 61, and just
> remember, 60 is the new 40.  Never had a problem getting hired - as I
> say, greybeard is a respected credential.)
> 
> Miles Fidelman

OK, I understand that logic. So let me rephrase...

The words "greybeard" and "neckbeard" are used, by systemd fanboys, to
strawman the conversation away from monolithic entanglement, moving the
conversation to human age, thus shutting down arguments against
systemd. And in a great many cases, it's effective, as witnessed by the
ever increasing number of systemd dwobes using these words.

Proud or not, you don't want to assist the systemd marketeers in
shutting down discussion about systemd's architecture, do you?

SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[aitor_czr]

I wish we had Daniel Baumann with us :)

Aitor.

On 11/12/2015 11:40 PM, Hendrik Boom  wrote:

I thought I should mention, before the towel is irretrievably lost, that
you'd probably find a welcome in the devuan project.  We tend to
respect developers.  I thnk you'd find a devuan live CD more to your
liking, given current politics.  I'll follow with a recent post
on the devuan mailing list.

I've CC'd the devuan mailing list.  Devuan is on its way to be the new
upstream that is what Debian once was.

--hendrik


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Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Am Freitag, 13. November 2015 schrieb Steve Litt:
> Proud or not, you don't want to assist the systemd marketeers in
> shutting down discussion about systemd's architecture, do you?
Well, you could use "crunchy-granola" for systemd fanboy ;-)

Nik

-- 
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with 
the NSA.

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Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[Hendrik Boom]

I thought I should mention, before the towel is irretrievably lost, that 
you'd probably find a welcome in the devuan project.  We tend to 
respect developers.  I thnk you'd find a devuan live CD more to your 
liking, given current politics.  I'll follow with a recent post 
on the devuan mailing list.

I've CC'd the devuan mailing list.  Devuan is on its way to be the new 
upstream that is what Debian once was.

--hendrik

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 02:50:27AM +, 
Go Linux wrote:
> On Wed, 11/11/15, Wim <object...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>  Subject: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?
>  To: Dng@lists.dyne.org
>  Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2015, 8:34 PM
>  
>  Hi,
>  
>  This popped up:
>  https://lists.debian.org/debian-live/2015/11/msg00024.html
>  
>  Another dev throws in the towel under pressure.
>  The list of downstream distro's is long...
>  Cheers,
>  Wim
> 
> 
> 
> This from the discussion on the refracta forum:
> 
> "Refracta Snapshot, Refracta live images and most Debian "variants" exist 
> thanks to Debian Live, which was actually designed and maintained to support 
> such flexibility.
> 
> Maybe that's what the mainstream Debian (quote) "Cabal" doesn't like."
> 
> I think Devuan should offer this project a new home where their work would be 
> appreciated and respected.  :)
> 
> golinux
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Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[Rainer Weikusat]

Steve Litt  writes:
> On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:57:19 +0300
> Mitt Green  wrote:

[...]

> :s/greybeards/experienced people having a clue/
>
> I'm not saying the following in anger. I'm simply saying it so we don't
> accidentally shoot ourselves in the foot...
>
> "Greybeards" and "neckbeards" are characterizations whose connotation
> is deliberately "people stuck in their ways, afraid of change, no
> longer relevant, no longer innovating." This has *especially* come to
> the forefront during the systemd foolishness.
>
> Additionally, "greybeards" and "neckbeards" pretty much literally mean
> "old people", and give credence to the belief that

[...]

If I may add my 0.02 kujambel[*] here: Just because someone sets a trap
for you doesn't mean you have to jump into it with both feet. Whatever
the discussion happened to be, common prejudices about "people with a
certain hair colour" were certainly not genuinlely related to it, IOW,
derogative allusions of this kind are meant to distract from the issue
under discussion in favour of "discussing" alleged character/
personality defects of the participiants, ideally provoking them to
become emotionally defensive so that the actual topic ends up being
buried by the noise made by people yelling at each other.

[*] German navy slang, ca. 1992, for "whatever the name of the foreign
currency of the day happens to be".
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Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[Edward Bartolo]

When I am faced with a situation where people try to emotionally
manipulate and distabilise others, one ugly question comes to my mind:
'As a species, have human beings really reached civility or are they
still living with a different form of the rule of the jungle?'

Edward

On 13/11/2015, Miles Fidelman  wrote:
>
>
> On 11/12/15 1:54 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:57:19 +0300
>> Mitt Green  wrote:
>>
>>> ‎I wonder how many people that use Debian for quite long time (since
>>> 90s or the beginning of this millennium) really like systemd, GNOME3
>>> and all these controversial things. I haven't met any. And even more,
>>> most "greybeards" that I've seen oppose it. Seems like they don't have
>>> a right to vote.
>> :s/greybeards/experienced people having a clue/
>>
>> I'm not saying the following in anger. I'm simply saying it so we don't
>> accidentally shoot ourselves in the foot...
>>
>> "Greybeards" and "neckbeards" are characterizations whose connotation
>> is deliberately "people stuck in their ways, afraid of change, no
>> longer relevant, no longer innovating." This has *especially* come to
>> the forefront during the systemd foolishness.
>>
>> Additionally, "greybeards" and "neckbeards" pretty much literally mean
>> "old people", and give credence to the belief that old people can't
>> code, can't tech, should be put out to pasture. It's this very belief
>> that motivates organizations to refuse to hire those over 50,
>> regardless of past or current accomplishments, going so far as to pay a
>> premium to offshore rent-a-programmers rather than snagging one of the
>> glut of skilled over 50 technologists.
>>
>>
> Hey... I resemble that remark.  I'm a greybeard and proud of it.  In my
> neck of the woods (networking) it's a mark of distinction, and a
> credential that's jealously guarded.  (I'm also 61, and just remember,
> 60 is the new 40.  Never had a problem getting hired - as I say,
> greybeard is a respected credential.)
>
> Miles Fidelman
>
> --
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra
>
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Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[Mitt Green]

‎I wonder how many people that use Debian for quite long time (since 90s or
the beginning of this millennium) really like systemd, GNOME3
and all these controversial things. I haven't met any. And even more,
most "greybeards" that I've seen oppose it. Seems like they don't have
a right to vote.

Debian is Fedora already, assuming Red Hat is taking control
of the whole system in a known way. Red Hat is 2010s Novell.

By the way, each time Fedora comes, I try LiveCD with it, GNOME3, Workstation
as they call it. Each time it fails, freezing in either boot stage, while 
copying
data, while doing usual tasks with GUI. Their package management is slow,
adding repositories is just painful. And finding stuff in GNOME3 is
ridiculous.

Some, such as NetBSD, still have GNOME2 in repositories (pkgsrc
in NetBSD case).

My two cents,

Mitt

‎-

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Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[Fernando M. Maresca]

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 11:12:02PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
 
> From the day I arrived in Debianland, around 1/1/2014, Debian seemed to
> me to be, in the words of Lennart Poettering, "quite a sick place to be
> in.". Before I'd heard about systemd, I'd already /dev/nulled about 8
> Debianistas because of their uniform nasty response to everything. Then
> the civil war began.
> 
> Perhaps Debian was destined to be replaced anyway, systemd or no
> systemd.


I'm using Debian since '99 and although not involved as developer,
''ve been following -devel and -users and a couple more list pretty
close all these years (still am).

Since sometime circa 2010 or so the Debian developer community has been
more and more dominated by people with a strong sense of property over
the project and a marked disregard for others contributors. There is an
atmosphere of aggressiveness and do-it-my-way-or-get-out-of-my-lawn,
supposedly to increase Debian quality.

However, in those years Debian became more bloated, slow, complicated
and runs on less hardware than say, squeeze. It's sad that The Universal
Operating System is less universal release after release. Very sad. 

Iain Learmonth is a sociopath, but is very active and had invested many
hours into making himself a prominent DD; his aiming high in the project
and will probably be successful. 

Debian is going to be another Fedora in a couple of releases with these
people leading it. 

Best regards.


-- 
Fernando M. Maresca
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Cel: 221 15 545 8196
Tel: 221 450 5378
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Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:03:31 +0300
Mitt Green  wrote:

> I meant it in a good way if there is, like "most experienced,
> mature, knows everything", not to insult someone.
> 
> Veteran is a good word for it actually (-:

I was pretty sure you did, Mitt. I just wanted to make sure those
particular words don't get used by technologists.

There are certain words designed to lower the salaries of
technologists. The #1 word I can think of is "techies", whose
implication is this is some coding savant you can't let near humans, so
we can't pay him near as much as we pay the soshes and suits. 
"Greybeard" is another one.

By the way, my use of "soshes" and "suits" is just as bad as graybeard
and techie: It just makes light of a different set of employees, and I
probably shouldn't have used it, but it was the best way I knew to draw
the contrast.

But yeah, I knew you didn't mean it in a bad way. I've been called that
stuff in a bad way, and the distinction is immediately obvious.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[Fernando M. Maresca]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 04:57:19PM +0300, Mitt Green wrote:
> ‎I wonder how many people that use Debian for quite long time (since 90s or
> the beginning of this millennium) really like systemd, GNOME3
> and all these controversial things. I haven't met any. And even more,
> most "greybeards" that I've seen oppose it. Seems like they don't have
> a right to vote.


I didn't use any of those ever.  I was using WindowMaker, then
fluxbox/openbox, now awesome wm. I don't care for eye candy.

> 
> Debian is Fedora already, assuming Red Hat is taking control
> of the whole system in a known way. Red Hat is 2010s Novell.

I know, and that's the reason I did not mentioned Red Hat. I think that
the current Debian DD leaders resigned the right and the privilege to
create a real Universal OS to follow the decision made in another
place. Just like Fedora maintainers do.

> 
> By the way, each time Fedora comes, I try LiveCD with it, GNOME3, Workstation
> as they call it. Each time it fails, freezing in either boot stage, while 
> copying
> data, while doing usual tasks with GUI. Their package management is slow,
> adding repositories is just painful. And finding stuff in GNOME3 is
> ridiculous.

Gnome is a monstrosity. xfce is enough even for my uncle. 

Regards

-- 
Fernando M. Maresca
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Cel: 221 15 545 8196
Tel: 221 450 5378
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Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:57:19 +0300
Mitt Green  wrote:

> ‎I wonder how many people that use Debian for quite long time (since
> 90s or the beginning of this millennium) really like systemd, GNOME3
> and all these controversial things. I haven't met any. And even more,
> most "greybeards" that I've seen oppose it. Seems like they don't have
> a right to vote.

:s/greybeards/experienced people having a clue/

I'm not saying the following in anger. I'm simply saying it so we don't
accidentally shoot ourselves in the foot...

"Greybeards" and "neckbeards" are characterizations whose connotation
is deliberately "people stuck in their ways, afraid of change, no
longer relevant, no longer innovating." This has *especially* come to
the forefront during the systemd foolishness.

Additionally, "greybeards" and "neckbeards" pretty much literally mean
"old people", and give credence to the belief that old people can't
code, can't tech, should be put out to pasture. It's this very belief
that motivates organizations to refuse to hire those over 50,
regardless of past or current accomplishments, going so far as to pay a
premium to offshore rent-a-programmers rather than snagging one of the
glut of skilled over 50 technologists.

We should leave words like "greybeard", "neckbeard", and "afraid of
change" to the debian-user mailing list.

Last but not least: The first body text currently on http://devuan.org
says:

"Dear Init Freedom lovers, the Veteran Unix Admin collective salutes
you!"

THAT'S how experience is best portrayed.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[Mitt Green]

I meant it in a good way if there is, like "most experienced,
mature, knows everything", not to insult someone.

Veteran is a good word for it actually (-:
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Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[Nate Bargmann]

Reading some of the links left me about speechless.  I seem to recall a
time when Debian actions were open to all involved.  The requests for
clarification of the discussions supposedly leading to the creation of
live-build-ng in bug 804315 went unanswered.

Besides being heavy-handed and rude, it appears that cooperation in
Debian has hit an historic low.  This is quite sad and quite the
contrast from the Debian Project I began to follow in 1996.

I guess it is time for me to follow the document posted within the past
several days and simply transition my Jessie boxes to Devuan.  I'd been
waiting for at least an RC before doing so, but seeing this sort of
poisonous action taking place leads me to consider that Debian may no
longer be a trustworthy project to download software from.

- Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us
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Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 03:34:37 +0100
Wim  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> 
> This popped up:
> 
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-live/2015/11/msg00024.html
> 
> Another dev throws in the towel under pressure. The list of downstream
> distro's is long...
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Wim

From the day I arrived in Debianland, around 1/1/2014, Debian seemed to
me to be, in the words of Lennart Poettering, "quite a sick place to be
in.". Before I'd heard about systemd, I'd already /dev/nulled about 8
Debianistas because of their uniform nasty response to everything. Then
the civil war began.

Perhaps Debian was destined to be replaced anyway, systemd or no
systemd.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[Daniel Reurich]

On 12/11/15 16:26, Nate Bargmann wrote:

Reading some of the links left me about speechless.  I seem to recall a
time when Debian actions were open to all involved.  The requests for
clarification of the discussions supposedly leading to the creation of
live-build-ng in bug 804315 went unanswered.

Besides being heavy-handed and rude, it appears that cooperation in
Debian has hit an historic low.  This is quite sad and quite the
contrast from the Debian Project I began to follow in 1996.


Just bear in mind there was a (partial) retraction and renaming of 
live-build-ng to live-wrapper.


see: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2015/11/msg00132.html



I guess it is time for me to follow the document posted within the past
several days and simply transition my Jessie boxes to Devuan.  I'd been
waiting for at least an RC before doing so, but seeing this sort of
poisonous action taking place leads me to consider that Debian may no
longer be a trustworthy project to download software from.


We're working on getting a Beta out very soon.


--
Daniel Reurich
Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd.
021 797 722
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Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[Go Linux]

On Wed, 11/11/15, Wim <object...@gmail.com> wrote:

 Subject: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?
 To: Dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2015, 8:34 PM
 
 Hi,
 
 This popped up:
 https://lists.debian.org/debian-live/2015/11/msg00024.html
 
 Another dev throws in the towel under pressure.
 The list of downstream distro's is long...
 Cheers,
 Wim



This from the discussion on the refracta forum:

"Refracta Snapshot, Refracta live images and most Debian "variants" exist 
thanks to Debian Live, which was actually designed and maintained to support 
such flexibility.

Maybe that's what the mainstream Debian (quote) "Cabal" doesn't like."

I think Devuan should offer this project a new home where their work would be 
appreciated and respected.  :)

golinux
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[DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[Wim]

Hi,


This popped up:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-live/2015/11/msg00024.html

Another dev throws in the towel under pressure. The list of downstream
distro's is long...

Cheers,

Wim
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