Re: [libreoffice-documentation] problem w/Base Handbook

2014-08-30 Thread Robert Großkopf
Hi Alan,

hope I understand most you have written the right way. My
English-knowledge is very special.
 
 I'm updating the English translation of the Base Handbook from 3.5 to 
 4.2, and have run across a problem concerning which I'd appreciate some 
 advice and feedback.
 
 In Chapter 3, Tables, the section following the heading *Creating 
 Tables/Creation using the GUI* begins as follows:
 
 Database creation using the GUI is described in detail in Chapter 8, 
 Getting Started with Base, in the /Getting Started with LibreOffice/ 
 book. Therefore only the main sources of error are described here.
 
 The problem is that [the first sentence of] that statement is just plain 
 false.

I have written most of the Base-Handbuch. The Getting Started with
Base in German isn't the same as in English. Could be better to delete
anything which relates to Getting started ...

And this is a special problem with most of the content here. Creating a
Database with wizards (incl. queries, forms ...) and creating databases
directly by using the GUI is declared in the German Getting started
... This problem will be solved a littel bit with the German
Base-Handbuch 4.3. There is a example added. For the English
Base-handbook it would be better to add the German Getting-started as
attachment to the Base-handbook.

Regards

Robert

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] problem w/Base Handbook

2014-08-30 Thread Tom Davies
Hi :)
Ahh, i thought this was going to be done by only re-translating the bits
that changed rather than starting from scratch each time?  I think starting
from scratch occasionally might be a good idea to make sure everything
really is covered.

Now the question is whether to do the polishing off to Hazel's work on the
4.2, or abandon that or to update her work for the 4.3 and then do the
polishing off after the updating is done.

I thought we had just agreed that the only change between the 4.2 German
Handbook and the 4.3 is the addition of just 1 more full example?
Regards from
Tom :)



On 30 August 2014 08:43, Robert Großkopf rob...@familiegrosskopf.de wrote:

 Hi Alan,

 hope I understand most you have written the right way. My
 English-knowledge is very special.
 
  I'm updating the English translation of the Base Handbook from 3.5 to
  4.2, and have run across a problem concerning which I'd appreciate some
  advice and feedback.
 
  In Chapter 3, Tables, the section following the heading *Creating
  Tables/Creation using the GUI* begins as follows:
 
  Database creation using the GUI is described in detail in Chapter 8,
  Getting Started with Base, in the /Getting Started with LibreOffice/
  book. Therefore only the main sources of error are described here.
 
  The problem is that [the first sentence of] that statement is just plain
  false.

 I have written most of the Base-Handbuch. The Getting Started with
 Base in German isn't the same as in English. Could be better to delete
 anything which relates to Getting started ...

 And this is a special problem with most of the content here. Creating a
 Database with wizards (incl. queries, forms ...) and creating databases
 directly by using the GUI is declared in the German Getting started
 ... This problem will be solved a littel bit with the German
 Base-Handbuch 4.3. There is a example added. For the English
 Base-handbook it would be better to add the German Getting-started as
 attachment to the Base-handbook.

 Regards

 Robert

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] problem w/Base Handbook

2014-08-30 Thread Robert Großkopf
Hi Tom,

 Ahh, i thought this was going to be done by only re-translating the bits
 that changed rather than starting from scratch each time?  I think starting
 from scratch occasionally might be a good idea to make sure everything
 really is covered.
 
 Now the question is whether to do the polishing off to Hazel's work on the
 4.2, or abandon that or to update her work for the 4.3 and then do the
 polishing off after the updating is done.
 
 I thought we had just agreed that the only change between the 4.2 German
 Handbook and the 4.3 is the addition of just 1 more full example?

It isn't a problem of the Version 4.2 of Base Handbuch. It's also a
problem of version 4.3 - the links to Getting started ... are also in
this version.

I will try to solve this with the next version of the Base Handbuch. I
will put some content of the German Getting Started in the
Base-Handbuch and will delete the links to Getting started.

When I wrote the Base-Handbuch I have never thought it would be
translated and would only be a part of the German documentation. Had
also never thought someone will print a book of it...

Regards

Robert

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] problem w/Base Handbook

2014-08-30 Thread Jean Weber
I failed to send this to the list.

On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 10:02 AM, Jean Weber jeanwe...@gmail.com wrote:
 The reason for the discrepancy is that the Getting Started chapter has
 changed since that was written. The previous chapter is now a
 standalone document, which should be referenced here instead of the GS
 chapter. It should be, but isn't, listed on the Publications page of
 the wiki. I'll find where it's gone, and let you know. And I'll list
 it on the wiki page.

 Thanks for catching this.

 --Jean


 On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 8:44 AM, Alan Cook alanc...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hello all,

 I'm updating the English translation of the Base Handbook from 3.5 to 4.2,
 and have run across a problem concerning which I'd appreciate some advice
 and feedback.

 In Chapter 3, Tables, the section following the heading *Creating
 Tables/Creation using the GUI* begins as follows:

 Database creation using the GUI is described in detail in Chapter 8,
 Getting Started with Base, in the /Getting Started with LibreOffice/ book.
 Therefore only the main sources of error are described here.

 The problem is that [the first sentence of] that statement is just plain
 false.

 The GUI offers two ways of creating tables: Use Wizard to Create Table and
 Create Table in Design View. The /Getting Started/ chapter only provides
 instructions for using the Wizard. The Wizard only provides database
 templates with preexisting table and field names. If you want to design a
 database for any purpose other than the ones that the templates cover, it's
 useless.

 So far as I can tell, there are no instructions provided anywhere in our
 documentation on how to create a table in Design View, which seems to me to
 be the method that most users are likely to use. (I could well be wrong
 about this, but if those instructions exist, they aren't located in the most
 logical place to look for them.)

 Moreover, the /Getting Started/ chapter explains only how to create a flat,
 single-table database. (I'm not sure why you'd want to do that rather than
 just use a spreadsheet, but . . . .) The material in the handbook, on the
 other hand, assumes that you're building a relational database with multiple
 tables.

 The reason I can't just ignore the problem is and go on is: The section that
 follows this introduction contains some new material in the German that
 needs to be translated. Translated super-literally, it doesn't make much
 sense. Good technical instructions are directed at the particular situation
 in which the user is going to need those instructions and tailored to the
 user's preexisting knowledge. That context is exactly what the current text
 doesn't provide, and what I need in order to put this stuff into
 comprehensible English.

 Any and all advice appreciated.

 Thanks,
 Alan

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] problem w/Base Handbook

2014-08-30 Thread jonathon
On August 29, 2014 3:44:14 PM PDT, Alan Cook wrote:


The reason I can't just ignore the problem is and go on is: The section
that follows this introduction contains some new material in the German
that needs to be translated. Translated super-literally, it doesn't
make much sense. Good technical instructions are directed at the particular 

Option # 1: Write how to create a database using Design view, wizard, and 
whatever the other mode is;

Option # 2: Include one line stating that it is assumed that the user knows how 
to do whatever is missing from the documentation, but to which explicit 
reference is made;

My recommendation is Option # 2.

jonathon

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] problem w/Base Handbook

2014-08-30 Thread Jean Weber
I failed to send this to the list.

On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 10:41 AM, Jean Weber jeanwe...@gmail.com wrote:
 Found it. I had turned it into a tutorial, titled Creating a
 Relational Database using Base, and it was listed in the HowTo and
 Tutorial section of the Publications page. I have now copied that link
 (and the link to the sample database used in the tutorial) to a spot
 just below the Base Handbook on the Pubs page.

 I'm not sure how best to refer to that tutorial in the Base Handbook
 itself, or whether we should restore the GS with Base chapter to its
 earlier version, or what the least inelegant solution.

 --Jean


 On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 10:21 AM, Jean Weber jeanwe...@gmail.com wrote:
 The GS with Base chapter for LOv4.0 (available on the Publications
 page of the wiki) does cover the Table Design View, but the one for
 v4.2 does not. A quick solution to your immediate problem is to
 explicitly refer to the GS v4.0 chapter.

 --Jean


 On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 10:02 AM, Jean Weber jeanwe...@gmail.com wrote:
 The reason for the discrepancy is that the Getting Started chapter has
 changed since that was written. The previous chapter is now a
 standalone document, which should be referenced here instead of the GS
 chapter. It should be, but isn't, listed on the Publications page of
 the wiki. I'll find where it's gone, and let you know. And I'll list
 it on the wiki page.

 Thanks for catching this.

 --Jean


 On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 8:44 AM, Alan Cook alanc...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hello all,

 I'm updating the English translation of the Base Handbook from 3.5 to 4.2,
 and have run across a problem concerning which I'd appreciate some advice
 and feedback.

 In Chapter 3, Tables, the section following the heading *Creating
 Tables/Creation using the GUI* begins as follows:

 Database creation using the GUI is described in detail in Chapter 8,
 Getting Started with Base, in the /Getting Started with LibreOffice/ 
 book.
 Therefore only the main sources of error are described here.

 The problem is that [the first sentence of] that statement is just plain
 false.

 The GUI offers two ways of creating tables: Use Wizard to Create Table and
 Create Table in Design View. The /Getting Started/ chapter only provides
 instructions for using the Wizard. The Wizard only provides database
 templates with preexisting table and field names. If you want to design a
 database for any purpose other than the ones that the templates cover, it's
 useless.

 So far as I can tell, there are no instructions provided anywhere in our
 documentation on how to create a table in Design View, which seems to me to
 be the method that most users are likely to use. (I could well be wrong
 about this, but if those instructions exist, they aren't located in the 
 most
 logical place to look for them.)

 Moreover, the /Getting Started/ chapter explains only how to create a flat,
 single-table database. (I'm not sure why you'd want to do that rather than
 just use a spreadsheet, but . . . .) The material in the handbook, on the
 other hand, assumes that you're building a relational database with 
 multiple
 tables.

 The reason I can't just ignore the problem is and go on is: The section 
 that
 follows this introduction contains some new material in the German that
 needs to be translated. Translated super-literally, it doesn't make much
 sense. Good technical instructions are directed at the particular situation
 in which the user is going to need those instructions and tailored to the
 user's preexisting knowledge. That context is exactly what the current text
 doesn't provide, and what I need in order to put this stuff into
 comprehensible English.

 Any and all advice appreciated.

 Thanks,
 Alan

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] problem w/Base Handbook

2014-08-30 Thread Jean Weber
I failed to send this to the list.

On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 10:21 AM, Jean Weber jeanwe...@gmail.com wrote:
 The GS with Base chapter for LOv4.0 (available on the Publications
 page of the wiki) does cover the Table Design View, but the one for
 v4.2 does not. A quick solution to your immediate problem is to
 explicitly refer to the GS v4.0 chapter.

 --Jean


 On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 10:02 AM, Jean Weber jeanwe...@gmail.com wrote:
 The reason for the discrepancy is that the Getting Started chapter has
 changed since that was written. The previous chapter is now a
 standalone document, which should be referenced here instead of the GS
 chapter. It should be, but isn't, listed on the Publications page of
 the wiki. I'll find where it's gone, and let you know. And I'll list
 it on the wiki page.

 Thanks for catching this.

 --Jean


 On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 8:44 AM, Alan Cook alanc...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hello all,

 I'm updating the English translation of the Base Handbook from 3.5 to 4.2,
 and have run across a problem concerning which I'd appreciate some advice
 and feedback.

 In Chapter 3, Tables, the section following the heading *Creating
 Tables/Creation using the GUI* begins as follows:

 Database creation using the GUI is described in detail in Chapter 8,
 Getting Started with Base, in the /Getting Started with LibreOffice/ book.
 Therefore only the main sources of error are described here.

 The problem is that [the first sentence of] that statement is just plain
 false.

 The GUI offers two ways of creating tables: Use Wizard to Create Table and
 Create Table in Design View. The /Getting Started/ chapter only provides
 instructions for using the Wizard. The Wizard only provides database
 templates with preexisting table and field names. If you want to design a
 database for any purpose other than the ones that the templates cover, it's
 useless.

 So far as I can tell, there are no instructions provided anywhere in our
 documentation on how to create a table in Design View, which seems to me to
 be the method that most users are likely to use. (I could well be wrong
 about this, but if those instructions exist, they aren't located in the most
 logical place to look for them.)

 Moreover, the /Getting Started/ chapter explains only how to create a flat,
 single-table database. (I'm not sure why you'd want to do that rather than
 just use a spreadsheet, but . . . .) The material in the handbook, on the
 other hand, assumes that you're building a relational database with multiple
 tables.

 The reason I can't just ignore the problem is and go on is: The section that
 follows this introduction contains some new material in the German that
 needs to be translated. Translated super-literally, it doesn't make much
 sense. Good technical instructions are directed at the particular situation
 in which the user is going to need those instructions and tailored to the
 user's preexisting knowledge. That context is exactly what the current text
 doesn't provide, and what I need in order to put this stuff into
 comprehensible English.

 Any and all advice appreciated.

 Thanks,
 Alan

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] problem w/Base Handbook

2014-08-30 Thread Jean Weber
Tom, please pay attention. Alan found a problem with references to the
Englsih Getting Started guide, which he did not realise has changed in
GSv4.2. Starting from scratch translating either the German 4.2 or 4.3
Base Handbook into English would not solve the problem because
references from the Base Handbook to the Getting Started Guide would
still be wrong.

I have just forwarded to the list three notes that I had written
earlier but failed to send as reply to all; instead I replied only to
Alan, so everyone else won't have seen them. In the third I mention
where the previous version of the Getting Started chapter is now
located, renamed as a tutorial.

Robert, does the previous English GS chapter, which is now available
as a tutorial, cover the missing info? If so, Alan can just change the
references from GS to the tutorial. Or we could include that tutorial
in the Handbook as an Appendix; that would work too, perhaps better
than sending people to a separate document. But either of those
solutions depends on whether the tutorial covers the necessary info.

--Jean

On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 6:33 PM, Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi :)
 Ahh, i thought this was going to be done by only re-translating the bits
 that changed rather than starting from scratch each time?  I think starting
 from scratch occasionally might be a good idea to make sure everything
 really is covered.

 Now the question is whether to do the polishing off to Hazel's work on the
 4.2, or abandon that or to update her work for the 4.3 and then do the
 polishing off after the updating is done.

 I thought we had just agreed that the only change between the 4.2 German
 Handbook and the 4.3 is the addition of just 1 more full example?
 Regards from
 Tom :)



 On 30 August 2014 08:43, Robert Großkopf rob...@familiegrosskopf.de wrote:

 Hi Alan,

 hope I understand most you have written the right way. My
 English-knowledge is very special.
 
  I'm updating the English translation of the Base Handbook from 3.5 to
  4.2, and have run across a problem concerning which I'd appreciate some
  advice and feedback.
 
  In Chapter 3, Tables, the section following the heading *Creating
  Tables/Creation using the GUI* begins as follows:
 
  Database creation using the GUI is described in detail in Chapter 8,
  Getting Started with Base, in the /Getting Started with LibreOffice/
  book. Therefore only the main sources of error are described here.
 
  The problem is that [the first sentence of] that statement is just plain
  false.

 I have written most of the Base-Handbuch. The Getting Started with
 Base in German isn't the same as in English. Could be better to delete
 anything which relates to Getting started ...

 And this is a special problem with most of the content here. Creating a
 Database with wizards (incl. queries, forms ...) and creating databases
 directly by using the GUI is declared in the German Getting started
 ... This problem will be solved a littel bit with the German
 Base-Handbuch 4.3. There is a example added. For the English
 Base-handbook it would be better to add the German Getting-started as
 attachment to the Base-handbook.

 Regards

 Robert

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] problem w/Base Handbook

2014-08-30 Thread Robert Großkopf
Hi Jean,
 
 Robert, does the previous English GS chapter, which is now available
 as a tutorial, cover the missing info? If so, Alan can just change the
 references from GS to the tutorial. Or we could include that tutorial
 in the Handbook as an Appendix; that would work too, perhaps better
 than sending people to a separate document. But either of those
 solutions depends on whether the tutorial covers the necessary info.

Have downloaded
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/1/13/GS40-GettingStartedLO.pdf.
The Base-chapter is the content, which would be missed in the
Base-handbook (for example: Creating tables in Design View).
So a link to Chapter 8 - Getting started with Base would work also for
Base-Handbook 4.2.

I will find a better solution in the next Base-Handbuch by copying the
missed parts of the German Getting started ... into the chapters of
the Base-Handbuch. Haven't seen the Base-Handbuch as a standalone-book.
Thought it was a continuation of Getting started.

Robert

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] problem w/Base Handbook

2014-08-30 Thread Alan Cook
Whew! I'm afraid it's going to take me a little while to process this 
whole discussion. Thanks, everyone, for your input.


Alan

On 8/30/2014 10:45 AM, Robert Großkopf wrote:

Hi Jean,

Robert, does the previous English GS chapter, which is now available
as a tutorial, cover the missing info? If so, Alan can just change the
references from GS to the tutorial. Or we could include that tutorial
in the Handbook as an Appendix; that would work too, perhaps better
than sending people to a separate document. But either of those
solutions depends on whether the tutorial covers the necessary info.

Have downloaded
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/1/13/GS40-GettingStartedLO.pdf.
The Base-chapter is the content, which would be missed in the
Base-handbook (for example: Creating tables in Design View).
So a link to Chapter 8 - Getting started with Base would work also for
Base-Handbook 4.2.

I will find a better solution in the next Base-Handbuch by copying the
missed parts of the German Getting started ... into the chapters of
the Base-Handbuch. Haven't seen the Base-Handbuch as a standalone-book.
Thought it was a continuation of Getting started.

Robert




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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] problem w/Base Handbook

2014-08-30 Thread Tom Davies
Hi :)
Yeh, sorry!  I thougth we had 2 people working on the Base Handbook and
that 1 of those was duplicating work that has already been done by Hazel
where nothing new has been added since Hazel did her translation.

I didn't realise that redoing work that has already been done was not the
problem and that it was ok to carry on redoing all the rest of the work
that has also already been done.
Regards from
Tom :)




On 30 August 2014 11:13, Jean Weber jeanwe...@gmail.com wrote:

 Tom, please pay attention. Alan found a problem with references to the
 Englsih Getting Started guide, which he did not realise has changed in
 GSv4.2. Starting from scratch translating either the German 4.2 or 4.3
 Base Handbook into English would not solve the problem because
 references from the Base Handbook to the Getting Started Guide would
 still be wrong.

 I have just forwarded to the list three notes that I had written
 earlier but failed to send as reply to all; instead I replied only to
 Alan, so everyone else won't have seen them. In the third I mention
 where the previous version of the Getting Started chapter is now
 located, renamed as a tutorial.

 Robert, does the previous English GS chapter, which is now available
 as a tutorial, cover the missing info? If so, Alan can just change the
 references from GS to the tutorial. Or we could include that tutorial
 in the Handbook as an Appendix; that would work too, perhaps better
 than sending people to a separate document. But either of those
 solutions depends on whether the tutorial covers the necessary info.

 --Jean

 On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 6:33 PM, Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com wrote:
  Hi :)
  Ahh, i thought this was going to be done by only re-translating the bits
  that changed rather than starting from scratch each time?  I think
 starting
  from scratch occasionally might be a good idea to make sure everything
  really is covered.
 
  Now the question is whether to do the polishing off to Hazel's work on
 the
  4.2, or abandon that or to update her work for the 4.3 and then do the
  polishing off after the updating is done.
 
  I thought we had just agreed that the only change between the 4.2 German
  Handbook and the 4.3 is the addition of just 1 more full example?
  Regards from
  Tom :)
 
 
 
  On 30 August 2014 08:43, Robert Großkopf rob...@familiegrosskopf.de
 wrote:
 
  Hi Alan,
 
  hope I understand most you have written the right way. My
  English-knowledge is very special.
  
   I'm updating the English translation of the Base Handbook from 3.5 to
   4.2, and have run across a problem concerning which I'd appreciate
 some
   advice and feedback.
  
   In Chapter 3, Tables, the section following the heading *Creating
   Tables/Creation using the GUI* begins as follows:
  
   Database creation using the GUI is described in detail in Chapter 8,
   Getting Started with Base, in the /Getting Started with LibreOffice/
   book. Therefore only the main sources of error are described here.
  
   The problem is that [the first sentence of] that statement is just
 plain
   false.
 
  I have written most of the Base-Handbuch. The Getting Started with
  Base in German isn't the same as in English. Could be better to delete
  anything which relates to Getting started ...
 
  And this is a special problem with most of the content here. Creating a
  Database with wizards (incl. queries, forms ...) and creating databases
  directly by using the GUI is declared in the German Getting started
  ... This problem will be solved a littel bit with the German
  Base-Handbuch 4.3. There is a example added. For the English
  Base-handbook it would be better to add the German Getting-started as
  attachment to the Base-handbook.
 
  Regards
 
  Robert

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[libreoffice-documentation] duplicated messages from the list

2014-08-30 Thread Milos Sramek
Hi,

I have a problem with this mailing list: I get each message at least
twice, but sometimes even 5 times. The copies do not come together, but
over a poeriod of a few hours. I am on several TDF mailinglists, but
only this one has the problem.

Do you observe the problem too?

thanks
Milos

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