Re: [Elecraft] Amateur Radio Parity Act

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Personal attacks and critiques of the type below are in violation of Elecraft 
list policy. Please cease posts of this type immediately.

Also note that this thread has been officially, and forcefully, closed.

Eric
Moderator
elecraft.com
_..._

> On Aug 11, 2017, at 6:15 AM, Dave Belville  wrote:
> 
> Wow Andy, what a selfish response. 
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Re: [Elecraft] Amateur Radio Parity Act

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

'Gentlemen',

This thread was closed yesterday - in several posts by the moderator (me). 
Further posts on this topic will incur the wrath of the moderator.

Take it off list - now.

73,
Eric
Moderator
elecraft.com
_..._

> On Aug 10, 2017, at 10:32 AM, Jim Brown  wrote:
> 
>> On 8/9/2017 11:12 PM, Erwin Haynes wrote:
>> Having said that -- is this a "all or none" game? Could this bill be a 
>> footstep into future legislation, e.g. with some/all of the the valid issues 
>> that K1VR brings up to be addressed?
> 
> Apparently you did not read K1VR's analysis. He offered several suggestions 
> for crafting a Bill without those issues, but noted that, due to how the 
> legislative process works, it is VERY unlikely that it could be improved, and 
> that IF the Senate were to pass a bill, it would be identical to the House 
> Bill, which has the serious flaws 
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Re: [Elecraft] Amateur Radio Parity Act

[Dave Belville]

Wow Andy, what a selfish response. Suppose no one in the US cared about
working people in England or couldn't because we could not put up an
antenna. Obviously you wouldn't care but there are a lot of people in
England that belong to clubs in the US and actively participate in events.
I worked a gentleman in England that was county hunting in the US. Because
you are "outside the USA" you must not care if he gets the counties he
needs. It's not about " internal politicking". It's about allowing people
to successfully pursue a hobby. A hobby that you obviously enjoy but since
you have what you want, who cares about the rest of the world. I thought
people in your country were friendly and considerate. I hope you are the
exception and not the rule. By the way, it took you more time to write and
send that response than it would to hit the "Delete" button (which is what
I will do with your posts going forward).

Dave
KD9VT

On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 2:52 AM, Andy McMullin  wrote:

> I really thought this thread was closed.
>
> Nobody outside the USA cares about your internal politicking so please
> just give it a rest! Let’s get back to Elecraft and leave the American
> Politics Stuff somewhere else. Please.
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 11 Aug 2017, at 06:53, W B McCarty  wrote:
> >
> > With due respect for those who disagree, it's not about us. I consider
> that
> > the need for a well-crafted Parity Act is NOT ours but a need of our sons
> > and daughters and THEIR sons and daughters, few of whom are parties to
> the
> > contracts to which onerous and often unconstitutionally vague and broad
> > CC&Rs are attached. If more than 80% of the US population is barred from
> > using truly effective HF antennas, the future of amateur radio is in
> doubt.
> > As a consequence, inadequacies in our national communications
> > infrastructure could, in the context of a disaster, multiply serious harm
> > to lives and property. As is often the case in the political realm, we'd
> do
> > well to think a great deal less about ourselves and a great deal more
> about
> > others.
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 11:41 AM, Mark Bayern  wrote:
> >
> >> I guess I get to be the guy posting to a closed thread. ouch!
> >>
>  "FWIW, I DO consider this issue VITAL to anyone who lives in a
> >> restricted housing development, which includes a very high percentage
> of US
> >> hams.
> >>
> >> All of those US hams decided on their own to purchase property in the
> >> restricted area (myself included). I knew what it meant and I'm
> >> willing to 'man up' and abide by the agreement I signed at purchase to
> >> follow the rules. Running to 'daddy' after the fact and claiming it is
> >> VITAL that I be allowed to ignore the rules is not an appropriate
> >> reaction from my POV. If it is that vital don't purchase in such an
> >> area. Sometimes that can be difficult, but sometimes life is
> >> difficult.
> >>
> >> Mark  AD5SS
> >>
> >> any responses by email please!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 12:51 PM, Jim Brown 
> >> wrote:
> >>> On 8/10/2017 10:37 AM, G4GNX wrote:
> 
>  I was under the impression that this thread was CLOSED. Please respect
> >> the
>  list owner's wishes.
> 
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Amateur Radio Parity Act

[Brian D]

Andy McMullin  wrote:

> I really thought this thread was closed.
> 
> Nobody outside the USA cares about your internal politicking so please
> just give it a rest! Let’s get back to Elecraft and leave the American
> Politics Stuff somewhere else. Please.

It is something that affects the rest of the world. Other countries have
similar restrictions and may follow america to tighter (or looser) crippling
of amateur radio.


-- 
Brian D
G3VGZ  YarmEngland
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Re: [Elecraft] Amateur Radio Parity Act

[W B McCarty]

I read the list offline, as I suppose many others do. I've carefully
re-read the received messages in the thread, several times, and I find no
message from a moderator, or anyone else, instructing that the thread be
closed. That said, I readily take Andy at his word that such is the case
and I apologize for prolonging the unwelcome thread. Perhaps various email
clients differently classify the messages that constitute a thread. Thus,
what you see as a thread may differ from what I see as a thread. Or perhaps
the moderator's instruction appeared in another thread, one that I have not
read. I admit that I read only a small fraction of the posted messages.
Oddly, I have NO idea why I happened to read this particular thread. It
actually was noise returned in a search on an unrelated topic.

Cheers,

On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 12:52 AM, Andy McMullin  wrote:

> I really thought this thread was closed.
>
> Nobody outside the USA cares about your internal politicking so please
> just give it a rest! Let’s get back to Elecraft and leave the American
> Politics Stuff somewhere else. Please
>

-- 
Bill McCarty
​, WB6LA
​
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Re: [Elecraft] Amateur Radio Parity Act

[Andy McMullin]

I really thought this thread was closed.

Nobody outside the USA cares about your internal politicking so please just 
give it a rest! Let’s get back to Elecraft and leave the American Politics 
Stuff somewhere else. Please.

Andy






> On 11 Aug 2017, at 06:53, W B McCarty  wrote:
> 
> With due respect for those who disagree, it's not about us. I consider that
> the need for a well-crafted Parity Act is NOT ours but a need of our sons
> and daughters and THEIR sons and daughters, few of whom are parties to the
> contracts to which onerous and often unconstitutionally vague and broad
> CC&Rs are attached. If more than 80% of the US population is barred from
> using truly effective HF antennas, the future of amateur radio is in doubt.
> As a consequence, inadequacies in our national communications
> infrastructure could, in the context of a disaster, multiply serious harm
> to lives and property. As is often the case in the political realm, we'd do
> well to think a great deal less about ourselves and a great deal more about
> others.
> 
> On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 11:41 AM, Mark Bayern  wrote:
> 
>> I guess I get to be the guy posting to a closed thread. ouch!
>> 
 "FWIW, I DO consider this issue VITAL to anyone who lives in a
>> restricted housing development, which includes a very high percentage of US
>> hams.
>> 
>> All of those US hams decided on their own to purchase property in the
>> restricted area (myself included). I knew what it meant and I'm
>> willing to 'man up' and abide by the agreement I signed at purchase to
>> follow the rules. Running to 'daddy' after the fact and claiming it is
>> VITAL that I be allowed to ignore the rules is not an appropriate
>> reaction from my POV. If it is that vital don't purchase in such an
>> area. Sometimes that can be difficult, but sometimes life is
>> difficult.
>> 
>> Mark  AD5SS
>> 
>> any responses by email please!
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 12:51 PM, Jim Brown 
>> wrote:
>>> On 8/10/2017 10:37 AM, G4GNX wrote:
 
 I was under the impression that this thread was CLOSED. Please respect
>> the
 list owner's wishes.
 


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Re: [Elecraft] Amateur Radio Parity Act

[W B McCarty]

With due respect for those who disagree, it's not about us. I consider that
the need for a well-crafted Parity Act is NOT ours but a need of our sons
and daughters and THEIR sons and daughters, few of whom are parties to the
contracts to which onerous and often unconstitutionally vague and broad
CC&Rs are attached. If more than 80% of the US population is barred from
using truly effective HF antennas, the future of amateur radio is in doubt.
As a consequence, inadequacies in our national communications
infrastructure could, in the context of a disaster, multiply serious harm
to lives and property. As is often the case in the political realm, we'd do
well to think a great deal less about ourselves and a great deal more about
others.

On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 11:41 AM, Mark Bayern  wrote:

> I guess I get to be the guy posting to a closed thread. ouch!
>
> >>"FWIW, I DO consider this issue VITAL to anyone who lives in a
> restricted housing development, which includes a very high percentage of US
> hams.
>
> All of those US hams decided on their own to purchase property in the
> restricted area (myself included). I knew what it meant and I'm
> willing to 'man up' and abide by the agreement I signed at purchase to
> follow the rules. Running to 'daddy' after the fact and claiming it is
> VITAL that I be allowed to ignore the rules is not an appropriate
> reaction from my POV. If it is that vital don't purchase in such an
> area. Sometimes that can be difficult, but sometimes life is
> difficult.
>
> Mark  AD5SS
>
> any responses by email please!
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 12:51 PM, Jim Brown 
> wrote:
> > On 8/10/2017 10:37 AM, G4GNX wrote:
> >>
> >> I was under the impression that this thread was CLOSED. Please respect
> the
> >> list owner's wishes.
> >>
> > Note that I posted 6 hours before it was closed. And I posted again
> before
> > getting to the email that closed it.
> >
> > FWIW, I DO consider this issue VITAL to anyone who lives in a restricted
> > housing development, which includes a very high percentage of US hams.
> I'm
> > lucky enough not to be restricted in this manner, but I know a lot of
> hams
> > who are.
> >
> > 73, Jim K9YC
> >
> >
> > __
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> > Message delivered to plcm...@gmail.com
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>



-- 
Bill McCarty

This message was NOT sent using my iPhone or anyone else's iPhone.
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Re: [Elecraft] Amateur Radio Parity Act

[Mark Bayern]

I guess I get to be the guy posting to a closed thread. ouch!

>>"FWIW, I DO consider this issue VITAL to anyone who lives in a restricted 
>>housing development, which includes a very high percentage of US hams.

All of those US hams decided on their own to purchase property in the
restricted area (myself included). I knew what it meant and I'm
willing to 'man up' and abide by the agreement I signed at purchase to
follow the rules. Running to 'daddy' after the fact and claiming it is
VITAL that I be allowed to ignore the rules is not an appropriate
reaction from my POV. If it is that vital don't purchase in such an
area. Sometimes that can be difficult, but sometimes life is
difficult.

Mark  AD5SS

any responses by email please!



On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 12:51 PM, Jim Brown  wrote:
> On 8/10/2017 10:37 AM, G4GNX wrote:
>>
>> I was under the impression that this thread was CLOSED. Please respect the
>> list owner's wishes.
>>
> Note that I posted 6 hours before it was closed. And I posted again before
> getting to the email that closed it.
>
> FWIW, I DO consider this issue VITAL to anyone who lives in a restricted
> housing development, which includes a very high percentage of US hams. I'm
> lucky enough not to be restricted in this manner, but I know a lot of hams
> who are.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Amateur Radio Parity Act

[Jim Brown]

On 8/10/2017 10:37 AM, G4GNX wrote:
I was under the impression that this thread was CLOSED. Please respect 
the list owner's wishes.


Note that I posted 6 hours before it was closed. And I posted again 
before getting to the email that closed it.


FWIW, I DO consider this issue VITAL to anyone who lives in a restricted 
housing development, which includes a very high percentage of US hams. 
I'm lucky enough not to be restricted in this manner, but I know a lot 
of hams who are.


73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] Amateur Radio Parity Act

[G4GNX]

I was under the impression that this thread was CLOSED. Please respect the 
list owner's wishes.


73,

Alan. G4GNX

-Original Message- 
From: Jim Brown

Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 6:32 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Amateur Radio Parity Act

Apparently you did not read K1VR's analysis.. 


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Re: [Elecraft] Amateur Radio Parity Act

[Jim Brown]

On 8/9/2017 11:12 PM, Erwin Haynes wrote:
Having said that -- is this a "all or none" game? Could this bill be a 
footstep into future legislation, e.g. with some/all of the the valid 
issues that K1VR brings up to be addressed?


Apparently you did not read K1VR's analysis. He offered several 
suggestions for crafting a Bill without those issues, but noted that, 
due to how the legislative process works, it is VERY unlikely that it 
could be improved, and that IF the Senate were to pass a bill, it would 
be identical to the House Bill, which has the serious flaws noted.


73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] Amateur radio parity act

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Thread Closed.
73,
Eric
elecraft.com
_..._
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Re: [Elecraft] Amateur radio parity act - Thread Closed

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Thread Closed
73,
Eric
Moderator
elecraft.com
_..._
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Re: [Elecraft] Amateur radio parity act

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Agreed. Thread closed.

In the interest of keeping list volume reasonable, it is lit policy that 
general amateur radio policy and political discussions are not appropriate for 
the reflector. There are a multitude of more appropriate places where these can 
take place.

Please take this topic off list immediately.

73,
Eric
Elecraft Modertor etc.
elecraft.com
_..._



> On Aug 10, 2017, at 5:33 AM, Gmail  wrote:
> 
> I don't think a discussion of this bill is appropriate for this list.
> Ray
> W8LYJ
> 
> Sent from my iPad
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Re: [Elecraft] Amateur radio parity act

[Dave Cole]

I must agree!

73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net

On 08/10/2017 05:33 AM, Gmail wrote:

I don't think a discussion of this bill is appropriate for this list.
Ray
W8LYJ

Sent from my iPad
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Re: [Elecraft] Amateur Radio Parity Act

[John Langdon]

The HOA lobby is good - they got exactly the wording they wanted in this
bill and they got the ARRL to support it. It is not a compromise - it gives
the HOA complete discretion and control.  

My HOA defined reasonable as follows: "A telescoping mast, 30 feet tall when
extended, painted sky blue, must remain fully retracted from 2 hours before
local sunrise until two hours after local sunset, and additional quiet hours
may be imposed if any neighborhood residents complain of interference." This
was considered a gracious compromise on their part, because "all you really
need to communicate world-wide is a hand held walkie talkie." That kind of
thing will be the best compromise available under this bill. 

If this becomes law as written there will be no more details to work,
protests will fall on deaf ears, and the HOA alone will define reasonable.

73 John N5CQ


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Gmail - George
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 7:30 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Amateur Radio Parity Act

A differing view:
Having benefited greatly by the Telecommunications Act of 1996 in my former
professional life, I doubt that the HOA, POA or COA (X owners associations)
have been asleep at the wheel in dealing with antenna issues since then!

Senator Nelsen's defeat of this bill last year for Florida shows just how
powerful the (?) Owners Associations lobbying can be.
My sense in reading the bill is that it may be the best compromise
available. There had to been much mashing of teeth at ARRL for some of the
wording.

If the bill becomes law then we need to be very pro-active with the FCC
during the comment period. The implementing of the law is up to the FCC and
the "devil is in the details" of that implementing. If you ever read the
FCC's Telecommunications Act primer, the FCC left the Associations very
little wiggle room. I doubt Amateur Radio can ever fare as well.

Hopefully Mr. Imlay at ARRL will keep us informed on that issue & how best
to proceed.

73
George AI4VZ

Note that K1VR goes through this with a fine toothed comb, showing both its
inaccuracies and exposing serious problems with the Bill itself.
Although I have no legal training beyond the English language, I find K1VR's
analysis compelling.

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delivered to jlangd...@austin.rr.com

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Re: [Elecraft] Amateur radio parity act

[Dave Belville]

I am sorry guys, I have to disagree with you. From the ARRL website, "The
measure will, for the first time, guarantee all radio amateurs living in
deed-restricted communities governed by a homeowner's association (HOA) or
subject to any private land use regulations, the right to erect and
maintain effective outdoor antennas at their homes".

How is that not relevant to any discussion related to Ham Radio. For those
that it will help, it may mean the difference between being active or
inactive in the hobby. What good would our Elecraft rigs be (I have two of
them) without effective antennas? I am lucky to live in an area where I can
put up anything I want in my yard but some Hams live in areas that are so
restricted that they can't even put an antenna up. They have to drape a
wire off the balcony at night or string something around inside their
shack. I have only one question. If you lived in a restricted area and
could not put up an antenna, would you then think that discussion of this
topic was appropriate in any Ham Radio venue?

I support the bill, have emailed my representatives and think that all Hams
should do the same. The more it is mentioned and discussed, the greater the
chance it will become law. Some of our fellow Hams need this.

Thank you,

If you wish to chastise me, please do it off list.

73

Dave, KD9VT

On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 7:37 AM, Andy McMullin  wrote:

> I agree completely. It’s of limited link to Elecraft and no interest at
> all to most of the world, just to the few that live in parts of the USA.
>
> Regards
> Andy, G8TQH
>
>
> > On 10 Aug 2017, at 13:33, Gmail  wrote:
> >
> > I don't think a discussion of this bill is appropriate for this list.
> > Ray
> > W8LYJ
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> > __
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> > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> >
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> > Message delivered to a...@rickham.net
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Amateur radio parity act

[Bill]

Just the few? Potential lack of antennas effects all in the USA - other 
nations may well follow. I cannot imagine how antenna issues would not 
be of interest on this reflector. If you do not feel concerned - hit the 
delete.


Now back to my cave before I offend someone's tender feelings.


--
Many of life's problems can be solved by simply deciding what
we can do without. - John Dolan

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Re: [Elecraft] Amateur radio parity act

[Andy McMullin]

I agree completely. It’s of limited link to Elecraft and no interest at all to 
most of the world, just to the few that live in parts of the USA.

Regards
Andy, G8TQH


> On 10 Aug 2017, at 13:33, Gmail  wrote:
> 
> I don't think a discussion of this bill is appropriate for this list.
> Ray
> W8LYJ
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> __
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> 
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to a...@rickham.net


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Re: [Elecraft] Amateur Radio Parity Act

[Gmail - George]

A differing view:
Having benefited greatly by the Telecommunications Act of 1996 in my former 
professional life, I doubt that the HOA, POA or COA (X owners associations) 
have been asleep at the wheel in dealing with antenna issues since then!

Senator Nelsen's defeat of this bill last year for Florida shows just how 
powerful the (?) Owners Associations lobbying can be.
My sense in reading the bill is that it may be the best compromise 
available. There had to been much mashing of teeth at ARRL for some of the 
wording.

If the bill becomes law then we need to be very pro-active with the FCC 
during the comment period. The implementing of the law is up to the FCC and 
the "devil is in the details" of that implementing. If you ever read the 
FCC's Telecommunications Act primer, the FCC left the Associations very 
little wiggle room. I doubt Amateur Radio can ever fare as well.

Hopefully Mr. Imlay at ARRL will keep us informed on that issue & how best 
to proceed.

73
George AI4VZ

Note that K1VR goes through this with a fine toothed comb, showing both
its inaccuracies and exposing serious problems with the Bill itself.
Although I have no legal training beyond the English language, I find
K1VR's analysis compelling.

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Re: [Elecraft] Amateur Radio Parity Act

[Bill]

Excellent read that was written by an expert. A true example of giving 
with the big words (chest banging sound bytes etc.) and rhetoric - while 
taking away in the fine print. Written by contractual charlatans selling 
snake oil.


I can see challenges lingering in the courts until the effected hams die 
of old age.


Bill W2BLC K-Line


--
Many of life's problems can be solved by simply deciding what
we can do without. - John Dolan

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Re: [Elecraft] Amateur Radio Parity Act

[Erwin Haynes via Elecraft]

Thanks to all having brought this up!!
I already, based the ARRL President's email, sent my endorsement to my 
Senators. Geez, between working overseas, trying to keep in touch with my state 
and city issues and elections - I guess I just sent my endorsement out for the 
bill based only on ARRL recommendation. Mea Culpa!
However, our ARRL has for the most part always done smart things - from my 
view. It is not easy making everyone happy, all the time. In fact the ARRL is 
us -- just like government, we elect our reps.
Having said that -- is this a "all or none" game? Could this bill be a footstep 
into future legislation, e.g. with some/all of the the valid issues that K1VR 
brings up to be addressed?
Best Regards, ErwinN7EAH

  From: Jim Brown 
 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
 Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 10:02 AM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Amateur Radio Parity Act
   
Note that K1VR goes through this with a fine toothed comb, showing both 
its inaccuracies and exposing serious problems with the Bill itself. 
Although I have no legal training beyond the English language, I find 
K1VR's analysis compelling.

73, Jim K9YC

On 8/9/2017 10:21 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
> robably should add this to keep both sides in the picture.
>
> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/The%20Amateur%20Radio%20Parity%20Act%20FAQ.pdf
>  
>
>

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Re: [Elecraft] Amateur Radio Parity Act

[Jim Brown]

Note that K1VR goes through this with a fine toothed comb, showing both 
its inaccuracies and exposing serious problems with the Bill itself. 
Although I have no legal training beyond the English language, I find 
K1VR's analysis compelling.


73, Jim K9YC

On 8/9/2017 10:21 PM, Dave Cole wrote:

robably should add this to keep both sides in the picture.

http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/The%20Amateur%20Radio%20Parity%20Act%20FAQ.pdf 





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Re: [Elecraft] Amateur Radio Parity Act

[Dave Cole]

Probably should add this to keep both sides in the picture.

http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/The%20Amateur%20Radio%20Parity%20Act%20FAQ.pdf


73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net

On 08/09/2017 07:31 PM, Terry wrote:


How many of you have seen this on current antenna bills before Congress?





Terry, KQ5U

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Re: [Elecraft] Amateur Radio Parity Act

[Jim Brown]

On 8/9/2017 7:31 PM, Terry wrote:

How many of you have seen this on current antenna bills before Congress?




I have. The author, K1VR, is probably the best, most experienced and 
most respected attorney specializing in legal issues associated with 
antenna zoning and permitting. As such, he's seen all of the tricks and 
"gotchas" that can be thrown at you. KE1B, also an attorney, posted to a 
local club reflector strongly endorsing Fred's analysis of the bill.


I attempted to post it to the CQ-Contest reflector and it disappeared 
into the great bit bucket.


73, Jim K9YC


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