Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX audio (was MH2 question)
We are drifting way off the original post question which was related to the K2 and transmit audio. If the discussion is to morph to the K3 and its receive audio, someone needs to change the subject line. The K3 does have the RX EQ which can change the RX audio substantially. The internal speaker is pretty good, but is not of Hi-Fi quality. Put a pair of good bookshelf speakers on the rear speaker jack and the character of the K3 receive audio changes drastically. 73, Don W3FPR On 7/9/2015 8:52 PM, Tom Schaefer wrote: I'm missing something. Wayne said that's in the K3 now. He did not say only the K3S did he? Tom NY4I Principal Solutions Architect Better Software Solutions, Inc. 727-437-2771 On Jul 9, 2015, at 7:09 PM, Bob McGraw - K4TAX rmcg...@blomand.net wrote: This system, being in the new K3S, should make a big difference in receive audio. I certainly look forward to receiving my new K3S-F. Thanks Wayne! 73 Bob, K4TAX On 7/9/2015 6:05 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote: Also note that the K3 has stereo, 4-ohm-capable external speaker outputs. You can really get pet-hair-raising amounts of audio out if you need it. Using two speakers allows you to take advantage of the left/right main/sub RX audio as well as audio effects. 73, Wayne N6KR On Jul 9, 2015, at 3:34 PM, Mel Farrer via Elecraft elecraft@mailman.qth.net wrote: I think the issue of the audio output of the K series is sufficient to anyone needing a simple system. I for one have never used any of the inboard speaker on any radio preferring to use external devices to suit my needs. Having said that the audio sharpness / crispness is good on the internal speaker in general. Fidelity is a different story. That' s what earphones and external devices are for. The Tx audio is par excellence. IMHO. Mel. K6KBE __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to rmcg...@blomand.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to t...@xmission.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to w3...@embarqmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] RX Audio/AGC
This debate comes up way too often - so I rather think there is an inherent problem with the perceived comfort of the receive audio. First, I am a long-time Kenwood user and am very used to armchair copy - as most of my hamming is rag chew on 75 and 40 meters. To that end, I have spent too much money on speakers and too much time trying to get the K3 to sound as good as my TS-480 or a TS-590. That said, you can see the current settings I am using on my K3 at: http://www.w2blc.net/K3.htm The above captioned settings are not carved in stone and I tweak them often. Tweakability is one of the strong features of the K3. You can arrange the radio to suit your specific needs and desires - not just what some lab-rat decided at the manufacturer. Bill W2BLC K-Line (?) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] RX Audio/AGC
Mike, I don't know if it will help in your situation, but take a look at my webpage www.w3fpr.com article on Noisy K3 for some guidance to setting the AGC parameters. Yes, changing the slope may be helpful, but you will have to experiment a bit. Turning the preamp off and perhaps the attenuator on may help as well. Then too, if you are running with noise reduction turned on, that could create some 'funny situations' that are similar to what you are hearing - try with NR turned off. 73, Don W3FPR On 1/23/2014 6:39 PM, mikerodgerske5...@yahoo.com wrote: I have a ongoing nuisance. On USB it seems high voices will pop/crack just like if AGC was off and hitting the AF limiter. Reducing RF Gain clears it up. Turning agc threshold down has no effect. Is there a agc setting that might correct this? I haven't tried slope which is 15 (max). I get the qth list as daily digest and yahoo as individual email. It's much easier to respond on yahoo. I've posted to both. Thanks Mike R __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] RX Audio/AGC
Mike, An added note - when experimenting with the AGC settings, do take heed of the information on how to evaluate the results of your changes - listen between pauses in the signal rather than listening to the noise on the band. Listening to the noise level without an intermittent signal will lead you in the wrong direction. 73, Don W3FPR On 1/23/2014 6:55 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: Mike, I don't know if it will help in your situation, but take a look at my webpage www.w3fpr.com article on Noisy K3 for some guidance to setting the AGC parameters. Yes, changing the slope may be helpful, but you will have to experiment a bit. Turning the preamp off and perhaps the attenuator on may help as well. Then too, if you are running with noise reduction turned on, that could create some 'funny situations' that are similar to what you are hearing - try with NR turned off. 73, Don W3FPR On 1/23/2014 6:39 PM, mikerodgerske5...@yahoo.com wrote: I have a ongoing nuisance. On USB it seems high voices will pop/crack just like if AGC was off and hitting the AF limiter. Reducing RF Gain clears it up. Turning agc threshold down has no effect. Is there a agc setting that might correct this? I haven't tried slope which is 15 (max). I get the qth list as daily digest and yahoo as individual email. It's much easier to respond on yahoo. I've posted to both. Thanks Mike R __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] RX Audio/AGC
Adding on Don's post, my experience is to go slow, make one change and try it out in real situations. I was about to give up on the RX Eq, and got that advice from K9YC. I did finally zero it in where I want it. With a radio that has as many configurable parameters as the K3, some of which interact, it's very easy to get things totally out of whack with big and rapid moves. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014 - www.cqp.org On 1/23/2014 3:55 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: Mike, I don't know if it will help in your situation, but take a look at my webpage www.w3fpr.com article on Noisy K3 for some guidance to setting the AGC parameters. Yes, changing the slope may be helpful, but you will have to experiment a bit. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] RX Audio/AGC
Let me add, I don't mind reducing rf gain more one on one BUT its aggravating after a while in a group to turn it up and down for one or two guys with high pitch voices. Seems AGC should do that? Once again, it's like the high pitch voice is activating th AF limiter or a similar sound. AGC fast or slow. AF limiter 30. Signal around s7. I run into this frequently on a 20m rag chew net. 73 Mike R RIP- Mr 500. STP's Andy Granatelli from racing fans everywhere. On Jan 23, 2014, at 6:11 PM, Don Wilhelm w3...@embarqmail.com wrote: Mike, An added note - when experimenting with the AGC settings, do take heed of the information on how to evaluate the results of your changes - listen between pauses in the signal rather than listening to the noise on the band. Listening to the noise level without an intermittent signal will lead you in the wrong direction. 73, Don W3FPR On 1/23/2014 6:55 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: Mike, I don't know if it will help in your situation, but take a look at my webpage www.w3fpr.com article on Noisy K3 for some guidance to setting the AGC parameters. Yes, changing the slope may be helpful, but you will have to experiment a bit. Turning the preamp off and perhaps the attenuator on may help as well. Then too, if you are running with noise reduction turned on, that could create some 'funny situations' that are similar to what you are hearing - try with NR turned off. 73, Don W3FPR On 1/23/2014 6:39 PM, mikerodgerske5...@yahoo.com wrote: I have a ongoing nuisance. On USB it seems high voices will pop/crack just like if AGC was off and hitting the AF limiter. Reducing RF Gain clears it up. Turning agc threshold down has no effect. Is there a agc setting that might correct this? I haven't tried slope which is 15 (max). I get the qth list as daily digest and yahoo as individual email. It's much easier to respond on yahoo. I've posted to both. Thanks Mike R __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] RX Audio/AGC
Mike, The high pitched voices should have no connection with AGC. I would suggest that those signals are off frequency. Using the RX EQ might help, or reducing the HiCut may be the answer to make your RX more comfortable. 73, Don W3FPR On 1/23/2014 11:33 PM, mikerodgerske5...@yahoo.com wrote: Let me add, I don't mind reducing rf gain more one on one BUT its aggravating after a while in a group to turn it up and down for one or two guys with high pitch voices. Seems AGC should do that? Once again, it's like the high pitch voice is activating th AF limiter or a similar sound. AGC fast or slow. AF limiter 30. Signal around s7. I run into this frequently on a 20m rag chew net. 73 Mike R __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] RX Audio/AGC
Mike, Do you have CONFIG:AF LIM reduced from NOR 030 and MENU:RX EQ set to boost high frequencies? 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 1/23/2014 11:33 PM, mikerodgerske5...@yahoo.com wrote: Let me add, I don't mind reducing rf gain more one on one BUT its aggravating after a while in a group to turn it up and down for one or two guys with high pitch voices. Seems AGC should do that? Once again, it's like the high pitch voice is activating th AF limiter or a similar sound. AGC fast or slow. AF limiter 30. Signal around s7. I run into this frequently on a 20m rag chew net. 73 Mike R RIP- Mr 500. STP's Andy Granatelli from racing fans everywhere. On Jan 23, 2014, at 6:11 PM, Don Wilhelm w3...@embarqmail.com wrote: Mike, An added note - when experimenting with the AGC settings, do take heed of the information on how to evaluate the results of your changes - listen between pauses in the signal rather than listening to the noise on the band. Listening to the noise level without an intermittent signal will lead you in the wrong direction. 73, Don W3FPR On 1/23/2014 6:55 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: Mike, I don't know if it will help in your situation, but take a look at my webpage www.w3fpr.com article on Noisy K3 for some guidance to setting the AGC parameters. Yes, changing the slope may be helpful, but you will have to experiment a bit. Turning the preamp off and perhaps the attenuator on may help as well. Then too, if you are running with noise reduction turned on, that could create some 'funny situations' that are similar to what you are hearing - try with NR turned off. 73, Don W3FPR On 1/23/2014 6:39 PM, mikerodgerske5...@yahoo.com wrote: I have a ongoing nuisance. On USB it seems high voices will pop/crack just like if AGC was off and hitting the AF limiter. Reducing RF Gain clears it up. Turning agc threshold down has no effect. Is there a agc setting that might correct this? I haven't tried slope which is 15 (max). I get the qth list as daily digest and yahoo as individual email. It's much easier to respond on yahoo. I've posted to both. Thanks Mike R __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] RX Audio/AGC
Joe, Thanks. I should double check AF Lim. I've always set at 30. EQ mostly flat with band 8 -16. I may experiment with -3 or -6 on some EQ bands. 73 Mike R RIP- Mr 500. STP's Andy Granatelli from racing fans everywhere. On Jan 23, 2014, at 11:04 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV li...@subich.com wrote: Mike, Do you have CONFIG:AF LIM reduced from NOR 030 and MENU:RX EQ set to boost high frequencies? 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 1/23/2014 11:33 PM, mikerodgerske5...@yahoo.com wrote: Let me add, I don't mind reducing rf gain more one on one BUT its aggravating after a while in a group to turn it up and down for one or two guys with high pitch voices. Seems AGC should do that? Once again, it's like the high pitch voice is activating th AF limiter or a similar sound. AGC fast or slow. AF limiter 30. Signal around s7. I run into this frequently on a 20m rag chew net. 73 Mike R RIP- Mr 500. STP's Andy Granatelli from racing fans everywhere. On Jan 23, 2014, at 6:11 PM, Don Wilhelm w3...@embarqmail.com wrote: Mike, An added note - when experimenting with the AGC settings, do take heed of the information on how to evaluate the results of your changes - listen between pauses in the signal rather than listening to the noise on the band. Listening to the noise level without an intermittent signal will lead you in the wrong direction. 73, Don W3FPR On 1/23/2014 6:55 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: Mike, I don't know if it will help in your situation, but take a look at my webpage www.w3fpr.com article on Noisy K3 for some guidance to setting the AGC parameters. Yes, changing the slope may be helpful, but you will have to experiment a bit. Turning the preamp off and perhaps the attenuator on may help as well. Then too, if you are running with noise reduction turned on, that could create some 'funny situations' that are similar to what you are hearing - try with NR turned off. 73, Don W3FPR On 1/23/2014 6:39 PM, mikerodgerske5...@yahoo.com wrote: I have a ongoing nuisance. On USB it seems high voices will pop/crack just like if AGC was off and hitting the AF limiter. Reducing RF Gain clears it up. Turning agc threshold down has no effect. Is there a agc setting that might correct this? I haven't tried slope which is 15 (max). I get the qth list as daily digest and yahoo as individual email. It's much easier to respond on yahoo. I've posted to both. Thanks Mike R __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio Roll-off below 400 Hz
Is this roll-off similar to what other folks are seeing? That is slightly less roll off than I see with either the FM (13 KHz) or 2.8 KHz filters in the data modes. It is in line with the 200 Hz cut off for data modes. In LSB/USB the low cut is less steep. In SSB it looks to be about 10 dB per octave below 300 Hz (-10 dB at 150 Hz, -20 dB at 75 Hz, -30 dB at 40 Hz) vs. 0.2 dB/Hz below 250 Hz in DATA modes. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 9/7/2013 11:55 AM, Bob wrote: My K3 is in the 61XX serial number range (almost 2 years old), and I'm running FW 4.67/2.81. While setting up WSJT-X, I've noticed a rather pronounced audio roll-off on the waterfall display. By other means I've verified that the sound card being used is flat down to below 20 Hz, so it isn't that. Assuming that it is an attribute of the K3 itself, things are flat down to 400 Hz. Then there is a -3 dB roll-off at 300 Hz, -10 dB at 200 Hz, and -20 dB at 100 Hz. At the moment, my widest filter is an 8-pole 2.8 KHz (A 6 KHz AM filter is on order), and it properly centered and wide open. Is this roll-off similar to what other folks are seeing? 73, Bob, WB4SON __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio
Thank you all that replied to me direct and via the mailing list, There is too many to reply to, There was a good balance between positive and negative, But I think I can be happy to proceed with getting a K3 and not worry about this issue. Thanks again Trevor EI2GLB From: Trevor Dunne trevor_du...@yahoo.com To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Friday, 19 July 2013, 12:16 Subject: K3 RX Audio Hi All I am allmost ready to order my K3 but I keep reading about people that are unhappy with the RX audio, Is this still a problem or has there been changes made to slove it, Can someone point me to a good guide on how to set the RX up to remove the harsh sounding audio. I will mainly be using a headset as DXing is my main interest. Thanks Trevor EI2GLB __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio
Yes, please! Irritating when I've been on speaker and then put on headphones and blast myself with my own sidetone. A fixed L-R balance adjustment somewhere in a menu would be great too, for guys like me who have one weak ear. Can't find a headset that I like that also has individual volume controls. 73 -- Carl WS7L On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 3:49 PM, Ralph Parker ve...@dccnet.com wrote: Only one thing left to do to make me ecstatic - separate audio gain menu settings for headset and speakers. Lo gain setting is best for my headset, but nowhere near loud enough for a speaker (I've tried many external speakers). High gain setting hurts my ears inside my headset, but has good level for speaker monitoring while I'm in the shack. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio
H...that would be a huge improvement for all I reckon. I have always had to be careful when switching from speaker to headphones. Didn't always turn out too good though. Gary On 22 July 2013 16:04, Carl Clawson clawso...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, please! Irritating when I've been on speaker and then put on headphones and blast myself with my own sidetone. A fixed L-R balance adjustment somewhere in a menu would be great too, for guys like me who have one weak ear. Can't find a headset that I like that also has individual volume controls. 73 -- Carl WS7L On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 3:49 PM, Ralph Parker ve...@dccnet.com wrote: Only one thing left to do to make me ecstatic - separate audio gain menu settings for headset and speakers. Lo gain setting is best for my headset, but nowhere near loud enough for a speaker (I've tried many external speakers). High gain setting hurts my ears inside my headset, but has good level for speaker monitoring while I'm in the shack. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- *Gary - VK1ZZ Skype: Gary.VK1ZZ http://www.qsl.net/vk1zz Motorhome Portable The Shack* *Elecraft K3 P3 Panadapter KPA500FT KAT500FT** * __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX AUDIO
I think the audio voice quality has been remedied long ago. What lingers is the high end hiss that I and a few others hear. Apparently this only bothers a minority. On my 5047 it occurs with hi cut of about 2500 and gets worse to 3000. If you run bandwidth 2.1 or below you will never hear it. 2.4 probably hear it some. It's most prevalent scanning a vacant band 6-20. Not as noticeable when people are talking. On the noisier bands I'm not sure you hear it at all. I was on 40 the other night using NR and didn't hear it. This issue in general comes up frequently on other groups and is negative press. It's usually called something like fatigue factor like during a contest. I think some of this is holdover and bad press before the dsp upgrade several years ago. I don't see anything wrong with the audio itself, just the high end hiss. My top 3 eq bands at -16 by the way. Something that comes up also is how well the k handles lightning noise spikes in agc and why can't others do it? That's positive press. 73 Mike R __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX AUDIO
Mike, If that 'hiss' is reduced when the bandwidth is reduced, then it is atmospheric noise that you are hearing, not any internally generated noise. The audio LPF that was added to the DSP board has a cutoff frequency somewhere near 3.4 kHz if I recall. There is little falloff at frequencies lower than that. The K3 does have a very flat passband with steep skirts out to the hi-cut value. I am guessing that the flat passband is what is bothering you. 73, Don W3FPR On 7/21/2013 7:18 PM, mikerodgerske5...@yahoo.com wrote: I think the audio voice quality has been remedied long ago. What lingers is the high end hiss that I and a few others hear. Apparently this only bothers a minority. On my 5047 it occurs with hi cut of about 2500 and gets worse to 3000. If you run bandwidth 2.1 or below you will never hear it. 2.4 probably hear it some. It's most prevalent scanning a vacant band 6-20. Not as noticeable when people are talking. On the noisier bands I'm not sure you hear it at all. I was on 40 the other night using NR and didn't hear it. This issue in general comes up frequently on other groups and is negative press. It's usually called something like fatigue factor like during a contest. I think some of this is holdover and bad press before the dsp upgrade several years ago. I don't see anything wrong with the audio itself, just the high end hiss. My top 3 eq bands at -16 by the way. Something that comes up also is how well the k handles lightning noise spikes in agc and why can't others do it? That's positive press. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX AUDIO
The audio LPF that was added to the DSP board has a cutoff frequency somewhere near 3.4 kHz if I recall. The cutoff is 4.2 KHz - the same as the high limit of the DSP. The K3 does have a very flat passband with steep skirts out to the hi-cut value. I am guessing that the flat passband is what is bothering you. I'm convinced of that ... the vast majority of rigs I've tested over the years have a low-pass roll off characteristic to their audio - generally in the 3 to 6dB per octave range from about 5OO Hz up. This can be simulated in the K3 by setting 400 Hz at 0, 800 at -3, 1600 at -6, 2400 at -8 and 3200 at -9 (3 dB per octave - double for -6 dB per octave). If one couples the 6 dB/octave roll off with a bandwidth of 2.6 KHz (200 - 2800 Hz) there is very little difference in the audio sound between the K3 and other mainline rigs. I prefer to keep my RX EQ flat from 400-2400 Hz, set 3200 at -16 and bring the bandwidth in to 2.4-2.6 KHz. The flat setting at 2400 effectively provides a little intelligibility boost compared to the other rigs for those times I have to use SSB. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 7/21/2013 7:43 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: Mike, If that 'hiss' is reduced when the bandwidth is reduced, then it is atmospheric noise that you are hearing, not any internally generated noise. The audio LPF that was added to the DSP board has a cutoff frequency somewhere near 3.4 kHz if I recall. There is little falloff at frequencies lower than that. The K3 does have a very flat passband with steep skirts out to the hi-cut value. I am guessing that the flat passband is what is bothering you. 73, Don W3FPR On 7/21/2013 7:18 PM, mikerodgerske5...@yahoo.com wrote: I think the audio voice quality has been remedied long ago. What lingers is the high end hiss that I and a few others hear. Apparently this only bothers a minority. On my 5047 it occurs with hi cut of about 2500 and gets worse to 3000. If you run bandwidth 2.1 or below you will never hear it. 2.4 probably hear it some. It's most prevalent scanning a vacant band 6-20. Not as noticeable when people are talking. On the noisier bands I'm not sure you hear it at all. I was on 40 the other night using NR and didn't hear it. This issue in general comes up frequently on other groups and is negative press. It's usually called something like fatigue factor like during a contest. I think some of this is holdover and bad press before the dsp upgrade several years ago. I don't see anything wrong with the audio itself, just the high end hiss. My top 3 eq bands at -16 by the way. Something that comes up also is how well the k handles lightning noise spikes in agc and why can't others do it? That's positive press. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX AUDIO
That could be what it is. The hissy sound that some folks are hearing is probably simply a passband that's unusually flat. Those interested should familiarize themselves with the plots on Barry N1EU's page: http://n1eu.com/K3/K3_notes.htm . So, I am not sure why, if at say, 2.8 kHz you find the hiss objectionable, you wouldn't simply limit the upper cutoff frequency to 2.75 kHz??? I find 3.4 kHz too noisy; I leave my HI CUT frequency far below that point, always. That's why that control is variable. There might be another factor involved. I don't recall if I made this point before-- and I apologize if I am repeating myself-- but I find that hams who grew up copying signals buried in QRM on less-than-perfect receivers tend to do much better later in life dealing with the psychoacoustical effects this thread has morphed into discussing. But this is only an anecdotal observation and I think some psychology student somewhere should do their dissertation on this! The K3 does have a very flat passband with steep skirts out to the hi-cut value. I am guessing that the flat passband is what is bothering you. For a similar reason, we have hams who dislike copying stations who are less than S9. The 'ear-brain filter' that you hear about is an amazing thing, but especially if the skill to use it has been cultivated from a young age. Al W6LX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio
Trevor, With the 8 band EQ settings I think most operators either forget or are unfamiliar with how much the received (perceived?) audio can be tailored to the individuals hearing. Sure you can use stereo headsets (which I do) and or use the internal speaker provided. Again, audio is really dependent on the individuals hearing and this of course varies widely. I have Tinitus (no, I am not complaining, well, too much) and this reduces somewhat my ability to hear many of the frequencies others might hear but having said that, the K3 produces good quality audio IF you take the time to adjust the audio via the EQ, AGC, Slope and other subsets as detailed in the manual. I doubt any internal speaker in any of the current crop of offerings will produce a full rich sounding audio and I will leave it to others to comment on why as I think most of us understand why anyway. The CM500 headset does a real nice job for me and I have also used stereo computer speakers as well. Both work well and the internal speaker is OK but as others will testify it is not designed or intended (my opinion only) to produce broadcast quality audio. It is a communications device. After market Pro Audio gear from Behringer and such used for transmit doesn't help anyone's receive audio in my view, it just consumes bandwidth and on the P3 it does not look real flash either. I have tried changing the settings in the EQ when listening to these operators and it does improve the audio quality somewhat but at the expense involved for those using Pro-Audio gear I don't see the bang for your buck justification at all. Just my rambling thoughts on the subject...YMMV...:-) Regards, Gary (Deaf as a post) On 19 July 2013 21:32, Stephen Prior eastbrantw...@gmail.com wrote: Trevor My #930 has always sounded nice to me with a pair of high end sennheiser headphones with far less background hiss than either the ts480 or IC7000 which preceded it. I did the dsp board swap a couple of years ago and that made it even more pleasant to listen to. In my opinion, even for its size, the built in speaker in the k3 is disappointing and I don't use it. 73 Stephen G4SJP Full of typos from my iPhone On 19 Jul 2013, at 13:16, Trevor Dunne trevor_du...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi All I am allmost ready to order my K3 but I keep reading about people that are unhappy with the RX audio, Is this still a problem or has there been changes made to slove it, Can someone point me to a good guide on how to set the RX up to remove the harsh sounding audio. I will mainly be using a headset as DXing is my main interest. Thanks Trevor EI2GLB __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- *Gary - VK1ZZ Skype: Gary.VK1ZZ http://www.qsl.net/vk1zz Motorhome Portable The Shack* *Elecraft K3 P3 Panadapter KPA500FT KAT500FT** * __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio
Trevor, I purchased a used K3 (s/n 281) a bit over two years ago and have never had a complaint about receive audio. I love this rig and will, in all likelihood, never buy another rig again. Good luck with your purchase decision. 73, --Ian Ian Kahn, KM4IK Roswell, GA EM74ua km4ik@gmail.com K3 #281, P3 #688, KPA500 #1468 HRD v5.x/6.0 Test Team On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 7:16 AM, Trevor Dunne trevor_du...@yahoo.comwrote: Hi All I am allmost ready to order my K3 but I keep reading about people that are unhappy with the RX audio, Is this still a problem or has there been changes made to slove it, Can someone point me to a good guide on how to set the RX up to remove the harsh sounding audio. I will mainly be using a headset as DXing is my main interest. Thanks Trevor EI2GLB __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio
Trevor My #930 has always sounded nice to me with a pair of high end sennheiser headphones with far less background hiss than either the ts480 or IC7000 which preceded it. I did the dsp board swap a couple of years ago and that made it even more pleasant to listen to. In my opinion, even for its size, the built in speaker in the k3 is disappointing and I don't use it. 73 Stephen G4SJP Full of typos from my iPhone On 19 Jul 2013, at 13:16, Trevor Dunne trevor_du...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi All I am allmost ready to order my K3 but I keep reading about people that are unhappy with the RX audio, Is this still a problem or has there been changes made to slove it, Can someone point me to a good guide on how to set the RX up to remove the harsh sounding audio. I will mainly be using a headset as DXing is my main interest. Thanks Trevor EI2GLB __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio
I am mostly a rag chewer and enjoy armchair copy audio. To that end, I found the K3 was sadly lacking in good receive audio. Too much hiss and too tinny sounding. In a word, tiring to listen to for long periods of time. I thought about giving up and going back to my trusty TS480 with its inherent excellent audio. However, as good as the 480 is, when the chips are down for lousy conditions, the K3 shines. It is so flexible in operation. Therein lies the K3's strengths - flexible. I spend a long time trying many different settings with the K3 (learning a lot about the K3's operations along the way), I eventually found some settings of the K3's menus that do the job for me. My settings can be found at: http://www.w2blc.net/K3.htm However, note these are my settings, and you may not like them. They are meant for the 75 and 40 meter rag chewer - not the typical DX or contest settings. Your enjoyment may vary. I had a long-term power outage here the other day and had to resort to using the 480 (which had been gathering dust for several months). It works very well and does the job well for me - however - (yes, however) it just doesn't do as well as the K3 when it comes to summer static and adjacent channel interference. It doesn't have a P3 either. This got a little longer than I intended, but the K3 is the best rig I have ever used - and I have been using for over well fifty years. Bill W2BLC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio
Bill, Are you using headphones or a speaker? And can you please describe? 73, Ted W4NZ -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bill Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 9:48 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio I am mostly a rag chewer and enjoy armchair copy audio. To that end, I found the K3 was sadly lacking in good receive audio. Too much hiss and too tinny sounding. In a word, tiring to listen to for long periods of time. I thought about giving up and going back to my trusty TS480 with its inherent excellent audio. However, as good as the 480 is, when the chips are down for lousy conditions, the K3 shines. It is so flexible in operation. Therein lies the K3's strengths - flexible. I spend a long time trying many different settings with the K3 (learning a lot about the K3's operations along the way), I eventually found some settings of the K3's menus that do the job for me. My settings can be found at: http://www.w2blc.net/K3.htm However, note these are my settings, and you may not like them. They are meant for the 75 and 40 meter rag chewer - not the typical DX or contest settings. Your enjoyment may vary. I had a long-term power outage here the other day and had to resort to using the 480 (which had been gathering dust for several months). It works very well and does the job well for me - however - (yes, however) it just doesn't do as well as the K3 when it comes to summer static and adjacent channel interference. It doesn't have a P3 either. This got a little longer than I intended, but the K3 is the best rig I have ever used - and I have been using for over well fifty years. Bill W2BLC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio
Ok, I see it on your website. 73, Ted W4NZ -Original Message- From: Ted Bryant [mailto:w...@comcast.net] Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 11:02 AM To: 'elecraft@mailman.qth.net' Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio Bill, Are you using headphones or a speaker? And can you please describe? 73, Ted W4NZ -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bill Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 9:48 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio I am mostly a rag chewer and enjoy armchair copy audio. To that end, I found the K3 was sadly lacking in good receive audio. Too much hiss and too tinny sounding. In a word, tiring to listen to for long periods of time. I thought about giving up and going back to my trusty TS480 with its inherent excellent audio. However, as good as the 480 is, when the chips are down for lousy conditions, the K3 shines. It is so flexible in operation. Therein lies the K3's strengths - flexible. I spend a long time trying many different settings with the K3 (learning a lot about the K3's operations along the way), I eventually found some settings of the K3's menus that do the job for me. My settings can be found at: http://www.w2blc.net/K3.htm However, note these are my settings, and you may not like them. They are meant for the 75 and 40 meter rag chewer - not the typical DX or contest settings. Your enjoyment may vary. I had a long-term power outage here the other day and had to resort to using the 480 (which had been gathering dust for several months). It works very well and does the job well for me - however - (yes, however) it just doesn't do as well as the K3 when it comes to summer static and adjacent channel interference. It doesn't have a P3 either. This got a little longer than I intended, but the K3 is the best rig I have ever used - and I have been using for over well fifty years. Bill W2BLC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio
Maybe I'm just deaf to the hiss everyone complains about, but I have to say my impression of K3 receive audio is considerably different. I do have the modified board, etc. And I haven't used the internal speaker since the first day I finished the radio. I do use a pair of RCA 40-5035 speakers that were sold by RatShack some years ago but are long discontinued. These look like the old Minimus 7 but are larger and MUCH better, with a 5 speaker and leaf tweeter. (I have 4 of these in the shack, and use them on everything). The K3 has enough gain to drive them with plenty of audio. In any case, the audio is full, clean, lacking in hiss, and just generally good. I do keep the bandwidth opened up to 3Khz or more if conditions are suitable, and the station(s) on the other end aren't using a straw for a transmit audio filter. I generally find that if the receive audio is tinny it's because of what's being transmitted … YMMV, of course Grant NQ5T On Jul 19, 2013, at 8:47 AM, Bill b...@w2blc.net wrote: I am mostly a rag chewer and enjoy armchair copy audio. To that end, I found the K3 was sadly lacking in good receive audio. Too much hiss and too tinny sounding. In a word, tiring to listen to for long periods of time.\ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio
Trevor Dunne wrote: I am allmost ready to order my K3 but I keep reading about people that are unhappy with the RX audio, Is this still a problem …. Hi Trevor, No, it is not still a problem. When the K3 first shipped, it had a few issues affecting audio that have all since been corrected. First, we added a balanced audio low-pass filter to the DSP board to remove sampling artifacts above 8 kHz that some operators could hear. Next, we made two rounds of firmware changes to improve in-band audio IMD. These changes included new AGC algorithms and a bug fix that corrected AGC attack/decay linearity. The K3's speaker amplifier is a type-AB linear device that can put out considerable power into a pair of 4-ohm speakers. While it's true that amplifiers in this class can have some low-level IMD products in the -60 to -80 dB range, I personally cannot hear them, and I have excellent hearing. The headphone amplifier is fully class A and will be even cleaner. What we hear from most K3 owners is how much they enjoy the full-stereo output of the radio, which applies to both speakers and headphones. We provide audio effects unique to the K3, including simulated stereo and left/right phase inversion (AFX MD menu entry), and full control over main/sub RX audio panning (L-MIX-R menu entry). These features can reduce fatigue and create a much richer audio experience. There is a small statistical probability that I'm biassed, so seek other opinions as well :) 73, Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio
On 7/19/2013 8:45 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote: No, it is not still a problem. I'm a retired audio professional, and I've always been happy with the K3's audio. I have always used headphones for serious operating, and have outboard speakers for armchair monitoring. The only issues I have had with the K3 audio relate to really dumb implementation of the I/O (RF chokes in series with cable shields, transformers where they are not needed, 600 ohm resistors in series with transformer primaries, 600 ohm termination of inputs), some of which have been corrected. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio
While the internal speaker is certainly adequate for most listening, you want headphones or a pair of external speakers to enjoy all of the possibilities when using AFX or the subreceiver. And there is no doubt the pair of inexpensive bookshelf speakers I have produce better audio than the internal speaker, but that is not surprise to me. Further, the K3 has a multi-band audio equalizer accessed through the menu that allows you to tailor the audio bandpass to your liking. 73, Ron AC7AC -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Trevor Dunne Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 4:16 AM To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio Hi All I am allmost ready to order my K3 but I keep reading about people that are unhappy with the RX audio, Is this still a problem or has there been changes made to slove it, Can someone point me to a good guide on how to set the RX up to remove the harsh sounding audio. I will mainly be using a headset as DXing is my main interest. Thanks Trevor EI2GLB __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio
...I found the K3 was sadly lacking in good receive audio. Too much hiss and too tinny sounding... tiring to listen to for long periods of time. My sediments exactly, when I first got my K3 (#1823). I'm an ex-audio pro too. However, after the audio board upgrade, and the 'newer' software (4.51?), I'm happy with the audio quality. Definitely a worthwhile mod. Only one thing left to do to make me ecstatic - separate audio gain menu settings for headset and speakers. Lo gain setting is best for my headset, but nowhere near loud enough for a speaker (I've tried many external speakers). High gain setting hurts my ears inside my headset, but has good level for speaker monitoring while I'm in the shack. You could consider this a feature request. Ralph, VE7XF __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF
I agree, in more ways than one, that we are talking apples and oranges here. The code between the devices has similar applications, but a Sabine Feedback Destroyer has multiple instances operating in a dedicated processor with nothing else to do but find the carriers while the K3 ANF is sharing its runtime with lots of other priorities. Another issue is that the ANF cannot remove the audio covered up by the interfering carrier, NOTHING can do this. All ANF can do is throw a notch over the interfering frequency... That is what it does, it cant actually REMOVE the coherent interferance from the incoherent intelligence. I was just at the NAB show where I saw a demonstration of a technology that does extract the underlying audio, which was truly magic. Also saw a demo of a video editing system (Adobe Premiere) that has a similar feature built in. Lots of non real time processing is needed to do this magic, however. If the ANF can be made better, great. I find it acceptable. Not perfect, but acceptable. If making it better doubles the price of the radio, then Im not for it, for what its worth :) -lu-w4lt- Message: 24 Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 16:50:24 -0500 From: W4ATK w4...@bellsouth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF To: Bill b...@w2blc.net Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Message-ID: 74bdcaf3-fca6-44df-a0e5-21728e101...@bellsouth.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I think we may be comparing apples to oranges here. In the K3 digital ANF, the notch filter is looking for coherent signals. The premise is that audio is less coherent than a CW carrier. Thus the ANF finds the coherent CW carrier and notches it out, leaving the remaining audio. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF
I hear it. I have always heard it. Its always been there. I think the distortion you are hearing and seeing in the waterfall you looked at is the notch in the audio itself and the ANF routine's hunting around for the frequency to notch as it samples the audio its being fed. Within the audio spectrum of a voice there are many frequencies, and they are constantly changing as speech is being produced. The tone (of the carrier) you are trying to notch also falls within those frequencies. The notch produced by the ANF has a finite width and depth plus or minus several cycles, as you noticed in the waterfall, which has a rise time and a fall time. When that is superimposed over a voice, there is a comb filter like effect in some frequencies adjecent to the tone you are notching as the automatic notch routine samples and then attempts to blank the interfering tone. We are talking about notching audio here, ANF cant magically get rid of just the tone and leave what is being covered up by the tone alone, it has to get rid of ALL the energy in the spectrum occupied by the tone, plus or minus the notch filter width and depth, so there literally is a hole there, and it moves as the voice and the tone mix. You hear the hole, and notice that something is missing. The hole moves around as the interference is blanked and the ANF refreshes its decision at whatever frequency it samples of what it needs to blank. That's why you dont see it in the manual notch, that one does not move around on its own. At least this is my long winded guess to what one hears here. K9YC may have a better way of explaining this than me (Im a duffer, he's a pro at this game). Ive always heard this to a greater or lesser extent in any radio or device that notches audio frequencies automatically. So called feedback destroyers in stage and studio audio have the same function as ANF, I hear this effect on them as well to a greater or lesser extent. They have gotten so good lately that it is barely preceptible, but its there, you can see it on a spectrum analyser. (Google Sabine Adaptive Audio to see a representative device, their older devices sound quite similar to what you hear in the K3 ANF; the newer ones are truly magical!). I dont think that it is *THAT* objectionable... It is there, I hear it, but I know why it is happening. Is it normal? Maybe. Could it be better? Possibly. I find it acceptable. Its a great aural reminder that you have the auto notch turned on! -lu-w4lt- --- -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Tim Tucker Sent: Friday, May 18, 2012 10:57 AM To: Elecraft Reflector Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF ANF is the common use abbreviation for Auto Notch Filter. A lot of rigs use that nomenclature. The K3's ANF on SSB has not worked correctly IMO for several firmware releases. Someone posted a fix a while back that involved resetting back to factory settings, rolling back to a previous firmware, reloading all your settings and then loading the current firmware. That's a lot of work and I was hoping a more elegant fix could be implemented in a firmware update. In my experience, the issue isn't so much extreme distortion on the signal, it's that it doesn't notch the offending signal properly. To reproduce, watch your RX signal with a strong carrier on a waterfall with a computer application like MixW. Turn on the ANF and you'll see that the K3 notches on either side of the offending carrier, but not actually right on the carrier. If you have good ears, you can hear this yourself. The manual notch works fine, of course. I haven't tried the latest beta firmware, so I don't know if this issue has been addressed yet. It needs to be addressed, though. Tim __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF
You said, They have gotten so good lately that it is barely preceptible, but its there, you can see it on a spectrum analyser. (Google Sabine Adaptive Audio to see a representative device, their older devices sound quite similar to what you hear in the K3 ANF; the newer ones are truly magical!). Professional musicians are the pickiest sound folks in the world. What the K3 does would be most unacceptable to them and I can say that, for sure, I have never heard similar at any professional music venue. The musicians would strangle the audio tech if it were so. All professional automatic notch filtering used in the music field is done at the what we call the audio level. It is their ONLY level, as they are not working with IFs etc. Hence, I can only assume that the audio level automatic notch filtering found in the K3 is not yet up to par. I say yet as that is the advantage of updates. At some point in the future, the ANF can be brought up to higher standards. In the interim, there are AGC settings that can be varied - resulting in more acceptable listening. Specifically, using AGC SLP level at 2 makes a major improvement to my ears. -- IN GOD I TRUST (but, NOT a single politician) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF
I think we may be comparing apples to oranges here. In the K3 digital ANF, the notch filter is looking for coherent signals. The premise is that audio is less coherent than a CW carrier. Thus the ANF finds the coherent CW carrier and notches it out, leaving the remaining audio. On May 19, 2012, at 4:27 PM, Bill wrote: You said, They have gotten so good lately that it is barely preceptible, but its there, you can see it on a spectrum analyser. (Google Sabine Adaptive Audio to see a representative device, their older devices sound quite similar to what you hear in the K3 ANF; the newer ones are truly magical!). Professional musicians are the pickiest sound folks in the world. What the K3 does would be most unacceptable to them and I can say that, for sure, I have never heard similar at any professional music venue. The musicians would strangle the audio tech if it were so. All professional automatic notch filtering used in the music field is done at the what we call the audio level. It is their ONLY level, as they are not working with IFs etc. Hence, I can only assume that the audio level automatic notch filtering found in the K3 is not yet up to par. I say yet as that is the advantage of updates. At some point in the future, the ANF can be brought up to higher standards. In the interim, there are AGC settings that can be varied - resulting in more acceptable listening. Specifically, using AGC SLP level at 2 makes a major improvement to my ears. -- IN GOD I TRUST (but, NOT a single politician) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF
Bill, Please enlighten me - I have searched through the K3 manual, and do not find anything labeled ANF If you would please give whatever you are trying to run the same label used in the K3 manual perhaps we can provide some answer. 73, Don W3FPR On 5/18/2012 7:52 AM, Bill wrote: I am reposting this question, as I received no responses the first time: I generally only use the ANF when it is needed. I do not run it all the time. The reason I do not run the ANF all the time is a slight degradation of the quality of the SSB received audio when it is engaged. Although it does not interfere with the intelligibility of the audio - it does introduce a fuzzy aspect to otherwise armchair copy. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF
My reaction was the same - I think he's referring to Automatic Notch Filter. Art - N4PJ On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 8:12 AM, Don Wilhelm w3...@embarqmail.com wrote: Bill, Please enlighten me - I have searched through the K3 manual, and do not find anything labeled ANF If you would please give whatever you are trying to run the same label used in the K3 manual perhaps we can provide some answer. 73, Don W3FPR On 5/18/2012 7:52 AM, Bill wrote: I am reposting this question, as I received no responses the first time: I generally only use the ANF when it is needed. I do not run it all the time. The reason I do not run the ANF all the time is a slight degradation of the quality of the SSB received audio when it is engaged. Although it does not interfere with the intelligibility of the audio - it does introduce a fuzzy aspect to otherwise armchair copy. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF
That would be the button labeled as NTCH. It is described on page 25 of the owner's manual as Auto Notch. Bill W2BLC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF
*Don, your not alone but I guessed it was Auto-Notch Filter..:-) Bill is correct though, there is distortion when I have AGC=12 and SLP=2 but if I go to AGC=8 it appears to be almost gone. Not sure why this is? 73's Gary * On 18 May 2012 22:12, Don Wilhelm w3...@embarqmail.com wrote: Bill, Please enlighten me - I have searched through the K3 manual, and do not find anything labeled ANF If you would please give whatever you are trying to run the same label used in the K3 manual perhaps we can provide some answer. 73, Don W3FPR On 5/18/2012 7:52 AM, Bill wrote: I am reposting this question, as I received no responses the first time: I generally only use the ANF when it is needed. I do not run it all the time. The reason I do not run the ANF all the time is a slight degradation of the quality of the SSB received audio when it is engaged. Although it does not interfere with the intelligibility of the audio - it does introduce a fuzzy aspect to otherwise armchair copy. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- Gary VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile Elecraft Equipment K3 #679, KPA-500 #018 Living the dream!!! __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF
ANF is the common use abbreviation for Auto Notch Filter. A lot of rigs use that nomenclature. The K3's ANF on SSB has not worked correctly IMO for several firmware releases. Someone posted a fix a while back that involved resetting back to factory settings, rolling back to a previous firmware, reloading all your settings and then loading the current firmware. That's a lot of work and I was hoping a more elegant fix could be implemented in a firmware update. In my experience, the issue isn't so much extreme distortion on the signal, it's that it doesn't notch the offending signal properly. To reproduce, watch your RX signal with a strong carrier on a waterfall with a computer application like MixW. Turn on the ANF and you'll see that the K3 notches on either side of the offending carrier, but not actually right on the carrier. If you have good ears, you can hear this yourself. The manual notch works fine, of course. I haven't tried the latest beta firmware, so I don't know if this issue has been addressed yet. It needs to be addressed, though. Tim On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 5:35 AM, Gary Gregory garyvk...@gmail.com wrote: *Don, your not alone but I guessed it was Auto-Notch Filter..:-) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF
That's the trouble with acronyms - they inhibit the flow of information (or should I have said they IFI? :-) 73, Ron AC7AC -Original Message- ANF is the common use abbreviation for Auto Notch Filter. A lot of rigs use that nomenclature... Tim On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 5:35 AM, Gary Gregory garyvk...@gmail.com wrote: *Don, your not alone but I guessed it was Auto-Notch Filter..:-) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF
Tim, I use the ANF regularly on 75 meters to block heterodynes and have no issues or distortion and it works extremely well. I use AGC settings: Nor decay .30 HLDA Nor PLS 004 SLP 007 THR 030 S I use 2.8 8 pole filter and on occasion a 1.8 8 pole filter. I have my PRE amp off and ATT on, generally as the noise floor is around 1-2 S units using my ~ 350' horizontal loop. My inverted V Double Bazooka has a slightly higher noise floor. Again, I see no issues and am using the latest firmware. The notch removes the offending notch, but not the signal itself, of course. I also have a P3. I think the Notch is working very well as currently designed. 73, Bill K9YEQ -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Tim Tucker Sent: Friday, May 18, 2012 10:57 AM To: Elecraft Reflector Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF ANF is the common use abbreviation for Auto Notch Filter. A lot of rigs use that nomenclature. The K3's ANF on SSB has not worked correctly IMO for several firmware releases. Someone posted a fix a while back that involved resetting back to factory settings, rolling back to a previous firmware, reloading all your settings and then loading the current firmware. That's a lot of work and I was hoping a more elegant fix could be implemented in a firmware update. In my experience, the issue isn't so much extreme distortion on the signal, it's that it doesn't notch the offending signal properly. To reproduce, watch your RX signal with a strong carrier on a waterfall with a computer application like MixW. Turn on the ANF and you'll see that the K3 notches on either side of the offending carrier, but not actually right on the carrier. If you have good ears, you can hear this yourself. The manual notch works fine, of course. I haven't tried the latest beta firmware, so I don't know if this issue has been addressed yet. It needs to be addressed, though. Tim On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 5:35 AM, Gary Gregory garyvk...@gmail.com wrote: *Don, your not alone but I guessed it was Auto-Notch Filter..:-) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] RX audio distorted on FM
Yes, that is normal. When you switch to FM you are listening to a much wider portion of the band you are on. 73, Tom Amateur Radio Operator N5GE ARRL Lifetime Member QCWA Lifetime Member 35102 On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 22:50:37 -0800, Pete-Astound is2d...@astound.net wrote: One question I still have though is that with an antenna hooked up and listening on either 10 or 6 meters when the band is quiet (night time with the pre-amp and attenuator off), does the background static get at least twice as loud if not more when you go from any of the modes to FM? [snip] __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] RX audio distorted on FM
Pete I confirm it's normal and common with most rigs. But if you don't like the background noise on FM you can use the squelch control to cut it out. Careful setting of the squelch will ensure no background noise but as soon as a weak station is received it will break the squelch and you will hear it. John G4ZTR -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of n...@n5ge.com Sent: 25 November 2011 08:13 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] RX audio distorted on FM Yes, that is normal. When you switch to FM you are listening to a much wider portion of the band you are on. 73, Tom Amateur Radio Operator N5GE ARRL Lifetime Member QCWA Lifetime Member 35102 On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 22:50:37 -0800, Pete-Astound is2d...@astound.net wrote: One question I still have though is that with an antenna hooked up and listening on either 10 or 6 meters when the band is quiet (night time with the pre-amp and attenuator off), does the background static get at least twice as loud if not more when you go from any of the modes to FM? [snip] __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6657 (2024) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6657 (2024) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] RX audio distorted on FM
Morning All, Sounds good and makes total sense.. Thank you for the responses.. Pete - WD6DKW __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] RX audio distorted on FM
Hi Tom: Very true. And, another factor is that most FM receiver IF circuits run the circuit gain at maximum. The resultant signal becomes distorted, but only in the sense that amplitude variations are totally removed. No matter, of course, since you want to detect the - frequency- variations (it's FM, after all). So, without using a squelch circuit to mute the audio, it's going to sound much louder. In fact, most squelch circuits use that broad-band noise to determine that a signal is -not- on the frequency. When a signal shows up, the receiver's AGC will detect that and turn the max gain down. The difference in levels between the empty frequency and one with a user on it, opens the squelch, and then you hear the station. When the incoming station is full quieting... it's signal is so strong that the IF gain is pushed down so much that the detected audio is quiet.. i.e. no additional band noise.. just the clean audio to your speaker. Same deal with FM broadcast receivers. 73 de Ray K2ULR On Nov 25, 2011, at 3:12 AM, n...@n5ge.com wrote: Yes, that is normal. When you switch to FM you are listening to a much wider portion of the band you are on. 73, Tom Amateur Radio Operator N5GE ARRL Lifetime Member QCWA Lifetime Member 35102 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] RX audio distorted on FM
Actually, no, not for FM. Just as you say, most FM receiver IF circuits run the circuit gain at maximum. Also, a conventional FM receiver IF contains one or more limiter stages. Quieting is not a function of reduced IF gain - it is a function of the limiter. Quieting is observed as signal strength rises past the point where limiting begins, and full quieting occurs at the point at which the signal is strong enough to saturate the limiter so that no AM component remains. Bob NW8L When the incoming station is full quieting... it's signal is so strong that the IF gain is pushed down so much that the detected audio is quiet.. i.e. no additional band noise.. just the clean audio to your speaker. Same deal with FM broadcast receivers. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] RX audio distorted on FM
HI Bob: Yeah... that's what I meant! :) There is that point where there is no further signal gain is possible.. i.e. hard limiting. So, you are quite correct. Thanks! 73 de Ray K2ULR On Nov 25, 2011, at 12:18 PM, Bob Cunnings wrote: Actually, no, not for FM. Just as you say, most FM receiver IF circuits run the circuit gain at maximum. Also, a conventional FM receiver IF contains one or more limiter stages. Quieting is not a function of reduced IF gain - it is a function of the limiter. Quieting is observed as signal strength rises past the point where limiting begins, and full quieting occurs at the point at which the signal is strong enough to saturate the limiter so that no AM component remains. Bob NW8L When the incoming station is full quieting... it's signal is so strong that the IF gain is pushed down so much that the detected audio is quiet.. i.e. no additional band noise.. just the clean audio to your speaker. Same deal with FM broadcast receivers. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] RX Audio Distorted on FM
Pete, Please tell us the rest of the story. Do you have the 2.7/2.8 filter set for SSB reception, or are you trying to use the FM filter for SSB reception? If you moved the 2.7/2.8 kHz filter to a different slot, you must tell the K3 firmware where it is now. K3 Utility simplifies the process, but you still have to tell it which filter is in which position. 73, Don W3FPR On 11/24/2011 6:06 PM, Pete-Astound wrote: Happy Thanksgiving to All, Just installed the KFL3B-FM Filter to my older K3. Tuning around on 10 this morning I heard a station, but things just didn't sound quite right. I fired up the 817 and found that the transmit audio sounds great, but the receive audio sounds distorted as though it were being overdriven. I've update all the firmware and haven't been able to find any references to receive audio. Any suggestions? Thanks.. Pete - WD6DKW __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX audio on voice modes oh no here we go again
You're right, Paul -- I skimmed right past the pink idea (oops) and interpreted the poster's concern as a more common one that customers have brought up, namely that they can hear higher-order products (above the nominal communications passband). Sloping the response is a very simple thing to do, and we've added that to the list. But we're also pursuing the high-order product issue. Interesting discussion! 73, Wayne N6KR On Apr 25, 2009, at 12:47 AM, pd0psb wrote: Wayne, I'm sorry to disagree. White noise will remain white within a restricted bandwidth. The better/steeper the filters (and the K3 has those) the more the noise character will remain white within the chosen bandwidth. 73' Paul PD0PSB Band noise is filtered three times before it gets to the AF amp: at the crystal filter, the DSP I.F. filter, and the DSP A.F. filter. It is most definitely pink by the time you hear it. 73, Wayne N6KR --- http://www.elecraft.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-RX-audio-on-voice-modes-%3Coh-no-here-we-go- again%3E-tp2699273p2702000.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html --- http://www.elecraft.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX audio on voice modes oh no here we go again
paul bijpost wrote: The white atmospheric band noise (we all love her) should somewhere down the line be converted to (near) pink audio noise before it hits our ears. Band noise is filtered three times before it gets to the AF amp: at the crystal filter, the DSP I.F. filter, and the DSP A.F. filter. It is most definitely pink by the time you hear it. However, it seems that we have some customers with such good hearing that they could benefit from additional rolloff at the output of the DAC driving the AF amp. Lyle and I are exploring ways to do this. We've added you to the short list to test anything we might come up with. 73, Wayne N6KR --- http://www.elecraft.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 rx audio: who's on first?
DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL wrote: It never ceases to amaze me how I can call some gnat signal which would normally be covered by a loud, close station unless I used a narrow filter, and the guy will return my call. Clearly, he is not hearing the loud guy as loudly as I am (if at all)...and he must also be wondering why he isn't getting a lot more calls. :-) This phenomenon is even more prevalent during 6m contesting (sporadic-E) than it is on HF. This is because sporadic-E (Es) tends to have a footprint defined quite closely by the location of the Es cloud, the height of the cloud, and the ionization intensity of the cloud. If the band is open from Albuquerque into Alabama and Georgia, those guys may also be hearing guys in Nebraska and South Dakota via another Es cloud. But because there is no Es cloud between me and Nebraska/South Dakota, I don't hear those guys at all. All I hear are the guys in Alabama and Georgia. I might be getting clobbered by some guy in Nebraska running stacked 11s, but I'll never hear him. To me, the frequency sounds completely clear except for the guys I'm trying to work. This is just one of the many interesting little idiosyncrasies that make 6-meter contesting such a hoot. :-) Bill W5WVO My initial reaction to suggestion about using SSB filter for cw was that wide must be 2.7 or 2.8khz, which is just too wide for me unless you're on a very quiet (meaning the opposite of crowded) band. To me, a wide filter is lets in too much noise which is what I find to be fatiguing (different strokes, apparently). Now we learn that even 2.8khz is not wide enough on cw for some. Go figure. Each to his own. I'm glad that the K3 can ostensibly accommodate everybody. de Doug KR2Q ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio
Tree wrote: http://www.kkn.net/~tree/160/3b7cQSO.mp3 MP3 is probably not a good choice for critical evaluation of the audio of a DSP based system, as it involves heavy additional DSP to produce it. In particular, MP3 works by limiting close in dynamic range (because the ear cannot hear weaker sounds close to a strong one), so weak signals which are close to strong ones will be reproduced with worse resolution, or lost. (It's a bit more complex than that as it is done on frequency blocks.) It's also a block based encoder and, although I'm not sure, it is possible that it loses phase information and fakes wideband noise. (I presume it must retain low frequency phase information, for stereo to work, but I don't know if it encodes I and Q in all frequency bands or whether it falls back to just power at the higher ones.) Even if it retains phase, I wouldn't expect it to reproduce multi-tone or, in particular, noise like digital modes well, and if you can hear subtle DSP artefacts in the K3 you can probably hear those resulting from MP3 encoding. Unfortunately, doing an extra A to D / D to A pair is inevitable, given there is no digital output, but it needs to be done at a carefully chosen sample rate. -- David Woolley Emails are not formal business letters, whatever businesses may want. RFC1855 says there should be an address here, but, in a world of spam, that is no longer good advice, as archive address hiding may not work. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio
OK, here's what I hear. A very quiet band, very little noise. A weak nearly subliminal signal. A rough sounding sidetone (hum on the sidetone). Tree, I can copy you just fine, but the 3B7C station I'm catching only a fragment of a letter here and there. I'll assume the rough sound was an issue with your recording setup (RF into the sound card?) or something and is not indicative of the K3's sidetone. How was this recorded? Oh, BTW, congrats on working him on 160 meters!!! - Keith N1AS - - K2 5411.ssb.100 - -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tree Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 10:24 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio Here is a sound sample from the K3. It is best listened to in Stereo. This took place on 160 meters about 20 minutes ago. I am still walking on air. http://www.kkn.net/~tree/160/3b7cQSO.mp3 There is normally an electric fence in the direction I was listening to, but notice you can't hear it. :-) 73 Tree N6TR ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio
On Thu, Sep 20, 2007 at 07:54:38AM -0700, Darwin, Keith wrote: A very quiet band, very little noise. Using a beverage to the SouthWest - and yes - the band was quiet, but part of this is the context filter in the K3. It really helps. A weak nearly subliminal signal. Yup - that's him. I can clearly hear him sending TR? once and then N6TA but suspect the dit was lost in the rapid QSB. A rough sounding sidetone (hum on the sidetone). Tree, I can copy you just fine, but the 3B7C station I'm catching only a fragment of a letter here and there. I'll assume the rough sound was an issue with your recording setup (RF into the sound card?) or something and is not indicative of the K3's sidetone. That's RF getting into my audio equipment - this was recorded using a computer's sound card and I have some RF issues. What I hear in the headphones has none of that. Here is what the sidetone really sounds like (using the handy TX TEST feature of the K3 that disables output, but lets you oterwise transmit): http://www.kkn.net/~tree/160/Sidetone.mp3 Oh, BTW, congrats on working him on 160 meters!!! THANKS!! Last night, I worked a dozen Europeans as well - so this band is in fine shape very early in the season. 73 Tree N6TR ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007, Darwin, Keith wrote: OK, here's what I hear. A very quiet band, very little noise. A weak nearly subliminal signal. A rough sounding sidetone (hum on the sidetone). I'm glad you posted the aboveI listened twice and was going to call the audiologist for a hearning test. Butthere was no fence post noise that I could hear. Tree's ability to copy what we can't hear is a testament to wetware. 73 - k3hrn Thom,EIEIO Email, Internet, Electronic Information Officer www.baltimorehon.com/Home of the Baltimore Lexicon www.tlchost.net/hosting/ Web Hosting as low as 3.49/month ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio
Tree, I'm a little unsure of what I was hearing (except your call!). Maybe it's just me (or my ears or the stereo! hi hi!), but I can just barely make out that there is another station. Regarding the noise: Would it be possible to do an A/B test (with/without noise)? I think that would showcase the K3 filters more effectively. Regards, kurtt Kurt Pawlikowski, WB9FMC The Pinrod Corporation [EMAIL PROTECTED] (773) 284-9500 http://pinrod.com Tree wrote: Here is a sound sample from the K3. It is best listened to in Stereo. This took place on 160 meters about 20 minutes ago. I am still walking on air. http://www.kkn.net/~tree/160/3b7cQSO.mp3 There is normally an electric fence in the direction I was listening to, but notice you can't hear it. :-) 73 Tree N6TR ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio
Tree What were your filter settings? Sounds like a couple of hundred hertz. I give 599 in contests just as an acknowledgement of reception, as I would call it. Do dx stations prefer real reports or is 599 adequate? On the rare occasions I have been dx, I preferred real reports, but it's a matter of personal preference I guess. David G3UNA - Original Message - From: Tree [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 3:23 PM Subject: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio Here is a sound sample from the K3. It is best listened to in Stereo. This took place on 160 meters about 20 minutes ago. I am still walking on air. http://www.kkn.net/~tree/160/3b7cQSO.mp3 There is normally an electric fence in the direction I was listening to, but notice you can't hear it. :-) 73 Tree N6TR ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio
Tree wrote: Here is a sound sample from the K3. It is best listened to in Stereo. This took place on 160 meters about 20 minutes ago. I am still walking on air. http://www.kkn.net/~tree/160/3b7cQSO.mp3 Well, I listened to it several times and it sure does sound like he came back to someone whose call ended in UA or TA. I couldn't tell at the end if he corrected it. But I'm sure he was hearing you, by the timing. Guess you'll know when the online log gets updated! -- 73, Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio
On Thu, Sep 20, 2007 at 07:28:31PM +0100, David Cutter wrote: What were your filter settings? Sounds like a couple of hundred hertz. So - the filter I was using is something like this: 150 hertz in the center of the passband. This has a rather sharp cutout, but only goes down something like 10 or 15 db to the second filter. The second filter is wider - 400 hz. Which matches the roofing filter. This is the context filter I keep talking about. It really seems to help my ears cut down on the noise - but still leaving some of the energy outside the passband which I believe is useful in weak signal work (ask a moonbouncer what filter they prefer to use - and most of them will tell you an SSB filter). Also - if you are listening in stereo - your are experiencing one of the audio effects that have been programmed into the DSP. It is delaying the sound in one ear slightly to the other ear - and to my ear, this makes copying signals easier. This feature is going to be improved with some fancy work to spread the frequencies across the stereo spectrum (binaural audio) - and of course, if you get the second RX board, you can use it for diversity reception which will really help get those missing dits at the end of your callsign as the signal experiences QSB. :-) I give 599 in contests just as an acknowledgement of reception, as I would call it. Do dx stations prefer real reports or is 599 adequate? On the rare occasions I have been dx, I preferred real reports, but it's a matter of personal preference I guess. Ah - I knew this would get asked as some point. DX-pedition stations prefer a 599 report as they don't have to do anything to change the entry in their computer. They get tired after many hours of operating field day style and anything to conserve energy is a good thing. This includes only sending 599 so they don't expend the mental energy of computing a signal report and trying to get it logged correctly. I am sure there are those on this list who feel this is not what Hiram had in mind - but it is the way the game is played, for better or worse. The point of this recording wasn't to provide a spark for a debate about DX-pedition operating technique - but rather to give a sample of what the K3 sounds like. I'll try to post some more sound files from an upcoming European opening on 160 for y'all. 73 Tree N6TR ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio
On Thu, Sep 20, 2007 at 01:20:11PM -0700, Vic K2VCO wrote: Tree wrote: Here is a sound sample from the K3. It is best listened to in Stereo. This took place on 160 meters about 20 minutes ago. I am still walking on air. http://www.kkn.net/~tree/160/3b7cQSO.mp3 Well, I listened to it several times and it sure does sound like he came back to someone whose call ended in UA or TA. I couldn't tell at the end if he corrected it. But I'm sure he was hearing you, by the timing. Guess you'll know when the online log gets updated! Well - you have to realize that rapid QSB is the name of the game here. He had TR obviously at the start - and filled in the N6 part clearly. Another station who was listening to this QSO from a better vantage point said that he had my call right the whole time. There was no doubt he was working me (in my mind). I hope he logged the call correctly - I will see on the online log page. 73 Tree ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio
On 9/20/07, Fred (FL) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This laptop has most every program known - but whatever the Rx Sound file is - Windows XP never heard of the file type, and will not allow it to be played here? Very odd Fred. It's in MP3 format which Windows Media Player should be able to play by default which it does for me. Hmm. -- JT Croteau, N1ESE - Manchester, NH ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007, JT Croteau wrote: On 9/20/07, Fred (FL) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This laptop has most every program known - but whatever the Rx Sound file is - Windows XP never heard of the file type, and will not allow it to be played here? Very odd Fred. It's in MP3 format which Windows Media Player should be able to play by default which it does for me. Hmm. Unless something changed the file associationsone could go to the help section in windows and search for file associations. 73 k3hrn Thom,EIEIO Email, Internet, Electronic Information Officer www.baltimorehon.com/Home of the Baltimore Lexicon www.tlchost.net/hosting/ Web Hosting as low as 3.49/month ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio
Didn't really want to add to the postings but wanted to agree with Bill's assessment. It will be interesting so see what the online log says and who the operator was.G3SED or GM3POI? Good stuff anyway, and so early in the season. Says a lot for the K3, so I guess I will be spending more time on 160m this winter!! I am really looking forward to checking out the noise blanker on my local QRM source, 400kV overhead power lines about 1.5km away. Chris G3SJJ Bill Tippett wrote: Congrats Tree! I actually never heard him give your call correctly. Here's what I copied: !st response: N6TA 5NN N6TA BK Then your exchange 2nd response: (??? something ending in a dit)...CFM 3B7C I guess you have to assume the CFM means he got it OK but he actually never sent N6TR clearly that I heard. 73, Bill W4ZV P.S. It is not unusual at all for RF to get into recordings when you are running QRO. The purity of the sidetone sounds great...like my TS-930S (a major complaint I had about the FT-1000MP was its square wave sidetone). ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio
I agree in contesting, perhaps the only exception I make is those one or two stations with T9 note, but when I have been a dxp station I wanted to know how my portable antennas fair, tho I must say I routinely give the callers 599. Yes, after several hours operating in the tropics at high temp and humidity, it gets somewhat tiring and automated responses help a lot. Thanks for info on the filter settings, I look forward to trying this. David G3UNA - Original Message - From: Tree [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: David Cutter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 9:31 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 RX Audio On Thu, Sep 20, 2007 at 07:28:31PM +0100, David Cutter wrote: What were your filter settings? Sounds like a couple of hundred hertz. So - the filter I was using is something like this: 150 hertz in the center of the passband. This has a rather sharp cutout, but only goes down something like 10 or 15 db to the second filter. The second filter is wider - 400 hz. Which matches the roofing filter. This is the context filter I keep talking about. It really seems to help my ears cut down on the noise - but still leaving some of the energy outside the passband which I believe is useful in weak signal work (ask a moonbouncer what filter they prefer to use - and most of them will tell you an SSB filter). Also - if you are listening in stereo - your are experiencing one of the audio effects that have been programmed into the DSP. It is delaying the sound in one ear slightly to the other ear - and to my ear, this makes copying signals easier. This feature is going to be improved with some fancy work to spread the frequencies across the stereo spectrum (binaural audio) - and of course, if you get the second RX board, you can use it for diversity reception which will really help get those missing dits at the end of your callsign as the signal experiences QSB. :-) I give 599 in contests just as an acknowledgement of reception, as I would call it. Do dx stations prefer real reports or is 599 adequate? On the rare occasions I have been dx, I preferred real reports, but it's a matter of personal preference I guess. Ah - I knew this would get asked as some point. DX-pedition stations prefer a 599 report as they don't have to do anything to change the entry in their computer. They get tired after many hours of operating field day style and anything to conserve energy is a good thing. This includes only sending 599 so they don't expend the mental energy of computing a signal report and trying to get it logged correctly. I am sure there are those on this list who feel this is not what Hiram had in mind - but it is the way the game is played, for better or worse. The point of this recording wasn't to provide a spark for a debate about DX-pedition operating technique - but rather to give a sample of what the K3 sounds like. I'll try to post some more sound files from an upcoming European opening on 160 for y'all. 73 Tree N6TR ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
