NEBS 2000 Conferences
I would just like to share some information that I obtained this morning concerning the above conferences. Telcordia and Bell Atlantic will be hosting the NEBS conference in Baltimore on October 4-5, 2000. The preliminary agenda and key speakers are shown at the following website: http://www.800teachme.com/nebsagenda.html Underwriters Laboratories and US West will be hosting a NEBS 2000 conference in Las Vegas on October 4-6, 2000. The preliminary agenda and key speakers will be provided on their website in the near future. I was informed that Michael Bentley from US West will be one of the chairmen for this conference. Which one should you attend? Future details will be available at both the Telcordia and UL websites. Chris Wellborn Regulatory Compliance Engineer ADTRAN Voice: (256) 963-8906
RE: EN standard for pacemaker immunity
You could contact our Notified Body - TUV Product Services at 1-651-638-0261 or http://www.tuvps.com Dennis Swanson is the EMI Engineer I deal with. I know they do quite allot of EMI work on pacemakers/defibrillators and the like as we have some of the big boys up here in Mpls/St.Paul (i.e. Medtronic, Guidant, St Jude Med) Good Luck -Original Message- From: jestuckey [mailto:jestuc...@micron.com] Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 12:15 PM To: 'Michael Taylor' Cc: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject: RE: EN standard for pacemaker immunity Contact ISMAEL MARTINEZ NCE/NCT 210-522-3631 imarti...@swri.org SwRI EMCR group does a large amount of work in this area for government and civilian applications. JOHN E. STUCKEY EMC Engineer Micron Technology, Inc. Integrated Products Group Micron Architectures Lab 8455 West Emerald St. Boise, Idaho 83704 PH: (208) 363-5313 FX: (208) 363-5596 jestuc...@micron.com -Original Message- From: Michael Taylor [mailto:mtay...@hach.com] Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 07:19 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: EN standard for pacemaker immunity Greetings all. An issue came up that needs answers as soon as possible. Does anyone in the group know if there are any European standards covering pacemaker (and similar devices) immunity to Electric Magnetic fields. A search of Global Eng. Documents product list proved fruitless. I'm sure there is someone in the group that has the answer. I will be most grateful for any answers or leads on this issue. Best regards. Michael Taylor Snowed-in, in Colorado. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
FW: Mexico Regulatory Requirements
The telephone number to ITS, Menlo Park is 650-463-2959. The number provided below is their fax line. My mistake. Sorry, Bandele Jetstream Communications, Inc. badep...@jetstream.com -Original Message- From: Bandele Adepoju Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 2:46 PM To: TREG (E-mail); EMC_PSTC (E-mail) Subject: RE: Mexico Regulatory Requirements Paul, Try ITS (Intertek Testing Services). It is my understanding that they have local representation in Mexico and can assist in obtaining the NOM mark. They should be able to provide you with the correct answer to your question. The telephone number of their office in Menlo Park, California is 650-463-2960. Ask for Ted Haschke. -Original Message- From: Lubeski, Paul [mailto:plube...@hnt.wylelabs.com] Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 2:03 PM To: TREG (E-mail); EMC_PSTC (E-mail) Subject: Mexico Regulatory Requirements Dear List members: Can anyone provide the Product Safety and Industry/Regulatory Network requirements and approval authority contact(s) for Mexico? Thank you. Paul A. Lubeski Project Manager, Telephone Technology Center Wyle Laboratories, Inc. 7800 HWY 20 W. Huntsville, AL 35806 (256) 837-4411 ext. 494 (256) 830-0904 (FAX) plube...@hnt.wylelabs.com http://www.wylelabs.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: Mexico Regulatory Requirements
Paul, Try ITS (Intertek Testing Services). It is my understanding that they have local representation in Mexico and can assist in obtaining the NOM mark. They should be able to provide you with the correct answer to your question. The telephone number of their office in Menlo Park, California is 650-463-2960. Ask for Ted Haschke. -Original Message- From: Lubeski, Paul [mailto:plube...@hnt.wylelabs.com] Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 2:03 PM To: TREG (E-mail); EMC_PSTC (E-mail) Subject: Mexico Regulatory Requirements Dear List members: Can anyone provide the Product Safety and Industry/Regulatory Network requirements and approval authority contact(s) for Mexico? Thank you. Paul A. Lubeski Project Manager, Telephone Technology Center Wyle Laboratories, Inc. 7800 HWY 20 W. Huntsville, AL 35806 (256) 837-4411 ext. 494 (256) 830-0904 (FAX) plube...@hnt.wylelabs.com http://www.wylelabs.com
Mexico Regulatory Requirements
Dear List members: Can anyone provide the Regulatory and Industry Network and CPE requirements (e.g., equivalence of Product Safety (UL 1950) , FCC Part 15, Part 68, 470-B, etc.) and approval authority contact(s) for Mexico? Thanks in advance. Paul A. Lubeski Project Manager, Telephone Technology Center Wyle Laboratories, Inc. 7800 HWY 20 W. Huntsville, AL 35806 (256) 837-4411 ext. 494 (256) 830-0904 (FAX) plube...@hnt.wylelabs.com http://www.wylelabs.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Mexico Regulatory Requirements
Dear List members: Can anyone provide the Product Safety and Industry/Regulatory Network requirements and approval authority contact(s) for Mexico? Thank you. Paul A. Lubeski Project Manager, Telephone Technology Center Wyle Laboratories, Inc. 7800 HWY 20 W. Huntsville, AL 35806 (256) 837-4411 ext. 494 (256) 830-0904 (FAX) plube...@hnt.wylelabs.com http://www.wylelabs.com
standard for lead shot dielectric testing
I'm looking for reference to any standard which may provide specifics for using lead shot for dielectric strength testing. I know this done for insulation system qualifications, just have not identified a standard for the test set up. Thanks, Barry Marks --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Re: SAF: Insulation resistance and hipot tests
Hello Martin, I don't have the answer to your question, but do caution that the First Test to be run (if the DUT is grounded) is the Ground Continuity Test (for test-operator protection). Regards, Art Michael * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * International Product Safety Bookshop * * Check out our current offerings! * * http://www.safetylink.com/bookshop.html * * * * Now offering BSI's Books Reports* * including, World Electricity Supplies * * * * Another service of the Safety Link* * www.safetylink.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * -- On Thu, 16 Mar 2000, Martin Rowe (TMW) wrote: Group, A reader asked about the order of performing safety tests. Should he perform insulation resistance tests before or after hipot tests? The reader didn't say what type of product he's testing, but I can ask. Thanks, /\ | Martin Rowe | / \ | Senior Technical Editor | /\ /\ | Test Measurement World | / \/ \/\ | voice 617-558-4426 |/\ /\ / \/ | fax 617-928-4426 | \/ \/ | e-mail m.r...@ieee.org | \ / | http://www.tmworld.com |\/ --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
SAF: Insulation resistance and hipot tests
Group, A reader asked about the order of performing safety tests. Should he perform insulation resistance tests before or after hipot tests? The reader didn't say what type of product he's testing, but I can ask. Thanks, /\ | Martin Rowe | / \ | Senior Technical Editor | /\ /\ | Test Measurement World | / \/ \/\ | voice 617-558-4426 |/\ /\ / \/ | fax 617-928-4426 | \/ \/ | e-mail m.r...@ieee.org | \ / | http://www.tmworld.com |\/ --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: NEBS 2000 Conferences
Could someone enlighten me on what is meant by NEBS 2000 requirements? Is there some sort of standards work going on here? Thanks, Jim Jim Wiese NEBS Project Manager/Compliance Engineer ADTRAN, INC. 901 Explorer Blvd. P.O. Box 14 Huntsville, AL 35814-4000 256-963-8431 256-963-8250 fax jim.wi...@adtran.com -- From: Gary McInturff[SMTP:gmcintu...@telect.com] Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 11:54 AM To: 'CHRIS WELLBORN'; NEBS Forum; EMC-PSTC Forum Subject: RE: NEBS 2000 Conferences Both Telecordia and UL are test houses that can deal with NEBS testing. Telcordia has probably been at it longer than UL and used to be a part of MA Bell, and then Bell Labs. UL in the last couple of years has been putting on NEBS seminars at which all of the RBOC's Bell Atlantic, US West, SWB, and all of the others were panelist. UL hosted it and Telecordia was in the crowd with the rest of us. During these seminars if anyone was to take a more stringent interpretation or to add requirements not in the NEBS documents that tended to be Bell Atlantic. The timing of these two seminars sounds a whole lot political to me, and that may be much more interesting than who hosts the conference. In particular when you consider that the NEBS 2000 requirements have been a bit of a political football, with Bell Atlantic in particular not wanting manufacturing input into the standard. The stated reason was they felt it would slow the process down. Certainly, a possibility but I would encourage you to draw you own conclusions. If there isn't something else afoot here then I would point out that I would much rather be in Las Vegas in October than Baltimore. Gary -Original Message- From: CHRIS WELLBORN [mailto:chris.wellb...@adtran.com] Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 7:01 AM To: NEBS Forum; EMC-PSTC Forum Subject:NEBS 2000 Conferences I would just like to share some information that I obtained this morning concerning the above conferences. Telcordia and Bell Atlantic will be hosting the NEBS conference in Baltimore on October 4-5, 2000. The preliminary agenda and key speakers are shown at the following website: http://www.800teachme.com/nebsagenda.html Underwriters Laboratories and US West will be hosting a NEBS 2000 conference in Las Vegas on October 4-6, 2000. The preliminary agenda and key speakers will be provided on their website in the near future. I was informed that Michael Bentley from US West will be one of the chairmen for this conference. Which one should you attend? Future details will be available at both the Telcordia and UL websites. Chris Wellborn Regulatory Compliance Engineer ADTRAN Voice: (256) 963-8906 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: EN standard for pacemaker immunity
Contact ISMAEL MARTINEZ NCE/NCT 210-522-3631 imarti...@swri.org SwRI EMCR group does a large amount of work in this area for government and civilian applications. JOHN E. STUCKEY EMC Engineer Micron Technology, Inc. Integrated Products Group Micron Architectures Lab 8455 West Emerald St. Boise, Idaho 83704 PH: (208) 363-5313 FX: (208) 363-5596 jestuc...@micron.com -Original Message- From: Michael Taylor [mailto:mtay...@hach.com] Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 07:19 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: EN standard for pacemaker immunity Greetings all. An issue came up that needs answers as soon as possible. Does anyone in the group know if there are any European standards covering pacemaker (and similar devices) immunity to Electric Magnetic fields. A search of Global Eng. Documents product list proved fruitless. I'm sure there is someone in the group that has the answer. I will be most grateful for any answers or leads on this issue. Best regards. Michael Taylor Snowed-in, in Colorado. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: NEBS 2000 Conferences
Both Telecordia and UL are test houses that can deal with NEBS testing. Telcordia has probably been at it longer than UL and used to be a part of MA Bell, and then Bell Labs. UL in the last couple of years has been putting on NEBS seminars at which all of the RBOC's Bell Atlantic, US West, SWB, and all of the others were panelist. UL hosted it and Telecordia was in the crowd with the rest of us. During these seminars if anyone was to take a more stringent interpretation or to add requirements not in the NEBS documents that tended to be Bell Atlantic. The timing of these two seminars sounds a whole lot political to me, and that may be much more interesting than who hosts the conference. In particular when you consider that the NEBS 2000 requirements have been a bit of a political football, with Bell Atlantic in particular not wanting manufacturing input into the standard. The stated reason was they felt it would slow the process down. Certainly, a possibility but I would encourage you to draw you own conclusions. If there isn't something else afoot here then I would point out that I would much rather be in Las Vegas in October than Baltimore. Gary -Original Message- From: CHRIS WELLBORN [mailto:chris.wellb...@adtran.com] Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 7:01 AM To: NEBS Forum; EMC-PSTC Forum Subject:NEBS 2000 Conferences I would just like to share some information that I obtained this morning concerning the above conferences. Telcordia and Bell Atlantic will be hosting the NEBS conference in Baltimore on October 4-5, 2000. The preliminary agenda and key speakers are shown at the following website: http://www.800teachme.com/nebsagenda.html Underwriters Laboratories and US West will be hosting a NEBS 2000 conference in Las Vegas on October 4-6, 2000. The preliminary agenda and key speakers will be provided on their website in the near future. I was informed that Michael Bentley from US West will be one of the chairmen for this conference. Which one should you attend? Future details will be available at both the Telcordia and UL websites. Chris Wellborn Regulatory Compliance Engineer ADTRAN Voice: (256) 963-8906 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: Russian Certification of Products
Dear Edward, I concur with your comments regarding central differences between sales and compliance expertise. It is clear to me that Russians have learned to speak with sales people in their own language. However, I respectfully disagree with your opening statement. The better one gets familiarized with the rooles of the game, the easier to deal with players. The Russians have not invented any new wheels, so to say. In my opinion, their standardization system and certification procedures are somewhat cloning European, particularly, German. Do not forget that they have always participated in the work of all International Standardization Committees. It has resulted in IEC publishing all documents in four languages including Russian. In fact, many of us here have heard foreign experts' criticism of U.S. certification processes and interpretation confusion. Let us be objective. Again, in my humble opinion, Russians are relatively cooperative (compare with Korea, Taiwan, and how about Japan where you have to pay annual $2,500.00 VCCI membership fee to obtain a VCCI certificate). As always, dealing with right people is more productive and less painful. As an alternative, U.S. companies should diligently look for independent laboratories here, in the U.S., who have been accredited by GOSSTANDART. These enterprises have for years participated in the U.S.-Russia Business Development Committee and, particularly, the U.S.-Russia Standards Working Group. Best Regards -Original Message- From: Edward Fitzgerald [SMTP:edward.fitzger...@ets-tele.com] Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 3:14 AM To: 'Maxwell, Chris' Cc: EMC-PSTC (E-mail) Subject: RE: Russian Certification of Products Dear Chris, Only one rule is common throughout this region (and you should keep reminding yourself of it)... ... and it is that there are no rules! Well okay, there is a framework of rules and Laws that you must operate within, but these are loosely interpreted and the game is how you operate within that framework. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to paint a negative picture or sell anyone my firm's services - I'm just saying it how it is. Do not be mistaken that any amount of test data you already hold will reduce the certification costs payable to the labs/test centres in Russia, this will just make life a little easier for you (well relatively) as it is a documentation intensive. I must concur with Vitaly's comments and also add that you should not let your sales people do the negotiation for you! They may be shrewd when closing deals with customers, but they are negotiating within their own field of expertise - approvals and certification is completely different. They may get what they perceive is a good deal, but it'll be more than you should be paying. Please also note that the contracts will state that the visiting Russian Engineers must be paid around 100 USD per day for expenses - in reality this is pocket money, as your company will already be paying for flights, accommodation, other travel costs, entertainment and subsistence in addition to the contract price! So the number of engineers and the length of their visit(s) also have the potential of the overall costs. I've produced an explanatory overview for our clients, let me know if you'd like a copy. Best regards, Edward Edward Fitzgerald Director Direct Tel. : +44 1202 20 09 22 GSM Tel. : +44 7768 53 31 00 European Technology Services (EMEA) Specialist Global Compliance and Regulatory Consultancy Regional Offices in Australia, Canada and the UK. GLOBAL INtelLIGENCE Site http://www.ets-tele.com/tics psst ... spread the word ! -Original Message- From: Maxwell, Chris [mailto:chr...@gnlp.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 8:54 PM To: 'EMC-PSTC Internet Forum' Subject: Russian Certification of Products Our sales people in Russia have started the process of Certifying our equipment to sell in Russia. The two agencies that they are working with are Gosstandart and the Ministry of Communication. According to them, the certification will consist of an inspection of all of our existing Compliance Documentation including ISO-9000 certification, EMC Test Data (for the products of interest), Safety Test Data (for the products of interest), Environmental Test Data including heat, frost, moisture, vibration, and blow (what is that?) along with other inspections of our calibration equipment and methods. We are also being asked to pay for a trip to the US for 3 people from the Ministry of Communication and Gosstandart (6 people total) for 7 days each. The total is a staggering $44,000 (either cash or wire transfer). Note that all of the actions being performed for this are inspections of existing documentation, not actual testing. So in the end, they will decide to certify our products based upon existing documentation, testing... I have
RE: NEBS 2000 Conferences
I attended one of the very first NEBS seminars held, a few years back. It was hosted by Bellcore (now known as Telcordia). They are the ones who wrote the specs., with input from the RBOCs (although some of the RBOCs may have additional requirements, and some also make the 'objective' specs in NEBS, 'required' specs to get into their CO). Going back to your question, as to which one to attend, personally I would prefer to attend the one hosted by the authors of the specification. Make sense? In either one, there will be reps from the various RBOCs. John Juhasz Fiber Options Bohemia, NY -Original Message- From: CHRIS WELLBORN [mailto:chris.wellb...@adtran.com] Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 10:01 AM To: NEBS Forum; EMC-PSTC Forum Subject: NEBS 2000 Conferences I would just like to share some information that I obtained this morning concerning the above conferences. Telcordia and Bell Atlantic will be hosting the NEBS conference in Baltimore on October 4-5, 2000. The preliminary agenda and key speakers are shown at the following website: http://www.800teachme.com/nebsagenda.html Underwriters Laboratories and US West will be hosting a NEBS 2000 conference in Las Vegas on October 4-6, 2000. The preliminary agenda and key speakers will be provided on their website in the near future. I was informed that Michael Bentley from US West will be one of the chairmen for this conference. Which one should you attend? Future details will be available at both the Telcordia and UL websites. Chris Wellborn Regulatory Compliance Engineer ADTRAN Voice: (256) 963-8906 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Re: Spanish analog interface
Are you speaking of Telefonica and Spain ? If yes, part of the answer ... * Concerning analog telephone interfaces, you can tests them against TBR21 in any accredited lab within EU or outside, for the regulatory part, before april, 8th 2000 (RTTE directive, refer to others messages on that topic). After april, 8th 2000 : analog telephone can access to EU market under RTTE Directive, which prescribes, for thaht equipment compliance against LVD and EMC directives only. Interworking with network is no longer essential requirement. Anyhow, it is interesting to get TBR21 and the guide associated with (EG 201 I think ?) which contains specific national requirements. And in few weeks, to carefully read the interface notification the operator has to publish. * Concerning specific requirements for that country and/or operator, perhaps CETECOM lab can help : www.cetecom.com (they have testing facilities in Malaga, Spain). Hope that helps. Corinne SALINGRE Approvals Manager CS TELECOM, France Bruce Benzie wrote: Can anyone inform me who, or what agency tests analog telephone interfaces to conform for connection to the Spanish Telephone Co. thanks, bruce benzie bben...@rma.edu --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Re: EMC Safety: requirements for BCIQ approval
To all those who replied to my posting, Thank you. (I wonder how many deleted it thinking it was on the proposed split. [A Bad Idea] It was tricky trying to compose a title that would get through and also go along with the proposal for prefixes of EMC and or Safety! ) -- Regards Dave Instone. Compliance Engineer Test Systems, MP24/22 Xyratex, Langstone Rd., Havant, Hampshire, P09 1SA, UK. Tel: +44 (0)23-92-496862 (direct line) Fax: +44 (0)23-92-496014 http://www.xyratex.com Tel: +44 (0)23-92-486363 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Re: Insulation of energized water (De-Ionized Water)
A long time ago, while I was a member of Uncle Sams Canoe Club, I worked on a radar system that used D.I. Water. The tubes in the liquid cooler were copper and the heat exchanger was CRES. The water was circulated throughout the transmitter group and through a Klystron where it was heated and back to the cooler. Water temp during normal operation was just over 160 degrees F., as I recall. Every three months we had to run a descaler solution through the system. During periods of high operation (transmitter up and running while at sea), we got more green sludge out of the pipes than we got out during periods of in-port operation (transmitter shut off and water temp around 60 degrees F.). Therefore, at least in my experience, Higher temperature operation does impact the use of copper pipes. Other items of note. The liquid cooler also had a micron filter to trap impurities and a conductivity meter to test the conductivity of the water. A glycol solution was also added. Hello group, I have a product that uses cooling water and at one point within the system the water is energized to a high voltage level. There are several mechanisms used to insure that the water is safe before exiting the system. I would like to be able to use De-Ionized or Triple Distilled water for insulation as this would simplify the design. In this design there would be full time monitoring of the quality of the water. One problem is that DI water causes corrosion of copper pipes unless the inner surfaces of the pipes are plated with some other material, or so I have heard . . . Recently there have been some fairly convincing arguments that this is not a problem, for water at lower temperatures (100 deg C). These arguments are based on an ASTM Publication now out of print, Symposium on High-Purity Water Corrosion presented at the annual meeting of the ASTM in 1955. I believe this presentation was mostly concerned with cooling water in nuclear reactors and very high water temperatures. As a result of this, I am now confused as to who is right. Is anyone able to provide some insight into this? -doug = Douglas E. Powell Regulatory Compliance Engineer Advanced Energy Industries, Inc. 1625 Sharp Point Dr. Ft. Collins, Co 80525 mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com http:\\www.advanced-energy.com\ = --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Re: Russian Certification of Products and other countries
Dear Rene, It sounds as if you have been offended by my comments. If this is the case I apologise for this. I did mention in my reply (without being rude). Any way, when I said on a daily basis, it was meant as a example. What it meant that they change frequently. For example if you want to know about a particular regulatory matter in USA or part of Europe, you will be able to get the appropraite answers within a couple of days and by a few e-mails or phone call. Basically very simple procedures. In the other hand if one need to get the same information from a far eastern country or Asian country, etc, it would take weeks rather than days and at the end you end up with 80% info and not 100%. The only way to get to these countries is to go through a 3rd party like your company (TUV) or UL or others. I know this as I have done it many times and I can assure you that many of our friends in this group will agree. Remember that some of these countries as one of our friend pointed out have just started to make the rules and regulations and therefore cash in on the regulatory matters. This is where the local test house makes one rule, then customs make another rule and on top of that their local government makes a different rule. Please don't be offended, I was just trying to point out the headache that we manufacturers have to go through if we want to by pass the middle man and go direct.We all know that there are individual consultants or test houses that charge a fee and handle all the procedure, but what about if one decides to go direct? That is when all the fun starts. Again it was not meant to offence any individual country or organization. Thanks Kevin --- r...@twn.tuv.com wrote: What about Japan, AustraliaNewZealand, South Africa, Argentina, Mexico... In many Asian Countries (Taiwan, China, Korea, Hongkong.) rules are just being set up. This implies that there are frequent changes, but not on daily basis. And changes are implemented according to a schedule. Can you show me a similar schedule for the stock exchange? If you can, I will change my Job immediately. Rene Charton Kevin Newland kevin_newl...@yahoo.com on 03/16/2000 06:59:11 AM Please respond to Kevin Newland kevin_newl...@yahoo.com To: Maxwell, Chris chr...@gnlp.com, 'EMC-PSTC Internet Forum' emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org cc:(bcc: Rene Charton/TUV-Twn) Subject: Re: Russian Certification of Products Chris, Just remember that with the exception of Western European countries,USA and Canada, the rest of the world (without being rude) have not really have a solid rule for anything. These countries rules and regulation changes daily (just like stock exchange) without any notice or explanation). This is sadly the real life and we live in it. Thanks Kevin --- Maxwell, Chris chr...@gnlp.com wrote: Our sales people in Russia have started the process of Certifying our equipment to sell in Russia. The two agencies that they are working with are Gosstandart and the Ministry of Communication. According to them, the certification will consist of an inspection of all of our existing Compliance Documentation including ISO-9000 certification, EMC Test Data (for the products of interest), Safety Test Data (for the products of interest), Environmental Test Data including heat, frost, moisture, vibration, and blow (what is that?) along with other inspections of our calibration equipment and methods. We are also being asked to pay for a trip to the US for 3 people from the Ministry of Communication and Gosstandart (6 people total) for 7 days each. The total is a staggering $44,000 (either cash or wire transfer). Note that all of the actions being performed for this are inspections of existing documentation, not actual testing. So in the end, they will decide to certify our products based upon existing documentation, testing... I have never experienced this before. It appears to be a great deal of expense for not much substance. Is this typical? Has anybody else out there certified products with these agencies? By the way, we typically classify our product as light industrial test and measurement equipment and already have solid testing and documentation to to EN 61326-1 (EMC), EN 61010-1 (Safety) and EN 60825-1 (Laser Safety). Does this give us any kind of out? Chris Maxwell, Design Engineer GN Nettest Optical Division 109 N. Genesee St. Utica, NY 13502 PH: 315-797-4449 FAX: 315-797-8024 EMAIL: chr...@gnlp.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators:
RE: EMC and product safety split?
Still better, only important chatter should be posted. I have just violated my suggestion. Dave -Original Message- From: John Coyle [mailto:jco...@norsat.com] Sent: 10 March, 2000 5:15 PM To: 'Robert Legg'; 'IEEE EMC-PSTC Forum' Subject: RE: EMC and product safety split? A better solution, if possible would be a digest format sent on a daily basis. John Coyle Engineering Manager, Cable Products . Tel: 604-292-9161 fax: 604-292-9010 jco...@norsat.com -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Robert Legg Sent: Friday, March 10, 2000 10:33 AM To: IEEE EMC-PSTC Forum Subject: EMC and product safety split? Is there any possibility of getting the EMC and product safety postings partitioned ~ to assist in cutting surplus mail traffic? Rob Legg rl...@tectrol.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: EN standard for pacemaker immunity
Mike, A1:1996 of EN50061:1995 has the EMC requirements for implantable cardiac pacemakers. It can be ordered on the web from BSI. Richard Woods Sunning in Florida -- From: Michael Taylor [SMTP:mtay...@hach.com] Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 9:19 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: EN standard for pacemaker immunity Greetings all. An issue came up that needs answers as soon as possible. Does anyone in the group know if there are any European standards covering pacemaker (and similar devices) immunity to Electric Magnetic fields. A search of Global Eng. Documents product list proved fruitless. I'm sure there is someone in the group that has the answer. I will be most grateful for any answers or leads on this issue. Best regards. Michael Taylor Snowed-in, in Colorado. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
EN standard for pacemaker immunity
Greetings all. An issue came up that needs answers as soon as possible. Does anyone in the group know if there are any European standards covering pacemaker (and similar devices) immunity to Electric Magnetic fields. A search of Global Eng. Documents product list proved fruitless. I'm sure there is someone in the group that has the answer. I will be most grateful for any answers or leads on this issue. Best regards. Michael Taylor Snowed-in, in Colorado. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: Antenna factors to be used for NSA measurement
Thank you Robert for a well detailed response. Even though this issue seems to come up every year, more clarification is the outcome. Your response clarifies issues that were not as fully addressed (or at least not fully understood by me) in previous threads. I'll call this Chapter Three of my ever ongoing NSA studies. Don Umbdenstock . -- From: Robert Bonsen[SMTP:rbon...@orionscientific.com] Reply To: Robert Bonsen Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 7:02 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Antenna factors to be used for NSA measurement A well designed antenna will be balanced, i.e., it will be geometry independent. Looking at the factors for our 3110b, they look very nearly the same for horizontal and vertical polarization as well as at 3 meters and 10 meters. This suggests we should save the money for this model antenna and have 1 factor verified (10 meter horizontal) instead of having 4 factors verified. IMHO this is not completely accurate. There is not such thing as a geometry independent antenna factor, bad antenna balance/design only has an aggrevating influence on a physical inevitability. Check Zhong Chen's and Michael Foegelle's article in the 1998 IEEE EMC Conference proceedings, entitled A numerical investigation of ground plane effects on biconical antenna factor. In that paper they prove that even for an ideal antenna, with a perfect balance, the physics/geometry of the setup (due to the presence of the ground plane which alters the incident plane wave as well as coupling between the antenna and its image under the ground plane) inherently result in differences in antenna factors between polarizations, antenna heights and test distances. Actual antenna factor measurements as well as basic antenna physics back up this theory. By the way, Zhong and Michael work for ETS, manufacturer of the 3110B. Measured and predicted data on 3110Bs and other antennas (BiLog, other biconicals) show that for 2m transmit antenna height, which is pretty much the standard Tx antenna height cal labs test at, the vertical and horizontal factors are usually very close. However, once you lower the antenna transmit height to 1m (vertical and horizontal) and 1.5m (vertical only), substantial differences exist not only between antenna factors at different polarizations but also between the factors at different antenna heights for the same polarization. These differences can be several dBs, which is introduced as a measurement error in your NSA measurement if you use a factor which is not measured at the same height you're measuring your NSA at. This effect is more noticeable at shorter range length. Hence, 10m factors tend to be closer together than 3m factors. However, chamber and OATS performance at 10m range length is more critical than at 3m so this tends to even out. For chamber NSA measurements, the aforementioned variations in AF with height and polarization prove to be sufficient to bring a chamber out in a lot of cases, or make its performance look worse than it really is. This becomes a money issue when chamber manufacturers sign up for better-than-4-dB performance. For OATSes, there is a substantial performance margin so antenna factor error, although it has a negative effect on measurement accuracy, will not bring the OATS out of spec. I've been involved in OATS calibrations in which the performance margin was not sufficient to bring the OATS in, whereas when proper antenna cal factors were used the OATS passed well within spec. FYI, I used to work for ETS as a chamber design engineer before becoming an independent consultant. As such I've done quite a few antenna calibrations on 3110Bs and other bicons and combination bicon-logperiodic to be used for NSA calibrations, geometry specific for different test distances. Experience shows that at the low end, up to about 200 MHz, it can be almost mandatory to have geometry specific antenna factors because of the potential substantial measurement error introduced by using wrong antenna factors. Because of higher directivity, antenna factor variations are reduced at higher frequencies (where log-periodics are used), and a single antenna factor typically suffices. Unfortunately, not all organizations and experts were aware of this issue, or ignored it. That's why ANSI C63.5-1998 is written the way it is. The problem of antenna factor variations with different geometries is ignored because for EUT measurements it does not pose an immediate problem. However it is an issue with normalized site attenunation measurements. More work is currently being done in this area and the issues are being addressed. -Robert Robert Bonsen Principal Consultant Orion Scientific email: rbon...@orionscientific.com URL: http://www.orionscientific.com phone: (512) 347 7393; FAX: (512) 328 9240
RE: Russian Certification of Products
Dear Chris, Only one rule is common throughout this region (and you should keep reminding yourself of it)... ... and it is that there are no rules! Well okay, there is a framework of rules and Laws that you must operate within, but these are loosely interpreted and the game is how you operate within that framework. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to paint a negative picture or sell anyone my firm's services - I'm just saying it how it is. Do not be mistaken that any amount of test data you already hold will reduce the certification costs payable to the labs/test centres in Russia, this will just make life a little easier for you (well relatively) as it is a documentation intensive. I must concur with Vitaly's comments and also add that you should not let your sales people do the negotiation for you! They may be shrewd when closing deals with customers, but they are negotiating within their own field of expertise - approvals and certification is completely different. They may get what they perceive is a good deal, but it'll be more than you should be paying. Please also note that the contracts will state that the visiting Russian Engineers must be paid around 100 USD per day for expenses - in reality this is pocket money, as your company will already be paying for flights, accommodation, other travel costs, entertainment and subsistence in addition to the contract price! So the number of engineers and the length of their visit(s) also have the potential of the overall costs. I've produced an explanatory overview for our clients, let me know if you'd like a copy. Best regards, Edward Edward Fitzgerald Director Direct Tel. : +44 1202 20 09 22 GSM Tel. : +44 7768 53 31 00 European Technology Services (EMEA) Specialist Global Compliance and Regulatory Consultancy Regional Offices in Australia, Canada and the UK. GLOBAL INtelLIGENCE Site http://www.ets-tele.com/tics psst ... spread the word ! -Original Message- From: Maxwell, Chris [mailto:chr...@gnlp.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 8:54 PM To: 'EMC-PSTC Internet Forum' Subject: Russian Certification of Products Our sales people in Russia have started the process of Certifying our equipment to sell in Russia. The two agencies that they are working with are Gosstandart and the Ministry of Communication. According to them, the certification will consist of an inspection of all of our existing Compliance Documentation including ISO-9000 certification, EMC Test Data (for the products of interest), Safety Test Data (for the products of interest), Environmental Test Data including heat, frost, moisture, vibration, and blow (what is that?) along with other inspections of our calibration equipment and methods. We are also being asked to pay for a trip to the US for 3 people from the Ministry of Communication and Gosstandart (6 people total) for 7 days each. The total is a staggering $44,000 (either cash or wire transfer). Note that all of the actions being performed for this are inspections of existing documentation, not actual testing. So in the end, they will decide to certify our products based upon existing documentation, testing... I have never experienced this before. It appears to be a great deal of expense for not much substance. Is this typical? Has anybody else out there certified products with these agencies? By the way, we typically classify our product as light industrial test and measurement equipment and already have solid testing and documentation to to EN 61326-1 (EMC), EN 61010-1 (Safety) and EN 60825-1 (Laser Safety). Does this give us any kind of out? Chris Maxwell, Design Engineer GN Nettest Optical Division 109 N. Genesee St. Utica, NY 13502 PH: 315-797-4449 FAX: 315-797-8024 EMAIL: chr...@gnlp.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Re: Russian Certification of Products and other countries
What you need is a list of recommended Certifying Centers that are providing a service to their non-Russian clients. Please drop me an email describing your broad product family and I will dig them out from the files. Jerry Roberton Use ,jerryrober...@netscapeonline.co.uk Bruce Touzel wrote: you will also find that some countries will ask for everything that you have on file, eg. DOC's, Network reports, etc. simply because they don't know themselves. r...@twn.tuv.com wrote: What about Japan, AustraliaNewZealand, South Africa, Argentina, Mexico... In many Asian Countries (Taiwan, China, Korea, Hongkong.) rules are just being set up. This implies that there are frequent changes, but not on daily basis. And changes are implemented according to a schedule. Can you show me a similar schedule for the stock exchange? If you can, I will change my Job immediately. Rene Charton Kevin Newland kevin_newl...@yahoo.com on 03/16/2000 06:59:11 AM Please respond to Kevin Newland kevin_newl...@yahoo.com To: Maxwell, Chris chr...@gnlp.com, 'EMC-PSTC Internet Forum' emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org cc:(bcc: Rene Charton/TUV-Twn) Subject: Re: Russian Certification of Products Chris, Just remember that with the exception of Western European countries,USA and Canada, the rest of the world (without being rude) have not really have a solid rule for anything. These countries rules and regulation changes daily (just like stock exchange) without any notice or explanation). This is sadly the real life and we live in it. Thanks Kevin --- Maxwell, Chris chr...@gnlp.com wrote: Our sales people in Russia have started the process of Certifying our equipment to sell in Russia. The two agencies that they are working with are Gosstandart and the Ministry of Communication. According to them, the certification will consist of an inspection of all of our existing Compliance Documentation including ISO-9000 certification, EMC Test Data (for the products of interest), Safety Test Data (for the products of interest), Environmental Test Data including heat, frost, moisture, vibration, and blow (what is that?) along with other inspections of our calibration equipment and methods. We are also being asked to pay for a trip to the US for 3 people from the Ministry of Communication and Gosstandart (6 people total) for 7 days each. The total is a staggering $44,000 (either cash or wire transfer). Note that all of the actions being performed for this are inspections of existing documentation, not actual testing. So in the end, they will decide to certify our products based upon existing documentation, testing... I have never experienced this before. It appears to be a great deal of expense for not much substance. Is this typical? Has anybody else out there certified products with these agencies? By the way, we typically classify our product as light industrial test and measurement equipment and already have solid testing and documentation to to EN 61326-1 (EMC), EN 61010-1 (Safety) and EN 60825-1 (Laser Safety). Does this give us any kind of out? Chris Maxwell, Design Engineer GN Nettest Optical Division 109 N. Genesee St. Utica, NY 13502 PH: 315-797-4449 FAX: 315-797-8024 EMAIL: chr...@gnlp.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson: pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org __ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line:
RE: Signal Integrity/EMC Software
Hi All I have recently undertook a study of such software and found two options that seem to be suprisingly accurate with their predictions: Viewlogic tools and EMC Workbench. The one thing I realised quickly is that the cheap and nasty packages do not always give correct and/or accurate results, i.e. beware !!! Yours faithfully FA Venter (PR. Eng.) Alcatel Altech Telecoms Senior Development Engineer - EMC fven...@alcatel.altech.co.za PO Box 286, Boksburg, 1460, South Africa Tel +2711 899-6658 Fax +2711 899-6590 -Original Message- From: WOODS [SMTP:wo...@sensormatic.com] Sent: 15 March 2000 08:24 To: emc-pstc Cc: WOODS Subject:Signal Integrity/EMC Software Software add-ons exist for PCB layout packages that predict signal integrity (e.g. ringing) and rf emission sources in digital circuits. My company is considering this software for use with clock speeds in the order of 30-60 MHz. I am interesting in hearing from those who may have experience with these prediction packages at these frequencies. Are they useful? Considering the price and effort, are the worth it? Do you have any particular brand recommendations? Richard Woods --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org attachment: WINMAIL.DAT
RE: Russian Certification of Products
Chris, I know very little of the category of your product, light industrial test and measurement equipment. But I have been through numerous product GOST-R certifications. My clients included Compaq, Applied Materials, HP, etc. I am afraid that few things have changed since I got out of this business. Your reps in Moscow should have worked with neither GOSSTANDART nor the Ministry of Communications. All should be done through Certification Centers accredited/appointed by GOSSTANDART, National Administration for Standardization, according to product category (and HB Tariff Code). The Telecom certificates can be obtained from Telecom Certification Centers (about 30 of them) appointed by the Ministry of Communications, GOSSVIAZ. Selective appointments, again, are based on category of equipment (terminal or wireless). For test and measurement equipment, there are metrological aspects which are, typically, handled by Metrology Centers (such as Mendeleev Institute in St. Petersburg). Russians are very smart and shrewd negotiators who have learned capitalistic principles of making profit, especially, when they realize that customers are not aware of available options. Russians are much better familiar with US certification system than we are familiar with GOST-R or any other Russian certification procedures. GOOD LUCK, Vitaly Gorodetsky -Original Message- From: Maxwell, Chris [SMTP:chr...@gnlp.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 12:54 PM To: 'EMC-PSTC Internet Forum' Subject: Russian Certification of Products Our sales people in Russia have started the process of Certifying our equipment to sell in Russia. The two agencies that they are working with are Gosstandart and the Ministry of Communication. According to them, the certification will consist of an inspection of all of our existing Compliance Documentation including ISO-9000 certification, EMC Test Data (for the products of interest), Safety Test Data (for the products of interest), Environmental Test Data including heat, frost, moisture, vibration, and blow (what is that?) along with other inspections of our calibration equipment and methods. We are also being asked to pay for a trip to the US for 3 people from the Ministry of Communication and Gosstandart (6 people total) for 7 days each. The total is a staggering $44,000 (either cash or wire transfer). Note that all of the actions being performed for this are inspections of existing documentation, not actual testing. So in the end, they will decide to certify our products based upon existing documentation, testing... I have never experienced this before. It appears to be a great deal of expense for not much substance. Is this typical? Has anybody else out there certified products with these agencies? By the way, we typically classify our product as light industrial test and measurement equipment and already have solid testing and documentation to to EN 61326-1 (EMC), EN 61010-1 (Safety) and EN 60825-1 (Laser Safety). Does this give us any kind of out? Chris Maxwell, Design Engineer GN Nettest Optical Division 109 N. Genesee St. Utica, NY 13502 PH: 315-797-4449 FAX: 315-797-8024 EMAIL: chr...@gnlp.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Re: Russian Certification of Products and other countries
you will also find that some countries will ask for everything that you have on file, eg. DOC's, Network reports, etc. simply because they don't know themselves. r...@twn.tuv.com wrote: What about Japan, AustraliaNewZealand, South Africa, Argentina, Mexico... In many Asian Countries (Taiwan, China, Korea, Hongkong.) rules are just being set up. This implies that there are frequent changes, but not on daily basis. And changes are implemented according to a schedule. Can you show me a similar schedule for the stock exchange? If you can, I will change my Job immediately. Rene Charton Kevin Newland kevin_newl...@yahoo.com on 03/16/2000 06:59:11 AM Please respond to Kevin Newland kevin_newl...@yahoo.com To: Maxwell, Chris chr...@gnlp.com, 'EMC-PSTC Internet Forum' emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org cc:(bcc: Rene Charton/TUV-Twn) Subject: Re: Russian Certification of Products Chris, Just remember that with the exception of Western European countries,USA and Canada, the rest of the world (without being rude) have not really have a solid rule for anything. These countries rules and regulation changes daily (just like stock exchange) without any notice or explanation). This is sadly the real life and we live in it. Thanks Kevin --- Maxwell, Chris chr...@gnlp.com wrote: Our sales people in Russia have started the process of Certifying our equipment to sell in Russia. The two agencies that they are working with are Gosstandart and the Ministry of Communication. According to them, the certification will consist of an inspection of all of our existing Compliance Documentation including ISO-9000 certification, EMC Test Data (for the products of interest), Safety Test Data (for the products of interest), Environmental Test Data including heat, frost, moisture, vibration, and blow (what is that?) along with other inspections of our calibration equipment and methods. We are also being asked to pay for a trip to the US for 3 people from the Ministry of Communication and Gosstandart (6 people total) for 7 days each. The total is a staggering $44,000 (either cash or wire transfer). Note that all of the actions being performed for this are inspections of existing documentation, not actual testing. So in the end, they will decide to certify our products based upon existing documentation, testing... I have never experienced this before. It appears to be a great deal of expense for not much substance. Is this typical? Has anybody else out there certified products with these agencies? By the way, we typically classify our product as light industrial test and measurement equipment and already have solid testing and documentation to to EN 61326-1 (EMC), EN 61010-1 (Safety) and EN 60825-1 (Laser Safety). Does this give us any kind of out? Chris Maxwell, Design Engineer GN Nettest Optical Division 109 N. Genesee St. Utica, NY 13502 PH: 315-797-4449 FAX: 315-797-8024 EMAIL: chr...@gnlp.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson: pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org __ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail
Re: Russian Certification of Products and other countries
What about Japan, AustraliaNewZealand, South Africa, Argentina, Mexico... In many Asian Countries (Taiwan, China, Korea, Hongkong.) rules are just being set up. This implies that there are frequent changes, but not on daily basis. And changes are implemented according to a schedule. Can you show me a similar schedule for the stock exchange? If you can, I will change my Job immediately. Rene Charton Kevin Newland kevin_newl...@yahoo.com on 03/16/2000 06:59:11 AM Please respond to Kevin Newland kevin_newl...@yahoo.com To: Maxwell, Chris chr...@gnlp.com, 'EMC-PSTC Internet Forum' emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org cc:(bcc: Rene Charton/TUV-Twn) Subject: Re: Russian Certification of Products Chris, Just remember that with the exception of Western European countries,USA and Canada, the rest of the world (without being rude) have not really have a solid rule for anything. These countries rules and regulation changes daily (just like stock exchange) without any notice or explanation). This is sadly the real life and we live in it. Thanks Kevin --- Maxwell, Chris chr...@gnlp.com wrote: Our sales people in Russia have started the process of Certifying our equipment to sell in Russia. The two agencies that they are working with are Gosstandart and the Ministry of Communication. According to them, the certification will consist of an inspection of all of our existing Compliance Documentation including ISO-9000 certification, EMC Test Data (for the products of interest), Safety Test Data (for the products of interest), Environmental Test Data including heat, frost, moisture, vibration, and blow (what is that?) along with other inspections of our calibration equipment and methods. We are also being asked to pay for a trip to the US for 3 people from the Ministry of Communication and Gosstandart (6 people total) for 7 days each. The total is a staggering $44,000 (either cash or wire transfer). Note that all of the actions being performed for this are inspections of existing documentation, not actual testing. So in the end, they will decide to certify our products based upon existing documentation, testing... I have never experienced this before. It appears to be a great deal of expense for not much substance. Is this typical? Has anybody else out there certified products with these agencies? By the way, we typically classify our product as light industrial test and measurement equipment and already have solid testing and documentation to to EN 61326-1 (EMC), EN 61010-1 (Safety) and EN 60825-1 (Laser Safety). Does this give us any kind of out? Chris Maxwell, Design Engineer GN Nettest Optical Division 109 N. Genesee St. Utica, NY 13502 PH: 315-797-4449 FAX: 315-797-8024 EMAIL: chr...@gnlp.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson: pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org __ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Insulation of energized water (De-Ionized Water)
Hello group, I have a product that uses cooling water and at one point within the system the water is energized to a high voltage level. There are several mechanisms used to insure that the water is safe before exiting the system. I would like to be able to use De-Ionized or Triple Distilled water for insulation as this would simplify the design. In this design there would be full time monitoring of the quality of the water. One problem is that DI water causes corrosion of copper pipes unless the inner surfaces of the pipes are plated with some other material, or so I have heard . . . Recently there have been some fairly convincing arguments that this is not a problem, for water at lower temperatures (100 deg C). These arguments are based on an ASTM Publication now out of print, Symposium on High-Purity Water Corrosion presented at the annual meeting of the ASTM in 1955. I believe this presentation was mostly concerned with cooling water in nuclear reactors and very high water temperatures. As a result of this, I am now confused as to who is right. Is anyone able to provide some insight into this? -doug = Douglas E. Powell Regulatory Compliance Engineer Advanced Energy Industries, Inc. 1625 Sharp Point Dr. Ft. Collins, Co 80525 mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com http:\\www.advanced-energy.com\ = --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: Antenna factors to be used for NSA measurement
A well designed antenna will be balanced, i.e., it will be geometry independent. Looking at the factors for our 3110b, they look very nearly the same for horizontal and vertical polarization as well as at 3 meters and 10 meters. This suggests we should save the money for this model antenna and have 1 factor verified (10 meter horizontal) instead of having 4 factors verified. IMHO this is not completely accurate. There is not such thing as a geometry independent antenna factor, bad antenna balance/design only has an aggrevating influence on a physical inevitability. Check Zhong Chen's and Michael Foegelle's article in the 1998 IEEE EMC Conference proceedings, entitled A numerical investigation of ground plane effects on biconical antenna factor. In that paper they prove that even for an ideal antenna, with a perfect balance, the physics/geometry of the setup (due to the presence of the ground plane which alters the incident plane wave as well as coupling between the antenna and its image under the ground plane) inherently result in differences in antenna factors between polarizations, antenna heights and test distances. Actual antenna factor measurements as well as basic antenna physics back up this theory. By the way, Zhong and Michael work for ETS, manufacturer of the 3110B. Measured and predicted data on 3110Bs and other antennas (BiLog, other biconicals) show that for 2m transmit antenna height, which is pretty much the standard Tx antenna height cal labs test at, the vertical and horizontal factors are usually very close. However, once you lower the antenna transmit height to 1m (vertical and horizontal) and 1.5m (vertical only), substantial differences exist not only between antenna factors at different polarizations but also between the factors at different antenna heights for the same polarization. These differences can be several dBs, which is introduced as a measurement error in your NSA measurement if you use a factor which is not measured at the same height you're measuring your NSA at. This effect is more noticeable at shorter range length. Hence, 10m factors tend to be closer together than 3m factors. However, chamber and OATS performance at 10m range length is more critical than at 3m so this tends to even out. For chamber NSA measurements, the aforementioned variations in AF with height and polarization prove to be sufficient to bring a chamber out in a lot of cases, or make its performance look worse than it really is. This becomes a money issue when chamber manufacturers sign up for better-than-4-dB performance. For OATSes, there is a substantial performance margin so antenna factor error, although it has a negative effect on measurement accuracy, will not bring the OATS out of spec. I've been involved in OATS calibrations in which the performance margin was not sufficient to bring the OATS in, whereas when proper antenna cal factors were used the OATS passed well within spec. FYI, I used to work for ETS as a chamber design engineer before becoming an independent consultant. As such I've done quite a few antenna calibrations on 3110Bs and other bicons and combination bicon-logperiodic to be used for NSA calibrations, geometry specific for different test distances. Experience shows that at the low end, up to about 200 MHz, it can be almost mandatory to have geometry specific antenna factors because of the potential substantial measurement error introduced by using wrong antenna factors. Because of higher directivity, antenna factor variations are reduced at higher frequencies (where log-periodics are used), and a single antenna factor typically suffices. Unfortunately, not all organizations and experts were aware of this issue, or ignored it. That's why ANSI C63.5-1998 is written the way it is. The problem of antenna factor variations with different geometries is ignored because for EUT measurements it does not pose an immediate problem. However it is an issue with normalized site attenunation measurements. More work is currently being done in this area and the issues are being addressed. -Robert Robert Bonsen Principal Consultant Orion Scientific email: rbon...@orionscientific.com URL: http://www.orionscientific.com phone: (512) 347 7393; FAX: (512) 328 9240 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
