In message 002e01cccee4$78059980$6810cc80$@wellman.com, dated Mon, 9
Jan 2012, Ron Wellman rwell...@wellman.com writes:
unless you expect to use a Time of Flight Mass Spectrometer in your
kitchen or living room
Doesn't everyone?
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and
In message cb30537f.19ede%william.mo...@careinnovations.com, dated
Mon, 9 Jan 2012, Morse, William william.mo...@careinnovations.com
writes:
The market segment and location of use may also add requirements based
on customer needs, for example Assisted Living Facilities in New
Jersey. (and
: Monday, January 09, 2012 2:17 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Mandatory NRTL certification
As a European familiar with the CE marking system and the resultant free
market for goods across more than 30 countries, this debate has left me
utterly amazed!
Just plucking this bit
From: Bill Owsley [mailto:wdows...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2012 07:46
UL used to have to have a near monopoly and was a non-profit company to do
this.
Then the Federal law changed to implement the NRTL program so that there
are a number of
competitors
This misses the mark.
Hi Ron:
It appears that most of these laws are targeted at electrical consumer
products used in the home, not always a business or place of work.
Therefore, this goes to show that many product families are not identified
in these laws and they are not mandated to be NRTL listed unless you
Hi Bill:
State laws haven't cleaned up their text in all cases, and quite often, the
rhetoric used to describe safety approvals, still uses UL when NRTL is
meant.
No. I have been trying to say that NRTL is not
universal certification that is accepted in all
jurisdictions. (UL is
In message BB305AC5588E41A18E1E4E8EE504F327@RichardHPdv6, dated Mon, 9
Jan 2012, Richard Nute ri...@ieee.org writes:
Under electrical codes, NRTL certification is NOT
one-size-fits-all.
But is this efficient and desirable?
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and
Hello Rich,
My point exactly about what products are targeted. We have been through
these discussions many times in the past and the answer always comes up
that your product specific market environment drives third party
certification.
Best
Under electrical codes, NRTL certification is NOT
one-size-fits-all.
But is this efficient and desirable?
No, to both. Electrical codes are administered
by governments...
-
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety
Many layers of government...municipal, county, state...
-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Richard Nute
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2012 3:34 PM
To: 'John Woodgate'; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Mandatory NRTL certification
: Monday, January 09, 2012 3:42 PM
To: ri...@ieee.org; 'John Woodgate'; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Mandatory NRTL certification
Many layers of government...municipal, county, state...
-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Richard
-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Kunde,
Brian
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2012 1:04 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Mandatory NRTL certification
This begs the question, if certification to the electrical codes is all that
is required, can I get a certification for only the electric
As I mentioned in my previous posts the laws in 16 States do not specify any
exemptions for the type of equipment so based on that I believe that test,
measurement and laboratory would need to comply... there are 4 other
States which specifically specify consumer products so based on
Sorry Rich but I have to disagree as the CEA document I have shows State laws
which specifically call out an NRTL being mandatory to distribute electronic
equipment into those States...
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Richard Nute
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2012
A number states have adopted OSHA rules as their own, often withs mods.
Sent from my MetroPCS Wireless Phone
Tyra, John john_t...@bose.com wrote:
Sorry Rich but I have to disagree as the CEA document I have shows State laws
which specifically call out an NRTL being mandatory to distribute
In some of the States it specifies an NRTL or lab found to be acceptable by the
State Authorities
-Original Message-
From: Lg [mailto:wdows...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 12:46 PM
To: Tyra, John; 'ri...@ieee.org'; emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Cc: peterh...@aol.com
Subject:
I refer you to what Rich Nute posted.
From: Tyra, John [mailto:john_t...@bose.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 9:24 AM
To: 'Ron Wellman'; 'peterh...@aol.com'; 'EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG'
Subject: RE: Mandatory NRTL certification
As I mentioned in my previous posts the laws in 16
Post the document.
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Tyra, John
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 9:31 AM
To: 'ri...@ieee.org'; emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Cc: peterh...@aol.com
Subject: RE: Mandatory NRTL certification
Sorry Rich but I have to disagree as the CEA
It is a CEA members document so I cannot post it.
From: Ron Wellman [mailto:rwell...@wellman.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 12:59 PM
To: Tyra, John; ri...@ieee.org; 'emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org'
Cc: peterh...@aol.com
Subject: RE: Mandatory NRTL certification
Post the document.
From:
As other have mentioned there is another route you can go other than NRTL
listing in that you can have a field evaluation of a product but that is only
really financially feasible for high cost low production specialty equipment.
It may work for certain laboratory equipment but again it would
Hi John:
I don't understand your comment. Here is what
I said:
... some (but not all) AHJs defer
to the NRTL scheme for approval of labs that
can issue safety certifications that can be
accepted.
Most NRTLs are accepted by most AHJs.
Yes, some AHJs (not necessarily states)
O.K. Rich maybe we are saying the same thing? My point was an NRTL mark is
basically required to sell electronic product in some states.
From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 2:36 PM
To: Tyra, John; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Cc: peterh...@aol.com
Subject: RE:
Hi John:
O.K. Rich maybe we are saying the same thing? My point was an NRTL mark is
basically required to sell electronic product in some states.
Yes, an NRTL mark almost always satisfies both the
employer's compliance with OSHA and the local AHJ.
This is the way most of us do business.
The way the term NRTL has been used here is
mostly wrong. I want to clarify what the term
NRTL means.
In the U.S.A., NRTL certification is NOT
mandatory. Safety certification is NOT
mandatory.
The U.S.A. has two sets of drivers for safety
certification of electrical products:
1) The
Hi Peter,
While the NRTL program and NRTL approval is used by a variety of local
AHJs, employers and retailers, the program was developed by OSHA for
OSHA's purposes.
OSHA requires certain types of equipment
(http://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/prodcatg.html) to be approved by
an NRTL.
While there are no Federal laws requiring NRTL certification and marking of
electronic products there are laws in 16 States which require an NRTL mark for
mains connected electronic products...and laws in 4 other States which specify
consumer products only. CEA commissioned a State survey,
This question comes up about every two years and what it boils down to is a
catch 22. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. In my opinion, it is better
to do regardless of how unbalanced these requirements are within the United
States. As long as you budget for it and your management understands
John, would you happen to have a link to that survey?
Ian Schroeder
Regulatory Compliance Engineer
Echostar Technologies L.L.C.
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Tyra, John
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 7:34 AM
To: 'Ron Wellman';
Hi all,
Regardless of the OSHA requirements already addressed within this list,
don't lose sight of the fact that there's The Law of Economics at play
here as well. I don't believe any major retailer (Walmart, Target, K-Mart,
Sears, etc.) will accept electrical/electronic products without
immediately reply to sender that you have
received this message in error. Then permanently delete all copies of the
message. Thank you.
From: Ron Wellman [mailto:rwell...@wellman.com]
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 9:27 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Mandatory NRTL
: [PSES] Mandatory NRTL certification
Hi,
Kevin (from OSHA) thank you very much!! And Ron, point well taken. We are a
consultancy and test lab and work with small to medium size companies that
don’t have a clue and we get this question at least once a month. For
Household products
I don't see where companies really have much of a choice as this is a legal
requirement in 20 States for Consumer products
From: Ron Wellman [mailto:rwell...@wellman.com]
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 10:27 AM
To: Tyra, John; peterh...@aol.com; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: Mandatory
: [PSES] Mandatory NRTL certification
While there are no Federal laws requiring NRTL certification and marking of
electronic products there are laws in 16 States which require anNRTL mark for
mains connected electronic products…and laws in 4 otherStates which specify
consumer products only. CEA
-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Mandatory NRTL certification
interesting aspects of this topic
1) Authorities Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) that has adopted the National
Electrical Code (NEC) also place a requirement for an NRTL mark on a device. So
while there maybe no state requirements
In message
e9c52f9e77c43c49a56a22691b3680be229...@tk5ex14mbxc301.redmond.corp.micro
soft.com, dated Fri, 6 Jan 2012, Ted Eckert ted.eck...@microsoft.com
writes:
I?ve worked with low-volume and custom built-in equipment, and I would
recommend against having a field evaluation done by the AHJ.
Ted,
In an unrelated instance, one of my colleagues just had an occasion today to
discuss field evaluations with UL and was informed that they won't perform
field evaluations on equipment older than one year nor if the equipment does
not have a UL report.
Good day,
Richard Pittenger
Agency
For Consumer products I see your point, but what about test, measurement,
and laboratory equipment? These products are usually sold business to
business and it's really up to the Customer to decide if NRTL is required
for the sale.
Best regards,
Ron Wellman
From: Tyra, John
There is also the chance that the very expensive one-off piece equipment may be
damaged by the testing and disassembly it is subjected to in a field
inspection. Extra cost, time, and unsatisfied customer...
Brian Ceresney, CTech.
Regulatory Team Lead,
Delta-Q Technologies Corp.
3755 Willingdon
UL has two different services.
Field
Inspectionhttp://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/services/globalfieldservices/fieldservices/fieldinspections/
is to look at equipment that has a Listing report, but left the factory
without being UL marked. Field Inspection is done by an inspector who
hilarious amusing.
Regards,
Peter L. Tarver
*From:* Morse, William [mailto:william.mo...@careinnovations.com]
*Sent:* Friday, January 06, 2012 09:23
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] Mandatory NRTL certification
interesting aspects of this topic
1) Authorities
I was unaware that UL certifications had a 1 year shelf life. That
statement from UL devalues UL certification in a big way.
At a previous employer, we had an environmental chamber moved to a building
that had been renovated before we moved in. The AHJ red tagged the
chamber, because it
Hello All,
Today a colleague asked me a question as to why do we need NRTL certification
such as UL or CSA on any product in the US. I thought this was a good and
logical question and the way I answered it was that to the best of my
knowledge, OSHA requires that any products that is used in
, they are for safe for human for associated electronic device.
Regards
Tim
From: peterh...@aol.com [mailto:peterh...@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 9:41 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Mandatory NRTL certification
Hello All,
Today a colleague asked me a question
and so
on.
In all, they are for safe for human for associated electronic device.
Regards
Tim
From:peterh...@aol.com [mailto:peterh...@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 9:41 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Mandatory NRTL certification
Hello All,
Today a colleague
NRTL certification/listing is not mandatory for product Manufacturers. This
is a Customer driven requirement so your Customers can comply with local
OSHA requirements. If you don't want to list or certify your product that's
really a Marketing call. Also, it is my experience that most large
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