Re: modest proposal
Hi Egon, Languages are part of what is called culture, you remember? Sometimes its time to take a peanut and find-out it was grown on something bigger, and that thing was on something even bigger, and bigger, and bigger, the world. Paul On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:52:57 +0200, you wrote: This is really becoming a completely pointless discussion. Most of the people on this forum appear to be native English speakers. In my experience, native English speakers have absolutely no motivation or desire to learn any other language. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Fwd: Re: modest proposal
Sorry for bothering those who are not interested in. Rene, Please forgive me Fwding your email to the group. Barry Ma --- Start of forwarded message --- Subject: Re: modest proposal - unl at unu.edu To: Barry Ma barry...@altavista.com From: r...@twn.tuv.com List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:04:29 +0800 There is already a project running that will address item 1) of the mail shown below: http://www.unl.ias.unu.edu/ As the central concept of this project seems to be about grammar, it will probably not be able to fulfil the requirement of item 2) of the mail shown below. Learning vocabulary is learning facts, that might be done during sleeping (with a tape-machine running under the pillow). Grammar in my opinion is more a concept, a thing of logic. For learning grammar you probably have to be awake. Regards Rene Charton -- Barry Ma barry...@altavista.com on 03/28/2000 08:07:25 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org cc: Lou Gnecco l...@tempest-inc.com (bcc: Rene Charton/TUV-Twn) Subject: Re: modest proposal Hi Lou, There must be some day in the future, the artificial intelligence has been so well developed that (1) An instant interpreting machine built-in to your PC would automatically transfer any language you input (either typed or voiced) to any languages the other party would like to have. (2) Learning foreign language is a very pleasant process and can be completed in very short period of time even when you are in sleep. ... :-) Best Regards, Barry Ma b...@anritsu.com --- End of forwarded message --- For the largest MP3 index on the Web, go to http://mp3.altavista.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: modest proposal
Am I the only one receiving posts in duplicate? It seems that this has happened at least a dozen times. Joe Finlayson Manager, Compliance Engineering Telica, Inc. 734 Foster Street, Bldg. G, Suite 100 Marlboro, MA 01752 Tel:(508) 480-0909 x212 Fax:(508) 480-0922 Email: jfinlay...@telica.com -Original Message- From: Gert Gremmen [mailto:cet...@cetest.nl] Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 1:28 PM To: geor...@lexmark.com Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: modest proposal Thank you, Thank you, and applause Regards, Gert Gremmen, (Ing) ce-test, qualified testing === Web presence http://www.cetest.nl CE-shop http://www.cetest.nl/ce_shop.htm /-/ Compliance testing is our core business /-/ === -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of geor...@lexmark.com Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 6:20 PM To: m.r...@ieee.org Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: modest proposal Martin, Your post included the following: * We, the ugly Americans, want the world to conform to our native language. We're too lazy, stubborn, and arrogant to learn another language. You may be partially right, but I believe there is a much simpler explanation. It is human nature to do only that which we are motivated to do. The English speaking world has been fortunate in not having to learn another predominate language to conduct global business. This is probably due to the fact that most non-English speaking countries do not agree that French, German, Spanish, etc. are an acceptable alternate global langauge. Therefore, English may have won only by default. Here is what I remember of the U.S. interest in other languages. Prior to WWII U.S. schools taught Latin as a way to learn the root of words. There was a little French, German, and Spanish taught. After WWII, it was thought that we should be learning Russian, as the other major technical country. Then, in the '70's or so, it was thought that Japanese may be the main other language to learn. In summary, Americans have never had any reason to pick one particular other language to learn. Many have studied other languages, but more for personal than business reasons. Personally, I studied Spanish in high school, and German a few years ago, but am not fluent in either,as there are few opportunities to practive what little I learned. There are people in every country that are too lazy, stubborn, and arrogant to learn another language. But I find that educated professionals will learn what they need to learn to conduct business in their chosen career. Finally, I greatly respect and am thankful for the many non-English speaking peoples who have learned this very difficult langauge for global business purposes. For this reason, I am never critical of their English spelling or errors in grammer. I can only imagine the result of my trying to use German, French, etc.! Regards, George Alspaugh --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Re: modest proposal - unl at unu.edu
There is already a project running that will address item 1)of the mail shown below: http://www.unl.ias.unu.edu/ As the central concept of this project seems to be about grammar, it will probably not be able to fulfil the requirement of item 2)of the mail shown below. Learning vocabulary is learning facts, that might be done during sleeping (with a tape-machine running under the pillow). Grammar in my opinion is more a concept, a thing of logic. For learning grammar you probably have to be awake. Regards Rene Charton Barry Ma barry...@altavista.com on 03/28/2000 08:07:25 AM Please respond to Barry Ma barry...@altavista.com To: emc-p...@ieee.org cc: Lou Gnecco l...@tempest-inc.com (bcc: Rene Charton/TUV-Twn) Subject: Re: modest proposal Hi Lou, There must be some day in the future, the artificial intelligence has been so well developed that (1) An instant interpreting machine built-in to your PC would automatically transfer any language you input (either typed or voiced) to any languages the other party would like to have. (2) Learning foreign language is a very pleasant process and can be completed in very short period of time even when you are in sleep. ... :-) Best Regards, Barry Ma b...@anritsu.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: modest proposal
Jim, Trust me, apart from providing a bit of humour, these translation programs don't work worth a sheet. grin Mind you, the original creator of Babel Fish does give you the correct answer: 42. BTW, from the ego-deflating department, the country with the most English speaking people is India. The U.S. is just a minor player. Egon :-) At 07:26 PM 28/03/2000, Allan, James wrote: Muriel: Of time in when I perdo the paciencia with these babacas. Generally, this forum is good, but the times have as much boçalidade Well you sure stumped Babel Fish with some of that one. I for one respect the willingness of the non-Americans to put up with our arrogance and to converse with us in our limited capacity. Thanks to all of you. Jim Allan Senior Compliance Engineer Milgo Solutions Inc. E-mail james_al...@milgo.com __ Egon H. Varju, PEng E.H. Varju Associates Ltd. North Vancouver, Canada Tel: 1 604 985 5710 HAVE MODEM Fax: 1 604 273 5815 WILL TRAVEL E-mail: e...@varju.bc.ca eva...@compuserve.com egon.va...@csa-international.org __ --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: modest proposal
Ed, Thanks. Here is my basic $0.02. Most of time spent learning a foreign language is to remember vocabulary. This is not a creative job. The most precious resource - our brain should be gradually released from downloading burden. Barry Ma b...@anritsu.com -- On Tue, 28 March 2000, Price, Ed wrote: Barry: I've heard that your success rate depends entirely on the quality of the dictionary that you take to bed with you. Ahem grin Ed For the largest MP3 index on the Web, go to http://mp3.altavista.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: modest proposal
I think we are going to have fun with these PCs!Us humans create interesting bloopers, can you image what a PC translator could do Human example, that actually happened at the Monterey (Army) Language School some years ago: Translate the following (either from Russian to English, or perhaps it was English to Russian.): The firefighter rushed into the burning house and emerged carrying a child. Translation: The firefighter rushed into the burning house and came out pregnant. Tania Grant, tgr...@lucent.com mailto:tgr...@lucent.com Lucent Technologies, Communications Applications Group -- From: Doug [SMTP:dmck...@gte.net] Sent: Monday, March 27, 2000 7:11 PM To: EMC-PSTC Discussion Group Subject: Re: modest proposal I've heard efforts of a universal translator through Java being worked on as we speak. You'll be able to go to any website written in any language and see it in your default language. I only hope they fix the little language snafus that crop up. And perhaps the death of having to learn another language? Gosh, I hope not. - Doug Barry Ma wrote: Hi Lou, There must be some day in the future, the artificial intelligence has been so well developed that (1) An instant interpreting machine built-in to your PC would automatically transfer any language you input (either typed or voiced) to any languages the other party would like to have. (2) Learning foreign language is a very pleasant process and can be completed in very short period of time even when you are in sleep. ... :-) Best Regards, Barry Ma b...@anritsu.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: modest proposal
As always . . . very well written, George. -Original Message- From: geor...@lexmark.com [mailto:geor...@lexmark.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 11:20 AM To: m.r...@ieee.org Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: modest proposal Martin, Your post included the following: * We, the ugly Americans, want the world to conform to our native language. We're too lazy, stubborn, and arrogant to learn another language. You may be partially right, but I believe there is a much simpler explanation. It is human nature to do only that which we are motivated to do. The English speaking world has been fortunate in not having to learn another predominate language to conduct global business. This is probably due to the fact that most non-English speaking countries do not agree that French, German, Spanish, etc. are an acceptable alternate global langauge. Therefore, English may have won only by default. Here is what I remember of the U.S. interest in other languages. Prior to WWII U.S. schools taught Latin as a way to learn the root of words. There was a little French, German, and Spanish taught. After WWII, it was thought that we should be learning Russian, as the other major technical country. Then, in the '70's or so, it was thought that Japanese may be the main other language to learn. In summary, Americans have never had any reason to pick one particular other language to learn. Many have studied other languages, but more for personal than business reasons. Personally, I studied Spanish in high school, and German a few years ago, but am not fluent in either,as there are few opportunities to practive what little I learned. There are people in every country that are too lazy, stubborn, and arrogant to learn another language. But I find that educated professionals will learn what they need to learn to conduct business in their chosen career. Finally, I greatly respect and am thankful for the many non-English speaking peoples who have learned this very difficult langauge for global business purposes. For this reason, I am never critical of their English spelling or errors in grammer. I can only imagine the result of my trying to use German, French, etc.! Regards, George Alspaugh --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: modest proposal
Thank you, Thank you, and applause Regards, Gert Gremmen, (Ing) ce-test, qualified testing === Web presence http://www.cetest.nl CE-shop http://www.cetest.nl/ce_shop.htm /-/ Compliance testing is our core business /-/ === -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of geor...@lexmark.com Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 6:20 PM To: m.r...@ieee.org Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: modest proposal Martin, Your post included the following: * We, the ugly Americans, want the world to conform to our native language. We're too lazy, stubborn, and arrogant to learn another language. You may be partially right, but I believe there is a much simpler explanation. It is human nature to do only that which we are motivated to do. The English speaking world has been fortunate in not having to learn another predominate language to conduct global business. This is probably due to the fact that most non-English speaking countries do not agree that French, German, Spanish, etc. are an acceptable alternate global langauge. Therefore, English may have won only by default. Here is what I remember of the U.S. interest in other languages. Prior to WWII U.S. schools taught Latin as a way to learn the root of words. There was a little French, German, and Spanish taught. After WWII, it was thought that we should be learning Russian, as the other major technical country. Then, in the '70's or so, it was thought that Japanese may be the main other language to learn. In summary, Americans have never had any reason to pick one particular other language to learn. Many have studied other languages, but more for personal than business reasons. Personally, I studied Spanish in high school, and German a few years ago, but am not fluent in either,as there are few opportunities to practive what little I learned. There are people in every country that are too lazy, stubborn, and arrogant to learn another language. But I find that educated professionals will learn what they need to learn to conduct business in their chosen career. Finally, I greatly respect and am thankful for the many non-English speaking peoples who have learned this very difficult langauge for global business purposes. For this reason, I am never critical of their English spelling or errors in grammer. I can only imagine the result of my trying to use German, French, etc.! Regards, George Alspaugh --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org attachment: Gert Gremmen.vcf
Re: modest proposal
Martin, Your post included the following: * We, the ugly Americans, want the world to conform to our native language. We're too lazy, stubborn, and arrogant to learn another language. You may be partially right, but I believe there is a much simpler explanation. It is human nature to do only that which we are motivated to do. The English speaking world has been fortunate in not having to learn another predominate language to conduct global business. This is probably due to the fact that most non-English speaking countries do not agree that French, German, Spanish, etc. are an acceptable alternate global langauge. Therefore, English may have won only by default. Here is what I remember of the U.S. interest in other languages. Prior to WWII U.S. schools taught Latin as a way to learn the root of words. There was a little French, German, and Spanish taught. After WWII, it was thought that we should be learning Russian, as the other major technical country. Then, in the '70's or so, it was thought that Japanese may be the main other language to learn. In summary, Americans have never had any reason to pick one particular other language to learn. Many have studied other languages, but more for personal than business reasons. Personally, I studied Spanish in high school, and German a few years ago, but am not fluent in either,as there are few opportunities to practive what little I learned. There are people in every country that are too lazy, stubborn, and arrogant to learn another language. But I find that educated professionals will learn what they need to learn to conduct business in their chosen career. Finally, I greatly respect and am thankful for the many non-English speaking peoples who have learned this very difficult langauge for global business purposes. For this reason, I am never critical of their English spelling or errors in grammer. I can only imagine the result of my trying to use German, French, etc.! Regards, George Alspaugh --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Re: modest proposal
As perhaps the only member of this list who works for a publishing company, let me explain why a designed language won't work. * We, the ugly Americans, want the world to conform to our native language. We're too lazy, stubborn, and arrogant to learn another language. * A designed language with clear rules, spelling, and punctuation will throw lots of copy editors out of work. * There will always be new feelings, expressions, and physical objects that the designers of the universal language either didn't think we needed or that have come into existance after the adoption of the designed language. Languages change slowly over time. Eventually, the designed language will look like any other language. Languages change faster than editors think they do. I'll bet every one of you has said something like I need to access the data... Many magazine articles, that have supposedly pass through editors, contain the use of the word access as a verb. Around here, I'd have to write I need to gain access to the data because officially, the word access is a noun. Each of you would know what I mean if I were to use access as a verb, but professional editors will get confused and insist on using the word properly. So the bottom line is that speakers of a designed language will slowly change the language to where an accepted useage violates the rules anyway. * A clear language will mean that lawyers will have no choice but to write in lay terms. If the average person can understand a legal writing or a contract, then we won't hire lawyers as much as we do now. Because most politicians start out as lawyers... (you get the idea, I don't need *any* language to explain). /\ | Martin Rowe | / \ | Senior Technical Editor | /\ /\ | Test Measurement World | / \/ \/\ | voice 617-558-4426 |/\ /\ / \/ | fax 617-928-4426 | \/ \/ | e-mail m.r...@ieee.org | \ / | http://www.tmworld.com |\/ --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: modest proposal
This is really becoming a completely pointless discussion. Most of the people on this forum appear to be native English speakers. In my experience, native English speakers have absolutely no motivation or desire to learn any other language. Furthermore, a large percentage of the allegedly educated ones can barely handle their own grammar and spelling. Eg. in the sentence above, many would write they're own grammar ... AARGH!! On the other hand, those of us on this forum that are not native English speakers, seem to manage to convey our meaning quite nicely, thank you. English is already a bastard language; difficult enough to learn as it is. Let's not go out of the way to bastardize it even further with idiocies like enuf. Can we please stop this stupid thread? My time is valuable (if only to myself :-) Muriel: De vez em quando eu perdo a paciencia com esses babacas. Geralmente, este forum é bom, mas as vezes tem tanta boçalidade ... :-) Cheers, Egon :-) __ Egon H. Varju, PEng E.H. Varju Associates Ltd. North Vancouver, Canada Tel: 1 604 985 5710 HAVE MODEM Fax: 1 604 273 5815 WILL TRAVEL E-mail: e...@varju.bc.ca eva...@compuserve.com egon.va...@csa-international.org __ --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Re: modest proposal
I've heard efforts of a universal translator through Java being worked on as we speak. You'll be able to go to any website written in any language and see it in your default language. I only hope they fix the little language snafus that crop up. And perhaps the death of having to learn another language? Gosh, I hope not. - Doug Barry Ma wrote: Hi Lou, There must be some day in the future, the artificial intelligence has been so well developed that (1) An instant interpreting machine built-in to your PC would automatically transfer any language you input (either typed or voiced) to any languages the other party would like to have. (2) Learning foreign language is a very pleasant process and can be completed in very short period of time even when you are in sleep. ... :-) Best Regards, Barry Ma b...@anritsu.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: modest proposal
From: Barry Ma There must be some day in the future, the artificial intelligence has been so well developed that (1) An instant interpreting machine built-in to your PC . or brain. Remember, you need to meet class B limits though :-)) --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: modest proposal
Paul, I consider myself proficient in English, but I agree with you that those who throw Acronyms around without first typing them out are inconsiderate. There are quite a few Acronyms that have more than just one explanation. Tania Grant, tgr...@lucent.com mailto:tgr...@lucent.com Lucent Technologies, Communications Applications Group -- From: Paul Rampelbergh [SMTP:rampelberg...@swing.be] Sent: Monday, March 27, 2000 3:24 PM To: ieee pstc list Cc: Lou Gnecco Subject: Re: modest proposal Hi there, A little bit behind the subject, i take the opportunity to express my opinion in general on english and at the end a NEW proposal (maybe). I'm from belgium and as you certainly know we don't have our own language here. In my country we have FRENCH, FLEMISH and GERMAN. I speak/write only French, Flemish (equivalent to Dutch) and some English (it could be worse). This being said let me comment a few general problems encountered with english: - its unbelievable the long time it takes to express my opinions and put it down on paper. The same way, it takes a long time to find-out the real meaning of some sentences put forward by people who try to convince they know very well english subtleties. The use of commonly used words in simple expressions would be more efficient and helpful. - in the future i had some people who ridiculed my spelling and expressions, but that past time, thanks for your understanding There is now spell checking, it helps (a lot). - pithy enough, and i find things smoothly changing, english speaking people don't do enough effort to try to find-out what's the real meaning behind the sentences and words expressed. This happens often during meetings. Just misplace the accentuation point in a word and there it goes.. A little more interpretation effort to understand the objective of the text or at least ask for complementary information could be less frustrating when the author read the reply. - the last, and the worst. To understand english i have to have at least 2 big dictionaries of abbreviations generally used. OK EMC everybody knows but other ones... Some time ago i worked with the US airforce, how boy that's an adventure you never forget. I think it would be wise to have at least once in the original text a full expression (word) and then its abbreviated equivalent. Final modest proposal for a solution (maybe): I suggest to use hieroglyphics in stead of abbreviations, its more image speaking and universal for everybody but i'm afraid it will require an extra language on my computer. Hey Mr MicroSoft! Consider this not as a open criticisms but more as an expression of my findings during several years of traveling (-/+ 45 times to the us and 15 to canada). I enjoy to come to the states, a comfortable car and country music let's me feel like in holiday even if i'm not. Best regards to all of youPaul On Sun, 26 Mar 2000 20:53:40 -0500, you wrote: To all who replied: Thanks for the quick and hearty responses! SORRY LOU, it took me some time I certainly agree that the world does not need another artificial language like esperanto. Just realize, whe strugle here with frensh, english, german, dutch, spanish, italian, greeks, norsk, and more. Whe don't require an extra one. Some people are better at languages than others, though, and i have seen some very good engineers having to really struggle with ours. See above. Meanwhile, I have it on excellent authority that the Spanish Government is about to simplify the Spanish language, eliminating all the accent marks to make an easy, logical language even easier to learn and to use. Oh well, lets get back to work. Best Regards, Lou --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: modest proposal
This debate is moot. English is a good language for EMC and safety, for now. Until people adopt JAVA (or its variant, from Seattle) to communicate with each other because of its precision and unambiguity and logical constructs. And then you dont even have to learn a language; you can upload the language as it becomes available from online servers. You probably will still have to remember remnants of English to enjoy rock and roll. Cant imagine how you can make java (or its variant) rock and roll. Anil -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Paul Rampelbergh Sent: Monday, March 27, 2000 3:24 PM To: ieee pstc list Cc: Lou Gnecco Subject: Re: modest proposal Hi there, A little bit behind the subject, i take the opportunity to express my opinion in general on english and at the end a NEW proposal (maybe). I'm from belgium and as you certainly know we don't have our own language here. In my country we have FRENCH, FLEMISH and GERMAN. I speak/write only French, Flemish (equivalent to Dutch) and some English (it could be worse). This being said let me comment a few general problems encountered with english: - its unbelievable the long time it takes to express my opinions and put it down on paper. The same way, it takes a long time to find-out the real meaning of some sentences put forward by people who try to convince they know very well english subtleties. The use of commonly used words in simple expressions would be more efficient and helpful. - in the future i had some people who ridiculed my spelling and expressions, but that past time, thanks for your understanding There is now spell checking, it helps (a lot). - pithy enough, and i find things smoothly changing, english speaking people don't do enough effort to try to find-out what's the real meaning behind the sentences and words expressed. This happens often during meetings. Just misplace the accentuation point in a word and there it goes.. A little more interpretation effort to understand the objective of the text or at least ask for complementary information could be less frustrating when the author read the reply. - the last, and the worst. To understand english i have to have at least 2 big dictionaries of abbreviations generally used. OK EMC everybody knows but other ones... Some time ago i worked with the US airforce, how boy that's an adventure you never forget. I think it would be wise to have at least once in the original text a full expression (word) and then its abbreviated equivalent. Final modest proposal for a solution (maybe): I suggest to use hieroglyphics in stead of abbreviations, its more image speaking and universal for everybody but i'm afraid it will require an extra language on my computer. Hey Mr MicroSoft! Consider this not as a open criticisms but more as an expression of my findings during several years of traveling (-/+ 45 times to the us and 15 to canada). I enjoy to come to the states, a comfortable car and country music let's me feel like in holiday even if i'm not. Best regards to all of youPaul On Sun, 26 Mar 2000 20:53:40 -0500, you wrote: To all who replied: Thanks for the quick and hearty responses! SORRY LOU, it took me some time I certainly agree that the world does not need another artificial language like esperanto. Just realize, whe strugle here with frensh, english, german, dutch, spanish, italian, greeks, norsk, and more. Whe don't require an extra one. Some people are better at languages than others, though, and i have seen some very good engineers having to really struggle with ours. See above. Meanwhile, I have it on excellent authority that the Spanish Government is about to simplify the Spanish language, eliminating all the accent marks to make an easy, logical language even easier to learn and to use. Oh well, lets get back to work. Best Regards, Lou --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Re: modest proposal
Hi Lou, There must be some day in the future, the artificial intelligence has been so well developed that (1) An instant interpreting machine built-in to your PC would automatically transfer any language you input (either typed or voiced) to any languages the other party would like to have. (2) Learning foreign language is a very pleasant process and can be completed in very short period of time even when you are in sleep. ... :-) Best Regards, Barry Ma b...@anritsu.com For the largest MP3 index on the Web, go to http://mp3.altavista.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Re: modest proposal
I'll buy into this when all people who speak a common language get along with each other... -- From: Muriel Bittencourt de Liz mur...@grucad.ufsc.br To: EMC-PSTC List emc-p...@ieee.org Cc: Lou Gnecco l...@tempest-inc.com Subject: Re: modest proposal Date: Mon, Mar 27, 2000, 9:24 AM Snip: The original purpose of the esperanto language is to be a nation-free language. A language that someone learns because someone wants to talk with people from other nations, without any prejudice of race, language or faith. End snip. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Re: modest proposal
Hi there, A little bit behind the subject, i take the opportunity to express my opinion in general on english and at the end a NEW proposal (maybe). I'm from belgium and as you certainly know we don't have our own language here. In my country we have FRENCH, FLEMISH and GERMAN. I speak/write only French, Flemish (equivalent to Dutch) and some English (it could be worse). This being said let me comment a few general problems encountered with english: - its unbelievable the long time it takes to express my opinions and put it down on paper. The same way, it takes a long time to find-out the real meaning of some sentences put forward by people who try to convince they know very well english subtleties. The use of commonly used words in simple expressions would be more efficient and helpful. - in the future i had some people who ridiculed my spelling and expressions, but that past time, thanks for your understanding There is now spell checking, it helps (a lot). - pithy enough, and i find things smoothly changing, english speaking people don't do enough effort to try to find-out what's the real meaning behind the sentences and words expressed. This happens often during meetings. Just misplace the accentuation point in a word and there it goes.. A little more interpretation effort to understand the objective of the text or at least ask for complementary information could be less frustrating when the author read the reply. - the last, and the worst. To understand english i have to have at least 2 big dictionaries of abbreviations generally used. OK EMC everybody knows but other ones... Some time ago i worked with the US airforce, how boy that's an adventure you never forget. I think it would be wise to have at least once in the original text a full expression (word) and then its abbreviated equivalent. Final modest proposal for a solution (maybe): I suggest to use hieroglyphics in stead of abbreviations, its more image speaking and universal for everybody but i'm afraid it will require an extra language on my computer. Hey Mr MicroSoft! Consider this not as a open criticisms but more as an expression of my findings during several years of traveling (-/+ 45 times to the us and 15 to canada). I enjoy to come to the states, a comfortable car and country music let's me feel like in holiday even if i'm not. Best regards to all of youPaul On Sun, 26 Mar 2000 20:53:40 -0500, you wrote: To all who replied: Thanks for the quick and hearty responses! SORRY LOU, it took me some time I certainly agree that the world does not need another artificial language like esperanto. Just realize, whe strugle here with frensh, english, german, dutch, spanish, italian, greeks, norsk, and more. Whe don't require an extra one. Some people are better at languages than others, though, and i have seen some very good engineers having to really struggle with ours. See above. Meanwhile, I have it on excellent authority that the Spanish Government is about to simplify the Spanish language, eliminating all the accent marks to make an easy, logical language even easier to learn and to use. Oh well, lets get back to work. Best Regards, Lou --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: modest proposal
Muriel, As you are one who has studied Esperanto, I wonder if you would be kind enough to list the Esperanto equivalents of the following words in English: Freedom Liberty rightsprotesttyranny justice property privacy This is not simply curiosity, as I was unable to find these in any Internet Esperanto dictionary. I am very aware of the warning given by Eric Blair (writing as George Orwell) to be cautious about adopting any language which does not contain words for such concepts. Scott Lacey -Original Message- From: Muriel Bittencourt de Liz [SMTP:mur...@grucad.ufsc.br] Sent: Monday, March 27, 2000 12:25 PM To: EMC-PSTC List Cc: Lou Gnecco Subject:Re: modest proposal Group, I think this discussion of language is very important. Why? I'll speak for myself... During the last centuries/years, most of the third-world or developing countries (as you prefer) has adopted the idea of buying technologies instead of developing its own. Together with that, has come the imposing of the product's manufacturer language, that is the english, german, etc... As you can see, we don't use english because it is simple or easy to write/talk. We use it because most of the industrial world has adopted it as a universal language. Lou wrote: I certainly agree that the world does not need another artificial language like esperanto. I'm studying esperanto for some time, and I don't think esperanto is artificial at all! Esperanto was made to be easy for people from all nations. It's made of pieces from various languages (most radicals resemble latim language, the grammar is very similar to english, because of its simplicity). The original purpose of the esperanto language is to be a nation-free language. A language that someone learns because someone wants to talk with people from other nations, without any prejudice of race, language or faith. We are in entering the third millenium. I think it's time to begin thinking/acting different. Why couldn't we all talk a language that everybody has to learn, instead of only the non-english countries? It can be esperanto, universal language, etc... Well, all of these may seem only dreams from a brazilian engineer... but I think that's the way we create our world! Best Regards, Saudacoes, Salutojn! Muriel --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Re: modest proposal
Group, I think this discussion of language is very important. Why? I'll speak for myself... During the last centuries/years, most of the third-world or developing countries (as you prefer) has adopted the idea of buying technologies instead of developing its own. Together with that, has come the imposing of the product's manufacturer language, that is the english, german, etc... As you can see, we don't use english because it is simple or easy to write/talk. We use it because most of the industrial world has adopted it as a universal language. Lou wrote: I certainly agree that the world does not need another artificial language like esperanto. I'm studying esperanto for some time, and I don't think esperanto is artificial at all! Esperanto was made to be easy for people from all nations. It's made of pieces from various languages (most radicals resemble latim language, the grammar is very similar to english, because of its simplicity). The original purpose of the esperanto language is to be a nation-free language. A language that someone learns because someone wants to talk with people from other nations, without any prejudice of race, language or faith. We are in entering the third millenium. I think it's time to begin thinking/acting different. Why couldn't we all talk a language that everybody has to learn, instead of only the non-english countries? It can be esperanto, universal language, etc... Well, all of these may seem only dreams from a brazilian engineer... but I think that's the way we create our world! Best Regards, Saudações, Salutojn! Muriel --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: modest proposal
I had to throw this in here wink. This came from a friend of mine...the source I do not know. Remember, this is a joke :) Let's just make sure we don't all start speaking New-Speak a la 1984. The European Union commissioners have announced that agreement has been reached to adopt English as the preferred language for European communications, rather than German, which was the other possibility. As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a five year phase-in plan for what will be known as EuroEnglish. In the first year, s will be used instead of the soft c. Sertainly, sivil servants will reseive this news with joy. Also, the hard c will be replaced with k. Not only will this klear up konfusion, but typewriters kan have one less letter. There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the troublesome ph will be replaced by f. This will make words like fotograf 20 persent shorter. In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters, which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of the silent e in the languag is disgrasful, and it would go. By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing th by z and w by v. During ze fifz year, ze unesesary o kan be dropd from vords kontaining ou and similar chnages vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters. After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech ozer. Ze drem vil finali kum tru. -Original Message- From: Lou Gnecco [mailto:l...@tempest-inc.com] Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2000 20:54 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: modest proposal To all who replied: Thanks for the quick and hearty responses! I certainly agree that the world does not need another artificial language like esperanto. Some people are better at languages than others, though, and i have seen some very good engineers having to really struggle with ours. Meanwhile, I have it on excellent authority that the Spanish Government is about to simplify the Spanish language, eliminating all the accent marks to make an easy, logical language even easier to learn and to use. Oh well, lets get back to work. Best Regards, Lou --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Re: modest proposal
Hi all, that's the world we live in. Like it or not, English is the de-facto international language, especially in the technical/scientific community. I personally enjoy participating in this forum mostly for its invaluable technical contents but I also find it a very useful tool for improving my knowledge of the english language (mostly american English I should say). As a non-english participant, I personally prefer colloquial or informal English than the bureaucratic English used in the regulatory documents (CENELEC, IEC, FCC etc.). The spirit of this forum is to be an informal gathering of professionals open to discuss any EMC/Sfafety issue like they would do if they met personally. The only recommendation I would make - especially to the majority of US participants - is not to let too much slang into their language, if they honestly want to reach out to all international participants. It's not a question of oversimplifying the english language, just take care of using a little bit more of plain standard English than you would normally do when talking to your next-door buddies ! I think that would not impoverish the language and would just be more understandable to a wider international audience. As Lou pointed out, not everyone out there has the same proficiency in the english language so it's just a question of keeping it a little more standard if you want to maximize the EMC/Safety knowledge and experience that you can tap from this planet . Having said that, I personally enjoy extending my vocabulary and learning american slang, but that's another, more personal, point. Thanks to all Paolo Roncone Compuprint - Italy P.S. BTW (= By The Way) Scott, what's the meaning of Please include gotcha's to watch out for.. ? (taken from you post with subj: PCI Cards EMC Testing) --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
