[Emc-users] tool changers

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings all;

This particular carving project uses 3 different tools which must be 
changed 4 times per end of a board processed.

This has got me to thinking of a tool changer device since I am spending 
about 1/2 of my time changing tools & other preparatory stuffs.

At present, this thing has an R8 spindle, but I haven't tested to see if 
the spindle motor has the muscle to run the draw bolt if the wrench is 
held.  I'd assume so if the gear selection was in low.

However, putting it in low isn't easily done by hand.  That big knob on 
the side is big for a reason, which is to give us a good grip to shift 
it with. It is, IMO, needlessly difficult to switch gears. I'd assume it 
is easily replaced by a longer lever, which could then be swung by a 
smaller motor to effect the gear change.  This is the OEM spindle motor, 
rated at 1 HP when driven by the OEM SCR/Triac controller, but with 
Jon's PWM servo driver with about 110 volts of DC power, can be run 500 
revs faster than the OEM controller I took off could run it, and is full 
power reversible, running a G33.1 rigid tapping cycle very nicely. I 
write it to "peck" the bigger taps above #10 or 5mm of course.

So there is, for short duration efforts such as dropping the tool, or 
pulling the next one back in, likely more than enough torque to do that.  
Less torque needed there than in running the nut on the tormach ER-20 
adaptor with a big Crescent wrench which is what I am presently using 
while the spindle is pin locked by the brake I made.  Those are very 
nice, but run the cost per tool up about $50/tool so I only have one 
adaptor and 3 collets (sp?).

Does anyone have any experience with this?  Or am I just a beggar, 
wishing for a free horse, and designing my own saddle? 

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[andy pugh]

On 29 October 2015 at 15:28, Bruce Layne  wrote:
> I have all the parts to make the CNC controlled power drawbar for my
> mill, including a couple of large SMC air cylinders, a stack of
> Belleville washers to tension the drawbar when the air cylinders aren't
> pushing down on it, and a big pile of steel to build the beefy frame
> that mounts to the cast head of the milling machine... just as soon as I
> get a Round Tuit.

If you make your own cylinder it actually all gets a bit simpler.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/vertical-mill-lathe-project-log/109301-cnc.html
(There is a link at the bottom to a video of it in action)

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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Bruce Layne]

tormach ER-20 adaptor... Those are very
nice, but run the cost per tool up about
$50/tool so I only have one adapter and
3 collets


I suggest you search eBay for the TTS compatible collet holders from our 
Chinese communist capitalist friends.  I have a 50 position tool rack 
full of those, and I'm cheap, so they must not be anywhere close to $50 
each.  The quality is quite good.  There is no groove for an ATC, but 
that's not a big deal for me and it'd be an easy feature to add on a lathe.

I found them for you.  :-)  $16 each in quantities of ten on the slow 
boat.  Maybe less if you search longer than the minute I spent.

www.ebay.com/itm/161733955633



This has got me to thinking of a tool
changer device since I am spending
about 1/2 of my time changing tools
& other preparatory stuffs.


You probably already know this, but the poor man's power drawbar is an 
impact wrench to turn the drawbar.  There are pneumatic versions with 
air cylinders to push a small butterfly impact driver down as it spins, 
but I'm an electrical engineer so I like electrical solutions.  :-)

It's hard to beat the lightweight 12V Porter Cable cordless impact 
driver from Lowe's.  It reminds me of the Heywood Banks song about the 
Garden Weasel (search YouTube) - it's half the effort and twice as quick!

I have an old beat up Harbor Freight cordless impact wrench that a 
friend gave me to use to make a power draw bar.  I was going to wire it 
so it used full voltage for reverse and half voltage for forward, so it 
would tighten enough to hold the tool in the spindle, but would always 
be able to loosen anything it tightened.  Sort of like those tanks that 
have the highest gears in reverse so they could get out of a bad 
situation faster than they got into it.

I have all the parts to make the CNC controlled power drawbar for my 
mill, including a couple of large SMC air cylinders, a stack of 
Belleville washers to tension the drawbar when the air cylinders aren't 
pushing down on it, and a big pile of steel to build the beefy frame 
that mounts to the cast head of the milling machine... just as soon as I 
get a Round Tuit.

Good luck with your woodworking and have fun!





On 10/29/2015 10:22 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Greetings all;
>
> This particular carving project uses 3 different tools which must be
> changed 4 times per end of a board processed.
>
> This has got me to thinking of a tool changer device since I am spending
> about 1/2 of my time changing tools & other preparatory stuffs.
>
> At present, this thing has an R8 spindle, but I haven't tested to see if
> the spindle motor has the muscle to run the draw bolt if the wrench is
> held.  I'd assume so if the gear selection was in low.
>
> However, putting it in low isn't easily done by hand.  That big knob on
> the side is big for a reason, which is to give us a good grip to shift
> it with. It is, IMO, needlessly difficult to switch gears. I'd assume it
> is easily replaced by a longer lever, which could then be swung by a
> smaller motor to effect the gear change.  This is the OEM spindle motor,
> rated at 1 HP when driven by the OEM SCR/Triac controller, but with
> Jon's PWM servo driver with about 110 volts of DC power, can be run 500
> revs faster than the OEM controller I took off could run it, and is full
> power reversible, running a G33.1 rigid tapping cycle very nicely. I
> write it to "peck" the bigger taps above #10 or 5mm of course.
>
> So there is, for short duration efforts such as dropping the tool, or
> pulling the next one back in, likely more than enough torque to do that.
> Less torque needed there than in running the nut on the tormach ER-20
> adaptor with a big Crescent wrench which is what I am presently using
> while the spindle is pin locked by the brake I made.  Those are very
> nice, but run the cost per tool up about $50/tool so I only have one
> adaptor and 3 collets (sp?).
>
> Does anyone have any experience with this?  Or am I just a beggar,
> wishing for a free horse, and designing my own saddle?
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


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Re: [Emc-users] machine motion

[Dave Caroline]

I have seen this on my machine which still has 2.4 on, it is on a
machine with not enough ram. I make sure unwanted background stuff is
not running to avoid it.

Dave

On 29/10/2015, Stuart Stevenson  wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>   re: the cinci at MPM
> When they push the arrow key to move an axis the machine keeps moving. A
> couple weeks ago the X axis was the only one doing this but now other axes
> demonstrate this feature.
> They disconnect the keyboard, use the mouse to move the axes with using the
> +/- buttons and get the same result.
> What should the next focus be to troubleshoot this?
>
> Ubuntu 8.04
> LinuxCNC 2.4.?
> Axis Display
>
> I know, I know - it needs upgraded. Not possible at this time.
>
> thanks
> Stuart
>
> --
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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Jonathan Blissett]

You can ask the seller to put the groove in the toolholders - I did and it
was still cheap. I've used them to convert an X3 mill. Some pictures and a
video here:

http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/7656-X3-mill-with-rails-ATC-new-motor

On 29 October 2015 at 16:49, John Kasunich  wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Oct 29, 2015, at 11:28 AM, Bruce Layne wrote:
> > tormach ER-20 adaptor... Those are very
> > nice, but run the cost per tool up about
> > $50/tool so I only have one adapter and
> > 3 collets
> >
> >
> > I suggest you search eBay for the TTS compatible collet holders from our
> > Chinese communist capitalist friends.  I have a 50 position tool rack
> > full of those, and I'm cheap, so they must not be anywhere close to $50
> > each.  The quality is quite good.  There is no groove for an ATC, but
> > that's not a big deal for me and it'd be an easy feature to add on a
> lathe.
> >
> > I found them for you.  :-)  $16 each in quantities of ten on the slow
> > boat.  Maybe less if you search longer than the minute I spent.
> >
> > www.ebay.com/itm/161733955633
>
> I bought ten of these.  They arrived faster than expected, and the
> quality seems very good.  One nuisance was that DHL wanted a
> signature, but I was able to leave a signed note on the door.
> I did quite a bit more than a minute of searching, this seems to be
> the best supplier.
>
> --
>   John Kasunich
>   jmkasun...@fastmail.fm
>
>
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[Emc-users] backlash compensation

[Tom Easterday]

I have 0.0005” of backlash in my Y axis.  I added a parameter to the Y-axis 
section of my .ini file: BACKLASH = 0.0005 (also tried 0.001).  I also 
increased my STEPGEN_MAXVEL to 25% more than my MAXVEL, and STEPGEN_MAXACCEL to 
100% more than my MAXACCEL.  This doesn’t seem to have any affect on backlash 
when I am jogging or issuing G1’s in MDI window.  Should it?
-Tom



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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[John Kasunich]

On Thu, Oct 29, 2015, at 11:28 AM, Bruce Layne wrote:
> tormach ER-20 adaptor... Those are very
> nice, but run the cost per tool up about
> $50/tool so I only have one adapter and
> 3 collets
> 
> 
> I suggest you search eBay for the TTS compatible collet holders from our 
> Chinese communist capitalist friends.  I have a 50 position tool rack 
> full of those, and I'm cheap, so they must not be anywhere close to $50 
> each.  The quality is quite good.  There is no groove for an ATC, but 
> that's not a big deal for me and it'd be an easy feature to add on a lathe.
> 
> I found them for you.  :-)  $16 each in quantities of ten on the slow 
> boat.  Maybe less if you search longer than the minute I spent.
> 
> www.ebay.com/itm/161733955633

I bought ten of these.  They arrived faster than expected, and the 
quality seems very good.  One nuisance was that DHL wanted a
signature, but I was able to leave a signed note on the door.
I did quite a bit more than a minute of searching, this seems to be
the best supplier.

-- 
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  jmkasun...@fastmail.fm

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[Emc-users] machine motion

[Stuart Stevenson]

Gentlemen,
  re: the cinci at MPM
When they push the arrow key to move an axis the machine keeps moving. A
couple weeks ago the X axis was the only one doing this but now other axes
demonstrate this feature.
They disconnect the keyboard, use the mouse to move the axes with using the
+/- buttons and get the same result.
What should the next focus be to troubleshoot this?

Ubuntu 8.04
LinuxCNC 2.4.?
Axis Display

I know, I know - it needs upgraded. Not possible at this time.

thanks
Stuart

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Re: [Emc-users] machine motion

[sam sokolik]

or a failing disk...

On 10/29/2015 2:07 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 29 October 2015 at 18:53, Stuart Stevenson  wrote:
>
>> Shannon at MPM will change the ram on the machine. He said it has been
>> acting SLOW and strange lately.
> My recent experience with Linux is that it copes really inelegantly to
> a full disk, so it might be worth checking disk space.
>


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Re: [Emc-users] machine motion

[Stuart Stevenson]

On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 1:23 PM, Sebastian Kuzminsky 
wrote:

> On 10/29/2015 11:48 AM, Stuart Stevenson wrote:
> > Gentlemen,
> >   re: the cinci at MPM
> > When they push the arrow key to move an axis the machine keeps moving. A
> > couple weeks ago the X axis was the only one doing this but now other
> axes
> > demonstrate this feature.
> > They disconnect the keyboard, use the mouse to move the axes with using
> the
> > +/- buttons and get the same result.
> > What should the next focus be to troubleshoot this?
> >
> > Ubuntu 8.04
> > LinuxCNC 2.4.?
> > Axis Display
>
> You say: after you release the key, the machine keeps moving.  Does it
> stop moving a second or two later?
>
I am told it does not stop until the end of travel


>
> Both of those jogging mechanisms (keyboard and GUI-button) are of the
> non-realtime "UI to Task to Motion" variety.  The non-realtime parts of
> that chain (GUI & Task) can have unpredictable timing, resulting in
> delayed commands getting to Motion, resulting in jogs that go on for a
> short while after the key is released.
>
> As Dave Caroline said, one option is to lighten the load on the system
> so that more resources are available for Axis and Task.  You can run
> "vmstat 1" in a terminal to see if the machine is swapping or paging,
> which would suggest adding RAM or killing background processes.
>
> The best option is to jog with a hardware jog-wheel connected directly
> to Motion via HAL.  That bypasses the problematic non-realtime stuff
> entirely.
>
> Unfortunately Motion does not have continuous-jog inputs (which is what
> the keyboard and the GUI + and - buttons do), but i bet it wouldn't be
> hard to add (he said, not having looked at the code).
>
Shannon at MPM will change the ram on the machine. He said it has been
acting SLOW and strange lately. When I mentioned Dave's comment Shannon
agreed instantly that could be the problem.
We will see.
thanks guys for the quick help and insight
Stuart



>
>
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>
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Re: [Emc-users] machine motion

[Stuart Stevenson]

Ok,

new information

new ram installed
new ppmc boards
no change in machine motion on the Y axis - the other axes run fine (they
might have been fine before and it may have been my misunderstanding).
once y motion has been started the axis moves until - A. estop  B. motion
change by pressing the opposite motion button C. sometimes the axis will
stop on the motion direction change but most of the time it will just
change direction and continue the motion in the opposite direction.

I told him to type df -h in a terminal to check the hard drive

thanks
Stuart


On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 2:15 PM, sam sokolik  wrote:

> or a failing disk...
>
> On 10/29/2015 2:07 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> > On 29 October 2015 at 18:53, Stuart Stevenson  wrote:
> >
> >> Shannon at MPM will change the ram on the machine. He said it has been
> >> acting SLOW and strange lately.
> > My recent experience with Linux is that it copes really inelegantly to
> > a full disk, so it might be worth checking disk space.
> >
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] machine motion

[Sebastian Kuzminsky]

On 10/29/2015 11:48 AM, Stuart Stevenson wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>   re: the cinci at MPM
> When they push the arrow key to move an axis the machine keeps moving. A
> couple weeks ago the X axis was the only one doing this but now other axes
> demonstrate this feature.
> They disconnect the keyboard, use the mouse to move the axes with using the
> +/- buttons and get the same result.
> What should the next focus be to troubleshoot this?
> 
> Ubuntu 8.04
> LinuxCNC 2.4.?
> Axis Display

You say: after you release the key, the machine keeps moving.  Does it
stop moving a second or two later?

Both of those jogging mechanisms (keyboard and GUI-button) are of the
non-realtime "UI to Task to Motion" variety.  The non-realtime parts of
that chain (GUI & Task) can have unpredictable timing, resulting in
delayed commands getting to Motion, resulting in jogs that go on for a
short while after the key is released.

As Dave Caroline said, one option is to lighten the load on the system
so that more resources are available for Axis and Task.  You can run
"vmstat 1" in a terminal to see if the machine is swapping or paging,
which would suggest adding RAM or killing background processes.

The best option is to jog with a hardware jog-wheel connected directly
to Motion via HAL.  That bypasses the problematic non-realtime stuff
entirely.

Unfortunately Motion does not have continuous-jog inputs (which is what
the keyboard and the GUI + and - buttons do), but i bet it wouldn't be
hard to add (he said, not having looked at the code).


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Re: [Emc-users] machine motion

[andy pugh]

On 29 October 2015 at 18:53, Stuart Stevenson  wrote:

> Shannon at MPM will change the ram on the machine. He said it has been
> acting SLOW and strange lately.

My recent experience with Linux is that it copes really inelegantly to
a full disk, so it might be worth checking disk space.

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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Bruce Layne]

Gene:  The point I may have understated in my previous post is that I 
think getting a few more ER20 TTS compatible collet holders will be your 
biggest bang for the buck.  When you only have one, you are missing the 
two big advantages of the TTS system - quick tool changes and repeatable 
Z heights.  If you need to disassemble the ER20 collet holder, pull out 
the collet, change the tool and reassemble, you have very slow tool 
changes and you need to reset the Z height each time.  When that's the 
case (what a hassle!), it matters little whether you loosen the drawbar 
with a wrench, an impact wrench or a pneumatically actuated power 
drawbar.  Compared to mucking around with a single ER20 collet holder, 
the drawbar is by far the easiest part of that overall problem.  ER20 
TTS collet holders are like divorces - they cost a lot... because 
they're worth it!



On 10/29/2015 11:42 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> If you make your own cylinder it actually all gets a bit simpler. 
> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/vertical-mill-lathe-project-log/109301-cnc.html 
> (There is a link at the bottom to a video of it in action) 

Considering that I spend 99% of my time online, reading about CNC 
conversions and watching machining videos, and only about 1% of my time 
in the shop, it's a true tragedy that I didn't encounter your solution 
to my power drawbar problem sooner.  I'm a do-it-myself kinda guy, 
usually to a self destructive degree, so I naturally thought about 
making a custom air cylinder.  Sanity prevailed and I figured SMC has 
forgotten a hundred times more than I'll ever know about making an air 
cylinder, but I didn't take the concept far enough.  The project makes a 
lot of sense when the air cylinder part of the overall integrated 
drawbar mechanism.  Very nicely done, sir!  I'll try to keep that 
concept in my old brain in case I ever need to do this type of project 
again.

I saw where 3D printers can now print a flexible rubbery material. I 
need to 3D print a rubber bracelet with an embossed "WWAPD?" (What Would 
Andy Pugh Do?) as a reminder to check first before I start any shop project.



On 10/29/2015 01:18 PM, Jonathan Blissett wrote:
> You can ask the seller to put the groove in the toolholders - I did and it
> was still cheap. I've used them to convert an X3 mill. Some pictures and a
> video here:
>
> http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/7656-X3-mill-with-rails-ATC-new-motor

That's a very impressive X3 conversion.  A 16 position ATC?!?  Wow! I 
think you'll know you've finished that CNC conversion when you realize 
there is not a single piece of the X3 remaining!

Your signature line:
   Old router build log here 
.
 
New router build log here 
.
 
Lathe build log here 
.
   Electric motorbike project here 
.

You may be my long lost twin.  I built a 2'X4' CNC router but have a 
2'X2' CNC router to build.  It's a big pile of parts in my shop.  I also 
have a CNC mill conversion and a CNC lathe conversion (even though I 
already build a CNC mini lathe from a little Sherline lathe that's 
surprisingly capable for the small stuff).  I haven't touched my CNC 
projects all summer but I'm about to get back to them.  I just spent the 
last couple of days imagineering an electric bike, but mine is a 2WD 2KW 
electric bicycle, unlike your fabulous 50KW electric motorcycle.


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Re: [Emc-users] machine motion

[John Kasunich]

My understanding of keyboard jogs is that a "key pressed" event for the up-arrow
stops any active Y axis jog, and then starts a +Y jog.  A "key released" event 
for 
the up-arrow stops any active Y axis jog.  Likewise for the down-arrow.

It sounds like LinuxCNC isn't seeing the "key released" events.

Does hitting the escape key stop one of these "runaway jogs"?  The escape
key is supposed to generate an "ABORT" command to motion, which should
stop the movement.  Whether or not that happens might be a clue.





On Thu, Oct 29, 2015, at 03:41 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote:
> Ok,
> 
> new information
> 
> new ram installed
> new ppmc boards
> no change in machine motion on the Y axis - the other axes run fine (they
> might have been fine before and it may have been my misunderstanding).
> once y motion has been started the axis moves until - A. estop  B. motion
> change by pressing the opposite motion button C. sometimes the axis will
> stop on the motion direction change but most of the time it will just
> change direction and continue the motion in the opposite direction.
> 
> I told him to type df -h in a terminal to check the hard drive
> 
> thanks
> Stuart
> 
> 
> On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 2:15 PM, sam sokolik  wrote:
> 
> > or a failing disk...
> >
> > On 10/29/2015 2:07 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> > > On 29 October 2015 at 18:53, Stuart Stevenson  wrote:
> > >
> > >> Shannon at MPM will change the ram on the machine. He said it has been
> > >> acting SLOW and strange lately.
> > > My recent experience with Linux is that it copes really inelegantly to
> > > a full disk, so it might be worth checking disk space.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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> >
> 
> 
> 
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[Emc-users] Subject: Re: tool changers

[richshoop]

Worked at a shop that had a Lagun vertical mill with one of those pneumatic 
cylinder/air impact type power tool changer things on it. Wore out the impact 
sockets! Didn't matter what brand tried. Proto impact series, Williams, SnapOn, 
Armstrong, etc. Finally figured it out, the socket HAS to be fully seated 
before the impact sequence is started. Oddly, the hex on the draw bar never did 
wear! 

- Original Message -

From: emc-users-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net 
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net 
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2015 10:40:13 AM 
Subject: Emc-users Digest, Vol 114, Issue 56 

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Today's Topics: 

1. Re: Error in Documentation (John Thornton) 
2. Re: cutter offset misunderstanding (lloyd wilson) 
3. tool changers (Gene Heskett) 
4. Re: tool changers (Bruce Layne) 
5. Re: tool changers (andy pugh) 
6. Re: tool changers (John Kasunich) 
7. Re: tool changers (Jonathan Blissett) 


-- 

Message: 1 
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 09:44:40 -0500 
From: John Thornton  
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Error in Documentation 
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
 
Message-ID: <5630df58.4040...@gnipsel.com> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed 

Thanks for reporting this. 

JT 

On 10/27/2015 10:40 PM, Todd Zuercher wrote: 
> I've noticed a minor error in the documentation. 
> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/hal/parallel_port.html#_pins 
> I see that it says that the control pins (1,14,16,17) are outputs in all 
> modes. That isn't really true, in x-mode they are inputs. 
> 




-- 

Message: 2 
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 15:10:00 -0400 
From: lloyd wilson  
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] cutter offset misunderstanding 
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
 
Message-ID: <56311d88.4070...@rochester.rr.com> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed 

an update: I got the program to load properly by using longer lead-in 
motions - under some circumstances the compensation function seems to 
report a misleading error. 

thanks to all who looked at the issue. 

ldw 
On 10/28/2015 08:59 AM, lloyd wilson wrote: 
> Version is 2.8-pre (download early last month), running the Axis 
> simulator. 
> Selected tool (#1) is specified as .260" diameter in the tool table. 
> When I specify G41.1 D0.260, the program accepts the entry. 
> Complete program attached. 
> 
> On 10/28/2015 08:30 AM, Jeff Epler wrote: 
>> Can you please say what version of LinuxCNC you are running, and provide 
>> a complete program which illustrates the problem, rather than just a 
>> snippet? Please also use G41.1 D- instead of G41 so that the program 
>> does not depend on the details of your tool table, or provide the 
>> relevant tool table line. 
>> 
>> I converted your example into a complete ngc program and ran it on our 
>> current development version ("2.8.0-pre"), though I expect our current 
>> stable version (2.7.1) to behave the same. Unfortunately, I failed to 
>> reproduce the problem you report. 
>> 
>> Here's my program, which draws the portion of your path offset by 0, 5, 
>> 10, 20 and 50mm: 
>> 
>> G21 G40 G90.1 ; note, I assumed this part program is in mm 
>> F1000 
>> 
>> O sub 
>> G41.1 D[#1] 
>> G0X0.Y24.8610 
>> G0Z-17. 
>> M3 
>> G1X7.5850Y21.5360Z-19. 
>> G1X12.9820Z-19. 
>> G1X24.4020Y11.5920Z-19. 
>> G2X25.8100Y8.5000Z-19.I21.7100J8.5000 
>> G40 
>> O endsub 
>> 
>> O call [0] 
>> O call [5] 
>> O call [10] 
>> O call [20] 
>> O call [50] 
>> M2 
>> 
>> All 5 paths show in the preview plot and run successfully using the 
>> sample configuration sim/axis/axis.ini. 
>> 
>> Jeff 
>> 
>> --
>>  
>> 
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>> 
> 
> 
> 
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Message: 3 
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 10:22:12 -0400 
From: Gene Heskett  
Subject: [Emc-users] tool 

Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[andy pugh]

On 30 October 2015 at 00:09, rayj  wrote:

> That's what I was thinking, but some MT3 adapters are just rammed in
> place or tapped lightly with a hammer and function adequately.  I was
> wondering if the vacuum was applied and the adapter was brought into
> place so that the vacuum "snapped" it into position if that would be
> enough force to seat is securely.

For drilling, I imagine so, for the reasons you state. I would expect
it to pull out for milling. I have seen a single MT shank milling
cutter without a drawbar, but only one.

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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[rayj]

Greetings,

My little 3 in 1 machine has a hollow quill for using a draw bar to pull 
the MT 3 mail holder into place.  I was wondering if anyone had used 
vacuum to snap the holder into place, and if it is likely to be tight 
enough for a little light milling.

Just kind of wondering out loud. If it's been tried and failed, I won't 
have to wonder any more! :>)

TIA

Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN

The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, 
understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. 
And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, 
egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men 
admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. 
-John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968)

On 10/29/2015 03:14 PM, Bruce Layne wrote:
> Gene:  The point I may have understated in my previous post is that I
> think getting a few more ER20 TTS compatible collet holders will be your
> biggest bang for the buck.  When you only have one, you are missing the
> two big advantages of the TTS system - quick tool changes and repeatable
> Z heights.  If you need to disassemble the ER20 collet holder, pull out
> the collet, change the tool and reassemble, you have very slow tool
> changes and you need to reset the Z height each time.  When that's the
> case (what a hassle!), it matters little whether you loosen the drawbar
> with a wrench, an impact wrench or a pneumatically actuated power
> drawbar.  Compared to mucking around with a single ER20 collet holder,
> the drawbar is by far the easiest part of that overall problem.  ER20
> TTS collet holders are like divorces - they cost a lot... because
> they're worth it!
>
>
>
> On 10/29/2015 11:42 AM, andy pugh wrote:
>> If you make your own cylinder it actually all gets a bit simpler.
>> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/vertical-mill-lathe-project-log/109301-cnc.html
>> (There is a link at the bottom to a video of it in action)
>
> Considering that I spend 99% of my time online, reading about CNC
> conversions and watching machining videos, and only about 1% of my time
> in the shop, it's a true tragedy that I didn't encounter your solution
> to my power drawbar problem sooner.  I'm a do-it-myself kinda guy,
> usually to a self destructive degree, so I naturally thought about
> making a custom air cylinder.  Sanity prevailed and I figured SMC has
> forgotten a hundred times more than I'll ever know about making an air
> cylinder, but I didn't take the concept far enough.  The project makes a
> lot of sense when the air cylinder part of the overall integrated
> drawbar mechanism.  Very nicely done, sir!  I'll try to keep that
> concept in my old brain in case I ever need to do this type of project
> again.
>
> I saw where 3D printers can now print a flexible rubbery material. I
> need to 3D print a rubber bracelet with an embossed "WWAPD?" (What Would
> Andy Pugh Do?) as a reminder to check first before I start any shop project.
>
>
>
> On 10/29/2015 01:18 PM, Jonathan Blissett wrote:
>> You can ask the seller to put the groove in the toolholders - I did and it
>> was still cheap. I've used them to convert an X3 mill. Some pictures and a
>> video here:
>>
>> http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/7656-X3-mill-with-rails-ATC-new-motor
>
> That's a very impressive X3 conversion.  A 16 position ATC?!?  Wow! I
> think you'll know you've finished that CNC conversion when you realize
> there is not a single piece of the X3 remaining!
>
> Your signature line:
> Old router build log here
> .
> New router build log here
> .
> Lathe build log here
> .
> Electric motorbike project here
> .
>
> You may be my long lost twin.  I built a 2'X4' CNC router but have a
> 2'X2' CNC router to build.  It's a big pile of parts in my shop.  I also
> have a CNC mill conversion and a CNC lathe conversion (even though I
> already build a CNC mini lathe from a little Sherline lathe that's
> surprisingly capable for the small stuff).  I haven't touched my CNC
> projects all summer but I'm about to get back to them.  I just spent the
> last couple of days imagineering an electric bike, but mine is a 2WD 2KW
> electric bicycle, unlike your fabulous 50KW electric motorcycle.
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[andy pugh]

On 29 October 2015 at 23:20, rayj  wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone had used
> vacuum to snap the holder into place, and if it is likely to be tight
> enough for a little light milling.

14.5 psi on an area of 0.88 square inches.
12.75 lbf. I don't think that would be enough. Typical drawbar pulls
are about 100x higher.


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http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[rayj]

Thanks for the reply.

That's what I was thinking, but some MT3 adapters are just rammed in 
place or tapped lightly with a hammer and function adequately.  I was 
wondering if the vacuum was applied and the adapter was brought into 
place so that the vacuum "snapped" it into position if that would be 
enough force to seat is securely.

Like I said, just wondering out loud.

Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN

The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, 
understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. 
And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, 
egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men 
admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. 
-John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968)

On 10/29/2015 06:27 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 29 October 2015 at 23:20, rayj  wrote:
>> I was wondering if anyone had used
>> vacuum to snap the holder into place, and if it is likely to be tight
>> enough for a little light milling.
>
> 14.5 psi on an area of 0.88 square inches.
> 12.75 lbf. I don't think that would be enough. Typical drawbar pulls
> are about 100x higher.
>
>

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Re: [Emc-users] machine motion

[Jon Elson]

On 10/29/2015 01:53 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote:
> Shannon at MPM will change the ram on the machine. He said it has been
> acting SLOW and strange lately. When I mentioned Dave's comment Shannon
> agreed instantly that could be the problem.
>
Hmmm, has the computer been rebooted?  It could just have 
some semi-crashed service burning CPU time.
That could make the GUI real laggy.  Like VMS (a DEC OS) 
Linux will try to run with a failed hard drive, just running 
off what is in the disk cache (which is all of the unused 
memory).  Slowly, normal utilities will hang, and the system 
will get more and more stuck processes until you can't do 
anything.  When you try to reboot, it will either clear the 
fault or not boot.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Jon Elson]

On 10/29/2015 07:09 PM, rayj wrote:
> Thanks for the reply.
>
> That's what I was thinking, but some MT3 adapters are just rammed in
> place or tapped lightly with a hammer and function adequately.
MT3 is a "self holding taper".  So, if a clean, burr-free 
holder is driven into a clean, burr-free socket, it should 
resist normal machining forces with NO drawbar, vacuum or 
other tricks.  I doubt vacuum could provide the kind of 
impulse that was normally used to drive tools into the spindle.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] machine motion

[Jon Elson]

On 10/29/2015 12:48 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>re: the cinci at MPM
> When they push the arrow key to move an axis the machine keeps moving. A
> couple weeks ago the X axis was the only one doing this but now other axes
> demonstrate this feature.
> They disconnect the keyboard, use the mouse to move the axes with using the
> +/- buttons and get the same result.
> What should the next focus be to troubleshoot this?
>
> Ubuntu 8.04
> LinuxCNC 2.4.?
> Axis Display
>
> I know, I know - it needs upgraded. Not possible at this time.
>
>
OK, I had something like this, and just dealt with it for a 
while. then, the keyboard totally quit.  I found out I had a 
crummy DIN to mini-DIN adapter that had a bunch of broken 
wires inside.  (Yes, that's how old some of this stuff I use 
is, 5-pin DIN keyboards. But, i have a water/chip proof 
cover on that keyboard, so I keep using it.)

I have not had the sticking key problem since repairing the 
adapter.  What is happening is the computer is sometimes 
failing to receive the "key up" message, so it doesn't know 
the key has been released.

If you are sure the on-screen jog buttons do the same, then 
that is sure a new one on me.I've never seen that.
Be aware if you unplug the keyboard in the middle of a jog, 
you WILL get the stuck jog condition for sure.

First, I'd fire up Halscope and make sure the servos are not 
doing something abnormal.  If the pid.n.error trace seems to 
be normal (ie. the servos are truly following the commanded 
position) then I'd see about replacing the whole computer 
with another one running the same version.  Just put it on a 
table to find out WHAT part of the system is doing the 
misbehavior.  Are these keyboards and mice USB or PS/2?  If 
you have a choice, try the other kind, just to see if it 
behaves different.

Also, try doing keyboard and mouse stuff NOT in LinuxCNC to 
see if you can get any misbehavior to appear there, too.

The stuck jog key effect is EASY for me to believe, as I 
have experienced it here, too.  The other is not something I 
have seen, and it seems a little harder to understand.  My 
knowledge of mouse protocols is they do NOT send key up/key 
down messages, but have a bit in the format that says the 
button is down.  So, it seems harder for that to get the 
button stuck down condition.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Gregg Eshelman]

On 10/29/2015 8:22 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:

> So there is, for short duration efforts such as dropping the tool, or
> pulling the next one back in, likely more than enough torque to do that.
> Less torque needed there than in running the nut on the tormach ER-20
> adaptor with a big Crescent wrench

How about switching to the Tormach R8 quick change collet and holders? 
They have standard holders for manual changes and ones with a groove for 
auto changers.

Many people have adapted 3/8" butterfly impact wrenches to mills for 
power drawbar conversions. I assume they don't run a lot of air pressure.

If I ever get my ProLight 2000 into regular use I'll get the Tormach R8 
stuff for it.


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Re: [Emc-users] machine motion

[Jon Elson]

On 10/29/2015 02:41 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote:
> Ok,
>
> new information
>
> new ram installed
> new ppmc boards
> no change in machine motion on the Y axis - the other axes run fine (they
> might have been fine before and it may have been my misunderstanding).
> once y motion has been started the axis moves until - A. estop  B. motion
> change by pressing the opposite motion button C. sometimes the axis will
> stop on the motion direction change but most of the time it will just
> change direction and continue the motion in the opposite direction.
>
>
OK, this is different, and I really suggest checking the Y 
axis with Halscope, looking at :
ppmc.0.encoder.01.velocity (hmmm, maybe on your older 
LinuxCNC version, there will only be delta)
pid.1.error

And see what it is doing when it runs away.  I'm guessing 
that it is either the encoder channel is doing something 
odd, like not reporting movement, or the DAC is getting left 
with a non-zero velocity when the jog command ends.
If anything strange is found, run the ppmc diags program in 
the commtest mode.  Also run the dactest mode
(If you have a very old version of the diags it won't have 
this, I can send a newer version)  this tests reliability of 
communication to the DAC board.  Possibly the parallel port 
or the IEEE-1284 cable may have a problem.

If the encoder and encoder board are working correctly, and 
the MIN_FERROR is set to something reasonable, then a servo 
divergence like this should be impossible.

Boy, this is sure a weird one, wish I was there to have a look!

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 29 October 2015 11:28:30 Bruce Layne wrote:

> tormach ER-20 adaptor... Those are very
> nice, but run the cost per tool up about
> $50/tool so I only have one adapter and
> 3 collets
>
>
> I suggest you search eBay for the TTS compatible collet holders from
> our Chinese communist capitalist friends.  I have a 50 position tool
> rack full of those, and I'm cheap, so they must not be anywhere close
> to $50 each.  The quality is quite good.  There is no groove for an
> ATC, but that's not a big deal for me and it'd be an easy feature to
> add on a lathe.
>
> I found them for you.  :-)  $16 each in quantities of ten on the slow
> boat.  Maybe less if you search longer than the minute I spent.
>
> www.ebay.com/itm/161733955633

Nice, and the price is quite decent, but shipping at $60 is apparently 
his profit margin. If you listen carefully you can hear the gears going 
around in my card case. And the dice rolling in the background. :)  Now 
to find some ER-20 collets at a decent price.

Anything in the under $30/kit range is from 1065 steel, and could be done 
better in a harder alloy.  I think I would probably be better off buying 
3 more of the 3 packs from LMS, so I would have the ability to hold more 
than one 1/4" tool at a time.  Using 'Merican tools, I don't often need 
a metric collet anyway.

But then I'd need to design a soft bottomed catcher bucket since its 
virtually impossible to loosen the drawbar bolt, and catch the er-20 
adapter as it freely falls out. I have had it drop, point first, 
damaging both the point and the workpiece, 3 times now.

I did find some 1/4" stop collars, so I at least have a consistent 
stickout for as long as the tool lasts.

>
> This has got me to thinking of a tool
> changer device since I am spending
> about 1/2 of my time changing tools
> & other preparatory stuffs.
>
>
> You probably already know this, but the poor man's power drawbar is an
> impact wrench to turn the drawbar.  There are pneumatic versions with
> air cylinders to push a small butterfly impact driver down as it
> spins, but I'm an electrical engineer so I like electrical solutions. 
> :-)
>
> It's hard to beat the lightweight 12V Porter Cable cordless impact
> driver from Lowe's.  It reminds me of the Heywood Banks song about the
> Garden Weasel (search YouTube) - it's half the effort and twice as
> quick!
>
> I have an old beat up Harbor Freight cordless impact wrench that a
> friend gave me to use to make a power draw bar.  I was going to wire
> it so it used full voltage for reverse and half voltage for forward,
> so it would tighten enough to hold the tool in the spindle, but would
> always be able to loosen anything it tightened.  Sort of like those
> tanks that have the highest gears in reverse so they could get out of
> a bad situation faster than they got into it.
>
> I have all the parts to make the CNC controlled power drawbar for my
> mill, including a couple of large SMC air cylinders, a stack of
> Belleville washers to tension the drawbar when the air cylinders
> aren't pushing down on it, and a big pile of steel to build the beefy
> frame that mounts to the cast head of the milling machine... just as
> soon as I get a Round Tuit.
>
> Good luck with your woodworking and have fun!
>
> On 10/29/2015 10:22 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Greetings all;
> >
> > This particular carving project uses 3 different tools which must be
> > changed 4 times per end of a board processed.
> >
> > This has got me to thinking of a tool changer device since I am
> > spending about 1/2 of my time changing tools & other preparatory
> > stuffs.
> >
> > At present, this thing has an R8 spindle, but I haven't tested to
> > see if the spindle motor has the muscle to run the draw bolt if the
> > wrench is held.  I'd assume so if the gear selection was in low.
> >
> > However, putting it in low isn't easily done by hand.  That big knob
> > on the side is big for a reason, which is to give us a good grip to
> > shift it with. It is, IMO, needlessly difficult to switch gears. I'd
> > assume it is easily replaced by a longer lever, which could then be
> > swung by a smaller motor to effect the gear change.  This is the OEM
> > spindle motor, rated at 1 HP when driven by the OEM SCR/Triac
> > controller, but with Jon's PWM servo driver with about 110 volts of
> > DC power, can be run 500 revs faster than the OEM controller I took
> > off could run it, and is full power reversible, running a G33.1
> > rigid tapping cycle very nicely. I write it to "peck" the bigger
> > taps above #10 or 5mm of course.
> >
> > So there is, for short duration efforts such as dropping the tool,
> > or pulling the next one back in, likely more than enough torque to
> > do that. Less torque needed there than in running the nut on the
> > tormach ER-20 adaptor with a big Crescent wrench which is what I am
> > presently using while the spindle is pin locked by the brake I made.
> >  Those are very nice, but run the cost per tool 

Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 29 October 2015 16:14:56 Bruce Layne wrote:

> Gene:  The point I may have understated in my previous post is that I
> think getting a few more ER20 TTS compatible collet holders will be
> your biggest bang for the buck.  When you only have one, you are
> missing the two big advantages of the TTS system - quick tool changes
> and repeatable Z heights.  If you need to disassemble the ER20 collet
> holder, pull out the collet, change the tool and reassemble, you have
> very slow tool changes and you need to reset the Z height each time. 
> When that's the case (what a hassle!), it matters little whether you
> loosen the drawbar with a wrench, an impact wrench or a pneumatically
> actuated power drawbar.  Compared to mucking around with a single ER20
> collet holder, the drawbar is by far the easiest part of that overall
> problem.  ER20 TTS collet holders are like divorces - they cost a
> lot... because they're worth it!
>
The only divorce I ever got sure was worth it, even if it did cost me 
about $40k.  Turns out she had been playing games with the IRS, she 
didn't have that sort of money, so I was garnisheed for about 2 years.

As has been said, that was the screwing I got for the screwing I got. :(

Still trying to conjure up an automatic tool catcher since I don't have 
the magic spell (or a vitamin supplement) that will grow at least 1 more 
arm.  Them are as scarce as round tuits in these here parts. :(

But I do have repeatable Z heights now, I have stop collars on the tools 
in use ATM.  That has simplicated things a WHOLE bunch.

  
> On 10/29/2015 11:42 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> > If you make your own cylinder it actually all gets a bit simpler.
> > http://www.cnczone.com/forums/vertical-mill-lathe-project-log/109301
> >-cnc.html (There is a link at the bottom to a video of it in action)
>
> Considering that I spend 99% of my time online, reading about CNC
> conversions and watching machining videos, and only about 1% of my
> time in the shop, it's a true tragedy that I didn't encounter your
> solution to my power drawbar problem sooner.  I'm a do-it-myself kinda
> guy, usually to a self destructive degree, so I naturally thought
> about making a custom air cylinder.  Sanity prevailed and I figured
> SMC has forgotten a hundred times more than I'll ever know about
> making an air cylinder, but I didn't take the concept far enough.  The
> project makes a lot of sense when the air cylinder part of the overall
> integrated drawbar mechanism.  Very nicely done, sir!  I'll try to
> keep that concept in my old brain in case I ever need to do this type
> of project again.
>
> I saw where 3D printers can now print a flexible rubbery material. I
> need to 3D print a rubber bracelet with an embossed "WWAPD?" (What
> Would Andy Pugh Do?) as a reminder to check first before I start any
> shop project.
>
> On 10/29/2015 01:18 PM, Jonathan Blissett wrote:
> > You can ask the seller to put the groove in the toolholders - I did
> > and it was still cheap. I've used them to convert an X3 mill. Some
> > pictures and a video here:
> >
> > http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/7656-X3-mill-with-rails-ATC-new-motor
>
> That's a very impressive X3 conversion.  A 16 position ATC?!?  Wow! I
> think you'll know you've finished that CNC conversion when you realize
> there is not a single piece of the X3 remaining!
>
> Your signature line:
>Old router build log here
> ld-logs/2288-1-7*0-74*0-4m-mill-router-building.html=U=IgiJUruTAq
>Op0QWP8IHYBA=0CAcQFjAA=internal-uds-cse=AFQjCNHzK2eBjyDN
>kvNNpkDkbrSId58P1w>. New router build log here
> ong-machine.html>. Lathe build log here
> d-logs/4497-micro-lathe-zero-backlash*-conversion.html=U=hgiJUuS9
>N9TwhQfK0YCIDg=0CAcQFjAA=internal-uds-cse=AFQjCNHAN7QLXF
>2OU7rMv2VFcEqpE3Ccnw>. Electric motorbike project here
> .
>
> You may be my long lost twin.  I built a 2'X4' CNC router but have a
> 2'X2' CNC router to build.  It's a big pile of parts in my shop.  I
> also have a CNC mill conversion and a CNC lathe conversion (even
> though I already build a CNC mini lathe from a little Sherline lathe
> that's surprisingly capable for the small stuff).  I haven't touched
> my CNC projects all summer but I'm about to get back to them.  I just
> spent the last couple of days imagineering an electric bike, but mine
> is a 2WD 2KW electric bicycle, unlike your fabulous 50KW electric
> motorcycle.
>
>
> --
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 

Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[John Dammeyer]

Don't do it.  It's not safe.  The sideways forces created by milling plus
the downward pull from spiral bits can pull it out and fling it across the
room.  I built an entire Gingery Lathe using My Sears Drill press since I
could clamp the quill.  (it was a robust Delta Design).  And I had a friend
with a lathe and a long drill put in a hole through the center of the
spindle so I could attach a drawbar to the MT-3 tooling.
John Dammeyer

> -Original Message-
> From: rayj [mailto:raymo...@frontiernet.net]
> Sent: October-29-15 5:10 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] tool changers
> 
> 
> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> That's what I was thinking, but some MT3 adapters are just rammed in
> place or tapped lightly with a hammer and function adequately.  I was
> wondering if the vacuum was applied and the adapter was brought into
> place so that the vacuum "snapped" it into position if that would be
> enough force to seat is securely.
> 
> Like I said, just wondering out loud.
> 
> Raymond Julian
> Kettle River, MN
> 
> The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty,
> understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system.
> And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness,
> egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men
> admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second.
> -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968)
> 
> On 10/29/2015 06:27 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> > On 29 October 2015 at 23:20, rayj  wrote:
> >> I was wondering if anyone had used
> >> vacuum to snap the holder into place, and if it is likely to be tight
> >> enough for a little light milling.
> >
> > 14.5 psi on an area of 0.88 square inches.
> > 12.75 lbf. I don't think that would be enough. Typical drawbar pulls
> > are about 100x higher.
> >
> >
> 
>

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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 29 October 2015 19:20:13 rayj wrote:

> Greetings,
>
> My little 3 in 1 machine has a hollow quill for using a draw bar to
> pull the MT 3 mail holder into place.  I was wondering if anyone had
> used vacuum to snap the holder into place, and if it is likely to be
> tight enough for a little light milling.
>
> Just kind of wondering out loud. If it's been tried and failed, I
> won't have to wonder any more! :>)
>
> TIA
>
> Raymond Julian
> Kettle River, MN

Vacuum, likely nowhere near enough unless the piston has many square 
inches of surface to pull on.  The max differential pressure is just 
over 14 lbs per square inch.  My toy mill has MT-3 collets for tool 
holders, and I have to get fairly serious on a 14mm wrench to pull it 
tight enough the tool won't walk, usually out. :(

Air pressure, pushing on the underside of the piston would allow a 
smaller piston, but with MT-3, would still need a ton+ of push, and 3 or 
4 tons  to press down and eject.  Hell on spindle bearings, but I've 
been ejecting MT-3 collets with a 24 oz hammer applied hard enough its 
peening the top of the bolt and I've had to grind that "upset" back off 
the top of the hex (or square, I have two bolts, one Metric & 
one 'Merican, to make the socket fit about 4 times now.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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