Re: [Emc-users] A new lathe encoder option.

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 21 July 2021 22:58:21 Chris Albertson wrote:

> The noise here is not electrical noise on the cables.  We assume the
> signal is perfect square waves.This is "quantization noise".
>
> Here is what happens...   Say you have 50 slots on the spindle and the
> motor is turning at 100 RPM.   This is 1.67 revolutions per second so
> 350 pulses per second.  Now let's say your PID algorithm samples the
> encoder 100 times per second.  On average, it will get 3.5 pulses, but
> the count must always be a whole number so sometimes it gets 3 and
> sometimes 4.  Each time, the PID sees this as an error and tries to
> correct it.
>  Quantization noise is what happens when the measurement lacks enough
> resolution.
>
> Noise is defined as an error in the signal and there will always, on
> average be 1/2 count of noise error in the signal, even if it is
> electrically perfect.  If the typical number of counts is 100 per
> period than a 1/2 count noise is only 0.5% but at low speed where you
> expect only 2 counts the 1/2 count error is 25%
>
> The solution is to either add more counts per revolution or use a ten
> times more complex control algorithm.
>
100% correct Chris. so I added resolution. My working scale's for that 
are now in the low 7000's in high gear, and the low 14,000's in low 
gear, all switched by tally switches on the gear shift knobs skirt.

My Pgain in use went from 2.5 to as high as 40, but 20 is good enough 
that the only indication of loading I get is the iron in the motor 
chirping when the servo amps current limits kick in at around 17 amps.
Since the motor is a 9.7 fla motor, I figure its peaking right at 2hp 
when I hear the iron chirp.

I also took advantage of the huge gap in time when neither is valid when 
turniing the knob, so I'm not stopping the motor to save the gears, but 
running it at about 60 rpm when the knob is between positions, doing 
away with the need to reach the spindle and turn it by hand to engage 
the gear being entered. This speed reduction is done long before the 
gear being switched from is dis-engaged.

With Jon's controller, I can do this gear shift at wide open motor 
speeds, 3000 spindle revs in high gear, because the motor is reduced to 
this inbetween speed in about 50 milliseconds, and turning that slow the 
next gear is engaged without giving it help by hand. Normal control is 
restored only when the gears are fully engaged, and 50 milliseconds 
after the new switch has closed, its back up to top speed for whichever 
gear its now in.

However, despite that the gearing between he motor and spindle is random,  
I can still rigid tap with it, because the index pulse is now an ats-667 
watching a steel screw silly glued to the side of the drawbar cap, so I 
still have a once per turn index coming in.

> On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 3:36 PM John Dammeyer 
>
> wrote:
> > It's been a while since I did quadrature programming but if you have
> > two sensors don't the two work together to validate signals because
> > they can only change under certain conditions.  So noise can't
> > totally screw things up.
> >
> > Now having said that of course I did change from US Digital on my DC
> > Servos to CUI because they were impacted by noise and over time
> > there were more counts in one direction than the other.  So a return
> > to zero wasn't the original zero.
> >
> > So I'm probably all wet.  But 60 pulses per rev is a lot different
> > from thousands.  Might be better to clean up the signals at the
> > source before they are ever counted.
> >
> > John
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: July-21-21 11:54 AM
> > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] A new lathe encoder option.
> > >
> > > On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 at 19:49, Chris Albertson
> > > 
> >
> > wrote:
> > > > Could you solve the noise issue with a phase-locked loop?
> > >
> > > Yes, this would be a far better solution. But I didn't want to
> > > re-write the encoder counter from scratch.
> > >
> > > Ideally you would use two PLLs, one for the pulses and one for the
> > > index, to predict the pulse gap and extrapolate through it.
> > >
> > > --
> > > atp
> > > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils
> > > and lunatics."
> > > � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> > >
> > >
> > > _

Re: [Emc-users] A new lathe encoder option.

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 22 July 2021 01:02:26 dave engvall wrote:

> "The solution is to either add more counts per revolution or use a ten
> timesmore complex control algorithm."
>
> IIUC then the real problem here is statistical. That is the sample
> size is too small to be significant. Maybe an over-simplification of
> the issue but:
>
> I think there are a couple of ways to approach this. (1) time stamp
> the index pulse.
>           (2) use a high count encoder and scale as necessary.
> This is clearly limited by the response of the  optics  for the
> disc. 100 - 200 KHz for the inexpensive stuff.
> I don't think there is a one size fits all solution. In electronic
> terms lathe spindles are pretty slow and have a lot of angular
> momentum. Most lathe spindle
> rpm range is not a lot over 5-6 binary bits.
> I've actually considered putting a disc brake on the spindle. Not
> exactly joking.

Needless mechanical complexity if you use a vfd to drive the lathe 
spindle. vfd's do not come programmed out of the box. Properly 
programmed, and despite the mass of an 8" 4 jaw mounted, I can rigid tap 
on that lathe at slower speeds. I've carved up some hal code driving a 
pyvcp display that displays the overtravel of the spindle after motion 
has issued the reversal at the bottom of a g33.1 move, actually anytime 
the spindle is reversed, and with proper programming of the vfd, I get 
at 100 rpms, an overshoot of .247 turns. It gets much worse at higher 
spindle speeds since nothing can repeal the stored energy represented by 
e=mv2. At 500 revs, its several turns and the belts are complaining. But 
the vfd is not complaining. its simply doing what it was told to do. An 
m5 from the keyboard stops the spindle dead in about a turn. vfd's, 

Ditto an error from one of the 3 phase stepper-servo's now moving it.

Properly programmed, vfd's are indeed full 4 quadrant controllers. They 
can stop just as quick as they can start. But they don't come tuned like 
that out of the box. Thats a travesty out of the box.

> Just late evening rattling the cage.
>
> Dave
>
> >>>> Could you solve the noise issue with a phase-locked loop?
> >>>
> >>> Yes, this would be a far better solution. But I didn't want to
> >>> re-write the encoder counter from scratch.
> >>>
> >>> Ideally you would use two PLLs, one for the pulses and one for the
> >>> index, to predict the pulse gap and extrapolate through it.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> atp
> >>> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> >>> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils
> >>> and lunatics."
> >>> � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> >>>
> >>> ___Emc-users mailing
> >>> list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >>
> >> ___
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>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
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Re: [Emc-users] Lathe Spindle Drive Questions

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 26 July 2021 18:11:45 Earl Weaver wrote:

> Hi,
> I have a lathe spindle with 8 in. chuck that is run with a 5HP
> Reliance DC Motor and Reliance DC Drive.
> I just cannot get much power out of it at low RPM. Was trying to turn
> 8in OD steel, at approx. 200 -250 RPM with .005 in. cut. It didn't
> work, it just stalled.
> When I run it at low RPM the chuck rotation is movable, not firm.
> I can take a hold of the chuck and hold it and move it back and forth
> as it rotates.
> It also is more noisy at low RPM.
>
All of the above and below description, would seem to fit where the DC 
supply is duff. Do  you have ny docs on it, and test gear like a scope 
and dvm?

> This lathe is a Linuxcnc retrofit with J Elson's  Universal PWM
> Controller and DAC Spindle control.
> The DC drive has tachometer feedback from the motor.
> I have tried numerous times to adjust, tune the drive, without
> success. I also tried closed loop control from the spindle encoder
> within LCNC, also no success.
>
> So here come the questions:
> Should I keep trying to get this DC Drive working or would it be
> better to switch to  AC Variable Frequency Drive?
> If I would switch to AC VFD would 5HP AC Motor  be sufficient size for
> existing 1:1 ratio double v belt to drive 8" spindle chuck?
> What torque at low RPM can I expect for this 5HP DC motor? am I
> expecting to much from it?
> Would there be a better drive option for the existing DC motor?
> Any recommendations?
>
Can you copy the motors nameplate data to us? And do you have a dvm with 
an amps range that includes the amperage listed on the nameplate as FLA?
That stands for "Full Load Amps" but many DC motors can be pushed harder 
than that, up to twice that if its starting a heavy load as it will drop 
a lot as it reaches the requested speed in a second or so.

> Thanks,


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
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Re: [Emc-users] Lathe Spindle Drive Questions

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 27 July 2021 05:13:28 andy pugh wrote:

> On Mon, 26 Jul 2021 at 23:55, Earl Weaver  
wrote:
> > I have a lathe spindle with 8 in. chuck that is run with a 5HP
> > Reliance DC Motor and Reliance DC Drive.
>
> What kind of DC motor is this? Is it a permanent-magnet servo motor?
>
> Typically DC motors perform better at lower speeds than an AC
> induction motor, so I don't think that swapping to a motor/VFD
> combination will help.
>
> If the motor is running closed-loop speed control from the tachometer
> then, as suggested, you should test whether full rated current is
> being applied when the lathe is cutting at the limit.
>
> I would expect a speed-controlled loop spindle to feel springy. As you
> move the chuck faster than commanded speed the drive will reduce the
> current to try to slow the spindle (maybe even reversing in to
> braking)
> Then as you wobble it back the other way it will take some time to
> wind up the other way.
>
> The only way to make the spindle feel "stiff" in your test would be to
> close the position loop with the encoder, but then how do you drive it
> as a spindle with a speed command?

With a honking big power supply, and a high resolution encoder.
I have 2 machines with 1hp rated motors, both claiming to be 90 volt 
motors with an FLA rating of 9.7 amps. Both are powered by oversized 
power supply's outputing around 127 volts at nearly 20 amps.
One has a very hi res encoder with a scale for 1 rev of a  bit over 7000 
in hi gear,and a bit over 14,000 in low gear. That one has a Pgain of 
20+ in its pid. Control isn't just "stiff", the only way I know when I 
am hitting the limit of about 17 amps into the motor while rigid 
tapping, is by listening carefully for the iron in the motor to chirp 
whn it runs into the limit set in a pwm-servo amp that Jon Elson makes. 
Up to that point, the tach does NOT sag because of the load.

However, the OP's motor is severely disadvantaged by the 1/1 drive if it 
is getting the nameplate FLA, but I'd be checking the PSU. Something is 
definitely fubar. The meter readings I asked for but haven't yet seen 
would be a huge aid at pointing the finger in the right direction.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
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Re: [Emc-users] Lathe Spindle Drive Questions

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 27 July 2021 08:16:40 andy pugh wrote:

> On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 at 12:41, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > > The only way to make the spindle feel "stiff" in your test would
> > > be to close the position loop with the encoder, but then how do
> > > you drive it as a spindle with a speed command?
> >
> > With a honking big power supply, and a high resolution encoder.
> > I have 2 machines with 1hp rated motors, both claiming to be 90 volt
>
> You seem to have misunderstood my point.
>
> Is your spindle stiff against "wiggling" when running at low speed
> under no load? My guess would be that it is not.
>
> And I also doubt that you are running it in closed-loop position
> control, as a spindle.

Please define the difference. At creep speeds it sure acts like its under 
position control. And yes, its just as stiff at 20 revs as it is at 
2700. That power is available at any speed when the Pgain is 20 or more. 
The ridiculous encoder resolution sees to that. One of the smarter moves 
I ever made was moving the encoder to an shop made extension stud 
sticking out of the rear of the motor. Quantization noise is inaudible 
now.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
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Re: [Emc-users] Lathe Spindle Drive Questions

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 27 July 2021 11:48:29 Earl Weaver wrote:

> My 8" chuck has a max 2500 RPM, I would think 1500 RPM would be
> sufficient for my use.
> The motor has 2 line wires and 2 shunt field wires. plus tachometer
> feedback wires.
>
> On 7/27/2021 10:02 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> > On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 at 14:10, Earl Weaver  
wrote:
> >> Would there be a benefit for me to change the motor pulley to a
> >> smaller size?
> >
> > I think that would depend on your planned use.
> >
> > My lathe can do 3000rpm but the macros I use with constant surface
> > speed top out at 1500rpm and I very, very, rarely find that too
> > slow. So, I suspect that, unless you do a lot of very tiny parts,
> > gearing for 1500rpm would suit you better if you regularly make 8"
> > parts.
> >
> > My lathe, at 3000rpm, is unusually fast for an 8" lathe.
> >
> > CNC and carbide has changed the rules a bit, but if you go back to
> > the 70s a 10" lathe would tend to top out at 1500 and a 15" at 800
> > rpm.
> >
> > It seems that your spindle motor is a wound-field motor, I don't
> > know very much about those, but I think that they have rather lower
> > low-speed torque than a permanent magnet motor.
> > (Though this might depend on whether the motor is wired shunt or
> > series) But they are typically used where a wider range of operating
> > speeds than can be used with an induction motor is required.
>
Actually, the torque goes up as the speed goes down, because they run at 
the speed determined by the counter emf generated by varying the current 
in the field winding, and the higher current actually causes it to slow 
down, but at the same time, the torque rises because the field magnets 
get stronger, generating the balancing back emf at a lower armature 
speed. Unfortunately for those motors, the non-grain oriented steel used 
in those motors is saturated magnetically, at around 1/4 of the magnetic 
field we can make with todays magnetic materiel. Not very efficient and 
it shows in the power bill to run it. 

My bet is that since this is a very old tech, the power supply will have 
both selenium rectifiers and wet electrolyte filter capacitors, and one, 
or the other or both have reached their retirement age, like me a long 
time back, and like me, are no longer working very well.

Where are your digs located Earl? I am in north central WV.

> **Earl Weaver
> Email: weaverst...@frontier.com <mailto:weaverst...@frontier.com>
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
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Re: [Emc-users] Lathe Spindle Drive Questions

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 27 July 2021 14:43:49 Earl Weaver wrote:

> Ok, Here is my attempt at taking amp readings.
> I attached my AC Clamp Meter to lines A1 and A2 going from drive to
> motor.

But you are trying to measure a poorly filtered DC at that point and a 
clamp on meter ignores the DC component. Or did you break the circuit, 
and connect the leads of that meter to the ends of the break?
 
> Running no load:  4.9 
> Original Pot Setting: A1=41.9 & A2= 42.6
> Full Pot Setting:  A1= 47.3 & A2= 51.5
> At full Pot Setting it trips the breaker on the drive when it stalls.

This could be a clue. if you can measure the DC current going thru the 
field winding, the one labeled 3 amps, and finding a place on the speed 
pot where the current drops to almost nothing, you just found your 
problem. I have my doubts, but as a lng term CET, I've learned that 
anything is possible.

> On 7/27/2021 1:06 PM, Earl Weaver wrote:
> > On 7/27/2021 12:13 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> >> I skimmed the drive manual looking for any info on tuning the
> >> velocity loop, but could ne see anything.
> >> However: Are you sure that your tachometer is set up right? (I
> >> think it probably is or speed would be way off)
> >> And is the current limit pot set to suit your actual motor?
> >
> > The manual that I linked is not an exact match to my drive. I
> > searched but did not find an exact match , but this one is close.
> > Yes, I believe the tach is set up right. I can get the speed control
> > to work good. It's just the power at low RPM is the biggest problem.
> > Your description from an earlier post describes it perfectly.
> > "I would expect a speed-controlled loop spindle to feel springy. As
> > you move the chuck faster than commanded speed the drive will reduce
> > the current to try to slow the spindle (maybe even reversing in to
> > braking)
> > Then as you wobble it back the other way it will take some time to
> > wind up the other way."
> > I will check the current limit pots to see if that is limiting the
> > torque.
> >
> > **Earl Weaver
> > Email: weaverst...@frontier.com <mailto:weaverst...@frontier.com>
> >
> >
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] Lathe Spindle Drive Questions

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 27 July 2021 16:10:40 Earl Weaver wrote:

> On 7/27/2021 1:43 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Actually, the torque goes up as the speed goes down, because they
> > run at the speed determined by the counter emf generated by varying
> > the current in the field winding, and the higher current actually
> > causes it to slow down, but at the same time, the torque rises
> > because the field magnets get stronger, generating the balancing
> > back emf at a lower armature speed. Unfortunately for those motors,
> > the non-grain oriented steel used in those motors is saturated
> > magnetically, at around 1/4 of the magnetic field we can make with
> > todays magnetic materiel. Not very efficient and it shows in the
> > power bill to run it.
> >
> > My bet is that since this is a very old tech, the power supply will
> > have both selenium rectifiers and wet electrolyte filter capacitors,
> > and one, or the other or both have reached their retirement age,
> > like me a long time back, and like me, are no longer working very
> > well.
> >
> > Where are your digs located Earl? I am in north central WV.
> >
> >> **Earl Weaver
> >> Email: weaverst...@frontier.com <mailto:weaverst...@frontier.com>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______
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> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> Gene,
> Yes, this is an approx. 1984 machine.

That new? I would have guessed 1934, the year I was born. That means of 
making a variable speed motor is ancient tech because its not very 
efficient. An AC motor and a vfd should cut the energy bill in half 
compared to that.

> I suspect the drive has seen it's better days. The lathe comes out of
> a tech school, hasn't been used much. Probably sat unused for "years?"
> I converted it from an old Fanuc controller to LinuxCNC.
> Is there a good option for replacing the DC Drive and using the
> existing DC Motor, or am I better off changing to AC VFD?

I think I'd put a 3 phase 5 to 7 horse or so motor in it, geared down by 
about 4/1, with a 7.5 horse vfd, and let the vfd do the speed control. 
I'm doing that twice here from linuxcnc. You can take that 5 or 7 horse 
to at least 200 hz, which will run it a bit more than 3x its normal 
speed. I have a smaller sheldon, an 11x54, that came original with a 3/4 
horse single phase and a batch of shiftable belts. I put a 50 yo 1 horse 
in it after putting fresh bearings into the pair of them I got for a 50 
dollar bill aat a local recyclers yard. Driven from a 250 volt powered 
single phase line, I've shifted it up to 2nd gear once. I can do from 
about 20 rpm to around 600  without shifting gears. And 600 is fast 
enough to start a fire with the flying swarf. But you will have to learn 
how to program the vfd, they are horribly badly tuned straight OOTB.

One of the secrets there is I don't self disable the vfd until its down 
to 5HZ, and its programmed to not exceed the motors nameplate FLA. And 
while that slow kills the effectiveness of its cooling fan, I can run it 
at the limit for half an hour and still lay my hand on the motor w/o 
burning it.

My Sheldon, with that 1 horse motor has had the vfd tweaked, and I can 
watch the overshoot in turns with an 8" 4 jaw mounted so an m4 reversal 
turns it around, measuring the turn from the time motion issues the 
command while its running at 100 revs fwd, to the encoder issuing the 
first reverse motion, and its rarely over .25 turns, usually about .235.

At 500 revs its several full turns, but I don't tap that fast. 

> I'm located up here in central Wisconsin, moved here in 2008 from
> Pennsylvania.
> I've been through West Virginia already. Mountainous? I still like the
> mountains out east!

Went thru the Dells, 70 years ago. Rode the tour in a surplus duck. Nice 
trip.

But I came here in '84, the CBS affiliate needed a Chief Engineer, so I 
finished out my working time there, retiring in the middle of 2002. So 
in addition to the 1st phone, I am also a CET, and those are a lot 
rarer.

We here in WV generally price level dirt by the cost of the dozer 
operator plus the gallons of #2 he burnt making it level. Very little 
naturally level land here.

But first, lets measure the range of this motors FIELD currant so we can 
maybe figure out why its missbehaving.

> **Earl Weaver
> Email: weaverst...@frontier.com <mailto:weaverst...@frontier.com>
>
Take care Earl.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
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Re: [Emc-users] Lathe Spindle Drive Questions

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 28 July 2021 05:33:46 andy pugh wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 at 00:46, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > > Yes, this is an approx. 1984 machine.
> >
> > That new? I would have guessed 1934, the year I was born. That means
> > of making a variable speed motor is ancient tech because its not
> > very efficient.
>
> I think you are maybe thinking of the Ward Leonard set, as used on the
> early Monarch 10EE, where an AC motor ran a DC generator which, in
> turn ran a DC motor.
> That is pretty old-tech, but a DC motor with solid state drive is
> hardly old-school at all (only the use of field coils is slightly
> outdated at that motor size)
>
Even with my broadcast history, big motors in the 10 to 25 HP range have 
always been std 3 phase. I've only read about using the control of speed 
via the field currant applied, and here I probably need to mention just 
for the record that loss of field leaves the motor running on residual 
magnetism in that old steel, and if unloaded, will spin up till it 
explodes. If loaded, it will trip every breaker back to the fuses on the 
pole.\

And having some experience with that, I would not bet more than 50 cents 
that they would actually break the circuit, I've been witness on two 
occasions when it did not, the ceramic tube containing that fuse had 
blown so many times that it was metal plated on the inside and failed to 
open the 7200 volt line, eventually throwing hot pieces into the grass 
below the pole, causing fires we had to stomp out. We also had to 
replace 4 750mcm cables from the substation cans on the pole, into and 
thru the weather head, and on into the distribution bus inside the 
building. That building, which preceded the NEC by a couple decades, had 
no entrance breaker, and an open transmitter door by a curious new 
operator crowbared a 4000 lb plate transformer, and a GE AK-225 breaker 
feeding that transformer failed to open from old age, which led to the 
7.5 amp fuse wires in the poles flag switches to try and open.

Thank $DIETY we had a spare transformer so we were only off the air 
something under 3 days.  Just one of the BTDT's over my nearly 40 years 
in broadcast engineering.

> > An AC motor and a vfd should cut the energy bill in half
> > compared to that.
>
> But will have less low-speed torque. Bear in mind that the lathe is
> geared for 2500rpm and was probably running at 250rpm (steel part 8"
> dia, carbide tooling)

I had assumed a change in the gearing to address that. Probablt with 
stuff from Tractor Supply.  At 2500 revs, throwing swarf, I'd want a 
metal wall between that swarf and me. That stuff would be start a fire 
hot.

> A VFD would be down at 5Hz to achieve that.

Which I am doing on my ancient Sheldon. With torque enough to cut a 10 
thou chip with a carbide tool. At 100 revs, the vfd is at 16HZ. Bring in 
the backgear and I can turn the house around.

> I think that a DC motor is appropriate here, but probably a PM servo
> motor would be better.

I won't argue that. Both of my brushed PMDC motors are getting long in 
the tooth and running fine on the OEM brushes.  And don't have a minimum 
speed other than enough to overcome friction. And the motors FLA torque 
is available down to zero speed. Temp rise limits with time at low fan 
speeds will eventually wave a hand at you of course. Generally the job 
is done by then, but its a consideration not to be ignored.

> Is this the motor originally supplied with the lathe?

I suspect it is, but Earl would have to answer that.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] Lathe Spindle Drive Questions

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 28 July 2021 12:57:30 Earl Weaver wrote:

> **I took some voltage readings on the field windings F1 and F2.
> This is on the edge of my experience with electrical testing,
> so you may need to coach me with getting the readings that you need.
>
> Motor stopped:
>  From Ground to F1 = +107.9 -  Ground to F2 = -107.8
> Leads on F1 and F2 = 215.0
>
> Motor @ 50 RPM :
>  From Ground to F1 = +107.5 -  Ground to F2 = -107.4
> Leads on F1 and F2 = 214.4
>
> Motor stalled:
>  From Ground to F1 = +105.7 -  Ground to F2 = -105.5
>
> I have noticed if the main power disconnect switch is let on the
> machine for a length of time, the motor will feel hot to the touch.
> Is this normal? The F1 and F2 wires show voltage anytime the main
> power disconnect switch is on.
>
> It appears to me that this is the original motor supplied with the
> lathe.
>
Since that motor is shown with a max field currant of 3 amps, and you 
have nominally 215 volts available, the resistance of that winding s/b 
in the 72 ohm area. Can you disconnect it and measure that ohmage?

Also as a side comment, I disable all power to the machine when motion is 
off, making linuxcnc running AND motion (F2) on as the power switch for 
the whole thing, but I get cute with time delays, so the turn on is 
current limited for about 4 seconds by a big high wattage resistor 
allowing a much smaller circuit breaker since the inrush at turn-on is 
limited. And in your case if the field winding is good, add an off delay 
for the field circuit AC power src using $11 HOYMC SSR's which you can 
control from a std bob card or whatever. Delay long enough that the 
instantly turned off AC power to the armature supply has decayed to 
where the spin-up by shutting down the field supply is no longer a 
problem.

That is why they didn't turn it off at all in the first place.

But its also a 645 watt load on the power bill anytime the breaker is on, 
and that 645 watts is the major source of the motors heating when on. A 
couple rough service 120 volt light bulbs of lower wattage, in series 
added across the 215 dc to the armature will hasten the demise of that 
power to a safer level by acting as bleeders, and tell you how long you 
need to delay the field shutdown. Say 10 seconds after the bulbs have 
gone dark, if that's not enough, and the motor still jerks, add another 
5 or 10 to the delay time via the setp in the hal file that sets that. 
Or use higher wattage bulbs for a quicker drain. Get back to me if you 
need to when that time comes.

You could get even cuter and turn the light bulbs off with a relay when 
the motion is enabled. No delays in that circuit needed, and the bulbs 
should come on and then fade with the F2 that toggles it off.

And leave LinuxCNC running, or make sure the machine is dead before 
stopping it. I tally that stuff with pyvcp leds in my axis gui.

> **Earl Weaver
> Email: weaverst...@frontier.com <mailto:weaverst...@frontier.com>
>
> On 7/28/2021 9:47 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Wednesday 28 July 2021 05:33:46 andy pugh wrote:
> >> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 at 00:46, Gene Heskett 
> >
> > wrote:
> >>>> Yes, this is an approx. 1984 machine.
> >>>
> >>> That new? I would have guessed 1934, the year I was born. That
> >>> means of making a variable speed motor is ancient tech because its
> >>> not very efficient.
> >>
> >> I think you are maybe thinking of the Ward Leonard set, as used on
> >> the early Monarch 10EE, where an AC motor ran a DC generator which,
> >> in turn ran a DC motor.
> >> That is pretty old-tech, but a DC motor with solid state drive is
> >> hardly old-school at all (only the use of field coils is slightly
> >> outdated at that motor size)
> >
> > Even with my broadcast history, big motors in the 10 to 25 HP range
> > have always been std 3 phase. I've only read about using the control
> > of speed via the field currant applied, and here I probably need to
> > mention just for the record that loss of field leaves the motor
> > running on residual magnetism in that old steel, and if unloaded,
> > will spin up till it explodes. If loaded, it will trip every breaker
> > back to the fuses on the pole.\
> >
> > And having some experience with that, I would not bet more than 50
> > cents that they would actually break the circuit, I've been witness
> > on two occasions when it did not, the ceramic tube containing that
> > fuse had blown so many times that it was metal plated on the inside
> > and failed to open the 7200 volt line, eventually throwing hot
> > pieces into the grass below the pole, causing fires we had to stomp
> > out. We also had to replace 

Re: [Emc-users] Metallurgical Advice?

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 28 July 2021 13:57:20 Todd Zuercher wrote:

> Well, we could lose the 20ft long Bosch Rexroth linear rails and
> bearings.  (Which I'm guessing aren't particularly cheap either.)
>
Agreed. So I think I would dismount the table from the bearings and see 
if it could be heli-arc'd, and be prepared to do some shimming as its 
remounted to the bearings. Then once the spindle is back among the 
living, see about machining any warpage back out.

> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street 
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>
> -Original Message-
> From: andy pugh 
> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2021 1:38 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
>  Subject: Re: [Emc-users]
> Metallurgical Advice?
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
>
> On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 at 18:28, Todd Zuercher  
wrote:
> > Is there any hope of repairing the table?  Are we going to have to
> > replace the whole table?  Could the crack be welded, or is that a
> > bad idea?
>
> It's probably a bad idea, but I would think that it is worth at least
> a try. You don't have a lot to lose.
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics." — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
> ___
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>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] Lathe Spindle Drive Questions

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 28 July 2021 15:25:01 Chris Albertson wrote:

> Do you really need to worry about inrush tripping the breaker?
> 1) If the DC supply is the old linear type, it will have a very large
> filter capacitor and supply peak loads without a large AC draw.  The
> trick is to turn on the supply and then the motor a second later.

Now, imagine that supply consists of 4 toroid transformers each capable 
of developing the nominally 63 volts plus and minus, for a 1 kw analog 
audio amp. and the filter caps are 6 in each supply of 9200 uf at 65 
volts, and each transformer is treated as a single supply. wired two in 
parallel and two tall for a combined voltage of around 126 volts and 
220800 uf. Plug that into a 30 amp breaker and flip the switch.  
clunkiest switch you ever heard because that 30 amp breaker went down 
like a shotgun on the first half cycle of power, essentially 
simultaneous with the click of the switch. So I hit the junkbox and come 
up with two 40 amp SSR's and a 50 ohm 200 watt resistor, added a couple 
time delays controlled by hal and driven by the F2 state such that the 
50 ohm is in series with the supply line for the first 4 seconds and is 
shorted after that. Now it runs fine on a 15 amp breaker, but will trip 
it if I ignore the motors chirping because the pwm-servo is set to about 
17 amps but it takes several seconds, so I settled for a 20 amp in that 
slot.

And for Ralph's problem with the Washington inspectors, I suspect they 
are reading the rules wrong, here they don't care about the load, the 
only thing they checked outside of the box was the ground wiring to the 
rods.

And for lack of any other pressing duties, helped me bore 2 holes thru 
about 8" of green concrete the required 6 feet apart to make it meet 
code.  After he ok'd hooking up the drop so we had power to run the 
hammerdrill. 

Cheers Chris, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] Lathe Spindle Drive Questions

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 28 July 2021 23:08:48 John Dammeyer wrote:

> Gene is right.  The input surge from transformers and capacitors can
> be quite major.  To get around that I build a couple of circuits to
> slow down the input surge and to also clamp over voltage from
> decelerating DC servos plus drain the caps of the 105VDC quickly so
> that it was safe to work on.
>
> http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/drawings/MillCNCDrawings.html
>
> The above link is to my dirty laundry so to speak.  Essentially I put
> a 47 Ohm 10W resistor in series with the primary winding on power up. 

It will also serve as a fuse in the event the circuit malfunctions :) My 
200 watter will survive if one of the SSR's shorts. Or fails to trigger.  
And is simpler as well because except for the SSR's, its all in the .hal 
recipe. In fact on that machine, I'm doing it twice as I also limit the 
first seconds inrush to the switching supplies that run all the steppers 
and servo's on that machine. Again using a scrap box part, in that case 
a 10 ohm 70 watt but the rest is the same.  I'm a great fan of having 
leftover i/o pins specifically so I can do such tricks as the need 
arises.
 
> How long it's there is based on the PIC controller that also runs the
> high voltage clamp and drain circuit.
>
I haven't worried about that surge at reversal time, it hits about 170 
volts, but since its used up re-accelerating the motor in the reverse 
direction, the 130 volt rating of two 65 volt caps in series has been 
totally not a problem as the overvoltage is gone again in 50 to 75 
milliseconds. The caps, being electrolytic, may in fact leak at that 
point but its such short term there is no detectable heating. Basically 
it just serves to keeping the caps well formed. Been doing it for 5 or 6 
years now.

In fact, I've had to profile that turnaround, slowing it some, to get rid 
of the z following error because it can't reverse direction as fast as 
the spindle can, by running the drive to the pwmgen thru a limit3. The 
actual direction change is held up until the motor is stopped. And I can 
still reverse the spindle at 3000 rpm in <400 milliseconds. hal is a 
very helpful tool, you could even have it make your coffee. That 
wouldn't be any more complex than coding up a tool changer.

> John Dammeyer
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> > Sent: July-28-21 3:24 PM
> > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Lathe Spindle Drive Questions
> >
> > On Wednesday 28 July 2021 15:25:01 Chris Albertson wrote:
> > > Do you really need to worry about inrush tripping the breaker?
> > > 1) If the DC supply is the old linear type, it will have a very
> > > large filter capacitor and supply peak loads without a large AC
> > > draw.  The trick is to turn on the supply and then the motor a
> > > second later.
> >
> > Now, imagine that supply consists of 4 toroid transformers each
> > capable of developing the nominally 63 volts plus and minus, for a 1
> > kw analog audio amp. and the filter caps are 6 in each supply of
> > 9200 uf at 65 volts, and each transformer is treated as a single
> > supply. wired two in parallel and two tall for a combined voltage of
> > around 126 volts and 220800 uf. Plug that into a 30 amp breaker and
> > flip the switch. clunkiest switch you ever heard because that 30 amp
> > breaker went down like a shotgun on the first half cycle of power,
> > essentially simultaneous with the click of the switch. So I hit the
> > junkbox and come up with two 40 amp SSR's and a 50 ohm 200 watt
> > resistor, added a couple time delays controlled by hal and driven by
> > the F2 state such that the 50 ohm is in series with the supply line
> > for the first 4 seconds and is shorted after that. Now it runs fine
> > on a 15 amp breaker, but will trip it if I ignore the motors
> > chirping because the pwm-servo is set to about 17 amps but it takes
> > several seconds, so I settled for a 20 amp in that slot.
> >
> > And for Ralph's problem with the Washington inspectors, I suspect
> > they are reading the rules wrong, here they don't care about the
> > load, the only thing they checked outside of the box was the ground
> > wiring to the rods.
> >
> > And for lack of any other pressing duties, helped me bore 2 holes
> > thru about 8" of green concrete the required 6 feet apart to make it
> > meet code.  After he ok'd hooking up the drop so we had power to run
> > the hammerdrill.
> >
> > Cheers Chris, Gene Heskett
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>

Re: [Emc-users] Lathe Spindle Drive Questions

[Gene Heskett]

> current.  Heat is "i squared r" and you want to heat these things.
>
> Now the best part.   If you are a hobbyist or make prototype or
> one-off equipment like most of us here, Ametherm will give you a
> lifetime supply of different kinds of thermistors for free as samples.
>  They have a ton of educational material and online calculators on
> their web side and their engineers will talk to you.
> https://www.ametherm.com/

They didn't exist back then, in fact it was difficult to obtain a 
replacement part even from the makers, they were not available at your 
common electronic parts houses until the tail end of the 60's.

> These devices are not total magic but when combined with surge
> suppression diodes will keep surges, static electric charge and back
> EMI from crossing between devices. Assiadall modern electronics use
> these and for good reason.
>
> You can also do things like epoxy one to a heat sink (or a motor
> frame) and then it will provide a voltage based on temperature.  They
> are simpler to use than other methods. Ametherm will give you a dozen
> out two for the asking.
>
> My first application was on the AC mains side of a vacuum tube-based
> amp Makes a very nice "slow start" when you turn it on.   That and
> some other ideas allow people today to build tube gear that greatly
> outperforms the old 1960s stuff.
>
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:26 PM Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > On Wednesday 28 July 2021 15:25:01 Chris Albertson wrote:
> > > Do you really need to worry about inrush tripping the breaker?
> > > 1) If the DC supply is the old linear type, it will have a very
> > > large filter capacitor and supply peak loads without a large AC
> > > draw.  The trick is to turn on the supply and then the motor a
> > > second later.
> >
> > Now, imagine that supply consists of 4 toroid transformers each
> > capable of developing the nominally 63 volts plus and minus, for a 1
> > kw analog audio amp. and the filter caps are 6 in each supply of
> > 9200 uf at 65 volts, and each transformer is treated as a single
> > supply. wired two in parallel and two tall for a combined voltage of
> > around 126 volts and 220800 uf. Plug that into a 30 amp breaker and
> > flip the switch. clunkiest switch you ever heard because that 30 amp
> > breaker went down like a shotgun on the first half cycle of power,
> > essentially simultaneous with the click of the switch. So I hit the
> > junkbox and come up with two 40 amp SSR's and a 50 ohm 200 watt
> > resistor, added a couple time delays controlled by hal and driven by
> > the F2 state such that the 50 ohm is in series with the supply line
> > for the first 4 seconds and is shorted after that. Now it runs fine
> > on a 15 amp breaker, but will trip it if I ignore the motors
> > chirping because the pwm-servo is set to about 17 amps but it takes
> > several seconds, so I settled for a 20 amp in that slot.

Thanks for reading my rant.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] Something went wrong.

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 03 August 2021 05:31:56 andy pugh wrote:

> On Tue, 3 Aug 2021 at 07:58,  
wrote:
> > I draw all this from my own ballscrew conversion of my own mill,
> > some 20 years ago. If I was doing it again, I would use two nuts,
> > with spring tension between the pair
>
> Springs might not be the best way. The common way to tension double
> nuts is to (basically) screw them into each other and lock the angular
> relationship.
>
> You _can_ get preloaded single nuts, using oversized balls. That only
> works if the ball track is the right shape, though, it needs to be a
> 4-point contact shape.

Which I'd suspect as being subject to rapid initial wear until it was 
just a normal screw with about a thou of backlash.

For me, I bought C7 grade which may have 2 thou but in several years has 
not gotten significantly worse. Protecting the screw from contaminants 
is the most important thing for long life. On my Sheldon, the Z screw, a 
1450mm long 25mm C7, got sealed bearings on both ends, a collar to clamp 
a bellows to on both ends of both sections, and 2 of the 6 mounting 
holes in the nut were drilled all the way thru so air could get from one 
side of the nut to the other as the nut moved. The nut gets one pump of 
grease a year. Backlash, some of which is in the end bearing, was about 
1.9 thou 5 years ago and still is. It has not been uncovered in that 
time. I don't have a bellows on the x screw but its channel in the 
carriage is sealed top and bottom unless the carriage is clear in. 
exposing the screw behind the QCTP boss. No compound since LCNC is 
better than mechanical you set by eyeball. Plus it was busted from a 
fallover when I bought it. I keep a rag over the slot in that event.

That faint thumping?  Me, knocking on wood, no swarf has gotting into it 
yet...

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] I may help you

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 03 August 2021 09:01:46 Laurent DEVAUX wrote:

> Dear Linuxcnc Team,
>
> I like very much LinuxCNC and I use it on my personnal mill.
> I'm not able to help you into programming but I can do it into
> translation (US -> FR). Si, if I may help you into french translation,
> please don't hesitate to contact me.
>
> Best regards.
> Laurent DEVAUX

I don't have any influence over those things, but considering the English 
docs deb is almost 20 megs, while the current French version is just 
over 6 megs as built last night on my pi, taking this gentleman up on 
his offer sounds like a good idea.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] Just a little rigid Tapping Clip. With peck tapping

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 09 August 2021 20:16:50 andrew beck wrote:

> Quick answer before I go out.
>
> Peck Tapping breaks the chip otherwise they can break taps.  Eg tap m6
> down 30mm you might break it.  But do it in two bites you should be
> sweet and rpm is 400.
>
> If I somehow work out how to know if g33.1 (rigid Tapping is active)
> and export that to a python script. Then I can change my spindle
> acceralation briefly and tap at 1000rpm with almost no over shoot.  
> The spindle Vfd can reverse in 120degrees currently at 1500rpm

Be carefull with that John, else you may get following errors because the 
Z can't keep up.

> But that will take some coding I think.
>
> I can change acceralation on the fly with custom m codes and halcmd
> currently but need to to set it up to automatically change back and
> forth if rigid Tapping is active
>
> On Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 11:50 AM John Dammeyer  
wrote:
> > Impressive.   Lots of questions.
> >
> > Why did you make two passes?  Just because?  Seems like the spirals
> > could get caught and muck up the threads on the second pass.
> >
> > Was this steel or aluminium?
> >
> > What type of coolant are you using?
> >
> > Do you have an oil separator disk or belt and aeration to keep it
> > from getting smelly?
> >
> > I did my 10-32 tapping at 150 RPM.  Still scary how fast it moves up
> > and down.
> >
> > John
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: andrew beck [mailto:andrewbeck0...@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: August-09-21 1:20 PM
> > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > > Subject: [Emc-users] Just a little rigid Tapping Clip. With peck
> > > tapping
> > >
> > > M14x2 spiral flute tap.
> > >
> > > Rpm 400
> > >
> > > Pecking 15mm.total depth 35
> > >
> > > I can turn main power off at the wall and it will re line up with
> > > tapped threads so long as I leave it in the vice.
> > >
> > > That's so cool.  Love linuxcnc
> > >
> > > Might try a m20 tap sometime.  I have 7.5kw spindle.  Be
> > > interesting to
> >
> > see
> >
> > > if it can push it lol
> > >
> > > https://youtu.be/6QX2Qm3I2Ak
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > ___
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>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] Just a little rigid Tapping Clip. With peck tapping

[Gene Heskett]

> >>>> Impressive.   Lots of questions.
> >>>>
> >>>> Why did you make two passes?  Just because?  Seems like the
> >>>> spirals
> >>
> >> could
> >>
> >>>> get caught and muck up the threads on the second pass.
> >>>>
> >>>> Was this steel or aluminium?
> >>>>
> >>>> What type of coolant are you using?
> >>>>
> >>>> Do you have an oil separator disk or belt and aeration to keep it
> >>>> from getting smelly?
> >>>>
> >>>> I did my 10-32 tapping at 150 RPM.  Still scary how fast it moves
> >>>> up
> >>
> >> and
> >>
> >>>> down.
> >>>>
> >>>> John
> >>>>
> >>>>> -Original Message-
> >>>>> From: andrew beck [mailto:andrewbeck0...@gmail.com]
> >>>>> Sent: August-09-21 1:20 PM
> >>>>> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> >>>>> Subject: [Emc-users] Just a little rigid Tapping Clip. With peck
> >>
> >> tapping
> >>
> >>>>> M14x2 spiral flute tap.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Rpm 400
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Pecking 15mm.total depth 35
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I can turn main power off at the wall and it will re line up
> >>>>> with
> >>
> >> tapped
> >>
> >>>>> threads so long as I leave it in the vice.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That's so cool.  Love linuxcnc
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Might try a m20 tap sometime.  I have 7.5kw spindle.  Be
> >>>>> interesting
> >>
> >> to
> >>
> >>>> see
> >>>>
> >>>>> if it can push it lol
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://youtu.be/6QX2Qm3I2Ak
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ___
> >>>>> Emc-users mailing list
> >>>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >>>>
> >>>> ___
> >>>> Emc-users mailing list
> >>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> Emc-users mailing list
> >>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > ___
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>
> Peter Wallace
> Mesa Electronics
>
> (\__/)
> (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
> (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.
>
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] Machine safety, Emergency stop <-> Normal stop

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 10 August 2021 08:41:46 John Figie wrote:

> What you describe is one way to achieve functional safety, but many
> modern drives now have functional safety built in so that power does
> not have to be removed using a relay. This allows for faster restart
> after a stop as the control electronics in the drive remains powers.
> Also this allows the drive to incorporate more advanced stopping and
> monitoring safety functions for the axis.
>
> John Figie

So far John, I have not found any of the new generation of 
stepper-servo's, the 3 phase in particular, and which I think are the 
next big thing in steppers, to have any method of recovery from a fault 
but a powerdown reset.

If you know of any that have a reset input, in that stepper/servo  
category, please advise. If its tied to the generally unused enable 
input, IDK as its not been documented anyplace I've read.

In my usage so far, I have used the FAULT output as an F2 reset, and that 
cycles ALL machine power since I switch ALL machine power with SSR's 
triggered from motion-enabled. The machine then has to be re-homed of 
course since the home for the faulted axis has been lost by the drivers 
own output stage disable.

The reason I think these are the next big thing is the power efficiency. 
Output drive currant to the motor is scaled by the encoder error. So 
they use only enough power to move the load.

I have designed and 3d printed, a 30/1 harmonic drive for small servos's, 
and have had one life testing on the kitchen counter, turning the A axis 
from my 6040 mill, at about .001 rpm to around 10 for nearly a month 
now. The drive is now well "broken in" as I've also had it running at 
about 10 rpm for short periods of time, and the 1 nm motor is at room 
temperature right now, zero detectable heating. Except for an idler to 
tension the drive belt, it is complete and ready to go back on my 6040.

A normal stepper would be just short of burn your hand hot.  That is 
power that doesn't spin the power meter and you get billed for.

[...]

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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[Emc-users] Smallish Harmonic drive promo

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 12 August 2021 11:25:37 you wrote:

> > and my life test has died. But I'm still pleased, its been running
> > for weeks non stop. So I'll knock it apart to see what broke, and
> > see if I can make a better one. But the fact that it ran for as long
> > as it did tells  me I am on the right track. :)
>
> It is sweet when a plan comes together.

Serial #3 is now running on the kitchen counter, using the innards that 
survived from #1, with the armature shunk 1mm and that space used to 
make a stronger bearing that broke. The file master.scad has been 
updated to reflect the changes after doing the autopsy on serial #1, and 
a matching README composed for my web page announcing it. Under 
Genes-os9-stf as master.scad and master.scad-README.

Enjoy, I have one of those ear to ear grins. :)

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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[Emc-users] For Chris Albertson, question on bltouch

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings;

I'm in the process of rebuilding the hot end of a failed CR10-S Pro V2, 
as the hot end supplied with cannot long tolerate PETG temps. Its too 
hot for the capriorn tubing when it goes all the way to the butt end of 
the nozzle.

The E3D based stuff claims to goto 300-350C, and there is such an all 
metal hot end on the prusa Mk3S, and after refitting a new heat break, 
its working with PETG quite well.

Haldis is making a volcano version of an E3D hot end, and selling the 
whole kit for $40 on amazon.

I've designed, and am printiing the final fine tuned copy of a mount that 
fits on top of that, to support the Sherpa extruder driver, one of the 
lightest direct drives extant. So that will be assembled on the carriage 
in another 45 minutes.

That leaves 2 open bolt holes above the side fans and the ones on the 
left could use used to fix the BLTouch in a similar position to where it 
was originaly. The BLTouch is the std nylon stinger model. But the 
volcano head is around 5 to 8mm taller than a stock hot end, meaing the 
BLTouch needs lowered by that amount.

What I need is the measurement from the base of the BLTouch, to the glass 
bed surface at the point of the BLTouchs triggering.  Do you know of 
someplace (a URL) with drawings that define that distance? That would 
speed the design of a mounting for it in openscad by at least a day.

Thanks Chris.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] For Chris Albertson, question on bltouch

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 19 August 2021 13:02:28 Rob C wrote:

> https://grabcad.com/library/bl-touch-for-3d-printers-1
>
> https://www.geeetech.com/wiki/index.php/3DTouch_Auto_Leveling_Sensor
>
> any use?
>
Not too, trip point isn't listed, but I did a web search and found a 
drawing that did have it. Then I made a swag in openscad and made a 
mount that should trip when the nozzle is around a mm above the glass if 
I measured everything right.  But that wiped out my back, and I hit LJS 
for dinner. Tomorrow I'll remount the carriage, and start sorting the 
umbilical cable. Thats a bit complex on a CR10-S Pro V2 as they have a 
separate junction board on the left end of the X carriage rail. If its 
not better labeled than most, that will be a basket of rattlesnakes to 
sort. And its been about 4 months since I took it apart. :-(

Thanks for the effort Chris, it is appreciated.

> On Thu, 19 Aug 2021 at 17:14, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > Greetings;
> >
> > I'm in the process of rebuilding the hot end of a failed CR10-S Pro
> > V2, as the hot end supplied with cannot long tolerate PETG temps.
> > Its too hot for the capriorn tubing when it goes all the way to the
> > butt end of the nozzle.
> >
> > The E3D based stuff claims to goto 300-350C, and there is such an
> > all metal hot end on the prusa Mk3S, and after refitting a new heat
> > break, its working with PETG quite well.
> >
> > Haldis is making a volcano version of an E3D hot end, and selling
> > the whole kit for $40 on amazon.
> >
> > I've designed, and am printiing the final fine tuned copy of a mount
> > that fits on top of that, to support the Sherpa extruder driver, one
> > of the lightest direct drives extant. So that will be assembled on
> > the carriage in another 45 minutes.
> >
> > That leaves 2 open bolt holes above the side fans and the ones on
> > the left could use used to fix the BLTouch in a similar position to
> > where it was originaly. The BLTouch is the std nylon stinger model.
> > But the volcano head is around 5 to 8mm taller than a stock hot end,
> > meaing the BLTouch needs lowered by that amount.
> >
> > What I need is the measurement from the base of the BLTouch, to the
> > glass bed surface at the point of the BLTouchs triggering.  Do you
> > know of someplace (a URL) with drawings that define that distance?
> > That would speed the design of a mounting for it in openscad by at
> > least a day.
> >
> > Thanks Chris.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
> > respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
> > Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
> >
> >
> > _______
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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[Emc-users] splicing teeny wires

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings all;

I am converting a Creatlity CR10-S Pro v2 3d printer to a 350C capable 
volcano version of the E3D V6 hot end.

Which means I have quite a slew of stuff to splice, probably in that box 
of the left end of the X carriage. But generally, insulated splices have 
not shrunk in 65 years.

I have one of those 4 jaw crimping tools that goes down to quite small 
stuff but I think its made for teeny gage bare tubing like Hilichi stuff 
and would probably pierce the jacket on this splice:

<https://www.ebay.com/itm/390629743508?_trkparms=aid%3D1110002%26algo%3DSPLICE.SOI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D233198%26meid%3D80b5051cdfab468899d391b72c2e417d%26pid%3D101196%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D290952356482%26itm%3D390629743508%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DPromotedSellersOtherItemsV2WithMLRv3&_trksid=p2047675.c101196.m2219&amdata=cksum%3A39062974350880b5051cdfab468899d391b72c2e417d%7Cenc%3AAQAGAAABACtrZQ7uyU6NyRWMuc0OogoSa%252FUIDys%252F02w7jR10vOAtqMWPMvUBy6zzURpE8MjiCMTi6DgxxzvpD7iVSzJu8kvcZJZt4or%252Fa0xNRt86VxZQtHfiTjHy6BuxnZxXAupqTuSeGfkfcGVmv1BN3DUXQpudR31aCwMHJdRFc4KK5umNoYX1Ip1n21fqZ7jd%252BVYvIrJuQIfgC98ZJV0GBU4TuPrvS1gwa%252BI11X3QC4%252FWTmwG0LllfLTLnPvFBZEO%252BSS9flJVcF92B%252FQCGx6tngkE0upULNQnwWhgdiAVwZF8jbFqfEnkhcoe8z6zcTb7J2Vx2HAtRivwV3%252FZjJ%252BBXO9NDkM%253D%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2047675&epid=1751148278>

So what crimp tool would serve to do a fine job of crimping that 
connector while leaving the insulation intact?

If you know of an even smaller splice, and the tool for it, I'd sure 
appreciate being advised.

Thank you.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] Missing Features in LCNC for FFF/FDM Printers

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 20 August 2021 09:15:30 Sven Wesley wrote:

> Den mån 26 juli 2021 kl 01:35 skrev :
> > There are addins now that post process gcode to convert line
> > segments to G2/G3.
>
> Yes! ArcWelder is extremely good at this! Can be used as a console app
> or as a plugin directly in OctoPrint if you fancy that. I use it all
> the time and not only will you get smaller files, the printer operates
> so much smoother and at a faster pace.
> Highly recommended!
> https://github.com/FormerLurker/ArcWelderLib
> https://github.com/FormerLurker/ArcWelderPlugin
>
> Regards,
> Sven

I have installed in the latest cura, but need to test it better than I 
have. Probably would not work well for harmonic drives.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] splicing teeny wires

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 20 August 2021 10:50:29 andy pugh wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Aug 2021 at 14:53, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > If you know of an even smaller splice, and the tool for it, I'd sure
> > appreciate being advised.
>
> When space is tight I use solder and heat-shrink.

I do too Andy, but there might be 30 such joints in a 2" cube so I need 
something really miniature. Too many times the heat shrink has slid off. 
After seeing how prusa makes an umbilical cord out of theirs, with good 
anchoring on both ends, and the creality haveing very poor anchoring, as 
in none on the carriage originally, I'm trying to improve it a bit at 
the same time. The CR10-S Pro V2 does very nice work, for about half an 
hour at PETG temps, then starts leaking because the hot end of the 
capricorn bowden tube is going away. So I'm putting a volcano version of 
the E3D V6 hotend on it, with a Sherpa direct drive on top of the 
volcano. Had to design and make a mount, for both that and the BLTouch. 
OPenscad feeding to a MK3S Prusa makes that easy peasy.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] splicing teeny wires

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 20 August 2021 11:55:35 Roland Jollivet wrote:

> Hi Gene
>
> I don't know if you know about these splicers. Mostly used for
> telephone wire. You can see what's going on, and any pliers will do
> the trick, but they're not 'in-line'
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Connector-Uvital-Waterproof-Gel-Filled-Connecto
>rs/dp/B07Z7NY6BN
>
Yes, but I could fill that 2x2 box & still have a few hanging out. So I 
need to find something smaller.

Thank you Roland.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] splicing teeny wires

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 20 August 2021 13:55:31 andy pugh wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Aug 2021 at 16:43, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> >  Too many times the heat shrink has slid off.
>
> You can get heat-shrink with hot-melt glue inside. That doesn't slide
> off.
Now thats a better idea. I will see if I can source some of that.  Thanks 
Andy.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] splicing teeny wires

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 20 August 2021 14:06:07 Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Friday 20 August 2021 13:55:31 andy pugh wrote:
> > On Fri, 20 Aug 2021 at 16:43, Gene Heskett 
>
> wrote:
> > >  Too many times the heat shrink has slid off.
> >
> > You can get heat-shrink with hot-melt glue inside. That doesn't
> > slide off.
>
> Now thats a better idea. I will see if I can source some of that. 
> Thanks Andy.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett

But Lowes didn't have any that I could find, but I did find a couple 25 
packs of the teeniest telephone splice. IDC, will probably outlast me...

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] splicing teeny wires

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 20 August 2021 21:43:10 Chris Albertson wrote:

> West Marine carries the 3X shrink, glue lined tube.   WM is a big
> chain of marine hardware stores and if looking for any low-volt
> electrical stuff, they have the best and most expensive stuff.   Near
> me the are like Starbuks, one on every corner I can walk to one by my
> house.
> westmarine.com/buy/ancor--adhesive-lined-heat-shrink-tubing
> <https://www.westmarine.com/buy/ancor--adhesive-lined-heat-shrink-tubi
>ng-alt--P009_275_003_003?recordNum=7>
>

Bookmarked. Thanks. Nearest is 173 miles, over in Virginia, over roads 
that would break a copperheads back. But online ordering looks ok.

> But for those who don't live by a harbor, Amazon has it also and with
> free next=day Prime delivery

> amazon.com/Ginsco-270Pcs-Shrink-Adhesive-Tubing
> <https://www.amazon.com/Ginsco-270Pcs-Shrink-Adhesive-Tubing/dp/B073R6
>9KNB/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=glue+lined+heat+shrink&qid=1629509293
>&sr=8-4>
I hadn't looked there, ordered the big kit.  Thanks.
>
> I just checked McMaster Carr and I must sethey have the most
> impressive line of shrink tube, At least two dozen different kinds.  
> This stuff comes in handy for robot building.  I keep a big assortment
> of it in my parts drawers
>
>  But Amazon's prime next-day delivery is hard to beat
>
> On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 5:39 PM Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > On Friday 20 August 2021 14:06:07 Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > On Friday 20 August 2021 13:55:31 andy pugh wrote:
> > > > On Fri, 20 Aug 2021 at 16:43, Gene Heskett
> > > > 
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > > >  Too many times the heat shrink has slid off.
> > > >
> > > > You can get heat-shrink with hot-melt glue inside. That doesn't
> > > > slide off.
> > >
> > > Now thats a better idea. I will see if I can source some of that.
> > > Thanks Andy.
> > >
> > > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> >
> > But Lowes didn't have any that I could find, but I did find a couple
> > 25 packs of the teeniest telephone splice. IDC, will probably
> > outlast me...
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
> > respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
> > Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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[Emc-users] It took nearly 2 years, but I found it!

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings all;

The default desktop, xfce4, of our buster installer, steals the F10 key 
to bring up the terminals menu pulldown. But for an old hand that's a 
pain in the ass because it nakes you hunt up the mouse and click on the 
F10 button to quit mc. And it is not in the /etc/xfce4 keyboard related 
menu's anyplace so is not easily found and turned off.

Its actually in the terminal preferences, with a default of on and you 
have to checkmark it to turn it off. So now I can use mc from the 
command line.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] It took nearly 2 years, but I found it!

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 22 August 2021 01:06:24 dva...@internode.on.net wrote:

>  On 21.08.21 08:50, Gene Heskett wrote:
>   > The default desktop, xfce4, of our buster installer, steals the
> F10 key
>   > to bring up the terminals menu pulldown. But for an old hand
> that's a
>   > pain in the ass because it nakes you hunt up the mouse and click
> on the
>   > F10 button to quit mc. And it is not in the /etc/xfce4 keyboard
> related
>   > menu's anyplace so is not easily found and turned off.
>   >
>   > Its actually in the terminal preferences, with a default of on
> and you
>   > have to checkmark it to turn it off. So now I can use mc from the
>   > command line.
>
>   Many thanks, Gene, for the pointer. I've just used that to clobber
> its
>   hijacking of F1 as well, as I use that in Vim, and Mutt uses it for
> its
>   manual. Not that I've been using xfce-terminal until
> (coincidentally)
>   trying it out half an hour ago. The old-fashioned xterms I use
> don't
>   hijack function keys, so I haven't had the problem. However, even
> using:
>   XTERM="/usr/bin/xterm -u8" doesn't ensure it displays all utf8
> characters,
>   which is distinctly annoying. (Recently, `'` and `-` in list posts
> have
>   been rendering as small squares when arriving as two-byte
> characters for
>   some reason.)
>   
>
>   Now I'm tossing up whether to invest time in finding an xterm utf8
> fix,
>   or fixing the other problem with xfce-term; --color-text=yellow
> shows as
>   orange, which contrasts poorly with --color-bg=darkslategrey . Add
> that
>   the colours in xfce-term are washed-out, and I'm wondering if it's
>   worth pursuing. (Having used those xterm colours since SunOS
> 4.1.3,  back in the 1990s, I'm disinclined to change for no good
> reason.)
>
>   Ah, uxterm is better; it handles `'` and `-`better ... but not
> everything.It also handles the classical options: uxterm -bg
> darkslategrey -fg yellow
>  
>
> Erik
>
I am rather a rabid fan of two terminal proggy's.

Old kde, now tde's "konsole", and xfce4's default terminal. Except for 
the key stealing in xfce4, which is enough to upset the Pope, both have 
decent color choices and don't go out of their way to miss-treat utf-8 
charsets. My guess is that neither one, treat other languages full of 
chars only available from the alt + keystrokes well.

A native english speaker's (me) alphabet does not use the alt keys except 
for the old DEC's using them as alternate control keys, I once had some 
fun making a coco3 talk like it was a VT-220. I re-wrote a VT-100 
program to do it because the only VT-220 in the whole station ate its 
h.o.t. and DEC didn't have the h.o.t. and wanted around 3 thou for a new 
VT-540 terminal.  Dec went w/o that sale, and the PDP-11/23a it ran self 
destructed the whole CBS affiliate Satellite controls by crashing 
multiple times a day.  And DEC couldn't fix it. Changed everything it it 
except the frame rail bearing its serial number. So it got replaced by 
an IBM, on CBS's dime, which sat there and ran for the next decade.

Anyway, I'm glad I finally found it, and that its helped somebody else 
now.

Take care Erik.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] New zero backlash gearbox

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 26 August 2021 17:57:09 Ralph Stirling wrote:

> This might inspire some of you.
>
> https://www.wittenstein-us.com/zero-backlash-galaxie-gearbox/
>
> -- Ralph

That looks like an excedrin headache to try and print.

IMO, this is designed to get around any patents that might still exist, 
and would need far more precise a make and high priced steels.

But I still think the loose belt is a better idea. But get rid of the 
separate and expensive ball bearings and make the armature itself 
eccentric, wrapping it in a dual row, printed in plastic bearing using 
crosman bb's for balls is working moderately well for me.  And it will 
be strongest when the splines are worn to fit each other. What I am fine 
tuning right now, and may have to resort to a smaller nozzle to print 
it, is a new preloaded fit that when broke in, still has zero backlash. 
But one of them has now been running on my kitchen counter for a month 
at about 20 rpm output, 600 at the motor, with no noise and no breakage, 
with a 1NM motor turning it. But it can't be done in PLA, must have the 
more flexible PETG. And that eliminates any printer not using at least 
an E3D V6 or better hot end, I now have 5 printers tossed in the corner, 
which claimed to be able to use PETG. Once maybe, but not a full spool 
of it.

>
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-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: [Emc-users] New zero backlash gearbox

[Gene Heskett]

e. The extruder is not direct but it's all metal and the hotend
> reaches 260º. I just changed the firmware to the latest Marlin and
> activated the manual mesh levelling to get better adhesion. Also I
> made a quick enclosure for it with polycarbonate and put a resistor
> inside to heat the chamber to 60º C. I'm priting ABS with a 1 mm
> nozzle pretty well. Tried nylon and had some success with small parts
> but horrible warping with large parts (also at 60º C on the chamber).

I bought a roll of polyprop, but even magigoo could not make it stick to 
anything.

Take care yourself, Leonardo.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] jerk control

[Gene Heskett]

t; > > >  > > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > The idea can be implemented in C and for simple cases like 1D
> >
> > funktions
> >
> > > > > it should be fairly straight-forward.
> > > >
> > > > My point is that the kinematics modules already exist, and  not
> > > > all of them are under our control. Various users’ machines are
> > > > out there with their own custom kinematics.
> > > > Also, AFAIK if they are kernel modules then they have to be
> > > > written in
> >
> > C.
> >
> > > > Hence my suggestion of calling the kinematics function
> > > > repeatedly to perform simple numerical differentiation.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ___
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> > > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > --
> >
> > Chris Albertson
> > Redondo Beach, California
> >
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] torque mode tuning yaskawa servo drives

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 01 September 2021 08:33:41 Todd Zuercher wrote:

> I have no experience tuning one of those drives.  (but my experience
> with torque mode was less than wonderful.)  Just curious was your
> machine a retro fit that was originally equipped with those drives, or
> is it a new install of these drives?  Were the drives velocity loops
> tuned for your machine before you tried to use them?  If they weren't
> properly tuned for velocity command input on your machine it isn't
> surprising that they may not work well in that mode.  (While I haven't
> tuned those drives for Linuxcnc, I do have a machine that uses them
> with another control in I assumed velocity mode, I just haven't had to
> mess with them.)
>
> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street 
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>

Breaking thread: Neither have I Todd.

But our wiki doesn't seem to have anything like an educational discussion 
of the different "modes" of setting up a servo given the tools linuxcnc 
offers.

For instance, the servo I designed to run that BS-1 clone is slow as can 
be because I had to put a limit3 in series with a direction change in 
order to prevent it from using reversal as a brake, it must be allowed 
to run down to zero before a reversal since if reverse is used before it 
stops, the current surge crowbars a 400 watt supply, shutting it down 
for a cooling recovery of around 2 minutes. And it actually does get hot 
in that millisecond or so of reverse. I haven't killed the supply, but 
its sure scary when it happens. Because the peak speed must be so 
restricted, the working response speed is less than 10% of the speeds 
its capable of. If it has to home from halfway around, it takes longer 
to home it than all 3 of the machines other axises in sequence.

The wiki needs more attention to the education of the new bee so as to 
educate the worker bee better.

I'll get me coat now.

> -Original Message-
> From: andrew beck 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2021 2:16 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
>  Subject: Re: [Emc-users] torque mode
> tuning yaskawa servo drives
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
>
> hey everyone
>
> got good news to report back here!
>
> i changed to torque tuning and its like 10 times better than velocity
> tuning in these drives
>
> someone one the forum said that he was starting to suspect that the
> velocity tuning on the yaskawa drives was really that bad so they
> allowed a torque feedforward setting to fix it lol
>
> anyway my initial findings were torque control is awesome
>
> i will post back later with more tuning findings
>
> regards
>
> Andrew
>
> On Mon, Aug 30, 2021 at 2:57 PM andrew beck 
>
> wrote:
> > hey everyone
> >
> > i am trying to tune my yaskawa sigma 1 series servo drive at the
> > moment and thinking about using torque mode for tuning.
> >
> > currently the process is auto tune drives to a rigidity setting and
> > then control drives with velocity reference in linuxcnc.  I am not
> > getting the most amazing control and any P value over 8 means the
> > drive starts vibrating.  i have tried a range of rigidity settings
> > in servo drive
> >
> > i have never set up linuxcnc to control torque mode and just
> > wondering if what the correct way is?  is it the same as velocity
> > control in terms of the pid loops and hal layer?  or is there
> > another whole level of stuff i need to do
> >
> > and i saw that i needed to speed up the servo thread a bit to get
> > better performance if using torque mode
> >
> > anyway let me know your experiences
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Andrew
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping with geared encoder

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 03 September 2021 11:29:55 andy pugh wrote:

> I have just advised someone on the forum that he needs a 1ppr index to
> rigid tap, as his encoder is mounted to the motor, not to the spindle.
>
> But then I started wondering if this is technically correct. I have a
> feeling that single=pass rigid tapping will be fine, but mutli-pass
> won't work?
>
> Has anyone tried this?

I am doing it on the G0704, encoder is on the spindle motor but I do use 
multipass for threading on 1/4" and bigger taps, so my index IS from the 
spindle. This does result in some huge scale settings, wnich I switch with a 
gear shift tally switches but that doesn't seem to bother LinuxCNC.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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Re: [Emc-users] Subroutine error about duplicate O-word label

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 06 September 2021 15:38:12 Chris Radek wrote:

> Canned cycles work in all six planes, XY YZ ZX UV VW WU
>
> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.8/html/gcode/g-code.html#gcode:g80-g89

And I can verify that rigid tapping works with the head laid level and 
using X instead of Z, in fact it works better because then it is not 
subject to my g0704's crooked post!

> On Mon, Sep 06, 2021 at 07:44:42AM +0100, Andy Pugh wrote:
> > I think that both can work, actually. Probably worth experimenting
> > in a sim.
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] Serial Port access

[Gene Heskett]

Dammeyer < 
<mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com> jo...@autoartisans.com> wrote:
> > > > I've been reading
> > > >  <http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/hal_comp.html>
> > > > http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/hal_comp.html
> > >
> > > For this application I think that a Python userspace component
> > > using Pyserial is probably the easier approach.
> > >
> > >  <http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.8/html/hal/halmodule.html>
> > > http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.8/html/hal/halmodule.html
> > >
> > > --
> > > atp


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] Serial Port access

[Gene Heskett]

lt;= xor2.1.out => timedelay.3.in
# make speed timer oscillator
6040-5i25-7i76-rs485.hal:net mister-out  <= timedelay.3.out => xor2.1.in1

and:

loadrt timedelaycount=4 #.3 is mist motor timer
loadrt xor2 count=2 #.1 one is mist-ctl
6040-5i25-7i76-rs485.hal:addf  timedelay.3  servo-thread 
# is mist oscillator
6040-5i25-7i76-rs485.hal:net osc-fdbck  <= xor2.1.out => timedelay.3.in
# make speed timer oscillator
6040-5i25-7i76-rs485.hal:net mister-out  <= timedelay.3.out => xor2.1.in1

The xor2.1 is the on-off switch for te oscillator, interrupting the 
feedback path when the mist button is off

Note too, that depending on what else you already have in the .hal file, 
the .number. may change.

> And I will 
> continue to post the code as it develops.  I'm already up to Rev 0.2
> now.  Moved the read routine outside the send routine as it was in the
> original serial code.   The CANUSB would signal buffer overruns
> because unless one of the outputs changed the function might not be
> called for hours.
>
> More as things progress.
> John

[...]

I think thats all of it. Cuss at me if its not.

Take care John.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
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Re: [Emc-users] Serial Port access

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 11 September 2021 13:33:30 John Dammeyer wrote:

> Hi Gene,
> On Vancouver Island so other end of the country and about 4 days by
> road if one is not driving 24/7.
>
> Thanks for the code fragment.  Very helpful.
>
> I do have two buttons
>
> #  Tag buttons 
> net remote-rapid-to-Z-home halui.mdi-command-16 <=
> pyvcp.rapid-to-Z-home net remote-rapid-to-XY-home halui.mdi-command-17
> <= pyvcp.rapid-to-XY-home
>
> And they are coupled to the system in the .INI file along with the
> pendant buttons as #16 and #17 in the list to create the G-Code for
> motion.
>
> [HALUI]
> # These are the commands for the HB04 and PyVCP screen buttons.
> # a halui hal pin is created for each MDI_COMMAND below
> # halui.mdi-command-00, halui.mdi-command-01,... etc
> #
> MDI_COMMAND=G0 X0 Y0 Z0
> MDI_COMMAND=(debug, example: mdi-01)
> MDI_COMMAND=(debug, example: mdi-02)
> #03 M110: clears notifications
> MDI_COMMAND=M110
> MDI_COMMAND=(debug, example: mdi-04)
> MDI_COMMAND=(debug, example: mdi-05)
> MDI_COMMAND=(debug, example: mdi-06)
> #07 M101: example print to stdout
> MDI_COMMAND=M101
> MDI_COMMAND=(debug, example: mdi-08)
> MDI_COMMAND=(debug, example: mdi-09)
> MDI_COMMAND=(debug, example: mdi-10)
> MDI_COMMAND=(debug, example: mdi-11)
> #12 Set current physical X position to be 0
> MDI_COMMAND= G10 L20 P0 X0
> #13 Set current physical Y position to be 0
> MDI_COMMAND= G10 L20 P0 Y0
> #14 Set current physical Z position to be 0
> MDI_COMMAND= G10 L20 P0 Z0
> #15 Set current physical A position to be 0
> MDI_COMMAND= G10 L20 P0 A0
> # 16 pyVCP button Full speed to Z0
> MDI_COMMAND= G0 Z0
> MDI_COMMAND= G0 X0 Y0
>
> If I understand the HAL file code then your mister is totally
> controlled by the slider.  No simple button for ON/OFF?

On/Off is the mister checkmark. Perhaps my grepping failed?
try this:
gene@sixty40:~/linuxcnc/configs/6040-5i25-7i76-rs485$ grep mist *
6040-5i25-7i76-rs485.hal:loadrt xor2 count=2 #2nd one is mist-ctl
6040-5i25-7i76-rs485.hal:loadrt and2 names=and-prb1,and-prb2,mist-ctl
6040-5i25-7i76-rs485.hal:addf  xor2.1servo-thread # turns mister on/off
6040-5i25-7i76-rs485.hal:addf  timedelay.3   servo-thread # mist oscillator
6040-5i25-7i76-rs485.hal:# output for coolant-mist air ctrl - WORKS! Valve coil 
gets HOT
6040-5i25-7i76-rs485.hal:net mist-on <= iocontrol.0.coolant-mist => 
hm2_5i25.0.7i76.0.0.output-01 <--this one?
6040-5i25-7i76-rs485.hal:# turns on tool mister air valv, and supplies pump 12 
volts
6040-5i25-7i76-rs485.hal:net mist-on => xor2.1.in0  # turn on pump motor speed 
control
6040-5i25-7i76-rs485.hal:net mister-out  <= timedelay.3.out => xor2.1.in1
6040-5i25-7i76-rs485.hal:net mister-out  => hm2_5i25.0.gpio.024.out # to pump 
pwr control

That whole thing:

#***
# output for coolant-mist air ctrl - WORKS! Valve coil gets HOT
net mist-on <= iocontrol.0.coolant-mist => hm2_5i25.0.7i76.0.0.output-01
# turns on tool mister air valv, and supplies pump 12 volts
net mist-on => xor2.1.in0  # turn on pump motor speed control
net osc-fdbck  <= xor2.1.out => timedelay.3.in # make speed timer oscillator
setp hm2_5i25.0.gpio.024.is_output true
net mister-out  <= timedelay.3.out => xor2.1.in1
net mister-out  => hm2_5i25.0.gpio.024.out # to pump pwr control
# note, get pump power from output of relay driven by 1st line above.
# Otherwise pump runs when lcnc off/ stopped/shut down
#*******

that should help.

Take care, John
> > Note too, that depending on what else you already have in the .hal
> > file, the .number. may change.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 12 September 2021 17:49:43 Alan Condit wrote:

> I built a new controller for my 9x20 lathe using a 5i25/7i76 combo. I
> thought I had everything working but I still can’t get the spindle
> working correctly. I have a 1.5hp PMDC treadmill motor that I am
> controlling with a Cycletrol-150 DC controller. The am using the
> analog out from the 7i76 to replace the potentiometer to control the
> spindle speed. I have a 100 slot encoder with index (homemade) on the
> spindle.
>
> The spindle starts under LCNC control but I am not getting an “at
> speed indication” at above about 100rpm. The motor sounds like is is
> running at a steady speed but the Spindle Speed indicator fluctuates
> wildly. I am suspicious of the spindle encoder. Before I was just
> running it as a 100 count counter with index and it worked fine. I
> can’t figure out in PNCConf how to set up a spindle counter with index
> for the 7i76.
>
> Questions:
> Is it likely that my encoder is the problem?
> I don’t know how to adjust the detectors to be out of cycle by 90°?
> Any helpful hints? Should I just go back to the 100 slot counter?
> Should I replace my whole homemade encoder with a real commercial
> spindle encoder?

getting proper quadrature out of homemade stuff is a bear with 4 sore 
paws. I know, I done it about 3 times now. I would in your shoes do this 
which has worked really well here.

How many "gear shifts" do you have between the motor and the actual 
spindlle? You could probably do more than 2, but thats all the gears I 
have on my g0704. I have tally switches on that knob that tell linuxcnc 
what, if any, gear it is in. I have a sibgle screw glued to the side of 
the drawbar cap that is read by an ATS-667 hall effect device for the 
once per turn "index signal" to an encoder. Prowl ebay and get a cheap 
1000 line encoder for a $20 bill, and spin it with the back of the 
spindle motor shaft. It will be way to fast to get thru the average 
BoB's opto stuff, so you'll have to use one of the encoders in the 5i25, 
which can do that fast a signal or hack the BoB to remove them.  Feed 
the same encoder you are feedingthe index into with the outputs of this 
encoder
.
Not knowing the gear ratio in either gear, I hacked up a counter in hal 
that starts counting pulses from an encoder on the back of the spindle 
motor, counting them for 100 turns of the spindle as seen by the 
ATS-667, and freezing the count so you can read it with a hal-meter. 
Divide that count by 100 and you have the "SCALE" value for that gear. 
Repeat for the other gear. then use the tally switches and a mux to feed 
the correct SCALE into that input to linuxcnc. For my g0704, that scale 
is a hair over 7,000 in high gear, and a different hair over 14,000 in 
low gear. And with that high a scale, quantization noise flat 
disappears, allowing very high pid Pgain values, 20 or more for 
extremely stiff spindle speed control. I use the PICO pwm-servo amp, and 
the only time I can tell the spindle is loaded really heavily is when 
the iron in the motor starts squeaking as that 9.7 amp motor is being 
throttled at around 18 amps by the pwm-servo.  Thats about 2 hp from a 1 
hp rated motor, but its had 6 years to complain and hasn't, not even 
asking for fresh brushes. 

When you are ready, let me know and I'll pm you my hal files and such so 
you can cherry pick and use what you want.

Take care now Alan.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] Minimally printed rotary. Initial torque testing..

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 13 September 2021 06:00:25 Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users wrote:

> You almost sound disappointed that you couldn't break it. ;)

I noticed that too. I haven't broken my version but once, tried to make 
it from PLA, but I had a different idea because I wanted a smaller 
version, and I have the attitude that I can print another for 10 bucks 
worth of plastic and 3 bucks worth of bb's.  But since I switched to 
PETG, and that caused a few thou $ in printers to find one that could 
handle a steady diet of PETG, most can't. But PETG can make a very 
servicable loose belt as its lots more flexible than PLA. But in the 
interests of cheap, I didn't use an armature with off the shelf 
bearings. My armature is printed, including the hub which because the 
motor I chose has an 8mm shaft that I put on the 0704's table and ground 
the d-flat much wider, needs no alu or steel insert hub, the PETG as a 
press fit on the 8mm shaft has not failed. That armature is printed, and 
eccentric by 1.1mm. Its wrapped by two printed ball bearings, which in 
turn distort the loose belt in the same manner that Sam's much more 
expensive off the shelf bearings do. Probably with less flex stress on 
the loose belt because the push is fully distributed.

The drive I made is aimed at the A drive supplied with cheap gantry mills 
as the kit supplied has virtually zero holding power and 100x the rpms 
needed for such duties. Designed for a 30/1 ratio, and another nominally 
4/1 between it and the A axle, by way of a small pitch timing belt. Its 
a hair loose and needs a tensioner idler designed and built that I 
haven't found the round tuit to do yet.

I've had it running on the kitchen counter at about 3 rpm at the chuck 
for something over a month now. All except the bearing balls which are 
crosmann bb's, is 3d printed. Currently driven by a 1NM 3 phase 
stepper/servo, I think it will do the job on my 6040 mill. And if I 
break it, a $20 bill prints another. Its also got about an hours worth 
of running at just short of that small motors stall speed, 2000+ rpms 
for about a minute at a time so the armature bearings don't get too hot.  
At that speed, the bb's are probably spinning in the 100,000 rpms 
category.

The output end houseing and shaft only have 1 bearing,, another row of 
bb's, 75mm in diameter. There is more flex in the 3mm thick disk holding 
the output sprocket than anyplace else. It is less than 4" in diameter, 
and under 20mm thick not including the output sprocket, it is plenty 
strong enough to do _that_ job.
>
>On Sunday, September 12, 2021, 06:52:23 PM MDT, Sam Sokolik
>  wrote:
>
>  Small update
>
> https://youtu.be/eW1GGI55Epc
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-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

[Gene Heskett]

ps://www.cnczone.com/forums/servo-motors-drives/342836-uhu-servo
> >>-controller-build.html
> >>
> >>
> >> Similarly there are still some STMBL kits out there.  These can
> >> actually take the smart serial input from the MESA boards or
> >> step/dir.  I'm not sure that 0-10V was very implemented.
> >> https://www.pcbway.com/project/shareproject/stmbl_servo_motor_drive
> >>.html
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: "Peter C. Wallace" 
> >>
> >> I would first check the A/B phasing and symmetry by monitoring the
> >> A and B inputs with halscope when turning at a slow speed (say 100
> >> RPM or less) The pins to monitor would be:
> >>
> >> hm2_5i25.0.encoder.00.input-a
> >> hm2_5i25.0.encoder.00.input-b
> >>
> >> Ideally both A and B should be square waves (50% duty cycle)
> >> and have a 90 degree phase difference (A changes in the middle of B
> >> high and B low times and vice versa)
> >>
> >>
> >> Peter Wallace
> >> Mesa Electronics
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Gene Heskett 
> >>
> >> On Sunday 12 September 2021 17:49:43 Alan Condit wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> getting proper quadrature out of homemade stuff is a bear with 4
> >> sore paws. I know, I done it about 3 times now. I would in your
> >> shoes do this which has worked really well here.
> >>
> >> How many "gear shifts" do you have between the motor and the actual
> >> spindlle? You could probably do more than 2, but thats all the
> >> gears I have on my g0704. I have tally switches on that knob that
> >> tell linuxcnc what, if any, gear it is in. I have a single screw
> >> glued to the side of the drawbar cap that is read by an ATS-667
> >> hall effect device for the once per turn "index signal" to an
> >> encoder. Prowl ebay and get a cheap 1000 line encoder for a $20
> >> bill, and spin it with the back of the  motor shaft. It will be way
> >> to fast to get thru the average BoB's opto stuff, so you'll have to
> >> use one of the encoders in the 5i25, which can do that fast a
> >> signal or hack the BoB to remove them.  Feed the same encoder you
> >> are feedingthe index into with the outputs of this encoder .
> >> Not knowing the gear ratio in either gear, I hacked up a counter in
> >> hal that starts counting pulses from an encoder on the back of the
> >> spindle motor, counting them for 100 turns of the spindle as seen
> >> by the ATS-667, and freezing the count so you can read it with a
> >> hal-meter. Divide that count by 100 and you have the "SCALE" value
> >> for that gear. Repeat for the other gear. then use the tally
> >> switches and a mux to feed the correct SCALE into that input to
> >> linuxcnc. For my g0704, that scale is a hair over 7,000 in high
> >> gear, and a different hair over 14,000 in low gear. And with that
> >> high a scale, quantization noise flat disappears, allowing very
> >> high pid Pgain values, 20 or more for extremely stiff spindle speed
> >> control. I use the PICO pwm-servo amp, and the only time I can tell
> >> the spindle is loaded really heavily is when the iron in the motor
> >> starts squeaking as that 9.7 amp motor is being throttled at around
> >> 18 amps by the pwm-servo.  Thats about 2 hp from a 1 hp rated
> >> motor, but its had 6 years to complain and hasn't, not even asking
> >> for fresh brushes.
> >>
> >> When you are ready, let me know and I'll pm you my hal files and
> >> such so you can cherry pick and use what you want.
> >>
> >>
> >> Take care now Alan.
> >>
> >> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> >> --
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] Serial Port access

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 13 September 2021 18:11:44 John Dammeyer wrote:

> Hi Gene,
> I was able to use your pyvcp information along with the web documents
> to get my own slider working. In the CAN message screen grab you can
> see id=218, dlc=4, and the first two bytes representing 0x0032 in
> Little Endian format.  That value in decimal is 50. Scale screen grab
> shows the slider set at 50.  Drag the slider back and forth and the
> CAN message changes. And on the scope the screen shot shows 5V.  Drag
> the slider back and forth and the voltage trace changes amplitude. 
> That voltage is based on the received CANopen message sent from the
> slider on the Pi4 LCNC. Thanks again for your help.
> John Dammeyer
>
NP John, glad I could help.

Take care now.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 13 September 2021 18:20:17 Alan Condit wrote:

> Update, I found some old photos of the motor’s id plate. I thought it
> was rated at 6000 rpm at 110 volts, but it was really only 3000rpm at
> 110volts. When I adjusted the maximum rpm in PNCConf, suddenly I was
> getting a solid “At Speed” indicator.
>
> John,
>I will still try measuring the analog voltage at various rpms and
> if I can get at it I will measure the DC voltage out.
>
> Peter,
> Thanks for the suggestion about the encoder phasing, I don’t think
> it was going to work without fixing that.
>
> Gene,
>  Could you go ahead and send me your configs. I can have a
> jackshaft driven by toothed belt with a 3 step pulley or a pair of
> three step pulleys on the motor and spindle. So six possible gearing
> combinations.
>
I'll tarball that whole config directory and send it by PM.

But, even with 6 speeds, you are belt driven so there will be an unk 
amount of belt slippage.  So if turning a spindle, the random slippage 
will probably trash any holes you try to to rigid tap. The bare minimum 
still needs a once per rev index pulse from the spindle.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] SPI sub-driver for hostmot2

[Gene Heskett]

(Output)
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 018 (P1-37): StepGen #3, pin Step (Output)
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 019 (P1-39): StepGen #3, pin Direction 
(Output)
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 020 (P1-41): PWMGen #0, pin Out0 (PWM or Up) 
(Output)
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 021 (P1-43): PWMGen #0, pin Out1 (Dir or Down) 
(Output)
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 022 (P1-45): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 023 (P1-47): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 024 (P2-01): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 025 (P2-03): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 026 (P2-05): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 027 (P2-07): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 028 (P2-09): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 029 (P2-11): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 030 (P2-13): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 031 (P2-15): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 032 (P2-17): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 033 (P2-19): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 034 (P2-21): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 035 (P2-23): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 036 (P2-25): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 037 (P2-27): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 038 (P2-29): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 039 (P2-31): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 040 (P2-33): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 041 (P2-35): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 042 (P2-37): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 043 (P2-39): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 044 (P2-41): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 045 (P2-43): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 046 (P2-45): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 047 (P2-47): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 048 (P3-01): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 049 (P3-03): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 050 (P3-05): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 051 (P3-07): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 052 (P3-09): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 053 (P3-11): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 054 (P3-13): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 055 (P3-15): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 056 (P3-17): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 057 (P3-19): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 058 (P3-21): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 059 (P3-23): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 060 (P3-25): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 061 (P3-27): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 062 (P3-29): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 063 (P3-31): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 064 (P3-33): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 065 (P3-35): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 066 (P3-37): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 067 (P3-39): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 068 (P3-41): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 069 (P3-43): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 070 (P3-45): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: IO Pin 071 (P3-47): IOPort
hm2/hm2_7i90.0: registered
MOTION: setting Traj cycle time to 100 nsecs
MOTION: setting Servo cycle time to 100 nsecs
note: MAXV max: 2.000 units/sec 120.000 units/min
note: LJOG max: 2.000 units/sec 120.000 units/min
note: LJOG default: 1.350 units/sec 81.000 units/min
note: jog_order='ZX'
note: jog_invert={'X'}


> Yes I know that the distance that SPI works over is limited, but on
> the other hand it is a pretty simple interface and the data rates can
> easily be 10Mbits/sec if limited to short distances like 10 - 20 cm.

My data cable is about 1.6". I mounted the r-pi upside down so its a 
straight shot from the 44pin pi header to the 26 pin socket on the 
7i90HD. No cable twists needed.

> Regards,
>
> John Figie
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] SPI sub-driver for hostmot2

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 14 September 2021 18:44:06 John Figie wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 3:44 PM Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > On Tuesday 14 September 2021 15:36:49 John Figie wrote:
> > > So I am still curious if connecting some device to a Mesa Anything
> > > I/O board such as the 7I80 using SPI is easy or difficult to do.
> > >
> > > I see that there was some work proposed for a SPI sub-driver for
> > > hostmot2
> > > <http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?SPI_Sub-Driver_For_Hostm
> > >ot2> but maybe not much has changed since this was added to the
> > > wiki.
> > >
> > > my understanding is that this would work for some SPI
> > > communications between a card like a 7I80 and some device. The
> > > driver would allow a user to configure the SPI comms for the
> > > number of SPI channels and the amount of data frames transferred
> > > with each request.
> > >
> > > I see that some I/O boards already use SPI communications, along
> > > with discrete I/O such as the 7I65. So I suppose one could make a
> > > device that uses the SPI interface and pretends to be the DACs
> > > from a 7I65, but that would be kind of limited as the
> > > communications is probably just output only.
> >
> > No, your info, and the wiki are out of date, its 2 way using the
> > rpspi.ko driver since about 4 years back up the log and in my case.
> > a 7i90HD card, buffered and protected by a trio of 7i42TA's which in
> > addition to gobbling up noise that can destroy the fpga in the
> > 7i90HD, supplies those ultra handy little green screw terminals to
> > wire it all up with.
>
> Yes I saw the rpspi to 7I90 but that is not what I was asking about. I
> could be wrong but isn't the proposed spi sub driver referring to an
> spi interface between an anything I/O card and some device? By device
> I mean some I/O device like a servo drive or an ADC or whatever and
> there could be multiple SPI interfaces available. I am not using a rp4
> but maybe I should be. I am using a PC but I did add another NIC so I
> have several Ethernet ports and I want just a single Ethernet port as
> my interface to my machine I/O.
>
Then the 7c80 is probably the right cup of tea for you. The ethernet port 
replaces the spi port. But talk to Peter, he is the expert on what his 
cards can do. 

> > My rpi4 is sending 32 bit packets to the 7i90 over an spi bus at
> > about 41 megabaud, and getting data back from the 7i90HD at 25
> > megabaud. The rpi3 before it did the same. Doing it with the 7i90HD,
> > my rpi4's ethernet port is still free, so that pi is just another
> > address on my home private network, which is NATted from my internet
> > address, so I can carve steel with a converted 1950 vintage Sheldon
> > lathe and browse the world with firefox at the same time if I want
> > to. I could do that with a pi3b but you could hear the lathe stumble
> > a bit now and then.
> >
> > > But what about the 7I46? Is that I/O card supported by LinuxCNC in
> > > some way? How are the SPI ports configured?
> >
> > Don't know anything about the 7i46, you'll have to ask Peter C.
> > Wallace, who I think is reading these lists.
> >
> > > Is there still interest in the SPI sub-diver for hosmot2? Has the
> > > community moved on to better ways to interface to other devices?
> >
> > The rpspi.ko driver, by a Swedish Uni prof named Bertho Stultans,
> > was contributed to LinuxCNC several years ago, and has been updated
> > at least twice since. It Just Works if you follow the cabling
> > instructions. Effectively the spi disappears and all ypu see at lcnc
> > launch is the cards registration, which looks like this:
> >
> > hm2_rpspi: ERROR: Failed to execute '/sbin/rmmod spi_bcm2835'
> > hm2_rpspi: Platform: Raspberry Pi 4 Model B Rev 1.1
> > hm2_rpspi: Base address 0xfe00 size 0x0180
> > hm2_rpspi: Mapped peripherals from 0xfe00 (size 0x0180) to
> > gpio:0x0xb430, spi:0x0xb4304000, aux:0x0xb4315000
> > hm2_rpspi: SPI0/CE0 clock rate: 41666000/2500 Hz, VPU clock
> > rate: 5 Hz
> > hm2_rpspi: SPI0/CE0 write clock rate calculated: 4166 Hz
> > (clkdiv=12) hm2_rpspi: SPI0/CE0 read clock rate calculated: 2500
> > Hz (clkdiv=20) hm2_rpspi: SPI0/CE0 Valid cookie matched
> > hm2_rpspi: SPI0/CE0 Base: hm2_7i90.0
> > hm2/hm2_7i90.0: Low Level init 0.15
> > hm2/hm2_7i90.0: MD 2: 3x IOPort v0: accepted, using 3
> > hm2/hm2_7i90.0: MD 0: 1x Hostmot2 DPLL v0: accepted, using 1
> > hm2/hm2_7i90.0: MD 1: 1x Wat

Re: [Emc-users] Safely Upgrading LinuxCNC

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 15 September 2021 14:05:19 johnd wrote:

> On which list?  The one where I added 2.8? 

Not on my buster installs John, its a separate file located 
in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/linuxcnc.list (and to make that, you'll have 
to be root)

Since I run buildbot master-rtpreempt or manual from github builds on 
everything here, mine doesn't read like a 2.8 does. But it looks like 
this for master-rtpreempt, the bleeding edge stuff.**

gene@sixty40:/etc/apt/sources.list.d$ cat *
deb http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/ buster master-rtpreempt

Make yours look like the 2.8 entry, and get rid of any other linuxcnc 
entries in any other files in the /etc/apt tree, and then reload 
synaptic, the top left button.

If it doesn't show up, you've likely a typu somewhere in the 
linuxcnc.list file, reread Andy's messages to compare & correct.

**but it doesn't bleed very often, only my rpi4 build, building it on the 
pi is busted at the moment. First time in nearly a year. But the 9/11/21 
build is still runnning fine, so its a shrug and its not costing me 
money. My cash flow from all this is 100% outward.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] Safely Upgrading LinuxCNC

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 16 September 2021 02:29:05 John Dammeyer wrote:

> I just ran the mill this evening for a while facing off the two sides
> of a casting.  Tomorrow I'll mount it and run the G-Code to profile
> the outside and drill the 3 holes.  The only odd thing that hasn't
> happened before is the Pendant stopped working.  Given that the
> spindle on/off also no longer works the biggest fatality so far in
> this upgrade is the pendant.
>
The spindle control loss is not something I've ever encountered in an 
update.

Are you doing something unusual?

I have 2 1hp rated pmdc I'm running with modified Jon's pwm-servo's, 
pushing then to around 2hp, and 2 1+ hp rated vfd's, one run over an 
rs485 link and one run by a Spinx1.

I have a pendant, came with the 6040. USB interface, no jog dial so I've 
never plugged it in while lcnc was running. Designed for mach, it didn't 
work with that either. So I just take the wireless keyboard to the 
machine.

> Which is one of the reasons I've resisted upgrading.  How many days of
> mucking around will it cost to fix something that wasn't broken other
> than trying to bring the AMD64 upto the same revision as the Pi4.
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: marcus.bow...@visible.eclipse.co.uk
> > [mailto:marcus.bow...@visible.eclipse.co.uk] Sent: September-15-21
> > 10:57 PM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Safely Upgrading LinuxCNC
> >
> > On 2021-09-15 23:29, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > > I have too much other stuff installed on that PC to want to
> > > re-install the OS with a new version that included LinuxCNC 2.8.
> >
> > Good point. I run a single dedicated PC for each machine. I also
> > have swappable C:/ and D:/ drives, so I can preserve the old drives
> > until I am happy with a new installation. I must admit I am slow to
> > upgrade, so problems have usually been ironed out before I move to a
> > new major version.
> >
> > Marcus
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
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-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
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Re: [Emc-users] Safely Upgrading LinuxCNC

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 16 September 2021 02:32:50 John Dammeyer wrote:

> Oh and this is the project.  Butterfly Impact wrench power draw bar.
>
I use a std Porter-Cable impact screw driver for that. 

I think it could strip the drawbar screw in my g0704 if I just let it 
hammer. Portable, no air hoses, runs months on one battery charge. If I 
had an ATC I'd rig it for lcnc control as I think I've enough spare pins 
to run it now. Windshield wiper to raise and lower it, relay across the 
switches. I'd figure out something. :)

[...]

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] Safely Upgrading LinuxCNC

[Gene Heskett]

 what is in the 'Section(s)'
> field and if it can't find that in linuxcnc.org then throwing up a
> dialog message with a suggestion should be the minimum with the ideal
> being a list of selections that start with 2.8-...
>
> Hope that helps.  The most difficult part of software is the user
> interface and human factors design.
>
> Here's another small aside you can ignore if you want.
> Go way way back in time and in North America the research done showed
> that humans have trouble with more than 7 choices.  It's why they set
> up the telephone system with 3 and 4 digits.  IBM did extensive
> research on menu's and the number of items in a menu.  Again more than
> 7 and people made mistakes.
>
> I worked for a savings and trust company back in the late 70's.  Same
> thing.  Menus were kept shorter than 7 selections.  We found the
> tellers and operators would go the wrong way if there were too many
> choices and have trouble backing out when the menu's looked 'almost'
> the same.
>
> There were two prevalent word processors at the beginning of the
> micro-computer usage.  Wordstar (and programmers WordMaster) and Word
> Perfect.  Wordstar was totally intuitive using the Ctrl key and the
> pattern of keys arranged for up/down etc. with the left hand. 
> Microsoft word only retained a few of those keys using instead the
> letter of the key for the operation in the same way that Wordperfect
> did.
>
> What was interesting is listening to a secretary teach someone how to
> print a document with Word Perfect which won the office word processor
> war until Microsoft Windows showed up with WORD.  They didn't explain
> why or what they were supposed to do.  They taught you do an F8 F7 F6
> F6 Shift F9.  (I made up this sequence).  As long as they memorized
> the sequence they didn't need to know what or why they were doing. 
> Only that after the last button the printer woke up and created a
> document.  (dot matrix, took a while).
>
> It's easy to go the direction of F8 F7 F6 F6 Shift F9 until something
> goes wrong...
>
> Hope there's enough there to improve the document.
>
> John Dammeyer
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: September-15-21 11:48 PM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Safely Upgrading LinuxCNC
> >
> > On Wed, 15 Sept 2021 at 23:13, John Dammeyer  
wrote:
> > > So the upgrade document needs a bit of work with some guidance on
> > > what needs to be removed in order for this to work.
> >
> > I thought that
> >
> > "Delete or un-check all the old linuxcnc.org entries (leave all
> > non-linuxcnc.org lines as they are)."
> >
> > Was fairly clear. Can you propose a wording that would have been
> > clear to you? (maybe "un-tick" for some locales?)
> >
> > --
> > atp
> > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > lunatics."
> > � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] Safely Upgrading LinuxCNC

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 16 September 2021 04:32:10 John Dammeyer wrote:

> > From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> >
> > On Thursday 16 September 2021 02:32:50 John Dammeyer wrote:
> > > Oh and this is the project.  Butterfly Impact wrench power draw
> > > bar.
> >
> > I use a std Porter-Cable impact screw driver for that.
> >
> > I think it could strip the drawbar screw in my g0704 if I just let
> > it hammer. Portable, no air hoses, runs months on one battery
> > charge. If I had an ATC I'd rig it for lcnc control as I think I've
> > enough spare pins to run it now. Windshield wiper to raise and lower
> > it, relay across the switches. I'd figure out something. :)
>
> Fun project.  I'm having a gas with this one.  Back in the early 90's
> I moved to The Netherlands and worked for a company that cut and bent
> the leads on semiconductor lead frames.  I was responsible for the
> pocket tray loaders and off-loaders.  My first introduction to CAN bus
> before CAN even had network specific bus drivers.   There were no High
> Level Protocols.  Lots of pneumatics, ,Compumotor linear stepper
> motors, sensors etc.

Fun and learning, a great combo.  I walked into one of the local shops 
about 5 yers back, looking for a 3" piece of very heavy pipe to make a 
cat head for my Sheldon to facilitate threading a new barrel for old 
AT&T, my deer rifle since the 1960's. While standing beside the door I 
was instructed to move out of the way as one of the employees was about 
to use a huge punch press, to chop wood! He was right to warn me cuz 
when he tripped it, two pieces of wood from a 24" round went flying 
about 30 feet each way. He carried them back and did it again making 4 
pieces to fit the shop stove. Pretty deep in January AIR. The shop owner 
gave me about a foot of sched 80, which wasn't really heavy enough but 
did get the job done. The highest tech in the place was a cnc driven 
plasma torch over a water table used to cut out artistic sheet metal 
stuff. I didn't see it working which would have been nice.

> The flywheel on the 30 ton press had an absolute encoder and
> particular positions caused things to move in and out of the way of
> the press tool and die.  They are having a 30 year reunion for the
> introduction of the TFM this fall.  Unfortunately because of COVID
> rules I won't be able to attend.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] Heidenhain IBV 610 troubles

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 18 September 2021 19:40:02 Curtis Dutton wrote:

> So I have a fanuc spindle motor with an MZ hall effect encoder on it.
>
> I'm attempting to interface that via an IBV 610 to a quadrature
> encoder.
>
> I have no experience with these and I'm trying to figure out what is
> going wrong.
>
> The encoder runs on 5v and has A,A* and B,B* signals.
>
> the a*,b* pins output a refernace voltage of 2.5v. The a and B pins
> vary sinusoidally from 2.2v to 2.8 v. If you measure across a to a*
> (or b to b*) you get -.3v to .3v.
>
> I think that this is what is called a 1vpp signal. (am I wrong?)
>
> Anyhow I hooked up all of the signals from encoder to ibv box through
> to the quadrature encoder input. I have double checked all pins, power
> is being delivered to everything and the sinusiod signals are getting
> back to the interpolate box.
>
I don't think you have an encoder, but a resolver. If you are getting one 
sinesoid per full turn, its a resolver.

> Anyhow it doesn't work and I'm not sure how to troubleshoot the black
> box. I have the manuals and I have tried various combinations of the
> dip swithches inside.
>
> does anyone have any troubleshooting tips or stories about their use
> of an interpolater box?
>
>
> Thanks,
>Curt
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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[Emc-users] more dc servo questions

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings all;
As most of you know, I built a servo from scratch for a BS-1.

But I am not at all happy with its performance.
It is a motor with a worm output, driving the worm of the bs-1. And it 
has an A/B quad encoder in it.

But I must rather severely limit its run speed because the PID doesn't 
see the null coming near fast enough to slow it and stop a couple 
arcseconds early. I can't allow it to use reverse to stop as the motor 
seems to be a near short circuit then, crowbarring the power supply, 
causing a 2 to 3 minute dead time for the 450 watt psu to cool, so I 
must limit its speed to disallow its use of reverse to accomplish the 
stop.  With 2 worms in series the scale for a 360 degree full turn is of 
coarse huge.  If it could be throttled to a gradual stop by anticipating 
the coming null, I could probably run it 2 to 4x faster for a cruising 
speed.

So my question is, which of the pid inputs would if raised, better 
anticipate the approaching null, slowing it over the last 5 angular 
minutes of a turn, ideally to a stop within an arc-second of the command 
from the gcode?

Thanks all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] more dc servo questions

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 19 September 2021 20:12:01 Chris Albertson wrote:

> Is the PID controller running on the PC under LCNC or is this an
> external PID controller you built?
>
The pid is the stock lcnc pid,

> What are the numbers, the loop period, motor speed and numer of
> encoder lines. and so on?

from the .ini file:
#
# Axis A
#
[AXIS_A]
MAX_VELOCITY= 30.000
MAX_ACCELERATION= 1500.00

[JOINT_3]
TYPE= ANGULAR
HOME= 0.0
HOME_SEQUENCE   = 3
HOME_SEARCH_VEL = 9.0
HOME_LATCH_VEL  = -1.0
HOME_FINAL_VEL  = 30
HOME_OFFSET = 4.498500
VOLATILE_HOME   = 1
FERROR  = 0.50
MIN_FERROR  = 0.25
MAX_VELOCITY= 30.000
MAX_ACCELERATION= 1500.00
P   = 6000
I   = 1.700
D   = 0.7500
FF0 = 0
FF1 = 21.5
FF2 = 0.55
BIAS= 0
DEADBAND= 0.00015
BACKLASH= .1
MAX_OUTPUT  = 900.
SERVO_SCALE = 666.7
PWMGEN_TYPE = 2

Loop period is stock, 1 kilohertz. I've tried up to 4k, but it didn't 
help
> I don't think the fact that there is a worm gear matters.  The
> problem, I bet is the large inertia of the system.

Thats my assessment too. Throw in a bit of worm friction and it stops, 
still spitting out .1% to 1% drive, not enough to actually entice it to 
move once stopped.

> Aside from proper tuning of the PID gains you could change the system
> to use a nested or "cascade" PID.  THis allows the velocity setpoint
> to be controlled by the position error
> see the section "cascade" in the wiki article
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller

I looked at that 6 months ago, and quickly got lost.

> I think you want a very fast loop i=for the inner PID.  LIkely it
> wouldbe in external hardwarelike a microcontroller or FPGA.   (does
> MESA do the PID algorithm in the FPGA?  It should.)

But it doesn't that I know of.

Thanks Chris.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] Square holes

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 20 September 2021 14:38:43 ken.stra...@gmail.com wrote:

> Recently (a nebulous concept as one gets older) there was a thread
> about milling square and other shaped holes using synchronized motion
> of the spindle and X/Y. I tried searching the list archive but am
> obviously not using the right search terms. Help, please?

That was a link or 3 to some youtube videos by Sam Sokolik, and he has 
not shared the code AFAIK. Both square and hex wre demoed. Nice concept 
though.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] Square holes

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 20 September 2021 15:12:39 Sam Sokolik wrote:

> I don't know if the latest code is here...  If not I will post it
>
> https://forum.linuxcnc.org/10-advanced-configuration/38549-non-circula
>r-boring-linuxcnc-fun?start=0
>
> On Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 2:05 PM Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > On Monday 20 September 2021 14:38:43 ken.stra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Recently (a nebulous concept as one gets older) there was a thread
> > > about milling square and other shaped holes using synchronized
> > > motion of the spindle and X/Y. I tried searching the list archive
> > > but am obviously not using the right search terms. Help, please?
> >
> > That was a link or 3 to some youtube videos by Sam Sokolik, and he
> > has not shared the code AFAIK. Both square and hex wre demoed. Nice
> > concept though.
> >

Got it, Thanks Sam. Now to see if I'm smart enough to us it.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] DC Servo issues

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 22 September 2021 00:27:53 John Dammeyer wrote:

> I love it when a plan comes together.  Tested out the Bergerda 1.27NM
> motor on the Y axis. I was worried that it might not carry the extra
> weight as the DC Servos were 1.6NM.
>
> Well.  Silky smooth.  For a 2.8A motor it never has more than about
> 1.0A current draw and about 0.34NM based on what the servo drive
> reports.  Sounds nice too.  And that's with two heavy vices and a
> rotary table all the way up to 3000 RPM 4:1 to 0.2" pitch ACME screw.
>
> Time to put the other one on the X axis and verify that the positions
> remain accurate.
>
> John

I'm surprised you kept the acme screw. I used a stationary acme as z on 
my hf micromill, first mill I cnc'd. with a rotating nut design useing 
two nook nuts. Had to adjust the phases of the 2 nuts to keep the 
backlash under 5 thou, several times a year. First thing I did to the 
bigger G0704 was put a ball screw kit in it. Never looked back, 5 years 
later backlash is still under 2 thou. Now my biggest problem is that the 
post isn't plumb. So its impossible to tram correctly. But my garage is 
full, no room for a bigger, more accurately cast nachine.
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Bari [mailto:bari00...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: September-18-21 11:30 PM
> > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] DC Servo issues
> >
> > On 9/19/21 00:44, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > > Over 10 years ago I bought two of these for the XY axis of the
> > > mill.
> > > https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/dc-servo-m
> > >otor/nema34-1125ozin-dual-shaft-servo-motor
> > >
> > > One of the things that showed up right away was that with
> > > identical drives one motor ran hotter than the other.  Further
> >
> > investigation showed the resistance of the windings was different
> > with the warmer motor having the lower resistance and inductance
> > which matched the spec sheet.  By then it was too late to return the
> > high resistance one so I decided to put what appeared to be the on
> > spec motor on the Y axis since it had to carry more weight.  The X
> > axis got the cooler and higher resistance motor.
> >
> > > Especially since AutomationTechnologies wouldn't replace the motor
> > > even though it was clearly out of spec.  Not about to buy
> >
> > anything else from them.
> >
> >
> > They are local for me. The owner is a nice enough guy but he also
> > problems with getting reliable consistent parts from his homeland.
> >
> > I only buy things from them that I expect to be like a kit that
> > needs to be cleaned and assembled properly before use. I have had to
> > return radial bearings with detents and linear bearings with crud
> > inside or flat spots. We call them crunchy bearings. CNC mills come
> > with red oxide treated fasteners and without nuts on the end of
> > ballscrews so you can't adjust preloads unless you shim or replace
> > with proper screws. Cables are assembled without the use of strain
> > reliefs.
> >
> > Red oxide treated fasteners� https://postimg.cc/jnhmsRhq
> >
> > No strain relief� https://postimg.cc/7bqwTvvy
> >
> > 1mm of lash� https://postimg.cc/w1bvqpWk
> >
> >
> >
> >
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>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] DC Servo issues

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 22 September 2021 05:18:40 John Dammeyer wrote:

> > From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> >
> > On Wednesday 22 September 2021 00:27:53 John Dammeyer wrote:
> > > I love it when a plan comes together.
> > >
> > > John
> >
> > I'm surprised you kept the acme screw.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> This is a slow on-going project.  Ball screws are on the list.
>
> John

Ahh, resembles some of mine then. ;o) Do carry on.
>
>
>
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-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
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Re: [Emc-users] more dc servo questions

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 22 September 2021 11:44:51 John Figie wrote:

> Gene,
>
> I would like to better understand your problem and have been thinking
> about this. I have some questions.
>
> > > I don't think the fact that there is a worm gear matters.  The
> > > problem, I bet is the large inertia of the system.
>
> Hmm I am not sure about the inertia. I think if you have a large gear
> reduction then the inertia reflected across the gears should appear
> low from the motors point of view.
>
> > > Aside from proper tuning of the PID gains you could change the
> > > system to use a nested or "cascade" PID.  THis allows the velocity
> > > setpoint to be controlled by the position error
> > > see the section "cascade" in the wiki article
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller
> > >
> > > I think you want a very fast loop i=for the inner PID.  LIkely it
> > > wouldbe in external hardwarelike a microcontroller or FPGA.  
> > > (does MESA
> >
> > do
> >
> > > the PID algorithm in the FPGA?  It should.)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 3:39 PM Gene Heskett
> > > 
> >
> > wrote:
> > >> Greetings all;
> > >> As most of you know, I built a servo from scratch for a BS-1.
>
> BS-1? What is this? Is this like a Grizzly BS-1 dividing head? Did you
> mount the servo motor to this?

Not a grizzly, a Chinese clone. 

> > >> But I am not at all happy with its performance.
> > >> It is a motor with a worm output, driving the worm of the bs-1.
> > >> And it has an A/B quad encoder in it.
>
> So you have a 2 worm gear reduction. Where in this system is the
> encoder mounted?

On the rear of the motor.

> What are the encoder counts per rev of the encoder? 

DNK, no index in it.  So I measured the encoder for 100 turns of the BS-1 
as verified by the home switch, divided that by 36 to get a count 
per degree scale value. Thats about 666.something per degree of the BS-1

> What are the motor characteristics?

Brushed PMDC, rated a 100 watts, 24 volts. Intended to run estate gates 
by chain drive similar to garage door openers. I assume its OEM 
controller has a homing switch, and counts encoder pulses to open so 
many pulses when the approaching driver punches his access button.

> > >> But I must rather severely limit its run speed because the PID
> > >> doesn't see the null coming near fast enough to slow it and stop
> > >> a couple
>
> When you say null coming what do you mean? Is this the point where the
> desired position is reached according to the motion planner in
> LinuxCNC?

Yes. I'd assume so. Motion has its own version.

Null in this context is when the encoder output equals commanded 
position.

> > >> arcseconds early. I can't allow it to use reverse to stop as the
> > >> motor seems to be a near short circuit then, crowbarring the
> > >> power supply,
>
> How do you prevent the PWM from reversing the voltage on the motor? Is
> the motor driven from a PWM in only one polarity? How is the PWM and
> the switches arranged?

Control is by a LCNC PID, fed by the lcnc encoders position output 
feeding the PID feedback, with a pwmgen running in mode 2 where it has 
two pulse width modulated outputs, one fwd, one reverse, which are fed 
to a BTS 7960 board containing 2 of the Infineon half bridges for a full 
bridge control. This IC is rated at 45 volts, 43 amps. Fed by a 24 volt 
supply good for nearly 20 amps, intended for automotive seat position 
controls, it runs this motor with zero heating. But if it overshoots the 
commanded position and goes into reverse to bring the motor back by more 
than a 1 or 2 % drive while the motor is still coasting fwd, it will 
crowbar the psu, getting it hot instantly, causeing the psu to do a shut 
down until it has cooled for 2 or 3 minutes. Even then, no heat in the 
BTS IC's.

The net result is that I must limit its cuising speed and accelleration 
in order for it to coast to a stop using its own friction while avoiding 
the use of reverse to stop, usually a quite small fraction of a degree 
early.  And that is about 10 to 15% of the speed it can move with the 
full 24 volts applied.

> Regards,
>
> John Figie
>
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-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
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Re: [Emc-users] more dc servo questions

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 22 September 2021 13:42:00 John Figie wrote:

> John Figie
>
>  But if it overshoots the
>
> > commanded position and goes into reverse to bring the motor back by
> > more than a 1 or 2 % drive while the motor is still coasting fwd, it
> > will crowbar the psu, getting it hot instantly, causeing the psu to
> > do a shut down until it has cooled for 2 or 3 minutes. Even then, no
> > heat in the BTS IC's.
>
> So if the motor is rotating forward and has enough inertia then when
> you try to slow it or reverse
> it it will become a generator and try to increase the output voltage
> on the PSU. Is the
> crowbar circuit in the PSU an overvoltage protection crowbar? If so,
> then maybe that is the issue.

I think, from what I have seen on the scope, that yes, its a generator, 
but with the bridge switched in the reversal, its the equ of hooking 
a -24 volt generator to the psu. Equals instant, many amps drawn 
crowbar. Up to that point the psu is running dead cold, but when it 
shuts down, the hot transistors in the psu are hot enough that the 
radiated heat says that corner of the psu is burn your hand hot, in 
milliseconds.  There is no damage, and normal operation is resumed if 
time to cool has been given and power is then cycled off & hack on. That 
FWIW, is a feature of F2 on all my machines. I have not hooked that up 
in hal, mainly because that would kill the power instantly, stopping the 
cooling fan, and extending the enforced stop from 2-3 minutes to around 
10 minutes. On the scope, the dc has no up-spike, it just drops like a 
rock, taking around 10 micro-seconds to get down to 1 volt. That holds 
for several milliseconds while the psu is deciding to shut down from the 
short on its output.

Could the BTS 7960 bridge itself actually turn into a short under those 
conditions?. It has a good sized heat sink that never has a detectable 
heat. With single digit milliohms of R when on, thats is not beyond 
imagining. A subtrate scr perhaps? 

There is a one paragraph description buried in technical gobbledegook in 
the manual.  And there is an INH input but driving it would take 
external full time logic in order to meet its reaction time.
 
> Maybe you need some way to get rid of the stopping energy with a shunt
> resistor and switch that activates
> before the crowbar trips.

Matches my thinking but I haven't pursued it into visualizing the logic 
to do it with. Said another way, I am a C.E.T., getting ancient and 
rusty but w/o enough data to make sense of it. And being a CET, I'd 
druther fix it with finesse, not by making a lot of heat dumping power 
brute force.

> In industrial motion systems a shunt resistor and switch is used to
> regulate the DC bus that feeds
> all of the servo axis. This is not a precise voltage regulator, it
> just turns on the shunt as the voltage gets
> above a set limit and then turns off again as the voltage returns to a
> lower limit.
>
I have thought of doing something like that for the spindle psu, which 
shoots well above the surge voltage rating of its filter caps when doing 
a spindle reverse, however its only for a few milliseconds before the 
controller uses that recovered energy to accelerate the spindle in the 
new direction, doing it for free, no noticable surge in the wall current 
draw at all, the surge is of such short duration that there is no 
detectable heating of the caps during the few milliseconds of the 
overvoltage duration.  And its been doing it for 5+ years with zero 
failures. From 3k revs fwd to 3k revs reverse is 350 to 400 
milliseconds.

> Regards,
>
> John
>
Thanks John.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] more dc servo questions

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 22 September 2021 14:28:40 Chris Albertson wrote:

> So you are driving it with something like this?
> amazon.com/HiLetgo-BTS7960-Driver...
> <https://www.amazon.com/HiLetgo-BTS7960-Driver-Arduino-Current/dp/B00W
>SN98DC/ref=asc_df_B00WSN98DC/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=1980909
>29431&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9099973595926304313&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=
>&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031026&hvtargid=pla-403676040447
>&psc=1>

Precisely. In mode 2 for what you want below, there is a setable deadband 
so both inputs are never on at the same time.

> One possible mistake is if even for a short time the both enable
> inputs are active you will get "shoot through" and short the power
> supply.Can you verify this NEVER haens using a scope or logic
> analyser?

The best sampling scope on the planet at the moment has not found both 
signals high at the same time.

> Do not bother with a software "hal scope"  You need to 
> look at that is actually on the wires with a device that samples the
> actual metal pins.  Real pins have riseand fall times and they can't
> intersect.
>
> I would also just use one PWM generator and connet it to both LPWM and
> RPWM.

Mode 2 does that.

> A safer why to handle L-EN and R_EN is to make 100% certain 
> that they go through a state where BOTH ARE OFF.  Don't flip them
> instantly as there is a finite rise and decay time. There needs to be
> soome number of microseconds where both are off.
>
That is the case. I could post pix but John K. won't let me.

> I bet LCNC flips both L-EN and R_EN on eht same software cycle.  If so
> then the supply is shorted via the controller board.

Not that I've caught with a $3400 350 megasample scope.

> There boards are cheap and another way to fix this is to used a boaed
> with a "forward/Reverse" pin rather then two pins sothere is no chance
> of enabling both pins.
>
> Or using a "smart" controller with a serial interface where the speed
> and direction are sent as a digital command message.   Then the
> acceletaion and such is handled by the controller.

Link?

> The sounds like an short in the h-bridge to me but I could be wrong. 
> You can test this with a digital scope. on the control pins.
>
> On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 10:21 AM Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > On Wednesday 22 September 2021 11:44:51 John Figie wrote:
> > > Gene,
> > >
> > > I would like to better understand your problem and have been
> > > thinking about this. I have some questions.
> > >
> > > > > I don't think the fact that there is a worm gear matters.  The
> > > > > problem, I bet is the large inertia of the system.
> > >
> > > Hmm I am not sure about the inertia. I think if you have a large
> > > gear reduction then the inertia reflected across the gears should
> > > appear low from the motors point of view.
> > >
> > > > > Aside from proper tuning of the PID gains you could change the
> > > > > system to use a nested or "cascade" PID.  THis allows the
> > > > > velocity setpoint to be controlled by the position error
> > > > > see the section "cascade" in the wiki article
> > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller
> > > > >
> > > > > I think you want a very fast loop i=for the inner PID.  LIkely
> > > > > it wouldbe in external hardwarelike a microcontroller or FPGA.
> > > > > (does MESA
> > > >
> > > > do
> > > >
> > > > > the PID algorithm in the FPGA?  It should.)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 3:39 PM Gene Heskett
> > > > > 
> > > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >> Greetings all;
> > > > >> As most of you know, I built a servo from scratch for a BS-1.
> > >
> > > BS-1? What is this? Is this like a Grizzly BS-1 dividing head? Did
> > > you mount the servo motor to this?
> >
> > Not a grizzly, a Chinese clone.
> >
> > > > >> But I am not at all happy with its performance.
> > > > >> It is a motor with a worm output, driving the worm of the
> > > > >> bs-1. And it has an A/B quad encoder in it.
> > >
> > > So you have a 2 worm gear reduction. Where in this system is the
> > > encoder mounted?
> >
> > On the rear of the motor.
> >
> > > What are the encoder counts 

Re: [Emc-users] more dc servo questions

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 22 September 2021 14:48:55 dave engvall wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Fully recognizing that nothing is impossible to the person that
> doesn't have to make it work.  With that proviso I will open
> mouth and insert foot. To wit: a sine for acceleration should give a
> more gentle startup and approach to end point. Of course
> implementation is left as an exercise for the student. ;-)

Which will probably involve a limit3. ISTR I've already got one in there.

> Now I'll shut up and go away.
>
> Dave
>
Chuckle. Thanks Dave.

> On 9/22/21 11:28 AM, Chris Albertson wrote:
> > So you are driving it with something like this?
> > amazon.com/HiLetgo-BTS7960-Driver...
> > <https://www.amazon.com/HiLetgo-BTS7960-Driver-Arduino-Current/dp/B0
> >0WSN98DC/ref=asc_df_B00WSN98DC/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198
> >090929431&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9099973595926304313&hvpone=&hvptwo=&
> >hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031026&hvtargid=pla-4036
> >76040447&psc=1>
> >
> > One possible mistake is if even for a short time the both enable
> > inputs are active you will get "shoot through" and short the power
> > supply.Can you verify this NEVER haens using a scope or
> > logic analyser?   Do not bother with a software "hal scope"  You
> > need to look at that is actually on the wires with a device that
> > samples the actual metal pins.  Real pins have riseand fall times
> > and they can't intersect.
> >
> > I would also just use one PWM generator and connet it to both LPWM
> > and RPWM.A safer why to handle L-EN and R_EN is to make 100%
> > certain that they go through a state where BOTH ARE OFF.  Don't flip
> > them instantly as there is a finite rise and decay time. There needs
> > to be soome number of microseconds where both are off.
> >
> > I bet LCNC flips both L-EN and R_EN on eht same software cycle.  If
> > so then the supply is shorted via the controller board.
> >
> > There boards are cheap and another way to fix this is to used a
> > boaed with a "forward/Reverse" pin rather then two pins sothere is
> > no chance of enabling both pins.
> >
> > Or using a "smart" controller with a serial interface where the
> > speed and direction are sent as a digital command message.   Then
> > the acceletaion and such is handled by the controller.
> >
> > The sounds like an short in the h-bridge to me but I could be wrong.
> >  You can test this with a digital scope. on the control pins.
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 10:21 AM Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> >> On Wednesday 22 September 2021 11:44:51 John Figie wrote:
> >>> Gene,
> >>>
> >>> I would like to better understand your problem and have been
> >>> thinking about this. I have some questions.
> >>>
> >>>>> I don't think the fact that there is a worm gear matters.  The
> >>>>> problem, I bet is the large inertia of the system.
> >>>
> >>> Hmm I am not sure about the inertia. I think if you have a large
> >>> gear reduction then the inertia reflected across the gears should
> >>> appear low from the motors point of view.
> >>>
> >>>>> Aside from proper tuning of the PID gains you could change the
> >>>>> system to use a nested or "cascade" PID.  THis allows the
> >>>>> velocity setpoint to be controlled by the position error
> >>>>> see the section "cascade" in the wiki article
> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think you want a very fast loop i=for the inner PID.  LIkely
> >>>>> it wouldbe in external hardwarelike a microcontroller or FPGA.
> >>>>> (does MESA
> >>>>
> >>>> do
> >>>>
> >>>>> the PID algorithm in the FPGA?  It should.)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 3:39 PM Gene Heskett
> >>>>> 
> >>>>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> Greetings all;
> >>>>>> As most of you know, I built a servo from scratch for a BS-1.
> >>>
> >>> BS-1? What is this? Is this like a Grizzly BS-1 dividing head? Did
> >>> you mount the servo motor to this?
> >>
> >> Not a grizzly, a Chinese clone.
> >>
> >&

Re: [Emc-users] more dc servo questions

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 22 September 2021 15:31:33 Chris Albertson wrote:

> SIn waves are there own derivatives and integrals, except for phase.  
> So a sine wave acceleration works if the gaol is a sine wive velocity
> curve. But I assume the goal here is maximum change in velocity. 
> You get that by running the motor is full reverse.
>
> I doubt we are seing back EMF because the worm cn not be back driven
> by a wheel.
>
> My guess about the root cause if the power supply current spike is a
> shoot-through in the double h-brige because the direction owas
> reserved instantly with no though to the gate driver rise and fall
> times. (I actualy hope it is this because the fix then is easy and can
> be done on software. If I'm wrong th fix is harder.
>
Not in the same servo cycle as whats presented to the pwmgen comes back 
out in 4 pulse lumps as its running at 4 kilohertz. To change direction 
can only be done on the next servo thread. However I have not seen it 
done in less than 2 servo cycles.

But lets ask Peter since its his pwmgen:

Could your fpga pwmgen in the 5i25, running in mode=2, reverse itself in 
the same servo loop?

> On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 11:51 AM dave engvall  
wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Fully recognizing that nothing is impossible to the person that
> > doesn't have to make it work.  With that proviso I will open
> > mouth and insert foot. To wit: a sine for acceleration should give a
> > more gentle startup and approach to end point. Of course
> > implementation is left as an exercise for the student. ;-)
> > Now I'll shut up and go away.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > On 9/22/21 11:28 AM, Chris Albertson wrote:
> > > So you are driving it with something like this?
> > > amazon.com/HiLetgo-BTS7960-Driver...
> > > <
> >
> > https://www.amazon.com/HiLetgo-BTS7960-Driver-Arduino-Current/dp/B00
> >WSN98DC/ref=asc_df_B00WSN98DC/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=1980
> >90929431&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9099973595926304313&hvpone=&hvptwo=&h
> >vqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031026&hvtargid=pla-40367
> >6040447&psc=1
> >
> > > One possible mistake is if even for a short time the both enable
> > > inputs
> >
> > are
> >
> > > active you will get "shoot through" and short the power supply.   
> > > Can
> >
> > you
> >
> > > verify this NEVER haens using a scope or logic analyser?   Do
> > > not bother with a software "hal scope"  You need to look at that
> > > is actually
> >
> > on
> >
> > > the wires with a device that samples the actual metal pins.  Real
> > > pins
> >
> > have
> >
> > > riseand fall times and they can't intersect.
> > >
> > > I would also just use one PWM generator and connet it to both LPWM
> > > and RPWM.A safer why to handle L-EN and R_EN is to make 100%
> > > certain that they go through a state where BOTH ARE OFF.  Don't
> > > flip them instantly as there is a finite rise and decay time.
> > > There needs to be soome number of microseconds where both are off.
> > >
> > > I bet LCNC flips both L-EN and R_EN on eht same software cycle. 
> > > If so
> >
> > then
> >
> > > the supply is shorted via the controller board.
> > >
> > > There boards are cheap and another way to fix this is to used a
> > > boaed
> >
> > with
> >
> > > a "forward/Reverse" pin rather then two pins sothere is no chance
> > > of enabling both pins.
> > >
> > > Or using a "smart" controller with a serial interface where the
> > > speed and direction are sent as a digital command message.   Then
> > > the acceletaion
> >
> > and
> >
> > > such is handled by the controller.
> > >
> > > The sounds like an short in the h-bridge to me but I could be
> > > wrong.  You can test this with a digital scope. on the control
> > > pins.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 10:21 AM Gene Heskett
> > > 
> >
> > wrote:
> > >> On Wednesday 22 September 2021 11:44:51 John Figie wrote:
> > >>> Gene,
> > >>>
> > >>> I would like to better understand your problem and have been
> > >>> thinking about this. I have some questions.
> > >>>
> > >>>>> I don't think the fact that there is a worm gear matters.  The
> > >>>>> 

Re: [Emc-users] VFD Recomendation

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 24 September 2021 09:37:32 Todd Zuercher wrote:

> Anyone have a recommendation for a good VFD and supplier that can run
> a 15kw 4pole spindle at 24000rpm?

Thats going to be a tough one Todd, its 10x the power of anything I have, 
and would need to get to 800 hz to run a 4 pole at 24k revs.

Are you sure its a 4 pole? All of my 24k's have been 2 pole, doing 24k on 
400 hz. 3600 on 60 hz, but needing better cooling to run that slow for 
long jobs. The one I'm running now, will be spitting steam back into the 
5 gallon tank in an hours running at 4k. But is fine for longer jobs at 
14k-20k with the mister on. At the higher revs, it never gets the tank 
above 36C.

> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>
>
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-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] VFD Recomendation

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 24 September 2021 10:47:49 Todd Zuercher wrote:

> Yes.
> https://www.hsspindles.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/specs-13.pdf
>
Nice chart. But doesn't mention at any place, rpms vs frequency.
I don't imagine they give that puppy away either.

I tend to run the cheaper stuff, only having a 254 volt center tapped at 
ground single phase feed at my location.

> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street 
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Gene Heskett 
> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2021 10:27 AM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] VFD Recomendation
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
>
> On Friday 24 September 2021 09:37:32 Todd Zuercher wrote:
> > Anyone have a recommendation for a good VFD and supplier that can
> > run a 15kw 4pole spindle at 24000rpm?
>
> Thats going to be a tough one Todd, its 10x the power of anything I
> have, and would need to get to 800 hz to run a 4 pole at 24k revs.
>
> Are you sure its a 4 pole? All of my 24k's have been 2 pole, doing 24k
> on 400 hz. 3600 on 60 hz, but needing better cooling to run that slow
> for long jobs. The one I'm running now, will be spitting steam back
> into the 5 gallon tank in an hours running at 4k. But is fine for
> longer jobs at 14k-20k with the mister on. At the higher revs, it
> never gets the tank above 36C.
>
> > Todd Zuercher
> > P. Graham Dunn
> > Inc.<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%
> >2F
> > www.pgrahamdunn.com%2Findex.php&data=04%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdu
> >nn
> > .com%7C4727423beae5413ddb1008d97f67884b%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e08
> >06
> > fb43%7C0%7C0%7C637680905784414687%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC
> >4w
> > LjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sd
> >at
> > a=Nx%2BJRwnxdrUALX1Gr268XqM%2BcVZ49OAy2BChgj9K%2BOs%3D&reserved=
> >0> 630 Henry Street
> > Dalton, Ohio 44618
> > Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >to
> > ddz%40pgrahamdunn.com%7C4727423beae5413ddb1008d97f67884b%7C5758544c5
> >73
> > f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C637680905784414687%7CUnknown%7CTWFpb
> >GZ
> > sb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0
> >%3
> > D%7C3000&sdata=ZJy9nGS8vpOxvQSNzrWWYuioxOvg%2BKMmPuNAeF%2FRFaQ%3
> >D& amp;reserved=0
>
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
> respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page
> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgene
>slinuxbox.net%3A6309%2Fgene&data=04%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com%
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>C0%7C0%7C637680905784424735%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDA
>iLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=BmhVGU
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>dz%40pgrahamdunn.com%7C4727423beae5413ddb1008d97f67884b%7C5758544c573f4
>7cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C637680905784424735%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3
>d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C
>3000&sdata=g5sxcHgiurOW3VNSflYYJ6WDgKHIJu8%2FnNo7l3S4Q2Y%3D&res
>erved=0
>
>
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If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
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Re: [Emc-users] VFD Recomendation

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 24 September 2021 11:49:02 Todd Zuercher wrote:

> They cost about $6500, but that cost is about half any competitors
> equivalent. (such as HSD, Omlat...)
>
> The motor name plate says 800hz for 24000rpm, (guess I assumed that
> info was on that page I linked to.)

It may have been buried in the language, but I only read American 
English. I did find, on ebay, a couple 15+ kwh'ers that go to a 
kilohertz, with obviously custom built to order pricings. And likely 
shipping delays to match. Needless to say, that power and voltage level 
demands state of the art active devices. And design engineers who 
actually know what they are doing, AND access to them so you can do a 
mind meld to make sure you are hooking them up accordingly. Even 10 feet 
of 6 guage in metallic conduit can have enough pf's of capacitance to 
destroy a 5ns switching device. Makes bigger, plastic conduit a bit more 
appetizing.

> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street 
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Gene Heskett 
> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2021 11:26 AM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] VFD Recomendation
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
>
> On Friday 24 September 2021 10:47:49 Todd Zuercher wrote:
> > Yes.
> > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fww
> >w.
> > hsspindles.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2019%2F03%2Fspecs-13.pdf&
> >;d
> > ata=04%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com%7Cbcf7b99cdd484b02ab9608d97f6f
> >c7
> > 65%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C637680941219090280%7
> >CU
> > nknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1
> >ha
> > WwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bTAaxaFe%2B1kE2WR9jCTqyi2ILgw1x7J
> >zc wvl%2FbzBYAc%3D&reserved=0
>
> Nice chart. But doesn't mention at any place, rpms vs frequency.
> I don't imagine they give that puppy away either.
>
> I tend to run the cheaper stuff, only having a 254 volt center tapped
> at ground single phase feed at my location.
>
> > Todd Zuercher
> > P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> > 630 Henry Street
> > Dalton, Ohio 44618
> > Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Gene Heskett 
> > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2021 10:27 AM
> > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] VFD Recomendation
> >
> > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
> >
> > On Friday 24 September 2021 09:37:32 Todd Zuercher wrote:
> > > Anyone have a recommendation for a good VFD and supplier that can
> > > run a 15kw 4pole spindle at 24000rpm?
> >
> > Thats going to be a tough one Todd, its 10x the power of anything I
> > have, and would need to get to 800 hz to run a 4 pole at 24k revs.
> >
> > Are you sure its a 4 pole? All of my 24k's have been 2 pole, doing
> > 24k on 400 hz. 3600 on 60 hz, but needing better cooling to run that
> > slow for long jobs. The one I'm running now, will be spitting steam
> > back into the 5 gallon tank in an hours running at 4k. But is fine
> > for longer jobs at 14k-20k with the mister on. At the higher revs,
> > it never gets the tank above 36C.
> >
> > > Todd Zuercher
> > > P. Graham Dunn
> > >
> > >Inc.<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F
> > >%2 5
> > >2F
> > >
> > >https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fww
> > >w.
> > > pgrahamdunn.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com%7Cbc
> > >f7b
> > > 99cdd484b02ab9608d97f6fc765%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0
> > >%7C
> > > 0%7C637680941219090280%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDA
> > >iLC
> > > JQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=9shs
> > >kfk
> > > ovi8mTo6%2BL%2BIZfMXKdYXnOIrzDwj1UoyQTRw%3D&reserved=0%2Findex
> > >.ph p&data=04%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdu
> > >nn
> > > .com%7C4727423beae5413ddb1008d97f67884b%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e
> > >08 06
> > > fb43%7C0%7C0%7C637680905784414687%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoi
> > >MC 4w
> > > LjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&
> > >sd at
> > > a=Nx%2BJRwnxdrUALX1Gr268XqM%2BcVZ49OAy2BChgj9K%2BOs%3D&reserve
> > >d= 0> 630 Henry Street
> > > Dalton, Ohio 44618
> > > Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
> > >
> > >
> > > ___

Re: [Emc-users] VFD Recomendation

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 25 September 2021 07:53:08 Stuart Stevenson wrote:

> No idea if the following is true but the source was knowledgeable.
>
> years ago I was told 400 hz was as fast as a control could supply per
> a government regulation limiting VFDs so plebes could not build fast
> enough centrifuges to purify uranium.
>
> I stand ready to be corrected.
>
> Stuart

Hummm, makes perfect sense Stuart. I wonder if its buried in the ITAR 
regs someplace? I've not seen a discussion on that in years, since 
Hitachi-America gave away the farm all those years ago.

Take care now.

-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] VFD Recomendation

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 25 September 2021 09:50:31 John Figie wrote:

> Actually the US export regulation is 600 hz. I worked in servo drive
> development.
>
Thanks for the update John.

In a roundabout way, that does seem to indicate that what Todd needs is 
going to be American made, accompanied by scary permit paperwork, and 
because of its limited use experience to fix common problems, not as 
dependable as we are used to.

Among other things is the frozen technology. One of my sons /was/ working 
in a shop that repairs electronic stuff from nuclear power facilities. 
All of that tech is frozen at 1960ish tech levels, making it illegal to 
use a more modern, thousands of times more dependable semiconductor 
device to repair them. With all the environmental tests such repairs 
must pass, makes replacing a shorted 1n34 diode, which I could do for a 
few cents and my time, into a 10 to 50 thousand dollar job with 50% of 
that being the world wide search for an original part. You can't replace 
a a half watt rated 5 cent in 1962  carbon composition resistor with a 6 
month lifetime, with a 10 cent metal film fireproof version rated at 2 
watts that barring mechanical destruction, would still be in tolerance 
when our star goes nova in its death throes billions of years hence. All 
because its type approved stuff and that would cancel the type approval. 
All the bill payers involved are non-technical and will say it worked 
that way once, make it work that way again with original parts only.

I first ran into that in dealing with the military in 1961, working for a 
contractor who had a contract to maintain the portal door cameras at the 
Titan missle sites wrapped around EAFB at the time. Complaint was the 
camera was just barely working, and there were no spares. So I went out 
and got it, brought it back to EAFB and found a germainium diode, used 
as a back porch clamp switch had about a 10/1 front to back ratio. A 
very poor choice for such duties so I replaced it with a similar but si 
diode that was at least a million times better device for the job. Best 
picture I'd seen out of any of those 3 cameras in the previous year. But 
somebody, processing the payment discovered the part wasn't original and 
decreed that only original parts could be used. The fact that the camera 
now worked better than new was of zero interest, so they had the parts 
crib in the MAMS building find an original part (that took several 
months) and I had to put it in when they finally got it. In the meantime 
of course, the air force had to delegate a crew of mp rated flaps to 
guard the portal door (it was a revolving door that was designed to 
withstand a 500 feet above 50 megaton blast, and was 2 or 3 flights of 
stairs underground, probably weighed 10,000 lbs), because the camera 
wasn't to be re-installed until it had the original part in it.

All of which was assinine from my point of view. But at that time I 
didn't even have a 1st phone, which I fixed shortly afterwards, then saw 
the comm college in Norfolk NE, (Johnny Carsen's home town) was doing 
C.E.T. testing a few years later so I walked in the door, laid a $20 
(the application fee) on the profs desk and blew his mind 45 minutes 
later when I handed in the 4 hour test. He had been teaching that class 
for about 3 years then, and none of his students had passed it. I wasn't 
exactly impressed with his teaching ability.

Pretty good for a guy with an 8th grade education. I quit school and went 
to work fixing them new fangled things called tv's in the middle of my 
freshman in high school year. The year was 1948. And WOI-tv in Ames Ia 
had been on the air about a year. First tv station in Iowa.

But by summer next year, I'll have been retired for 20 years so I'm 
getting rusty. And despite the fact that I have now outlived all 3 
wives, and 3 of the children the first one gave me, I still think I've 
had a good ride for what will be 87 years on 10/04.

[...]

-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] more dc servo questions

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 28 September 2021 13:43:54 John Figie wrote:

>   Gene,
>
> So It seems like you have verified that the PSU shutdown is not caused
> by a shoot through current in the H bridge and that is good.
> Now if the motor is running at 24V and you instantly reverse the power
> supply, the current going into the motor will not instantly reverse
> direction because of the motor inductance. But if the inertia is large
> compared to the inductance (large in terms of stored energy) then like
> you say, the current will soon get very large as you will have
> essentially 48V (24 from PSU and 24 from back EMF) across the winding,
> limited only by the resistance.
>
> Now I am working on making some torque mode drives for my lathe
> retrofit. But I would like to see if I can make a decent motor and
> drive simulation using LTSpice. I already have what I think is a
> reasonable motor model. I intend to share the simulation model once I
> am confident in it. It can also be used to show any benefit in true
> torque mode, where the current is the command input to the drive,
> rather than voltage mode - what I think you have. I have found that if
> a simulation can be set up and validated it gives much more insight
> into a particular problem - you can make changes quickly and you can
> measure things that would be otherwise very difficult.
>
> It would be cool if I could get more info about your motor and
> mechanics.
>
> Like:
>
> No Load Speed - maybe not feasible for you since you would need to
> take your machine apart.

My best estimate would still be a WAG.

> Nominal voltage and speed
24 volts, 100 watt rated, but I suspect from the heat rise that would be 
an ICAS rating. Service target is a chain driven estate driveway gate 
and one open/close wouldn't be anywhere near CCS.

> Stall current
Since the psu is a 300 watt model and doesn't crowbar at the limited 
accells I can use, I'll say a WAG at 10 to 12 amps. 

> Stall torque
unk, more than enough to turn the bs-1. Including I believe with a 
cutting load applied

> DC resistance

That I can get.

> Inductance

I have an esr meter that might report that, none of the several dvm's I 
have does inductance. 

> Inertia of rotor and worm - that one may be hard to find. but maybe it
> can be estimated by the mass, and diameter of the armature and
> connected load. The mass on the worm gear side will probably not be
> significant because of the high gear ratios.
>
> Regards,
>
> John

I'll get back with anything else I can measure but I've got some pill 
shopping to do yet today, scripts running out etc.

Thanks John.
>
>
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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[Emc-users] jogaxisget.comp usage?

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings all;

I blew away the rpi4b linuxcnc-dev, and pulled a new clone, which fixed 
my build problems. A git phart?

But while surveying the build, I noticed jogaxisget.comp. But some time 
has gone by and I cannot recall who sent it to me. My apologies and many 
thanks to whoever sent it.

So since I have either 2 or 4 axis machines, I added an A axis to it, 
compiled and installed it. No problems there. But I don't have a tut or 
example of how to hook it u?

Is there such a doc?  URL?

Thank all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] jogaxisget.comp usage?

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 30 September 2021 03:37:08 andy pugh wrote:

> On Thu, 30 Sept 2021 at 02:06, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > Is there such a doc?  URL?
>
> If you compiled it then it should have created a manpage.
>
> man jogaxis
no such luck on the rpi4
sudo updatedb
pi@rpi4:/media/pi/workspace $ locate jogaxisget
/media/pi/workspace/jogaxisget.comp
/usr/lib/linuxcnc/modules/jogaxisget.so

is all I got. I used:
sudo halcompile --install jogaxisget.comp

wrong arguments to halcompile? yes, had to use both --install 
AND --install-doc, so now I have it.  Thanks Andy.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] jogaxisget.comp usage?

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 30 September 2021 06:47:21 Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Thursday 30 September 2021 03:37:08 andy pugh wrote:
> > On Thu, 30 Sept 2021 at 02:06, Gene Heskett 
>
> wrote:
> > > Is there such a doc?  URL?
> >
> > If you compiled it then it should have created a manpage.
> >
> > man jogaxis
>
> no such luck on the rpi4
> sudo updatedb
> pi@rpi4:/media/pi/workspace $ locate jogaxisget
> /media/pi/workspace/jogaxisget.comp
> /usr/lib/linuxcnc/modules/jogaxisget.so
>
> is all I got. I used:
> sudo halcompile --install jogaxisget.comp
>
> wrong arguments to halcompile? yes, had to use both --install
> AND --install-doc, so now I have it.  Thanks Andy.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett.

And I find that it was already loadrt'd, and addf'd to jog-thread in 
postgui.hal. So its loaded and its pins show up for halmeter's list.

But common sense says there should be "motion" signals to "net" it 
to/from, but I can't find anything that shows the axis radio buttons to 
halmeter except axisui for x and z as a status output. So its in there, 
but whats next?

What I want to do is make the ui buttons follow the activity of the dials 
that have replaced the hand cranks, so that if I enable the Z dial, and 
move the nachine with it, the uui radio buttons follow it, thereby 
steering a touchoff to the correct axis automaticly.

When dooing setup touchoffs, its very frustrating and train of thought 
destroying to have to remember to grab the mouse and enable the correct 
axis you are thinking you are applying it to the axis you just jogged to 
position, and discover the touchoff point you just found and applied, 
has been applied to the other axis, destroying the work already done to 
calibrate it. So making those buttons think you are doing all this from 
the keyboard is the target here.

Those dials have their own speed controls and jog distance per click, so 
are many times more accurately done than jogging with the keyboard can 
do.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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[Emc-users] I think I found the last dependency on the pi

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings all;

I have been looking at convert failures while makeing the docs while 
building linuxcnc on the pi. And assumed that if it was building the 
debs, the debs were up to date. Assume, that magic word to assign blame.

Then I noticed, finally that the internal dates in the docs were over 2 
years old. The dependency checker in debhelper wasn't triggeriing on any 
of that.

I posted about the convert failures but did not receive any reply, so 
this morning I fired up synaptic and installed anything that looked like 
it would be involved with doc processing, and got rid of the convert 
failures and generated up to date docs too.

git cloned a new copy from github, fixed my build failures.

So there is a missing dependency somewhere in this list of stuff I 
installed this morning. That list is, from synaptic's history:

Installed the following packages:
2to3 (3.7.3-1)
a2ps (1:4.14-4)
blahtexml (0.9-1.1+b1)
conv-tools (20160905-2)
dbtoepub (0+svn9904-1)
dh-make (2.201802)
docbook2x (0.8.8-17+b1)
doclifter (2.18-1)
dos2unix (7.4.0-1)
enscript (1.6.5.90-3)
gnuhtml2latex (0.4-3)
libplot2c2 (2.6-10)
libtext-unidecode-perl (1.30-1)
libxerces-c3.2 (3.2.2+debian-1+deb10u1)
plotutils (2.6-10)
texinfo (6.5.0.dfsg.1-4+b1)

So somewhere in that list is at least one dependency 
dh_checkdependencies(sp?) does not find.

More on jogaxisget later as I find it, seems halui is involved and I 
wasn't looking there. Oldtimers at work I guess.

>From the looks it would appear that a runtest should be added to 
runtests.

Thanks all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] Pi4 wont' talk to MESA 7i92H

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 02 October 2021 01:51:53 John Dammeyer wrote:

> I had the Pi4 with LinuxCNC working with the MESA card including even
> interfacing to the CANUSB and showing Inputs on the AXIS screen.
>
> Because the WiFi connection is crappy where my lab bench is I removed
> the Ethernet to the MESA and connected to my network.  Reset the
> Ethernet to be automatically assigned an IP and turned off the Wifi.
>
> Next, in order to get into the Pi4 I installed samba.  After that lots
> of drag and drop and working on getting some Lazarus Free Pascal
> Software running with both a HAT with the MCP2515 and also the CANUSB.
>
> With all that done it was time to make it a LinuxCNC module again.   I
> enabled the WiFi, reconnected the MESA card, set up the Ethernet
> default IP to 192.168.1.121 which is what LinuxCNC expects according
> to the error messages.  But for some reason the MESA won't connect. 
> Powering it shows the power LED.  The 4 LEDs go on in sequence on one
> direction and then the other after which only LED #4 stays on.  There
> are a few blinky LEDs on the Ethernet connector.
>
> I'm stuck.   What's the next step to get this working again?
>
> Thanks
> John

Your first and probably fatal mistake is using samba. Too many windows 
translations and throwaways in a samba path. I haven't used it in over a 
decade and life is so much easier now.

Here I use ssh -Y user@machinename[:/path] for all that and it just 
works.

For moving files from machine to machine, I created an /sshnet
subdir, populated it with the machine names, and mount the lot of them in 
one swell foop, using this script in my personal bin directory:

#!/bin/bash
sshfs gene@sixty40://sshnet/sixty40
sshfs gene@GO704:/  /sshnet/GO704
sshfs pi@rpi4:/ /sshnet/rpi4
sshfs gene@TLM://sshnet/TLM
sshfs gene@dddprint:/   /sshnet/dddprint

edit to suit your situation. The command is the left, the mount point is 
the right and you can repeat it at any time because sshfs will skip 
redoing the mount if the mountpoint is not empty.

you will need to use the user pw to connect to each of those machines, 
and if root is needed, you must copy (I use mc for all that) the file to 
someplace the user has rights to, then switch to the workspace you are 
also logged into and become root to put or access that file where it 
needs to go.

To me it beats nfs4 as its 100% dependable, much easier to setup, and 
beats samba senseless. You'll get some stuff about keyfiles (say yes)
the first time you do this.  You can remove samba/cifs from your systems 
unless you are addicted to the windows koolaid.

I only own one winderz machine, it functions as the Smith Chart display 
for a redpitaya Vector Network Analizer I use for tuning an AM radio 
stations tower.  Just one of my "other" talents. Might be 100 of us in 
the whole country. That machine stays in the truck and is not normally 
part of my home network.

Take care John.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] Pi4 wont' talk to MESA 7i92H

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 02 October 2021 03:25:45 John Dammeyer wrote:

> BTW, my /etc/dhcpcd.conf has
>
> interface eth0
> static ip_address=192.168.1.121
> static routers=
> static domain_name_servers=
> static domain_search=
> noipv6
>
> and
>
>
> pi@linuxcnc:~ $ ifconfig
> eth0: flags=4163  mtu 1500
> inet6 fe80::dea6:32ff:fe1e:30f1  prefixlen 64  scopeid
> 0x20 ether dc:a6:32:1e:30:f1  txqueuelen 1000  (Ethernet)
> RX packets 1  bytes 64 (64.0 B)
> RX errors 0  dropped 0  overruns 0  frame 0
> TX packets 33  bytes 4919 (4.8 KiB)
> TX errors 0  dropped 0 overruns 0  carrier 0  collisions 0
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
> > Sent: October-01-21 10:52 PM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: [Emc-users] Pi4 wont' talk to MESA 7i92H
> >
> > I had the Pi4 with LinuxCNC working with the MESA card including
> > even interfacing to the CANUSB and showing Inputs on the AXIS
> > screen.
> >
> > Because the WiFi connection is crappy where my lab bench is I
> > removed the Ethernet to the MESA and connected to my network. Reset
> > the Ethernet to be automatically assigned an IP and turned off the
> > Wifi.
> >
> > Next, in order to get into the Pi4 I installed samba.  After that
> > lots of drag and drop and working on getting some Lazarus Free
> > Pascal Software running with both a HAT with the MCP2515 and also
> > the CANUSB.
> >
> > With all that done it was time to make it a LinuxCNC module again.  
> > I enabled the WiFi, reconnected the MESA card, set up the Ethernet
> > default IP to 192.168.1.121 which is what LinuxCNC expects according
> > to the error messages.  But for some reason the MESA won't connect. 
> > Powering it shows the power LED.  The 4 LEDs go on in sequence on
> > one direction and then the other after which only LED #4 stays on. 
> > There are a few blinky LEDs on the Ethernet connector.
> >
> > I'm stuck.   What's the next step to get this working again?
> >
> > Thanks
> > John

What does "ip route" say?

> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______
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> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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[Emc-users] jogaxisget is old .comp

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings all;

The attached file would be quite a bit easier to trace and hook up in 
a .hal file if it was subjected to the joints update script. There now 
exist in both the listings for halmeter, halshow and halscopeidentical 
names for signals I need, some of which I have been able to exercise to 
prove they would work, but some, like jogs, don't seem to be valid 
signals although they'll show in halshow too.

signals I have not managed to find would be the input to axisui? that 
will trigger a change in the radio buttons for active axis indication in 
the axis gui.

It would be helpfull if this old style .comp file was converted with the 
axis/joint splitter script. Can this be done?

Thanks a bunch.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
//jogaxisget.comp:
// sudo halcompile --install --install-doc jogaxisget.comp
component jogaxisget "determines which axis is jogging";

pin in bit Xin0 "axis.x.kb-jog-active";
pin in bit Xin1;

pin in bit Yin0 "axis.y.kb-jog-active";
pin in bit Yin1;

pin in bit Zin0 "axis.z.kb-jog-active";
pin in bit Zin1;

pin in bit Ain0 "axis.a.kb-jog-active";
pin in bit Ain1;

pin out bit Xtrigger  ;
pin out bit Ytrigger  ;
pin out bit Ztrigger  ;
pin out bit Atrigger  ;

pin out bit activeX ;
pin out bit activeY ;
pin out bit activeZ ;
pin out bit activeA ;

pin in bit Xverify =FALSE "axisui.Xisactive";
pin in bit Yverify =FALSE "axisui.Yisactive";
pin in bit Zverify =FALSE "axisui.Zisactive";
pin in bit Averify =FALSE "axisui.Aisactive";

variable hal_bit_t  prev_Xtrigger = FALSE;
variable hal_bit_t  prev_Ytrigger = FALSE;
variable hal_bit_t  prev_Ztrigger = FALSE;
variable hal_bit_t  prev_Atrigger = FALSE;

license "GPL";
function _;
;;
FUNCTION(_) {

 if (( Xin0 && !Xin1 ) || ( Xin1 && !Xin0 )) {/* XOR2 axisX */
 Xtrigger = 1;
 } else {
 Xtrigger = 0;
 }

 if (( Yin0 && !Yin1 ) || ( Yin1 && !Yin0 )) {/* XOR2 axisY */
 Ytrigger = 1;
 } else {
 Ytrigger = 0;
 }


 if (( Zin0 && !Zin1 ) || ( Zin1 && !Zin0 )) {/* XOR2 axisZ */
 Ztrigger = 1;
 } else {
 Ztrigger = 0;
 }

 if (( Ain0 && !Ain1 ) || ( Ain1 && !Ain0 )) {/* XOR2 axisA */
 Atrigger = 1;
 } else {
 Atrigger = 0;
 }


 if(!!Xtrigger != !!prev_Xtrigger) /* Xtrigger has changed */
 {
 activeX = 1;
 if(!!Xverify) {prev_Xtrigger = Xtrigger; activeX = 0;}
 }


 if(!!Ytrigger != !!prev_Ytrigger) /* Ytrigger has changed */
 {
 activeY = 1;
 if(!!Yverify) {prev_Ytrigger = Ytrigger; activeY = 0;}
 }


 if(!!Ztrigger != !!prev_Ztrigger) /* Ztrigger has changed */
 {
 activeZ = 1;
 if(!!Zverify) {prev_Ztrigger = Ztrigger; activeZ = 0;}
 }

 if(!!Atrigger != !!prev_Atrigger) /* Atrigger has changed */
 {
 activeA = 1;
 if(!!Averify) {prev_Atrigger = Atrigger; activeA = 0;}
 }

}
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Re: [Emc-users] Pi4 wont' talk to MESA 7i92H

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 02 October 2021 12:55:41 John Dammeyer wrote:

> Gene,
> See below for ip route and solution.
>
> > From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> >
> > > > I'm stuck.   What's the next step to get this working again?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > > John
> >
> > What does "ip route" say?
>
> Here's the result of the ip route but notice it's showing wlan0 so
> that's perfectly alright.
>
> default via 192.168.0.2 dev wlan0 proto dhcp src 192.168.0.97 metric
> 303 192.168.0.0/24 dev wlan0 proto dhcp scope link src 192.168.0.97
> metric 303
>
> The WiFi is working with the system.  Neither the HAL file (with
> 192.168.1.121)  nor the jumpers on the MESA have been changed. $
> loadrt hostmot2
> loadrt hm2_eth board_ip="192.168.1.121" config=" num_encoders=0
> num_pwmgens=1 n$ setp   hm2_7i92.0.watchdog.timeout_ns 500
>
> The only thing that happened over the last week was the hardwired
> Ethernet because at night, here in our neighbourhood, everyone starts
> watching movies on their WiFi based cable modems and ability to reach
> across the house from the WiFi router to the office becomes
> problematic.  So to do the apt-get update/upgrade etc to the OS it was
> more reliable to swap out the mesa for a wired connection.
>
> My Pi2 with Octopi to the 3D printer also had to be connected with
> wired because it became too unreliable.  At the moment it's too
> difficult to move the WiFi Ethernet Router  into the center of the
> house.
>
> And then it hit me.  Instead of suspecting samba I should have set the
> eth0 ip on the Pi4 to be 192.168.1.1.
>
> Did that, cycled power to the MESA, lights did the same blinky thing
> and then kept doing blinky patterns.  And now the Pi4 reports that
> it's connected and when running LinuxCNC works.

Good, you can probably change that and I would for wlan0, but wired, who 
cares. But wlan0 needs all the security you can muster.

> eth0: flags=4163  mtu 1500
> inet 192.168.1.1  netmask 255.255.255.0  broadcast
> 192.168.1.255 ether dc:a6:32:1e:30:f1  txqueuelen 1000  (Ethernet)
> RX packets 509121  bytes 48873834 (46.6 MiB)
> RX errors 0  dropped 0  overruns 0  frame 0
> TX packets 1018296  bytes 93686274 (89.3 MiB)
> TX errors 0  dropped 0 overruns 0  carrier 0  collisions 0
>
> And none of the rest of my wiring on the bench has been disturbed
> because the MIST/COOLANT ON/OFF buttons again switch on relays on a
> CANopen module connected via a Lawicel CANUSB.
>
> The Pi4 now is wearing a MCP2515 CAN HAT so next step is to try using
> SocketCAN to access it instead of the CANUSB dongle although for the
> standard PC running the mill it will have to be the CANUSB.

I do not see the route address listed anyplace above.

On my pi4, using eth0, ip route returns:
pi@rpi4:/media/pi/workspace $ ip route
default via 192.168.xx.1 dev eth0 onlink
192.168.xx.0/24 dev eth0 proto kernel scope link src 192.168.xx.13

Where the routing address shown as "default via" above is my home router, 
a now elderly buffalo netfinity thats been reflashed to dd-wrt. Nothing 
gets thru from the net that was not requested by my machines unless 
looking at my web page. Thats on this machine, so I have total control. 
No commercials unless I write them. ;o)

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] Pi4 wont' talk to MESA 7i92H

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 02 October 2021 16:05:05 John Dammeyer wrote:

> Hi Gene,
> I have no desire to have the Ethernet connection on the milling side
> connected to anything but the MESA 7i92H.
>
> > I do not see the route address listed anyplace above.
>
> Now that it's working here's the updated ip route
> 192.168.0.2 is my router for the internal network and it's a assigned
> 192.168.0.97 to the Pi4 WiFi connection.
>
> pi@linuxcnc:~ $ ip route
> default via 192.168.0.2 dev wlan0 proto dhcp src 192.168.0.97 metric
> 303 192.168.0.0/24 dev wlan0 proto dhcp scope link src 192.168.0.97
> metric 303 192.168.1.0/24 dev eth0 proto dhcp scope link src
> 192.168.1.1 metric 202
>
> I'm not sure what the two 192.168.x.0/24 with the link to the Pi4
> 192.168.0.97 for WiFi and 192.168.1.1 for hardwire Ethernet actually
> means.
>
> On your system below it looks like you have your house network also
> connected to the machine control network?
>
> John

Uh, no John, I was very early in trying a pi3, so I'm useing a 7i90HD 
setup for SPI drive, which leaves eth0 free for normal net use.  The 
gotcha with the 7i90 is that its fpga is connected directly to the IO, 
and that then requires 3 each 7i42TA's which buffer and protect the fpga 
from external noises. So while I have IO to throw away, it costs lots 
more than your 7i92. But the 7i42TA's also give the regular green screw 
terminals to wire it up with. Thats a huge plus and worth the cost IMO.

SPI is fast, it sends 32 bit packets to the 7i90HD at around 42 megabaud, 
and gets the answers back from the card at 25 megabaud.

> > On my pi4, using eth0, ip route returns:
> > pi@rpi4:/media/pi/workspace $ ip route
> > default via 192.168.xx.1 dev eth0 onlink
> > 192.168.xx.0/24 dev eth0 proto kernel scope link src 192.168.xx.13
> >
> > Where the routing address shown as "default via" above is my home
> > router, a now elderly buffalo netfinity thats been reflashed to
> > dd-wrt. Nothing gets thru from the net that was not requested by my
> > machines unless looking at my web page. Thats on this machine, so I
> > have total control. No commercials unless I write them. ;o)
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett.
>
Take care John.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] jogaxisget is old .comp

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 02 October 2021 14:50:09 Gene Heskett wrote:
I'm being ignored, why?
> Greetings all;
>
> The attached file would be quite a bit easier to trace and hook up in
> a .hal file if it was subjected to the joints update script. There now
> exist in both the listings for halmeter, halshow and halscopeidentical
> names for signals I need, some of which I have been able to exercise
> to prove they would work, but some, like jogs, don't seem to be valid
> signals although they'll show in halshow too.

I have it hooked up, I think, but its not working, because applying a 
logic true to "halui.axis.z.select" has no effect when the gui is 
showing x button is active. And vice-versa.  Anybody have an idea why?

I have this in postgui.hal
loadrt jogaxisget
addf jogaxisget.0   jog-thread # a 200 hz thread
[...]

# narrow 300ms plus pulse from X dial only if active
# signame 1st used in main .hal file
net  xretrigger jogaxisget.0.Xin1   halui.axis.x.select

# narrow 300ms plus pulse from Z dial only if active
# signame 1st used in main .hal file
net  zretrigger jogaxisget.0.Zin1   halui.axis.z.select  

net  axis:0:kb  jogaxisget.0.Xin0   joint.0.kb-jog-active
net  axis:1:kb  jogaxisget.0.Zin0   joint.1.kb-jog-active

net  Xisactive  jogaxisget.0.Xverifyaxisui.jog.x
net  Zisactive  jogaxisget.0.Zverify    axisui.jog.z

Thanks for any advice.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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[Emc-users] halshow:watch doesn't

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings all;

In my quest to find what does work, I tried to setup a watchlist file, 
named my.halshow.  And I can load it, w/o errors, but the window remains 
blank.

Anything else I need to make it work?

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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[Emc-users] halshow:watch doesn't

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings all;

In my quest to find what does work, I tried to setup a watchlist file, 
named my.halshow.  And I can load it, w/o errors, but the window remains 
blank.

Anything else I need to make it work?

Thank you all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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[Emc-users] Another question I haven't asked but should, re incorporating my dials into the active axis buttons.

[Gene Heskett]

Hello all;

Axis apparently hasn't the resources to do what I want, and which I am 
convinced other users with controlling pendents would also find very 
handy.

Is there anther gui besides axis, that can do what I want?

What I want is for a signal from one of the dials that can move this 
lathe, to update the last active axis button. These signals are only 
activated if the dial is enabled AND being turned. They are not 
generated if the dials enabling timer has timed out. The result would be 
equivalent, and identical to jogging the machine with the keyboard 
resulting in a touchoff always being applied to the last axis moved.

If there is another gui that *can* be made to do that, please name it, 
and I will attempt to learn it.

Thanks all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] Another question I haven't asked but should, re incorporating my dials into the active axis buttons.

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 07 October 2021 22:38:39 John Dammeyer wrote:

> > From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> > Subject: [Emc-users] Another question I haven't asked but should, re
> > incorporating my dials into the active axis buttons.
> >
> > Hello all;
> >
> > Axis apparently hasn't the resources to do what I want, and which I
> > am convinced other users with controlling pendents would also find
> > very handy.
> >
> > Is there anther gui besides axis, that can do what I want?
> >
> > What I want is for a signal from one of the dials that can move this
> > lathe, to update the last active axis button. These signals are only
> > activated if the dial is enabled AND being turned. They are not
> > generated if the dials enabling timer has timed out. The result
> > would be equivalent, and identical to jogging the machine with the
> > keyboard resulting in a touchoff always being applied to the last
> > axis moved.
> >
> > If there is another gui that *can* be made to do that, please name
> > it, and I will attempt to learn it.
> >
> > Thanks all.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett.
>
> Hi Gene,
>
> I agree with you that the pendant should change the radio button. 
> It's a human factors user issue that needs to be fixed.  The problem
> is as far as I can see the pendant doesn't send information when the
> dial is switched to another axis.
>
Separate per axis dials here John. Located on the carriages apron.

> And if you think about it, the switch itself doesn't rotate back to X
> if you have it on Z and jog X on the keyboard.  So you're right that
> the radio button can only change if a step message is sent for a
> specific axis.

Presently ONLY by the keyboard or a mouse click, both of which are about 
as handy as a $3 bill.

Which I can do but only to halui, which also registers it in its halshow 
section, but axis ignores that halui stuff.

> I did start looking into it but haven't had time over the last little
> while.   I think this should be possible but it requires a change to
> AXIS to make the radio buttons read/write and available which it looks
> like they aren't.  And the pendant software has to be able to then set
> the radio button.

Which is exactly what I want to do. And no one has given me a reason this 
cannot be done. Someone, Chris I think, made the argument that it could 
get out of synch, and what I want to do assures that synchronization is 
maintained by assuring the radio buttons follow that last moved by rule.

The present situation puts it out of synch unless the mouse is used to 
click on the correct button, or the keyboard jog key is used, and the 
keyboard jog key moves the machine off the point I just set with the 
dials. The dials have their own per click size settings that are not 
affected by the axis jog speed sliders. I can set movement as small 
as .0001" per click, or up to 20 thou, each dial independently, I can 
set it for more in hal, but even at 20 thou that machine can't keep up 
with a good spin of the dials. There are, acc the docs, two modes for 
jogging, one is absolute value, the other stops when the dial stops, but 
that just feels wrong. And takes longer to detect the stop, overshooting 
the desired position.

I can even set up mseeages to remind me to use the mouse to correct the 
radio buttons, but that gets me a message per click, and would get 
tiresome clearing all those at 400 per full turn, particularly when an 
in pin in axisui would only need two target additions in the net 
statements from the click detectors in my hal file to solve this problem 
correctly and forever.

> Like you I've been caught with touching off what I think is the Z
> because I used the pendant to sneak up to the surface but on AXIS it's
> still at X.  Then press start and watch it head at full speed toward
> the table because Z is incorrect.

Or in the lathe case, run a tool with a $20 carbide chip in it into a 
chuck jaw spinning at whatever rpm, with my bronze bushings and only a 1 
horse motor, 600 revs is tops but its still a bent tool and a shattered 
chip even at 30 revs.

Eggzactly John, with EGG$penive broken tooling being part of the 
hill-air-itty ensuing. Absolutely nothing hilarious about broken 
tooling.

The keyboard inputs are only true for the duration of the keypress and I 
can't make a good argument to deny me the ability to "or" that signal 
from my dials to do exactly the same as the last moved by logic in axis 
that now runs those buttons.

I'm not using the inputs in halui, but testing a year or so back, using 
halui to move the machine also fails to update the axis buttons. Fixing 
that would also enable this to become automatic once the "net"

Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 08 October 2021 15:22:23 Peter Hodgson wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I'm hoping someone with more electrical control experience than me may
> be able to offer advice on why I am seeing occasional rogue index
> pulses which are messing up my G76 cycles on larger threads.
>
> The Halscope below shows an example of the occasional ghost index
> pulse which can create a new 'thread start' and trash my parts as
> photo above.
>
> A schematic of the encoder setup which is a quadrature 500ppr
> incremental encoder can be downloaded here:
>
>
> https://www.purbrookengineering.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=
>article&id=11
>
>
> The signal goes to a Pico Systems USC board via a voltage level
> shifter. We have a 0.75uF capacitor to filter the 5v supply to the
> voltage shifter and 1kohm resistors in series on the input signals
> from the encoder. The encoder cable is shielded, grounded only at the
> encoder case end and is not close/parallel to any power cables. The
> 12v supply to the encoder is from a voltage regulator and the 5v
> supply to the level shifter is from the Pico control board.
>
> Jon @ Pico provided me with excellent support to get me this far with
> the setup which now cuts smaller threads quite reliably but with
> larger threads on my small lathe I need many passes and I haven't been
> able to get rid of these occasional ghost pulses which eventually
> cause a bad pass.
>
> I think these pulses are 'noise' but I cannot find what might be
> causing them.
>
> Any suggestions please?

Most noise is caused by ground loops and less than optimum wireing 
practice.

Good practice means all grounding is done at a single bolt, and nothing 
is allowed to be grounded /anyplace else/.  Shielded wiring can help, 
but the shielding conductor is only grounded to this single bolt, with 
the far end of the shield wire cut off and insulated so it cannot touch 
anything on the far end. This limitation includes the power cord or 
supply hookups, there the buildings static neutral connection, done by 
the third rounded pin in the power plug here in the states (you didn't 
say where you are) must also be isolated such that once that conductor 
is in the equipment, it is isolated from ohmic contact to the machine 
frame anyplace but at this single bolt.

Done correctly, a lightning strike on the buildings service may cause 
everything in the building to bounce 2 or 3 hundred thousand volts, but 
if wired properly according to those rules, it all bounces in unison and 
the voltage on the 5 volt logic line will still be 5 volts if measured 
to this bolt.  In other words, no damage.

I am a C.E.T., a retired broadcast chief engineer and I routinely bypass 
any encoder inputs that would be routed thru opto-isolators, connecting 
them directly to the inputs by cutting and bridging around any opto's in 
a BOB input circuit in order to get the high speed signals needed for 
good control back into LinusCNC. 3 machines in the garage, and one in a 
shop building in the back yard. Direct hits on the pole holding my 
supply can have probably hit more than once a year for the 31 years I've 
been here.

I lost a computer modem about 29 years ago, so I took the house wiring to 
this room apart, which turned out to have been done by the flunky that 
wired this kit house at the National Homes factory in 1970, and was 
likely never on the same acre as a proper crimping tool, putting it back 
together properly, then 15 years ago, I added a 200 amp service, making 
the house a 60 amp branch. Lightning has not damaged anything here in 
that 29 years. I was typing, in this chair, when one strike occurred. I 
am not grounded as I have a full basement under me. I took a doorknob 
spark from the wired keyboard into a finger. Got my attention. So now I 
use wireless mice and keyboards. On everything.

Follow the "star" ground rule I've outlined above, all radiating from 
that single bolt, and I expect your problem will be solved. If not, get 
back to me and we'll see if we can find it. A service oscilloscope with 
30 megahertz or more bandwidth that can be set to trigger on the noise 
so you can send me pix of the noise would be most handy.

> Pete
>
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Gene Heskett]

 the
> signals.  Differential instead of single ended so common mode noise is
> cancelled out.
>
> But running that 12V signal through a 1K resistor into what is
> essentially a 2.4M ohm load won't stop noise from being picked up and
> transmitted through the 74HC4050.

Absolutely John, throw in the substrate scr problem and its going to 
bite, somewhere, sometime.

> My two cents.
> John
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: October-08-21 4:52 PM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses
> >
> > I'll say what Gene said.  I'd bet on a groubing issue.  The schmatic
> > has an error, a groubd wire ismissing and also shows random crossing
> > grounds. Run everything back to the power supply minus post.
> >
> > Also you be much better if the sheild was grounded to the controller
> > end. Never us a machine and it's mounting bolts as grounds.
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Chris Albertson
> > Redondo Beach, California
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> ___
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Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 09 October 2021 04:20:48 Peter Hodgson wrote:

> Thank you Gene.
>
> I’m in the UK and lightning strikes are unlikely where I am but I
> guess should always be a consideration.
>
> The grounding in my machine is not currently from one ‘star’ point so
> I will correct that. Shielding is only terminated at one end.
>
> Is the single point best on the machine frame or in the control panel
> chassis or does it not matter?

The ground point I am using now, an inch of 10-32 bolt tightened solidly 
into a drilled hole in the bottom of the box. Its hangingf on the back 
of a pole frame I installed to hold a 4 foot led shop lamp over the bed 
of the lathe as it just inside the garage door, and the door moves over 
the top of it when open. That box contains the psu's and motor drivers, 
and all io cabling goes by it on it way out to the lathe. The pi, the 
7i90HD and the three 7i42TA's are all in another, slightly smaller box 
mounted on the outside of the rusty boxes lid, along with a corfam brick 
wall filter between the AC feed and a 5 volt, 5 amp supply that runs the 
pi and the interface cards. All grounds in the controller box are 
connected to this bolt on the way by it.

The pi and the interfaceing cards are all made into a one piece assembly, 
connected stair step fashion by nylon standoffs.  There is on the right 
side of that rusty box, a 650WA cyberpower ups that doesn't have enough 
load to see it, and has a 2 minute shutdown time that apparently isn't 
adjustable, but it only has to hold up 5 seconds as there is a 20kw nat 
gas fired generator in the back yard. I installed it several yearss ago 
so the wife would have nonstop power for her oxygen generator as she had 
COPD, but she has now passed on.

Frankly its all a big kluge, but it works. I, since I had i/o to throw 
away have another small box with two 40 qmp 600 volt crydom SSR's in it 
that controls all motor power to the machine but not to the pi and 
interfacing, so its on 24/7 but the machine is powerless until I start 
LinuxCNC and hit F1 to allow control, and F2 to enable motion.

And that is all interlocked in the hal file with the fault signals from 
the new, 3 phase stepper/servo motors and drivers I recently installed. 
If you are using steppers, these are the "next big thing", and cost 
around $130 per axis.

I can turn the chuck to put a jaw in the tools way, jog left to approach 
the chuck and jog the tool into the chuck jaw, the driver detects the 
increased load and kills its outputs, and sends a fault signal back to 
LinuxCNC which shuts the machines AC power off by toggling F2.

If it ever happens while working, empty the qcth post, hit F2 to re-enale 
motion, fix why it shut down, rehome the machine, put the tool back on 
the post and hit R again. But it has yet to do that in normal operation. 
The final test is whether it Just Works, and it does.

The spring in the system bounces it back about 10 thou clear of the jaw, 
and does the the shutdown without damaging the carbide chip in the tool 
if the jog speed isn't excessive.

These 3 phase motor controllers use the error from an encoder in the 
motor, fed back to the controller, to control motor current, and the 
motors run quite cool, not to mention they doubled the machines rapid 
speeds. And they move a lot like casper the ghost. Very quiet. The 2 
phase motors I took off regulaly shook tools off the machine onto the 
floor.  At my age and the abuse I've put on this old carcass, bending 
over to pick up a tool hurts. Avoiding that is  definite plus. :o)

> It’s great to have the support of such experienced senior engineers !!

They can jail me in texas for calling myself an "engineer". Born with a 
higher IQ, I quit school just passed the 8th grade and went to work 
fixing the then brand new things called televisions for a living.  That 
was something over 70 years ago. Its been quite a ride and I still have 
my hands on the steering wheel. Some failing parts have been replaced 
though, like a pacemaker and a TAVR heart valve.

Take care Pete.
>
> > On 8 Oct 2021, at 23:34, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> >
> > On Friday 08 October 2021 15:22:23 Peter Hodgson wrote:
> >> Hello All,
> >>
> >> I'm hoping someone with more electrical control experience than me
> >> may be able to offer advice on why I am seeing occasional rogue
> >> index pulses which are messing up my G76 cycles on larger threads.
> >>
> >> The Halscope below shows an example of the occasional ghost index
> >> pulse which can create a new 'thread start' and trash my parts as
> >> photo above.
> >>
> >> A schematic of the encoder setup which is a quadrature 500ppr
> >> incremental encoder can be downloaded here:
> >>
> >>
> >> https://www.purbrooken

Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 09 October 2021 15:22:29 Peter Hodgson wrote:

> Hi John,
>
> Thanks for sharing the drawing. Yes, I would like to get things
> properly drawn when I get the time.
>
> In the mean time... would you mind having a quick look at the
> revised schematic on the following link to check I have placed the
> capacitors you suggested in the correct place when using the HCPL2631
> ??
>
> https://www.purbrookengineering.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=
>article&id=11
>
>
> I notice on your drawing you have 'Earth' and FGND. What's the
> difference?
>
> Pete
>
That looks better, as long as the opto's are fast enough. Verify that 
with a o-scope. And the halscope is not fast enough, use a real one. But 
please don't use yellow on white for the signal wires, they disappear in 
the pdf. :(

> On 09/10/2021 18:18, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > Hi Peter,
> > I find it helps to draw a wiring diagram of where things are wired. 
> > That’s different from a schematic which just shows how things are
> > connected.
> >
> > For example, I've attached the old schematic of my mill wiring
> > (before I removed the two HP-UHU drives and wired in the quadrature
> > encoder for the spindle into the second Chinese BoB).  Note to self:
> >  Really must update now that I have AC servos on everything.
> >
> > I have colour codes on there for wiring.  But it does not show the
> > actual wiring paths.  For example the 24V comes out of the Power
> > Supply and splits in two directions.  One to the DIN Rail for  the
> > MiniBoB->STMBL drive, the STMBL drive and 24V-16V UHU power supply. 
> > From there another DIN rail set of terminal blocks to run power out
> > to the Bergerda Spindle Interface and now the Bergerda interface
> > boards.
> >
> > But the drawing doesn't actually show the DIN rails or wire lengths
> > so there's no way to see if the 24V system has ground loops etc. 
> > Not from the Schematic.
> >
> > So I still have to create a new 'mechanical' wiring diagram that
> > shows where rather than how things are connected.
> >
> > John
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Peter Hodgson [mailto:peterjohnhodg...@gmail.com]
> >> Sent: October-09-21 1:38 AM
> >> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses
> >>
> >> Thanks Chris, yes, I will change the shielding ground to the
> >> controller end and isolate the case.
> >>
> >> Is it best practice to run the 5v and 12v �grounds� back to the
> >> original 24v power supply 0v?
> >>
> >>> On 9 Oct 2021, at 00:53, Chris Albertson
> >>>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> ?I'll say what Gene said.  I'd bet on a groubing issue.  The
> >>> schmatic has an error, a groubd wire ismissing and also shows
> >>> random crossing grounds. Run everything back to the power supply
> >>> minus post.
> >>>
> >>> Also you be much better if the sheild was grounded to the
> >>> controller end. Never us a machine and it's mounting bolts as
> >>> grounds.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>> Chris Albertson
> >>> Redondo Beach, California
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> Emc-users mailing list
> >>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> ___
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> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Gene Heskett]

BL drive, the STMBL drive and 24V-16V UHU power
> > supply.  From there another DIN rail set of terminal blocks to run
> > power out to the Bergerda Spindle Interface and now the Bergerda
> > interface boards.
> >
> > > But the drawing doesn't actually show the DIN rails or wire
> > > lengths so there's no way to see if the 24V system has ground
> > > loops etc.
> >
> > Not from the Schematic.
> >
> > > So I still have to create a new 'mechanical' wiring diagram that
> > > shows where rather than how things are connected.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >> -Original Message-
> > >> From: Peter Hodgson [mailto:peterjohnhodg...@gmail.com]
> > >> Sent: October-09-21 1:38 AM
> > >> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses
> > >>
> > >> Thanks Chris, yes, I will change the shielding ground to the
> > >> controller end and isolate the case.
> > >>
> > >> Is it best practice to run the 5v and 12v ?grounds? back to the
> > >> original 24v power supply 0v?
> > >>
> > >>> On 9 Oct 2021, at 00:53, Chris Albertson
> > >>>  wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> ?I'll say what Gene said.  I'd bet on a groubing issue.  The
> > >>> schmatic has an error, a groubd wire ismissing and also shows
> > >>> random crossing grounds. Run everything back to the power supply
> > >>> minus post.
> > >>>
> > >>> Also you be much better if the sheild was grounded to the
> > >>> controller end. Never us a machine and it's mounting bolts as
> > >>> grounds.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>>
> > >>> Chris Albertson
> > >>> Redondo Beach, California
> > >>>
> > >>> ___
> > >>> Emc-users mailing list
> > >>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > >>
> > >> ___
> > >> Emc-users mailing list
> > >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ___
> > >> Emc-users mailing list
> > >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] halshow:watch doesn't

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 07 October 2021 20:46:31 Gene Heskett wrote:

ping?

> Greetings all;
>
> In my quest to find what does work, I tried to setup a watchlist file,
> named my.halshow.  And I can load it, w/o errors, but the window
> remains blank.
>
> Anything else I need to make it work?
>
> Thank you all.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Gene Heskett]

t;> wired.  That�s different from a schematic which just shows how
> >>> things
> >>
> >> are connected.
> >>
> >>> For example, I've attached the old schematic of my mill wiring
> >>> (before I removed the two HP-UHU drives and wired in the
> >>
> >> quadrature encoder for the spindle into the second Chinese BoB). 
> >> Note to self:  Really must update now that I have AC servos on
> >> everything.
> >>
> >>> I have colour codes on there for wiring.  But it does not show the
> >>> actual wiring paths.  For example the 24V comes out of the
> >>
> >> Power Supply and splits in two directions.  One to the DIN Rail for
> >>  the MiniBoB->STMBL drive, the STMBL drive and 24V-16V UHU power
> >> supply.  From there another DIN rail set of terminal blocks to run
> >> power out to the Bergerda Spindle Interface and now the Bergerda
> >> interface boards.
> >>
> >>> But the drawing doesn't actually show the DIN rails or wire
> >>> lengths so there's no way to see if the 24V system has ground
> >>> loops etc.
> >>
> >> Not from the Schematic.
> >>
> >>> So I still have to create a new 'mechanical' wiring diagram that
> >>> shows where rather than how things are connected.
> >>>
> >>> John
> >>>
> >>>> -Original Message-
> >>>> From: Peter Hodgson [mailto:peterjohnhodg...@gmail.com]
> >>>> Sent: October-09-21 1:38 AM
> >>>> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks Chris, yes, I will change the shielding ground to the
> >>>> controller end and isolate the case.
> >>>>
> >>>> Is it best practice to run the 5v and 12v ?grounds? back to the
> >>>> original 24v power supply 0v?
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 9 Oct 2021, at 00:53, Chris Albertson
> >>>>>  wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ?I'll say what Gene said.  I'd bet on a groubing issue.  The
> >>>>> schmatic has an error, a groubd wire ismissing and also shows
> >>>>> random crossing grounds. Run everything back to the power supply
> >>>>> minus post.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Also you be much better if the sheild was grounded to the
> >>>>> controller end. Never us a machine and it's mounting bolts as
> >>>>> grounds.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Chris Albertson
> >>>>> Redondo Beach, California
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ___
> >>>>> Emc-users mailing list
> >>>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >>>>
> >>>> ___
> >>>> Emc-users mailing list
> >>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ___
> >>>> Emc-users mailing list
> >>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> ___
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Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 10 October 2021 13:20:52 John Dammeyer wrote:

> > From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> >
> >
> >
> > If the opto's are fast enough, you should be
> > fixed. A 500 ppr encoder s/b fine. A 1024 or 1000 requires a faster
> > opto.
>
> HI Gene,
> Comparing the cheap far east BoB optos with the HCPL2621 is apples and
> oranges.

The difference is cost, to the MBA between the engineer that designs it 
to work well, and the production floor manager buying the parts the MBA 
edits the BOM to use.  We ought to have a DOA reward for MBA's and their 
ilk.

> A 2500 line encoder still only creates 2500 pulses.  The quadrature
> just looks at two lines and 2 edges for 10,000 edges.  But the max
> speed of his encoder is 10,000 RPM which in RPS is 166.7 and would
> result in 417kHz which is 4% of the opto max 10 Mbps  capabilities if
> the encoder was 2500 line.

You've obviously done your homework, but I'm the guy who bought the $20 
bobs that didn't work. The $80 dollar version that really worked well 
from cnc4pc was discontinued a decade back.  But as a CET, I can usually 
fix the $20 version. :o)

> But his is 500 line so at 166.7 RPS is 83kHz which is 0.8% of opto
> capabilities.

Great!
>
> John
>
>
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 11 October 2021 15:49:43 Chris Albertson wrote:

> You could be correct.   High impedance is a recipe for noise.
>
> I had suggested a resistive divider just because it is simpler.  But
> you are right about providing a ground path.  A divider certainly
> would do that.   If an opto is really needed then use a  high-value
> resistor to ground to keep the line from floating and bleed off
> static.
>
> I also don't like the idea of grounding the shield on the encoder end
> as it makes it impossible to know the path from encoder housing back
> to true Earth ground.  It is "unanalyzable" (if such a word exists)  
> Running the shield to star ground point makes it easy to verify it is
> correct.

+100 Chris. Run a separate ground to the encoder from the star bolt, and 
connect the cables overall shield ONLY to that bolt. If that encoder 
uses the shield as its ground connection, toss it in the out bin, and 
get one that does have a separate ground wie going into it which is 
isolated from the metalic case. I would also verify that the encoder has 
a good ground to its metalic housing. Painted brackets are a recipe for 
failure. As are metallic shaft couplers. The elastomeric coupler that 
came with my omron, failed a year ago, and the coupling is now a couple 
layers of heat shrink with the inside layer of thermal glue. If it 
fails, replace it with a fresh copy. 50 cents maybe.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 11 October 2021 17:32:31 Peter Hodgson wrote:

> Thanks all for your continued support.
>
> I’ve now separated all the earth grounding to individual cables going
> to one bolt in the steel control enclosure  which is then connected
> directly to AC earth wire from the 240v outlet. I’ve also made a
> polycarbonate mounting bracket for the encoder housing so it’s
> insulated from the machine frame and terminated it’s screen to the
> same earth star bolt at the control panel end.
>
> I’m happy to have this now as best practice but it wasn’t the solution
> for the ghost pulses.
>
> Interestingly, I noticed that the earth cable coming from the spindle
> VFD screen made the encoder signal extremely noisy when it was in
> close proximity to the encoder cable. 

That smells like a ground loop. If disconnected at the star bolt, it 
should be an open circuit, to ground or anything else.

> Also, just for your info, the 
> stepper motors or drivers create a lot of ‘white noise’ on the shop
> radio when they are holding or running so I guess they are chucking
> out a lot of high frequency noise.

They do.

I generally run my motor cables in shielded cabling. The stepper drivers 
control the motor current by turning themselves on and off at an 
ultrasonic frequeny we don't hear. If you can find "starquad" cabing in 
a gage heavy enough it doesn't run warm at the motors current. It is 
actualy the gold standard microphone cable, a top quality microphone 
cable available in several gages, all VERY flexible, get the lowest gage 
number Suzan has. 22 gage IIRC. Ground the shielding drain wire at the 
star bolt, trim and insulate it at the motor end.
>
> It seems I have three options from here.
>
> 1) Change to the HPCL2631 opto isolators.
>
> 2) Change to the 74HC14 buffer. I think I will need resistance
> dividers with this as the max input in the datasheet suggests 6v so I
> will need to  drop the 12v encoder signal to <6v (?)
>
> 3) Try the existing 74HC4050 buffer with resistance dividers.
>
> I’ve got some components on order so I guess whichever turns up first
> will be the first I’ll try.
>
> Seems like I also need to find myself some sort of oscilloscope on
> eBay!

Digital storage will show you stuff that cannot be seen on an analogue 
scope. Definitely worth the extra sheckles. Some of this stuff is at 100 
or more megahertz. And tends to be very dim on a analog scope. I 
actually have 3, a 30 yo Hitachi 100 mhz dual trace analog, much better 
than a tek of the same vintage, a 5 yo digital with the same specs you 
can get for $300 or so today, and I just bought Siglents best, a 4 
trace, 350 mhz digital sampler. It also costs a down payment on a new 
small car. Inheritances are handy.

> I’ll keep you posted.

Please.

> Cheers,
>
> Pete
>
> > On 11 Oct 2021, at 21:11, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> >
> > On Monday 11 October 2021 15:49:43 Chris Albertson wrote:
> >> You could be correct.   High impedance is a recipe for noise.
> >> I had suggested a resistive divider just because it is simpler. 
> >> But you are right about providing a ground path.  A divider
> >> certainly would do that.   If an opto is really needed then use a 
> >> high-value resistor to ground to keep the line from floating and
> >> bleed off static.
> >> I also don't like the idea of grounding the shield on the encoder
> >> end as it makes it impossible to know the path from encoder housing
> >> back to true Earth ground.  It is "unanalyzable" (if such a word
> >> exists) Running the shield to star ground point makes it easy to
> >> verify it is correct.
> >
> > +100 Chris. Run a separate ground to the encoder from the star bolt,
> > and connect the cables overall shield ONLY to that bolt. If that
> > encoder uses the shield as its ground connection, toss it in the out
> > bin, and get one that does have a separate ground wie going into it
> > which is isolated from the metalic case. I would also verify that
> > the encoder has a good ground to its metalic housing. Painted
> > brackets are a recipe for failure. As are metallic shaft couplers.
> > The elastomeric coupler that came with my omron, failed a year ago,
> > and the coupling is now a couple layers of heat shrink with the
> > inside layer of thermal glue. If it fails, replace it with a fresh
> > copy. 50 cents maybe.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> > soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make th

Re: [Emc-users] halshow:watch doesn't

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 11 October 2021 17:54:21 andy pugh wrote:

> On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 at 01:55, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > > Anything else I need to make it work?
>
> Is this a problem in Master? It works in 2.8.

In Master, yes. It goes thru the motions, does not report any errors when 
loading the watch file, but the screen remains empty. I have not tested 
2.8.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] halshow:watch doesn't

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 11 October 2021 18:09:56 andy pugh wrote:

> On Mon, 11 Oct 2021 at 22:54, andy pugh  wrote:
> > Is this a problem in Master? It works in 2.8.
>
> ...And with a freshly-compiled master.
>
But not on this mornings master from the buildbot.

Here are the contents of my.halshow, and they do exist in the show screen:

pi@rpi4:/media/pi/workspace $ cat ~/linuxcnc/configs/sheldon-lathe/my.halshow
axisui.user.activeX
axisui.user.activeY
axisui.user.activeZ
axisui.user.Xisactive
axisui.user.Yisactive
axisui.user.Zisactive

Those are all from the jogaxisget module. That module is actually loaded in
postgui.hal.

And they are there in the "show" screen

Thats from the buildbot, but I compiled it yesterday, getting identical 
results. It also doesn't work on a 4 core i5 Dell running your morning buildbot 
buster.

> Are you sure that the pins to be watched exist at the point that you
> are loading the my.halshow?

See above.

Thanks Andy.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] halshow:watch doesn't

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 12 October 2021 04:45:10 andy pugh wrote:

> On Tue, 12 Oct 2021 at 03:23, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > But not on this mornings master from the buildbot.
>
> If you start from the command line, is anything logged when you open
> the my.halshow?
>
No, nothing on the 2nd try, first try I accidently clicked off the edge 
of the window as I was expanding to to get individual lines w/o 
wrapping, hiding halshow behind the terminal window, and my efforts to 
bring it fwd did show a bunch of mouse garbage on the screen. I finally 
clicked on the blinking blue bar for it at the bottom of my tde 
workspace, which brought it fwd, at which point I was able to exit it.

2nd time I ran it from a different login, I was more carefull, and there 
was no output on the launching terminals tab screen.

And I just noticed, that tab of konsole has lost its ability to mouse 
highlight and copy/paste, outputing mouse garbage instead. I'd 
copy/paste it here but can't.  A reset and clear terminal seems to 
restore that konsole session tab. I can now highlight for a copy/paste, 
but the screen has of course ben cleared.

> Is the my.halshow a file saved from halshow, or one you edited by
> hand?

halshow has those menu items, but they are ghosted, no response when 
clicked on. I could do screen snaps but I'd have to PM them, John K. has 
removed all attempts by me to send the list a pix for the last 18 months 
or so.

my.halshow was originally created by nano, subsequently verified by 
geany, and cat, according to an ls -l, has normal I own it perms.

There is not a way to "set a watch" other than hand editing my.halshow.  
I think there used to be, but I haven't used it for quite some time, 
couple years or more, and that option in now gone.  On all 4 machines, 
so it is not just the armhf versions. ISTR there used to be a set a 
watch option but it, I don't recall, ever actually worked, producing a 
useful result.

The ghosted save watch list lines in the file menu, remain ghosted after 
loading my.halshow. I would assume a successful load would activate 
them, but does not.

Thanks Andy.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 12 October 2021 23:31:51 John Dammeyer wrote:

> This has nothing to do with LCNC specifically.  Really more a how to
> use LCNC.
>
> The attached picture is of a broken tripod crank handle that clearly
> was a casting.
>
> I can't figure out how I'd hold the raw stock to machine it.  The slot
> would be easy.  But the angles and tapers and curves go in three
> different dimensions.
>
> Maybe a stub on the end held in a 4th axis?
>
> Any suggestions are welcome.
> John
What is it cranking? Maybe I could 3d print it.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 13 October 2021 00:02:12 John Dammeyer wrote:

> > > Maybe a stub on the end held in a 4th axis?
> > >
> > > Any suggestions are welcome.
> > > John
> >
> > What is it cranking? Maybe I could 3d print it.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett.
>
> Chrome plated pot metal and if that can crack and break a 3D printed
> handle would definitely.
>
> What I could do of course is use epoxy to rebuilt the broken tang. 
> Grind off the rivet holding the knob.  Then cast a replacement out of
> bronze.
>
> I'll measure it up and do a drawing.  It's been lying on my desk for a
> few years now and since I have working CNC it seems appropriate to
> finally get to it.  And to use CNC because this is the type of
> exercise that teaches.
>
> John
>
This is true.  And if making it, alu is a lot easier to machine. Stronger 
than pot too.

Since I  usually write my own gcode for such. I tend to use the raw stuff 
I have, and presently have several sq feet of 1/2" & 1" thick alu.

After the gcode is written and maybe proved by making some sawdust, that 
would be perhaps an hour at the most to cut out of that 1/2" on my 6040 
mill, using a 2 or 3 ounces of kool-mist mix to keep the tool cool and 
clean. The main gcode would be the tapered shank and the slot that 
straddles the shaft its turning, then a different clamp down to drill 
the two holes, probably all with the same 3mm carbide tool in one clamp 
up. I there is turning clearance such that the angle that broke it in 
the first place is only needed for looks, leave the angle out of the new 
one, it will be stronger. Drilling a 4mm rivet hole with a 3mm SC mill 
is a piece of cake to write using arcgenm18.py. So is the outer rounded 
end you will drill the hole in to remount the knob. The tapered shank, 
is an incremental depth loop, all done by tracing the outside, 25 thou 
deeper per trace around the shape. Leave the big end square, but write 
an arc at the knob end for that depth loop turnaround. Then the only 
clamp up change will be turning it on it on its side to drill the hole 
it swings on.

If you do it right, it might be less than 80 lines of code.

I needed some wrenches to fit the er12 chuck on the 6040's new motor and 
the double D-flated motor shaft. They fit very precisely and work better 
than anything I could buy.  And the weight is much reduced. I also use a 
CBN disk about 30 thou thick and 2" in diameter in that 24k rev motor to 
sharpen HSS lathe tools, getting them many times sharper than an 
si-carbide green wheel in the bench grinder does since HSS and diamond 
wheels don't gee-haw at all, it just burns up the diamond. Leaves a face 
like a mirror but w/o any saw tooth edge burr to dull quickly.  CBN is 
the best kept secret in abrasives. It can also resharpen a carbide tool 
about as fast as diamond can, making a cheap molded chip much sharper 
than it is coming out of the 10 pack shipper.

But you won't find it at Lowes, TSC, or whatever the hardware store is 
called on your local dirt. Its also more expensive than diamond as I 
bought 3 from a maker in denver at 110$ each. And broke one of them with 
a crescent wrench that slipped before I got to use it. That is what 
prompted the wrench making, but that breakage sure ruined the air in the 
garage for a while.

Take care John.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 13 October 2021 00:47:45 John Dammeyer wrote:

> Here we go.
> How to hold and mill this?
> John
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
> > Sent: October-12-21 9:02 PM
> > To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.
> >
> > > > Maybe a stub on the end held in a 4th axis?
> > > >
> > > > Any suggestions are welcome.
> > > > John
> > >
> > > What is it cranking? Maybe I could 3d print it.
> > >
> > > Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> >
> > Chrome plated pot metal and if that can crack and break a 3D printed
> > handle would definitely.
> >
> > What I could do of course is use epoxy to rebuilt the broken tang. 
> > Grind off the rivet holding the knob.  Then cast a replacement out
> > of bronze.
> >
> > I'll measure it up and do a drawing.  It's been lying on my desk for
> > a few years now and since I have working CNC it seems appropriate to
> > finally get to it.  And to use CNC because this is the type of
> > exercise that teaches.
> >
> > John
> >
Unforch, John, not even my latest copy of freecad can open that file. 
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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