Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
On 6 November 2011 17:36, Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com wrote: http://www.newark.com/tyco-electronics-corcom/10vr6/rfi-power-line-filter-10a-700ua/dp/52K3303 Yes, in the US, corcom is a leading brand of these filters. My machine has one of these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12330-NEW-Rasmi-3G3MV-PFI-1010-E-RFI-Filter-/170624064389?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item27b9fc9b85#ht_967wt_966 (I think that Rasmi might have a bigger market share in Europe than Corcom) -- atp The idea that there is no such thing as objective truth is, quite simply, wrong. -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
Dne 5.11.2011 18:30, piše Kirk Wallace: On Sat, 2011-11-05 at 14:09 +0200, Viesturs Lācis wrote: 2011/11/5 Slavko Kocjancicesla...@gmail.com: Hello... I think the 1'st thing is to check what is wrong. Not to do something to eliminate problem but not know what problem it is. Yes, that is exactly my question - is there anything I can do to diagnose the cause of problem? My experience seems to indicate: _Always_ have a filter on VFD power inputs. They are not that expensive. Proximity of a VFD to sensitive parts doesn't really indicate much. If the hardware is not configured properly (and what is?), the VFD interference can travel through metal frames, conduit, unrelated wires, shielding, etcetera, and come out on the far side of the machine. Sometimes, beads on the output wires can help. Most stepper and servo drives are very similar to VFD's, so they may need power input filters, or output beads too. Most break-out-board inputs (and others) have very high impedance, therefore are very susceptible to induced fields on the input wiring, so even minor interference can show up at the input pin. Think of hitting something hard like a bell. It doesn't absorb or convert the energy very well so it rings until the energy gets converted to sound. Hitting dry sand converts the all of the energy instantly, so it is hard to drive a signal into it,let alone induce noise. I've found that plain buffer inputs have very high impedance and often need some some sort of filter (lowers impedance, adds sand) that matches the type of signal being read. Opto-isolated inputs seem to have more impedance, so are not as much of a problem. Switches and relays with real contacts go from very high impedance to very low, and bounce, so most likely need filtering. Most real machines (my opinion) use 12 Volts for control signals to help push the noise into the OFF voltage region. Others have more experience with this, but I have found that connecting a short piece of wire on my oscilloscope probe picks up interference. I can wave it around my machine and find the noisy spots. It seems some amount noise is inevitable and normal, so expect to need to deal with it, rather than eliminate it. I've heard an AM radio is also good for scanning for interference. I recently set up HALscope to trigger on a suspicious signal. After forcing a trigger on the scope to clear the traces, I sat and watched HALscope until it triggered, then preesed stop to keep the traces form getting written over. This indicated that this signal was on the edge of ON and OFF. A resistor in the line (current limit) and capacitor to ground (low impedance, sand, RC filter) cleared it up. I agree that filtering is good thing to do. But in this case (runnung near 1 hour without problem) the EMI isnt the source of trouble. But high impedance on input pins can be source of trouble here. Or better expresed to high resistance of wires/connectors... -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
Dave, Kirk, Jon, thanks! 2011/11/5 Dave e...@dc9.tzo.com: What I did to verify that the VFDs were the problem was to run the machine without the VFD powered up - pull the fuses or unwire them.. Then try running parts for an hour or so. Remove the cutters if need be.. . If the problem vanishes you likely have an VFD related noise problem. It is easy to switch the VFD off, but I am having difficulties to come up with a plan, how to check, if the tool takes correct path. I will consult with client's specialists - maybe they can suggest something. 2011/11/5 Kirk Wallace kwall...@wallacecompany.com: My experience seems to indicate: _Always_ have a filter on VFD power inputs. I have a question here: Filters on VFD input lines have been mentioned several time here. Is this something close to what is meant here: http://www.newark.com/tyco-electronics-corcom/10vr6/rfi-power-line-filter-10a-700ua/dp/52K3303 2011/11/5 Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com: You can run memtest86 from the install CD and let it run for at least several hours. This program gets the CPU warmed up and exercises memory heavily. If it finds even a single error, don't bother with anything else until it can run without error overnight. Also, you can run the latency test for a few hours, and exercise web browsers, USB memory stick inserts/removals, glxgears and other operations to see if the latency gets bad. I ran latency test with glxgears and tried to open/close firefox last time I was there. But I think that I ran the test for 15-20 minutes. It was pretty fine - max jitter on base-thread was reaching 25000 ns, but base thread is not used and max jitter on servo thread was around 16000 ns, servo period is standard 1 ms. I recall that I ran latency tests, when I initially installed EMC2 on the machine and there were cases, when max jitter reached 800K ns - almost another servo period. Also that time I ran the test for less than 15 minutes. I will try to figure out, how can I these tests for longer time period without sitting next to the machine - it is several hours to drive from my place. And I think that client will not be happy about machine idling for a whole working day, but I will handle that. Viesturs -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
-Original Message- From: Viesturs Lacis [mailto:viesturs.la...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2011 5:13 AM To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case? Dave, Kirk, Jon, thanks! 2011/11/5 Dave e...@dc9.tzo.com: What I did to verify that the VFDs were the problem was to run the machine without the VFD powered up - pull the fuses or unwire them.. Then try running parts for an hour or so. Remove the cutters if need be.. . If the problem vanishes you likely have an VFD related noise problem. It is easy to switch the VFD off, but I am having difficulties to come up with a plan, how to check, if the tool takes correct path. I will consult with client's specialists - maybe they can suggest something. 2011/11/5 Kirk Wallace kwall...@wallacecompany.com: My experience seems to indicate: _Always_ have a filter on VFD power inputs. I have a question here: Filters on VFD input lines have been mentioned several time here. Is this something close to what is meant here: http://www.newark.com/tyco-electronics-corcom/10vr6/rfi-power- line-filter-10a-700ua/dp/52K3303 Viesturs, When choosing a filter for the mains power into the VFD, be sure to choose one with a large enough current rating to supply the VFD safely. Your VFD manual should give a rating for the input power source. Do not try to use this type of filter on the output of the VFD. These filters are designed to operate on power that has 50 or 60 Hertz as the fundamental frequency. The output of a VFD will have the inverter frequency (usually between 2,000 and 20,000 Hertz) as its dominant frequency. A motor does not mind because it is an inductive load and will act as its own filter. The interference filter will have capacitors to ground and depending on filter design, these may see much more current than they are designed to handle when the fundamental frequency is above 60 Hertz. There are filters designed for use on the output side of a VFD, but they are larger and more expensive. These are usually sold by the VFD manufacturer. For cost reasons it is usually more practical to try to shield the VFD output by using conduit or a shielded cable. Also note, this is one case where the shield of the cable should be grounded at both ends, unlike most cables that carry signals instead of power. Steve Stallings 2011/11/5 Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com: You can run memtest86 from the install CD and let it run for at least several hours. This program gets the CPU warmed up and exercises memory heavily. If it finds even a single error, don't bother with anything else until it can run without error overnight. Also, you can run the latency test for a few hours, and exercise web browsers, USB memory stick inserts/removals, glxgears and other operations to see if the latency gets bad. I ran latency test with glxgears and tried to open/close firefox last time I was there. But I think that I ran the test for 15-20 minutes. It was pretty fine - max jitter on base-thread was reaching 25000 ns, but base thread is not used and max jitter on servo thread was around 16000 ns, servo period is standard 1 ms. I recall that I ran latency tests, when I initially installed EMC2 on the machine and there were cases, when max jitter reached 800K ns - almost another servo period. Also that time I ran the test for less than 15 minutes. I will try to figure out, how can I these tests for longer time period without sitting next to the machine - it is several hours to drive from my place. And I think that client will not be happy about machine idling for a whole working day, but I will handle that. Viesturs -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
On Sun, 2011-11-06 at 12:12 +0200, Viesturs Lācis wrote: ... snip Is this something close to what is meant here: http://www.newark.com/tyco-electronics-corcom/10vr6/rfi-power-line-filter-10a-700ua/dp/52K3303 ... snip Yes. Your example is rated for 10 Amps which may not be enough, but otherwise that's what I had in mind. -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html California, USA -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
On 11/06/2011 4:12 AM, Viesturs Lācis wrote: I have a question here: Filters on VFD input lines have been mentioned several time here. Is this something close to what is meant here: http://www.newark.com/tyco-electronics-corcom/10vr6/rfi-power-line-filter-10a-700ua/dp/52K3303 Yes, in the US, corcom is a leading brand of these filters. There are certainly other makes available elsewhere. But, this unit is certainly the sort of device you need in this application. Jon -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
2011/11/6 Slavko Kocjancic esla...@gmail.com: I agree that filtering is good thing to do. But in this case (running near 1 hour without problem) the EMI isnt the source of trouble. Thanks, guys, for suggestions! I will try to figure out, how to test, if PC is ok and if the spindles/VFD does mess the thing for the starting point, because I also think that the tendency for machine to work correctly some time after turning it makes the whole situation frustrating. Viesturs -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
On 11/06/2011 12:37 PM, Viesturs Lācis wrote: 2011/11/6 Slavko Kocjancicesla...@gmail.com: I agree that filtering is good thing to do. But in this case (running near 1 hour without problem) the EMI isnt the source of trouble. Thanks, guys, for suggestions! I will try to figure out, how to test, if PC is ok and if the spindles/VFD does mess the thing for the starting point, because I also think that the tendency for machine to work correctly some time after turning it makes the whole situation frustrating. Yes, finding the cause of intermittent problems can be very difficult. It may be that only with the machine in a particular position are the wires in such a shape that the interference disrupts the operation. It could be cables or connectors that are breaking contact in certain positions, it could be electrical interference, or something completely different. Jon -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
On 11/06/2011 10:37 AM, Viesturs Lācis wrote: 2011/11/6 Slavko Kocjancicesla...@gmail.com: I agree that filtering is good thing to do. But in this case (running near 1 hour without problem) the EMI isnt the source of trouble. Thanks, guys, for suggestions! I will try to figure out, how to test, if PC is ok and if the spindles/VFD does mess the thing for the starting point, because I also think that the tendency for machine to work correctly some time after turning it makes the whole situation frustrating. Viesturs Just reading this thread takes longer than troubleshooting should take. Lots of good suggestions, with a number of repeats, but there's one thing that I don't remember reading: cost of troubleshooting. It's one thing to troubleshoot a hobby machine, it's another to do it on a production system. I cannot imagine running test programs on production PC for hours to troubleshoot memory or anything else for that matter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but production loss in time, ruined parts, and delivery in one day is likely (times) more than the cost of whole PC and possibly other electronic components comprising the CNC system. Question: why is it that the end user does not have spare kit(s) (whole PC or a motherboard, memory, disk drive, sensors, etc.) on site? And if not, why is the supplier not providing spares to replace them during first troubleshooting session? Spares are cheap compared to production loss especially when travel is involved! When you have intermittent problems that cannot be found in an hour by troubleshooting means suggested in this thread, it's time to start changing parts depending on their (statistical or experienced) possibility of failure, ease of access to the components, or complexity of changing them. That way you take care of two problems: bad component or subassembly, and intermittent connections between those components. You have to be careful not to introduce new problems of course. It might turn out that the replaced component was not bad at all and it could be used as a spare or for troubleshooting purposes next time. I used to test field replaced boards back in office on test computers. Good boards were labeled and returned to our stock. That 80's practice should work today too. One possibility would be to connect a second computer without removing the original assuming cabling could be taken care of. And it should if designed properly. Also, a number of messages addressed interference and noise issues. What hasn't been mentioned is how to measure this. My suggestion would be to bring an oscilloscope (I depend on my old Tektronix 2445 and little Velleman Personal Scope) on-site to see the quality of electric signals on sensor and power lines, power supplies, and PCB boards. You can easily buy cheap digital scopes with sufficient capabilities for field service these days. Good DMM also needs to be part of tech or engineers tool box. As the saying goes: show me your tool box and I'll tell you how good an engineer or technician you are. Scope will tell you if you really need a line filter or not. Just throwing new components into the system is likely a waste of time and $ and might introduce new problems as well. Anxious to read the rest of the story, -- Rafael -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
Hello... I think the 1'st thing is to check what is wrong. Not to do something to eliminate problem but not know what problem it is. So far I know. If EMC doesn't crash then motherboard isn't problem (CPU/RAM/ROM/S,N bridges...) so try to check where is problem. It can be somewhere betwen CPU bus (aka whatewer card you use for IO) throu motor driver board. Just I don't understand how you are can continue work on next piece after crash without rehoming? Do you have servo or stepper. In case of stepper there should be position loss so rehoming is mandatory. (Or you just tolerate absolute error as you touchof coordinate to part machined?) If that's true then jou maybe just have missconfigured configuration. Eg you measure latency and got for example 10us and you conclude that is it. But sometime some events thermal recalibration of HDD for example can cause little longer latency and jou hit the problem. And this occour in random time not periodic. Just put that pc with intensive work to measure latency for few hours to werify. If you have servo then EMI can be problem. (for stepper to but less possible as machine run long time without trouble). So find the problem 1'st then seek for medicine. Slavko. Sorry for my bad Eglish. -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
2011/11/5 Slavko Kocjancic esla...@gmail.com: Hello... I think the 1'st thing is to check what is wrong. Not to do something to eliminate problem but not know what problem it is. Yes, that is exactly my question - is there anything I can do to diagnose the cause of problem? If EMC doesn't crash then motherboard isn't problem (CPU/RAM/ROM/S,N bridges...) so try to check where is problem. It can be somewhere betwen CPU bus (aka whatewer card you use for IO) throu motor driver board. Just I don't understand how you are can continue work on next piece after crash without rehoming? Do you have servo or stepper. In case of stepper there should be position loss so rehoming is mandatory. (Or you just tolerate absolute error as you touchof coordinate to part machined?) If that's true then jou maybe just have missconfigured configuration. Eg you measure latency and got for example 10us and you conclude that is it. But sometime some events thermal recalibration of HDD for example can cause little longer latency and jou hit the problem. And this occour in random time not periodic. Just put that pc with intensive work to measure latency for few hours to werify. If you have servo then EMI can be problem. (for stepper to but less possible as machine run long time without trouble). Here is some data about the machine: 4 MotionKing stepper drives with Mesa 7i43 for step generation. PC is dual-core Intel Pentium CPU with 1GB memory, no idea about motherboard. EMC version is 2.4.6 running on Lucid. These are the symptoms: 1) EMC won't start running a file, when a PLC (currently controls pneumatics, it will be removed eventually) sends a signal to do so. In HAL file I have: net deb-in debounce.0.0.in = hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.gpio.034.in_not net oneshot-in debounce.0.0.out = oneshot.0.in net oneshot-out oneshot.0.out = and2.0.in0 setp debounce.0.delay 5 setp oneshot.0.rising 1 setp oneshot.0.retriggerable 1 setp oneshot.0.width 5 net ready pyvcp.ready = and2.0.in1 net start and2.0.out = halui.mode.auto halui.program.run Incoming signal from PLC is filtered through debounce and routed into oneshot to watch for rising edge. There is pyvcp button Ready for work for operator to enable EMC following PLC commands. I have been watching these pins in Show HAL Config: hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.gpio.034.in_not and2.0.out halui.program.run halui.program.is-running halui.mode.auto halui.mode.is-auto What I have observed: There are cases, when EMC does not run a file, when PLC sends a signal to do so - I can see that on GPIO pin and and2.0 output pin. The thing is that pins that request changing to auto mode and running a file are true, but EMC does nothing. Resetting the GPIO pin usually solves the situation. So EMC does behave unusually. Blowing out the dust from all the cases - PC, monitor and the box with Mesa card and stepper drives. EMC behaved correctly for ~30 minutes and then this behavior started to repeat once in ~10 minutes. 2) One of the spindles takes a wrong path. The work process is that operator places the material in fixture and presses Start button - pneumatic cylinders hold it in place and spindles conduct a movement, shaping both ends of material. Cylinders release the material, operator takes the part out and puts the next part in and presses Start again. And then repeat this for hundreds of times. I have 2 joints hardcoded to X and other 2 joints hardcoded to Y in kinematics module. The error is that sometimes one of the spindles (not the same spindle all the times) moves less than needed along X thus ruining part. The differene is ~1mm. Most surprising is that after such a wrong move next part is correct. The thing is that deviance of 0.1 mm can already be seen on the part due to the shape of the tool and the shape of the cut. I have a suspicion that this might be something connected with Mesa card and magnetic field from VFD and also spindle motors, because there is CRT monitor ~0,5m from spindle motor and the picture gets creeped. It is good as soon as motor is turned off and gets creepy as soon as it is turned on. The pattern of creepiness changes as the motor moves. If there was a noise in step/dir signals, then the error should remain. But the thing is that in all the cases it recovers and next part is totally fine. The pattern for this error was something like this: No error for first 40-50 minutes. One part ruined. Fine for 5-10 minutes. One part ruined. Fine for ~20 parts. One part ruined. Fine for 6 parts. One part ruined. Fine for 4 parts. One part ruined. Fine for 10-15 parts. One part ruined. Then I lost the track. Confirmed by supervisor - the tendency is that all these errors (and they say that there are other errors that I was not able to observe during 3 hours I was there) get worse and worse as the machine is working. So if one shift (7 hours) somehow can work, then the night shift comes in and in the morning there is almost nothing done. Let the
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
On 5 November 2011 12:09, Viesturs Lācis viesturs.la...@gmail.com wrote: I have a suspicion that this might be something connected with Mesa card and magnetic field from VFD and also spindle motors, because there is CRT monitor ~0,5m from spindle motor and the picture gets creeped. It is good as soon as motor is turned off and gets creepy as soon as it is turned on. The pattern of creepiness changes as the motor moves. I would try to get a line filter installed on the VFD supply as a first stage. That probably isn't the problem, but it sounds like it is required. -- atp The idea that there is no such thing as objective truth is, quite simply, wrong. -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
On Saturday, November 05, 2011 10:07:40 AM andy pugh did opine: On 5 November 2011 12:09, Viesturs Lؤپcis viesturs.la...@gmail.com wrote: I have a suspicion that this might be something connected with Mesa card and magnetic field from VFD and also spindle motors, because there is CRT monitor ~0,5m from spindle motor and the picture gets creeped. It is good as soon as motor is turned off and gets creepy as soon as it is turned on. The pattern of creepiness changes as the motor moves. I would try to get a line filter installed on the VFD supply as a first stage. That probably isn't the problem, but it sounds like it is required. That is more than likely magnetic radiation from the motor, combined with a CRT that isn't running at maximum beam voltage. They can get pretty sensitive. I don't recall seeing that effect on my own machine, but the closest the monitor ever was is nearly a meter and the motor is only about a 2 amp/90 volt motor. Years ago, I was using 2 monitors on a TRS-80 Color Computer 3, and with the monitors sitting side by side, the 12 amber screen and the 15 Magnavox 8cm515 interfered with each other quite noticeably due to the differences in their vertical scan rate. A sheet of aluminum between them helped more than a sheet of steel, but I somewhat got used to it. I was probably one of the two in the world that did that. Two monitors with independent feeds on a coco sure impressed the PC folks. :-) BTW I still have that machine, its running in the basement right now. But now I log into it with either putty or minicom. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene WildTHing ok guys .. so whens the next commit :PP taniwha when they come to get me -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
On Sat, 5 Nov 2011, Viesturs L?cis wrote: Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 14:09:35 +0200 From: [UTF-8] Viesturs L?cis viesturs.la...@gmail.com Reply-To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case? 2011/11/5 Slavko Kocjancic esla...@gmail.com: Hello... I think the 1'st thing is to check what is wrong. Not to do something to eliminate problem but not know what problem it is. Yes, that is exactly my question - is there anything I can do to diagnose the cause of problem? If EMC doesn't crash then motherboard isn't problem (CPU/RAM/ROM/S,N bridges...) so try to check where is problem. It can be somewhere betwen CPU bus (aka whatewer card you use for IO) throu motor driver board. Just I don't understand how you are can continue work on next piece after crash without rehoming? Do you have servo or stepper. In case of stepper there should be position loss so rehoming is mandatory. (Or you just tolerate absolute error as you touchof coordinate to part machined?) If that's true then jou maybe just have missconfigured configuration. Eg you measure latency and got for example 10us and you conclude that is it. But sometime some events thermal recalibration of HDD for example can cause little longer latency and jou hit the problem. And this occour in random time not periodic. Just put that pc with intensive work to measure latency for few hours to werify. If you have servo then EMI can be problem. (for stepper to but less possible as machine run long time without trouble). Here is some data about the machine: 4 MotionKing stepper drives with Mesa 7i43 for step generation. PC is dual-core Intel Pentium CPU with 1GB memory, no idea about motherboard. EMC version is 2.4.6 running on Lucid. These are the symptoms: 1) EMC won't start running a file, when a PLC (currently controls pneumatics, it will be removed eventually) sends a signal to do so. In HAL file I have: net deb-in debounce.0.0.in = hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.gpio.034.in_not net oneshot-in debounce.0.0.out = oneshot.0.in net oneshot-out oneshot.0.out = and2.0.in0 setp debounce.0.delay 5 setp oneshot.0.rising 1 setp oneshot.0.retriggerable 1 setp oneshot.0.width 5 net ready pyvcp.ready = and2.0.in1 net start and2.0.out = halui.mode.auto halui.program.run Incoming signal from PLC is filtered through debounce and routed into oneshot to watch for rising edge. There is pyvcp button Ready for work for operator to enable EMC following PLC commands. I have been watching these pins in Show HAL Config: hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.gpio.034.in_not and2.0.out halui.program.run halui.program.is-running halui.mode.auto halui.mode.is-auto What I have observed: There are cases, when EMC does not run a file, when PLC sends a signal to do so - I can see that on GPIO pin and and2.0 output pin. The thing is that pins that request changing to auto mode and running a file are true, but EMC does nothing. Resetting the GPIO pin usually solves the situation. So EMC does behave unusually. Blowing out the dust from all the cases - PC, monitor and the box with Mesa card and stepper drives. EMC behaved correctly for ~30 minutes and then this behavior started to repeat once in ~10 minutes. Sounds more like a thermal problem rather than dust, maybe a marginal level somewhere. But the Bit that EMC does not react seems really strange If its related to spindle noise, installing a line filter or ferrite bead an the spindle motor wires should make a big difference Also the debounce of 5 mS (assuming 1 mS servo thread) seems pretty fast for a mechanical relay output (if thats what the PLC outputs) 2) One of the spindles takes a wrong path. The work process is that operator places the material in fixture and presses Start button - pneumatic cylinders hold it in place and spindles conduct a movement, shaping both ends of material. Cylinders release the material, operator takes the part out and puts the next part in and presses Start again. And then repeat this for hundreds of times. I have 2 joints hardcoded to X and other 2 joints hardcoded to Y in kinematics module. The error is that sometimes one of the spindles (not the same spindle all the times) moves less than needed along X thus ruining part. The differene is ~1mm. Most surprising is that after such a wrong move next part is correct. The thing is that deviance of 0.1 mm can already be seen on the part due to the shape of the tool and the shape of the cut. I have a suspicion that this might be something connected with Mesa card and magnetic field from VFD and also spindle motors, because there is CRT monitor ~0,5m from spindle motor and the picture gets creeped. It is good as soon as motor is turned off and gets creepy as soon as it is turned on. The pattern of creepiness changes as the motor moves
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
Dne 5.11.2011 14:09, piše Viesturs Lācis: 2011/11/5 Slavko Kocjancicesla...@gmail.com: Hello... I think the 1'st thing is to check what is wrong. Not to do something to eliminate problem but not know what problem it is. Yes, that is exactly my question - is there anything I can do to diagnose the cause of problem? If EMC doesn't crash then motherboard isn't problem (CPU/RAM/ROM/S,N bridges...) so try to check where is problem. It can be somewhere betwen CPU bus (aka whatewer card you use for IO) throu motor driver board. Just I don't understand how you are can continue work on next piece after crash without rehoming? Do you have servo or stepper. In case of stepper there should be position loss so rehoming is mandatory. (Or you just tolerate absolute error as you touchof coordinate to part machined?) If that's true then jou maybe just have missconfigured configuration. Eg you measure latency and got for example 10us and you conclude that is it. But sometime some events thermal recalibration of HDD for example can cause little longer latency and jou hit the problem. And this occour in random time not periodic. Just put that pc with intensive work to measure latency for few hours to werify. If you have servo then EMI can be problem. (for stepper to but less possible as machine run long time without trouble). Here is some data about the machine: 4 MotionKing stepper drives with Mesa 7i43 for step generation. PC is dual-core Intel Pentium CPU with 1GB memory, no idea about motherboard. EMC version is 2.4.6 running on Lucid. These are the symptoms: 1) EMC won't start running a file, when a PLC (currently controls pneumatics, it will be removed eventually) sends a signal to do so. In HAL file I have: net deb-in debounce.0.0.in= hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.gpio.034.in_not net oneshot-in debounce.0.0.out = oneshot.0.in net oneshot-out oneshot.0.out = and2.0.in0 setp debounce.0.delay 5 setp oneshot.0.rising 1 setp oneshot.0.retriggerable 1 setp oneshot.0.width 5 net ready pyvcp.ready = and2.0.in1 net start and2.0.out = halui.mode.auto halui.program.run Incoming signal from PLC is filtered through debounce and routed into oneshot to watch for rising edge. There is pyvcp button Ready for work for operator to enable EMC following PLC commands. I have been watching these pins in Show HAL Config: hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.gpio.034.in_not and2.0.out halui.program.run halui.program.is-running halui.mode.auto halui.mode.is-auto What I have observed: There are cases, when EMC does not run a file, when PLC sends a signal to do so - I can see that on GPIO pin and and2.0 output pin. The thing is that pins that request changing to auto mode and running a file are true, but EMC does nothing. Resetting the GPIO pin usually solves the situation. So EMC does behave unusually. Blowing out the dust from all the cases - PC, monitor and the box with Mesa card and stepper drives. EMC behaved correctly for ~30 minutes and then this behavior started to repeat once in ~10 minutes. 2) One of the spindles takes a wrong path. The work process is that operator places the material in fixture and presses Start button - pneumatic cylinders hold it in place and spindles conduct a movement, shaping both ends of material. Cylinders release the material, operator takes the part out and puts the next part in and presses Start again. And then repeat this for hundreds of times. I have 2 joints hardcoded to X and other 2 joints hardcoded to Y in kinematics module. The error is that sometimes one of the spindles (not the same spindle all the times) moves less than needed along X thus ruining part. The differene is ~1mm. Most surprising is that after such a wrong move next part is correct. The thing is that deviance of 0.1 mm can already be seen on the part due to the shape of the tool and the shape of the cut. I have a suspicion that this might be something connected with Mesa card and magnetic field from VFD and also spindle motors, because there is CRT monitor ~0,5m from spindle motor and the picture gets creeped. It is good as soon as motor is turned off and gets creepy as soon as it is turned on. The pattern of creepiness changes as the motor moves. If there was a noise in step/dir signals, then the error should remain. But the thing is that in all the cases it recovers and next part is totally fine. The pattern for this error was something like this: No error for first 40-50 minutes. One part ruined. Fine for 5-10 minutes. One part ruined. Fine for ~20 parts. One part ruined. Fine for 6 parts. One part ruined. Fine for 4 parts. One part ruined. Fine for 10-15 parts. One part ruined. Then I lost the track. Confirmed by supervisor - the tendency is that all these errors (and they say that there are other errors that I was not able to observe during 3 hours I was there) get worse and worse as the machine is working. So if one
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
On 11/5/2011 7:09 AM, Viesturs Lācis wrote: 2011/11/5 Slavko Kocjancicesla...@gmail.com: Hello... I think the 1'st thing is to check what is wrong. Not to do something to eliminate problem but not know what problem it is. Yes, that is exactly my question - is there anything I can do to diagnose the cause of problem? If EMC doesn't crash then motherboard isn't problem (CPU/RAM/ROM/S,N bridges...) so try to check where is problem. It can be somewhere betwen CPU bus (aka whatewer card you use for IO) throu motor driver board. Just I don't understand how you are can continue work on next piece after crash without rehoming? Do you have servo or stepper. In case of stepper there should be position loss so rehoming is mandatory. (Or you just tolerate absolute error as you touchof coordinate to part machined?) If that's true then jou maybe just have missconfigured configuration. Eg you measure latency and got for example 10us and you conclude that is it. But sometime some events thermal recalibration of HDD for example can cause little longer latency and jou hit the problem. And this occour in random time not periodic. Just put that pc with intensive work to measure latency for few hours to werify. If you have servo then EMI can be problem. (for stepper to but less possible as machine run long time without trouble). Here is some data about the machine: 4 MotionKing stepper drives with Mesa 7i43 for step generation. PC is dual-core Intel Pentium CPU with 1GB memory, no idea about motherboard. EMC version is 2.4.6 running on Lucid. These are the symptoms: 1) EMC won't start running a file, when a PLC (currently controls pneumatics, it will be removed eventually) sends a signal to do so. In HAL file I have: net deb-in debounce.0.0.in= hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.gpio.034.in_not net oneshot-in debounce.0.0.out = oneshot.0.in net oneshot-out oneshot.0.out = and2.0.in0 setp debounce.0.delay 5 setp oneshot.0.rising 1 setp oneshot.0.retriggerable 1 setp oneshot.0.width 5 net ready pyvcp.ready = and2.0.in1 net start and2.0.out = halui.mode.auto halui.program.run Incoming signal from PLC is filtered through debounce and routed into oneshot to watch for rising edge. There is pyvcp button Ready for work for operator to enable EMC following PLC commands. I have been watching these pins in Show HAL Config: hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.gpio.034.in_not and2.0.out halui.program.run halui.program.is-running halui.mode.auto halui.mode.is-auto What I have observed: There are cases, when EMC does not run a file, when PLC sends a signal to do so - I can see that on GPIO pin and and2.0 output pin. The thing is that pins that request changing to auto mode and running a file are true, but EMC does nothing. Resetting the GPIO pin usually solves the situation. So EMC does behave unusually. Blowing out the dust from all the cases - PC, monitor and the box with Mesa card and stepper drives. EMC behaved correctly for ~30 minutes and then this behavior started to repeat once in ~10 minutes. 2) One of the spindles takes a wrong path. The work process is that operator places the material in fixture and presses Start button - pneumatic cylinders hold it in place and spindles conduct a movement, shaping both ends of material. Cylinders release the material, operator takes the part out and puts the next part in and presses Start again. And then repeat this for hundreds of times. I have 2 joints hardcoded to X and other 2 joints hardcoded to Y in kinematics module. The error is that sometimes one of the spindles (not the same spindle all the times) moves less than needed along X thus ruining part. The differene is ~1mm. Most surprising is that after such a wrong move next part is correct. The thing is that deviance of 0.1 mm can already be seen on the part due to the shape of the tool and the shape of the cut. I have a suspicion that this might be something connected with Mesa card and magnetic field from VFD and also spindle motors, because there is CRT monitor ~0,5m from spindle motor and the picture gets creeped. It is good as soon as motor is turned off and gets creepy as soon as it is turned on. The pattern of creepiness changes as the motor moves. If there was a noise in step/dir signals, then the error should remain. But the thing is that in all the cases it recovers and next part is totally fine. The pattern for this error was something like this: No error for first 40-50 minutes. One part ruined. Fine for 5-10 minutes. One part ruined. Fine for ~20 parts. One part ruined. Fine for 6 parts. One part ruined. Fine for 4 parts. One part ruined. Fine for 10-15 parts. One part ruined. Then I lost the track. Confirmed by supervisor - the tendency is that all these errors (and they say that there are other errors that I was not able to observe during 3 hours I was there) get worse and worse as the
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
On Sat, 2011-11-05 at 14:09 +0200, Viesturs Lācis wrote: 2011/11/5 Slavko Kocjancic esla...@gmail.com: Hello... I think the 1'st thing is to check what is wrong. Not to do something to eliminate problem but not know what problem it is. Yes, that is exactly my question - is there anything I can do to diagnose the cause of problem? My experience seems to indicate: _Always_ have a filter on VFD power inputs. They are not that expensive. Proximity of a VFD to sensitive parts doesn't really indicate much. If the hardware is not configured properly (and what is?), the VFD interference can travel through metal frames, conduit, unrelated wires, shielding, etcetera, and come out on the far side of the machine. Sometimes, beads on the output wires can help. Most stepper and servo drives are very similar to VFD's, so they may need power input filters, or output beads too. Most break-out-board inputs (and others) have very high impedance, therefore are very susceptible to induced fields on the input wiring, so even minor interference can show up at the input pin. Think of hitting something hard like a bell. It doesn't absorb or convert the energy very well so it rings until the energy gets converted to sound. Hitting dry sand converts the all of the energy instantly, so it is hard to drive a signal into it,let alone induce noise. I've found that plain buffer inputs have very high impedance and often need some some sort of filter (lowers impedance, adds sand) that matches the type of signal being read. Opto-isolated inputs seem to have more impedance, so are not as much of a problem. Switches and relays with real contacts go from very high impedance to very low, and bounce, so most likely need filtering. Most real machines (my opinion) use 12 Volts for control signals to help push the noise into the OFF voltage region. Others have more experience with this, but I have found that connecting a short piece of wire on my oscilloscope probe picks up interference. I can wave it around my machine and find the noisy spots. It seems some amount noise is inevitable and normal, so expect to need to deal with it, rather than eliminate it. I've heard an AM radio is also good for scanning for interference. I recently set up HALscope to trigger on a suspicious signal. After forcing a trigger on the scope to clear the traces, I sat and watched HALscope until it triggered, then preesed stop to keep the traces form getting written over. This indicated that this signal was on the edge of ON and OFF. A resistor in the line (current limit) and capacitor to ground (low impedance, sand, RC filter) cleared it up. -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html California, USA -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
On 11/05/2011 6:09 AM, Viesturs Lācis wrote: Yes, that is exactly my question - is there anything I can do to diagnose the cause of problem? You can run memtest86 from the install CD and let it run for at least several hours. This program gets the CPU warmed up and exercises memory heavily. If it finds even a single error, don't bother with anything else until it can run without error overnight. Also, you can run the latency test for a few hours, and exercise web browsers, USB memory stick inserts/removals, glxgears and other operations to see if the latency gets bad. If these two tests reveal no problems, then I agree with others that the computer is NOT at fault, it has to be the motion drivers. They could be defective, the step pulse timing could be wrong for them, the parallel port drive could be insufficient, or the accel and max velocity settings could be too high for the motors you have. Jon Jon -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
On 11/05/2011 7:15 AM, andy pugh wrote: On 5 November 2011 12:09, Viesturs Lācisviesturs.la...@gmail.com wrote: I have a suspicion that this might be something connected with Mesa card and magnetic field from VFD and also spindle motors, because there is CRT monitor ~0,5m from spindle motor and the picture gets creeped. It is good as soon as motor is turned off and gets creepy as soon as it is turned on. The pattern of creepiness changes as the motor moves. I would try to get a line filter installed on the VFD supply as a first stage. That probably isn't the problem, but it sounds like it is required. Oh, yes, this may not be it, but VFDs are well known to cause problems from either radiation or conduction through the power lines. I have seen it, too. It did not cause problems, but did put snow on the CRT. That was a sign there was a lot of conducted RF interference. A line filter cleared the problem up. One test you can run is to run the machine without the VFD powered on. You can make ]a program that finds a spot and maybe makes a dimple in a piece of material, then does a large number of back and forth moves, and then returns to the same spot to see if position has drifted. If there's no error with spindle off, but errors with spindle on, then interference from the VFD is almost certainly the cause. Jon -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
On Sat, 2011-11-05 at 09:30 -0700, Kirk Wallace wrote: ... snip Most real machines (my opinion) use 12 Volts for control signals to help push the noise into the OFF voltage region. ... snip Another thing I just read about. Having a resistor in series with the opto-coupler input (LED anode) and another from the input to the signal return (LED cathode) forms a voltage divider. Adjusting the values of the resistors allows one to set the voltage which the opto-coupler turns on. If you have a 4.5 Volt signal, the divider can be set to turn the opto-coupler on at 3.5 or 4 Volts input to the divider. If noise is no greater than 3 Volts, the opto-coupler won't trigger on the noise. Or at least that's the plan. See Figure 7: http://www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-3001.pdf -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html California, USA -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
Hello, gentlemen! I am in trouble with that double-spindle wood milling machine. It has a tendency to freeze up. I have been trying to understand, what is wrong, but the symptoms are telling that the problem is in the small wood dust, that gets inside PC case and everywhere else, because the more machine is working, the more errors it produce - let rest for few hours and it is back on track. My proposed solution - put PC and monitor in a totally closed, dust-proof case. But then there is a problem - how to cool the inside. I was thinking that PC components could be cooled with water, but I do not know, what to do with monitor. Could You, please, share Your experience and/or know-how about cases/boxes of PCs in industrial machines? Viesturs -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
john K did a nice write-up on what he did http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/blosxom/shoptask/cooling-02-13-07.html sam On 11/4/2011 9:16 AM, Viesturs Lācis wrote: Hello, gentlemen! I am in trouble with that double-spindle wood milling machine. It has a tendency to freeze up. I have been trying to understand, what is wrong, but the symptoms are telling that the problem is in the small wood dust, that gets inside PC case and everywhere else, because the more machine is working, the more errors it produce - let rest for few hours and it is back on track. My proposed solution - put PC and monitor in a totally closed, dust-proof case. But then there is a problem - how to cool the inside. I was thinking that PC components could be cooled with water, but I do not know, what to do with monitor. Could You, please, share Your experience and/or know-how about cases/boxes of PCs in industrial machines? Viesturs -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
In general wood dust does not affect computers that much. I have seen machines with piles of dust inside, still working fine day in day out. Heat is an issue so do as much as possible to keep it cool. Possibly fit an over sized CPU cooler. If you want to enclose the computer in a box, fit a fan on the side pushing air into the box. In other words the box becomes slightly pressurized. That stops dust from creeping in through cracks or door seals. Filter the air coming in with an air filter from an older car, the type that is just a big round ring that sits in a frying pan shaped housing. Clamp it to the side of your box with a round disc of wood or metal. You will have to replace the filter fairly regularly but they are quite cheap. Many bigger commercial machines use air to air heat exchangers so the clean air inside the box and dirty air outside never mix. Les On 04/11/2011 14:16, Viesturs Lācis wrote: Hello, gentlemen! I am in trouble with that double-spindle wood milling machine. It has a tendency to freeze up. I have been trying to understand, what is wrong, but the symptoms are telling that the problem is in the small wood dust, that gets inside PC case and everywhere else, because the more machine is working, the more errors it produce - let rest for few hours and it is back on track. My proposed solution - put PC and monitor in a totally closed, dust-proof case. But then there is a problem - how to cool the inside. I was thinking that PC components could be cooled with water, but I do not know, what to do with monitor. Could You, please, share Your experience and/or know-how about cases/boxes of PCs in industrial machines? Viesturs -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
LOL That's pretty much exactly what I suggested :-) Les On 04/11/2011 14:32, sam sokolik wrote: john K did a nice write-up on what he did http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/blosxom/shoptask/cooling-02-13-07.html sam -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
2011/11/4 Les Newell les.new...@fastmail.co.uk: In general wood dust does not affect computers that much. I have seen machines with piles of dust inside, still working fine day in day out. Heat is an issue so do as much as possible to keep it cool. Possibly fit an over sized CPU cooler. The thing is that machine works correctly for 40-50 mins, then malfunctions begin to appear - it does not run a file, when button is pressed and some other. Or it ruins a part, just as if motor had lost steps, but the trick is that next part if good without rehoming or any other activity taken - just change material and run the file. And the more machine is running the more often these malfunctions appear. That tells me that some parts in machine are overheating and thus not functioning properly. I would like to blame the dust that gets in all the narrow places on the boards and disturb normal heat dissipation. If you want to enclose the computer in a box, fit a fan on the side pushing air into the box. In other words the box becomes slightly pressurized. That stops dust from creeping in through cracks or door seals. Filter the air coming in with an air filter from an older car, the type that is just a big round ring that sits in a frying pan shaped housing. Clamp it to the side of your box with a round disc of wood or metal. You will have to replace the filter fairly regularly but they are quite cheap. That is why I would like to put them in totally sealed box. In that case I could implement water cooling for PC components. What should I do about monitor? Many bigger commercial machines use air to air heat exchangers so the clean air inside the box and dirty air outside never mix. Any idea, how to do that in a cost-effective way? Viesturs -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
I wouldn't bet the problem is heat related. How dirty is the computer inside? You need quite a lot of dust to make a noticeable difference. That is why I would like to put them in totally sealed box. In that case I could implement water cooling for PC components. What should I do about monitor? The easiest solution is to use an LCD monitor and put it in a metal case. As long as you circulate the air inside the case with a fan you should get enough cooling. Any idea, how to do that in a cost-effective way? Basically all you need is a box with a corrugated aluminium divider. Clean air circulates through one side of the box and dirty air circulates through the other. It isn't very complicated but it does need to be fairly big to work well. Les -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
Dne 4.11.2011 17:32, piše Viesturs Lācis: 2011/11/4 Les Newellles.new...@fastmail.co.uk: In general wood dust does not affect computers that much. I have seen machines with piles of dust inside, still working fine day in day out. Heat is an issue so do as much as possible to keep it cool. Possibly fit an over sized CPU cooler. The thing is that machine works correctly for 40-50 mins, then malfunctions begin to appear - it does not run a file, when button is pressed and some other. Or it ruins a part, just as if motor had lost steps, but the trick is that next part if good without rehoming or any other activity taken - just change material and run the file. And the more machine is running the more often these malfunctions appear. That tells me that some parts in machine are overheating and thus not functioning properly. I would like to blame the dust that gets in all the narrow places on the boards and disturb normal heat dissipation. This seems more driver board problem as PC overheating. If PC overheats then is more possible to hangup. I think you drive some electronic on the edge. Ie if you use printer port that is possible to work just in margin and when heat's up then doesn't work more. But another thing is that you say that after that error you can continue work that is wery strange. And as few people already say. Dry wood dust doesn't harm computer. But they accumulate on all fans and heatsinks and cause problems. Presurized case with fan with filter seems good idea. For monitor's there is no fan so no trouble of that kind should be expected. But if you use old type with CRT (not LCD) then this monitor isn't for dust environment. They have high anode voltage (10 to 25kV depends on size) and that attract dust to accumulate on HV wires. Not good... -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
At the mechmate forum (http://mechmate.com), we use a enclosed box and was pass air through it using a air filter. That is plenty enough to cool your PC and stepper drivers, unless you have a very large machine (I didnt follow the complete thread). Ries On Nov 4, 2011, at 10:32 AM, Viesturs Lācis wrote: 2011/11/4 Les Newell les.new...@fastmail.co.uk: In general wood dust does not affect computers that much. I have seen machines with piles of dust inside, still working fine day in day out. Heat is an issue so do as much as possible to keep it cool. Possibly fit an over sized CPU cooler. The thing is that machine works correctly for 40-50 mins, then malfunctions begin to appear - it does not run a file, when button is pressed and some other. Or it ruins a part, just as if motor had lost steps, but the trick is that next part if good without rehoming or any other activity taken - just change material and run the file. And the more machine is running the more often these malfunctions appear. That tells me that some parts in machine are overheating and thus not functioning properly. I would like to blame the dust that gets in all the narrow places on the boards and disturb normal heat dissipation. If you want to enclose the computer in a box, fit a fan on the side pushing air into the box. In other words the box becomes slightly pressurized. That stops dust from creeping in through cracks or door seals. Filter the air coming in with an air filter from an older car, the type that is just a big round ring that sits in a frying pan shaped housing. Clamp it to the side of your box with a round disc of wood or metal. You will have to replace the filter fairly regularly but they are quite cheap. That is why I would like to put them in totally sealed box. In that case I could implement water cooling for PC components. What should I do about monitor? Many bigger commercial machines use air to air heat exchangers so the clean air inside the box and dirty air outside never mix. Any idea, how to do that in a cost-effective way? Viesturs -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
On 11/04/2011 8:16 AM, Viesturs Lācis wrote: My proposed solution - put PC and monitor in a totally closed, dust-proof case. But then there is a problem - how to cool the inside. I was thinking that PC components could be cooled with water, but I do not know, what to do with monitor. I can't recommend a specific manufactured case, but the Intel Atom CPUs are known to work with EMC2 well. We have used the D510MO and now the D525MW with good latency and fine parallel port operation. These boards dissipate less than 12 W (actually, I think more like half that with EMC running), and have no fan. You can get a SATA SSD for the disk. There are a variety of car computer LCD monitors, and some have USB touch screens that can be used. We have used them with the touchy interface. For this, you need a red button (stop), a green button (go) and a jog encoder. The older D510 could use a pico-psu to run from 12 V. I don't know, but I suspect Pico-PSU also has a power supply model for the D525, but it would be a slightly different model. I just built a system with the D525 that is totally fanless, using a commercial case with built-in PS. It is not hermetic, however. Jon -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
On Friday, November 04, 2011 01:26:34 PM Viesturs Lācis did opine: Hello, gentlemen! I am in trouble with that double-spindle wood milling machine. It has a tendency to freeze up. I have been trying to understand, what is wrong, but the symptoms are telling that the problem is in the small wood dust, that gets inside PC case and everywhere else, because the more machine is working, the more errors it produce - let rest for few hours and it is back on track. My proposed solution - put PC and monitor in a totally closed, dust-proof case. My solution to that is to put the machine and motor driver electronics on a shelf about level with the counter spring pulley, with a lexan shield between the machine and the electrics. No attempt has been made to seal the computer case at all. I have cut a lot of wood with it, and have not had the machine collect enough dust to cause any problems. For my latest motor driver kit, the housing is built with pretty tight joints, with a 360 watt psu, a 6 ball bearing 120 volt rotron fan and 4 of the MM-542 drivers in it. The fan is to distribute the heat to the housing, which is either 1/8 or 3/16 alu plate. It gets pretty warm after a couple of hours, so another 6 rotron is sitting on edge on top of the enclosure blowing air across the top, and 4 hours later the front of the box is maybe 110F when its 70F in the shop. I'll do better at directing its air flow when the heat hits next summer. ;) But then there is a problem - how to cool the inside. I was thinking that PC components could be cooled with water, but I do not know, what to do with monitor. I have a wide screen 18 LCD, also on the other side of the lexan divider, and so far, knock on wood, zero problems. I think I vacuumed the outside once last summer. OTOH, I suspect your setup might be getting 20x the use mine is, so you might want to consider that. I personally lose 3 or 4 keyboards to one of any other problems, swarf is hell on keyboards. Could You, please, share Your experience and/or know-how about cases/boxes of PCs in industrial machines? Viesturs My $.0.02. :) Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene birth, n: The first and direst of all disasters. -- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
On 11/4/2011 12:40 PM, gene heskett wrote: On Friday, November 04, 2011 01:26:34 PM Viesturs Lācis did opine: Hello, gentlemen! I am in trouble with that double-spindle wood milling machine. It has a tendency to freeze up. I have been trying to understand, what is wrong, but the symptoms are telling that the problem is in the small wood dust, that gets inside PC case and everywhere else, because the more machine is working, the more errors it produce - let rest for few hours and it is back on track. My proposed solution - put PC and monitor in a totally closed, dust-proof case. My solution to that is to put the machine and motor driver electronics on a shelf about level with the counter spring pulley, with a lexan shield between the machine and the electrics. No attempt has been made to seal the computer case at all. I have cut a lot of wood with it, and have not had the machine collect enough dust to cause any problems. For my latest motor driver kit, the housing is built with pretty tight joints, with a 360 watt psu, a 6 ball bearing 120 volt rotron fan and 4 of the MM-542 drivers in it. The fan is to distribute the heat to the housing, which is either 1/8 or 3/16 alu plate. It gets pretty warm after a couple of hours, so another 6 rotron is sitting on edge on top of the enclosure blowing air across the top, and 4 hours later the front of the box is maybe 110F when its 70F in the shop. I'll do better at directing its air flow when the heat hits next summer. ;) But then there is a problem - how to cool the inside. I was thinking that PC components could be cooled with water, but I do not know, what to do with monitor. I have a wide screen 18 LCD, also on the other side of the lexan divider, and so far, knock on wood, zero problems. I think I vacuumed the outside once last summer. OTOH, I suspect your setup might be getting 20x the use mine is, so you might want to consider that. I personally lose 3 or 4 keyboards to one of any other problems, swarf is hell on keyboards. Could You, please, share Your experience and/or know-how about cases/boxes of PCs in industrial machines? Viesturs My $.0.02. :) Cheers, Gene Yet another approach is to duct clean pressurized air into the cabinet from some other location and put a vent on the side of the box to allow the air to escape. If you run some 3 dryer duct and feed that with a fan similar to a bathroom fan (cheap ones are less than $20 around here), you can get air 40+ feet from the machine and direct it into the panel. It doesn't take much pressure to keep all of the dust out of the panel. Dave -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
On 11/04/2011 09:16 AM, Viesturs Lācis wrote: Hello, gentlemen! I am in trouble with that double-spindle wood milling machine. It has a tendency to freeze up. I have been trying to understand, what is wrong, but the symptoms are telling that the problem is in the small wood dust, that gets inside PC case and everywhere else, because the more machine is working, the more errors it produce - let rest for few hours and it is back on track. My proposed solution - put PC and monitor in a totally closed, dust-proof case. But then there is a problem - how to cool the inside. I was thinking that PC components could be cooled with water, but I do not know, what to do with monitor. Could You, please, share Your experience and/or know-how about cases/boxes of PCs in industrial machines? Viesturs Instead of using water, I know of a couple of high end industrial computer systems that have the motherboards submerged in chilled mineral oil. Mineral oil replaced PCB's in pole transformers. It's inert, and has a fairly high dielectric strength. It's also used in electric radiator heaters. if you can weld aluminum, making a case wouldn't be a problem. Use 0-rings, or sealant, around each opening, and liquid tight glands for cable entrances. This would give you a fairly bulletproof system, and you would have a fairly nice passively cooled system. The MB would heat the oil, and the case would cool it. As for the LCD, I've never seen one submerged in mineral oil, but I don't see why it wouldn't work. Just seal the glass of the LCD to the opening in the case. The only downside would be maintenance. -- -Mark Ne M'oubliez ---Family Motto Hope for the best, plan for the worst ---Personal Motto -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
2011/11/4 Slavko Kocjancic esla...@gmail.com: This seems more driver board problem as PC overheating. If PC overheats then is more possible to hangup. I think you drive some electronic on the edge. Ie if you use printer port that is possible to work just in margin and when heat's up then doesn't work more. But another thing is that you say that after that error you can continue work that is wery strange. And as few people already say. Dry wood dust doesn't harm computer. But they accumulate on all fans and heatsinks and cause problems. Presurized case with fan with filter seems good idea. For monitor's there is no fan so no trouble of that kind should be expected. They have changed at least 3 LCD monitors in less than 2 years, so I think that also LCD monitors are not happy about the wood dust. And the tendency that problems start to appear, when machine has worked a little while and after 6-10 hours it gets horrible, tells me that the dust is the problem exactly because of the reason You mentioned - it accumulates on surfaces and disrupts normal cooling of different electronic components. And as they are gradually overheating, they are starting to malfunction. Are You saying that there might be some disturbances in Mesa card? The machine has 4 steppers and Mesa 7i43 for step generation. There is VFD drive located next to it. Could magnetic field from VFD influence 7i43 card? Is there anything I can do to test, where exactly the problem is? I already have convinced client to change the PC and to put it in dust-proof case. But then I have to find the real cause of the problem to eliminate it, so that customer is happy - that is very large wood-working company that produces parts for IKEA and has total annual turnover of ~60M USD. 2011/11/4 Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com: I can't recommend a specific manufactured case, but the Intel Atom CPUs are known to work with EMC2 well. We have used the D510MO and now the D525MW with good latency and fine parallel port operation. These boards dissipate less than 12 W (actually, I think more like half that with EMC running), and have no fan. You can get a SATA SSD for the disk. Thanks! That is exactly my plan - D525MW board and SSD drive - I already have used D510/D525 in all of my previous EMC2-PC builds. So are You saying that if I fit LCD monitor, D525 board, SSD drive and usual 200W PSU with a fan to circulate the air in the box in a completely closed 500*500*100 mm box, it should be cool enough? I assume that heat from PSU is proportional to the load that is drawn from it. Is that correct? 2011/11/4 gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com: OTOH, I suspect your setup might be getting 20x the use mine is, so you might want to consider that. Machine has to operate 3 shifts a day, so basically - 24/7. 2011/11/4 Dave e...@dc9.tzo.com: Yet another approach is to duct clean pressurized air into the cabinet from some other location and put a vent on the side of the box to allow the air to escape Thanks! The idea is good, but it won't work, as the machine is placed in the middle of the facility, so they will not accept the cost of implementing it. 2011/11/4 Mark Cason farmerboy1...@yahoo.com: Instead of using water, I know of a couple of high end industrial computer systems that have the motherboards submerged in chilled mineral oil. I do not think that customer will accept anything like that. And I think that there would be difficulties to see, what the monitor is showing, as it would be inside the oil. Viesturs -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
On 11/04/2011 08:32 AM, Viesturs Lācis wrote: 2011/11/4 Les Newellles.new...@fastmail.co.uk: In general wood dust does not affect computers that much. I have seen machines with piles of dust inside, still working fine day in day out. Heat is an issue so do as much as possible to keep it cool. Possibly fit an over sized CPU cooler. The thing is that machine works correctly for 40-50 mins, then malfunctions begin to appear - it does not run a file, when button is pressed and some other. Or it ruins a part, just as if motor had lost steps, but the trick is that next part if good without rehoming or any other activity taken - just change material and run the file. If the OS is not crashing then your problems are elsewhere as others have suggested. Depending on your motherboard, it's components temperature can be monitored with utilities like digitemp fancontrol hddtemp lm-sensors. I cannot tell how well they work with RT kernel and EMC as I haven't tried it. I put a thermometer with memory for high and low records in areas of interest many times. It helped me relate server crashes to environment temperatures. You might put such a thermometer in the control box for 24 hours to see what the extremes are. Temperature logger would be even better. You may want to check in Arduino world for such a sensor/shield solution. And the more machine is running the more often these malfunctions appear. That tells me that some parts in machine are overheating and thus not functioning properly. I would like to blame the dust that gets in all the narrow places on the boards and disturb normal heat dissipation. It's possible you have a poor connection somewhere. Connectors are metal which expands and contracts with a temperature and also act as unwanted vibration sensors. Check the connections first. It's also possible you have a component with a cold solder joint which also reacts to temperature and vibration. That would explain why your CNC system resumes working without errors at some point. Is it possible that the problem appears when the machine (tool, router etc.) is in a particular position? That could indicate a broken cable, more likely on older machines. To troubleshot such problems I use a screwdriver handle or some other insulated material and tap on different components or wiggle the wires to see if that triggers a problem. You might want to check screws that hold wires in connectors or terminal blocks. They tend to get lose or corrode sometimes. While wood is not causing electric problems most of the time, it's dust could bring moisture into the box that would cause connection problems or corrosion. And let's not forget grounding again. Make sure all is well grounded all the time. If you want to enclose the computer in a box, fit a fan on the side pushing air into the box. In other words the box becomes slightly pressurized. That stops dust from creeping in through cracks or door seals. Filter the air coming in with an air filter from an older car, the type that is just a big round ring that sits in a frying pan shaped housing. Clamp it to the side of your box with a round disc of wood or metal. You will have to replace the filter fairly regularly but they are quite cheap. That is why I would like to put them in totally sealed box. In that case I could implement water cooling for PC components. I like this idea but you need to monitor/check plumbing every once in a while which in my experience almost never happens. All equipment I ever supported in industrial environment come with instructions for regular maintenance. Some even include nice log books or sheets to keep track of it. I've seen empty pages too many times so that needs to be taken into consideration. Another option is to use heat-pipes which are frequently used to cool components inside sealed boxes in industrial and military systems. Search for DIY heat-pipes Heat-pipes are not going to cool every component of course, just those that touch it directly. Trouble is that they need to be custom made most of the time. Let me give you one link http://www.silentmods.com/section2/item230/ What should I do about monitor? Modern industrial monitors work well in wide temp range but cost more. Use either that or check how they solve this problem as others have suggested. Google heat exchanger design for tons of links. Many bigger commercial machines use air to air heat exchangers so the clean air inside the box and dirty air outside never mix. Any idea, how to do that in a cost-effective way? Viesturs See above. -- Rafael -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
On 4 November 2011 20:31, Viesturs Lācis viesturs.la...@gmail.com wrote: I already have convinced client to change the PC and to put it in dust-proof case. Is there the budget for, for example: http://teguar.com/waterproof-computers/nema-touch-computer/nema-6-computer/ -- atp The idea that there is no such thing as objective truth is, quite simply, wrong. -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
On Fri, 4 Nov 2011 22:31:11 +0200, you wrote: They have changed at least 3 LCD monitors in less than 2 years, so I think that also LCD monitors are not happy about the wood dust. What sort of LCD monitors and PC's? If they are plain domestic or commercial types, I'm not surprised - penny pinching in Industrial environments often works out more expensive than paying for the correct equipment in the first place :) I've fitted Industrial panel LCD monitors in a dye works plant where you can't see 10m for dust and they have survived several years. Likewise embedded fanless industrial grade PC's without any ill effects. The PC's are simply fitted inside large steel IP65 sealed enclosures with no cooling fans or ports. They are nothing special, just the sort of enclosure you would fit control or switch gear in. They are about 1m tall x .75m wide x .4m deep and have two PC's in them. The size is big enough for them never to get more than a few degrees above ambient. The PC's are only radiating about 20W and are designed to run at up to 60C continuous anyway. What don't last are keyboards - we've done away with them wherever possible and fitted touch screens. Incidentally, clogged up keyboards can cause all sorts of weird effects.. Steve Blackmore -- -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
On Friday, November 04, 2011 07:14:16 PM Viesturs Lācis did opine: 2011/11/4 Slavko Kocjancic esla...@gmail.com: This seems more driver board problem as PC overheating. If PC overheats then is more possible to hangup. I think you drive some electronic on the edge. Ie if you use printer port that is possible to work just in margin and when heat's up then doesn't work more. But another thing is that you say that after that error you can continue work that is wery strange. And as few people already say. Dry wood dust doesn't harm computer. But they accumulate on all fans and heatsinks and cause problems. Presurized case with fan with filter seems good idea. For monitor's there is no fan so no trouble of that kind should be expected. They have changed at least 3 LCD monitors in less than 2 years, so I think that also LCD monitors are not happy about the wood dust. That probably is not the dust at all. All of the earlier, non-led monitors have a switchmode, fairly high voltage supply to run the cold cathode CCFL lamp that is the source of light behind the screen. These are very high performance capacitors, and it doesn't take much in the way of ESR buildup before they die refuse to light the lamp. This Samsung Syncmaster 205BW has had those two $1.75 caps replaced twice, and the last time I think I got some good caps as its overdue for fresh ones and not miss-behaving yet. And the tendency that problems start to appear, when machine has worked a little while and after 6-10 hours it gets horrible, tells me that the dust is the problem exactly because of the reason You mentioned - it accumulates on surfaces and disrupts normal cooling of different electronic components. And as they are gradually overheating, they are starting to malfunction. Are You saying that there might be some disturbances in Mesa card? The machine has 4 steppers and Mesa 7i43 for step generation. There is VFD drive located next to it. Could magnetic field from VFD influence 7i43 card? Is there anything I can do to test, where exactly the problem is? I already have convinced client to change the PC and to put it in dust-proof case. But then I have to find the real cause of the problem to eliminate it, so that customer is happy - that is very large wood-working company that produces parts for IKEA and has total annual turnover of ~60M USD. 2011/11/4 Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com: I can't recommend a specific manufactured case, but the Intel Atom CPUs are known to work with EMC2 well. We have used the D510MO and now the D525MW with good latency and fine parallel port operation. These boards dissipate less than 12 W (actually, I think more like half that with EMC running), and have no fan. You can get a SATA SSD for the disk. Thanks! That is exactly my plan - D525MW board and SSD drive - I already have used D510/D525 in all of my previous EMC2-PC builds. So are You saying that if I fit LCD monitor, D525 board, SSD drive and usual 200W PSU with a fan to circulate the air in the box in a completely closed 500*500*100 mm box, it should be cool enough? I assume that heat from PSU is proportional to the load that is drawn from it. Is that correct? 2011/11/4 gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com: OTOH, I suspect your setup might be getting 20x the use mine is, so you might want to consider that. Machine has to operate 3 shifts a day, so basically - 24/7. 2011/11/4 Dave e...@dc9.tzo.com: Yet another approach is to duct clean pressurized air into the cabinet from some other location and put a vent on the side of the box to allow the air to escape Thanks! The idea is good, but it won't work, as the machine is placed in the middle of the facility, so they will not accept the cost of implementing it. 2011/11/4 Mark Cason farmerboy1...@yahoo.com: Instead of using water, I know of a couple of high end industrial computer systems that have the motherboards submerged in chilled mineral oil. I do not think that customer will accept anything like that. And I think that there would be difficulties to see, what the monitor is showing, as it would be inside the oil. Viesturs -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene Q: What do you call a half-dozen Indians with Asian flu? A: Six sick Sikhs (sic). -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
On Friday, November 04, 2011 07:21:14 PM Rafael Skodlar did opine: On 11/04/2011 08:32 AM, Viesturs Lؤپcis wrote: 2011/11/4 Les Newellles.new...@fastmail.co.uk: In general wood dust does not affect computers that much. I have seen machines with piles of dust inside, still working fine day in day out. Heat is an issue so do as much as possible to keep it cool. Possibly fit an over sized CPU cooler. The thing is that machine works correctly for 40-50 mins, then malfunctions begin to appear - it does not run a file, when button is pressed and some other. Or it ruins a part, just as if motor had lost steps, but the trick is that next part if good without rehoming or any other activity taken - just change material and run the file. If the OS is not crashing then your problems are elsewhere as others have suggested. Depending on your motherboard, it's components temperature can be monitored with utilities like digitemp fancontrol hddtemp lm-sensors. I cannot tell how well they work with RT kernel and EMC as I haven't tried it. I put a thermometer with memory for high and low records in areas of interest many times. It helped me relate server crashes to environment temperatures. You might put such a thermometer in the control box for 24 hours to see what the extremes are. Wallmart has these, reads humidity too, about a tenner in USD. Temperature logger would be even better. You may want to check in Arduino world for such a sensor/shield solution. And the more machine is running the more often these malfunctions appear. That tells me that some parts in machine are overheating and thus not functioning properly. I would like to blame the dust that gets in all the narrow places on the boards and disturb normal heat dissipation. It's possible you have a poor connection somewhere. Connectors are metal which expands and contracts with a temperature and also act as unwanted vibration sensors. Check the connections first. It's also possible you have a component with a cold solder joint which also reacts to temperature and vibration. That would explain why your CNC system resumes working without errors at some point. Is it possible that the problem appears when the machine (tool, router etc.) is in a particular position? That could indicate a broken cable, more likely on older machines. To troubleshot such problems I use a screwdriver handle or some other insulated material and tap on different components or wiggle the wires to see if that triggers a problem. You might want to check screws that hold wires in connectors or terminal blocks. They tend to get lose or corrode sometimes. While wood is not causing electric problems most of the time, it's dust could bring moisture into the box that would cause connection problems or corrosion. And let's not forget grounding again. Make sure all is well grounded all the time. If you want to enclose the computer in a box, fit a fan on the side pushing air into the box. In other words the box becomes slightly pressurized. That stops dust from creeping in through cracks or door seals. Filter the air coming in with an air filter from an older car, the type that is just a big round ring that sits in a frying pan shaped housing. Clamp it to the side of your box with a round disc of wood or metal. You will have to replace the filter fairly regularly but they are quite cheap. That is why I would like to put them in totally sealed box. In that case I could implement water cooling for PC components. I like this idea but you need to monitor/check plumbing every once in a while which in my experience almost never happens. All equipment I ever supported in industrial environment come with instructions for regular maintenance. Some even include nice log books or sheets to keep track of it. I've seen empty pages too many times so that needs to be taken into consideration. Another option is to use heat-pipes which are frequently used to cool components inside sealed boxes in industrial and military systems. Search for DIY heat-pipes Heat-pipes are not going to cool every component of course, just those that touch it directly. Trouble is that they need to be custom made most of the time. Let me give you one link http://www.silentmods.com/section2/item230/ What should I do about monitor? Modern industrial monitors work well in wide temp range but cost more. Use either that or check how they solve this problem as others have suggested. Google heat exchanger design for tons of links. Many bigger commercial machines use air to air heat exchangers so the clean air inside the box and dirty air outside never mix. Any idea, how to do that in a cost-effective way? Viesturs See above. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
On 11/4/2011 2:17 PM, Dave wrote: On 11/4/2011 12:40 PM, gene heskett wrote: On Friday, November 04, 2011 01:26:34 PM Viesturs Lācis did opine: Hello, gentlemen! I am in trouble with that double-spindle wood milling machine. It has a tendency to freeze up. I have been trying to understand, what is wrong, but the symptoms are telling that the problem is in the small wood dust, that gets inside PC case and everywhere else, because the more machine is working, the more errors it produce - let rest for few hours and it is back on track. My proposed solution - put PC and monitor in a totally closed, dust-proof case. My solution to that is to put the machine and motor driver electronics on a shelf about level with the counter spring pulley, with a lexan shield between the machine and the electrics. No attempt has been made to seal the computer case at all. I have cut a lot of wood with it, and have not had the machine collect enough dust to cause any problems. For my latest motor driver kit, the housing is built with pretty tight joints, with a 360 watt psu, a 6 ball bearing 120 volt rotron fan and 4 of the MM-542 drivers in it. The fan is to distribute the heat to the housing, which is either 1/8 or 3/16 alu plate. It gets pretty warm after a couple of hours, so another 6 rotron is sitting on edge on top of the enclosure blowing air across the top, and 4 hours later the front of the box is maybe 110F when its 70F in the shop. I'll do better at directing its air flow when the heat hits next summer. ;) But then there is a problem - how to cool the inside. I was thinking that PC components could be cooled with water, but I do not know, what to do with monitor. I have a wide screen 18 LCD, also on the other side of the lexan divider, and so far, knock on wood, zero problems. I think I vacuumed the outside once last summer. OTOH, I suspect your setup might be getting 20x the use mine is, so you might want to consider that. I personally lose 3 or 4 keyboards to one of any other problems, swarf is hell on keyboards. Could You, please, share Your experience and/or know-how about cases/boxes of PCs in industrial machines? Viesturs My $.0.02. :) Cheers, Gene Yet another approach is to duct clean pressurized air into the cabinet from some other location and put a vent on the side of the box to allow the air to escape. If you run some 3 dryer duct and feed that with a fan similar to a bathroom fan (cheap ones are less than $20 around here), you can get air 40+ feet from the machine and direct it into the panel. It doesn't take much pressure to keep all of the dust out of the panel. Dave One more option: A panel air conditioner. Hoffman sells them. I think that Rittal might sell them also. Seal everything up and cool it with with the AC. I put an EMC2 system in a plant that cuts foam which gives off some very corrosive gases.The machine has been running everyday for a year and a half. The gases are so corrosive that any Stainless Steel less than 316 rusts. 316 just turns dark.Both the computer and the screen are inside the cooled cabinet. Dave -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
On 11/4/2011 9:17 PM, Dave wrote: On 11/4/2011 2:17 PM, Dave wrote: On 11/4/2011 12:40 PM, gene heskett wrote: On Friday, November 04, 2011 01:26:34 PM Viesturs Lācis did opine: Hello, gentlemen! I am in trouble with that double-spindle wood milling machine. It has a tendency to freeze up. I have been trying to understand, what is wrong, but the symptoms are telling that the problem is in the small wood dust, that gets inside PC case and everywhere else, because the more machine is working, the more errors it produce - let rest for few hours and it is back on track. My proposed solution - put PC and monitor in a totally closed, dust-proof case. My solution to that is to put the machine and motor driver electronics on a shelf about level with the counter spring pulley, with a lexan shield between the machine and the electrics. No attempt has been made to seal the computer case at all. I have cut a lot of wood with it, and have not had the machine collect enough dust to cause any problems. For my latest motor driver kit, the housing is built with pretty tight joints, with a 360 watt psu, a 6 ball bearing 120 volt rotron fan and 4 of the MM-542 drivers in it. The fan is to distribute the heat to the housing, which is either 1/8 or 3/16 alu plate. It gets pretty warm after a couple of hours, so another 6 rotron is sitting on edge on top of the enclosure blowing air across the top, and 4 hours later the front of the box is maybe 110F when its 70F in the shop. I'll do better at directing its air flow when the heat hits next summer. ;) But then there is a problem - how to cool the inside. I was thinking that PC components could be cooled with water, but I do not know, what to do with monitor. I have a wide screen 18 LCD, also on the other side of the lexan divider, and so far, knock on wood, zero problems. I think I vacuumed the outside once last summer. OTOH, I suspect your setup might be getting 20x the use mine is, so you might want to consider that. I personally lose 3 or 4 keyboards to one of any other problems, swarf is hell on keyboards. Could You, please, share Your experience and/or know-how about cases/boxes of PCs in industrial machines? Viesturs My $.0.02. :) Cheers, Gene Yet another approach is to duct clean pressurized air into the cabinet from some other location and put a vent on the side of the box to allow the air to escape. If you run some 3 dryer duct and feed that with a fan similar to a bathroom fan (cheap ones are less than $20 around here), you can get air 40+ feet from the machine and direct it into the panel. It doesn't take much pressure to keep all of the dust out of the panel. Dave One more option: A panel air conditioner. Hoffman sells them. I think that Rittal might sell them also. Seal everything up and cool it with with the AC. I put an EMC2 system in a plant that cuts foam which gives off some very corrosive gases.The machine has been running everyday for a year and a half. The gases are so corrosive that any Stainless Steel less than 316 rusts. 316 just turns dark.Both the computer and the screen are inside the cooled cabinet. Dave Hey, if they are milling that particle board... what are they using for a binder in that stuff now?? They used to use some type of formaldehyde binder but I think they got rid of that due to off gassing making people sick..Are you seeing any signs of corrosion on the PC?? Are the machines frames and bolts corroding at all? On the PC, look at things like the Ethernet connector shell and the USB ports - the shiny plated metal will start to dull if you have a corrosion problem. Dave -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dust-proof case?
On Friday, November 04, 2011 11:39:28 PM Dave did opine: On 11/4/2011 9:17 PM, Dave wrote: On 11/4/2011 2:17 PM, Dave wrote: On 11/4/2011 12:40 PM, gene heskett wrote: On Friday, November 04, 2011 01:26:34 PM Viesturs Lؤپcis did opine: Hello, gentlemen! I am in trouble with that double-spindle wood milling machine. It has a tendency to freeze up. I have been trying to understand, what is wrong, but the symptoms are telling that the problem is in the small wood dust, that gets inside PC case and everywhere else, because the more machine is working, the more errors it produce - let rest for few hours and it is back on track. My proposed solution - put PC and monitor in a totally closed, dust-proof case. My solution to that is to put the machine and motor driver electronics on a shelf about level with the counter spring pulley, with a lexan shield between the machine and the electrics. No attempt has been made to seal the computer case at all. I have cut a lot of wood with it, and have not had the machine collect enough dust to cause any problems. For my latest motor driver kit, the housing is built with pretty tight joints, with a 360 watt psu, a 6 ball bearing 120 volt rotron fan and 4 of the MM-542 drivers in it. The fan is to distribute the heat to the housing, which is either 1/8 or 3/16 alu plate. It gets pretty warm after a couple of hours, so another 6 rotron is sitting on edge on top of the enclosure blowing air across the top, and 4 hours later the front of the box is maybe 110F when its 70F in the shop. I'll do better at directing its air flow when the heat hits next summer. ;) But then there is a problem - how to cool the inside. I was thinking that PC components could be cooled with water, but I do not know, what to do with monitor. I have a wide screen 18 LCD, also on the other side of the lexan divider, and so far, knock on wood, zero problems. I think I vacuumed the outside once last summer. OTOH, I suspect your setup might be getting 20x the use mine is, so you might want to consider that. I personally lose 3 or 4 keyboards to one of any other problems, swarf is hell on keyboards. Could You, please, share Your experience and/or know-how about cases/boxes of PCs in industrial machines? Viesturs My $.0.02. :) Cheers, Gene Yet another approach is to duct clean pressurized air into the cabinet from some other location and put a vent on the side of the box to allow the air to escape. If you run some 3 dryer duct and feed that with a fan similar to a bathroom fan (cheap ones are less than $20 around here), you can get air 40+ feet from the machine and direct it into the panel. It doesn't take much pressure to keep all of the dust out of the panel. Dave One more option: A panel air conditioner. Hoffman sells them. I think that Rittal might sell them also. Seal everything up and cool it with with the AC. I put an EMC2 system in a plant that cuts foam which gives off some very corrosive gases.The machine has been running everyday for a year and a half. The gases are so corrosive that any Stainless Steel less than 316 rusts. 316 just turns dark.Both the computer and the screen are inside the cooled cabinet. Dave Hey, if they are milling that particle board... what are they using for a binder in that stuff now?? They used to use some type of formaldehyde binder but I think they got rid of that due to off gassing making people sick..Are you seeing any signs of corrosion on the PC?? Are the machines frames and bolts corroding at all? On the PC, look at things like the Ethernet connector shell and the USB ports - the shiny plated metal will start to dull if you have a corrosion problem. Dave It hasn't made dust of more than an ounce of particle board if that much. I use real woods, maple, cherry, walnut, white ash, even poplar but little or no plywood, OSB or MDF. If a pad of MDF is under the workpiece, it will probably get touched by 10 thou of the bit if the machining goes all the way through. Generally it doesn't. I have had some rust problems, but I rigged up a small heater on a separate thermostat, cranked up if I'm working in there for any length of time, but normally set for about 40-45F, whatever it takes to keep the temps above the dew point in an un-insulated, T-111 walled 12x16 shed. I have one of those 10 dollar temp and humidity gizmo's stuck the the upper cover of the bandsaw, and if I see the humidity is above 50%, I'll dial it up 5 or 10 degrees. Really really cold, there is another 1.5kw heater I can turn on, but its electronic thermostat doesn't go below 60F, and its power failure mode is to forget it was turned on. I keep both of them clear of flammables obviously. That doesn't mean I haven't had 6 or more of wood dust on the
