Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
On 7/28/2012 8:52 PM, andy pugh wrote: On 29 July 2012 01:41, Jon Elsonel...@pico-systems.com wrote: I think one of the commercial units either shifts the projector or moves the image with a mirror to get higher resolution. I am really good at inventing stuff. One of these days I will invent something for the first time :-) Yep... Things were more optimistic before the invention of the web. Look at what I have invented!... that joy is almost always killed with a quick google search. :-( Dave -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
On 7/28/2012 8:52 PM, andy pugh wrote: On 29 July 2012 01:41, Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com wrote: I think one of the commercial units either shifts the projector or moves the image with a mirror to get higher resolution. I am really good at inventing stuff. One of these days I will invent something for the first time :-) Do you remember Peter Cook? Peter dealt with this subject brilliantly 50 years ago with his discussion of the invention of the wheel. I couldn't find it in a quick sweep of YouTube but I did find a transcription in the book Tragically, I Was An Only Twin: The Complete Peter Cook (which I highly recommend; tragically my LPs of his work---Beyond The Fringe 1 and 2 and various Peter Cook/Dudley shows---have gone the way of my BetaMax). ---transcribed from Google Books; errors are mine, mostly--- THE MAN WHO INVENTED THE WHEEL - On the Braden Beat, ITV, 1964 During the last few weeks I've been trying to think of something absolutely original and devastating. I've been trying to lay my hands on some idea that'll revolutionise [yes, Cook was British:-)] the world in some way---something like fire, or the wheel. Of course it's no good thinking of these two because they've already been invented, but something along those lines. It's a good thing to do, you know. I mean, look at the man who thought of fire. He could have made an absolute fortune. As soon as he thought of it he should have invented it, and every time anybody lit a fire they'd have to pay him a royalty. But being a rather primitive person he didn't thing of that. The same thing happened to the bloke who thought of the wheel. Actually, nobody really knows who was the first person to invent the wheel. It's all shrouded in mystery. Apparently, in primeval times, there were these two primitive people, who were both working on inventions in their caves. They were called Brodbar and Gorbly---two extremely primitive people. Then one day, Drodbar came out with a great smile all over his hairy face, and he said 'Guess what? I've invented the bandanbladderstiddle. It's absolutely brilliant. Brilliant!' And so Gorbly came out, and said 'Hello Drodbar. I hear you've invented the bandanbladderstiddle. Congratulations. Er, what exactly is it?' And Drodbar said 'It's a wonderful device that will revolutionise the world. It's very simple. It's a round thing that's easy to push along. That's all.' And then Gorbly went white, and said in a strangled voice 'It hasn't be any chance got spokes on it, has it?' 'Yes it has, as a matter of fact,' said Drodbar. 'How the devil did you know?' And Gorbly said That's not a bandanbladderstiddle you stupid idiot. That's a wheel, and I invented it first. How dare you steal my idea?' And a great fight broke out between them, and if the man who invented fire hadn't come along and threatened to set light to them both, they might have killed each other. Anyway, there was a great dispute, and all the hairy old Neanderthals met together at Stonehenge---a lovely place---to decide who really thought of it first. And eventually, after days and days of argument, they come to the conclusion that although it seemed likely that Drodbar thought of his bandanbladderstiddle before Gorbly thought of his wheel, nevertheless they were going to give the credit to Gorbly because he thought of a much better name for it. I think they were right, actually. I mean, think of going into a garage and asking them to put a bit more air into your bandanbladderstiddle. Still, you can't help feeling sorry for poor old Drodbar, you know. He went into a great depression and went round mumbling and moaning about his wretched old bandanbladderstiddle. Eventually, he was run down by the world's first pterodactyl-drawn chariot---a terrible end. I know lots of people who've thought of things just a little too late. Poor old Spotty Muldoon. He thought of splitting the atom the other day. If only he could have had the idea about thirty years ago. He'd have made a bloody fortune. ---end--- Regards, Kent -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill, a PS
On 7/29/2012 2:52 PM, Kent A. Reed wrote: On 7/28/2012 8:52 PM, andy pugh wrote: On 29 July 2012 01:41, Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com wrote: I think one of the commercial units either shifts the projector or moves the image with a mirror to get higher resolution. I am really good at inventing stuff. One of these days I will invent something for the first time :-) Do you remember Peter Cook? Peter dealt with this subject brilliantly 50 years ago with his discussion of the invention of the wheel. I couldn't find it in a quick sweep of YouTube but I did find a transcription in the book Tragically, I Was An Only Twin: The Complete Peter Cook (which I highly recommend; tragically my LPs of his work---Beyond The Fringe 1 and 2 and various Peter Cook/Dudley shows---have gone the way of my BetaMax). Huh. I was just looking on YouTube for something else and this time got a hit on an audio clip of this same routine. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfLahRJBCJs Go figure. I'm no longer sure of the way YouTube's search engine works. Regards, Kent -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
On Jul 27, 2012, at 10:10 AM, Jon Elson wrote: Not to mention no need for support material. Not true. In fact, that is about the only drawback to the DLP system, is there is no way to make a model with a different (soluble) support material. There are certainly some models that have separable parts or gaps in the parts that could use a support material. Proper layout of the build can sometimes overcome this by building at an angle. Hi Jon, I guess i should have said that it requires less support material since the fluid is there to support the area as it is cured. In other words, each layer is buoyant - unlike the plastic extrusion printers. The other drawback is the fixed number of pixels on the projector. A guy in England is working on using the spinning mirror from a laser printer, a powerful blue diode laser and a carriage to scan the raster down the vat to make a machine that has high resolution over a larger build area. His early tests look quite promising. But, he will have to develop custom electronics, probably using an FPGA, to modulate the laser to produce the raster. (It is possible to gut a laser printer and fudge the myriad sensor inputs, but it might be a lot easier to just start from scratch.) Yeah, the limited size is the main reason why I didn't consider funding the Kickstarter project. The build area at 100 microns is only 4x3 inches and only 2x1.5 at 50 microns. Using an HD projector would of course increase that size to an almost practical size (still 8x6 inches is pretty small). But going that route, I would be better off just building my own so I don't pay for two projectors. Now if I did jewelry, the stock size would be much more suitable. I wonder about using 4 HD projectors or would optical distortion along the edges be a problem? That would allow a roughly 15.5x11.6 build size at 100 microns. Best, Jeshua Lacock Founder/Engineer 3DTOPO Incorporated http://3DTOPO.com Phone: 208.462.4171 -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
On 28 July 2012 22:59, Jeshua Lacock jes...@3dtopo.com wrote: I wonder about using 4 HD projectors or would optical distortion along the edges be a problem? You could move the build platform around above the single projector. (or the projector under the platform) -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
On Jul 28, 2012, at 4:07 PM, andy pugh wrote: On 28 July 2012 22:59, Jeshua Lacock jes...@3dtopo.com wrote: I wonder about using 4 HD projectors or would optical distortion along the edges be a problem? You could move the build platform around above the single projector. (or the projector under the platform) Hi Andy, Great thought! It is so obvious too, can't believe I didn't think of it. I wonder if barrel distortion from the projector would still be a problem? I suppose if it was it could be compensated for in software - just like there is software to remove lens distortion from photos... Cheers, Jeshua Lacock Founder/Engineer 3DTOPO Incorporated http://3DTOPO.com Phone: 208.462.4171 -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
Jeshua Lacock wrote: I guess i should have said that it requires less support material since the fluid is there to support the area as it is cured. In other words, each layer is buoyant - unlike the plastic extrusion printers. OK, in a sense, yes. The cured material will be about the same density as the uncured resin, but everything needs to be tied together as the build platform breaks the model free from the vat floor and raises it one layer thickness. Yeah, the limited size is the main reason why I didn't consider funding the Kickstarter project. The build area at 100 microns is only 4x3 inches and only 2x1.5 at 50 microns. Using an HD projector would of course increase that size to an almost practical size (still 8x6 inches is pretty small). But going that route, I would be better off just building my own so I don't pay for two projectors. Now if I did jewelry, the stock size would be much more suitable. I wonder about using 4 HD projectors or would optical distortion along the edges be a problem? That would allow a roughly 15.5x11.6 build size at 100 microns. To my knowledge, no DIY type has done this. I think one of the commercial units either shifts the projector or moves the image with a mirror to get higher resolution. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
On 29 July 2012 01:41, Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com wrote: I think one of the commercial units either shifts the projector or moves the image with a mirror to get higher resolution. I am really good at inventing stuff. One of these days I will invent something for the first time :-) -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
On Jul 26, 2012, at 10:35 PM, dave wrote: I like the inverted approach. More to the point what is the absorbtion max wavelength for the polymer? In more specific terms what wavelength gives the best polymerization? Curious minds want to know. ;-) To put in simpler terms what emission source is likely to maximize polymerization? Hi Dave, I think traditionally DLP has used UV. I am not sure about the b9 resin, but it apparently uses visible light. You might try asking Michael Joyce: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/b9creations/b9creator-a-high-resolution-3d-printer Or perhaps the yahoo user group Jon mentioned: diy_3d_printing_and_fabricat...@yahoogroups.com Best, Jeshua Lacock Founder/Engineer 3DTOPO Incorporated http://3DTOPO.com Phone: 208.462.4171 -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
On 27 July 2012 05:09, Jeshua Lacock jes...@3dtopo.com wrote: Not to mention no need for support material. I think you do need support, or isolated islands of material will either not be lifted and/or wont get dragged and unstuck. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
Jeshua Lacock wrote: Yes, I am familiar with the project and DLP printing technology. I did not know about the patent work-around however. Yes, the guys on that group, especially Michael Joyce did a lot of work to deconstruct what the patents did, and didn't cover, so he could be sure to not infringe. True, but the resin is much less expensive from the b9 project. The b9 resin is closer to $100 per liter, but still. Well, a 75 mm cube is 420 ccs, and your vat probably ends up being bigger than that. The resin probably deteriorates by being exposed to air for a long time. Also, the wiper and other surface leveling schemes are covered by patents, and these may have covered all the logical systems, as well as making the printer a lot more complicated. Not to mention no need for support material. Not true. In fact, that is about the only drawback to the DLP system, is there is no way to make a model with a different (soluble) support material. There are certainly some models that have separable parts or gaps in the parts that could use a support material. Proper layout of the build can sometimes overcome this by building at an angle. The other drawback is the fixed number of pixels on the projector. A guy in England is working on using the spinning mirror from a laser printer, a powerful blue diode laser and a carriage to scan the raster down the vat to make a machine that has high resolution over a larger build area. His early tests look quite promising. But, he will have to develop custom electronics, probably using an FPGA, to modulate the laser to produce the raster. (It is possible to gut a laser printer and fudge the myriad sensor inputs, but it might be a lot easier to just start from scratch.) Jon Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
dave wrote: I like the inverted approach. More to the point what is the absorbtion max wavelength for the polymer? In more specific terms what wavelength gives the best polymerization? Curious minds want to know. ;-) To put in simpler terms what emission source is likely to maximize polymerization? Due to the availability of the DLP projectors, these guys went to a lot of trouble to come up with visible-sensitive photoinitiators. They work around 280 - 420 nm, with good sensitivity at 405 nm, which a DLP projector will pass, and the lamps have a little peak at 405 from the Hg in them. If you can get illumination at 385 nm, there are more initiators available. Fernando in Spain has a business supplying resin systems at excellent prices, I'm pretty sure he is the resin supplier to the b9creator project, and a number of other people on the group are also using his resin. Fernando has a web site with a list of the resins he has for sale, he has a variety of physical properties as well as light sensitivities available. He has a link on the diy3d group. With 8 seconds/layer exposure, I think the optical part is well in hand. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
Hi Jon i want to be sure about how any plastic introduce- ejected from head. Is this continues flow or this is drop by drop of plastic material? i think that when build the border of work-part where accuracy is needed to be drop of material and inside work-part possible continues flow to do fast. Size of the each drop will determine accuracy of whole system. i think size of drop should be around 0.001-0.005 or bigger. When accuracy of drop be between 0.001-0.005 there may not need for –“the wiper and other surface leveling schemes are covered by patents, and these may have” Have a small drop of plastic size of 0.001-0.005” can help with curing when used with heated wax. Plastic is important material but also many wax model used to make casting for commercial application. Also, servo system that controls ejection of plastic/wax material should be same as those that controls X Y Z motion of the head. That will make setting of machine much robust and less experimental. I think EMC2 can be good in this. Thanks Aram Yes, I am familiar with the project and DLP printing technology. I did not know about the patent work-around however. Yes, the guys on that group, especially Michael Joyce did a lot of work to deconstruct what the patents did, and didn't cover, so he could be sure to not infringe. True, but the resin is much less expensive from the b9 project. The b9 resin is closer to $100 per liter, but still. Well, a 75 mm cube is 420 ccs, and your vat probably ends up being bigger than that. The resin probably deteriorates by being exposed to air for a long time. Also, the wiper and other surface leveling schemes are covered by patents, and these may have covered all the logical systems, as well as making the printer a lot more complicated. Not to mention no need for support material. Not true. In fact, that is about the only drawback to the DLP system, is there is no way to make a model with a different (soluble) support material. There are certainly some models that have separable parts or gaps in the parts that could use a support material. Proper layout of the build can sometimes overcome this by building at an angle. The other drawback is the fixed number of pixels on the projector. A guy in England is working on using the spinning mirror from a laser printer, a powerful blue diode laser and a carriage to scan the raster down the vat to make a machine that has high resolution over a larger build area. His early tests look quite promising. But, he will have to develop custom electronics, probably using an FPGA, to modulate the laser to produce the raster. (It is possible to gut a laser printer and fudge the myriad sensor inputs, but it might be a lot easier to just start from scratch.) Jon Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
On 27 July 2012 17:10, Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com wrote: will have to develop custom electronics, probably using an FPGA, to modulate the laser to produce the raster. Maybe a HAL module? 1024x768x50kHz = 15 seconds per layer. (with scope for efficiences such as short scans) -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
a...@conceptmachinery.com wrote: Hi Jon i want to be sure about how any plastic introduce- ejected from head. No, this DLP system works with a vat of liquid resin that is hardened by exposure to light from the projector. There are no drops, printing head or anything like that. The layer image is projected up through the bottom of the vat for about 8 seconds, then the build platform is raised to allow new resin to flow under it, and the process is repeated. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
andy pugh wrote: On 27 July 2012 17:10, Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com wrote: will have to develop custom electronics, probably using an FPGA, to modulate the laser to produce the raster. Maybe a HAL module? 1024x768x50kHz = 15 seconds per layer. (with scope for efficiences such as short scans) Because the beam sweeps far past the vat and only the middle part of the sweep is used to maintain the best linearity, the pixel frequency is probably higher than this. But, the amount of data actually in a layer is quite small. It could probably be compressed by run-length encoding to make a compact data format. For each sweep, the beam is turned on until it hits a detector with a slit in front of it, then it starts the clock to time out the pixels. This should be pretty easy to do in an FPGA, but would be pretty much impossible directly by software. I think somebody is doing it with the DMA channel on an Arduino or similar micro, too. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
On Thu, 2012-07-26 at 22:04 -0600, Jeshua Lacock wrote: deliver low cost more than anything There's a good reason why the commercial outfits charge what they do (other than that they can). But the resolution of DIY printers is now good enough that second-order stuff like rigidity and control bandwidth matter, so ... that must start happening. I am also curious how the filament feeders could be improved. Use a ribbon filament fed into a cylindrical heater; the increased surface area improves both traction and heat transfer. The original patents cover a spring-loaded shutoff valve that might not work nearly as well as described when immersed in viscous goo. IIRC, there's a crosswise plunger shutoff, too. Rather than retracting the filament with the feed motor, lift the feed assembly with a solenoid by a specified amount to depressurize the nozzle. I should have taken better notes; it got overwhelming after a while. Not to mention that reading patents makes an absolutely marvelous insomnia cure... -- Ed http://softsolder.com -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
On Wed, 2012-07-25 at 22:19 -0600, Jeshua Lacock wrote: like what for instance? Stabilized build environments, extruders with flow-control valves, improved filament feeders, less rickety mechanics... Basically, all the obvious improvements. [grin] -- Ed http://softsolder.com -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
Jeshua Lacock wrote: I am just curious, like what for instance? I am monitoring a group working on curing liquid resin with light from a DLP computer projector. There are a number of machines working, and a guy has done a kickstarter project that accumulated over $500,000, now he has to deliver 200 complete 3D printers. A number of people working in this area are having to work around several active patents on releasing the model from the build vat. The scheme projects the image through the clear bottom of the vat, using the vat to keep the layer level. The model sticks to the vat bottom. An obvious scheme to release it is to tilt the vat, that is covered by a patent. The latest scheme, used in the kickstarter project, is to use a layer of PDMS (a type of clear silicone) to prevent the curing of a tiny layer right at the surface. You still get a suction effect, so he slides the model over to a region where the floor is lower, breaking the suction. This apparently avoids any patent infringement. The reason for projecting through the bottom is so you don't have to fill the entire vat with expensive resin, at several hundred dollars per liter. You only need to keep the vat filled to a depth of a couple mm, and replenish as it is consumed by the build. Also, if you build from the top, you need some kind of wiper to level the resin surface, again you run into patent issues. The advantage of this over FDM/FFF (reprap style) is that an entire layer of arbitrary complexity can be built in parallel, and at about 8-10 seconds/layer. The object is totally solid, no voids between the extruded filaments. See the Yahoo group diy_3d_printing_and_fabricat...@yahoogroups.com for more info, pictures of what people have built, etc. Mochael Joyce's kickstarter project b9creator is at http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/b9creations/b9creator-a-high-resolution-3d-printer Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
On Jul 26, 2012, at 6:54 AM, Ed Nisley wrote: On Wed, 2012-07-25 at 22:19 -0600, Jeshua Lacock wrote: like what for instance? Stabilized build environments, extruders with flow-control valves, improved filament feeders, less rickety mechanics... Basically, all the obvious improvements. [grin] Hi Ed, Seems like the rickety mechanics are to deliver low cost more than anything. ;) In that regard, what do the patents protect? I am also curious how the filament feeders could be improved. Cheers, Jeshua Lacock Founder/Engineer 3DTOPO Incorporated http://3DTOPO.com Phone: 208.462.4171 -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
On Jul 26, 2012, at 10:53 AM, Jon Elson wrote: Jeshua Lacock wrote: I am just curious, like what for instance? I am monitoring a group working on curing liquid resin with light from a DLP computer projector. There are a number of machines working, and a guy has done a kickstarter project that accumulated over $500,000, now he has to deliver 200 complete 3D printers. A number of people working in this area are having to work around several active patents on releasing the model from the build vat. The scheme projects the image through the clear bottom of the vat, using the vat to keep the layer level. The model sticks to the vat bottom. An obvious scheme to release it is to tilt the vat, that is covered by a patent. The latest scheme, used in the kickstarter project, is to use a layer of PDMS (a type of clear silicone) to prevent the curing of a tiny layer right at the surface. You still get a suction effect, so he slides the model over to a region where the floor is lower, breaking the suction. This apparently avoids any patent infringement. Hi Jon, Yes, I am familiar with the project and DLP printing technology. I did not know about the patent work-around however. The reason for projecting through the bottom is so you don't have to fill the entire vat with expensive resin, at several hundred dollars per liter. You only need to keep the vat filled to a depth of a couple mm, and replenish as it is consumed by the build. Also, if you build from the top, you need some kind of wiper to level the resin surface, again you run into patent issues. True, but the resin is much less expensive from the b9 project. The b9 resin is closer to $100 per liter, but still. The advantage of this over FDM/FFF (reprap style) is that an entire layer of arbitrary complexity can be built in parallel, and at about 8-10 seconds/layer. Not to mention no need for support material. ;) Cheers, Jeshua Lacock Founder/Engineer 3DTOPO Incorporated http://3DTOPO.com Phone: 208.462.4171 -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
On Thu, 2012-07-26 at 22:09 -0600, Jeshua Lacock wrote: On Jul 26, 2012, at 10:53 AM, Jon Elson wrote: Jeshua Lacock wrote: I am just curious, like what for instance? I am monitoring a group working on curing liquid resin with light from a DLP computer projector. There are a number of machines working, and a guy has done a kickstarter project that accumulated over $500,000, now he has to deliver 200 complete 3D printers. A number of people working in this area are having to work around several active patents on releasing the model from the build vat. The scheme projects the image through the clear bottom of the vat, using the vat to keep the layer level. The model sticks to the vat bottom. An obvious scheme to release it is to tilt the vat, that is covered by a patent. The latest scheme, used in the kickstarter project, is to use a layer of PDMS (a type of clear silicone) to prevent the curing of a tiny layer right at the surface. You still get a suction effect, so he slides the model over to a region where the floor is lower, breaking the suction. This apparently avoids any patent infringement. Hi Jon, Yes, I am familiar with the project and DLP printing technology. I did not know about the patent work-around however. The reason for projecting through the bottom is so you don't have to fill the entire vat with expensive resin, at several hundred dollars per liter. You only need to keep the vat filled to a depth of a couple mm, and replenish as it is consumed by the build. Also, if you build from the top, you need some kind of wiper to level the resin surface, again you run into patent issues. True, but the resin is much less expensive from the b9 project. The b9 resin is closer to $100 per liter, but still. The advantage of this over FDM/FFF (reprap style) is that an entire layer of arbitrary complexity can be built in parallel, and at about 8-10 seconds/layer. Not to mention no need for support material. ;) Cheers, Jeshua Lacock Founder/Engineer 3DTOPO Incorporated http://3DTOPO.com Phone: 208.462.4171 I like the inverted approach. More to the point what is the absorbtion max wavelength for the polymer? In more specific terms what wavelength gives the best polymerization? Curious minds want to know. ;-) To put in simpler terms what emission source is likely to maximize polymerization? Dave dave -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
Hi I did ask about rapid prototype machine and got helpful directions. I check about reprap technology Those all was close but not what i ask for. I am looking for real - real- rapid prototype. What this means ? 1. rapid prototype should have 2 liquid materials-- main material and support material. 2. rapid prototype must have CNC programmable head - like with EMC2 AC servomotor that open close needle valve that controls amount of plastic that introduced with head. 3. rapid prototype must have accuracy around on 0.005 to have real use to make real commercial model prototype. CNC programmable head must be able to change accuracy from 0.001-0.01 by changing M code in CNC program. EMC2 is good to use for that --by allocating 2 or 3 programmable axis only to control head of real rapid prototype machine. problem with reprap is that their main idea is to make cheap machine -under $ 1000- but not real rapid prototype machine. Real head for rapid prototype machine may cost a lone up to $5000 and shop will buy it because with it one can convert any size of CNC mill into high performers rapid prototype machine. thanks aram -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
On 25 July 2012 08:15, a...@conceptmachinery.com wrote: Those all was close but not what i ask for. I am looking for real - real- rapid prototype. What this means ? It probably means a visit from the Stratasys lawyers. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
On Wed, 2012-07-25 at 01:15 -0600, a...@conceptmachinery.com wrote: problem with reprap is that their main idea is to make cheap machine -under $ 1000- but not real rapid prototype machine. Although I don't have any inside information, I believe the reason DIY 3D printers have (or don't have) specific features is that most of the original patents remain in effect. These seem to be the fundamental patents: http://softsolder.com/2012/06/29/fundamental-3d-printing-patents/ The patent documents include links to more recent patents that refer back to them, so you can devote as much time as you wish to determining that the neat idea *you* just had has already been invented, patented, and reduced to practice. It worked that way for me, anyhow... [grin] Although converting a CNC mill to a 3D printer seems attractive, I think the second-order effects will make it impractical: speed, cleanliness, ambient environment, stuff like that. As one of my managers put it: You must first decide whether you're designing a waffle iron or a toaster. Which is not to say that you can't do it for yourself. What you almost certainly *can't* do is invent a commercially viable 3D printer and sell it with impunity... -- Ed http://softsolder.com -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
On 7/25/2012 8:58 AM, Ed Nisley wrote: As one of my managers put it: You must first decide whether you're designing a waffle iron or a toaster. A man wise beyond his years :-) We seem more in the Saturday Night Live camp: New Shimmer is both a floor wax *and* a dessert topping. Regards, Kent -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
On Wednesday 25 July 2012 12:02:11 Kent A. Reed did opine: On 7/25/2012 8:58 AM, Ed Nisley wrote: As one of my managers put it: You must first decide whether you're designing a waffle iron or a toaster. A man wise beyond his years :-) We seem more in the Saturday Night Live camp: New Shimmer is both a floor wax *and* a dessert topping. Regards, Kent ROTFLMAO! Thanks Kent, I needed a good chuckle. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! Azh nazg durbatal^uk, azh nazg gimbatul, Azh nazg thrakatal^uk agh burzum ishi krimpatul! -- J. R. R. Tolkien -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
Although I don't have any inside information, I believe the reason DIY 3D printers have (or don't have) specific features is that most of the original patents remain in effect. Patent in US has only 15 years life. I have US patent personally on my name - not through any company etc. I can write patent application to US PTO my self and pay only standard fee. In special case -like pharmacy drug patent life can go up to 18 years. That is all. All those patent that you refer are too old and antiquated. Every manufacturing company incorporate in there product 2 parts. Part 1- is what customer need and willing to pay. Part 2 is add things that only increase price -costumer does not need that at all - and can not be option out. About waffle iron i think that all EMC2 is people that do just that. Do thing that other think impossible. These seem to be the fundamental patents: http://softsolder.com/2012/06/29/fundamental-3d-printing-patents/ The patent documents include links to more recent patents that refer back to them, so you can devote as much time as you wish to determining that the neat idea *you* just had has already been invented, patented, and reduced to practice. It worked that way for me, anyhow... [grin] Although converting a CNC mill to a 3D printer seems attractive, I think the second-order effects will make it impractical: speed, cleanliness, ambient environment, stuff like that. As one of my managers put it: You must first decide whether you're designing a waffle iron or a toaster. Which is not to say that you can't do it for yourself. What you almost certainly *can't* do is invent a commercially viable 3D printer and sell it with impunity... -- Ed http://softsolder.com -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
On Jul 25, 2012, at 1:15 AM, a...@conceptmachinery.com wrote: Those all was close but not what i ask for. I am looking for real - real- rapid prototype. What this means ? 1. rapid prototype should have 2 liquid materials-- main material and support material. Hi Aram, Actually, the MakerBot Replicator has two print heads as an option. And others have added a second head to RepRap, Ultimaker, etc. It is then possible to print the part with ABS and the support with PLA. PLA can then be dissolved while leaving the ABS intact: http://www.makerbot.com/blog/2010/10/19/pla-proven-as-a-dissolveable-support-material/ Or a slower method is just using hot water: http://www.bitsfrombytes.com/forum/post/safe-support-material-removal-really-works An other option is to print the supports with water soluble PVA: http://wiki.makerbot.com/pva 2. rapid prototype must have CNC programmable head - like with EMC2 AC servomotor that open close needle valve that controls amount of plastic that introduced with head. The MakerBot MK7 head does just that: http://store.makerbot.com/stepstruder-mk7-complete.html 3. rapid prototype must have accuracy around on 0.005 to have real use to make real commercial model prototype. CNC programmable head must be able to change accuracy from 0.001-0.01 by changing M code in CNC program. I personally don't see this as a major hurdle. Currently print resolution can be changed by manually changing out the print nozzle. There is no reason why an adjustable print aperture or automated tool changer could not be developed though. Cheers, Jeshua Lacock Founder/Engineer 3DTOPO Incorporated http://3DTOPO.com Phone: 208.462.4171 -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
On Wed, 2012-07-25 at 11:14 -0600, a...@conceptmachinery.com wrote: Patent in US has only 15 years life. That is, unfortunately, incorrect, but the right answer isn't easy to figure out: http://www.patentlens.net/daisy/patentlens/2973.html All those patent that you refer are too old and antiquated. The earliest 3D printing patents are, indeed, beginning to expire, so I expect to see a bunch of interesting developments in the DIY field. However, the fact that older patents expire does not mean that the companies haven't been busy filing derivative patents with similar claims. Following the patent trail up to the present time can provide hours of mingled admiration and horror ... [grin] -- Ed http://softsolder.com -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
On 2012-07-25 18:19, Ed Nisley wrote: On Wed, 2012-07-25 at 11:14 -0600, a...@conceptmachinery.com wrote: Patent in US has only 15 years life. That is, unfortunately, incorrect, but the right answer isn't easy to figure out: http://www.patentlens.net/daisy/patentlens/2973.html All those patent that you refer are too old and antiquated. Hi few things about patent. Main recommendation is to try to manufacture products first and after think about patent. Only 1% from all patents actually produced and sold and returned any profit. Next, derivative patents does not stop any one to used the old patents. derivative patents - usually do not add any much useful volume to old patent. About patent trail -- use core of old patent and you will be ok. patent trail -only open when one can see how to collect money. can you collect money from small shop? One can patent only novel idea and not simple design. The earliest 3D printing patents are, indeed, beginning to expire, so I expect to see a bunch of interesting developments in the DIY field. However, the fact that older patents expire does not mean that the companies haven't been busy filing derivative patents with similar claims. Following the patent trail up to the present time can provide hours of mingled admiration and horror ... [grin] -- Ed http://softsolder.com -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Rapid Prototype for CNC mill
On Jul 25, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Ed Nisley wrote: All those patent that you refer are too old and antiquated. The earliest 3D printing patents are, indeed, beginning to expire, so I expect to see a bunch of interesting developments in the DIY field. Hi Ed, I am just curious, like what for instance? Cheers, Jeshua Lacock Founder/Engineer 3DTOPO Incorporated http://3DTOPO.com Phone: 208.462.4171 -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
