Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users]

Use green sand, not dry sand. 
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lost+pla+casting+green+sand 

On Tuesday, June 15, 2021, 10:27:15 AM MDT, John Dammeyer 
 wrote:  
 
 Hi Greg
I've tried the lost foam method in dry sand.  Outside.  Can't stand the smell 
of the sand afterwards. 

Although PLA smell isn't that bad I've seen the castings produced by lost 3D 
printed lost PLA.  They are ugly just as 3D printed parts are actually quite 
ugly too.    If the goal is just to make something to cast with no care about 
surface finish I can see it.  And if the casting fails put the foundry away for 
another 24 hours or more of re-printing the next trial.

For me, making a nice pattern is part of the fun of casting.  Getting a smooth 
surface finish too.

Now having said that if I were to design something that would require a complex 
shape that cannot be easily turned into a multi-part pattern I might just try 
lost PLA for it.  

John

> -Original Message-
> From: Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users [mailto:emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net]
> Sent: June-15-21 2:30 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Cc: Gregg Eshelman
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control
> 
> Print in PLA with only one perimeter and as little infill as you can get by 
> with, print all the sprues and vents as one part with the
> pattern too. Then all you have to do is pack the print tightly in sand then 
> pour in the molten metal to burn out the plastic. Look up
> lost PLA casting. With really fine sand you can make metal castings that look 
> like they were made on an FDM printer.
> 
> I really need to get my 3D printer working again so I can print the parts to 
> CNC my old Unimat lathe.
> 
>    On Monday, June 14, 2021, 9:04:42 PM MDT, John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
>  Thank you for posting that.�
> So in the places where I'd make a pattern and cast from scrap aluminium you 
> 3D print the part.
> Very nicely done!
> John  
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[andy pugh]

On Wed, 16 Jun 2021 at 00:54, John Dammeyer  wrote:

> What about for power tapping then.  Is there even a need for an encoder or 
> does it still require that index pulse and spindle feedback?

In theory you can power-tap with a stepper spindle and no encoder. In
practice it is likely to be a lot easier and more reliable with an
encoder.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[John Dammeyer]

I believe this doc explains the spindle encoder feedback.
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/examples_spindle.html
John


> -Original Message-
> From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
> Sent: June-15-21 4:52 PM
> To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control
> 
> > From: Peter C. Wallace [mailto:p...@mesanet.com]
> > On Tue, 15 Jun 2021, John Dammeyer wrote:
> >
> > > Kind of cool to do an M3 S10 and see the what would be the spindle 
> > > turning at
> > > 10 RPM with STEP/DIR control.  (all on my test bench with a smaller motor 
> > > at
> > > the moment and Pi4/7i92H instead of PC/7i92H.
> > >
> > > Been working on that all afternoon.  Moved controllers around.  Moved 
> > > motors.
> > > Nothing.  And yet the motor worked fine on the machine and under the Pi4 
> > > and
> > > 7i92 also ran correctly with PWM/DIR.  But not STEP/DIR.  Didn't seem to
> > > matter what parameters I changed in the servo motor.  I'd switch back and
> > > forth between the two different .BIT files in the 7i92H.
> > >
> > > I took a step backward and started cloning the Z axis parameters into the
> > > spindle parameter in the INI file.  The P parameter was 0.0 Once I set it 
> > > to
> > > 1000.0 spindle stepping worked.  Which makes sense.  No Proportional 
> > > Gain, no
> > > velocity.
> > >
> > > MAX_VELOCITY = 50.0
> > > MAX_ACCELERATION = 300.0
> > > P = 1000.0
> > > I = 0.0
> > > D = 0.0
> > > FF0 = 1.0
> > > FF1 = 0.0
> > > FF2 = 0.0
> > > BIAS = 0.0
> > > DEADBAND = 0.0
> > > MAX_OUTPUT = 3000.0
> > >
> > > So when controlling an intelligent AC Servo Drive what is an ideal value 
> > > for
> > > P?  It's open loop at the moment, until I add an encoder to the spindle.
> > > Anything else required to make open loop reliable?  Once there's an 
> > > encoder on
> > > the spindle how much tuning is needed given that it's step/dir and not PWM
> > > with encoder feedback?
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > John
> > >
> >
> > If you are outputing a velocity command (either a stepgen rate or a PWM
> > value), P=0 should be fine, because FF0=1 meaning the PID output that 
> > drives the
> > stepgen or PWMgen will equal the input command. Basically the PID compoment 
> > is
> > just passing the commanded spindle RPM to its output so when P=0 (and I=0) 
> > you
> > are running open loop, but it should work in this configuration. If you are
> > using a stepgen, there should be no need for P (or PID) at all, since the 
> > stegen
> > rate accuracy will be better than .01% or so.
> > Peter Wallace
> > Mesa Electronics
> 
> Ah.  The problem was with the FF0=1.0 then.
> Setting FF0=0 and P=0 makes it work.
> 
> What about for power tapping then.  Is there even a need for an encoder or 
> does it still require that index pulse and spindle
> feedback?
> 
> I suspect yes because there is no guarantee that my pulleys are precisely the 
> same diameter so what the motor thinks and what the
> spindle is doing may be out just a hair.  And if I do change to the alternate 
> step down pulleys to increase torque then the spindle
> won't be doing motor speed.
> 
> Is the loop closed then with the system asking for say 200 RPM and the 
> spindle reporting 207RPM, through the encoder inputs
> QCount0?  Ie the stepgen will be told to reduce RPM until the target 200 on 
> the spindle is reached?
> 
> And although the motor has been configured for 5000 pulses per rev the 
> encoder might only have 200 lines for 800 PPR.
> 
> I should have an encoder wired to this test bench motor in the next day or so 
> I can try this out.
> Thanks
> John
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[John Dammeyer]

> From: Peter C. Wallace [mailto:p...@mesanet.com]
> On Tue, 15 Jun 2021, John Dammeyer wrote:
> 
> > Kind of cool to do an M3 S10 and see the what would be the spindle turning 
> > at
> > 10 RPM with STEP/DIR control.  (all on my test bench with a smaller motor at
> > the moment and Pi4/7i92H instead of PC/7i92H.
> >
> > Been working on that all afternoon.  Moved controllers around.  Moved 
> > motors.
> > Nothing.  And yet the motor worked fine on the machine and under the Pi4 and
> > 7i92 also ran correctly with PWM/DIR.  But not STEP/DIR.  Didn't seem to
> > matter what parameters I changed in the servo motor.  I'd switch back and
> > forth between the two different .BIT files in the 7i92H.
> >
> > I took a step backward and started cloning the Z axis parameters into the
> > spindle parameter in the INI file.  The P parameter was 0.0 Once I set it to
> > 1000.0 spindle stepping worked.  Which makes sense.  No Proportional Gain, 
> > no
> > velocity.
> >
> > MAX_VELOCITY = 50.0
> > MAX_ACCELERATION = 300.0
> > P = 1000.0
> > I = 0.0
> > D = 0.0
> > FF0 = 1.0
> > FF1 = 0.0
> > FF2 = 0.0
> > BIAS = 0.0
> > DEADBAND = 0.0
> > MAX_OUTPUT = 3000.0
> >
> > So when controlling an intelligent AC Servo Drive what is an ideal value for
> > P?  It's open loop at the moment, until I add an encoder to the spindle.
> > Anything else required to make open loop reliable?  Once there's an encoder 
> > on
> > the spindle how much tuning is needed given that it's step/dir and not PWM
> > with encoder feedback?
> >
> > Thanks
> > John
> >
> 
> If you are outputing a velocity command (either a stepgen rate or a PWM
> value), P=0 should be fine, because FF0=1 meaning the PID output that drives 
> the
> stepgen or PWMgen will equal the input command. Basically the PID compoment is
> just passing the commanded spindle RPM to its output so when P=0 (and I=0) you
> are running open loop, but it should work in this configuration. If you are
> using a stepgen, there should be no need for P (or PID) at all, since the 
> stegen
> rate accuracy will be better than .01% or so.
> Peter Wallace
> Mesa Electronics

Ah.  The problem was with the FF0=1.0 then.
Setting FF0=0 and P=0 makes it work.  

What about for power tapping then.  Is there even a need for an encoder or does 
it still require that index pulse and spindle feedback?  

I suspect yes because there is no guarantee that my pulleys are precisely the 
same diameter so what the motor thinks and what the spindle is doing may be out 
just a hair.  And if I do change to the alternate step down pulleys to increase 
torque then the spindle won't be doing motor speed.

Is the loop closed then with the system asking for say 200 RPM and the spindle 
reporting 207RPM, through the encoder inputs QCount0?  Ie the stepgen will be 
told to reduce RPM until the target 200 on the spindle is reached?

And although the motor has been configured for 5000 pulses per rev the encoder 
might only have 200 lines for 800 PPR.

I should have an encoder wired to this test bench motor in the next day or so I 
can try this out.
Thanks
John




___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2021, John Dammeyer wrote:


Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 16:14:00 -0700
From: John Dammeyer 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'" 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

Kind of cool to do an M3 S10 and see the what would be the spindle turning at 
10 RPM with STEP/DIR control.  (all on my test bench with a smaller motor at 
the moment and Pi4/7i92H instead of PC/7i92H.


Been working on that all afternoon.  Moved controllers around.  Moved motors. 
Nothing.  And yet the motor worked fine on the machine and under the Pi4 and 
7i92 also ran correctly with PWM/DIR.  But not STEP/DIR.  Didn't seem to 
matter what parameters I changed in the servo motor.  I'd switch back and 
forth between the two different .BIT files in the 7i92H.


I took a step backward and started cloning the Z axis parameters into the 
spindle parameter in the INI file.  The P parameter was 0.0 Once I set it to 
1000.0 spindle stepping worked.  Which makes sense.  No Proportional Gain, no 
velocity.


MAX_VELOCITY = 50.0
MAX_ACCELERATION = 300.0
P = 1000.0
I = 0.0
D = 0.0
FF0 = 1.0
FF1 = 0.0
FF2 = 0.0
BIAS = 0.0
DEADBAND = 0.0
MAX_OUTPUT = 3000.0

So when controlling an intelligent AC Servo Drive what is an ideal value for 
P?  It's open loop at the moment, until I add an encoder to the spindle. 
Anything else required to make open loop reliable?  Once there's an encoder on 
the spindle how much tuning is needed given that it's step/dir and not PWM 
with encoder feedback?


Thanks
John



If you are outputing a velocity command (either a stepgen rate or a PWM 
value), P=0 should be fine, because FF0=1 meaning the PID output that drives the 
stepgen or PWMgen will equal the input command. Basically the PID compoment is 
just passing the commanded spindle RPM to its output so when P=0 (and I=0) you 
are running open loop, but it should work in this configuration. If you are 
using a stepgen, there should be no need for P (or PID) at all, since the stegen 
rate accuracy will be better than .01% or so.







___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.



___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[John Dammeyer]

Kind of cool to do an M3 S10 and see the what would be the spindle turning at 
10 RPM with STEP/DIR control.  (all on my test bench with a smaller motor at 
the moment and Pi4/7i92H instead of PC/7i92H. 

Been working on that all afternoon.  Moved controllers around.  Moved motors.  
Nothing.  And yet the motor worked fine on the machine and under the Pi4 and 
7i92 also ran correctly with PWM/DIR.  But not STEP/DIR.  Didn't seem to matter 
what parameters I changed in the servo motor.  I'd switch back and forth 
between the two different .BIT files in the 7i92H.

I took a step backward and started cloning the Z axis parameters into the 
spindle parameter in the INI file.   The P parameter was 0.0  Once I set it to 
1000.0 spindle stepping worked.  Which makes sense.  No Proportional Gain, no 
velocity.

MAX_VELOCITY = 50.0
MAX_ACCELERATION = 300.0
P = 1000.0
I = 0.0
D = 0.0
FF0 = 1.0
FF1 = 0.0
FF2 = 0.0
BIAS = 0.0
DEADBAND = 0.0
MAX_OUTPUT = 3000.0

So when controlling an intelligent AC Servo Drive what is an ideal value for P? 
 It's open loop at the moment, until I add an encoder to the spindle.  Anything 
else required to make open loop reliable?  Once there's an encoder on the 
spindle how much tuning is needed given that it's step/dir and not PWM with 
encoder feedback?

Thanks
John




___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[johnd]

I don't disagree that for complex parts like your example 3D printing is an 
amazing way to do this. I'll bet though if you went out to buy say a drill 
press and had a choice between one that had been cast with ugly rough 3D 
printed castings and one that had smooth pattern created castings you'd choose 
the nicer one?John. Sent from my Samsung S10
 Original message From: Chris Albertson 
 Date: 2021-06-15  11:24 a.m.  (GMT-08:00) To: 
"Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"  Subject: 
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 9:41 AM John Dammeyer 
wrote:> Before the extruded plastic 3D printing that 
was the type of 3D printer I> was considering.  The hobby approach was to use 
ink jet nozzles for> printing a crazy glue type material onto starch layers.>> 
Material costs would not be cheap.  Then came pla printing and I've not> looked 
back.  I've printed a number of PLA patterns but they always get the> 
woodworking treatment so they are never lost-pla.>> John>>> > -Original 
Message-> > From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]> > Sent: June-15-21 
7:26 AM> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] 
Spindle Control> >> > On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 15:21, Roland Jollivet 
> wrote:> >> > > Which often makes me wonder why 
guys aren't CNC machining the moulds> rather.> > > You'd have a simple CNC mill 
where the tool sticks directly upwards,> and> > > use a dremel as a spindle.> > 
> Now you just 'machine' away the green sand until done.>Why would you CNC a 
mould when you could print one?  The printer does notwaste material and it is 
very fast because there is no machining required.  But more importently some 
moulds can not be CNC machined or rather youmight be forced to re-design you 
part based on the limitations of the CNCmachne.    For example JUST TRY to CNC 
a mold for this part.    It is areal part I made for a power steering unit for 
robot car.  I doubt it couldbe CNC machined.  But it could be 3D printed and 
cast in metal.  (This isthe main chassis that holds the motor, gears and some 
electronics.  In usethere are covers to keep water and dirt out.  Butthis 
inside is designedfor minium use of materials and is not buildable with CNC,  
Look at thebrown part, I forget to remove some other parts.)[image: 
Untitled.jpeg.jpeg]> >> >> > We have a couple of these at work: 
https://youtu.be/s6OJx_PKoTk> >> > --> > atp> > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with 
a pandemonium attachment and is> > designed for the especial use of mechanical 
geniuses, daredevils and> > lunatics."> > � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution 
Newspaper, 1912> >> >> > ___> > 
Emc-users mailing list> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> > 
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users>>>> 
___> Emc-users mailing list> 
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> 
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users>-- Chris 
AlbertsonRedondo Beach, 
California___Emc-users mailing 
listEmc-users@lists.sourceforge.nethttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[Chris Albertson]

On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 9:41 AM John Dammeyer 
wrote:

> Before the extruded plastic 3D printing that was the type of 3D printer I
> was considering.  The hobby approach was to use ink jet nozzles for
> printing a crazy glue type material onto starch layers.
>
> Material costs would not be cheap.  Then came pla printing and I've not
> looked back.  I've printed a number of PLA patterns but they always get the
> woodworking treatment so they are never lost-pla.
>
> John
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: June-15-21 7:26 AM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control
> >
> > On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 15:21, Roland Jollivet 
> wrote:
> >
> > > Which often makes me wonder why guys aren't CNC machining the moulds
> rather.
> > > You'd have a simple CNC mill where the tool sticks directly upwards,
> and
> > > use a dremel as a spindle.
> > > Now you just 'machine' away the green sand until done.
>

Why would you CNC a mould when you could print one?  The printer does not
waste material and it is very fast because there is no machining required.
  But more importently some moulds can not be CNC machined or rather you
might be forced to re-design you part based on the limitations of the CNC
machne.For example JUST TRY to CNC a mold for this part.It is a
real part I made for a power steering unit for robot car.  I doubt it could
be CNC machined.  But it could be 3D printed and cast in metal.  (This is
the main chassis that holds the motor, gears and some electronics.  In use
there are covers to keep water and dirt out.  Butthis inside is designed
for minium use of materials and is not buildable with CNC,  Look at the
brown part, I forget to remove some other parts.)
[image: Untitled.jpeg.jpeg]



> >
> >
> > We have a couple of these at work: https://youtu.be/s6OJx_PKoTk
> >
> > --
> > atp
> > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > lunatics."
> > � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[John Dammeyer]

I have a Hohman Designs Step to Voltage module that does that.   It uses 0 to 
25Khz for 0 to 10V.  I couldn't use that with my ELS project because max step 
rate for that was 20kHz.  But it would work with the Linux Installation instead 
of the cheapy 0-10V 1kHz PWM converter.  I doubt the Bergerda AC Servo would 
care though.

John

> -Original Message-
> From: Leonardo Marsaglia [mailto:ldmarsag...@gmail.com]
> Sent: June-15-21 10:41 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control
> 
> Forgot to say. The speed reference for the VFD is a pulsed signal. So
> basically I'm feeding a step generator to the VFD for that. I just had to
> play a little bit with step length and space to adjust the duty cycle and
> get it working right.
> 
> Leonardo Marsaglia
> 
> El mar., 15 jun. 2021 14:38, Leonardo Marsaglia 
> escribi�:
> 
> > 1- Lathe with 3 phase input/ 3 phase output  VFD
> >
> > 2- LCNC has complete control over the vfd. But I also have override,
> > direction and on/off buttons on the main panel.
> >
> > Leonardo Marsaglia
> >
> > El dom., 13 jun. 2021 16:52, John Dammeyer 
> > escribi�:
> >
> >> Quick little survey on what everyone has on their machine for spindle
> >> control.
> >>
> >> 1. Do you have a VFD on a 3 phase motor for Lathe or Mill.
> >>
> >> 2. Does the CNC controller drive the spindle or do you set the speed and
> >> ON/OFF manually?
> >>
> >> Just curious
> >> John
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "ELS! Nothing else works as well for your Lathe"
> >> Automation Artisans Inc.
> >> www dot autoartisans dot com
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >>
> >
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

Forgot to say. The speed reference for the VFD is a pulsed signal. So
basically I'm feeding a step generator to the VFD for that. I just had to
play a little bit with step length and space to adjust the duty cycle and
get it working right.

Leonardo Marsaglia

El mar., 15 jun. 2021 14:38, Leonardo Marsaglia 
escribió:

> 1- Lathe with 3 phase input/ 3 phase output  VFD
>
> 2- LCNC has complete control over the vfd. But I also have override,
> direction and on/off buttons on the main panel.
>
> Leonardo Marsaglia
>
> El dom., 13 jun. 2021 16:52, John Dammeyer 
> escribió:
>
>> Quick little survey on what everyone has on their machine for spindle
>> control.
>>
>> 1. Do you have a VFD on a 3 phase motor for Lathe or Mill.
>>
>> 2. Does the CNC controller drive the spindle or do you set the speed and
>> ON/OFF manually?
>>
>> Just curious
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> "ELS! Nothing else works as well for your Lathe"
>> Automation Artisans Inc.
>> www dot autoartisans dot com
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Emc-users mailing list
>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>
>

___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

1- Lathe with 3 phase input/ 3 phase output  VFD

2- LCNC has complete control over the vfd. But I also have override,
direction and on/off buttons on the main panel.

Leonardo Marsaglia

El dom., 13 jun. 2021 16:52, John Dammeyer 
escribió:

> Quick little survey on what everyone has on their machine for spindle
> control.
>
> 1. Do you have a VFD on a 3 phase motor for Lathe or Mill.
>
> 2. Does the CNC controller drive the spindle or do you set the speed and
> ON/OFF manually?
>
> Just curious
> John
>
>
>
> "ELS! Nothing else works as well for your Lathe"
> Automation Artisans Inc.
> www dot autoartisans dot com
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>

___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 17:27, John Dammeyer  wrote:

> Of course since I am also my foundry I'd have to pay attention to the colour 
> in the first place.  I take it the "to be machined" surfaces can have the 
> gates and runners attached while as-cast should be left as is?

I think it is actually so that the foundryman can place those areas in
the zones most likely to get good filling and low porosity.
(Which might well be near the gate?)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[John Dammeyer]

Oops.  Forgot the link.
http://www.autoartisans.com/cnc/Casting.jpg

> -Original Message-
> From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
> Sent: June-15-21 9:24 AM
> To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control
> 
> > From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 05:56, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> >
> > > And even nicer all painted up.
> > > http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/HarmonicDrive/PatternPrep-3.jpg
> >
> > It's the wrong colour!
> > https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/Legacy/CS/cs19-32.pdf
> > In the US it is black for as-cast surfaces and red for "to be machined"
> >
> > I am in the UK so paint my patterns red for as-cast and yellow for "to
> > be machined", according to BS467:1932
> 
> Of course since I am also my foundry I'd have to pay attention to the colour 
> in the first place.  I take it the "to be machined" surfaces
> can have the gates and runners attached while as-cast should be left as is?
> 
> >
> > But, in an odd coincidence, my own rotary axis pattern turned out
> > green as that was the colour of the Renshape I had.
> > https://photos.app.goo.gl/UwnouPFGRSfwfwDTA
> 
> Here I thought I was following a good role model and it turns out he wasn't 
> following standards.  Oh the tragedy of it all.  I'm so
> disappointed.  What will I do?Now I'll have to grab all the castings that 
> are for the mill conversion and repaint them.  The mill ones
> will be easy to find in the boxes.  Those are the green ones.   Gingery Lathe 
> are clear wood and Blue.  CNC router are orange.
> 
> Sometimes I even pour two projects at the same time.  Router Clamp and Knee 
> Bearing holder.
> 
> John
> >
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[John Dammeyer]

Before the extruded plastic 3D printing that was the type of 3D printer I was 
considering.  The hobby approach was to use ink jet nozzles for printing a 
crazy glue type material onto starch layers.

Material costs would not be cheap.  Then came pla printing and I've not looked 
back.  I've printed a number of PLA patterns but they always get the 
woodworking treatment so they are never lost-pla.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> Sent: June-15-21 7:26 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control
> 
> On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 15:21, Roland Jollivet  
> wrote:
> 
> > Which often makes me wonder why guys aren't CNC machining the moulds rather.
> > You'd have a simple CNC mill where the tool sticks directly upwards, and
> > use a dremel as a spindle.
> > Now you just 'machine' away the green sand until done.
> 
> 
> We have a couple of these at work: https://youtu.be/s6OJx_PKoTk
> 
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> 
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[John Dammeyer]

> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 05:56, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> 
> > And even nicer all painted up.
> > http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/HarmonicDrive/PatternPrep-3.jpg
> 
> It's the wrong colour!
> https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/Legacy/CS/cs19-32.pdf
> In the US it is black for as-cast surfaces and red for "to be machined"
> 
> I am in the UK so paint my patterns red for as-cast and yellow for "to
> be machined", according to BS467:1932

Of course since I am also my foundry I'd have to pay attention to the colour in 
the first place.  I take it the "to be machined" surfaces can have the gates 
and runners attached while as-cast should be left as is?

> 
> But, in an odd coincidence, my own rotary axis pattern turned out
> green as that was the colour of the Renshape I had.
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/UwnouPFGRSfwfwDTA

Here I thought I was following a good role model and it turns out he wasn't 
following standards.  Oh the tragedy of it all.  I'm so disappointed.  What 
will I do?Now I'll have to grab all the castings that are for the mill 
conversion and repaint them.  The mill ones will be easy to find in the boxes.  
Those are the green ones.   Gingery Lathe are clear wood and Blue.  CNC router 
are orange.

Sometimes I even pour two projects at the same time.  Router Clamp and Knee 
Bearing holder.

John
> 



___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[John Dammeyer]

Hi Greg
I've tried the lost foam method in dry sand.  Outside.  Can't stand the smell 
of the sand afterwards. 

Although PLA smell isn't that bad I've seen the castings produced by lost 3D 
printed lost PLA.  They are ugly just as 3D printed parts are actually quite 
ugly too.If the goal is just to make something to cast with no care about 
surface finish I can see it.  And if the casting fails put the foundry away for 
another 24 hours or more of re-printing the next trial.

For me, making a nice pattern is part of the fun of casting.  Getting a smooth 
surface finish too.

Now having said that if I were to design something that would require a complex 
shape that cannot be easily turned into a multi-part pattern I might just try 
lost PLA for it.  

John

> -Original Message-
> From: Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users [mailto:emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net]
> Sent: June-15-21 2:30 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Cc: Gregg Eshelman
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control
> 
> Print in PLA with only one perimeter and as little infill as you can get by 
> with, print all the sprues and vents as one part with the
> pattern too. Then all you have to do is pack the print tightly in sand then 
> pour in the molten metal to burn out the plastic. Look up
> lost PLA casting. With really fine sand you can make metal castings that look 
> like they were made on an FDM printer.
> 
> I really need to get my 3D printer working again so I can print the parts to 
> CNC my old Unimat lathe.
> 
> On Monday, June 14, 2021, 9:04:42 PM MDT, John Dammeyer 
>  wrote:
>  Thank you for posting that.�
> So in the places where I'd make a pattern and cast from scrap aluminium you 
> 3D print the part.
> Very nicely done!
> John
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 15:21, Roland Jollivet  wrote:

> Which often makes me wonder why guys aren't CNC machining the moulds rather.
> You'd have a simple CNC mill where the tool sticks directly upwards, and
> use a dremel as a spindle.
> Now you just 'machine' away the green sand until done.


We have a couple of these at work: https://youtu.be/s6OJx_PKoTk

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

[Emc-users] Spindle Control

[Roland Jollivet]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 11:55, andy pugh  wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 10:33, Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users
>  wrote:
> >
> > Look up lost PLA casting.
>
> Though the drawback with that is that you only get one shot at it.
>

Which often makes me wonder why guys aren't CNC machining the moulds rather.
You'd have a simple CNC mill where the tool sticks directly upwards, and
use a dremel as a spindle.
Now you just 'machine' away the green sand until done.

You machine the cope and the drag in a similar way, including registration
features.

Roland

___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[Feral Engineer]

Lathe has vfd, router is running a  superpid with a Hitachi m12vc, mill is
using a servo motor

I manually turned my Hitachi router on and off until the pandemic hit, then
I started by adding a relay to control it, which then became my obsession
with industrial electronics 

Phil T.
The Feral Engineer

Check out my LinuxCNC tutorials, machine builds and other antics at
www.youtube.com/c/theferalengineer

Help support my channel efforts and coffee addiction:
www.patreon.com/theferalengineer

On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 3:52 PM John Dammeyer  wrote:

> Quick little survey on what everyone has on their machine for spindle
> control.
>
> 1. Do you have a VFD on a 3 phase motor for Lathe or Mill.
>
> 2. Does the CNC controller drive the spindle or do you set the speed and
> ON/OFF manually?
>
> Just curious
> John
>
>
>
> "ELS! Nothing else works as well for your Lathe"
> Automation Artisans Inc.
> www dot autoartisans dot com
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>

___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 10:33, Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users
 wrote:
>
> Look up lost PLA casting.

Though the drawback with that is that you only get one shot at it.

I have been tending to print conventional patterns. Things like
supports and core boxes become really easy with 3D CAD and 3D
printing.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users]

Print in PLA with only one perimeter and as little infill as you can get by 
with, print all the sprues and vents as one part with the pattern too. Then all 
you have to do is pack the print tightly in sand then pour in the molten metal 
to burn out the plastic. Look up lost PLA casting. With really fine sand you 
can make metal castings that look like they were made on an FDM printer.

I really need to get my 3D printer working again so I can print the parts to 
CNC my old Unimat lathe.

On Monday, June 14, 2021, 9:04:42 PM MDT, John Dammeyer 
 wrote:  
 Thank you for posting that.  
So in the places where I'd make a pattern and cast from scrap aluminium you 3D 
print the part.
Very nicely done!
John  
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 05:56, John Dammeyer  wrote:

> And even nicer all painted up.
> http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/HarmonicDrive/PatternPrep-3.jpg

It's the wrong colour!
https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/Legacy/CS/cs19-32.pdf
In the US it is black for as-cast surfaces and red for "to be machined"

I am in the UK so paint my patterns red for as-cast and yellow for "to
be machined", according to BS467:1932

But, in an odd coincidence, my own rotary axis pattern turned out
green as that was the colour of the Renshape I had.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/UwnouPFGRSfwfwDTA



--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[John Dammeyer]

Hi Chris,
At the moment my harmonic drive 4th axis is still sitting in this 4 part 3D 
printed prototype. 
http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/HarmonicDrive/FullSize-6.jpg
There have been so many other the go that I just haven't had time to cast it 
however it does move using the STMBL drive.  Need to make a face plate for it 
too.

I printed the pattern in 4 parts and then sanded and added filler.
http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/HarmonicDrive/PatternPrep-1.jpg
Looks nice with primer.
http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/HarmonicDrive/PatternPrep-2.jpg
And even nicer all painted up.
http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/HarmonicDrive/PatternPrep-3.jpg
And fits in one of my larger flasks.
http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/HarmonicDrive/TrialSand.jpg
It pulled out of the sand really easily.
http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/HarmonicDrive/Pulled-1.jpg
Maybe in a month.  I did add some water to the green sand a few weeks back.
http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/HarmonicDrive/Pulled-2.jpg

I had to build a larger crucible for it so at this point the only thing holding 
me back is me.

John



> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: June-14-21 9:37 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control
> 
> Plastic works because it is a "mini" mill.   I would use metal for a larger
> industrial sized machine.   But even if you are making a cast iron part,
> make the pattern on a 3D printer.
> 
> On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 8:04 PM John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> 
> > Thank you for posting that.
> > So in the places where I'd make a pattern and cast from scrap aluminium
> > you 3D print the part.
> > Very nicely done!
> > John
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: June-14-21 7:44 PM
> > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 9:43 AM John Dammeyer 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Have you any photos of the 3D printed motor mounts etc?  Direct drive
> > or
> > > > belt driven?  The 3Nm implies size 23 so I'll guess direct drive.
> > > > John
> > > >
> > >
> > > THis shows X and Y.  https://youtu.be/wupYP2NNsXI?t=33
> > >
> > > This shows the Z axis.  On this machine the nut spins on a non-rotating
> > > ball scew https://youtu.be/tlMTksuOuZQ?t=27
> > > This is a render of some z-axis parts https://a360.co/3zrzIwB
> > >
> > > Note that in the two above videos I am used 3D printed timing belts.  At
> > > first I did this as a joke but they actally work for almost an hour with
> > is
> > > long enough for testing to see if you have the right size belt.It is
> > > just plane old PLA printed 100% solid.  All the timing pulleys are
> > printed
> > > but have steel hubs and steel set screws.
> > >
> > > Here is an interactive 3D model you can look at.  This versionhas some
> > > alignment issues but by using the "eplode" button and slider you can look
> > > at the parts and rotate them to see all sides https://a360.co/2TxOscU
> > >
> > > "Universal PWM spindle speed control device"  (don't laugh, it works.)
> > > https://a360.co/2N95AiL
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -Original Message-
> > > > > From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> > > > > Sent: June-14-21 8:41 AM
> > > > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, I thought about reverse engineering the spindle motor
> > controller and
> > > > > fitting it with a conector for external PWM input but my goal with
> > this
> > > > CNC
> > > > > conversion was to try and do the lowest cost and easiest possible
> > > > > conversion and document it.  So at every decision point I take the
> > > > simplest
> > > > > route that costs the least and most importantly, they anyone reading
> > my
> > > > > instructions could follow.   As soon as I suggest modifying a
> > controller
> > > > > board, I've lost 90% of the machinists who might be following my
> > > > > instructions.
> > > > >
> > > > > To that end I've 3D printed almost all the parts needed for CNC
> > > > conversion.
> > > > >People usuall

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[Chris Albertson]

Plastic works because it is a "mini" mill.   I would use metal for a larger
industrial sized machine.   But even if you are making a cast iron part,
make the pattern on a 3D printer.

On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 8:04 PM John Dammeyer 
wrote:

> Thank you for posting that.
> So in the places where I'd make a pattern and cast from scrap aluminium
> you 3D print the part.
> Very nicely done!
> John
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: June-14-21 7:44 PM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 9:43 AM John Dammeyer 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Have you any photos of the 3D printed motor mounts etc?  Direct drive
> or
> > > belt driven?  The 3Nm implies size 23 so I'll guess direct drive.
> > > John
> > >
> >
> > THis shows X and Y.  https://youtu.be/wupYP2NNsXI?t=33
> >
> > This shows the Z axis.  On this machine the nut spins on a non-rotating
> > ball scew https://youtu.be/tlMTksuOuZQ?t=27
> > This is a render of some z-axis parts https://a360.co/3zrzIwB
> >
> > Note that in the two above videos I am used 3D printed timing belts.  At
> > first I did this as a joke but they actally work for almost an hour with
> is
> > long enough for testing to see if you have the right size belt.It is
> > just plane old PLA printed 100% solid.  All the timing pulleys are
> printed
> > but have steel hubs and steel set screws.
> >
> > Here is an interactive 3D model you can look at.  This versionhas some
> > alignment issues but by using the "eplode" button and slider you can look
> > at the parts and rotate them to see all sides https://a360.co/2TxOscU
> >
> > "Universal PWM spindle speed control device"  (don't laugh, it works.)
> > https://a360.co/2N95AiL
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> > > > Sent: June-14-21 8:41 AM
> > > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control
> > > >
> > > > Yes, I thought about reverse engineering the spindle motor
> controller and
> > > > fitting it with a conector for external PWM input but my goal with
> this
> > > CNC
> > > > conversion was to try and do the lowest cost and easiest possible
> > > > conversion and document it.  So at every decision point I take the
> > > simplest
> > > > route that costs the least and most importantly, they anyone reading
> my
> > > > instructions could follow.   As soon as I suggest modifying a
> controller
> > > > board, I've lost 90% of the machinists who might be following my
> > > > instructions.
> > > >
> > > > To that end I've 3D printed almost all the parts needed for CNC
> > > conversion.
> > > >People usually use metal but the stepper motors I use only only
> > > produce
> > > > less them 3 Newton meters of torque.  The the maxim force the motor
> > > mounts
> > > > will ever see is 3 Newton meters.  I don't need cast iron for that,
> > > plastic
> > > > works.   My goal is to do the complete conversion including motors
> and a
> > > > ball screw all for under $400 with an assembly time of no more then
> one
> > > day
> > > > of work, not counting the time needed to print the parts.   I looks
> like
> > > > I'll meet these goals.
> > > >
> > > > I use a dial indictor to measure deflection under load of the plastic
> > > parts
> > > > and there is one part on they-axis that needs to be redesigned into
> the
> > > > more organic-looking shape with compound curves.  I find this is the
> > > > "secret" for making strong 3D printed parts, It is the same reason
> car
> > > > fenders don't bend, even though that are made with thin sheet
> metal,  It
> > > is
> > > > the compound shape.  Printed parts are like that, they are made of a
> > > thinn
> > > > skin of solid plastic over a light foam-like core and all the
> strength is
> > > > in the skin.  Flat slabs of printed plastic are not very strong or
> > > ridgid.
> > > >
> > > > I does not impress me much that someone can build a CNC milling
> machine
> > > for
> > > > $10,000 and 6 months

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[John Dammeyer]

Thank you for posting that.  
So in the places where I'd make a pattern and cast from scrap aluminium you 3D 
print the part.
Very nicely done!
John

> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: June-14-21 7:44 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control
> 
> On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 9:43 AM John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> 
> > Have you any photos of the 3D printed motor mounts etc?  Direct drive or
> > belt driven?  The 3Nm implies size 23 so I'll guess direct drive.
> > John
> >
> 
> THis shows X and Y.  https://youtu.be/wupYP2NNsXI?t=33
> 
> This shows the Z axis.  On this machine the nut spins on a non-rotating
> ball scew https://youtu.be/tlMTksuOuZQ?t=27
> This is a render of some z-axis parts https://a360.co/3zrzIwB
> 
> Note that in the two above videos I am used 3D printed timing belts.  At
> first I did this as a joke but they actally work for almost an hour with is
> long enough for testing to see if you have the right size belt.It is
> just plane old PLA printed 100% solid.  All the timing pulleys are printed
> but have steel hubs and steel set screws.
> 
> Here is an interactive 3D model you can look at.  This versionhas some
> alignment issues but by using the "eplode" button and slider you can look
> at the parts and rotate them to see all sides https://a360.co/2TxOscU
> 
> "Universal PWM spindle speed control device"  (don't laugh, it works.)
> https://a360.co/2N95AiL
> 
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: June-14-21 8:41 AM
> > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control
> > >
> > > Yes, I thought about reverse engineering the spindle motor controller and
> > > fitting it with a conector for external PWM input but my goal with this
> > CNC
> > > conversion was to try and do the lowest cost and easiest possible
> > > conversion and document it.  So at every decision point I take the
> > simplest
> > > route that costs the least and most importantly, they anyone reading my
> > > instructions could follow.   As soon as I suggest modifying a controller
> > > board, I've lost 90% of the machinists who might be following my
> > > instructions.
> > >
> > > To that end I've 3D printed almost all the parts needed for CNC
> > conversion.
> > >People usually use metal but the stepper motors I use only only
> > produce
> > > less them 3 Newton meters of torque.  The the maxim force the motor
> > mounts
> > > will ever see is 3 Newton meters.  I don't need cast iron for that,
> > plastic
> > > works.   My goal is to do the complete conversion including motors and a
> > > ball screw all for under $400 with an assembly time of no more then one
> > day
> > > of work, not counting the time needed to print the parts.   I looks like
> > > I'll meet these goals.
> > >
> > > I use a dial indictor to measure deflection under load of the plastic
> > parts
> > > and there is one part on they-axis that needs to be redesigned into the
> > > more organic-looking shape with compound curves.  I find this is the
> > > "secret" for making strong 3D printed parts, It is the same reason car
> > > fenders don't bend, even though that are made with thin sheet metal,  It
> > is
> > > the compound shape.  Printed parts are like that, they are made of a
> > thinn
> > > skin of solid plastic over a light foam-like core and all the strength is
> > > in the skin.  Flat slabs of printed plastic are not very strong or
> > ridgid.
> > >
> > > I does not impress me much that someone can build a CNC milling machine
> > for
> > > $10,000 and 6 months of work.  Anyone can do that.  What I want is "under
> > > $400 and one day".   After about three attemps I'm getting closer to
> > that.
> > > When I get there I'll write it up on the web and publish the design
> > files.
> > >
> > > So, back to my spindle speed controller.  This device will literally
> > > replace the knob on the pot and cost about $6 to make.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 11:09 PM Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users <
> > > emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > How old is that mill? Those Chinese mini mills and lathes have had PWM
> > > > spindle 

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[Chris Albertson]

On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 9:43 AM John Dammeyer 
wrote:

> Have you any photos of the 3D printed motor mounts etc?  Direct drive or
> belt driven?  The 3Nm implies size 23 so I'll guess direct drive.
> John
>

THis shows X and Y.  https://youtu.be/wupYP2NNsXI?t=33

This shows the Z axis.  On this machine the nut spins on a non-rotating
ball scew https://youtu.be/tlMTksuOuZQ?t=27
This is a render of some z-axis parts https://a360.co/3zrzIwB

Note that in the two above videos I am used 3D printed timing belts.  At
first I did this as a joke but they actally work for almost an hour with is
long enough for testing to see if you have the right size belt.It is
just plane old PLA printed 100% solid.  All the timing pulleys are printed
but have steel hubs and steel set screws.

Here is an interactive 3D model you can look at.  This versionhas some
alignment issues but by using the "eplode" button and slider you can look
at the parts and rotate them to see all sides https://a360.co/2TxOscU

"Universal PWM spindle speed control device"  (don't laugh, it works.)
https://a360.co/2N95AiL

>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: June-14-21 8:41 AM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control
> >
> > Yes, I thought about reverse engineering the spindle motor controller and
> > fitting it with a conector for external PWM input but my goal with this
> CNC
> > conversion was to try and do the lowest cost and easiest possible
> > conversion and document it.  So at every decision point I take the
> simplest
> > route that costs the least and most importantly, they anyone reading my
> > instructions could follow.   As soon as I suggest modifying a controller
> > board, I've lost 90% of the machinists who might be following my
> > instructions.
> >
> > To that end I've 3D printed almost all the parts needed for CNC
> conversion.
> >People usually use metal but the stepper motors I use only only
> produce
> > less them 3 Newton meters of torque.  The the maxim force the motor
> mounts
> > will ever see is 3 Newton meters.  I don't need cast iron for that,
> plastic
> > works.   My goal is to do the complete conversion including motors and a
> > ball screw all for under $400 with an assembly time of no more then one
> day
> > of work, not counting the time needed to print the parts.   I looks like
> > I'll meet these goals.
> >
> > I use a dial indictor to measure deflection under load of the plastic
> parts
> > and there is one part on they-axis that needs to be redesigned into the
> > more organic-looking shape with compound curves.  I find this is the
> > "secret" for making strong 3D printed parts, It is the same reason car
> > fenders don't bend, even though that are made with thin sheet metal,  It
> is
> > the compound shape.  Printed parts are like that, they are made of a
> thinn
> > skin of solid plastic over a light foam-like core and all the strength is
> > in the skin.  Flat slabs of printed plastic are not very strong or
> ridgid.
> >
> > I does not impress me much that someone can build a CNC milling machine
> for
> > $10,000 and 6 months of work.  Anyone can do that.  What I want is "under
> > $400 and one day".   After about three attemps I'm getting closer to
> that.
> > When I get there I'll write it up on the web and publish the design
> files.
> >
> > So, back to my spindle speed controller.  This device will literally
> > replace the knob on the pot and cost about $6 to make.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 11:09 PM Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users <
> > emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
> >
> > > How old is that mill? Those Chinese mini mills and lathes have had PWM
> > > spindle motor controllers for many years. I used to have a Grizzly mini
> > > lathe with a low 3 digit serial number, probably from the first batch
> they
> > > imported. I was at least the 3rd owner and I had to fix a lot of
> issues,
> > > both original and from prior owner abuse. One fix was resoldering one
> end
> > > of a big resistor on the primitive and very noisy motor controller.
> > > You can buy a new PWM motor controller and potentiometer to upgrade.
> > >
> http://benchtopmachineshop.blogspot.com/2017/01/mill-speed-controller.html
> > > On Sunday, June 13, 2021, 2:30:15 PM MDT, Chris Albertson <
> > > albertson.ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >  I have a Harbor freight mini mill with the dumbest possible spindl

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[John Dammeyer]

Have you any photos of the 3D printed motor mounts etc?  Direct drive or belt 
driven?  The 3Nm implies size 23 so I'll guess direct drive.
John


> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: June-14-21 8:41 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control
> 
> Yes, I thought about reverse engineering the spindle motor controller and
> fitting it with a conector for external PWM input but my goal with this CNC
> conversion was to try and do the lowest cost and easiest possible
> conversion and document it.  So at every decision point I take the simplest
> route that costs the least and most importantly, they anyone reading my
> instructions could follow.   As soon as I suggest modifying a controller
> board, I've lost 90% of the machinists who might be following my
> instructions.
> 
> To that end I've 3D printed almost all the parts needed for CNC conversion.
>People usually use metal but the stepper motors I use only only produce
> less them 3 Newton meters of torque.  The the maxim force the motor mounts
> will ever see is 3 Newton meters.  I don't need cast iron for that, plastic
> works.   My goal is to do the complete conversion including motors and a
> ball screw all for under $400 with an assembly time of no more then one day
> of work, not counting the time needed to print the parts.   I looks like
> I'll meet these goals.
> 
> I use a dial indictor to measure deflection under load of the plastic parts
> and there is one part on they-axis that needs to be redesigned into the
> more organic-looking shape with compound curves.  I find this is the
> "secret" for making strong 3D printed parts, It is the same reason car
> fenders don't bend, even though that are made with thin sheet metal,  It is
> the compound shape.  Printed parts are like that, they are made of a thinn
> skin of solid plastic over a light foam-like core and all the strength is
> in the skin.  Flat slabs of printed plastic are not very strong or ridgid.
> 
> I does not impress me much that someone can build a CNC milling machine for
> $10,000 and 6 months of work.  Anyone can do that.  What I want is "under
> $400 and one day".   After about three attemps I'm getting closer to that.
> When I get there I'll write it up on the web and publish the design files.
> 
> So, back to my spindle speed controller.  This device will literally
> replace the knob on the pot and cost about $6 to make.
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 11:09 PM Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users <
> emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
> 
> > How old is that mill? Those Chinese mini mills and lathes have had PWM
> > spindle motor controllers for many years. I used to have a Grizzly mini
> > lathe with a low 3 digit serial number, probably from the first batch they
> > imported. I was at least the 3rd owner and I had to fix a lot of issues,
> > both original and from prior owner abuse. One fix was resoldering one end
> > of a big resistor on the primitive and very noisy motor controller.
> > You can buy a new PWM motor controller and potentiometer to upgrade.
> > http://benchtopmachineshop.blogspot.com/2017/01/mill-speed-controller.html
> > On Sunday, June 13, 2021, 2:30:15 PM MDT, Chris Albertson <
> > albertson.ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >  I have a Harbor freight mini mill with the dumbest possible spindle
> > control.  The mill comes from the factory with a variable resistor to
> > control speed.  My idea was to connect a variable resistor to a $5 model
> > airplane servo.  So the PWM output from LinuxCNC drives the servo and the
> > servo turns the pot which controls the spindle motor.  I would never be
> > able to do rigid tapping with this setup.
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[Chris Albertson]

Yes, I thought about reverse engineering the spindle motor controller and
fitting it with a conector for external PWM input but my goal with this CNC
conversion was to try and do the lowest cost and easiest possible
conversion and document it.  So at every decision point I take the simplest
route that costs the least and most importantly, they anyone reading my
instructions could follow.   As soon as I suggest modifying a controller
board, I've lost 90% of the machinists who might be following my
instructions.

To that end I've 3D printed almost all the parts needed for CNC conversion.
   People usually use metal but the stepper motors I use only only produce
less them 3 Newton meters of torque.  The the maxim force the motor mounts
will ever see is 3 Newton meters.  I don't need cast iron for that, plastic
works.   My goal is to do the complete conversion including motors and a
ball screw all for under $400 with an assembly time of no more then one day
of work, not counting the time needed to print the parts.   I looks like
I'll meet these goals.

I use a dial indictor to measure deflection under load of the plastic parts
and there is one part on they-axis that needs to be redesigned into the
more organic-looking shape with compound curves.  I find this is the
"secret" for making strong 3D printed parts, It is the same reason car
fenders don't bend, even though that are made with thin sheet metal,  It is
the compound shape.  Printed parts are like that, they are made of a thinn
skin of solid plastic over a light foam-like core and all the strength is
in the skin.  Flat slabs of printed plastic are not very strong or ridgid.

I does not impress me much that someone can build a CNC milling machine for
$10,000 and 6 months of work.  Anyone can do that.  What I want is "under
$400 and one day".   After about three attemps I'm getting closer to that.
When I get there I'll write it up on the web and publish the design files.

So, back to my spindle speed controller.  This device will literally
replace the knob on the pot and cost about $6 to make.



On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 11:09 PM Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users <
emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

> How old is that mill? Those Chinese mini mills and lathes have had PWM
> spindle motor controllers for many years. I used to have a Grizzly mini
> lathe with a low 3 digit serial number, probably from the first batch they
> imported. I was at least the 3rd owner and I had to fix a lot of issues,
> both original and from prior owner abuse. One fix was resoldering one end
> of a big resistor on the primitive and very noisy motor controller.
> You can buy a new PWM motor controller and potentiometer to upgrade.
> http://benchtopmachineshop.blogspot.com/2017/01/mill-speed-controller.html
> On Sunday, June 13, 2021, 2:30:15 PM MDT, Chris Albertson <
> albertson.ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
>  I have a Harbor freight mini mill with the dumbest possible spindle
> control.  The mill comes from the factory with a variable resistor to
> control speed.  My idea was to connect a variable resistor to a $5 model
> airplane servo.  So the PWM output from LinuxCNC drives the servo and the
> servo turns the pot which controls the spindle motor.  I would never be
> able to do rigid tapping with this setup.
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[Todd Zuercher]

Yes, I have 3ph vfds being controlled by Linuxcnc. On two multi spindle 
routers.  One with 8 spindles and one with 6 spindles.  The 8 spindle machine 
is using MB2hal to control the routers, on/off and set/monitor the speed (AC 
Tech brand VFDs).  The 6 spindle machine is using parallel ports and a cheapo 
parallel port breakout board to control the spindles and set their speed with 
analog control (cheapo Huan Yang knockoff VFDs).  It actually works to send one 
analog output to multiple drives.  

The other routers I've done only turn the spindles on/off.  It would not take 
much to add the speed control, but never bothered since we really don't mess 
with the spindle speeds much.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street 
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: John Dammeyer  
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 3:50 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

Quick little survey on what everyone has on their machine for spindle control.

1. Do you have a VFD on a 3 phase motor for Lathe or Mill.

2. Does the CNC controller drive the spindle or do you set the speed and ON/OFF 
manually?

Just curious
John



"ELS! Nothing else works as well for your Lathe"
Automation Artisans Inc.
www dot autoartisans dot com


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users]

How old is that mill? Those Chinese mini mills and lathes have had PWM spindle 
motor controllers for many years. I used to have a Grizzly mini lathe with a 
low 3 digit serial number, probably from the first batch they imported. I was 
at least the 3rd owner and I had to fix a lot of issues, both original and from 
prior owner abuse. One fix was resoldering one end of a big resistor on the 
primitive and very noisy motor controller.
You can buy a new PWM motor controller and potentiometer to upgrade. 
http://benchtopmachineshop.blogspot.com/2017/01/mill-speed-controller.html
On Sunday, June 13, 2021, 2:30:15 PM MDT, Chris Albertson 
 wrote:  
 I have a Harbor freight mini mill with the dumbest possible spindle
control.  The mill comes from the factory with a variable resistor to
control speed.  My idea was to connect a variable resistor to a $5 model
airplane servo.  So the PWM output from LinuxCNC drives the servo and the
servo turns the pot which controls the spindle motor.  I would never be
able to do rigid tapping with this setup.  
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[John Dammeyer]

Hi Gene, 
> Thats great John. But I haven't noted a ready supply of such speedy parts
> being used on the boards we CAN buy, with the exception of cnc4pc's C1G
> rev 4 board which has been discoed as it was about 85 bucks. It also had
> enough tally leds to light the room with. handy for trouble-shooting
> too. But cnc4pc no longer makes an equivalent bob, dammit.

I've been chatting with Arturo Duncan at CNC4PC and he's been very supportive 
on what I've been doing for my friends CNC system.   Haven't needed another BoB 
for a number of years so I don't really know what is out there now.  And as I 
showed with the schematic, I have the background to be able to make my own 
custom interface boards so it's not a big deal.  I make what I need now because 
PC boards from China are so cheap.
> 
> > Same with the spindle.  The large cast iron single phase AC 2HP 220VAC
> > motor had quite the hum when it was turning.  The much smaller 1.8kW
> > AC Servo is so much quieter and variable speed.I looked into
> > getting a three phase motor for it and a VFD.  The Bergerda
> > combination ended up being cheaper.  But I did have to cast and
> > machine my own pulleys.  Now the noisiest part of the spindle is the
> > rattling of the spline inside the drive part of the quill.
> 
> And thats probably created by the servo's response to quantization noise
> causing motor speed variations that use up the slack. All of that went
> away when I moved from a 274 edge optical encoder on the spindle, to a
> 1000 line on the rear of the motor, my scale for the spindle in the ini
> file is now a bit over 7000 in high gear, and something north of 14k in
> low gear. And below 400 revs, its so quiet I have to look at the tool to
> see if its spinning. The index however, still comes from the spindle.

In my case it's poor quality on the quill/spline interface.  The spindle gets a 
push from the splines and takes up the space until it hits the back of the next 
spline, bounces off and then rattles back.  If I grab the spindle and load it 
with my hand ever so slightly the thing is dead quiet.  

The outside driving part is held in bearings and has a cone shaped profile at 
the top.  The driving pulley from the motor is also tapered and a nut with a 
locking key holds it together.  I would have to create a different drive system 
with perhaps a tighter inner spline or else create a new quill with a tighter 
outer spline.  I'll send you a few 400K JPG off list.

But as a friend said to me the other day.  All this iron that comes from China 
is for the most part meant for repair and one_of manual construction.  To bring 
it up to HAAS standards requires a totally different approach in some areas.  
Like not even having a quill for example.  On one forum the guy converting to 
CNC the same series of mill said if he were to do it again he'd replace the 
Knee dovetailed connection with linear bearings.  I'm not about to go that far. 
 But his approach to how he moved the new upgraded ball screw for the knee is 
nice but would require a complete redesign of where I have my motors.

John



___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[andy pugh]

On Sun, 13 Jun 2021 at 20:52, John Dammeyer  wrote:

> 1. Do you have a VFD on a 3 phase motor for Lathe or Mill.

Both.

> 2. Does the CNC controller drive the spindle or do you set the speed and 
> ON/OFF manually?

The lathe uses a USB "modbus" link (and it's clearly not realtime, but
good enough). HY VFD

The mill uses analogue voltage control of the Mitsubishi VFD.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[Thaddeus Waldner]

Router with 2.2 KW elte spindle run by a GS2 VFD via modbus.

Thaddeus Waldner
Newdale School
Elkton, SD 57026

From: Gene Heskett 
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 4:24:04 PM
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

On Sunday 13 June 2021 15:49:44 John Dammeyer wrote:

> Quick little survey on what everyone has on their machine for spindle
> control.
>
> 1. Do you have a VFD on a 3 phase motor for Lathe or Mill.

2 of my 4 machines follow that recipe.

The Sheldon lathe, with a 30 some lb 8" 4 jaw mounted, can do the
reversal at the bottom of a rigid tap with an overshoot of .25 turns at
100 rpm. The motor is a 1hp 3 phase about 50 years old I had to put
bearings in. The 6040 motor died of bad bearings quickly, so both the
120 volt vfd and the motor were replaced with 250 volt equ's. No
encoder, not enough cajones to tap a hole anyway, but sure did a nice
job cutting out motor mounts and wrenches from 1/2" alu

The other 2 machines have 90 volt, 9.7 amps at full song 1hp PMDC brushed
motors and use Jon Elson's Pico Systems pwm-servo, both with big ugly
125 volt supplies and all get faster than expected control. Either
supply is good for 30 amps surge. Jon's servo makes them both behave
themselves well. They don't really have a choice with that kind of power
banging on them.

> 2. Does the CNC controller drive the spindle or do you set the speed
> and ON/OFF manually?

LCNC does it all.

> Just curious
> John
>
>
>
> "ELS! Nothing else works as well for your Lathe"
> Automation Artisans Inc.
> www dot autoartisans dot com
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 13 June 2021 17:27:51 John Dammeyer wrote:

> > From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> >
> > On Sunday 13 June 2021 14:43:00 John Dammeyer wrote:
> > > At the moment I still have the stepgen 5 on the second parallel
> > > port so I can measure both PWM and STEPPING.
> > >
> > > Raspberry Pi4 + 1GB + LinuxCNC + MESA_7i92H + ProbotixBoB + custom
> > > VHDL for the MESA board thanks to Peter Wallace at MESA.
> > >
> > > AXIS display shows 1500 RPM, PWM is 50% and if I zoom in on the
> > > step pulses my scope tells me it's 250kHz which is 50% of the max
> > > step rate as currently set.
> >
> > BBBuuutt, 250 khz is right at the ragged edge of what the
> > opto-isolators in the input of most stepper drivers can pass. If you
> > want maximum speed, cut the drivers divisor in half at the
> > dipswitches, and cut that axis's scale in half for the same motor
> > speed at half the step rate...
>
> Hey Gene,
> You're probably using cheap far east parts when you talk about optos.

Well, its what is supplied, in/on what we can buy, both in driver inputs 
like the 2m542 and its ilk, and in common bob's. The 7 cent parts in 
reel qty's. And generally speaking, its fast enough to push the motor 
fast enough its coil inductance gets in the way of ever reaching the 
labeled on the dip switches current flow, so the torque goes down to zip 
anyway.

The link below is to a GAs led, some of which can easily be driven by a 4 
channel encoder for tv fiber interconnections with all 4 channels being 
full hi def, and its definitely not the 7 cent variety. Probably at 
least a magnitude higher priced. 94 cents in 1k lots ack the link. At 10 
Mb/sec thats slow, good ones can do gigabit+ speeds but aren't cheap.

> This one that I use is good to 10Mbps.
> https://www.onsemi.com/products/optoelectronics/high-performance-optoc
>ouplers/high-speed-logic-gate-optocouplers/hcpl2631v
>
> And the AM26LS31 differential line driver is also way up there in
> speed.  And the spec on the Bergerda AC Servo is that it also can
> handle that speed.

Thats great John. But I haven't noted a ready supply of such speedy parts 
being used on the boards we CAN buy, with the exception of cnc4pc's C1G 
rev 4 board which has been discoed as it was about 85 bucks. It also had 
enough tally leds to light the room with. handy for trouble-shooting 
too. But cnc4pc no longer makes an equivalent bob, dammit.

> I've attached the schematic of my interface board for the spindle. 
> Note I do use the slow 4N27's for the slow signals like ENABLE and
> FAULT.  Even the PWM DIR signal which is separate from the STEP/DIR
> signals is only buffered with a 4N27 since again the speed for
> direction change isn't a big deal.
>
In my case for the BS1 servo, I used the pwngen in mode 2 and speed was 
needed as slow=hot chips.

> > Well above what the average bob can pass. And 3k rpms is pushing a
> > stepper too fast for anything but laying loose on the table.
> > if you want real, usable torque, stay below 1500 revs.
>
> IMHO steppers are really useless above about 750 RPM unless they are
> so oversized that the torque drop off above that speed still runs the
> machine.
>
> But I'm _not_ using steppers.   AC and DC Servo motors.  Don't suffer
> from the issues that steppers suffer and wonderfully quiet.  Where
> before with the GECKO and 1000 oz-in stepper on the knee I couldn't
> hear the bevel gears rattling.  Now the motor is so quiet the other
> noises become annoying.

Yup.

> Same with the spindle.  The large cast iron single phase AC 2HP 220VAC
> motor had quite the hum when it was turning.  The much smaller 1.8kW
> AC Servo is so much quieter and variable speed.I looked into
> getting a three phase motor for it and a VFD.  The Bergerda
> combination ended up being cheaper.  But I did have to cast and
> machine my own pulleys.  Now the noisiest part of the spindle is the
> rattling of the spline inside the drive part of the quill.

And thats probably created by the servo's response to quantization noise 
causing motor speed variations that use up the slack. All of that went 
away when I moved from a 274 edge optical encoder on the spindle, to a 
1000 line on the rear of the motor, my scale for the spindle in the ini 
file is now a bit over 7000 in high gear, and something north of 14k in 
low gear. And below 400 revs, its so quiet I have to look at the tool to 
see if its spinning. The index however, still comes from the spindle.

> John


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[John Dammeyer]

> From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]


> On Sunday 13 June 2021 14:43:00 John Dammeyer wrote:
> 
> > At the moment I still have the stepgen 5 on the second parallel port
> > so I can measure both PWM and STEPPING.
> >
> > Raspberry Pi4 + 1GB + LinuxCNC + MESA_7i92H + ProbotixBoB + custom
> > VHDL for the MESA board thanks to Peter Wallace at MESA.
> >
> > AXIS display shows 1500 RPM, PWM is 50% and if I zoom in on the step
> > pulses my scope tells me it's 250kHz which is 50% of the max step rate
> > as currently set.
> 
> BBBuuutt, 250 khz is right at the ragged edge of what the opto-isolators
> in the input of most stepper drivers can pass. If you want maximum
> speed, cut the drivers divisor in half at the dipswitches, and cut that
> axis's scale in half for the same motor speed at half the step rate...

Hey Gene,
You're probably using cheap far east parts when you talk about optos.  

This one that I use is good to 10Mbps.
https://www.onsemi.com/products/optoelectronics/high-performance-optocouplers/high-speed-logic-gate-optocouplers/hcpl2631v

And the AM26LS31 differential line driver is also way up there in speed.  And 
the spec on the Bergerda AC Servo is that it also can handle that speed.

I've attached the schematic of my interface board for the spindle.  Note I do 
use the slow 4N27's for the slow signals like ENABLE and FAULT.  Even the PWM 
DIR signal which is separate from the STEP/DIR signals is only buffered with a 
4N27 since again the speed for direction change isn't a big deal.  

> Well above what the average bob can pass. And 3k rpms is pushing a
> stepper too fast for anything but laying loose on the table.
> if you want real, usable torque, stay below 1500 revs. 

IMHO steppers are really useless above about 750 RPM unless they are so 
oversized that the torque drop off above that speed still runs the machine.

But I'm _not_ using steppers.   AC and DC Servo motors.  Don't suffer from the 
issues that steppers suffer and wonderfully quiet.  Where before with the GECKO 
and 1000 oz-in stepper on the knee I couldn't hear the bevel gears rattling.  
Now the motor is so quiet the other noises become annoying.

Same with the spindle.  The large cast iron single phase AC 2HP 220VAC motor 
had quite the hum when it was turning.  The much smaller 1.8kW AC Servo is so 
much quieter and variable speed.I looked into getting a three phase motor 
for it and a VFD.  The Bergerda combination ended up being cheaper.  But I did 
have to cast and machine my own pulleys.  Now the noisiest part of the spindle 
is the rattling of the spline inside the drive part of the quill.  

John


PWMSpindle.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 13 June 2021 15:49:44 John Dammeyer wrote:

> Quick little survey on what everyone has on their machine for spindle
> control.
>
> 1. Do you have a VFD on a 3 phase motor for Lathe or Mill.

2 of my 4 machines follow that recipe.

The Sheldon lathe, with a 30 some lb 8" 4 jaw mounted, can do the 
reversal at the bottom of a rigid tap with an overshoot of .25 turns at 
100 rpm. The motor is a 1hp 3 phase about 50 years old I had to put 
bearings in. The 6040 motor died of bad bearings quickly, so both the 
120 volt vfd and the motor were replaced with 250 volt equ's. No 
encoder, not enough cajones to tap a hole anyway, but sure did a nice 
job cutting out motor mounts and wrenches from 1/2" alu

The other 2 machines have 90 volt, 9.7 amps at full song 1hp PMDC brushed 
motors and use Jon Elson's Pico Systems pwm-servo, both with big ugly 
125 volt supplies and all get faster than expected control. Either 
supply is good for 30 amps surge. Jon's servo makes them both behave 
themselves well. They don't really have a choice with that kind of power 
banging on them.

> 2. Does the CNC controller drive the spindle or do you set the speed
> and ON/OFF manually?

LCNC does it all.

> Just curious
> John
>
>
>
> "ELS! Nothing else works as well for your Lathe"
> Automation Artisans Inc.
> www dot autoartisans dot com
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 13 June 2021 14:43:00 John Dammeyer wrote:

> At the moment I still have the stepgen 5 on the second parallel port
> so I can measure both PWM and STEPPING.
>
> Raspberry Pi4 + 1GB + LinuxCNC + MESA_7i92H + ProbotixBoB + custom
> VHDL for the MESA board thanks to Peter Wallace at MESA.
>
> AXIS display shows 1500 RPM, PWM is 50% and if I zoom in on the step
> pulses my scope tells me it's 250kHz which is 50% of the max step rate
> as currently set.

BBBuuutt, 250 khz is right at the ragged edge of what the opto-isolators 
in the input of most stepper drivers can pass. If you want maximum 
speed, cut the drivers divisor in half at the dipswitches, and cut that 
axis's scale in half for the same motor speed at half the step rate...
 
> Math for that is 2500 line encoder = 10,000 edges per revolution which
> at 3000 RPM is 50 RPS.  And 50 x 10,000 = 500Khz step rate.

Well above what the average bob can pass. And 3k rpms is pushing a 
stepper too fast for anything but laying loose on the table. 
if you want real, usable torque, stay below 1500 revs. Maybe 2000 but 
only with a 48 volt supply on a 50 volt rated driver. I turn my 48's 
down to 42.5 just so the driver has some headroom before it breaks the 
mirror and lets out the smoke.

Again, that is only valid if there are no opto or other noise suppressing 
capacitors in the bobs input circuits. I've had to modify nearly every 
bob I have ever used to bypass the opto's or remove the noise filtering, 
even the opto-less sainsmart 5 axis bob has had to be modified by 
removing the grain of sand capacitors in the inputs connected to the 
encoder in the motor for my A axis servo.

> The encoder on the spindle will have less lines and likely I'll
> program the Bergerda Servo to divide the encoder by 5 to bring my step
> rate for the spindle down to 100kHz.  It's differential drive out to
> the Bergerda so I'm not too worried about noise.
>
> Power tapping here I come.  Baby steps.
>
> John
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
> > Sent: June-13-21 1:35 AM
> > To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control
> >
> > So here's the photo with the Pi4 1GB running LinuxCNC.  The 4 roller
> > switches are the three homes and the shared limit for the other
> > axis.  Normally there would be 3 in series.  The orange paddle
> > switch is estop.  The cable to these switches goes to the 7i92H
> > P2.DB25.
> >
> > On the P1 connector I have the Probotix BoB.  No isolation needed
> > for testing so it's powered from the same supply on both sides.  I
> > have the scope on Pins 2,3 of what would be the second DB25.
> >
> > Now if I plug a motor into the step/dir outputs of the BoB it should
> > spin the motor based on requested spindle RPM.
> >
> > Been a good day.
> > John
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
> > > Sent: June-13-21 1:05 AM
> > > To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control
> > >
> > > No worries.  Found the solution.
> > > I have spindle.0.speed-out-rps connected to spindle-cmd  which 
> > > ends up being a signed float.
> > >
> > > net spindle-cmd <= spindle.0.speed-out-rps
> > >
> > > And that's connected to the stepgen
> > > net spindle-cmd =>  hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.velocity-cmd
> > >
> > > Results in my P1.19_DB25.2 showing a square wave on the scope when
> > > I toggle the axis CW and click on the speed.  Change to
> >
> > CCW
> >
> > > and click speed again I get the square wave on the scope and the
> > > P1.23_DB25.3 changes to a logic high for a change in direction.
> > >
> > > More when I test it with a motor.
> > > John


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[Cristian Bontas]

router mill, 2.2 kW water-cooled spindle, VFD (Huanyang clone)

driven by LinuxCNC, through RS432

On 6/13/2021 22:49, John Dammeyer wrote:

Quick little survey on what everyone has on their machine for spindle control.
  
1. Do you have a VFD on a 3 phase motor for Lathe or Mill.
  
2. Does the CNC controller drive the spindle or do you set the speed and ON/OFF manually?
  
Just curious

John
  
  
  
"ELS! Nothing else works as well for your Lathe"

Automation Artisans Inc.
www dot autoartisans dot com
  


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[Peter Hodgson]

1) 2HP 3 phase motor powered by VFD (with 240v single phase supply) on Emco 
lathe

2) VFD vari speed controlled with LCNC via Pico Systems Board

> On 13 Jun 2021, at 20:55, Matthew Herd  wrote:
> 
> 1. VFD w/ 3 phase 2hp motor on a mill
> 
> 2. Planned implementation of hybrid VFD and vari-speed controlled speed, but 
> currently set manually via the vari-speed head. 
> 
>> On Jun 13, 2021, at 3:49 PM, John Dammeyer  wrote:
>> 
>> Quick little survey on what everyone has on their machine for spindle 
>> control.
>> 
>> 1. Do you have a VFD on a 3 phase motor for Lathe or Mill.
>> 
>> 2. Does the CNC controller drive the spindle or do you set the speed and 
>> ON/OFF manually?
>> 
>> Just curious
>> John
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> "ELS! Nothing else works as well for your Lathe"
>> Automation Artisans Inc.
>> www dot autoartisans dot com 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> Emc-users mailing list
>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[Chris Albertson]

I have a Harbor freight mini mill with the dumbest possible spindle
control.  The mill comes from the factory with a variable resistor to
control speed.   My idea was to connect a variable resistor to a $5 model
airplane servo.  So the PWM output from LinuxCNC drives the servo and the
servo turns the pot which controls the spindle motor.   I would never be
able to do rigid tapping with this setup.

I just bought a generic 600 line per revolution optical encoder on eBay I
intend to use this to measure spindle RPM.  My plan is to use one of those
new $4 Raspberry Pi "Pico" boards to read the encoder.   The little
microcontroller can encode data line crossing at over 1MHz.  I plan to
send the data back to LinuxCNC.

Then in phase 2, I will put the PID control loop inside the Pico.  Then
over time move other functions like limit and home switch interfacing into
the Pico.   This will reduce the wires as the pico can be mounted
directly to the mill and housed in a little plastic box

But today the spindle is open loop with no RPM sensor and a model airplane
servo turns the knob for me.

Anyone wanting to do real-time control for way-cheap needs to look at the
Raspberry Pi Pico.   They cost $4 each and have two ARM M0 cores and also
the "PIO" system which is basically 8 very simple and fast "cores" that
have direct access to IO pins and run independently of the two CPU cores.
Oh, and the entire thing can be programmed in Python if you like. Or you
can use the Arduino IDC,  It is very easy for beginners.



On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 12:52 PM John Dammeyer 
wrote:

> Quick little survey on what everyone has on their machine for spindle
> control.
>
> 1. Do you have a VFD on a 3 phase motor for Lathe or Mill.
>
> 2. Does the CNC controller drive the spindle or do you set the speed and
> ON/OFF manually?
>
> Just curious
> John
>
>
>
> "ELS! Nothing else works as well for your Lathe"
> Automation Artisans Inc.
> www dot autoartisans dot com
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[Matthew Herd]

1. VFD w/ 3 phase 2hp motor on a mill

2. Planned implementation of hybrid VFD and vari-speed controlled speed, but 
currently set manually via the vari-speed head. 

> On Jun 13, 2021, at 3:49 PM, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> 
> Quick little survey on what everyone has on their machine for spindle control.
> 
> 1. Do you have a VFD on a 3 phase motor for Lathe or Mill.
> 
> 2. Does the CNC controller drive the spindle or do you set the speed and 
> ON/OFF manually?
> 
> Just curious
> John
> 
> 
> 
> "ELS! Nothing else works as well for your Lathe"
> Automation Artisans Inc.
> www dot autoartisans dot com 
> 
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

[Emc-users] Spindle Control

[John Dammeyer]

Quick little survey on what everyone has on their machine for spindle control.
 
1. Do you have a VFD on a 3 phase motor for Lathe or Mill.
 
2. Does the CNC controller drive the spindle or do you set the speed and ON/OFF 
manually?
 
Just curious
John
 
 
 
"ELS! Nothing else works as well for your Lathe"
Automation Artisans Inc.
www dot autoartisans dot com 
 

___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[John Dammeyer]

At the moment I still have the stepgen 5 on the second parallel port so I can 
measure both PWM and STEPPING.

Raspberry Pi4 + 1GB + LinuxCNC + MESA_7i92H + ProbotixBoB + custom VHDL for the 
MESA board thanks to Peter Wallace at MESA.

AXIS display shows 1500 RPM, PWM is 50% and if I zoom in on the step pulses my 
scope tells me it's 250kHz which is 50% of the max step rate as currently set.

Math for that is 2500 line encoder = 10,000 edges per revolution which at 3000 
RPM is 50 RPS.  And 50 x 10,000 = 500Khz step rate.

The encoder on the spindle will have less lines and likely I'll program the 
Bergerda Servo to divide the encoder by 5 to bring my step rate for the spindle 
down to 100kHz.  It's differential drive out to the Bergerda so I'm not too 
worried about noise.

Power tapping here I come.  Baby steps.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
> Sent: June-13-21 1:35 AM
> To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control
> 
> So here's the photo with the Pi4 1GB running LinuxCNC.  The 4 roller switches 
> are the three homes and the shared limit for the other
> axis.  Normally there would be 3 in series.  The orange paddle switch is 
> estop.  The cable to these switches goes to the 7i92H
> P2.DB25.
> 
> On the P1 connector I have the Probotix BoB.  No isolation needed for testing 
> so it's powered from the same supply on both sides.  I
> have the scope on Pins 2,3 of what would be the second DB25.
> 
> Now if I plug a motor into the step/dir outputs of the BoB it should spin the 
> motor based on requested spindle RPM.
> 
> Been a good day.
> John
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
> > Sent: June-13-21 1:05 AM
> > To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control
> >
> > No worries.  Found the solution.
> > I have spindle.0.speed-out-rps connected to spindle-cmd  which  ends up 
> > being a signed float.
> >
> > net spindle-cmd <= spindle.0.speed-out-rps
> >
> > And that's connected to the stepgen
> > net spindle-cmd =>  hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.velocity-cmd
> >
> > Results in my P1.19_DB25.2 showing a square wave on the scope when I toggle 
> > the axis CW and click on the speed.  Change to
> CCW
> > and click speed again I get the square wave on the scope and the 
> > P1.23_DB25.3 changes to a logic high for a change in direction.
> >
> > More when I test it with a motor.
> > John
> >
> >
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[John Dammeyer]

So here's the photo with the Pi4 1GB running LinuxCNC.  The 4 roller switches 
are the three homes and the shared limit for the other axis.  Normally there 
would be 3 in series.  The orange paddle switch is estop.  The cable to these 
switches goes to the 7i92H P2.DB25.

On the P1 connector I have the Probotix BoB.  No isolation needed for testing 
so it's powered from the same supply on both sides.  I have the scope on Pins 
2,3 of what would be the second DB25.  

Now if I plug a motor into the step/dir outputs of the BoB it should spin the 
motor based on requested spindle RPM.

Been a good day.
John

> -Original Message-
> From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
> Sent: June-13-21 1:05 AM
> To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control
> 
> No worries.  Found the solution.
> I have spindle.0.speed-out-rps connected to spindle-cmd  which  ends up being 
> a signed float.
> 
> net spindle-cmd <= spindle.0.speed-out-rps
> 
> And that's connected to the stepgen
> net spindle-cmd =>  hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.velocity-cmd
> 
> Results in my P1.19_DB25.2 showing a square wave on the scope when I toggle 
> the axis CW and click on the speed.  Change to CCW
> and click speed again I get the square wave on the scope and the P1.23_DB25.3 
> changes to a logic high for a change in direction.
> 
> More when I test it with a motor.
> John
> 
> 
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[John Dammeyer]

No worries.  Found the solution.
I have spindle.0.speed-out-rps connected to spindle-cmd  which  ends up being a 
signed float.

net spindle-cmd <= spindle.0.speed-out-rps

And that's connected to the stepgen
net spindle-cmd =>  hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.velocity-cmd

Results in my P1.19_DB25.2 showing a square wave on the scope when I toggle the 
axis CW and click on the speed.  Change to CCW and click speed again I get the 
square wave on the scope and the P1.23_DB25.3 changes to a logic high for a 
change in direction.

More when I test it with a motor.
John



> -Original Message-
> From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
> Sent: June-12-21 11:22 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: [Emc-users] Spindle control
> 
> I'm having a problem understanding how to control a spindle with step/dir 
> rather than PWM.
> 
> From what I've read on
> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/examples/spindle.html
> 
> essentially the spindle speed is a positive number and the M3 and M4 commands 
> are connected to whatever pin(s) controls the
> direction of the spindle, if it can even change direction.
> 
> OTOH, from what I can see about the different axis like XY & Z is that the 
> velocity request is signed.  And the stepgen takes the
> absolute value of that to set the step rate and the sign to set the direction.
> 
> What I can't figure out is how to translate that so that a stepgen running 
> the spindle can control the direction.
> 
> Where the PWM direction is controlled by
> 
> # PWM dir pin config
> setp   hm2_7i92.0.gpio.005.is_output true
> net spindle-ccw  =>  hm2_7i92.0.gpio.005.out
> 
> and the initial direction of a stepgen is handled with a positive or negative 
> stepscale
> 
> This thread
> https://forum.linuxcnc.org/24-hal-components/30638-how-to-change-motor-spin-directions
> 
> in a way addresses the problem but not with stepgen.
> 
> In my HAL file I have:
> net spindle-ccw<=  motion.spindle-reverse
> 
> How would I use spindle-ccw to control the value of a stepgen direction?
> 
> Or would I somehow change the requested velocity to be +/- so the stepgen 
> properly controls the direction output.
> 
> Is there an easy way?
> Thanks
> John Dammeyer
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

[Emc-users] Spindle control

[John Dammeyer]

I'm having a problem understanding how to control a spindle with step/dir 
rather than PWM.
 
>From what I've read on 
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/examples/spindle.html
 
essentially the spindle speed is a positive number and the M3 and M4 commands 
are connected to whatever pin(s) controls the direction of the spindle, if it 
can even change direction.
 
OTOH, from what I can see about the different axis like XY & Z is that the 
velocity request is signed.  And the stepgen takes the absolute value of that 
to set the step rate and the sign to set the direction.
 
What I can't figure out is how to translate that so that a stepgen running the 
spindle can control the direction.
 
Where the PWM direction is controlled by
 
# PWM dir pin config 
setp   hm2_7i92.0.gpio.005.is_output true
net spindle-ccw  =>  hm2_7i92.0.gpio.005.out
 
and the initial direction of a stepgen is handled with a positive or negative 
stepscale
 
This thread
https://forum.linuxcnc.org/24-hal-components/30638-how-to-change-motor-spin-directions
 
in a way addresses the problem but not with stepgen.
 
In my HAL file I have:
net spindle-ccw<=  motion.spindle-reverse
 
How would I use spindle-ccw to control the value of a stepgen direction?
 
Or would I somehow change the requested velocity to be +/- so the stepgen 
properly controls the direction output.
 
Is there an easy way?
Thanks 
John Dammeyer

___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[Frank Tkalcevic]

I did that too.  I printed a 200mm diameter disk with 72 black white pairs, 
read with a P5587 Photoreflector.  It currently only reads speed, but I'm about 
to replace the sensor to give quadrature output, so I can gear hob, as Andy has 
shown.



-Original Message-
From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com] 
Sent: Thursday, 18 July 2019 11:56 AM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

Thanks Jon,
 
I have lots of room under the pulley to mount something.  Steel disk with slots 
and a hall sensor would easily do it.  It's what I was going to do for simple 
RPM sensing into the Shumatch DRO with the reflective tape.  Another project 
that was never finished.
John
 

 
> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Elson [mailto:el...@pico-systems.com]
> Sent: July-17-19 6:22 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control
> 
> On 07/17/2019 03:51 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > There are a number of videos out there changing up the G0704 gear 
> > driven
> spindle to belt drive.  Some use toothed belts, others a double set of 
> pulleys.  Most of the videos explain that they will soon but the 
> slotted RPM sensor disk back on but for most of them they've not done that 
> yet.
> >
> > For LinuxCNC what sort of encoder resolution is required on the 
> > spindle to
> be able to do tapping.  I know I can do it with one pulse per rev with 
> my Electronic Lead Screw to cut nice threads but I also don't slow 
> down the spindle at the end of a tap into a blind hole while tracking spindle 
> speed.
> >
> Well, if you are using a software encoder counter, you have to limit 
> the encoder count * RPM to what that counter can follow.  If using a 
> hardware encoder counter, then that is not a limitation.
> On my Bridgeport, I am using the 81-tooth bull gear to create an 
> encoder, so that gives 324 quadrature counts/rev.
> That has worked very well.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
>  <mailto:Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> 
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net  
> <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users> 
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[Jon Elson]

On 07/17/2019 08:56 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:

Thanks Jon,
  
I have lots of room under the pulley to mount something.  Steel disk with slots and a hall sensor would easily do it.  It's what I was going to do for simple RPM sensing into the Shumatch DRO with the reflective tape.  Another project that was never finished.


Here's how I dealt with the problem on my Bridgeport.  Due 
to the way the back-gear reduction is set up, and the 
spindle spline and drawbar, it is really difficult to get a 
belt onto the final spindle.

So, I turned the bull gear into the encoder "disc".

http://pico-systems.com/bridge_spindle.html

This has been working well for a number of years.

Jon


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[John Dammeyer]

 
> 
> The requirements for rigid tapping are less stringent than for PID spindle
> speed control. My 50-tooth one was entirely adequate for gear-hobbing.
> 
> Another option would be to use a single index from the spindle and use the
> motor encoder for the A and B phases.
> Though you will need a hardware counter for that many PPR. You can change
> the scale on-the-fly in HAL when you change gear.
> 
> 
> --
> atp

I've attached the spec page for the Bergerda AC Servo controller.  It looks 
like the encoder from the motor can be fed out with a divided ratio.  Not sure 
about the dividing part yet.  Hopefully this weekend I'll have some time to 
play with it.  The 1.8kW motor is much smaller than the big 2HP single phase 
fan cooled motor.  And the AC servo that is comparable in torque and RPM to my 
DC Brushed ones from AutomationTechnologiesInc.com  is also much smaller. It 
won't stick out on the X axis as much.

John


BergerdaServoSpecs.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 18 July 2019 05:57:28 andy pugh wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 at 03:01, Gene Heskett 
> wrote:
>
> I have a G0704 John, and have not managed to damage those plastic
> gears
>
> > yet, but I found a 67 slot wheel replacing the original drilled tach
> > wheel, with slot interruptors had way too much quantization noise to
> > be used as spindle speed feedback.
>
> The requirements for rigid tapping are less stringent than for PID
> spindle speed control. My 50-tooth one was entirely adequate for
> gear-hobbing.
>
> Another option would be to use a single index from the spindle and use
> the motor encoder for the A and B phases.

Perhaps I glossed over that but that is what I did. osed the z from the 
old optical lashup, then a cobbled up a pair of counters in hal stuff 
and started it at three, let it count A pulses till the counter was at 
103. Then divided the A count by 100 to get a scale for each gear. Got 
the ratio, set the scale to the low gear number, and ran it thru a scale 
by that ratio to get the high gear scale.  Seems to be plenty accurate 
for the job.

> Though you will need a hardware counter for that many PPR. You can
> change the scale on-the-fly in HAL when you change gear.

The 5i25 can handle up to about a 10 mhz A/B so thats not a problem.  But 
I was about out of i/o so the firmware got changed to slave a 7i76, did 
the same for the 6040.  So now I have i/o to spare. I took one of the 
bobs out to TLM, mounted in a plastic clamshell glued to the side of the 
motor power and driver box and cabled it up to the computer, but haven't 
gone any farther as I'm doing all the housework and careing for my bride 
of 30 years this December and who is now in the final stages of copd. 
Basicly wanting independent home switches which it doesn't have now.

And I am still shopping for a solidly built CBN coated wheel to sharpen 
lathe tools with, 2 to 2.5" in diameter, maybe up to 1/4" thick. I 
figure on writing some gcode to do that on the 6040, turning the wheel 
only 1500 revs or so.  About as slow as the vfd can drive it. I have a 
4.5" CBN cup but the arbor has some runout or the hole in the cup isn't 
centered. But thats way to big to swing in the 6040. Works passably well 
in the G0704 though. I need to make a jig thats keyed to that A table 
somehow because its 3 jaw isn't precisely centered. I need to work on 
that but thats a $100 table and its main feature is variable backlash. I 
think its bull gear is off center, by about 50 thou. I've even put chalk 
in the grease, trying to wear it in. Isn't helping. Maybe someday I'll 
throw money at it.

One immutable rule John, you get what you pay for.  And  purchase 
mistakes like that are the experience from which we learn. :) 

But you need to get up around an 8" table to get a good one.  And it it 
says Made in India, it IS going to be duff someplace.

But with my back, I can't handle an 8"ers weight and thats too big for a 
G0704 anyway. I've been plotting how to rig a hoist to handle the 
Sheldon's chucks too, that 8" 4 jaw is around 40 lbs, and over my 
comfort limit. I've made a sled that holds it the right height or I 
couldn't change it.  I've a 3 jaw and an ER42 kit for it. Had to make 
quite a bit of that due to the bent spindle, which I had to grind about 
5 thou to make the MT5 run true again. And reface the backplates to take 
that same wobble out of them. All running pretty true these days.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[andy pugh]

On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 at 03:01, Gene Heskett  wrote:

I have a G0704 John, and have not managed to damage those plastic gears
> yet, but I found a 67 slot wheel replacing the original drilled tach
> wheel, with slot interruptors had way too much quantization noise to be
> used as spindle speed feedback.


The requirements for rigid tapping are less stringent than for PID spindle
speed control. My 50-tooth one was entirely adequate for gear-hobbing.

Another option would be to use a single index from the spindle and use the
motor encoder for the A and B phases.
Though you will need a hardware counter for that many PPR. You can change
the scale on-the-fly in HAL when you change gear.


-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 18 July 2019 00:29:50 John Dammeyer wrote:

> > IMO the docs for howto are lacking, but think in terms of a velocity
> > loop, where position is not the target, but velocity is. PID's can
> > handle that nicely but the howto docs aren't as clear as they should
> > be.
> >
> > > https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-Vertical-Mill/G3616
> >
> > Sweet, bigger than anything I have.
>
> Gene,
> From a table size and Z height it's not that much different from the
> G0704 I believe.  The G3617 had a longer table and maybe a bit more Y
> movement but it also had the horizontal boring feature which is why
> the table rotates too.  For helical gear cutting.  Mine does too but
> I've never had to turn it in anger so to speak.  Just more mass for Y
> motor to move.  I think with an A axis along with XYZ and LinuxCNC
> helical gears don't need the XY axis to be twisted but I may be wrong.
>  Haven't looked into that.

But the G0704 by the time you have a y screw and motor in it, is a bit 
short on Y table movement, the y table motion is around 7.5" advertised, 
but comes down to a hair less than 6 in practice. 22" of X is enough to 
make it bind at the ends of travel, so way cleanliness and lube is 
important.

Does the head on that rotate to 90 degrees? My G0704 can go a bit more 
than that, so horizontal boreing can be done, and I have even rigid 
tapped horizontally. And without the speed control box on the side of 
the head, I can get a lot closer to the table.  Pain in the butt to 
retram it to vertical since the post itself isn't vertical. I need to 
wrestle it around to where I can get at the bolts holding the post to 
the base, loosen them and see if I can square that up, its off just 
enough left to right to notice it when you've set a drill chuck on the 
table and are center drilling a tap top hat which is keyed into a 7/8" 
R8, by lowering the brass slug in the R8 onto the correct size for the 
tap, drill. There is always the possibility the chuck isn't sitting dead 
square to the table, but my checking with a dial says the chuck is 
closer to square than the post is.

I then mount the tap with grub screws against its drive flats, and the 
brass slug has a short 4mm cap screw in its side the fits a notch cut in 
the R8 which is pinned to the spindle.  So the tap can't slip 
rotationally. Collets simply cannot grip the tap tight enough to prevent 
their slippage which equals a wrecked hole.  Now I can tap even big 
holes that need to be peck tapped, no place left for it to slip.

I made a drawer like thing, filled with 1.25" long pieces of white 
plastic fencing squares. Made out of scrap wood, its ugly, but now I 
have most of my taps in one place. And protected from knocking the edges 
of the flutes.  Used about 8 feet of 7/8" brass rod to make the top 
hats. Room for 100 such taps in hats, has around 60 in it now.  And 
beginning to get too heavy for the old man's back. :(

> Creating a powered horizontal shaft that hangs from the upper ways
> isn't a big deal so I could still add the horizontal boring feature.
>
> But the machine does have a lot more mass than the smaller ones.

Yup, this G0704 is only 400 lbs.  As far as making helical gears, if the 
proper shape of tooling cutters was available, my rotary table can and 
has supplied the helical to make one time use or maybe twice, custom 
wood drill bits.

> John
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[John Dammeyer]

> IMO the docs for howto are lacking, but think in terms of a velocity
> loop, where position is not the target, but velocity is. PID's can
> handle that nicely but the howto docs aren't as clear as they should be.
> >
> > https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-Vertical-Mill/G3616
> >
> Sweet, bigger than anything I have.
> >
Gene,
>From a table size and Z height it's not that much different from the G0704 I 
>believe.  The G3617 had a longer table and maybe a bit more Y movement but it 
>also had the horizontal boring feature which is why the table rotates too.  
>For helical gear cutting.  Mine does too but I've never had to turn it in 
>anger so to speak.  Just more mass for Y motor to move.  I think with an A 
>axis along with XYZ and LinuxCNC helical gears don't need the XY axis to be 
>twisted but I may be wrong.  Haven't looked into that.  

Creating a powered horizontal shaft that hangs from the upper ways isn't a big 
deal so I could still add the horizontal boring feature.

But the machine does have a lot more mass than the smaller ones.

John




___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 17 July 2019 23:36:17 John Dammeyer wrote:

> > Yup, there are quite a few ways to skin this cat.  Mine  may not be
> > the best, but "it works for me".
> >
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> At the moment my cat is more of a lion.  I have this really nice 1.8kW
> servo and drive that just arrived yesterday.  19mm shaft, 6mm key none
> of which will fit the existing pulleys on the 2HP single phase motor
> (1.5kW).  With all the belts removed I turned on the existing mill
> motor and I'm amazed at how noisy it is.  Hum wise.  Flip power off
> and it coasts silently (almost) to a stop and just before that the
> noise of the centrifugal switches dropping out.My 1HP 3phase
> Baldor with VFD on the SouthBend Heavy 10 is way quieter.
>
VFD's do seem to cut the audible noise consideably.

> At 1725 RPM and two B size belts and an intermediate pulley the range
> of 9 speeds is from 270 to 2950 the low and the high range with the
> single phase motor are lacking.  The new servo is 0 to 3000RPM and I
> think I'll use two pulleys to try and reach 6000RPM
>
> I haven't yet decided if I'll use 0-10V, step/dir or Modbus to run it.
>  Probably easiest to use step/dir on the second parallel port.  I do
> have Peter Homann's little Digispeed DC-06 which takes step/dir and
> creates isolated 10V and MACH3 has a checkbox to support that.  But
> since the servo already supports step/dir it's rather pointless to
> change that to 0-10V externally when the drive can do it internally.
>
> Not sure how I'd use that for LinuxCNC.  In fact I'm not sure how I'd
> configure LinuxCNC to run the spindle with step/dir since it seems to
> be more PWM oriented.  Maybe someone can explain how I'd link a
> step/dir motor to the LinuxCNC spindle in the HAL file.

IMO the docs for howto are lacking, but think in terms of a velocity 
loop, where position is not the target, but velocity is. PID's can 
handle that nicely but the howto docs aren't as clear as they should be.
>
> https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-Vertical-Mill/G3616
>
Sweet, bigger than anything I have.
>
> John
>
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[John Dammeyer]

> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Sokolik [mailto:samco...@gmail.com]
> Sent: July-17-19 8:38 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control
> 
> One of my setups..
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY_vmW1djao
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7QulGiMt20
> 

I remember you posting a link to that on the STMBL group.   Nice then. Still 
nice.   Did you make the two multi-spline pulleys yourself?
John



___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[Sam Sokolik]

One of my setups..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY_vmW1djao

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7QulGiMt20


On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 10:08 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Wednesday 17 July 2019 22:53:52 John Dammeyer wrote:
>
> > Great description. Thanks Gene.
>
> Yup, there are quite a few ways to skin this cat.  Mine  may not be the
> best, but "it works for me".
>
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page 
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>

___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[John Dammeyer]

> 
> Yup, there are quite a few ways to skin this cat.  Mine  may not be the
> best, but "it works for me".
> 
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett

At the moment my cat is more of a lion.  I have this really nice 1.8kW servo 
and drive that just arrived yesterday.  19mm shaft, 6mm key none of which will 
fit the existing pulleys on the 2HP single phase motor (1.5kW).  With all the 
belts removed I turned on the existing mill motor and I'm amazed at how noisy 
it is.  Hum wise.  Flip power off and it coasts silently (almost) to a stop and 
just before that the noise of the centrifugal switches dropping out.My 1HP 
3phase Baldor with VFD on the SouthBend Heavy 10 is way quieter.

At 1725 RPM and two B size belts and an intermediate pulley the range of 9 
speeds is from 270 to 2950 the low and the high range with the single phase 
motor are lacking.  The new servo is 0 to 3000RPM and I think I'll use two 
pulleys to try and reach 6000RPM

I haven't yet decided if I'll use 0-10V, step/dir or Modbus to run it.  
Probably easiest to use step/dir on the second parallel port.  I do have Peter 
Homann's little Digispeed DC-06 which takes step/dir and creates isolated 10V 
and MACH3 has a checkbox to support that.  But since the servo already supports 
step/dir it's rather pointless to change that to 0-10V externally when the 
drive can do it internally.

Not sure how I'd use that for LinuxCNC.  In fact I'm not sure how I'd configure 
LinuxCNC to run the spindle with step/dir since it seems to be more PWM 
oriented.  Maybe someone can explain how I'd link a step/dir motor to the 
LinuxCNC spindle in the HAL file.  

https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-Vertical-Mill/G3616


John



___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 17 July 2019 22:53:52 John Dammeyer wrote:

> Great description. Thanks Gene.

Yup, there are quite a few ways to skin this cat.  Mine  may not be the 
best, but "it works for me".


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[John Dammeyer]

Great description. Thanks Gene.

> -Original Message-
> From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> Sent: July-17-19 7:00 PM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control
> 
> On Wednesday 17 July 2019 16:51:30 John Dammeyer wrote:
> 
> > There are a number of videos out there changing up the G0704 gear
> > driven spindle to belt drive.  Some use toothed belts, others a double
> > set of pulleys.  Most of the videos explain that they will soon but
> > the slotted RPM sensor disk back on but for most of them they've not
> > done that yet.
> >
> > For LinuxCNC what sort of encoder resolution is required on the
> > spindle to be able to do tapping.  I know I can do it with one pulse
> > per rev with my Electronic Lead Screw to cut nice threads but I also
> > don't slow down the spindle at the end of a tap into a blind hole
> > while tracking spindle speed.
> >
> > My new 1.8kW AC Servo motor with a 2500 pulse per rev encoder can echo
> > the encoder pulses out of the drive so if I used a 1:1 toothed belt I
> > could use that.  But if I want stepped pulleys to give me extra torque
> > at low speeds then I'm looking at V belts so I'll need an encoder on
> > the spindle.
> >
> > The spindle pulley on my G3616 type mill has a tapered cone.  That
> > also suggests I want to stay with V belts and just mount a slotted
> > disk onto it rather than try to make a similar cone that holds toothed
> > GT3 belts.  There's room.  But how many slots?
> >
> > Thanks
> > John Dammeyer
> >
> I have a G0704 John, and have not managed to damage those plastic gears
> yet, but I found a 67 slot wheel replacing the original drilled tach
> wheel, with slot interruptors had way too much quantization noise to be
> used as spindle speed feedback. An amount to gain in a pid to hold the
> average speed close enough for rigid tapping, injected so much noise
> into the servo that it sounded like the spindle bearings had square
> balls slowly destroying their cages.  The noise was actually the servo
> amp slamming the tooth clearances back and forth.
> 
> Some background: I took the OEM control box off, and built a power supply
> makeing a well filtered 126 volts dc, good for 20 amps surge.  And I
> took the output of the spindle PID to  a pwmgen module in a 5i25, and
> that PWM signal to one of Jons (Pico Systems)PWM-Servo amps which is
> heavy enough to control a PSU with that sort of muscle.  The  motor has
> a nameplate voltage of 0 at 9.7 amps for its one hp rating.  So I've
> power enough to reverse the spindle from 2900 revs fwd to 2900 revs
> backwards in about 400 miliseconds, and back again. I have Jons amp set
> to current limit at about 17 amps and you can hear it chirp as it does
> this.
> 
> But that homemade encoder was just too coarse, so without really
> figureing it out ahead of time, I bought on fleabay, an Omron encoder
> with a 1000 line quadrature A/B/Z output. Once it was in hand. I drilled
> and tapped the top of the motor shaft and planted a 5mm extension about
> 5/8" long and made a mount to put the encoder on top of the motor so it
> spins at motor rpms.
> 
> Somewhere along the line I discovered the encoder was a low voltage
> differential output, so the A/B wires were interrupted by a pair of
> rs-485 interfaces, about $2 each on fleabay. They turned out to be
> bi-dir, so I had to jumper them for one way, and they gave me some purty
> 5 volt rail to rail signals to feed a 5i25's encoder inputs. The Z still
> comes from the old optical because it needs to mark zero degrees on the
> spindle. Then I put a notch in the speed knob that fitted the rollers of
> 2 small micro switches, and made a sandwich out of a pair of half
> circles cut from .030 alu sheet with the microswitches between them and
> arranged to see that notch, sending a pair of "I'm in gear so and so"
> back to the 5i25.  Those face a mux4 which is used to both slow the
> motor to a crawl when neither switch is closed, and scale the SCALE from
> the ini file for feedback to the pid and video tach. I temporarily added
> some more hal to make me a scale reference, so the SCALE is scaled to
> the correct values regardless of which gear its in, and rigid tapping is
> correct in either gear.
> 
> That gives me an effective scale of a bit over 7000/rev in high gear, and
> something over 14000 in low gear. Quantization noise has vanished! I
> won't claim its silent, but I have to either look, or listen real
> carefully to make sure the spindle is turning. The 2 unused inputs to
> the mux4 are fed about a 25 motor rpm offset voltage by a setp in the
> hal file,

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 17 July 2019 21:59:53 Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Wednesday 17 July 2019 16:51:30 John Dammeyer wrote:
> > There are a number of videos out there changing up the G0704 gear
> > driven spindle to belt drive.  Some use toothed belts, others a
> > double set of pulleys.  Most of the videos explain that they will
> > soon but the slotted RPM sensor disk back on but for most of them
> > they've not done that yet.
> >
> > For LinuxCNC what sort of encoder resolution is required on the
> > spindle to be able to do tapping.  I know I can do it with one pulse
> > per rev with my Electronic Lead Screw to cut nice threads but I also
> > don't slow down the spindle at the end of a tap into a blind hole
> > while tracking spindle speed.
> >
> > My new 1.8kW AC Servo motor with a 2500 pulse per rev encoder can
> > echo the encoder pulses out of the drive so if I used a 1:1 toothed
> > belt I could use that.  But if I want stepped pulleys to give me
> > extra torque at low speeds then I'm looking at V belts so I'll need
> > an encoder on the spindle.
> >
> > The spindle pulley on my G3616 type mill has a tapered cone.  That
> > also suggests I want to stay with V belts and just mount a slotted
> > disk onto it rather than try to make a similar cone that holds
> > toothed GT3 belts.  There's room.  But how many slots?
> >
> > Thanks
> > John Dammeyer
>
> I have a G0704 John, and have not managed to damage those plastic
> gears yet, but I found a 67 slot wheel replacing the original drilled
> tach wheel, with slot interruptors had way too much quantization noise
> to be used as spindle speed feedback. An amount to gain in a pid to
> hold the average speed close enough for rigid tapping, injected so
> much noise into the servo that it sounded like the spindle bearings
> had square balls slowly destroying their cages.  The noise was
> actually the servo amp slamming the tooth clearances back and forth.
>
> Some background: I took the OEM control box off, and built a power
> supply makeing a well filtered 126 volts dc, good for 20 amps surge. 
> And I took the output of the spindle PID to  a pwmgen module in a
> 5i25, and that PWM signal to one of Jons (Pico Systems)PWM-Servo amps
> which is heavy enough to control a PSU with that sort of muscle.  The 
> motor has a nameplate voltage of 0 at 9.7 amps for its one hp rating.
typu correction
motor has a nameplate voltage of 90 at 9.7 amps for its one hp rating.

> So I've power enough to reverse the spindle from 2900 revs fwd to 2900
> revs backwards in about 400 miliseconds, and back again. I have Jons
> amp set to current limit at about 17 amps and you can hear it chirp as
> it does this.
>
> But that homemade encoder was just too coarse, so without really
> figureing it out ahead of time, I bought on fleabay, an Omron encoder
> with a 1000 line quadrature A/B/Z output. Once it was in hand. I
> drilled and tapped the top of the motor shaft and planted a 5mm
> extension about 5/8" long and made a mount to put the encoder on top
> of the motor so it spins at motor rpms.
>
> Somewhere along the line I discovered the encoder was a low voltage
> differential output, so the A/B wires were interrupted by a pair of
> rs-485 interfaces, about $2 each on fleabay. They turned out to be
> bi-dir, so I had to jumper them for one way, and they gave me some
> purty 5 volt rail to rail signals to feed a 5i25's encoder inputs. The
> Z still comes from the old optical because it needs to mark zero
> degrees on the spindle. Then I put a notch in the speed knob that
> fitted the rollers of 2 small micro switches, and made a sandwich out
> of a pair of half circles cut from .030 alu sheet with the
> microswitches between them and arranged to see that notch, sending a
> pair of "I'm in gear so and so" back to the 5i25.  Those face a mux4
> which is used to both slow the motor to a crawl when neither switch is
> closed, and scale the SCALE from the ini file for feedback to the pid
> and video tach. I temporarily added some more hal to make me a scale
> reference, so the SCALE is scaled to the correct values regardless of
> which gear its in, and rigid tapping is correct in either gear.
>
> That gives me an effective scale of a bit over 7000/rev in high gear,
> and something over 14000 in low gear. Quantization noise has vanished!
> I won't claim its silent, but I have to either look, or listen real
> carefully to make sure the spindle is turning. The 2 unused inputs to
> the mux4 are fed about a 25 motor rpm offset voltage by a setp in the
> hal file, and the speed response is so instant that I can reach up and
> change gears while running wide open since by the time the knob has
> been turned 3 degrees, the motor has slowed to a crawl, the flat faced
> gears change silently and are completely engaged by the time the other
> switch closes. 200 millisecs later the motor is back to top speed and
> the spindle is turning at either 1500, or 3000 revs.  All with zero
> possibility of damaging 

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 17 July 2019 21:22:21 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 07/17/2019 03:51 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > There are a number of videos out there changing up the G0704 gear
> > driven spindle to belt drive.  Some use toothed belts, others a
> > double set of pulleys.  Most of the videos explain that they will
> > soon but the slotted RPM sensor disk back on but for most of them
> > they've not done that yet.
> >
> > For LinuxCNC what sort of encoder resolution is required on the
> > spindle to be able to do tapping.  I know I can do it with one pulse
> > per rev with my Electronic Lead Screw to cut nice threads but I also
> > don't slow down the spindle at the end of a tap into a blind hole
> > while tracking spindle speed.
>
> Well, if you are using a software encoder counter, you have
> to limit the encoder count * RPM to what that counter can
> follow.  If using a hardware encoder counter, then that is
> not a limitation.
> On my Bridgeport, I am using the 81-tooth bull gear to
> create an encoder, so that gives 324 quadrature counts/rev.
> That has worked very well.
>
> Jon

I am using the 60 tooth main gear, part of the backgear drive on my 
Sheldon. Some quantization noise gets into the z drive, but not enough 
to hurt the rigid threading, and since I'm driving with a vfd, I've 
never been tempted to put in a PID for speed control, the vfd is more 
than enough.
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 17 July 2019 16:51:30 John Dammeyer wrote:

> There are a number of videos out there changing up the G0704 gear
> driven spindle to belt drive.  Some use toothed belts, others a double
> set of pulleys.  Most of the videos explain that they will soon but
> the slotted RPM sensor disk back on but for most of them they've not
> done that yet.
>
> For LinuxCNC what sort of encoder resolution is required on the
> spindle to be able to do tapping.  I know I can do it with one pulse
> per rev with my Electronic Lead Screw to cut nice threads but I also
> don't slow down the spindle at the end of a tap into a blind hole
> while tracking spindle speed.
>
> My new 1.8kW AC Servo motor with a 2500 pulse per rev encoder can echo
> the encoder pulses out of the drive so if I used a 1:1 toothed belt I
> could use that.  But if I want stepped pulleys to give me extra torque
> at low speeds then I'm looking at V belts so I'll need an encoder on
> the spindle.
>
> The spindle pulley on my G3616 type mill has a tapered cone.  That
> also suggests I want to stay with V belts and just mount a slotted
> disk onto it rather than try to make a similar cone that holds toothed
> GT3 belts.  There's room.  But how many slots?
>
> Thanks
> John Dammeyer
>
I have a G0704 John, and have not managed to damage those plastic gears 
yet, but I found a 67 slot wheel replacing the original drilled tach 
wheel, with slot interruptors had way too much quantization noise to be 
used as spindle speed feedback. An amount to gain in a pid to hold the 
average speed close enough for rigid tapping, injected so much noise 
into the servo that it sounded like the spindle bearings had square 
balls slowly destroying their cages.  The noise was actually the servo 
amp slamming the tooth clearances back and forth.

Some background: I took the OEM control box off, and built a power supply 
makeing a well filtered 126 volts dc, good for 20 amps surge.  And I 
took the output of the spindle PID to  a pwmgen module in a 5i25, and 
that PWM signal to one of Jons (Pico Systems)PWM-Servo amps which is 
heavy enough to control a PSU with that sort of muscle.  The  motor has 
a nameplate voltage of 0 at 9.7 amps for its one hp rating.  So I've 
power enough to reverse the spindle from 2900 revs fwd to 2900 revs 
backwards in about 400 miliseconds, and back again. I have Jons amp set 
to current limit at about 17 amps and you can hear it chirp as it does 
this.

But that homemade encoder was just too coarse, so without really 
figureing it out ahead of time, I bought on fleabay, an Omron encoder 
with a 1000 line quadrature A/B/Z output. Once it was in hand. I drilled 
and tapped the top of the motor shaft and planted a 5mm extension about 
5/8" long and made a mount to put the encoder on top of the motor so it 
spins at motor rpms.

Somewhere along the line I discovered the encoder was a low voltage 
differential output, so the A/B wires were interrupted by a pair of 
rs-485 interfaces, about $2 each on fleabay. They turned out to be 
bi-dir, so I had to jumper them for one way, and they gave me some purty 
5 volt rail to rail signals to feed a 5i25's encoder inputs. The Z still 
comes from the old optical because it needs to mark zero degrees on the 
spindle. Then I put a notch in the speed knob that fitted the rollers of 
2 small micro switches, and made a sandwich out of a pair of half 
circles cut from .030 alu sheet with the microswitches between them and 
arranged to see that notch, sending a pair of "I'm in gear so and so" 
back to the 5i25.  Those face a mux4 which is used to both slow the 
motor to a crawl when neither switch is closed, and scale the SCALE from 
the ini file for feedback to the pid and video tach. I temporarily added 
some more hal to make me a scale reference, so the SCALE is scaled to 
the correct values regardless of which gear its in, and rigid tapping is 
correct in either gear.

That gives me an effective scale of a bit over 7000/rev in high gear, and 
something over 14000 in low gear. Quantization noise has vanished! I 
won't claim its silent, but I have to either look, or listen real 
carefully to make sure the spindle is turning. The 2 unused inputs to 
the mux4 are fed about a 25 motor rpm offset voltage by a setp in the 
hal file, and the speed response is so instant that I can reach up and 
change gears while running wide open since by the time the knob has been 
turned 3 degrees, the motor has slowed to a crawl, the flat faced gears 
change silently and are completely engaged by the time the other switch 
closes. 200 millisecs later the motor is back to top speed and the 
spindle is turning at either 1500, or 3000 revs.  All with zero 
possibility of damaging the gears.  And I can run a Pgain of about 20, 
even as high as 40, but thats overkill, in the spindle PID. Worst effect 
is that until Jon's servo amp regulates, making the motors magnetics 
chirp, I haven't a clue how hard the motor is actually 

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[John Dammeyer]

Thanks Jon,
 
I have lots of room under the pulley to mount something.  Steel disk with slots 
and a hall sensor would easily do it.  It's what I was going to do for simple 
RPM sensing into the Shumatch DRO with the reflective tape.  Another project 
that was never finished.
John
 

 
> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Elson [mailto:el...@pico-systems.com]
> Sent: July-17-19 6:22 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control
> 
> On 07/17/2019 03:51 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > There are a number of videos out there changing up the G0704 gear driven
> spindle to belt drive.  Some use toothed belts, others a double set of
> pulleys.  Most of the videos explain that they will soon but the slotted RPM
> sensor disk back on but for most of them they've not done that yet.
> >
> > For LinuxCNC what sort of encoder resolution is required on the spindle to
> be able to do tapping.  I know I can do it with one pulse per rev with my
> Electronic Lead Screw to cut nice threads but I also don't slow down the
> spindle at the end of a tap into a blind hole while tracking spindle speed.
> >
> Well, if you are using a software encoder counter, you have
> to limit the encoder count * RPM to what that counter can
> follow.  If using a hardware encoder counter, then that is
> not a limitation.
> On my Bridgeport, I am using the 81-tooth bull gear to
> create an encoder, so that gives 324 quadrature counts/rev.
> That has worked very well.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
>  <mailto:Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>  <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users> 
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[Jon Elson]

On 07/17/2019 03:51 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:

There are a number of videos out there changing up the G0704 gear driven 
spindle to belt drive.  Some use toothed belts, others a double set of pulleys. 
 Most of the videos explain that they will soon but the slotted RPM sensor disk 
back on but for most of them they've not done that yet.

For LinuxCNC what sort of encoder resolution is required on the spindle to be 
able to do tapping.  I know I can do it with one pulse per rev with my 
Electronic Lead Screw to cut nice threads but I also don't slow down the 
spindle at the end of a tap into a blind hole while tracking spindle speed.

Well, if you are using a software encoder counter, you have 
to limit the encoder count * RPM to what that counter can 
follow.  If using a hardware encoder counter, then that is 
not a limitation.
On my Bridgeport, I am using the 81-tooth bull gear to 
create an encoder, so that gives 324 quadrature counts/rev.  
That has worked very well.


Jon


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[andy pugh]

On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 at 21:53, John Dammeyer  wrote:

>
> The spindle pulley on my G3616 type mill has a tapered cone.  That also
> suggests I want to stay with V belts and just mount a slotted disk onto it
> rather than try to make a similar cone that holds toothed GT3 belts.
> There's room.  But how many slots?


This worked fine: https://youtu.be/ZhICrb0Tbn4?t=27
It's terribly out of focus, but looks like about 50?

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

[Emc-users] Spindle control

[John Dammeyer]

There are a number of videos out there changing up the G0704 gear driven 
spindle to belt drive.  Some use toothed belts, others a double set of pulleys. 
 Most of the videos explain that they will soon but the slotted RPM sensor disk 
back on but for most of them they've not done that yet.

For LinuxCNC what sort of encoder resolution is required on the spindle to be 
able to do tapping.  I know I can do it with one pulse per rev with my 
Electronic Lead Screw to cut nice threads but I also don't slow down the 
spindle at the end of a tap into a blind hole while tracking spindle speed.

My new 1.8kW AC Servo motor with a 2500 pulse per rev encoder can echo the 
encoder pulses out of the drive so if I used a 1:1 toothed belt I could use 
that.  But if I want stepped pulleys to give me extra torque at low speeds then 
I'm looking at V belts so I'll need an encoder on the spindle.

The spindle pulley on my G3616 type mill has a tapered cone.  That also 
suggests I want to stay with V belts and just mount a slotted disk onto it 
rather than try to make a similar cone that holds toothed GT3 belts.  There's 
room.  But how many slots?

Thanks
John Dammeyer




___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Fri, 5 Jul 2019, Andy Pugh wrote:


Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 23:57:52 +0100
From: Andy Pugh 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control




On 5 Jul 2019, at 19:41, Peter C. Wallace  wrote:

then net motions absolute speed command to the stepgens velocity command


Surely you would net the signed speed command to the stepgen and use the dir 
pin for VFD direction control?


Yeah, I was thinking of the 7I76 analog out that needs an usigned PWM value

(also you might need "foward" rather than "dir" since forward folds in the 
spindle enable)







___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.



___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[Andy Pugh]

> On 5 Jul 2019, at 19:41, Peter C. Wallace  wrote:
> 
> then net motions absolute speed command to the stepgens velocity command

Surely you would net the signed speed command to the stepgen and use the dir 
pin for VFD direction control? 




___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Fri, 5 Jul 2019, John Dammeyer wrote:


Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 11:21:38 -0700
From: John Dammeyer 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'" 
Subject: [Emc-users] Spindle Control

I have a small module (DC_06) from Homann Designs for generating the 0V to 10V 
voltage for spindle VFD from step pulses that range from 0Hz to 25kHz for 0% 
to 100% respectively .


Under MACH3 it's easy to use because one just clicks on the Ports and Pins 
menu entry and up comes the dialog with this section. 
http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/SpindleStep_Dir.jpg


With LinuxCNC it appears that there is only support (documented) for PWM to 
spindle speed.


What do I set up in the HAL and INI files so that S3000 creates 25kHz stepping 
pulses (100%) for3000 RPM and one of the outputs is set high/low for M3/M4?


Is the PWM module even required?

Thanks
John




You would need (for a parallel port) to add a stepgen component, set it into 
velocity mode and set the scaling so that a velocity command of 3000 gives you 
25 KHz (setp stepgen.N.position-scale 8.333 ) then net motions absolute speed 
command to the stepgens velocity command


for forward and reverse you net the desired parallel port pins to motions
spindle forward or reverse pins

For a Mesa card you basically do the same thing except you dont need to load a 
stepgen component, instead the firmware you are using must have a free hardware 
stepgen for the rate --> analog converter





___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.



___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

[Emc-users] Spindle Control

[John Dammeyer]

I have a small module  (DC_06) from Homann Designs for generating the 0V to 10V 
voltage for spindle VFD from step pulses that range from 0Hz to 25kHz for 0% to 
100% respectively .  

Under MACH3 it's easy to use because one just clicks on the Ports and Pins menu 
entry and up comes the dialog with this section.
http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/SpindleStep_Dir.jpg

With LinuxCNC it appears that there is only support (documented) for PWM to 
spindle speed.

What do I set up in the HAL and INI files so that S3000 creates 25kHz stepping 
pulses (100%) for3000 RPM and one of the outputs is set high/low for M3/M4?

Is the PWM module even required?  

Thanks
John




___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control panel breaks LinuxCNC?

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 29 June 2016 13:53:56 dan...@austin.rr.com wrote:

> Well the VFD does have a minimum speed. It won't run below that
> because of min speed and overheating.

And what IS that minimum speed?  In which case add that line to your .ini 
file but instead of 100, use that minimum speed instead AND TELL us what 
it is, and if that fixed it.

We aren't very good mind readers here Danny, but we do want to help, and 
that means answering the questions we ask.  I see Chris Morely is on the 
same trail I am, so please do as we ask and you'll be running days 
faster.

> I did see a freq of 300 (18k rpm) on the HAL while the VFD locked up.
>
> Also MDI'ed S18000 in while the VFD was locked up.
>
> Looks like the watchdog_out to the VFD is a problem here.
>
> Danny
>
>  Chris Morley  wrote:
> > Iirc Pressing axis spindle buttons sets the rpm to 1 rpm. Maybe this
> > is the problem. Some how that errors the vfd. Depending on what
> > version of lunuxcnc there is an INI switch to change that default
> > rpm.You should be able to test this by setting the rpm to 1 in the
> > MDI window. Worth a try.
> >
> > Chris M


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

--
Attend Shape: An AT Tech Expo July 15-16. Meet us at AT Park in San
Francisco, CA to explore cutting-edge tech and listen to tech luminaries
present their vision of the future. This family event has something for
everyone, including kids. Get more information and register today.
http://sdm.link/attshape
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control panel breaks LinuxCNC?

[dannym]

Well the VFD does have a minimum speed. It won't run below that because of min 
speed and overheating.  

I did see a freq of 300 (18k rpm) on the HAL while the VFD locked up. 

Also MDI'ed S18000 in while the VFD was locked up.

Looks like the watchdog_out to the VFD is a problem here.

Danny


 Chris Morley <chrisinnana...@hotmail.com> wrote: 
> 
> Iirc Pressing axis spindle buttons sets the rpm to 1 rpm. Maybe this is the 
> problem. Some how that errors the vfd. Depending on what version of lunuxcnc 
> there is an INI switch to change that default rpm.You should be able to test 
> this by setting the rpm to 1 in the MDI window.
> Worth a try.
> 
> Chris M
> 
> - Reply message -
> From: "dan...@austin.rr.com" <dan...@austin.rr.com>
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Subject: [Emc-users] Spindle control panel breaks LinuxCNC?
> Date: Wed, Jun 29, 2016 9:12 AM
> 
> 
> 
> It's every single time.  If I use M3, spindle runs 100% reliably.  Or, if I 
> use my XHC wireless mpg, that runs it fine too.
> 
> But on the Manual Control tab, there's a Spindle button with a CW button 
> flanking it on the right and a CCW button on the left and +/- buttons 
> underneath.  Hovering over the CW says "Spindle CW (F9)".  Clicking on that 
> results in no effect from the spindle, and the VFD will not respond to M3, 
> nothing can make it run.  It won't run g-code because spindle-at-speed will 
> never become true and that's required to be true for G1 moves.  That will 
> persist until the VFD power is cycled.  Rebooting LinuxCNC alone will have no 
> effect and it's not necessary to reboot LinuxCNC along with cycling VFD power.
> 
> This is weird.  The VFD is controlled by a complied .c, which has a limited 
> range of communication with the VFD, using a few regs.  LinuxCNC has to have 
> sent something that breaks the VFD communication but I'm not sure what it 
> could even send that would cause that failure that stores IN the VFD's states 
> rather than a state of LinuxCNC's code.  It has to be on the VFD's registers 
> because cycling VFD power is essential to recover, while restarting LinuxCNC 
> is irrelevant to recovery.
> 
> Danny
>  Gene Heskett <ghesk...@shentel.net> wrote:
> > On Wednesday 29 June 2016 01:42:47 Danny Miller wrote:
> >
> > > Well, I recreated it and confirmed cycling VFD power without rebooting
> > > LinuxCNC makes the spindle run again.
> > >
> > > I looked into the HAL after the "Spindle CW" button breaks everything:
> > > enable TRUE
> > > is_alarm FALSE
> > > is_at_speed FALSE
> > > is_ready TRUE
> > > is_running TRUE
> > > reverse FALSE
> > > run TRUE
> > > watchdog_out TRUE
> > >
> > > compared with actually having it running with M3:
> > > is_at_speed becomes TRUE (duh)
> > > watchdog_out is FALSE
> > >
> > > Well, that's odd.  IIRC the watchdog is not getting data back from the
> > > VFD in a timely fashion.  It is somehow locked up so that does seem
> > > consistent with the situation.  But no idea how it's getting locked
> > > up. The x200 VFD code sends a speed, dir, and run command and reads
> > > back the coils.
> > >
> > How often?  This is sounding as it it has some sort of an internal
> > watchdog that is not getting "petted".  This function is normally done
> > by an addf in your .hal file as one of the last addf's, often next in
> > line after the addf that updates the outputs each servo cycle.  That way
> > the watchdog gets petted even if the rest of the system is sitting idle
> > waiting for its slow human to tell it what to do next. :)
> >
> > For an older 5I25 card install, it looked like this in the .hal file:
> > addf   hm2_5i25.0.pet_watchdog   servo-thread# else he bites!
> >
> > Do a "sudo dmesg -c" which will clear dmesgs cache, then start lcnc and
> > stop it. send the next "sudo dmesg >filename 2>&1" and post it here as
> > an insert of that filename.  I also find that printing a copy for future
> > reference is also quite handy as you go about configuring a working
> > system.
> >
> > Point is, that if the setup has a watchdog, it should show up in that
> > dmesg listing, the whole thing is perhaps 60 lines in one of my machines
> > that uses a 5I25 card.  And its now part of the of the output write
> > function now done internal to the card when and output is written by the
> > driver. So it does not show up in my dmesg listing, and that line q

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control panel breaks LinuxCNC?

[dannym]

Entirely through Modbus, which otherwise works.  I started from the wj200_vfd.c 
code and made some changes to make an x200_vfd.c file.  Just changing a few 
coils.

Modbus starts from the OB RS232 serial port and goes through an isolationg 
RS232-RS485 converter.  Like I say, setup's been good, but this button breaks 
things.

Danny


 John Kasunich  wrote: 
> How is LinuxCNC connected to the VFD?
> 
> Direct hardware control, with an analog speed command and start/stop signals 
> from a parallel port?
> 
> Or serial communications using a HAL driver specific to that brand of VFD?
> 
> Or Modbus using the generic LinuxCNC HAL Modbus driver?
> 
> Or Ethernet using ??? driver?
> 
> That is critical information - I don't recall seeing it anywhere in this 
> email chain, but maybe I missed something in the first message or two.
> 
> The core of LinuxCNC (GUI and motion controller) doesn't communicate with
> the VFD at all.  LinuxCNC reads and writes to HAL pins, and those pins are
> connected to some driver that in turn talks to the drive.
> 
> So there are two things happening here:
> 
> 1) The core of LinuxCNC manipulates the HAL pins differently when you
> use M3 or the MPG compared to when you use the on-screen buttons.
> 
> 2) The driver and/or the VFD itself responds badly to the HAL pin activity
> from the on-screen buttons.
> 
> I think the first step is to figure out item 1.  Set up halscope to observe
> all the spindle-related HAL pins.  Capture and save shots of it working
> correctly when driven by M3 or the MPG.  Then capture it failing when
> driven by the on-screen button.  Study the screen pictures and figure
> out what is different.  Maybe the difference makes sense given the
> context, maybe it is a bug in the core of LinuxCNC.  Post your findings.
> 
> If the difference makes sense, then the problem is in the driver or the
> VFD.  If we know exactly what driver you are using and how it is 
> connected to the drive, and we know exactly what the HAL pins going
> into the driver are doing, maybe we can figure out what is wrong.
> 
> -- 
>   John Kasunich
>   jmkasun...@fastmail.fm
> 
> --
> Attend Shape: An AT Tech Expo July 15-16. Meet us at AT Park in San
> Francisco, CA to explore cutting-edge tech and listen to tech luminaries
> present their vision of the future. This family event has something for
> everyone, including kids. Get more information and register today.
> http://sdm.link/attshape
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


--
Attend Shape: An AT Tech Expo July 15-16. Meet us at AT Park in San
Francisco, CA to explore cutting-edge tech and listen to tech luminaries
present their vision of the future. This family event has something for
everyone, including kids. Get more information and register today.
http://sdm.link/attshape
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control panel breaks LinuxCNC?

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 29 June 2016 12:08:34 dan...@austin.rr.com wrote:

> It's every single time.  If I use M3, spindle runs 100% reliably.  Or,
> if I use my XHC wireless mpg, that runs it fine too.

What happens when you do an "S1 M3" from the mdi commaand line?
At this point I'd bet a cold bottle of suds the watchdog will bite.

The default fwd or rev value sent by clicking on the direction of 
rotation button may be being seen as a too slow, burn up the motor or 
itself trying to muster up enough current at that slow a phase angle, so 
it throws the watchdog bite and shuts down to protect both.

I have all my stuff set to start at 100 rpms but they are all brushed 
PMDC motors, so they can do that forever or until the brushes wear out.

This minimum is set, and its probably missing from your .ini file, with 
this statement:

DEFAULT_SPINDLE_SPEED = 100

in the [DISPLAY] section of your .ini file.

Look in the x200 manual and see what the minimum safe rpms are, and bear 
in mind that both the motor and the VFD are going to run hot at that 
speed, even without any load, so I would set that to a minimum of 125% 
of what the manual says.  You may find after giving it time to warm up, 
that even that is too slow for THAT motor. So run the speed on up by 
clicking on the + button to where the motors cooling fans can cool it 
down again, and let it run till its holding at as cool as its going to 
get, then slow it one click, let it run 10 or more minutes, if not too 
hot, slow it one more click, wash, rinse & repeat until after 10-15 
minutes your hand cannot touch it continuously and set that speed as the 
minimum.

> But on the Manual Control tab, there's a Spindle button with a CW
> button flanking it on the right and a CCW button on the left and +/-
> buttons underneath.  Hovering over the CW says "Spindle CW (F9)". 
> Clicking on that results in no effect from the spindle, and the VFD
> will not respond to M3, nothing can make it run.  It won't run g-code
> because spindle-at-speed will never become true and that's required to
> be true for G1 moves.  That will persist until the VFD power is
> cycled.  Rebooting LinuxCNC alone will have no effect and it's not
> necessary to reboot LinuxCNC along with cycling VFD power.
>
> This is weird.

No, its the clue I needed to pin down the watchdog bite. Same theory as 
the if it waddles like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably is a 
duck. :)

Note that in case that value also sets the step value on the plus and 
minus buttons, and the step change is way too much, the same effect 
could be obtained IF using a PID, by setting the plus and minus offsets 
fed to the PID.  But you may not be using a PID module in the spindle 
path since the VFD has a pretty good one internally.  2 of them critters 
in series can get "interesting" so I don't think its recommended.

> The VFD is controlled by a complied .c, which has a 
> limited range of communication with the VFD, using a few regs. 
> LinuxCNC has to have sent something that breaks the VFD communication
> but I'm not sure what it could even send that would cause that failure
> that stores IN the VFD's states rather than a state of LinuxCNC's
> code.  It has to be on the VFD's registers because cycling VFD power
> is essential to recover, while restarting LinuxCNC is irrelevant to
> recovery.

This also reads like it could violate the VFD's minimum speed ability.

> Danny

[...]

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

--
Attend Shape: An AT Tech Expo July 15-16. Meet us at AT Park in San
Francisco, CA to explore cutting-edge tech and listen to tech luminaries
present their vision of the future. This family event has something for
everyone, including kids. Get more information and register today.
http://sdm.link/attshape
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control panel breaks LinuxCNC?

[Chris Morley]

Iirc Pressing axis spindle buttons sets the rpm to 1 rpm. Maybe this is the 
problem. Some how that errors the vfd. Depending on what version of lunuxcnc 
there is an INI switch to change that default rpm.You should be able to test 
this by setting the rpm to 1 in the MDI window.
Worth a try.

Chris M

- Reply message -
From: "dan...@austin.rr.com" <dan...@austin.rr.com>
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: [Emc-users] Spindle control panel breaks LinuxCNC?
Date: Wed, Jun 29, 2016 9:12 AM



It's every single time.  If I use M3, spindle runs 100% reliably.  Or, if I use 
my XHC wireless mpg, that runs it fine too.

But on the Manual Control tab, there's a Spindle button with a CW button 
flanking it on the right and a CCW button on the left and +/- buttons 
underneath.  Hovering over the CW says "Spindle CW (F9)".  Clicking on that 
results in no effect from the spindle, and the VFD will not respond to M3, 
nothing can make it run.  It won't run g-code because spindle-at-speed will 
never become true and that's required to be true for G1 moves.  That will 
persist until the VFD power is cycled.  Rebooting LinuxCNC alone will have no 
effect and it's not necessary to reboot LinuxCNC along with cycling VFD power.

This is weird.  The VFD is controlled by a complied .c, which has a limited 
range of communication with the VFD, using a few regs.  LinuxCNC has to have 
sent something that breaks the VFD communication but I'm not sure what it could 
even send that would cause that failure that stores IN the VFD's states rather 
than a state of LinuxCNC's code.  It has to be on the VFD's registers because 
cycling VFD power is essential to recover, while restarting LinuxCNC is 
irrelevant to recovery.

Danny
 Gene Heskett <ghesk...@shentel.net> wrote:
> On Wednesday 29 June 2016 01:42:47 Danny Miller wrote:
>
> > Well, I recreated it and confirmed cycling VFD power without rebooting
> > LinuxCNC makes the spindle run again.
> >
> > I looked into the HAL after the "Spindle CW" button breaks everything:
> > enable TRUE
> > is_alarm FALSE
> > is_at_speed FALSE
> > is_ready TRUE
> > is_running TRUE
> > reverse FALSE
> > run TRUE
> > watchdog_out TRUE
> >
> > compared with actually having it running with M3:
> > is_at_speed becomes TRUE (duh)
> > watchdog_out is FALSE
> >
> > Well, that's odd.  IIRC the watchdog is not getting data back from the
> > VFD in a timely fashion.  It is somehow locked up so that does seem
> > consistent with the situation.  But no idea how it's getting locked
> > up. The x200 VFD code sends a speed, dir, and run command and reads
> > back the coils.
> >
> How often?  This is sounding as it it has some sort of an internal
> watchdog that is not getting "petted".  This function is normally done
> by an addf in your .hal file as one of the last addf's, often next in
> line after the addf that updates the outputs each servo cycle.  That way
> the watchdog gets petted even if the rest of the system is sitting idle
> waiting for its slow human to tell it what to do next. :)
>
> For an older 5I25 card install, it looked like this in the .hal file:
> addf   hm2_5i25.0.pet_watchdog   servo-thread# else he bites!
>
> Do a "sudo dmesg -c" which will clear dmesgs cache, then start lcnc and
> stop it. send the next "sudo dmesg >filename 2>&1" and post it here as
> an insert of that filename.  I also find that printing a copy for future
> reference is also quite handy as you go about configuring a working
> system.
>
> Point is, that if the setup has a watchdog, it should show up in that
> dmesg listing, the whole thing is perhaps 60 lines in one of my machines
> that uses a 5I25 card.  And its now part of the of the output write
> function now done internal to the card when and output is written by the
> driver. So it does not show up in my dmesg listing, and that line quoted
> above now has a #in front of the addf.
>
> Check the docs you have on this x200 vfd for any mention of a watchdog.
> That should define how to "pet" it to keep it from barking.
>
> OTOH, I do't have an x200 VFD, and its possible that it does not report
> its presence when the program is run. In which case see the docs for the
> x200.
> >
> > Danny
> >
> > On 6/16/2016 11:04 AM, dan...@austin.rr.com wrote:
> > > It's modbus, sorry forgot to mention that.
> > >
> > > What baffles me is the Spindle buttons on the panel, AFAIK, just map
> > > to the same spindle-run in the HAL that M3 goes to.  I remember
> > > looking at the HAL monitor on this weeks ago and IIRC it 

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control panel breaks LinuxCNC?

[andy pugh]

On 29 June 2016 at 17:08,   wrote:

> This is weird.  The VFD is controlled by a complied .c, which has a limited 
> range of communication with the VFD, using a few regs.

How does the component get its spindle speed commands? I assume
through the HAL pins?

The diffeerence I see is that the Axis GUI sets motion.spindle-out to
1 and sets spindle-on and spindle-fwd to true as soon as you press the
"fwd" button.
An M3 command will set a much higher initial speed.

Perhaps the VFD faults with such a small speed command?

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

--
Attend Shape: An AT Tech Expo July 15-16. Meet us at AT Park in San
Francisco, CA to explore cutting-edge tech and listen to tech luminaries
present their vision of the future. This family event has something for
everyone, including kids. Get more information and register today.
http://sdm.link/attshape
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control panel breaks LinuxCNC?

[John Kasunich]

How is LinuxCNC connected to the VFD?

Direct hardware control, with an analog speed command and start/stop signals 
from a parallel port?

Or serial communications using a HAL driver specific to that brand of VFD?

Or Modbus using the generic LinuxCNC HAL Modbus driver?

Or Ethernet using ??? driver?

That is critical information - I don't recall seeing it anywhere in this 
email chain, but maybe I missed something in the first message or two.

The core of LinuxCNC (GUI and motion controller) doesn't communicate with
the VFD at all.  LinuxCNC reads and writes to HAL pins, and those pins are
connected to some driver that in turn talks to the drive.

So there are two things happening here:

1) The core of LinuxCNC manipulates the HAL pins differently when you
use M3 or the MPG compared to when you use the on-screen buttons.

2) The driver and/or the VFD itself responds badly to the HAL pin activity
from the on-screen buttons.

I think the first step is to figure out item 1.  Set up halscope to observe
all the spindle-related HAL pins.  Capture and save shots of it working
correctly when driven by M3 or the MPG.  Then capture it failing when
driven by the on-screen button.  Study the screen pictures and figure
out what is different.  Maybe the difference makes sense given the
context, maybe it is a bug in the core of LinuxCNC.  Post your findings.

If the difference makes sense, then the problem is in the driver or the
VFD.  If we know exactly what driver you are using and how it is 
connected to the drive, and we know exactly what the HAL pins going
into the driver are doing, maybe we can figure out what is wrong.

-- 
  John Kasunich
  jmkasun...@fastmail.fm

--
Attend Shape: An AT Tech Expo July 15-16. Meet us at AT Park in San
Francisco, CA to explore cutting-edge tech and listen to tech luminaries
present their vision of the future. This family event has something for
everyone, including kids. Get more information and register today.
http://sdm.link/attshape
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control panel breaks LinuxCNC?

[dannym]

It's every single time.  If I use M3, spindle runs 100% reliably.  Or, if I use 
my XHC wireless mpg, that runs it fine too.

But on the Manual Control tab, there's a Spindle button with a CW button 
flanking it on the right and a CCW button on the left and +/- buttons 
underneath.  Hovering over the CW says "Spindle CW (F9)".  Clicking on that 
results in no effect from the spindle, and the VFD will not respond to M3, 
nothing can make it run.  It won't run g-code because spindle-at-speed will 
never become true and that's required to be true for G1 moves.  That will 
persist until the VFD power is cycled.  Rebooting LinuxCNC alone will have no 
effect and it's not necessary to reboot LinuxCNC along with cycling VFD power.

This is weird.  The VFD is controlled by a complied .c, which has a limited 
range of communication with the VFD, using a few regs.  LinuxCNC has to have 
sent something that breaks the VFD communication but I'm not sure what it could 
even send that would cause that failure that stores IN the VFD's states rather 
than a state of LinuxCNC's code.  It has to be on the VFD's registers because 
cycling VFD power is essential to recover, while restarting LinuxCNC is 
irrelevant to recovery.

Danny
 Gene Heskett  wrote: 
> On Wednesday 29 June 2016 01:42:47 Danny Miller wrote:
> 
> > Well, I recreated it and confirmed cycling VFD power without rebooting
> > LinuxCNC makes the spindle run again.
> >
> > I looked into the HAL after the "Spindle CW" button breaks everything:
> > enable TRUE
> > is_alarm FALSE
> > is_at_speed FALSE
> > is_ready TRUE
> > is_running TRUE
> > reverse FALSE
> > run TRUE
> > watchdog_out TRUE
> >
> > compared with actually having it running with M3:
> > is_at_speed becomes TRUE (duh)
> > watchdog_out is FALSE
> >
> > Well, that's odd.  IIRC the watchdog is not getting data back from the
> > VFD in a timely fashion.  It is somehow locked up so that does seem
> > consistent with the situation.  But no idea how it's getting locked
> > up. The x200 VFD code sends a speed, dir, and run command and reads
> > back the coils.
> >
> How often?  This is sounding as it it has some sort of an internal 
> watchdog that is not getting "petted".  This function is normally done 
> by an addf in your .hal file as one of the last addf's, often next in 
> line after the addf that updates the outputs each servo cycle.  That way 
> the watchdog gets petted even if the rest of the system is sitting idle 
> waiting for its slow human to tell it what to do next. :)
> 
> For an older 5I25 card install, it looked like this in the .hal file:
> addf   hm2_5i25.0.pet_watchdog   servo-thread# else he bites!
> 
> Do a "sudo dmesg -c" which will clear dmesgs cache, then start lcnc and 
> stop it. send the next "sudo dmesg >filename 2>&1" and post it here as 
> an insert of that filename.  I also find that printing a copy for future 
> reference is also quite handy as you go about configuring a working 
> system.
> 
> Point is, that if the setup has a watchdog, it should show up in that 
> dmesg listing, the whole thing is perhaps 60 lines in one of my machines 
> that uses a 5I25 card.  And its now part of the of the output write 
> function now done internal to the card when and output is written by the 
> driver. So it does not show up in my dmesg listing, and that line quoted 
> above now has a #in front of the addf.
> 
> Check the docs you have on this x200 vfd for any mention of a watchdog.  
> That should define how to "pet" it to keep it from barking.
> 
> OTOH, I do't have an x200 VFD, and its possible that it does not report 
> its presence when the program is run. In which case see the docs for the 
> x200.
> >
> > Danny
> >
> > On 6/16/2016 11:04 AM, dan...@austin.rr.com wrote:
> > > It's modbus, sorry forgot to mention that.
> > >
> > > What baffles me is the Spindle buttons on the panel, AFAIK, just map
> > > to the same spindle-run in the HAL that M3 goes to.  I remember
> > > looking at the HAL monitor on this weeks ago and IIRC it was
> > > "spindle run true, but spindle-isrunning false".  The spindle isn't
> > > moving at all.  I'll recheck the HAL and take proper notes.
> > >
> > > And like I say, the VFD won't run again even if you reboot LinuxCNC.
> > >  It will run if I cycle power on the VFD.  So, it's like it sent a
> > > toxic command to the VFD that changed a reg to something unusable. 
> > > I did make that x200_vfd.c from the WJ200_vfd.c VFD code, but it
> > > wasn't a major change, and it's simple, there's a run command,
> > > cw/ccw command (I made it so CCW just turns into CW), rpm command,
> > > and reads is-running-at-speed and an error bit.
> > >
> > > It don't see where it could deliver something to de-configure the
> > > VFD, nor why the Spindle panel buttons would do something different
> > > through the HAL than you'd get by MDI M3.
> > >
> > > Danny
> > >
> > >  andy pugh  wrote:
> > >> On 16 June 2016 at 

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control panel breaks LinuxCNC?

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 29 June 2016 01:42:47 Danny Miller wrote:

> Well, I recreated it and confirmed cycling VFD power without rebooting
> LinuxCNC makes the spindle run again.
>
> I looked into the HAL after the "Spindle CW" button breaks everything:
> enable TRUE
> is_alarm FALSE
> is_at_speed FALSE
> is_ready TRUE
> is_running TRUE
> reverse FALSE
> run TRUE
> watchdog_out TRUE
>
> compared with actually having it running with M3:
> is_at_speed becomes TRUE (duh)
> watchdog_out is FALSE
>
> Well, that's odd.  IIRC the watchdog is not getting data back from the
> VFD in a timely fashion.  It is somehow locked up so that does seem
> consistent with the situation.  But no idea how it's getting locked
> up. The x200 VFD code sends a speed, dir, and run command and reads
> back the coils.
>
How often?  This is sounding as it it has some sort of an internal 
watchdog that is not getting "petted".  This function is normally done 
by an addf in your .hal file as one of the last addf's, often next in 
line after the addf that updates the outputs each servo cycle.  That way 
the watchdog gets petted even if the rest of the system is sitting idle 
waiting for its slow human to tell it what to do next. :)

For an older 5I25 card install, it looked like this in the .hal file:
addf   hm2_5i25.0.pet_watchdog   servo-thread# else he bites!

Do a "sudo dmesg -c" which will clear dmesgs cache, then start lcnc and 
stop it. send the next "sudo dmesg >filename 2>&1" and post it here as 
an insert of that filename.  I also find that printing a copy for future 
reference is also quite handy as you go about configuring a working 
system.

Point is, that if the setup has a watchdog, it should show up in that 
dmesg listing, the whole thing is perhaps 60 lines in one of my machines 
that uses a 5I25 card.  And its now part of the of the output write 
function now done internal to the card when and output is written by the 
driver. So it does not show up in my dmesg listing, and that line quoted 
above now has a #in front of the addf.

Check the docs you have on this x200 vfd for any mention of a watchdog.  
That should define how to "pet" it to keep it from barking.

OTOH, I do't have an x200 VFD, and its possible that it does not report 
its presence when the program is run. In which case see the docs for the 
x200.
>
> Danny
>
> On 6/16/2016 11:04 AM, dan...@austin.rr.com wrote:
> > It's modbus, sorry forgot to mention that.
> >
> > What baffles me is the Spindle buttons on the panel, AFAIK, just map
> > to the same spindle-run in the HAL that M3 goes to.  I remember
> > looking at the HAL monitor on this weeks ago and IIRC it was
> > "spindle run true, but spindle-isrunning false".  The spindle isn't
> > moving at all.  I'll recheck the HAL and take proper notes.
> >
> > And like I say, the VFD won't run again even if you reboot LinuxCNC.
> >  It will run if I cycle power on the VFD.  So, it's like it sent a
> > toxic command to the VFD that changed a reg to something unusable. 
> > I did make that x200_vfd.c from the WJ200_vfd.c VFD code, but it
> > wasn't a major change, and it's simple, there's a run command,
> > cw/ccw command (I made it so CCW just turns into CW), rpm command,
> > and reads is-running-at-speed and an error bit.
> >
> > It don't see where it could deliver something to de-configure the
> > VFD, nor why the Spindle panel buttons would do something different
> > through the HAL than you'd get by MDI M3.
> >
> > Danny
> >
> >  andy pugh  wrote:
> >> On 16 June 2016 at 07:57, Danny Miller 
> >> wrote: My MPG's "spindle" button works.
> >>
> >> On the default panel, ...  Clicking any of that doesn't make the
> >> spindle go,
> >>
> >> It's not JUST that.  Once you click on any of that, the VFD *will
> >> never run again* until power is cycled.
> >
> > How fascinating..
> > Can we see your HAL files?
> >
> > Is the spindle controlled by Modbus or DC voltage? What hardware?
>
> --
> Attend Shape: An AT Tech Expo July 15-16. Meet us at AT
> Park in San Francisco, CA to explore cutting-edge tech and listen to
> tech luminaries present their vision of the future. This family event
> has something for everyone, including kids. Get more information and
> register today. http://sdm.link/attshape
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

--
Attend Shape: An AT Tech Expo July 15-16. Meet us at AT Park in San
Francisco, CA to explore cutting-edge tech and listen to tech luminaries
present 

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control panel breaks LinuxCNC?

[andy pugh]

On 29 June 2016 at 06:42, Danny Miller  wrote:
> compared with actually having it running with M3:
> is_at_speed becomes TRUE (duh)

Do you have the motion.spindle-at-speed pin connected up? Perhaps this
is what is preventing machine movement?

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

--
Attend Shape: An AT Tech Expo July 15-16. Meet us at AT Park in San
Francisco, CA to explore cutting-edge tech and listen to tech luminaries
present their vision of the future. This family event has something for
everyone, including kids. Get more information and register today.
http://sdm.link/attshape
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control panel breaks LinuxCNC?

[Danny Miller]

Well, I recreated it and confirmed cycling VFD power without rebooting 
LinuxCNC makes the spindle run again.

I looked into the HAL after the "Spindle CW" button breaks everything:
enable TRUE
is_alarm FALSE
is_at_speed FALSE
is_ready TRUE
is_running TRUE
reverse FALSE
run TRUE
watchdog_out TRUE

compared with actually having it running with M3:
is_at_speed becomes TRUE (duh)
watchdog_out is FALSE

Well, that's odd.  IIRC the watchdog is not getting data back from the 
VFD in a timely fashion.  It is somehow locked up so that does seem 
consistent with the situation.  But no idea how it's getting locked up.  
The x200 VFD code sends a speed, dir, and run command and reads back the 
coils.



Danny

On 6/16/2016 11:04 AM, dan...@austin.rr.com wrote:
> It's modbus, sorry forgot to mention that.
>
> What baffles me is the Spindle buttons on the panel, AFAIK, just map to the 
> same spindle-run in the HAL that M3 goes to.  I remember looking at the HAL 
> monitor on this weeks ago and IIRC it was "spindle run true, but 
> spindle-isrunning false".  The spindle isn't moving at all.  I'll recheck the 
> HAL and take proper notes.
>
> And like I say, the VFD won't run again even if you reboot LinuxCNC.  It will 
> run if I cycle power on the VFD.  So, it's like it sent a toxic command to 
> the VFD that changed a reg to something unusable.  I did make that x200_vfd.c 
> from the WJ200_vfd.c VFD code, but it wasn't a major change, and it's simple, 
> there's a run command, cw/ccw command (I made it so CCW just turns into CW), 
> rpm command, and reads is-running-at-speed and an error bit.
>
> It don't see where it could deliver something to de-configure the VFD, nor 
> why the Spindle panel buttons would do something different through the HAL 
> than you'd get by MDI M3.
>
> Danny
>
>
>  andy pugh  wrote:
>> On 16 June 2016 at 07:57, Danny Miller  wrote:
>>   My MPG's "spindle" button works.
>>
>> On the default panel, ...  Clicking any of that doesn't make the spindle go,
>>
>> It's not JUST that.  Once you click on any of that, the VFD *will never
>> run again* until power is cycled.
> How fascinating..
> Can we see your HAL files?
>
> Is the spindle controlled by Modbus or DC voltage? What hardware?
>


--
Attend Shape: An AT Tech Expo July 15-16. Meet us at AT Park in San
Francisco, CA to explore cutting-edge tech and listen to tech luminaries
present their vision of the future. This family event has something for
everyone, including kids. Get more information and register today.
http://sdm.link/attshape
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control panel breaks LinuxCNC?

[dannym]

It's modbus, sorry forgot to mention that.

What baffles me is the Spindle buttons on the panel, AFAIK, just map to the 
same spindle-run in the HAL that M3 goes to.  I remember looking at the HAL 
monitor on this weeks ago and IIRC it was "spindle run true, but 
spindle-isrunning false".  The spindle isn't moving at all.  I'll recheck the 
HAL and take proper notes.

And like I say, the VFD won't run again even if you reboot LinuxCNC.  It will 
run if I cycle power on the VFD.  So, it's like it sent a toxic command to the 
VFD that changed a reg to something unusable.  I did make that x200_vfd.c from 
the WJ200_vfd.c VFD code, but it wasn't a major change, and it's simple, 
there's a run command, cw/ccw command (I made it so CCW just turns into CW), 
rpm command, and reads is-running-at-speed and an error bit.  

It don't see where it could deliver something to de-configure the VFD, nor why 
the Spindle panel buttons would do something different through the HAL than 
you'd get by MDI M3.

Danny


 andy pugh  wrote: 
> On 16 June 2016 at 07:57, Danny Miller  wrote:
>  My MPG's "spindle" button works.
>
> On the default panel, ...  Clicking any of that doesn't make the spindle go,
>
> It's not JUST that.  Once you click on any of that, the VFD *will never
> run again* until power is cycled.

How fascinating..
Can we see your HAL files?

Is the spindle controlled by Modbus or DC voltage? What hardware?

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

--
What NetFlow Analyzer can do for you? Monitors network bandwidth and traffic
patterns at an interface-level. Reveals which users, apps, and protocols are 
consuming the most bandwidth. Provides multi-vendor support for NetFlow, 
J-Flow, sFlow and other flows. Make informed decisions using capacity planning
reports. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=1444514421=/41014381
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



--
What NetFlow Analyzer can do for you? Monitors network bandwidth and traffic
patterns at an interface-level. Reveals which users, apps, and protocols are 
consuming the most bandwidth. Provides multi-vendor support for NetFlow, 
J-Flow, sFlow and other flows. Make informed decisions using capacity planning
reports. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=1444514421=/41014381
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control panel breaks LinuxCNC?

[Sarah Armstrong]

very difficult without a crystal ball
you'll need to post your complete config folder as an archive somewhere ,
not just snips .
so we can mimick your installation .

it could be you have the spindle enable reversed in hardware , hence it
works but not from the gui . ( easily done )
use the hal configuration watch windows and make sure you have them working
in the correct sense  true / false etc



On 16 June 2016 at 10:16, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Thursday 16 June 2016 02:57:46 Danny Miller wrote:
>
> > I have an X200 VFD.  M3,M5,S18000 work fine, from MDI or code. My
> > MPG's "spindle" button works.
> >
> > On the default panel, there's a "Spindle" button flanked with a CW/CCW
> > indicator.  Clicking any of that doesn't make the spindle go, even
> > with "S" set to a valid RPM.
> >
> >
> > It's not JUST that.  Once you click on any of that, the VFD *will
> > never run again* until power is cycled.
> >
> >
> > Any idea why this is?  It's a pretty serious problem because others
> > are using this machine.
> >
> >
> > Danny
>
> People here, smarter than me on vfd's will have to see your .ini and .hal
> files.  There are several pastebin type sites around, so pick one that
> isn't passwd protected, and set a 15 day expire so it doesn't hang
> around long after that copy has been fixed.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
>
>
> --
> What NetFlow Analyzer can do for you? Monitors network bandwidth and
> traffic
> patterns at an interface-level. Reveals which users, apps, and protocols
> are
> consuming the most bandwidth. Provides multi-vendor support for NetFlow,
> J-Flow, sFlow and other flows. Make informed decisions using capacity
> planning
> reports.
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=1444514421=/41014381
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>



-- 

The information contained in this message is confidential and is intended
for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there
are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised
use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly
forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses
prior to leaving the RcTechnix network. RcTechnix will not be liable for
direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration
of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any
virus being passed on.

RcTechnix reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages being
sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or
detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring effective
operation.

(c) RcTechnix
--
What NetFlow Analyzer can do for you? Monitors network bandwidth and traffic
patterns at an interface-level. Reveals which users, apps, and protocols are 
consuming the most bandwidth. Provides multi-vendor support for NetFlow, 
J-Flow, sFlow and other flows. Make informed decisions using capacity planning
reports. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=1444514421=/41014381
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control panel breaks LinuxCNC?

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 16 June 2016 02:57:46 Danny Miller wrote:

> I have an X200 VFD.  M3,M5,S18000 work fine, from MDI or code. My
> MPG's "spindle" button works.
>
> On the default panel, there's a "Spindle" button flanked with a CW/CCW
> indicator.  Clicking any of that doesn't make the spindle go, even
> with "S" set to a valid RPM.
>
>
> It's not JUST that.  Once you click on any of that, the VFD *will
> never run again* until power is cycled.
>
>
> Any idea why this is?  It's a pretty serious problem because others
> are using this machine.
>
>
> Danny

People here, smarter than me on vfd's will have to see your .ini and .hal 
files.  There are several pastebin type sites around, so pick one that 
isn't passwd protected, and set a 15 day expire so it doesn't hang 
around long after that copy has been fixed.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

--
What NetFlow Analyzer can do for you? Monitors network bandwidth and traffic
patterns at an interface-level. Reveals which users, apps, and protocols are 
consuming the most bandwidth. Provides multi-vendor support for NetFlow, 
J-Flow, sFlow and other flows. Make informed decisions using capacity planning
reports. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=1444514421=/41014381
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control panel breaks LinuxCNC?

[andy pugh]

On 16 June 2016 at 07:57, Danny Miller  wrote:
>  My MPG's "spindle" button works.
>
> On the default panel, ...  Clicking any of that doesn't make the spindle go,
>
> It's not JUST that.  Once you click on any of that, the VFD *will never
> run again* until power is cycled.

How fascinating..
Can we see your HAL files?

Is the spindle controlled by Modbus or DC voltage? What hardware?

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

--
What NetFlow Analyzer can do for you? Monitors network bandwidth and traffic
patterns at an interface-level. Reveals which users, apps, and protocols are 
consuming the most bandwidth. Provides multi-vendor support for NetFlow, 
J-Flow, sFlow and other flows. Make informed decisions using capacity planning
reports. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=1444514421=/41014381
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

[Emc-users] Spindle control panel breaks LinuxCNC?

[Danny Miller]

I have an X200 VFD.  M3,M5,S18000 work fine, from MDI or code. My MPG's 
"spindle" button works.

On the default panel, there's a "Spindle" button flanked with a CW/CCW 
indicator.  Clicking any of that doesn't make the spindle go, even with 
"S" set to a valid RPM.


It's not JUST that.  Once you click on any of that, the VFD *will never 
run again* until power is cycled.


Any idea why this is?  It's a pretty serious problem because others are 
using this machine.


Danny


--
What NetFlow Analyzer can do for you? Monitors network bandwidth and traffic
patterns at an interface-level. Reveals which users, apps, and protocols are 
consuming the most bandwidth. Provides multi-vendor support for NetFlow, 
J-Flow, sFlow and other flows. Make informed decisions using capacity planning
reports. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=1444514421=/41014381
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 30 December 2015 11:17:45 andy pugh wrote:

> On 30 December 2015 at 15:37, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > IIRC, this spindle-at-speed thing is only effective when its called
> > for by the g-code command that needs it, such as in a G76 or G33.1.
>
> No, if the pin is wired (it defaults to permanently true) then the
> behaviour is as-documented.
>
Ah, thanks for the correction Andy.

> "motion.spindle-at-speed" Motion will pause until this pin is TRUE,
> under the following conditions: before the first feed move after each
> spindle start or speed change; before the start of every chain of
> spindle-synchronized moves; and if in CSS mode, at every rapid->feed
> transition.
>
> ie, any feed move after a spindle speed change will pause until the
> spindle is at the new speed.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

--
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[andy pugh]

On 30 December 2015 at 15:37, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> IIRC, this spindle-at-speed thing is only effective when its called for
> by the g-code command that needs it, such as in a G76 or G33.1.

No, if the pin is wired (it defaults to permanently true) then the
behaviour is as-documented.

"motion.spindle-at-speed" Motion will pause until this pin is TRUE,
under the following conditions: before the first feed move after each
spindle start or speed change; before the start of every chain of
spindle-synchronized moves; and if in CSS mode, at every rapid->feed
transition.

ie, any feed move after a spindle speed change will pause until the
spindle is at the new speed.

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

--
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 30 December 2015 09:37:13 lloyd wilson wrote:

> The at-speed signal on my inverter (the infamous Huanyang), stays
> false when the spindle-on signal is false. Ergo, a simple connection
> to the motion component would inhibit jogging unless the spindle is
> running. If I want to utilize a wait-for-spindle function, I guess
> I'll need to cobble up some logic so that the signal is forced active
> unless a spindle-on command is in place.
>
> Thanks for the responses
>
> -ldw
>
IIRC, this spindle-at-speed thing is only effective when its called for 
by the g-code command that needs it, such as in a G76 or G33.1. There 
may be other "canned" gcodes that use it but if its active, I sure 
haven't noted it.  For the rest of the canned stuff, the spindle starts 
and is not stopped until the canned operation is completed.  Or you hit 
the ESC key to bail out of course. 

In fact, I'm not sure it even applies to G76 as the only pause once the 
retrace move is complete, is waiting for the index pulse so it can start 
the next cut in time with the previous cuts. Its only function in G76 is 
to verify the spindle is running before it starts the first cut.  After 
it starts the first cut, I believe g76 is on its own. If a heavy thread 
that does slow the spindle is being done, the locking is maintained.

I believe this is also true of the G33.1, which I usually drive with a 
wrapper that pecks the thread 1/4 to 1/2 turn deeper each peck. I 
usually have a pause before starting each new peck so I can blow the tap 
clean and put another drop of buttercutt or similar on it before it 
starts back into the hole.

It doesn't interfere with normal jogging, or shouldn't unless your .hal 
file is miss-configured.

> On 12/29/2015 11:35 AM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> > That is fine if he has spindle feed back, but if not, then the best
> > option is to use the at speed output from his VFD.
> >
> > All you need to do is net the input pin motion.spindle-at-speed to
> > the signal from your VFD, it is that simple.  So if your VFD signal
> > is connected to the parallel port pin #15, the line in your hal file
> > would be: net spindle_at_speed <= parport.0.pin-15-in =>
> > motion.spindle-at-speed
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Sarah Armstrong" <sarahj.armstron...@gmail.com>
> > To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> > <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015
> > 10:19:18 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control
> >
> > arh ,
> > if i'm reading correctly , you wish to use an external output form
> > your vfd to trigger ? , hence an input pin
> >
> > the spindle at speed signal is internally generated within linuxcnc
> > , using the spindle rpm encoder
> > so therfore does not need an input from the vfd directly to use . so
> > long as your spindle speed rpm is correct or within bounds of a few
> > rpm it will work fine ,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 29 December 2015 at 15:11, Sarah Armstrong
> > <sarahj.armstron...@gmail.com>
> >
> > wrote:
> >> you can use stepconf to produce a configuration ,
> >> you usually see a
> >> sets spindle-at-speed true , this overides the spindle at speed
> >> it may be in your postgui.hal file .
> >> comment it out and you should be ok
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 29 December 2015 at 14:59, lloyd wilson
> >> <llwilso...@rochester.rr.com>
> >>
> >> wrote:
> >>> I'm trying to add a pyvcp panel to control a spindle vfd. To take
> >>> advantage of the 'at-speed' signal from the vfd to inhibit motion
> >>> until ready, the motion component of LCNC needs to be aware of the
> >>> spindle command state- from the documentation:
> >>>
> >>> *motion.spindle-at-speed* IN BIT
> >>>
> >>> Motion will pause until this pin is TRUE, under the following
> >>> conditions: before the first feed move after each spindle start or
> >>> speed change; before the start of every chain of
> >>> spindle-synchronized moves; and if in CSS mode, at every
> >>> rapid->feed transition.
> >>>
> >>> but I can't find a reference to HAL input pins for spindle control
> >>> in the motion control component documentation. Is that
> >>> communication done by other methods (NML??- gasp!).
> >>>
> >>> Can someone point me to a sample configuration that properly
> >>> integrates an 'at-speed' signal into LCNC?
> >>>
> &

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[lloyd wilson]

The at-speed signal on my inverter (the infamous Huanyang), stays false 
when the spindle-on signal is false. Ergo, a simple connection to the 
motion component would inhibit jogging unless the spindle is running. If 
I want to utilize a wait-for-spindle function, I guess I'll need to 
cobble up some logic so that the signal is forced active unless a 
spindle-on command is in place.

Thanks for the responses

-ldw
On 12/29/2015 11:35 AM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> That is fine if he has spindle feed back, but if not, then the best option is 
> to use the at speed output from his VFD.
>
> All you need to do is net the input pin motion.spindle-at-speed to the signal 
> from your VFD, it is that simple.  So if your VFD signal is connected to the 
> parallel port pin #15, the line in your hal file would be:
> net spindle_at_speed <= parport.0.pin-15-in => motion.spindle-at-speed
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Sarah Armstrong" <sarahj.armstron...@gmail.com>
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 10:19:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control
>
> arh ,
> if i'm reading correctly , you wish to use an external output form your vfd
> to trigger ? , hence an input pin
>
> the spindle at speed signal is internally generated within linuxcnc , using
> the spindle rpm encoder
> so therfore does not need an input from the vfd directly to use . so long
> as your spindle speed rpm is correct or within bounds of a few rpm
> it will work fine ,
>
>
>
>
> On 29 December 2015 at 15:11, Sarah Armstrong <sarahj.armstron...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> you can use stepconf to produce a configuration ,
>> you usually see a
>> sets spindle-at-speed true , this overides the spindle at speed
>> it may be in your postgui.hal file .
>> comment it out and you should be ok
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 29 December 2015 at 14:59, lloyd wilson <llwilso...@rochester.rr.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm trying to add a pyvcp panel to control a spindle vfd. To take
>>> advantage of the 'at-speed' signal from the vfd to inhibit motion until
>>> ready, the motion component of LCNC needs to be aware of the spindle
>>> command state- from the documentation:
>>>
>>> *motion.spindle-at-speed* IN BIT
>>>
>>> Motion will pause until this pin is TRUE, under the following
>>> conditions: before the first feed move after each spindle start or speed
>>> change; before the start of every chain of spindle-synchronized moves;
>>> and if in CSS mode, at every rapid->feed transition.
>>>
>>> but I can't find a reference to HAL input pins for spindle control in
>>> the motion control component documentation. Is that communication done
>>> by other methods (NML??- gasp!).
>>>
>>> Can someone point me to a sample configuration that properly integrates
>>> an 'at-speed' signal into LCNC?
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance
>>>
>>> -ldw
>>>
>>> --
>>> ___
>>> Emc-users mailing list
>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> The information contained in this message is confidential and is intended
>> for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there
>> are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised
>> use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly
>> forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses
>> prior to leaving the RcTechnix network. RcTechnix will not be liable for
>> direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration
>> of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any
>> virus being passed on.
>>
>> RcTechnix reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages being
>> sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or
>> detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring effective
>> operation.
>>
>> (c) RcTechnix
>>
>
>


--
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[Todd Zuercher]

That is fine if he has spindle feed back, but if not, then the best option is 
to use the at speed output from his VFD.

All you need to do is net the input pin motion.spindle-at-speed to the signal 
from your VFD, it is that simple.  So if your VFD signal is connected to the 
parallel port pin #15, the line in your hal file would be:
net spindle_at_speed <= parport.0.pin-15-in => motion.spindle-at-speed

- Original Message -
From: "Sarah Armstrong" <sarahj.armstron...@gmail.com>
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 10:19:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

arh ,
if i'm reading correctly , you wish to use an external output form your vfd
to trigger ? , hence an input pin

the spindle at speed signal is internally generated within linuxcnc , using
the spindle rpm encoder
so therfore does not need an input from the vfd directly to use . so long
as your spindle speed rpm is correct or within bounds of a few rpm
it will work fine ,




On 29 December 2015 at 15:11, Sarah Armstrong <sarahj.armstron...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> you can use stepconf to produce a configuration ,
> you usually see a
> sets spindle-at-speed true , this overides the spindle at speed
> it may be in your postgui.hal file .
> comment it out and you should be ok
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 29 December 2015 at 14:59, lloyd wilson <llwilso...@rochester.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I'm trying to add a pyvcp panel to control a spindle vfd. To take
>> advantage of the 'at-speed' signal from the vfd to inhibit motion until
>> ready, the motion component of LCNC needs to be aware of the spindle
>> command state- from the documentation:
>>
>> *motion.spindle-at-speed* IN BIT
>>
>> Motion will pause until this pin is TRUE, under the following
>> conditions: before the first feed move after each spindle start or speed
>> change; before the start of every chain of spindle-synchronized moves;
>> and if in CSS mode, at every rapid->feed transition.
>>
>> but I can't find a reference to HAL input pins for spindle control in
>> the motion control component documentation. Is that communication done
>> by other methods (NML??- gasp!).
>>
>> Can someone point me to a sample configuration that properly integrates
>> an 'at-speed' signal into LCNC?
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>> -ldw
>>
>> --
>> ___
>> Emc-users mailing list
>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> The information contained in this message is confidential and is intended
> for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there
> are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised
> use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly
> forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses
> prior to leaving the RcTechnix network. RcTechnix will not be liable for
> direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration
> of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any
> virus being passed on.
>
> RcTechnix reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages being
> sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or
> detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring effective
> operation.
>
> (c) RcTechnix
>



-- 

The information contained in this message is confidential and is intended
for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there
are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised
use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly
forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses
prior to leaving the RcTechnix network. RcTechnix will not be liable for
direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration
of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any
virus being passed on.

RcTechnix reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages being
sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or
detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring effective
operation.

(c) RcTechnix
--
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

--
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[Sarah Armstrong]

arh ,
if i'm reading correctly , you wish to use an external output form your vfd
to trigger ? , hence an input pin

the spindle at speed signal is internally generated within linuxcnc , using
the spindle rpm encoder
so therfore does not need an input from the vfd directly to use . so long
as your spindle speed rpm is correct or within bounds of a few rpm
it will work fine ,




On 29 December 2015 at 15:11, Sarah Armstrong 
wrote:

> you can use stepconf to produce a configuration ,
> you usually see a
> sets spindle-at-speed true , this overides the spindle at speed
> it may be in your postgui.hal file .
> comment it out and you should be ok
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 29 December 2015 at 14:59, lloyd wilson 
> wrote:
>
>> I'm trying to add a pyvcp panel to control a spindle vfd. To take
>> advantage of the 'at-speed' signal from the vfd to inhibit motion until
>> ready, the motion component of LCNC needs to be aware of the spindle
>> command state- from the documentation:
>>
>> *motion.spindle-at-speed* IN BIT
>>
>> Motion will pause until this pin is TRUE, under the following
>> conditions: before the first feed move after each spindle start or speed
>> change; before the start of every chain of spindle-synchronized moves;
>> and if in CSS mode, at every rapid->feed transition.
>>
>> but I can't find a reference to HAL input pins for spindle control in
>> the motion control component documentation. Is that communication done
>> by other methods (NML??- gasp!).
>>
>> Can someone point me to a sample configuration that properly integrates
>> an 'at-speed' signal into LCNC?
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>> -ldw
>>
>> --
>> ___
>> Emc-users mailing list
>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> The information contained in this message is confidential and is intended
> for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there
> are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised
> use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly
> forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses
> prior to leaving the RcTechnix network. RcTechnix will not be liable for
> direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration
> of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any
> virus being passed on.
>
> RcTechnix reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages being
> sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or
> detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring effective
> operation.
>
> (c) RcTechnix
>



-- 

The information contained in this message is confidential and is intended
for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there
are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised
use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly
forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses
prior to leaving the RcTechnix network. RcTechnix will not be liable for
direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration
of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any
virus being passed on.

RcTechnix reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages being
sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or
detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring effective
operation.

(c) RcTechnix
--
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[Dave Caroline]

motion.spindle-at-speed IN BIT
the IN states it is an input so you already found it.
that pin being in the pins section of
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/motion.9.html

Dave Caroline

--
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 29 December 2015 09:59:34 lloyd wilson wrote:

> I'm trying to add a pyvcp panel to control a spindle vfd. To take
> advantage of the 'at-speed' signal from the vfd to inhibit motion
> until ready, the motion component of LCNC needs to be aware of the
> spindle command state- from the documentation:
>
> *motion.spindle-at-speed* IN BIT
>
> Motion will pause until this pin is TRUE, under the following
> conditions: before the first feed move after each spindle start or
> speed change; before the start of every chain of spindle-synchronized
> moves; and if in CSS mode, at every rapid->feed transition.
>
> but I can't find a reference to HAL input pins for spindle control in
> the motion control component documentation. Is that communication done
> by other methods (NML??- gasp!).
>
> Can someone point me to a sample configuration that properly
> integrates an 'at-speed' signal into LCNC?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> -ldw

I used a near module to develop an at-speed on my lathe.

Grepping for near in the .hal files shows this:
gene@lathe:~/linuxcnc/configs/my_LinuxCNC_machine2$ grep near *.hal
my_LinuxCNC_machine2.hal:loadrt nearnames=near.speed
my_LinuxCNC_machine2.hal:addf   mult2.buttonscale   servo-thread# s/b 
in front of near.speed
my_LinuxCNC_machine2.hal:addf   near.speed  servo-thread
my_LinuxCNC_machine2.hal:netspindle-velocitysumenc.out  
pid.s.feedback near.speed.in2
my_LinuxCNC_machine2.hal:netspindle-drive0  
motion.spindle-speed-out-rpsrvsaccel.in near.speed.in1
my_LinuxCNC_machine2.hal:netspindle-at-speednear.speed.out  
motion.spindle-at-speed
my_LinuxCNC_machine2.hal:# near.speed.in1 is from pid.s.command
my_LinuxCNC_machine2.hal:netspindle-at-speed   <=  near.speed.out
my_LinuxCNC_machine2.hal:setp   near.speed.scale[SPINDLE_9]NEAR_SCALE
my_LinuxCNC_machine2.hal:setp   near.speed.difference   [SPINDLE_9]NEAR_TOL

and a grep for at-speed:

gene@lathe:~/linuxcnc/configs/my_LinuxCNC_machine2$ grep at-speed *.hal
Gearchange_snippet.hal:#sets spindle-at-speed true
my_LinuxCNC_machine2.hal:netspindle-at-speednear.speed.out  
motion.spindle-at-speed
my_LinuxCNC_machine2.hal:netspindle-at-speed   <=  near.speed.out
pyvcp_options.hal:net spindle-at-speed=>pyvcp.spindle-at-speed-led

sumenc.out is the output stage of a lashup that sums the last 4 encoder 
samples and outputs the average, a de-noising technique I have cobbled up.
It lets me run higher gains in pid.s and results in a quite stiff
maintenance of the spindle speed even at speeds down to about 60 rpm
without rattling the gear clearances in the backgear too badly as the 
encoder slots go by.  The fly in that soup is there is not a signal I
can get directly from a Mesa 5i25 card that indicates an edge has gone 
by, so I save the last velocity reading, and declare an edge clocking 
pulse if the next reading has changed by more than a couple counts. 
It probably miss-fires at the higher rpms, missing an edge here and 
there as the shop made encoders slots are going by faster than the 
servo-thread can read it, but by 500 rpm, inertia takes over and the 
speed control remains quite stiff.

I hope its helpfull.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

--
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 29 December 2015 11:35:09 Todd Zuercher wrote:

> That is fine if he has spindle feed back, but if not, then the best
> option is to use the at speed output from his VFD.
>
If it has such a beast. I'd assume todays stuff would be expected to have 
that as a given.  But that means you are taking some elses idea of at 
speed at face value.  Since I built the encoder on my lathe, I'd trust 
what I see with a bit more confidence.

OTOH, if the vfd is sufficiently programmable, I'd expect its "near" 
output to be just as valid.  The docs for our near module aren't as 
self-explanatory as I'd like, with my formal schooling I get lost in the 
higher math pretty easy, so I had a bit of trouble setp-ing it to  work 
well most of the time.  Being able to set its target on one input, and 
feed the result into the other ought to work, but there is a scale and a 
tolerance that isn't well explained to this mathematically challenged 
person.  I'd assume that feeding desired rpms into one pin, noise 
filtered rpms from the encoder to the other, setting scale to 1.000, but 
the tolerance exhibited doesn't seem to a +- percentage about matched 
speeds.  I've not looked at it in a while but ISTR I had to apply a 
non-1.000 scale to center its response and that didn't do quite as I 
expected.  But its working well enough to do some rigid tapping OK.

> All you need to do is net the input pin motion.spindle-at-speed to the
> signal from your VFD, it is that simple.  So if your VFD signal is
> connected to the parallel port pin #15, the line in your hal file
> would be: net spindle_at_speed <= parport.0.pin-15-in =>
> motion.spindle-at-speed
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Sarah Armstrong" <sarahj.armstron...@gmail.com>
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015
> 10:19:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control
>
> arh ,
> if i'm reading correctly , you wish to use an external output form
> your vfd to trigger ? , hence an input pin
>
> the spindle at speed signal is internally generated within linuxcnc ,
> using the spindle rpm encoder
> so therfore does not need an input from the vfd directly to use . so
> long as your spindle speed rpm is correct or within bounds of a few
> rpm it will work fine ,
>
>
>
>
> On 29 December 2015 at 15:11, Sarah Armstrong
> <sarahj.armstron...@gmail.com>
>
> wrote:
> > you can use stepconf to produce a configuration ,
> > you usually see a
> > sets spindle-at-speed true , this overides the spindle at speed
> > it may be in your postgui.hal file .
> > comment it out and you should be ok
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 29 December 2015 at 14:59, lloyd wilson
> > <llwilso...@rochester.rr.com>
> >
> > wrote:
> >> I'm trying to add a pyvcp panel to control a spindle vfd. To take
> >> advantage of the 'at-speed' signal from the vfd to inhibit motion
> >> until ready, the motion component of LCNC needs to be aware of the
> >> spindle command state- from the documentation:
> >>
> >> *motion.spindle-at-speed* IN BIT
> >>
> >> Motion will pause until this pin is TRUE, under the following
> >> conditions: before the first feed move after each spindle start or
> >> speed change; before the start of every chain of
> >> spindle-synchronized moves; and if in CSS mode, at every
> >> rapid->feed transition.
> >>
> >> but I can't find a reference to HAL input pins for spindle control
> >> in the motion control component documentation. Is that
> >> communication done by other methods (NML??- gasp!).
> >>
> >> Can someone point me to a sample configuration that properly
> >> integrates an 'at-speed' signal into LCNC?
> >>
> >> Thanks in advance
> >>
> >> -ldw
> >>
> >> ---
> >>--- ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > --
> >
> > The information contained in this message is confidential and is
> > intended for the addressee only. If you have received this message
> > in error or there are any problems please notify the originator
> > immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration
> > of this message is strictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments
> > have been scanned for viruses prior to leaving the RcTechnix
> >

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control

[Sarah Armstrong]

you can use stepconf to produce a configuration ,
you usually see a
sets spindle-at-speed true , this overides the spindle at speed
it may be in your postgui.hal file .
comment it out and you should be ok






On 29 December 2015 at 14:59, lloyd wilson 
wrote:

> I'm trying to add a pyvcp panel to control a spindle vfd. To take
> advantage of the 'at-speed' signal from the vfd to inhibit motion until
> ready, the motion component of LCNC needs to be aware of the spindle
> command state- from the documentation:
>
> *motion.spindle-at-speed* IN BIT
>
> Motion will pause until this pin is TRUE, under the following
> conditions: before the first feed move after each spindle start or speed
> change; before the start of every chain of spindle-synchronized moves;
> and if in CSS mode, at every rapid->feed transition.
>
> but I can't find a reference to HAL input pins for spindle control in
> the motion control component documentation. Is that communication done
> by other methods (NML??- gasp!).
>
> Can someone point me to a sample configuration that properly integrates
> an 'at-speed' signal into LCNC?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> -ldw
>
> --
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>



-- 

The information contained in this message is confidential and is intended
for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there
are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised
use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly
forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses
prior to leaving the RcTechnix network. RcTechnix will not be liable for
direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration
of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any
virus being passed on.

RcTechnix reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages being
sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or
detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring effective
operation.

(c) RcTechnix
--
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

[Emc-users] Spindle control

[lloyd wilson]

I'm trying to add a pyvcp panel to control a spindle vfd. To take 
advantage of the 'at-speed' signal from the vfd to inhibit motion until 
ready, the motion component of LCNC needs to be aware of the spindle 
command state- from the documentation:

*motion.spindle-at-speed* IN BIT

Motion will pause until this pin is TRUE, under the following 
conditions: before the first feed move after each spindle start or speed 
change; before the start of every chain of spindle-synchronized moves; 
and if in CSS mode, at every rapid->feed transition.

but I can't find a reference to HAL input pins for spindle control in 
the motion control component documentation. Is that communication done 
by other methods (NML??- gasp!).

Can someone point me to a sample configuration that properly integrates 
an 'at-speed' signal into LCNC?

Thanks in advance

-ldw
--
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control with 7i76

[Marius Liebenberg]

Thanks Peter this solution works just great. I cannot get my drive to 
recognize the analog input but that is a setting that is fooling me 
somewhere.
While measuring the voltage on the spinana signal I noticed that it 
stays at 0v when in reverse mode. I expected it to go positive for both 
directions.
I also noticed that on halshow it does go negative. Must I fiddle the 
spindle out signal in any way or is it supposed to be always positive 
seeing that it simulates a pot?


On 2014-07-31 17:48, Peter C. Wallace wrote:
 On Thu, 31 Jul 2014, Marius Liebenberg wrote:

 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 17:07:57 +0200
 From: Marius Liebenberg mar...@mastercut.co.za
 Reply-To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
  emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 Subject: [Emc-users] Spindle control with 7i76

 I am setting up my spindle on the lathe using the 7i76 spindle
 interface. The interface has one output for direction (F/R) but the
 invertor does not have a F/R input. I have to use two S inputs to make
 the inverter go forward or reverse. Is there a clever way with the 7i76
 to do this. I dont want to fit more relays unless I have to.
 P.S. the input control is a voltage 0-10v.
 Most VFDs can be programmed for F/R mode. If this feature is not available
 with your inverter the 7I76 will need an external SPDT relay or SSR, I intend
 to add this feature on the next 7I76 version but its not available yet.

 Wiring (for ground to activate) is

 ENA- -- Ground
 ENA+ -- Relay COM
 DIR+ -- +24V
 DIR- -- Relay coil
 Relay NC -- Inverter F
 Relay NO -- Inverter R

 If the inverter F/R inputs can be driven with field outputs, (that is, they
 can be actuated by +12 or +24V signals) you can use those instead of the
 spindle control outputs


 http://www.vishay.com/solid-state-relays/list/product-83812/

 Are nice SPDT SSRs for these types of applications
 -- 

 Regards /Groete

 Marius D. Liebenberg
 +27 82 698 3251
 +27 12 743 6064
 QQ 1767394877


 --
 Infragistics Professional
 Build stunning WinForms apps today!
 Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
 Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
 http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

 Peter Wallace
 Mesa Electronics

 (\__/)
 (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
 ()_() signature to help him gain world domination.


 --
 Infragistics Professional
 Build stunning WinForms apps today!
 Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
 Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
 http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


-- 

Regards /Groete

Marius D. Liebenberg
+27 82 698 3251
+27 12 743 6064
QQ 1767394877


--
Want fast and easy access to all the code in your enterprise? Index and
search up to 200,000 lines of code with a free copy of Black Duck
Code Sight - the same software that powers the world's largest code
search on Ohloh, the Black Duck Open Hub! Try it now.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/bds
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control with 7i76

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Fri, 8 Aug 2014, Marius Liebenberg wrote:

 Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2014 16:54:20 +0200
 From: Marius Liebenberg mar...@mastercut.co.za
 Reply-To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
 emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control with 7i76
 
 Thanks Peter this solution works just great. I cannot get my drive to
 recognize the analog input but that is a setting that is fooling me
 somewhere.
 While measuring the voltage on the spinana signal I noticed that it
 stays at 0v when in reverse mode. I expected it to go positive for both
 directions.
 I also noticed that on halshow it does go negative. Must I fiddle the
 spindle out signal in any way or is it supposed to be always positive
 seeing that it simulates a pot?



You need to use the absolute component to force the spindle output to
always be positive.




 On 2014-07-31 17:48, Peter C. Wallace wrote:
 On Thu, 31 Jul 2014, Marius Liebenberg wrote:

 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 17:07:57 +0200
 From: Marius Liebenberg mar...@mastercut.co.za
 Reply-To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
  emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 Subject: [Emc-users] Spindle control with 7i76

 I am setting up my spindle on the lathe using the 7i76 spindle
 interface. The interface has one output for direction (F/R) but the
 invertor does not have a F/R input. I have to use two S inputs to make
 the inverter go forward or reverse. Is there a clever way with the 7i76
 to do this. I dont want to fit more relays unless I have to.
 P.S. the input control is a voltage 0-10v.
 Most VFDs can be programmed for F/R mode. If this feature is not available
 with your inverter the 7I76 will need an external SPDT relay or SSR, I intend
 to add this feature on the next 7I76 version but its not available yet.

 Wiring (for ground to activate) is

 ENA- -- Ground
 ENA+ -- Relay COM
 DIR+ -- +24V
 DIR- -- Relay coil
 Relay NC -- Inverter F
 Relay NO -- Inverter R

 If the inverter F/R inputs can be driven with field outputs, (that is, they
 can be actuated by +12 or +24V signals) you can use those instead of the
 spindle control outputs


 http://www.vishay.com/solid-state-relays/list/product-83812/

 Are nice SPDT SSRs for these types of applications
 --

 Regards /Groete

 Marius D. Liebenberg
 +27 82 698 3251
 +27 12 743 6064
 QQ 1767394877


 --
 Infragistics Professional
 Build stunning WinForms apps today!
 Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
 Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
 http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

 Peter Wallace
 Mesa Electronics

 (\__/)
 (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
 ()_() signature to help him gain world domination.


 --
 Infragistics Professional
 Build stunning WinForms apps today!
 Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
 Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
 http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


 -- 

 Regards /Groete

 Marius D. Liebenberg
 +27 82 698 3251
 +27 12 743 6064
 QQ 1767394877


 --
 Want fast and easy access to all the code in your enterprise? Index and
 search up to 200,000 lines of code with a free copy of Black Duck
 Code Sight - the same software that powers the world's largest code
 search on Ohloh, the Black Duck Open Hub! Try it now.
 http://p.sf.net/sfu/bds
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
()_() signature to help him gain world domination.


--
Want fast and easy access to all the code in your enterprise? Index and
search up to 200,000 lines of code with a free copy of Black Duck
Code Sight - the same software that powers the world's largest code
search on Ohloh, the Black Duck Open Hub! Try it now.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/bds
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control with 7i76

[Marius Liebenberg]

On 2014-08-08 17:01, Peter C. Wallace wrote:
 On Fri, 8 Aug 2014, Marius Liebenberg wrote:

 Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2014 16:54:20 +0200
 From: Marius Liebenberg mar...@mastercut.co.za
 Reply-To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
  emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle control with 7i76

 Thanks Peter this solution works just great. I cannot get my drive to
 recognize the analog input but that is a setting that is fooling me
 somewhere.
 While measuring the voltage on the spinana signal I noticed that it
 stays at 0v when in reverse mode. I expected it to go positive for both
 directions.
 I also noticed that on halshow it does go negative. Must I fiddle the
 spindle out signal in any way or is it supposed to be always positive
 seeing that it simulates a pot?


 You need to use the absolute component to force the spindle output to
 always be positive.

Thanks I will do that.

While you are online, please. I take it that I have to use the velocity 
from the spindle encoder to get the spindle speed synchronized? What do 
I connect it to?




 On 2014-07-31 17:48, Peter C. Wallace wrote:
 On Thu, 31 Jul 2014, Marius Liebenberg wrote:

 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 17:07:57 +0200
 From: Marius Liebenberg mar...@mastercut.co.za
 Reply-To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
   emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 Subject: [Emc-users] Spindle control with 7i76

 I am setting up my spindle on the lathe using the 7i76 spindle
 interface. The interface has one output for direction (F/R) but the
 invertor does not have a F/R input. I have to use two S inputs to make
 the inverter go forward or reverse. Is there a clever way with the 7i76
 to do this. I dont want to fit more relays unless I have to.
 P.S. the input control is a voltage 0-10v.
 Most VFDs can be programmed for F/R mode. If this feature is not available
 with your inverter the 7I76 will need an external SPDT relay or SSR, I 
 intend
 to add this feature on the next 7I76 version but its not available yet.

 Wiring (for ground to activate) is

 ENA- -- Ground
 ENA+ -- Relay COM
 DIR+ -- +24V
 DIR- -- Relay coil
 Relay NC -- Inverter F
 Relay NO -- Inverter R

 If the inverter F/R inputs can be driven with field outputs, (that is, they
 can be actuated by +12 or +24V signals) you can use those instead of the
 spindle control outputs


 http://www.vishay.com/solid-state-relays/list/product-83812/

 Are nice SPDT SSRs for these types of applications
 --

 Regards /Groete

 Marius D. Liebenberg
 +27 82 698 3251
 +27 12 743 6064
 QQ 1767394877


 --
 Infragistics Professional
 Build stunning WinForms apps today!
 Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
 Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
 http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

 Peter Wallace
 Mesa Electronics

 (\__/)
 (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
 ()_() signature to help him gain world domination.


 --
 Infragistics Professional
 Build stunning WinForms apps today!
 Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
 Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
 http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

 -- 

 Regards /Groete

 Marius D. Liebenberg
 +27 82 698 3251
 +27 12 743 6064
 QQ 1767394877


 --
 Want fast and easy access to all the code in your enterprise? Index and
 search up to 200,000 lines of code with a free copy of Black Duck
 Code Sight - the same software that powers the world's largest code
 search on Ohloh, the Black Duck Open Hub! Try it now.
 http://p.sf.net/sfu/bds
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

 Peter Wallace
 Mesa Electronics

 (\__/)
 (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
 ()_() signature to help him gain world domination.


 --
 Want fast and easy access to all the code in your enterprise? Index and
 search up to 200,000 lines of code with a free copy of Black Duck
 Code Sight - the same software that powers the world's largest code
 search on Ohloh, the Black Duck Open Hub! Try it now.
 http://p.sf.net/sfu/bds