Re: [Emc-users] No mail received?

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> I did, even wrote a diploma thesis on that subject, but this was some 40 
> years ago... Since then, I rather managed people doing research on it.
> 
> Peter

I do plenty of research but my collegeus are most busy with meetings. Unless 
they make to much noise or put some obstacle in the path of getting something 
useful done I do not care to much.

I however try to involve collegeus, quite often however without response.


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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received?

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 21 October 2018 11:19:01 Eric Keller wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 1:37 PM Leonardo Marsaglia
> 
>
> wrote:
> > Same here, the list is very quiet but I'm receiving everything from
> > this topic.
> >
> > I have been seeing tons of threads in this folder, so I was a little
>
> surprised to see this subject.  Turns out that Gene Heskett always
> posts his threads in the developers list no matter how little
> developer-related it might be.  I send both lists and the machinkit
> list to the same gmail folder.
> Eric
>
So do I Eric, except here its a kmail folder. Same thing except the whole 
email corpus is on this machine, not some other machine with a corporate 
interest in what my email contains so they can more efficiently spam me. 
And at least 80% of my posts goto the users list. The sudden onset of 
following errors did seem to be a question that should be asked on the 
developer list as it started w/o my doing anything except keeping the 
machines up to date from master a couple times a week, and it was 
rapidly answered, and fixed.

One thing I think I do well is playing the canary in the coal mine, so 
stuff like this gets caught and publicized back to the developers  
before it gets into an official release. In my case its a 99.99% total 
loss shop, so being laid up for a bit while such things get smoothed 
over does not disable an income producing machine.

I never did sub to the machinekit list since they tend to think the bbb 
is the best, but its architecture needed a major rewrite of lcnc to run 
on it. Or so it seemed to me. Here, running it on a pi 3b pushes the pi 
a bit but still gives decent results.

My only pi os problem just showed up 2 or 3 days back, there is a new 
video driver, I assume is faster, but it also married to the latest 
raspbian kernel, which is NOT an RT kernel, and no one has built the 
more recent RT kernels (that actually work)for the armhf yet. I have but 
then how does one install it on a u-boot machine?. Questions about that 
have been ducked or ignored on the raspian forum, little if any interest 
in machine controllers there. And no interest in starting a mailing list 
in that camp.  There are other, much faster one board sbc's (rock64) out 
there, but with essentially zero support, much less than the pi has. So 
I'm essentially stuck with the pi. I can build an RT kernel for the 
arm64 on the rock64 in about an hour, but questions about how to install 
it have been ignored on their forum, repeatedly. Ditto with odroid-c2.

Thanks Erik

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received?

[Eric Keller]

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 1:37 PM Leonardo Marsaglia 
wrote:

> Same here, the list is very quiet but I'm receiving everything from this
> topic.
>
> I have been seeing tons of threads in this folder, so I was a little
surprised to see this subject.  Turns out that Gene Heskett always posts
his threads in the developers list no matter how little developer-related
it might be.  I send both lists and the machinkit list to the same gmail
folder.
Eric

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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received?

[Nicklas Karlsson]

Right now I am mainly concerned about linear state space. There are a few 
things I think about then in come to feedback. I also need to do estimation of 
constants in the model as well as check how well the dynamics fit with the 
theory.

It is goint slowly forward usually an hour a few each day.


> I did, even wrote a diploma thesis on that subject, but this was some 40 
> years ago... Since then, I rather managed people doing research on it.
> 
> Peter
> 
> Am 19.10.2018 um 19:39 schrieb Nicklas Karlsson:
> > I am still here, working on control theory right now. Anybody who have a 
> > taken any courses of in control theory on University?
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received?

[Peter Blodow]

I did, even wrote a diploma thesis on that subject, but this was some 40 
years ago... Since then, I rather managed people doing research on it.


Peter

Am 19.10.2018 um 19:39 schrieb Nicklas Karlsson:

I am still here, working on control theory right now. Anybody who have a taken 
any courses of in control theory on University?






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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received? --> control theory, state feedback

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> > No not interested in any of the above more than possible what you write
> > about integration.
> >
> > That's fine, it takes a lot of study to move past experimentation with
> PID.  And the literature is full of dead ends. The question I have about
> putting the integrator at the model error is how that would drive a steady
> state positioning error to zero.  Seems like your measurement and model
> could be forced to agreement without driving the positioning error to
> zero.  Of course, I don't understand your system at all, so I could be
> wrong.  In general, putting integrators into a system adds instability
> because it's a marginally stable dynamic element.   Even if it does just
> remain an integrator in the closed loop system, there is always the issue
> of windup.
> Eric

The model go to zero without an integrator. Integrating error between what 
signal is supposed to be with output will make error between model and reality 
goto zero. I am not totally sure this already happen in some documents I read.

For a "dead beat" controller it will not make a difference but then gain is 
lowered as is probably always the case it will make a difference.

I have not yet been able to put together the theory and are not totally sure it 
have already been written down or if idea is bad.


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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received?

[Dave Cole]

Fuzzy control is not suitable for everything but it does some things 
very well.


I became interested in it when I started experimenting in autopilots for 
sailboats.  (Power boats tend to be much easier)


There is some really horrible autopilot software out there.  Its amazing 
how bad some of it is.


There are several articles out there on Boat, Ship and airplane 
Autopilots being implemented with fuzzy logic.


Dave



On 10/19/2018 11:20 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Friday 19 October 2018 22:36:43 Dave Cole wrote:


Here is one I remember.

http://www.rentanadviser.com/en/pid-fuzzy-logic/pid-fuzzy-logic.aspx

There is also a lot of developed open source Fuzzy logic libraries.

Do a search for "Fuzzy Logic Open Source".

Like everything else, some of it is good, some of it is garbage.

Faster than a PID?   I don't know if it can be faster, but done right,
I think it can be more effective than a PID.  Especially if you really
need something more sophisticated than a simple PID loop.


I haven't so far.


Normally for a PID, you will have a PV(Process variable)  and a
Setpoint for the PV and math is run that creates an Output that
affects the PV, hence the "loop".

Looking at the math in the first goggle hit, lots of it, although its all
integer, seems like it would have to be slower.

A PID, since I put the new encoder on the G0704, is good enough that my
only clue its overloaded, is the motor's chirp from Jons pwm-servo amp
as it goes into current limiting at about 17 amps. Up to that point, no
detectable slowdown. I figure I'm pulling around 2hp at that point, its
a 1hp 90 volt motor with a nameplate amps in the middle 9's, and its
being hammered with 126 volts and nearly double the amps.  And working
like it was made for it. Knocking on wood, even the plastic gears in the
2 speed head are holding up well. I've even put in some extra hal
trickery for a seemless gear change while its turning, as the tally
switches also are tied into the drive so that if both are open, the
motor revs drop to about 30 while the shifter is moving, and returns to
the set speed as the knob hits the last 2 degrees of the stop closeing
one of the switches. With that encoder and the PID setup, the speed
changes are done in a few milliseconds, way faster than I can muscle the
knob. That also is tied to the tach, so the tach is accurate in either
gear.

But I'm always curious about what may be a better way,

Thanks Dave.




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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received?

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 19 October 2018 16:55:31 Marcus Bowman wrote:

> On 19 Oct 2018, at 19:11, Bruce Layne wrote:
> >   There was a lengthy phase when I wasn't saving much time with
> > unattended CNC machining because I'd just stand there staring at the
> > CNC machining while thinking, "This is so cool."
>
> There is nothing quite so satisfying as having lunch while listening
> to the CNC mill working for me. I sometimes leave the workshop door
> open (between the workshop and the rest of the house) just to hear its
> busy sounds.
>
> > Huge thanks to those who made LinuxCNC the incredible tool it is
> > today.
>
> +1 to that, for sure.
>
> Marcus
>
Add my +1 to those sentiments. We, generally the complainers, don't say 
thank you near often enough.
>
>
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--
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received? --> control theory, state feedback

[Eric Keller]

On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 11:37 AM Nicklas Karlsson <
nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com> wrote:

> No not interested in any of the above more than possible what you write
> about integration.
>
> That's fine, it takes a lot of study to move past experimentation with
PID.  And the literature is full of dead ends. The question I have about
putting the integrator at the model error is how that would drive a steady
state positioning error to zero.  Seems like your measurement and model
could be forced to agreement without driving the positioning error to
zero.  Of course, I don't understand your system at all, so I could be
wrong.  In general, putting integrators into a system adds instability
because it's a marginally stable dynamic element.   Even if it does just
remain an integrator in the closed loop system, there is always the issue
of windup.
Eric

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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received? --> control theory, state feedback

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 1:01 AM Nicklas Karlsson <
> nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > (1.)
> > Then using state space model and integrator I want to integrate error
> > between where signal is expected to be and there measurement suggest it is.
> > As is now I integrate error between reference signal measured output and
> > then gain is reduced to get a more stable system the integrator will add an
> > overshoot. Basically my idea is to integrate only model error.
> >
> > (2.)
> > For a linear state space model there must be a "standardized" method to
> > calculate feed forward. This is of particular interest then gain is reduced
> > to get a more stable system.
> >
> > (1)Integrators almost always introduce an overshoot.  I am pretty sure you
> always want to integrate the difference between where you are and where you
> want to be (reference).   Adding an integrator on the difference between
> model error and measurement sounds a lot like "residual whitening." A
> Kalman filter can be set up to estimate unknown model parameters. The
> unknown parameters are set up as states of the system model.
> (2)I think most people set FF gains from system knowledge and previous
> experience.  There are optimal control techniques that will calculate them
> for you.  H infinity and related control schemes.
> 
> The Julia language has toolboxes for Kalman filters (and variations) and
> control theory. My guess is that you can find a system model that matches
> your machine if you look.  Might require a friend at a university to d/l
> some papers for you.
> Eric Keller
> Boalsburg, Pennsylvania

No not interested in any of the above more than possible what you write about 
integration.


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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received? --> control theory, state feedback

[Eric Keller]

On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 1:01 AM Nicklas Karlsson <
nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com> wrote:

> (1.)
> Then using state space model and integrator I want to integrate error
> between where signal is expected to be and there measurement suggest it is.
> As is now I integrate error between reference signal measured output and
> then gain is reduced to get a more stable system the integrator will add an
> overshoot. Basically my idea is to integrate only model error.
>
> (2.)
> For a linear state space model there must be a "standardized" method to
> calculate feed forward. This is of particular interest then gain is reduced
> to get a more stable system.
>
> (1)Integrators almost always introduce an overshoot.  I am pretty sure you
always want to integrate the difference between where you are and where you
want to be (reference).   Adding an integrator on the difference between
model error and measurement sounds a lot like "residual whitening." A
Kalman filter can be set up to estimate unknown model parameters. The
unknown parameters are set up as states of the system model.
(2)I think most people set FF gains from system knowledge and previous
experience.  There are optimal control techniques that will calculate them
for you.  H infinity and related control schemes.

The Julia language has toolboxes for Kalman filters (and variations) and
control theory. My guess is that you can find a system model that matches
your machine if you look.  Might require a friend at a university to d/l
some papers for you.
Eric Keller
Boalsburg, Pennsylvania

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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received? --> mathematical model of reality

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> > On 10/19/2018 2:12 PM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> > > Probably not, I have done quite a lot of search on Internet, have a
> > > few books and have taken two courses specifically in the area but if
> > > you have readily available I could always take a look.
> > >
> > > I find a lot of documents about PID controllers and theory using
> > > bode, nyquist diagrams.
> > >
> > > I found state space feedback and bode, nyquist diagram are useful
> > > also for state feedback but then state space model is available I
> > > prefer method to calculate gains using the model. I could do state
> > > space feedback including integral action but get the feeling a
> > > chapter or so is missing, maybe I have to write it myself.
> 
> Someone who really understands it needs to..  Whats out there tends to 
> talk more theory than hardware. ...

The hardware need to be properly modeled. There are plenty of litterature 
available including for freely accesible on internet about electric motors. 
Static friction may be a problem but I think a properly lubricated machine have 
rather viscous friction which easy to put in a mathematical model suitable for 
control of machine.


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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received?

[Nicklas Karlsson]

I thought the fuzzy thing where handled by adding noise with or without 
filtering to model and start with the case then system is well known.

> I did the university thing on control theory, but it was a while ago.. 
> more than 30 years..so I'll leave it at that!  :-)
> 
> If you are researching loop control theory, you should also look at 
> Fuzzy logic controllers.
> 
> There are some simulator software out there that allow you to compare 
> Fuzzy logic techniques to traditional PID controls.
> Some of them are live webpages.
> Its very interesting.   To me, its amazing how effective fuzzy logic can 
> be.   The big problem that I found is that you have to read quite a bit 
> before it makes sense.
> There are a lot of poor explanations of how it works.  Some of the 
> explanations are so bad that they simply create confusion.
> 
> Dave
> 
> On 10/19/2018 2:12 PM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> > Probably not, I have done quite a lot of search on Internet, have a few 
> > books and have taken two courses specifically in the area but if you have 
> > readily available I could always take a look.
> >
> > I find a lot of documents about PID controllers and theory using bode, 
> > nyquist diagrams.
> >
> > I found state space feedback and bode, nyquist diagram are useful also for 
> > state feedback but then state space model is available I prefer method to 
> > calculate gains using the model. I could do state space feedback including 
> > integral action but get the feeling a chapter or so is missing, maybe I 
> > have to write it myself.
> >
> >
> > Regards, Nicklas Karlsson
> >
> >
> >
> >> I didn't get to that point at the university. Between the work and other
> >> things I'm taking it at a slow pace. But I have some PDFs about control
> >> theory that may help.
> >>
> >> El vie., 19 oct. 2018 a las 14:41, Nicklas Karlsson (<
> >> nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com>) escribió:
> >>
> >>> I am still here, working on control theory right now. Anybody who have a
> >>> taken any courses of in control theory on University?
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 14:36:59 -0300
> >>> Leonardo Marsaglia  wrote:
> >>>
>  Same here, the list is very quiet but I'm receiving everything from this
>  topic.
> 
>  El vie., 19 oct. 2018 a las 12:04, andy pugh ()
>  escribió:
> 
> > On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 at 15:32, Peter Blodow  wrote:
> >
> >> I haven't got any mail from this list since Oct.10th. How come?
> > It does seem odd.
> >
> > The mail server thingy doesn't think that there have been any
> > messages, but it might be wrong:
> >
> > https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/emc-users/?viewmonth=201810
> >
> >
> > --
> > atp
> > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > lunatics."
> > — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
> >
> >
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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received? --> control theory, state feedback

[Nicklas Karlsson]

Yes a few, or actually two, both related to state feedback control and linear 
state space model.


(1.)
Then using state space model and integrator I want to integrate error between 
where signal is expected to be and there measurement suggest it is. As is now I 
integrate error between reference signal measured output and then gain is 
reduced to get a more stable system the integrator will add an overshoot. 
Basically my idea is to integrate only model error.

I tried it once and seemed to work great but I need to put some theories 
behind, I think it might be rather simple basically predictive filter which is 
Kalman filte in optimal case. Example is gone but should be rather simple to 
implement again. I think this integrator also solve the windup problem if 
update of where system is expected to be is properly limited.


(2.)
For a linear state space model there must be a "standardized" method to 
calculate feed forward. This is of particular interest then gain is reduced to 
get a more stable system.



> Do you have an unanswered question about control theory?
> Eric Keller
> Boalsburg, Pennsylvania
> 
> On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 1:41 PM Nicklas Karlsson <
> nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I am still here, working on control theory right now. Anybody who have a
> > taken any courses of in control theory on University?
> >
> > On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 14:36:59 -0300
> > Leonardo Marsaglia  wrote:
> >
> > > Same here, the list is very quiet but I'm receiving everything from this
> > > topic.
> > >
> > > El vie., 19 oct. 2018 a las 12:04, andy pugh ()
> > > escribió:
> > >
> > > > On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 at 15:32, Peter Blodow  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I haven't got any mail from this list since Oct.10th. How come?
> > > >
> > > > It does seem odd.
> > > >
> > > > The mail server thingy doesn't think that there have been any
> > > > messages, but it might be wrong:
> > > >
> > > > https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/emc-users/?viewmonth=201810
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > atp
> > > > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > > > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > > > lunatics."
> > > > — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
> > > >
> > > >
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> > >
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> >
> >
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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received?

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 19 October 2018 22:36:43 Dave Cole wrote:

> Here is one I remember.
>
> http://www.rentanadviser.com/en/pid-fuzzy-logic/pid-fuzzy-logic.aspx
>
> There is also a lot of developed open source Fuzzy logic libraries.
>
> Do a search for "Fuzzy Logic Open Source".
>
> Like everything else, some of it is good, some of it is garbage.
>
> Faster than a PID?   I don't know if it can be faster, but done right,
> I think it can be more effective than a PID.  Especially if you really
> need something more sophisticated than a simple PID loop.
>
I haven't so far.

> Normally for a PID, you will have a PV(Process variable)  and a
> Setpoint for the PV and math is run that creates an Output that
> affects the PV, hence the "loop".

Looking at the math in the first goggle hit, lots of it, although its all 
integer, seems like it would have to be slower.

A PID, since I put the new encoder on the G0704, is good enough that my 
only clue its overloaded, is the motor's chirp from Jons pwm-servo amp 
as it goes into current limiting at about 17 amps. Up to that point, no 
detectable slowdown. I figure I'm pulling around 2hp at that point, its 
a 1hp 90 volt motor with a nameplate amps in the middle 9's, and its 
being hammered with 126 volts and nearly double the amps.  And working 
like it was made for it. Knocking on wood, even the plastic gears in the 
2 speed head are holding up well. I've even put in some extra hal 
trickery for a seemless gear change while its turning, as the tally 
switches also are tied into the drive so that if both are open, the 
motor revs drop to about 30 while the shifter is moving, and returns to 
the set speed as the knob hits the last 2 degrees of the stop closeing 
one of the switches. With that encoder and the PID setup, the speed 
changes are done in a few milliseconds, way faster than I can muscle the 
knob. That also is tied to the tach, so the tach is accurate in either 
gear.

But I'm always curious about what may be a better way,

Thanks Dave.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received?

[Dave Cole]

Here is one I remember.

http://www.rentanadviser.com/en/pid-fuzzy-logic/pid-fuzzy-logic.aspx

There is also a lot of developed open source Fuzzy logic libraries.

Do a search for "Fuzzy Logic Open Source".

Like everything else, some of it is good, some of it is garbage.

Faster than a PID?   I don't know if it can be faster, but done right, I 
think it can be more effective than a PID.  Especially if you really 
need something more sophisticated than a simple PID loop.


Normally for a PID, you will have a PV(Process variable)  and a Setpoint 
for the PV and math is run that creates an Output that affects the PV, 
hence the "loop".


A fuzzy logic controller can do the same thing, using two inputs and one 
output, or it can be configured with
more than two inputs.   So you could have a PV and a Setpoint, then also 
an ambient temperature input, a RPM input, a coolant temp input, current 
input, etc, etc. and they could all be used to create an output.


My advice when reading up on Fuzzy logic;   If it is not understandable, 
keep looking for an understandable explanation.


Dave




On 10/19/2018 7:23 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Friday 19 October 2018 19:05:31 Dave Cole wrote:


I did the university thing on control theory, but it was a while ago..
more than 30 years..so I'll leave it at that!  :-)

If you are researching loop control theory, you should also look at
Fuzzy logic controllers.

There are some simulator software out there that allow you to compare
Fuzzy logic techniques to traditional PID controls.
Some of them are live webpages.

Interesting, URL's please?


Its very interesting.   To me, its amazing how effective fuzzy logic
can be.   The big problem that I found is that you have to read quite
a bit before it makes sense.

Can it be faster than a PID?


There are a lot of poor explanations of how it works.  Some of the
explanations are so bad that they simply create confusion.

That can also be said of some of the PID descriptions :(


Dave

On 10/19/2018 2:12 PM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:

Probably not, I have done quite a lot of search on Internet, have a
few books and have taken two courses specifically in the area but if
you have readily available I could always take a look.

I find a lot of documents about PID controllers and theory using
bode, nyquist diagrams.

I found state space feedback and bode, nyquist diagram are useful
also for state feedback but then state space model is available I
prefer method to calculate gains using the model. I could do state
space feedback including integral action but get the feeling a
chapter or so is missing, maybe I have to write it myself.

Someone who really understands it needs to..  Whats out there tends to
talk more theory than hardware. For me at least, that leaves a huge gap
between the theory and the hardwares reaction to best guesses about the
theory because we've no ready made method to measure the moving mass so
what I make work, may be a long ways from optimum. I suspect caution
results in less acceleration than its capable of.



Regards, Nicklas Karlsson


I didn't get to that point at the university. Between the work and
other things I'm taking it at a slow pace. But I have some PDFs
about control theory that may help.

El vie., 19 oct. 2018 a las 14:41, Nicklas Karlsson (<

nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com>) escribió:

I am still here, working on control theory right now. Anybody who
have a taken any courses of in control theory on University?

On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 14:36:59 -0300

Leonardo Marsaglia  wrote:

Same here, the list is very quiet but I'm receiving everything
from this topic.

El vie., 19 oct. 2018 a las 12:04, andy pugh
()

escribió:

On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 at 15:32, Peter Blodow 

wrote:

I haven't got any mail from this list since Oct.10th. How come?

It does seem odd.

The mail server thingy doesn't think that there have been any
messages, but it might be wrong:

https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/emc-users/?viewmonth=20181
0


--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils
and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received?

[andy pugh]

On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 at 19:14, Nicklas Karlsson
 wrote:

> I found state space feedback and bode, nyquist diagram are useful also for 
> state feedback but then state space model is available

I have never studied any of that stuff. Which is not to dismiss it, I
did Physics at college and am a fan of analysis. But in my day job I
basically program controllers (engine management systems) and the
theory isn't much help. Partly because exploring the configuration
space is impossible in finite time, and partly because exploring the
response time gets very expensive, very fast.

I work mainly on the idle speed controller. It's PID. Except that
there are separate gains for every gear, and for various clutch
engagement states. And every P, I and D is an 8x8 map which varies by
idle speed error and engine temperature.

Many of the points in those curves either are not stable enough to
test (400 rpm below setpoint) or don't stay still (-30C coolant temp)
so we have to throw theory out the window (whilst acknowledging what
it has to tell us) and just turn the knobs in real time listening for
the result. (like a trombonist or violinist)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received?

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 19 October 2018 19:05:31 Dave Cole wrote:

> I did the university thing on control theory, but it was a while ago..
> more than 30 years..so I'll leave it at that!  :-)
>
> If you are researching loop control theory, you should also look at
> Fuzzy logic controllers.
>
> There are some simulator software out there that allow you to compare
> Fuzzy logic techniques to traditional PID controls.
> Some of them are live webpages.

Interesting, URL's please?

> Its very interesting.   To me, its amazing how effective fuzzy logic
> can be.   The big problem that I found is that you have to read quite
> a bit before it makes sense.

Can it be faster than a PID?

> There are a lot of poor explanations of how it works.  Some of the
> explanations are so bad that they simply create confusion.

That can also be said of some of the PID descriptions :(

>
> Dave
>
> On 10/19/2018 2:12 PM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> > Probably not, I have done quite a lot of search on Internet, have a
> > few books and have taken two courses specifically in the area but if
> > you have readily available I could always take a look.
> >
> > I find a lot of documents about PID controllers and theory using
> > bode, nyquist diagrams.
> >
> > I found state space feedback and bode, nyquist diagram are useful
> > also for state feedback but then state space model is available I
> > prefer method to calculate gains using the model. I could do state
> > space feedback including integral action but get the feeling a
> > chapter or so is missing, maybe I have to write it myself.

Someone who really understands it needs to..  Whats out there tends to 
talk more theory than hardware. For me at least, that leaves a huge gap 
between the theory and the hardwares reaction to best guesses about the 
theory because we've no ready made method to measure the moving mass so 
what I make work, may be a long ways from optimum. I suspect caution 
results in less acceleration than its capable of.

> >
> >
> > Regards, Nicklas Karlsson
> >
> >> I didn't get to that point at the university. Between the work and
> >> other things I'm taking it at a slow pace. But I have some PDFs
> >> about control theory that may help.
> >>
> >> El vie., 19 oct. 2018 a las 14:41, Nicklas Karlsson (<
> >>
> >> nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com>) escribió:
> >>> I am still here, working on control theory right now. Anybody who
> >>> have a taken any courses of in control theory on University?
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 14:36:59 -0300
> >>>
> >>> Leonardo Marsaglia  wrote:
>  Same here, the list is very quiet but I'm receiving everything
>  from this topic.
> 
>  El vie., 19 oct. 2018 a las 12:04, andy pugh
>  ()
> 
>  escribió:
> > On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 at 15:32, Peter Blodow  
wrote:
> >> I haven't got any mail from this list since Oct.10th. How come?
> >
> > It does seem odd.
> >
> > The mail server thingy doesn't think that there have been any
> > messages, but it might be wrong:
> >
> > https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/emc-users/?viewmonth=20181
> >0
> >
> >
> > --
> > atp
> > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils
> > and lunatics."
> > — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 
>  ___
>  Emc-users mailing list
>  Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>  https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> Emc-users mailing list
> >>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
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-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received?

[Dave Cole]

I did the university thing on control theory, but it was a while ago.. 
more than 30 years..so I'll leave it at that!  :-)


If you are researching loop control theory, you should also look at 
Fuzzy logic controllers.


There are some simulator software out there that allow you to compare 
Fuzzy logic techniques to traditional PID controls.

Some of them are live webpages.
Its very interesting.   To me, its amazing how effective fuzzy logic can 
be.   The big problem that I found is that you have to read quite a bit 
before it makes sense.
There are a lot of poor explanations of how it works.  Some of the 
explanations are so bad that they simply create confusion.


Dave

On 10/19/2018 2:12 PM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:

Probably not, I have done quite a lot of search on Internet, have a few books 
and have taken two courses specifically in the area but if you have readily 
available I could always take a look.

I find a lot of documents about PID controllers and theory using bode, nyquist 
diagrams.

I found state space feedback and bode, nyquist diagram are useful also for 
state feedback but then state space model is available I prefer method to 
calculate gains using the model. I could do state space feedback including 
integral action but get the feeling a chapter or so is missing, maybe I have to 
write it myself.


Regards, Nicklas Karlsson




I didn't get to that point at the university. Between the work and other
things I'm taking it at a slow pace. But I have some PDFs about control
theory that may help.

El vie., 19 oct. 2018 a las 14:41, Nicklas Karlsson (<
nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com>) escribió:


I am still here, working on control theory right now. Anybody who have a
taken any courses of in control theory on University?

On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 14:36:59 -0300
Leonardo Marsaglia  wrote:


Same here, the list is very quiet but I'm receiving everything from this
topic.

El vie., 19 oct. 2018 a las 12:04, andy pugh ()
escribió:


On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 at 15:32, Peter Blodow  wrote:


I haven't got any mail from this list since Oct.10th. How come?

It does seem odd.

The mail server thingy doesn't think that there have been any
messages, but it might be wrong:

https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/emc-users/?viewmonth=201810


--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received?

[Eric Keller]

Do you have an unanswered question about control theory?
Eric Keller
Boalsburg, Pennsylvania

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 1:41 PM Nicklas Karlsson <
nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I am still here, working on control theory right now. Anybody who have a
> taken any courses of in control theory on University?
>
> On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 14:36:59 -0300
> Leonardo Marsaglia  wrote:
>
> > Same here, the list is very quiet but I'm receiving everything from this
> > topic.
> >
> > El vie., 19 oct. 2018 a las 12:04, andy pugh ()
> > escribió:
> >
> > > On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 at 15:32, Peter Blodow  wrote:
> > >
> > > > I haven't got any mail from this list since Oct.10th. How come?
> > >
> > > It does seem odd.
> > >
> > > The mail server thingy doesn't think that there have been any
> > > messages, but it might be wrong:
> > >
> > > https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/emc-users/?viewmonth=201810
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > atp
> > > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > > lunatics."
> > > — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
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>

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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received?

[Marcus Bowman]

On 19 Oct 2018, at 19:11, Bruce Layne wrote:

>   There was a lengthy phase when I wasn't saving much time with unattended 
> CNC machining because I'd just stand there staring at the CNC machining while 
> thinking, "This is so cool."
> 
There is nothing quite so satisfying as having lunch while listening to the CNC 
mill working for me. I sometimes leave the workshop door open (between the 
workshop and the rest of the house) just to hear its busy sounds.

> Huge thanks to those who made LinuxCNC the incredible tool it is today.
+1 to that, for sure.

Marcus



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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received?

[Bruce Layne]

On 10/19/2018 10:15 AM, Peter Blodow wrote:

I haven't got any mail from this list since Oct.10th.  How come?


I'm finished building CNC equipment (are they ever completely finished?) 
and am now gainfully employed using LinuxCNC to make products for sale 
in a small online business.  I just set my brother up with a 24" X 49" 
heavy duty LinuxCNC router in his garage and he's shipping his first 
products in the next couple of days.  I wrote a lot of hand coded G code 
over the summer to make that happen, along with building production jigs 
and fixture plates.


I love automation.  I have some programs that run for seven hours, 
making several hundred parts while I'm asleep.  I've only recently been 
reaping the benefits of CNC.  There was a lengthy phase when I wasn't 
saving much time with unattended CNC machining because I'd just stand 
there staring at the CNC machining while thinking, "This is so cool."


I'm already looking forward to my next LinuxCNC project.  It feels like 
small business is my excuse to justify my geeky aspirations and CNC 
addiction.


Huge thanks to those who made LinuxCNC the incredible tool it is today.






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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received?

[Nicklas Karlsson]

Probably not, I have done quite a lot of search on Internet, have a few books 
and have taken two courses specifically in the area but if you have readily 
available I could always take a look.

I find a lot of documents about PID controllers and theory using bode, nyquist 
diagrams.

I found state space feedback and bode, nyquist diagram are useful also for 
state feedback but then state space model is available I prefer method to 
calculate gains using the model. I could do state space feedback including 
integral action but get the feeling a chapter or so is missing, maybe I have to 
write it myself.


Regards, Nicklas Karlsson



> I didn't get to that point at the university. Between the work and other
> things I'm taking it at a slow pace. But I have some PDFs about control
> theory that may help.
> 
> El vie., 19 oct. 2018 a las 14:41, Nicklas Karlsson (<
> nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com>) escribió:
> 
> > I am still here, working on control theory right now. Anybody who have a
> > taken any courses of in control theory on University?
> >
> > On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 14:36:59 -0300
> > Leonardo Marsaglia  wrote:
> >
> > > Same here, the list is very quiet but I'm receiving everything from this
> > > topic.
> > >
> > > El vie., 19 oct. 2018 a las 12:04, andy pugh ()
> > > escribió:
> > >
> > > > On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 at 15:32, Peter Blodow  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I haven't got any mail from this list since Oct.10th. How come?
> > > >
> > > > It does seem odd.
> > > >
> > > > The mail server thingy doesn't think that there have been any
> > > > messages, but it might be wrong:
> > > >
> > > > https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/emc-users/?viewmonth=201810
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > atp
> > > > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > > > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > > > lunatics."
> > > > — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> 
> ___
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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received?

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

I didn't get to that point at the university. Between the work and other
things I'm taking it at a slow pace. But I have some PDFs about control
theory that may help.

El vie., 19 oct. 2018 a las 14:41, Nicklas Karlsson (<
nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com>) escribió:

> I am still here, working on control theory right now. Anybody who have a
> taken any courses of in control theory on University?
>
> On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 14:36:59 -0300
> Leonardo Marsaglia  wrote:
>
> > Same here, the list is very quiet but I'm receiving everything from this
> > topic.
> >
> > El vie., 19 oct. 2018 a las 12:04, andy pugh ()
> > escribió:
> >
> > > On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 at 15:32, Peter Blodow  wrote:
> > >
> > > > I haven't got any mail from this list since Oct.10th. How come?
> > >
> > > It does seem odd.
> > >
> > > The mail server thingy doesn't think that there have been any
> > > messages, but it might be wrong:
> > >
> > > https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/emc-users/?viewmonth=201810
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > atp
> > > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > > lunatics."
> > > — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received?

[Nicklas Karlsson]

I am still here, working on control theory right now. Anybody who have a taken 
any courses of in control theory on University?

On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 14:36:59 -0300
Leonardo Marsaglia  wrote:

> Same here, the list is very quiet but I'm receiving everything from this
> topic.
> 
> El vie., 19 oct. 2018 a las 12:04, andy pugh ()
> escribió:
> 
> > On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 at 15:32, Peter Blodow  wrote:
> >
> > > I haven't got any mail from this list since Oct.10th. How come?
> >
> > It does seem odd.
> >
> > The mail server thingy doesn't think that there have been any
> > messages, but it might be wrong:
> >
> > https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/emc-users/?viewmonth=201810
> >
> >
> > --
> > atp
> > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > lunatics."
> > — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received?

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

Same here, the list is very quiet but I'm receiving everything from this
topic.

El vie., 19 oct. 2018 a las 12:04, andy pugh ()
escribió:

> On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 at 15:32, Peter Blodow  wrote:
>
> > I haven't got any mail from this list since Oct.10th. How come?
>
> It does seem odd.
>
> The mail server thingy doesn't think that there have been any
> messages, but it might be wrong:
>
> https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/emc-users/?viewmonth=201810
>
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
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>

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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received?

[andy pugh]

On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 at 15:32, Peter Blodow  wrote:

> I haven't got any mail from this list since Oct.10th. How come?

It does seem odd.

The mail server thingy doesn't think that there have been any
messages, but it might be wrong:

https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/emc-users/?viewmonth=201810


-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received?

[Todd Zuercher]

Probably everyone is too busy earning a living to play with their LinuxCNC 
projects. 

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street 
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Peter Blodow  
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 10:15 AM
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: [Emc-users] No mail received?

Gentlemen,
I haven't got any mail from this list since Oct.10th. How come? Is there 
something wrong with the EMC server, or is it my provider? Or are there no more 
problems (or successes) to report?

Peter


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