Re: [Emc-users] hydraulic servo system
On 27 September 2013 03:04, Dave Cole linuxcncro...@gmail.com wrote: http://en.revija-ventil.si/data/strokovni-clanki/17-2011-4/situm.pdf They seem to be rather re-inventing the wheel. Servo-hydraulic tension-compression fatigue testing machines are all like that, and have been running closed-loop in force or displacement mode (with auto-switching to displacement control on specimen fracture) for decades. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60133471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] hydraulic servo system
Nothing in that article is new other than possibly the use of a PLC for that kind of control without the use of a specific card designed for hydraulic control. Most PLC Hydraulic Servo controls setups require a special hardware card to do what they are doing.. and usually it is very expensive. Allen Bradley's Hydraulic control card is about $2500 for 1 axis. For a PLC, the S7-1200 PID loop is quite fast. But compared to LinuxCNC .. pretty much a dog. Looking at the article again, I have no idea why they published that. A lot of University Profs have to publish periodically as a condition of their employement. But it does make for an example fo hydraulic force and position control. I just wanted to include this in the discussion so Stuart could see an implementation similar to what he needs. Dave On 9/27/2013 5:17 AM, andy pugh wrote: On 27 September 2013 03:04, Dave Cole linuxcncro...@gmail.com wrote: http://en.revija-ventil.si/data/strokovni-clanki/17-2011-4/situm.pdf They seem to be rather re-inventing the wheel. Servo-hydraulic tension-compression fatigue testing machines are all like that, and have been running closed-loop in force or displacement mode (with auto-switching to displacement control on specimen fracture) for decades. -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60133471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] hydraulic servo system
Stuart, I was looking for something else entirely on the web and ran into this by accident. This is very close to what you want to do. http://en.revija-ventil.si/data/strokovni-clanki/17-2011-4/situm.pdf I use a lot of S7-1200 PLCs but I think that all of this could be done with LinuxCNC. Balluff makes Micropulse position sensors. Dave On 9/23/2013 5:06 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: On Sep 23, 2013 3:11 PM, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote: On 23 September 2013 20:50, Stuart Stevenson stus...@gmail.com wrote: 2 cylinders - one on each end 500 ton 20' brake press I need to control each end separately. I have a feeling that I have seen the machine? Your feeling would be correct. The 20 ton testing machine I ran could do 36 inches per second running with a Moog valve. Given that you probably don't want that speed, I think that they would still be an option. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60133471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60133471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60133471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] hydraulic servo system
On 23 September 2013 03:50, Stuart Stevenson stus...@gmail.com wrote: Gentlemen, I want to control a hydraulic cylinder (extension and retraction) with LinuxCNC. I want to use an axial piston swash plate pump. I want to control the swash plate with a servo motor. This ought to work, but it isn't the usual way to do it. The servo-hydraulic machines I used to work with (and that are used extensively on the vehicle test rigs) use a Moog valve to divert pressure to one side or the other of the cylinder. The pump runs under closed-loop pressure control (I think). http://www.moog.com/literature/ICD/RCE18N11_Moog-LOW.pdf Looks like a reasonable description, albeit from a motorsport rather than industrial perspective. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- LIMITED TIME SALE - Full Year of Microsoft Training For Just $49.99! 1,500+ hours of tutorials including VisualStudio 2012, Windows 8, SharePoint 2013, SQL 2012, MVC 4, more. BEST VALUE: New Multi-Library Power Pack includes Mobile, Cloud, Java, and UX Design. Lowest price ever! Ends 9/20/13. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=58041151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] hydraulic servo system
On Sun, Sep 22, 2013 at 10:50 PM, Stuart Stevenson stus...@gmail.com wrote: Gentlemen, I want to control a hydraulic cylinder (extension and retraction) with LinuxCNC. I want to use an axial piston swash plate pump. I want to control the swash plate with a servo motor. This method has been used, albeit with a servo valve instead of a servo motor. In fact, I think it might even be fairly common. I think a servovalve is going to outperform a servo motor and will be cheaper. Although if you use a linear scale the hunting will drive you crazy with a valve. Moog has gone into this business with their linear actuators. -- LIMITED TIME SALE - Full Year of Microsoft Training For Just $49.99! 1,500+ hours of tutorials including VisualStudio 2012, Windows 8, SharePoint 2013, SQL 2012, MVC 4, more. BEST VALUE: New Multi-Library Power Pack includes Mobile, Cloud, Java, and UX Design. Lowest price ever! Ends 9/20/13. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=58041151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] hydraulic servo system
I agree with Andy. I do quite a few industrial control jobs using hydraulic servos.The normal setup is a swash plate pump that is self pressure regulated feeding an accumulator (for pump efficiency and fast response) and that feeds a 4 way servo valve or servo grade proportional valve. That drives the cylinder. A feedback device, usually a temposonics type device or a linear pot, provide position feedback. If the cylinder is not going to move very fast and you have a big enough pump (servo valves don't like pressure variations since it destabilizes the PID loops) then you can oftentimes get away from the accumulator. But accumulators make the system a lot more efficient in that you can use a smaller pump and still move the cylinder quickly without a big pressure drop. If you want to move fast, the valve needs to be mounted very close to the cylinder. I'd keep an eye on Ebay for servo valves. Most people don't know what to do with them. About two years ago I did a railroad service vehicle control job that drills concrete railroad ties and I used two PCs running LinuxCNC that controlled 4 proportional valves to control position and pressure on 4 drill cylinders. Each drill cylinder moved 2 drills up and down. I wasn't doing precise closed loop position control but I used 4 temposonics tranducers with analog outputs to close the position loop on the cylinders. The proportional valves I used were ok, as in they allowed the machine to drill automatically but in hindsight I should have used better valves since the positioning aspects of the valves could have been better. Parker and Moog make some really nice valves which I have used on some PLC related jobs. I used Mesa components to do all of the Analog I/O for the positioning loops and stepper motor control as there was also 12 stepper motors used to position the 8 drills. It was a very complicated machine. Everything was powered off a Kubota diesel engine as the entire machine can drive the railroad tracks under its own power. It was a fun job, but a lot of work - too much in too short of time. :-) Dave On 9/23/2013 7:01 AM, andy pugh wrote: On 23 September 2013 03:50, Stuart Stevenson stus...@gmail.com wrote: Gentlemen, I want to control a hydraulic cylinder (extension and retraction) with LinuxCNC. I want to use an axial piston swash plate pump. I want to control the swash plate with a servo motor. This ought to work, but it isn't the usual way to do it. The servo-hydraulic machines I used to work with (and that are used extensively on the vehicle test rigs) use a Moog valve to divert pressure to one side or the other of the cylinder. The pump runs under closed-loop pressure control (I think). http://www.moog.com/literature/ICD/RCE18N11_Moog-LOW.pdf Looks like a reasonable description, albeit from a motorsport rather than industrial perspective. -- LIMITED TIME SALE - Full Year of Microsoft Training For Just $49.99! 1,500+ hours of tutorials including VisualStudio 2012, Windows 8, SharePoint 2013, SQL 2012, MVC 4, more. BEST VALUE: New Multi-Library Power Pack includes Mobile, Cloud, Java, and UX Design. Lowest price ever! Ends 9/20/13. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=58041151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] hydraulic servo system
The cylinders I want to control are 14 inch OD which I think would have 13.5 piston. 24 inch minimum stroke (maybe a little more) 1 1/2 pipe input on the rod side of the piston 2 inch pipe on the other side I need it to extend out in about 10 seconds. the leverage is 5 to 1 - 70/14 measured with a tape measure On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 10:53 AM, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote: On 23 September 2013 15:24, Dave Cole linuxcncro...@gmail.com wrote: I'd keep an eye on Ebay for servo valves. Most people don't know what to do with them. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Actuator-hydraulic-flight-simulator-48-stroke-with-Moog-72-315-/15024528 All set up and ready to go. (and he has 4 of them) -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- LIMITED TIME SALE - Full Year of Microsoft Training For Just $49.99! 1,500+ hours of tutorials including VisualStudio 2012, Windows 8, SharePoint 2013, SQL 2012, MVC 4, more. BEST VALUE: New Multi-Library Power Pack includes Mobile, Cloud, Java, and UX Design. Lowest price ever! Ends 9/20/13. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=58041151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Addressee is the intended audience. If you are not the addressee then my consent is not given for you to read this email furthermore it is my wish you would close this without saving or reading, and cease and desist from saving or opening my private correspondence. Thank you for honoring my wish. Just for you NSA - think autointercourse terrorist suitcase bomb sarin hello -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60133471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] hydraulic servo system
On 23 September 2013 15:24, Dave Cole linuxcncro...@gmail.com wrote: I'd keep an eye on Ebay for servo valves. Most people don't know what to do with them. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Actuator-hydraulic-flight-simulator-48-stroke-with-Moog-72-315-/15024528 All set up and ready to go. (and he has 4 of them) -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- LIMITED TIME SALE - Full Year of Microsoft Training For Just $49.99! 1,500+ hours of tutorials including VisualStudio 2012, Windows 8, SharePoint 2013, SQL 2012, MVC 4, more. BEST VALUE: New Multi-Library Power Pack includes Mobile, Cloud, Java, and UX Design. Lowest price ever! Ends 9/20/13. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=58041151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] hydraulic servo system
On Mon, 2013-09-23 at 13:57 -0500, Stuart Stevenson wrote: The cylinders I want to control are 14 inch OD which I think would have 13.5 piston. 24 inch minimum stroke (maybe a little more) 1 1/2 pipe input on the rod side of the piston 2 inch pipe on the other side I need it to extend out in about 10 seconds. the leverage is 5 to 1 - 70/14 measured with a tape measure I note that cylinders is plural. I assume that is intentional. How many cylinders? @ 55 L/stroke? Pressure? Clearly not a wimpy application. ;-) Sounds like fun. Dave On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 10:53 AM, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote: On 23 September 2013 15:24, Dave Cole linuxcncro...@gmail.com wrote: I'd keep an eye on Ebay for servo valves. Most people don't know what to do with them. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Actuator-hydraulic-flight-simulator-48-stroke-with-Moog-72-315-/15024528 All set up and ready to go. (and he has 4 of them) -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- LIMITED TIME SALE - Full Year of Microsoft Training For Just $49.99! 1,500+ hours of tutorials including VisualStudio 2012, Windows 8, SharePoint 2013, SQL 2012, MVC 4, more. BEST VALUE: New Multi-Library Power Pack includes Mobile, Cloud, Java, and UX Design. Lowest price ever! Ends 9/20/13. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=58041151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60133471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] hydraulic servo system
2 cylinders - one on each end 500 ton 20' brake press I need to control each end separately. On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 2:32 PM, dave dengv...@charter.net wrote: On Mon, 2013-09-23 at 13:57 -0500, Stuart Stevenson wrote: The cylinders I want to control are 14 inch OD which I think would have 13.5 piston. 24 inch minimum stroke (maybe a little more) 1 1/2 pipe input on the rod side of the piston 2 inch pipe on the other side I need it to extend out in about 10 seconds. the leverage is 5 to 1 - 70/14 measured with a tape measure I note that cylinders is plural. I assume that is intentional. How many cylinders? @ 55 L/stroke? Pressure? Clearly not a wimpy application. ;-) Sounds like fun. Dave On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 10:53 AM, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote: On 23 September 2013 15:24, Dave Cole linuxcncro...@gmail.com wrote: I'd keep an eye on Ebay for servo valves. Most people don't know what to do with them. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Actuator-hydraulic-flight-simulator-48-stroke-with-Moog-72-315-/15024528 All set up and ready to go. (and he has 4 of them) -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- LIMITED TIME SALE - Full Year of Microsoft Training For Just $49.99! 1,500+ hours of tutorials including VisualStudio 2012, Windows 8, SharePoint 2013, SQL 2012, MVC 4, more. BEST VALUE: New Multi-Library Power Pack includes Mobile, Cloud, Java, and UX Design. Lowest price ever! Ends 9/20/13. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=58041151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60133471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Addressee is the intended audience. If you are not the addressee then my consent is not given for you to read this email furthermore it is my wish you would close this without saving or reading, and cease and desist from saving or opening my private correspondence. Thank you for honoring my wish. Just for you NSA - think autointercourse terrorist suitcase bomb sarin hello -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60133471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] hydraulic servo system
pic here - http://imagebin.org/271728 On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Stuart Stevenson stus...@gmail.com wrote: 2 cylinders - one on each end 500 ton 20' brake press I need to control each end separately. On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 2:32 PM, dave dengv...@charter.net wrote: On Mon, 2013-09-23 at 13:57 -0500, Stuart Stevenson wrote: The cylinders I want to control are 14 inch OD which I think would have 13.5 piston. 24 inch minimum stroke (maybe a little more) 1 1/2 pipe input on the rod side of the piston 2 inch pipe on the other side I need it to extend out in about 10 seconds. the leverage is 5 to 1 - 70/14 measured with a tape measure I note that cylinders is plural. I assume that is intentional. How many cylinders? @ 55 L/stroke? Pressure? Clearly not a wimpy application. ;-) Sounds like fun. Dave On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 10:53 AM, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote: On 23 September 2013 15:24, Dave Cole linuxcncro...@gmail.com wrote: I'd keep an eye on Ebay for servo valves. Most people don't know what to do with them. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Actuator-hydraulic-flight-simulator-48-stroke-with-Moog-72-315-/15024528 All set up and ready to go. (and he has 4 of them) -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- LIMITED TIME SALE - Full Year of Microsoft Training For Just $49.99! 1,500+ hours of tutorials including VisualStudio 2012, Windows 8, SharePoint 2013, SQL 2012, MVC 4, more. BEST VALUE: New Multi-Library Power Pack includes Mobile, Cloud, Java, and UX Design. Lowest price ever! Ends 9/20/13. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=58041151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60133471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Addressee is the intended audience. If you are not the addressee then my consent is not given for you to read this email furthermore it is my wish you would close this without saving or reading, and cease and desist from saving or opening my private correspondence. Thank you for honoring my wish. Just for you NSA - think autointercourse terrorist suitcase bomb sarin hello -- Addressee is the intended audience. If you are not the addressee then my consent is not given for you to read this email furthermore it is my wish you would close this without saving or reading, and cease and desist from saving or opening my private correspondence. Thank you for honoring my wish. Just for you NSA - think autointercourse terrorist suitcase bomb sarin hello -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60133471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] hydraulic servo system
On 23 September 2013 20:50, Stuart Stevenson stus...@gmail.com wrote: 2 cylinders - one on each end 500 ton 20' brake press I need to control each end separately. I have a feeling that I have seen the machine? The 20 ton testing machine I ran could do 36 inches per second running with a Moog valve. Given that you probably don't want that speed, I think that they would still be an option. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60133471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] hydraulic servo system
On Sep 23, 2013 3:11 PM, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote: On 23 September 2013 20:50, Stuart Stevenson stus...@gmail.com wrote: 2 cylinders - one on each end 500 ton 20' brake press I need to control each end separately. I have a feeling that I have seen the machine? Your feeling would be correct. The 20 ton testing machine I ran could do 36 inches per second running with a Moog valve. Given that you probably don't want that speed, I think that they would still be an option. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60133471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60133471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] hydraulic servo system
I just did the controls for a hydraulic press - a new machine that swages 6 stainless steel anchors about 3/4 diameter at the same time. It has an 8 cylinder on it and they are running about 2800 PSI system pressure. The press is quick as there is a 25 hp motor on it with a 10 gallon accumulator.It uses a self regulating swash plate pump.We just finished it up last week and it is making thousands of parts per day now. This machine has a lot of safety features on it. It has a U shaped lock that engages the ram when it is up so the operator can pull the parts out without fear of having their hands crushed. There is a light curtain and a couple of safety relays that monitor the machine as it runs. We aren't using a servo valve. Just a big 4 way valve controlled by a small Siemens S7-1200 PLC. There is a pressure sensor on the back of the cylinder and when the cylinder comes down and stalls against the parts, (sensed by the pressure sensor) I start a timer and hold the cylinder down for about 1.5 seconds (so the metal can flow) and then retract the cylinder.You might be able to do the same thing. You could probably use one big valve. But if you want to carefully control tonnage a Servo Grade Proportional valve is the way to go.. You could actually ease the pressure on until you were happy with the bend and then push a switch to reverse the cylinders. Those cylinders are so big that you might be able to use a couple of 4 way hydraulic valves with orifices in the right place to limit flow and the rate of tonnage buildup. Do you want to do air bending? If so perhaps a couple of limit switches would be a better way to reverse the cylinders since the desired tonnage would not really be known. Or you could logically combine tonnage, and ram position? Dave On 9/23/2013 5:06 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: On Sep 23, 2013 3:11 PM, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote: On 23 September 2013 20:50, Stuart Stevenson stus...@gmail.com wrote: 2 cylinders - one on each end 500 ton 20' brake press I need to control each end separately. I have a feeling that I have seen the machine? Your feeling would be correct. The 20 ton testing machine I ran could do 36 inches per second running with a Moog valve. Given that you probably don't want that speed, I think that they would still be an option. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60133471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60133471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60133471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] hydraulic servo system
On Mon, 9/23/13, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote: Subject: Re: [Emc-users] hydraulic servo system To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Date: Monday, September 23, 2013, 9:53 AM On 23 September 2013 15:24, Dave Cole linuxcncro...@gmail.com wrote: I'd keep an eye on Ebay for servo valves. Most people don't know what to do with them. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Actuator-hydraulic-flight-simulator-48-stroke-with-Moog-72-315-/15024528 All set up and ready to go. (and he has 4 of them) --- Too bad there aren't six of them to build a 6DOF table. -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60133471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] hydraulic servo system
air bending mostly Why would ram position not be sufficient for air bending? Would tonnage be more important when coining? I want to control both sides so I have the option of easily bending one end more than the other. On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 4:32 PM, Dave Cole linuxcncro...@gmail.com wrote: I just did the controls for a hydraulic press - a new machine that swages 6 stainless steel anchors about 3/4 diameter at the same time. It has an 8 cylinder on it and they are running about 2800 PSI system pressure. The press is quick as there is a 25 hp motor on it with a 10 gallon accumulator.It uses a self regulating swash plate pump.We just finished it up last week and it is making thousands of parts per day now. This machine has a lot of safety features on it. It has a U shaped lock that engages the ram when it is up so the operator can pull the parts out without fear of having their hands crushed. There is a light curtain and a couple of safety relays that monitor the machine as it runs. We aren't using a servo valve. Just a big 4 way valve controlled by a small Siemens S7-1200 PLC. There is a pressure sensor on the back of the cylinder and when the cylinder comes down and stalls against the parts, (sensed by the pressure sensor) I start a timer and hold the cylinder down for about 1.5 seconds (so the metal can flow) and then retract the cylinder.You might be able to do the same thing. You could probably use one big valve. But if you want to carefully control tonnage a Servo Grade Proportional valve is the way to go.. You could actually ease the pressure on until you were happy with the bend and then push a switch to reverse the cylinders. Those cylinders are so big that you might be able to use a couple of 4 way hydraulic valves with orifices in the right place to limit flow and the rate of tonnage buildup. Do you want to do air bending? If so perhaps a couple of limit switches would be a better way to reverse the cylinders since the desired tonnage would not really be known. Or you could logically combine tonnage, and ram position? Dave On 9/23/2013 5:06 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: On Sep 23, 2013 3:11 PM, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote: On 23 September 2013 20:50, Stuart Stevenson stus...@gmail.com wrote: 2 cylinders - one on each end 500 ton 20' brake press I need to control each end separately. I have a feeling that I have seen the machine? Your feeling would be correct. The 20 ton testing machine I ran could do 36 inches per second running with a Moog valve. Given that you probably don't want that speed, I think that they would still be an option. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60133471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60133471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60133471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Addressee is the intended audience. If you are not the addressee then my consent is not given for you to read this email furthermore it is my wish you would close this without saving or reading, and cease and desist from saving or opening my private correspondence. Thank you for honoring my wish. Just for you NSA - think autointercourse terrorist suitcase bomb sarin hello
Re: [Emc-users] hydraulic servo system
Why would ram position not be sufficient for air bending? I think that would work, but I would probably also want to know cylinder pressure so I could set tonnage limits in an attempt to prevent breakage if something goes wrong. Decent pressure sensors are 2-$300 each. Cheap insurance compared to everything else. So you really need a servo grade proportional valves and a position feedback device for each cylinder, so you can setup a position loop for each cylinder. I used some big Parker valves a while back that where being fed by a 20 hp pump, with 2000 psi system pressure and I think the valve alone was in the $1600 range. If you can find a couple of 10 gallon accumulators, that would really increase the speed of the machine. Dave On 9/23/2013 6:08 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: air bending mostly Why would ram position not be sufficient for air bending? Would tonnage be more important when coining? I want to control both sides so I have the option of easily bending one end more than the other. On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 4:32 PM, Dave Cole linuxcncro...@gmail.com wrote: I just did the controls for a hydraulic press - a new machine that swages 6 stainless steel anchors about 3/4 diameter at the same time. It has an 8 cylinder on it and they are running about 2800 PSI system pressure. The press is quick as there is a 25 hp motor on it with a 10 gallon accumulator.It uses a self regulating swash plate pump.We just finished it up last week and it is making thousands of parts per day now. This machine has a lot of safety features on it. It has a U shaped lock that engages the ram when it is up so the operator can pull the parts out without fear of having their hands crushed. There is a light curtain and a couple of safety relays that monitor the machine as it runs. We aren't using a servo valve. Just a big 4 way valve controlled by a small Siemens S7-1200 PLC. There is a pressure sensor on the back of the cylinder and when the cylinder comes down and stalls against the parts, (sensed by the pressure sensor) I start a timer and hold the cylinder down for about 1.5 seconds (so the metal can flow) and then retract the cylinder.You might be able to do the same thing. You could probably use one big valve. But if you want to carefully control tonnage a Servo Grade Proportional valve is the way to go.. You could actually ease the pressure on until you were happy with the bend and then push a switch to reverse the cylinders. Those cylinders are so big that you might be able to use a couple of 4 way hydraulic valves with orifices in the right place to limit flow and the rate of tonnage buildup. Do you want to do air bending? If so perhaps a couple of limit switches would be a better way to reverse the cylinders since the desired tonnage would not really be known. Or you could logically combine tonnage, and ram position? Dave On 9/23/2013 5:06 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: On Sep 23, 2013 3:11 PM, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote: On 23 September 2013 20:50, Stuart Stevenson stus...@gmail.com wrote: 2 cylinders - one on each end 500 ton 20' brake press I need to control each end separately. I have a feeling that I have seen the machine? Your feeling would be correct. The 20 ton testing machine I ran could do 36 inches per second running with a Moog valve. Given that you probably don't want that speed, I think that they would still be an option. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60133471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60133471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get
Re: [Emc-users] hydraulic servo system
On 09/23/2013 06:01 AM, andy pugh wrote: On 23 September 2013 03:50, Stuart Stevenson stus...@gmail.com wrote: Gentlemen, I want to control a hydraulic cylinder (extension and retraction) with LinuxCNC. I want to use an axial piston swash plate pump. I want to control the swash plate with a servo motor. Yes, Pegasus and Moog valves ran the heads on all old EDM machines. a small coil shifted the spool to divert pressure from one side to another in the driven piston. Locking the flow locks the axis. Operates on +/- 10V ( some on 20ma ) control signals. HTH TomP tjtr33 -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60133471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] hydraulic servo system
Stuart Stevenson wrote: Gentlemen, I want to control a hydraulic cylinder (extension and retraction) with LinuxCNC. I want to use an axial piston swash plate pump. I want to control the swash plate with a servo motor. The null position on the pump may not be completely repeatable. Also, the difference between zero output and minimal output may involve a jump that would make a servo a bit unstable. The cylinder may have some amount of stick-slip friction in the seals, and any air that gets in the system may cause position to fluctuate. It OUGHT to work, in general, especially since you don't need really tight position control. The more worn the pump is, the worse the whole system will perform, due to a sort of backlash in the pump mechanism. Jon -- LIMITED TIME SALE - Full Year of Microsoft Training For Just $49.99! 1,500+ hours of tutorials including VisualStudio 2012, Windows 8, SharePoint 2013, SQL 2012, MVC 4, more. BEST VALUE: New Multi-Library Power Pack includes Mobile, Cloud, Java, and UX Design. Lowest price ever! Ends 9/20/13. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=58041151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] hydraulic servo system
On Sun, 9/22/13, Stuart Stevenson stus...@gmail.com wrote: Gentlemen, I want to control a hydraulic cylinder (extension and retraction) with LinuxCNC. I want to use an axial piston swash plate pump. I want to control the swash plate with a servo motor. I will install a linear scale for position feedback. The actuator/end effector ratio is at least 5:1 so the scale would not need to be super high resolution. Has anyone done this? What are the problems? thanks Stuart If there's a fixed relationship between rotations of the pump and extension/retraction of the cylinder, you could put a rotary encoder on the pump or motor and simple limit switches on the cylinder. That'd only work in a constant volume system without any leakdown while running. If it leaks down while at rest, to the point where the cylinder fully retracts or extends so that the limit switch is triggered, the control system would know where things are when started. Otherwise it'd need to home the cylinder to the switch before commencing regular operation if the cylinder doesn't stay exactly in place with the control system off. If the cylinder isn't used in an environment where the linear scale could be damaged, then any 'slippage' in the hydraulics wouldn't matter. Just run the pump as needed to get the linear encoder to the desired position. Another possibility is putting the encoder on whatever load it is the hydraulic cylinder is moving. If it's tilting a hinged plate the encoder could be mounted between the plate and its non-moving base or put a rotary one right at the hinge. If you just need the cylinder to shift between two points without any need for position control in between, it wouldn't need an encoder, just a couple of limit switches that communicate it has reached one or the other. As a failsafe use a time out so that if it doesn't cycle in the expected time the system will shut down. I like the concept of directly measuring the movement instead of measuring the input and expecting the rest of the mechanism from there to the other end to always be accurate and functioning. -- LIMITED TIME SALE - Full Year of Microsoft Training For Just $49.99! 1,500+ hours of tutorials including VisualStudio 2012, Windows 8, SharePoint 2013, SQL 2012, MVC 4, more. BEST VALUE: New Multi-Library Power Pack includes Mobile, Cloud, Java, and UX Design. Lowest price ever! Ends 9/20/13. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=58041151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
