Re: [EVDL] Toyota FCV runs on Musk's bull$$it
Sure, that question has merit. I only answered his first question. But the emissions I was particularly referring to were combustion emissions at the tailpipe...not CO2 emissions, which certainly are of relevance. But when the ZEV standards were adopted, the driver was nonattainment criteria pollutants. Efficiency certainly has bearing on GHGs, cost and other things, but is not the be all, end all. Or the hobbyists on this list would be arguing incessantly about ...everything. Clearly, at the tailpipe, nat gas v. H2 is some emission number I don't know off the top of my head versus zero. I guess if you go want to go beyond that you might assume worse case (?) that the cars are in the SCAQMD and the H2 is all produced by steam reformation in-basin. I don't know what that number looks like, but I'll bet it's still a huge advantage to use H2. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 23, 2015, at 7:59 PM, Mike Nickerson m...@nickersonranch.com wrote: I think Ben's question still has merit, though. If you start with methane and take it down two paths, what is the difference in emissions and efficiency? The first path is burning the methane in an ICE. The second path is converting the methane to hydrogen and using it in a fuel cell. It seems like the hydrogen conversion is still likely to create CO2. How does the hydrogen cycle reduce air pollution from using methane? Mike On April 23, 2015 7:28:17 PM MDT, Mark Abramowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Apr 23, 2015, at 3:57 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Um...why not just use that methane as is? I mean, we already do -- every vehicle with a CNG or LNG sticker on it is burning methane. To reduce air pollution. That's why CARB adopted the ZEV mandate. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Toyota FCV runs on Musk's bull$$it
Mark, That is a very bold statement and I have heard such dismissive hand-waiving before, so I am not going to accept that on its face, I challenge you to support that with data. As someone else said: as soon as you have combustible gas (methane) any further processing is going to reduce the amount of available energy, so with every step after the point that there is raw Methane produced, you are making it harder to even be energy-neutral for H2. Does this matter? You bet! Efficiency is what eventually will dictate the cost (price) of H2, so let alone the investment in the car (fuel cell) there are the running costs. If the H2 car cannot compete in running costs (efficiency) then why would anyone get such a beast and bother with the lack of infrastructure? For CNG, it is already distributed to almost every home in the country. It is very simple to make a home-filling station for a CNG car, besides refueling at dedicated sites. The situation with H2 is (and will be for many years, hopefully forever) be very different. I doubt that H2 is more energy efficient than turning the Methane into electricity and recharging a BEV, but let's see the data. And it may be interesting to compare that to solutions such as a CNG internal combustion vehicle and to a Methane-burning capstone turbine Hybrid EV such as Wrightspeed is making these days (for larger commercial trucks). Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.comPrivate: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130 Tel: +1 408 383 7626Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 -Original Message- From: EV on behalf of Mark Abramowitz via EV Sent: Thu 4/23/2015 11:35 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Toyota FCV runs on Musk's bull$$it Sure, that question has merit. I only answered his first question. But the emissions I was particularly referring to were combustion emissions at the tailpipe...not CO2 emissions, which certainly are of relevance. But when the ZEV standards were adopted, the driver was nonattainment criteria pollutants. Efficiency certainly has bearing on GHGs, cost and other things, but is not the be all, end all. Or the hobbyists on this list would be arguing incessantly about ...everything. Clearly, at the tailpipe, nat gas v. H2 is some emission number I don't know off the top of my head versus zero. I guess if you go want to go beyond that you might assume worse case (?) that the cars are in the SCAQMD and the H2 is all produced by steam reformation in-basin. I don't know what that number looks like, but I'll bet it's still a huge advantage to use H2. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 23, 2015, at 7:59 PM, Mike Nickerson m...@nickersonranch.com wrote: I think Ben's question still has merit, though. If you start with methane and take it down two paths, what is the difference in emissions and efficiency? The first path is burning the methane in an ICE. The second path is converting the methane to hydrogen and using it in a fuel cell. It seems like the hydrogen conversion is still likely to create CO2. How does the hydrogen cycle reduce air pollution from using methane? Mike On April 23, 2015 7:28:17 PM MDT, Mark Abramowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Apr 23, 2015, at 3:57 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Um...why not just use that methane as is? I mean, we already do -- every vehicle with a CNG or LNG sticker on it is burning methane. To reduce air pollution. That's why CARB adopted the ZEV mandate. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 5106 bytes Desc: not available URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150424/4cabd8ec/attachment.bin ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] EVLN: 2014 e-NV200 (Cargo Version) Review
https://transportevolved.com/2015/04/18/2014-nissan-e-nv200-review/ Review: 2014 Nissan e-NV200 Electric Van (Cargo Version) April 18, 2015 By Michael Thwaite [images https://d290b3p3ki7y5s.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/2014-Nissan-e-NV200.jpg Delivered clean and White https://d290b3p3ki7y5s.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/2014-Nissan-e-NV200-wide-opening-rear-doors.jpg Wide opening rear doors offer easy access https://d290b3p3ki7y5s.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/2014-Nissan-e-NV200-dash-instruments.jpg Instruments and centre stack showing Carwings navigation unit https://d290b3p3ki7y5s.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/2014-Nissan-e-NV200-instruments.jpg 2014 Nissan e-NV200 instruments https://d290b3p3ki7y5s.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Nissan-Carwings-online-energy-monitoring.png Nissan Carwings online energy monitoring https://d290b3p3ki7y5s.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/2014-Nissan-e-NV200-showing-view-of-charge-port.jpg Charge port door viewed from eye-level – it doesn’t really open up enough ] It’s been a while since this reviewer has driven a van but, needs must when you’re moving house and, what better way to tackle the move in something quite unique in the world of vans; the 2014 Nissan e-NV200 – an all-electric delivery van. Based on the Nissan NV200 van platform, the 80kW drivetrain and 24kWh battery for e-NV200 has been transplanted from cousin Leaf almost unchanged. The only notable difference being that the pack features active cooling in anticipation of its harder, frequent-fast-charging life. The underlying body, unlike the Leaf is also available in a range of traditional power plants – We had the opportunity to speak with an owner of a diesel powered NV200 who commended the basic version of the van for its versatility, performance and overall quality. Cargo space in the e-NV200 is 4.2 cubic metres (148 cubic feet) up to 770kg/1,700LB. The space is accessed through sliding doors on each side and wide opening rear doors. Inevitably, with this size of van, the wheel wells encroach a little. Driving the e-NV200 is a van first, EV second experience. The size is comparable to a medium to full-size SUV but with the driver sat upright and far forwards. Lack of a center rear-view mirror is amply compensated for by large folding side mirrors and an effective rear-view reversing camera that features steering angle gridlines and distance markings. No parking sensors was a surprise and we can’t help thinking that this vehicle would be a perfect platform for Nissan’s Around View Monitor® system – a camera pack that simulates a birds-eye view of the vehicle exposing any and all objects around the vehicle whilst maneuvering. Driving controls mimic a traditional drivetrain with artificial transmission creep and limited regenerative breaking on the accelerator. An EV driver friendly “B” driving mode increases the regenerative breaking on the accelerator making driving easier and more comfortable. Out on the road, the unladen e-NV200 is firm and a little bouncy but that’s to be expected. Once loaded, it quickly hunkers down and becomes more compliant. Handling is surprisingly good with very quick steering, powerful brakes and most of all, effortless take-off. Unladen, the vans is really quick in traffic, 0-40mph is near hot-hatch fun, its extra 50kg/100Lb weight over the Leaf doesn’t seem to show too much. On the highway, it’s stable and predictable and remains punchy through to the legal limit. Where its electric power train really shines is how it behaves when it’s loaded… pretty much exactly the same. Where a traditional power train would need to rev up furiously up to deliver power, the electric drive train retains a serene dignity. Aimed at a very steep 20% grade, we tested a similar van from another manufacturer, unladen, it required second gear and a foot flat to the floor to manage little more than 25mph. The e-NV200 partially loaded flew up the same grade faster and without any of the trauma – nothing at all – windows open, the sound of birds tweeting in the distance – the gulf could not be any wider than the teeth chattering, ear splitting and terrified cattle scattering across the fields experience. The lack of noise pollution was also welcome each morning when we’d be up by 6am executing a tight three-point turn, moving the van from its charging spot to the street, right in the middle of suburbia – not a single net curtained twitched and no one lost a moments sleep. Range varied by speed more than load. Around town, 70-80 miles was typically the limit, out of town, hitting 60mph stretches, the range fell to the 60’s. Adding heat on a mild day only dented range by 5-10% at most – the heat pump doing its job well. Heated seats and optional heated steering wheel were very welcome and had no practical impact on range. Overall we managed 3.5-4.2 miles/kWh which we think is very respectable. Charging is also lifted
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: ElectraGirl: Electric e-NV200 Van Fun
A really good initial road test report and I hope they sell plenty of them. The price of £17,000 on the road complete with battery must make them cost effective and a must for local delivery fleets. Commonality with the Leaf is the way to go. No wonder the Ford Connect EV went belly up as they were £40,000 list and utterly un-competitive.. Russ On Fri, 24/4/15, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: ElectraGirl: Electric e-NV200 Van Fun To: ev@lists.evdl.org Date: Friday, 24 April, 2015, 10:25 https://transportevolved.com/2015/04/18/electragirl-electric-nissan-van-fun/ ElectraGirl: Electric Nissan Van Fun April 18, 2015 By ElectraGirl [images https://d290b3p3ki7y5s.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/2014-Nissan-e-NV200.jpg Delivered clean and White https://d290b3p3ki7y5s.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/2014-Nissan-e-NV200-dash-instruments.jpg Instruments and centre stack showing Carwings navigation unit https://d290b3p3ki7y5s.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/2014-Nissan-e-NV200-loaded-with-matress-below-and-belongings.jpg Lots of boot space with easy access through the side doors https://d290b3p3ki7y5s.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Waiting-at-the-charging-point.jpg Charging station EV'd https://d290b3p3ki7y5s.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/2014-Nissan-e-NV200-charging-at-an-ecotricity-station-e1429356470215.jpg Charging at an EcoTricity station ] A van I hear you say? Yes, a van! I know it’s all a bit weird and I haven’t been in a van for years let alone driven one, so it’s going to be a little different. I should just point out here what might be obvious, but just in case it isn’t – it is an Electric Van, which thinking about it is probably obvious, otherwise I wouldn’t be writing about it!! My sidekick is going to do that whole technical thingy and write up of the Nissan e-NV200 Electric Van while I do the rest. So why and how did we end up testing out the Nissan e-NV200 Electric Van? Well, it all started because we were going to be in the UK and spending three weeks there visiting family and helping my mum with her house move. We had been looking at the possibility of borrowing a camper van conversion but unfortunately that didn’t work out. Although, that would have been useful to stay in while the house move was going on. However, Nissan offered to lend us their e-NV200 Electric Van for a week and let us use it to help with the house move. Now, bear in mind that for two weeks of being in the UK we had, as always, been driving my mum’s Fiat Panda. And as always, thank you mum for letting us borrow your car. But when you are used to driving pure electric with all its quiet smoothness, getting into a Fiat Panda that’s rather herky, jerky is not much fun. You get to the point where you would happily accept the wub, wub noise of the tyres on the BMW i3 and consider that to be quiet! Oh dear! So, even the idea of an Electric Van was rather appealing, even though it was a van. What would it be like I wondered. When I first saw the van my first words were ‘It’s white!!!’ I mean, seriously a white van – how stereotypical (all vans seem to be white in the UK) and seriously, it’s white, of all the colours in all the world – it had to be white! Anyway after the initial shock of the colour it was off out to see what it was like. The van is just a basic van, two seats in the front and that’s it with plenty of boot space behind. I must say though it had two nice seats in the front, very comfy and nicely finished off. There was climate control and heated seats – two of! Cup holders and little spaces for this and that, rather nice for a van really. Oh, and Satellite Navigation. [image] Sheep and Lambs unfazed my the sight of a silent van Well, there is no getting around the fact that it is a van, but after the noisy Panda it was so quiet and smooth, no jerky gear changes. You are quite high up, which can have its advantages on those narrow back roads, as you can see above the hedges to see if any other vehicles are coming towards you. It is bouncy but again it is a van and I am also not sure how bouncy it actually was as the country roads around us are a bit bouncy anyway in any car. The roads are rather narrow too (one car width) at times, which we got to experience when we stopped for me to take a picture of the very cute lambs and a minute later there was another vehicle trying to drive along the road too! Hmm, how deep is that ditch there? It does have a fair amount of regen but not what we are used to in the BMW i3, it seems to give you more regen as the batteries warm up, which makes sense. It can climb the hills that the poor petrol car struggles significantly with, it’s just unfortunate if you get stuck behind a petrol car that is
[EVDL] EVLN: Plumber has free transport on tap w/ solar-charged e-NV200
http://nissaninsider.co.uk/plumber-has-free-transport-on-tap-with-e-nv200/
Plumber has free transport on tap with e-NV200
[2015/04]
[image
http://nissaninsider.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/APG-e-NV200-41.jpg
Peter Gerrard with one of APG’s new Nissan e-NV200s
]
A LEADING North West plumbing and heating company has miles of free, zero
emissions transport on tap after taking delivery of two all-electric Nissan
e-NV200 vans.
APG Domestic Services ordered the multi award-winning models – supplied by
Preston Nissan dealer Fred Coupe – for engineers operating across Lancashire
and Greater Manchester.
The Leyland-based company, which also specialises in renewables, has
installed solar panels to provide all the electricity needed to charge the
vehicles for free.
That’s allowed the company to replace two of its aging vans – a Vauxhall
Vivaro and Ford Transit Connect – with brand new Nissan e-NV200s with a full
manufacturer warranty and still save around £80 per month. It now plans to
gradually replace the remainder of its 17-strong fleet.
Peter Gerrard, Managing Director of APG Domestic Services, said: “There’s
really no down side for us.
“Most of our jobs are within a 40 miles radius of our offices – easily
within the range of the e-NV200 – and the fact we can reach them all for
free is saving the business a small fortune.”
He added: “In recent years we also moved into renewable technologies like
solar thermal and solar PV and having our engineers in a zero emissions
vehicle represents our business well and reflects our ethos.”
Launched last year, the Nissan e-NV200 combines the NV200 - a former
International Van of the Year - with the proven technology of the record
breaking Nissan LEAF – the world’s bestselling electric car.
In addition to ultra low running costs, users also benefit from low
maintenance costs that make for unrivalled total cost of ownership – £1,200
lower than a conventional diesel van over four years.
Meanwhile, the model, which is priced from £13,393 in panel van form
(incorporating PiVG) offers a class-leading 4.2m3 capacity and an impressive
703kg payload.
What’s more, the e-NV200 can cover 106* miles on a single charge and can be
charged from zero to 80% in as little as 30 minutes. Charged using mains
electricity rather than solar panels, the e-NV200 costs just two pence per
mile to run.
John Coupe, Director at Fred Coupe Nissan, said: “The Nissan e-NV200 is
perfect for businesses like APG Domestic Services.
“The unbeatable Total Cost of Ownership of the model means business van
users can replace aging and inefficient vehicles with a brand new, highly
specced and highly capable alternative and still save money.”
[© nissaninsider.co.uk]
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[EVDL] EVLN: ElectraGirl: Electric e-NV200 Van Fun
https://transportevolved.com/2015/04/18/electragirl-electric-nissan-van-fun/ ElectraGirl: Electric Nissan Van Fun April 18, 2015 By ElectraGirl [images https://d290b3p3ki7y5s.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/2014-Nissan-e-NV200.jpg Delivered clean and White https://d290b3p3ki7y5s.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/2014-Nissan-e-NV200-dash-instruments.jpg Instruments and centre stack showing Carwings navigation unit https://d290b3p3ki7y5s.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/2014-Nissan-e-NV200-loaded-with-matress-below-and-belongings.jpg Lots of boot space with easy access through the side doors https://d290b3p3ki7y5s.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Waiting-at-the-charging-point.jpg Charging station EV'd https://d290b3p3ki7y5s.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/2014-Nissan-e-NV200-charging-at-an-ecotricity-station-e1429356470215.jpg Charging at an EcoTricity station ] A van I hear you say? Yes, a van! I know it’s all a bit weird and I haven’t been in a van for years let alone driven one, so it’s going to be a little different. I should just point out here what might be obvious, but just in case it isn’t – it is an Electric Van, which thinking about it is probably obvious, otherwise I wouldn’t be writing about it!! My sidekick is going to do that whole technical thingy and write up of the Nissan e-NV200 Electric Van while I do the rest. So why and how did we end up testing out the Nissan e-NV200 Electric Van? Well, it all started because we were going to be in the UK and spending three weeks there visiting family and helping my mum with her house move. We had been looking at the possibility of borrowing a camper van conversion but unfortunately that didn’t work out. Although, that would have been useful to stay in while the house move was going on. However, Nissan offered to lend us their e-NV200 Electric Van for a week and let us use it to help with the house move. Now, bear in mind that for two weeks of being in the UK we had, as always, been driving my mum’s Fiat Panda. And as always, thank you mum for letting us borrow your car. But when you are used to driving pure electric with all its quiet smoothness, getting into a Fiat Panda that’s rather herky, jerky is not much fun. You get to the point where you would happily accept the wub, wub noise of the tyres on the BMW i3 and consider that to be quiet! Oh dear! So, even the idea of an Electric Van was rather appealing, even though it was a van. What would it be like I wondered. When I first saw the van my first words were ‘It’s white!!!’ I mean, seriously a white van – how stereotypical (all vans seem to be white in the UK) and seriously, it’s white, of all the colours in all the world – it had to be white! Anyway after the initial shock of the colour it was off out to see what it was like. The van is just a basic van, two seats in the front and that’s it with plenty of boot space behind. I must say though it had two nice seats in the front, very comfy and nicely finished off. There was climate control and heated seats – two of! Cup holders and little spaces for this and that, rather nice for a van really. Oh, and Satellite Navigation. [image] Sheep and Lambs unfazed my the sight of a silent van Well, there is no getting around the fact that it is a van, but after the noisy Panda it was so quiet and smooth, no jerky gear changes. You are quite high up, which can have its advantages on those narrow back roads, as you can see above the hedges to see if any other vehicles are coming towards you. It is bouncy but again it is a van and I am also not sure how bouncy it actually was as the country roads around us are a bit bouncy anyway in any car. The roads are rather narrow too (one car width) at times, which we got to experience when we stopped for me to take a picture of the very cute lambs and a minute later there was another vehicle trying to drive along the road too! Hmm, how deep is that ditch there? It does have a fair amount of regen but not what we are used to in the BMW i3, it seems to give you more regen as the batteries warm up, which makes sense. It can climb the hills that the poor petrol car struggles significantly with, it’s just unfortunate if you get stuck behind a petrol car that is struggling! It appears to have a decent amount of boot space as you can fit the base of a double bed in the back which I guess means I would easily get a weekly supermarket shop in the back too. And, it would seem that you can also fit a double mattress in the back, just comfortably enough that you could sleep in the back of the van – you know if you had to because, say your mum had just moved house and downsized so that with all her boxes in the spare room there wasn’t quite enough space for you to put your double mattress on the floor. Just saying that you could do that if you needed to. Especially if they were stinking the place out while they painted the new abode… I’m just saying that’s all!!! What
Re: [EVDL] Toyota FCV runs on Musk's bull$$it
... it seems to me that converting the methane to H2 has to have the same emissions at the plant that you would get at the tailpipe when burning the methane in an ICE. Efficiency also includes economics of hardware. Yes, We will have H2 (mostly from excess peak solar and wind dumping), but it is far more efficient economically to then burn that H2 back to electricity AT THE PLANT in one big highly efficient generator than it is to take that HUGE supply of H2, and dribble it out all over the country through tiny (leaky) pipes to the far ends of the earth to non-existing H2 filling stations to then try to use in tiny little inefficient fuel cells begin carried around in EV's (FCV's are EV's + a hydrogen tank + a fool cell). Fare better to dribble out the energy of that BULK of H2 into the EXISTING grid to every one of the 60 million American homes to drive their EV's directly. The only thing that changes is the location of the emissions. True? If it isn't true, why not? What am I missing? DISTRIBUTION INEFFICIENES AND ECONOMIES OF SCALE. Hope that helps. Bob, Wb4APR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Toyota FCV runs on Musk's bull$$it
I always ask myself the same question, why is hydrogen still being touted as the next fuel? Who would wish to drive around with a hydrogen tank in the back pressurised to 10,000 psi? We have all seen the photo's of Tesla's batteries burning after an accident but at least the car has time to tell the occupants to stop as soon as they can and get out. A burst hydrogen tank or damaged pipe would be a gas/air bomb. Would any proponent of fool cells like to tell me otherwise? Its often said that if petrol (gas) had only just been invented the man in the street would never be allowed to use it. Picture a fool cell car in an amateur mechanics garage having some work being done on it using a naked flame or using grinding equipment. Then multiply that possibility millions of times if fool cells took off as the oil companies (and Toyota) wish. Madness! Russ On Fri, 24/4/15, Mike Nickerson via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Subject: Re: [EVDL] Toyota FCV runs on Musk's bull$$it To: Mark Abramowitz ma...@enviropolicy.com, Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Date: Friday, 24 April, 2015, 13:35 let me ask the question more directly: Efficiency questions aside, it seems to me that converting the methane to H2 has to have the same emissions at the plant that you would get at the tailpipe when burning the methane in an ICE. The only thing that changes is the location of the emissions. True? If it isn't true, why not? What am I missing? Efficiency questions then make the hydrogen case less attractive since it needs much more processing (cracking hydrogen and compressing to a very high pressure). The only hope that fuel cells have to get back to even is the relative efficiency of the fuel cell relative to the ICE. L Mike On April 24, 2015 12:35:18 AM MDT, Mark Abramowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Sure, that question has merit. I only answered his first question. But the emissions I was particularly referring to were combustion emissions at the tailpipe...not CO2 emissions, which certainly are of relevance. But when the ZEV standards were adopted, the driver was nonattainment criteria pollutants. Efficiency certainly has bearing on GHGs, cost and other things, but is not the be all, end all. Or the hobbyists on this list would be arguing incessantly about ...everything. Clearly, at the tailpipe, nat gas v. H2 is some emission number I don't know off the top of my head versus zero. I guess if you go want to go beyond that you might assume worse case (?) that the cars are in the SCAQMD and the H2 is all produced by steam reformation in-basin. I don't know what that number looks like, but I'll bet it's still a huge advantage to use H2. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 23, 2015, at 7:59 PM, Mike Nickerson m...@nickersonranch.com wrote: I think Ben's question still has merit, though. If you start with methane and take it down two paths, what is the difference in emissions and efficiency? The first path is burning the methane in an ICE. The second path is converting the methane to hydrogen and using it in a fuel cell. It seems like the hydrogen conversion is still likely to create CO2. How does the hydrogen cycle reduce air pollution from using methane? Mike On April 23, 2015 7:28:17 PM MDT, Mark Abramowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Apr 23, 2015, at 3:57 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Um...why not just use that methane as is? I mean, we already do -- every vehicle with a CNG or LNG sticker on it is burning methane. To reduce air pollution. That's why CARB adopted the ZEV mandate. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Toyota FCV runs on Musk's bull$$it
let me ask the question more directly: Efficiency questions aside, it seems to me that converting the methane to H2 has to have the same emissions at the plant that you would get at the tailpipe when burning the methane in an ICE. The only thing that changes is the location of the emissions. True? If it isn't true, why not? What am I missing? Efficiency questions then make the hydrogen case less attractive since it needs much more processing (cracking hydrogen and compressing to a very high pressure). The only hope that fuel cells have to get back to even is the relative efficiency of the fuel cell relative to the ICE. L Mike On April 24, 2015 12:35:18 AM MDT, Mark Abramowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Sure, that question has merit. I only answered his first question. But the emissions I was particularly referring to were combustion emissions at the tailpipe...not CO2 emissions, which certainly are of relevance. But when the ZEV standards were adopted, the driver was nonattainment criteria pollutants. Efficiency certainly has bearing on GHGs, cost and other things, but is not the be all, end all. Or the hobbyists on this list would be arguing incessantly about ...everything. Clearly, at the tailpipe, nat gas v. H2 is some emission number I don't know off the top of my head versus zero. I guess if you go want to go beyond that you might assume worse case (?) that the cars are in the SCAQMD and the H2 is all produced by steam reformation in-basin. I don't know what that number looks like, but I'll bet it's still a huge advantage to use H2. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 23, 2015, at 7:59 PM, Mike Nickerson m...@nickersonranch.com wrote: I think Ben's question still has merit, though. If you start with methane and take it down two paths, what is the difference in emissions and efficiency? The first path is burning the methane in an ICE. The second path is converting the methane to hydrogen and using it in a fuel cell. It seems like the hydrogen conversion is still likely to create CO2. How does the hydrogen cycle reduce air pollution from using methane? Mike On April 23, 2015 7:28:17 PM MDT, Mark Abramowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Apr 23, 2015, at 3:57 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Um...why not just use that methane as is? I mean, we already do -- every vehicle with a CNG or LNG sticker on it is burning methane. To reduce air pollution. That's why CARB adopted the ZEV mandate. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Toyota FCV runs on Musk's bull$$it
Politics is SO frustrating. Big money steering things where they ought not to go. Fool Cells. Corn ethanol. We have a similar problem in Texas right now trying to get legislation passed to allow in-state sales of Teslas. The Tesla lobbying efforts seem very poorly organized while the car dealer lobby is well organized. In a recent hearing, the TADA (Texas Auto Dealers Association), brought in Easter Seals to testify. Auto dealers are prime donors. Just like Fool Cells, the TADA arguments are full of logical holes. But, if enough money is thrown at it, and if lies are told often enough and loud enough, evil prevails. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT: Ford C-MAX Energi pih performance questions
The best people to talk to are the owners/drivers of a vehicle in 'their'
forum(s). A simple search:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Ford+C-MAX+Energi+forum
Ford C-MAX Energi forum
gave a few forums to explore. Select the one(s) that have the most activity
to pose your questions.
Also, Ed at the Open EVSE EVent the EBEAA Chapter put on
http://brucedp13.20m.com/open-evse-ebeaa-2013/
I was talking to a member that owned that pih. You could check with with
your EBEAA members to know who that was.
For EVLN posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/
{brucedp.150m.com}
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View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/OT-how-is-performance-of-Ford-plugin-Cmax-vehicles-tp4675111p4675113.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
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[EVDL] OT: how is performance of Ford plugin Cmax vehicles?
Hello, Has anyone on the list bought a ford plugin cmax car or suv? I'm familier with how the toyotas are performing and holding up. Wonder how ford's models are doing. Ed Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150424/3fe95681/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT: how is performance of Ford plugin Cmax vehicles?
I've got both the Focus BEV and the C-Max Energi plug-in HEV. Very happy with both, would still choose them over other options in the market. About 7000 miles on each, now. Only bad thing about them is the crap Microsoft console, but Ford has ditched that for next year. Happy to answer any specific questions about either. -Bill On Apr 24, 2015, at 16:50, Ed Thorpe via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Hello, Has anyone on the list bought a ford plugin cmax car or suv? I'm familier with how the toyotas are performing and holding up. Wonder how ford's models are doing. Ed Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150424/3fe95681/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Toyota FCV runs on Musk's bull$$it
On Apr 24, 2015, at 6:03 AM, Russ Sciville via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Who would wish to drive around with a hydrogen tank in the back pressurised to 10,000 psi? There's lots of insanity associated with FCVs, but fuel safety isn't part of it. Hydrogen is much safer than gasoline in that regards. Not that gasoline is especially safe, of course, but it's a well-accepted and well-managed risk, and hydrogen is a lesser risk than that. Gasoline vapors are heavier than air and tend to pool. Liquid gasoline wicks very easily into fabric. Gasoline fires stay close to the ground and in your clothes. Hydrogen is the most buoyant gas there is. An hydrogen leak is going straight up and isn't going to collect anywhere in enough volume to sustain combustion. If you started an hydrogen fire, the flames are going to shoot right up rather than spread laterally. And, unlike gasoline fires which are excellent at sustaining themselves, the slightest interruption of an hydrogen flame is going to extinguish it. Indeed, even creating a sustaining flame in the first place is going to be a bit of a challenge -- think of how careful you have to be to light a propane torch; hydrogen will be even more challenging. Pressurized tanks can be scary, yes, but, in practice, it takes either malicious intent or something spectacularly catastrophic to set off one built to automotive specs. Where hydrogen falls flat is first in terms of pollution. Hydrogen is commercially sourced from mined hydrocarbons and thus is as much of a CO2 pollutant as the coal, oil, or gas it's produced from. Because it's the lightest and most highly possibly refined form of those hydrocarbons, it next loses out on efficiency (for the same reason gasoline loses to diesel) -- especially compared with electric vehicles. It loses out in a really big way in terms of the distribution network which doesn't exist for hydrogen but does for everything else -- and which would be much more challenging and expensive and less efficient to build than anything else we've already built. And it loses out to gasoline and diesel in terms of practicality because...well, while hydrogen has far and away the greatest energy density per unit of _mass,_ it's also got the _least_ energy density per unit of _volume._ A fifteen gallon tank of hydrogen gas, under any form of compression you'd want to be anywhere n ear, contains _far_ fewer hydrogen atoms than a fifteen gallon tank of gasoline. Hydrogen is a great fuel...for rocket ships in space. Here on Earth? Forget it. Cheers, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150424/390663a7/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Tell Toyota what you think of their Fool cell vehicle
My comment to Toyota: I have been an electric vehicle and alternative energy enthusiast professional for two decades. It was 1997 when a Kummerow electric vehicle powered by a Zinc air battery went 1000 miles on a charge. However it took three days and 4 drivers. It was a golf cart like vehicle limited to 25 mph. They simply circled the former Alameda Naval Air Station. That was 18 years ago. A lot has changed since then. I've owned several Hondas that got 50 or more miles per gallon,(manufactured from 1980 to 1995) A CNG Dodge Van numerous electric vehicles http://www.evalbum.com/611 . Toyota is by far the most competent manufacturer on the planet. Everyone comes to you to learn how to make a better assembly line. However it is obvious that you didn't do the math on Fuel Cells. Using the EPA mileage rating all the BEV models have well over 100MPGE(around 120) while fuel cells struggle hit 60 mpge. It will cost twice as much to run a fuel cell vehicle in fuel. The Mirai is twice a s expensive as most BEV vehicles. While this may change with mass production the math will never work for the fuel efficiency. It will always be twice as expensive in fuel to run a fuel cell vehicle. Much progress has been made in solar vehicles. The addition of the cruiser class at the World Solar Challenge which is for practical 2 to 4 passenger solar vehicles proves that you can have a vehicle that is not a rolling ping pong table yet will have a 500 mile range on 16 kw of batteries and 1.5kw of solar panels. Stella, the winner of the first cruiser class World solar challenge, will never need conventional fueling in normal use. That means all you have to do is park it in the sun and you are fueled. However if you drive steady long distances or at night frequently it will fuel like any other BEV. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2767806/Meet-Stella-solar-powered-car-drives-500-miles-SINGLE-charge-warns-traffic-lights-change.html Toyota I challenge yo u to produce a vehicle that requires little or no additional fuel from outside sources. This is the vehicle that everyone will want. Not fuel cells. An autonomous solar vehicle. The World Solar Challenge has proven this. Just make it light and efficient and the design will work. If Dutch students can do it Toyota can do it. Lawrence Rhodes ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Tell Toyota what you think of their Fool cell vehicle
Sent from my iPhone On Apr 24, 2015, at 9:01 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: It will always be twice as expensive in fuel to run a fuel cell vehicle. This statement puzzled me. What about future pricing of fuel for a BEV would cause the price to rise so much? Or do you expect the cost of hydrogen to drop that much? If so, could you share why you think so? I would be astounded if that were to be the case. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Toyota FCV runs on Musk's bull$$it
See below for interspersed responses. On Apr 24, 2015, at 5:35 AM, Mike Nickerson m...@nickersonranch.com wrote: let me ask the question more directly: Efficiency questions aside, it seems to me that converting the methane to H2 has to have the same emissions at the plant that you would get at the tailpipe when burning the methane in an ICE. The only thing that changes is the location of the emissions. True? If it isn't true, why not? What am I missing? No, this wouldn't necessarily be true. Different emission control systems and different process. You need to compare NOx emissions from a reforming plant converting methane to combusting the same amount of methane in a car. I don't know much about reforming plants or their emissions. Of course, the numbers probably also change with an onsite reformer. Efficiency questions then make the hydrogen case less attractive since it needs much more processing (cracking hydrogen and compressing to a very high pressure). The only hope that fuel cells have to get back to even is the relative efficiency of the fuel cell relative to the ICE. L The latter certainly makes a difference. Not sure what you mean by back to even, but a fuel cell is twice or more efficient than a gasoline engine. This number is changing and varies by manufacturer. As to your earlier point, that seems to make sense. However, as an aside (an aside since you're comparing methane with that same methane being converted to hydrogen) you can't assume that hydrogen will all be created from methane. It just won't, and the percentages are dropping and will continue to do so. Mike On April 24, 2015 12:35:18 AM MDT, Mark Abramowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Sure, that question has merit. I only answered his first question. But the emissions I was particularly referring to were combustion emissions at the tailpipe...not CO2 emissions, which certainly are of relevance. But when the ZEV standards were adopted, the driver was nonattainment criteria pollutants. Efficiency certainly has bearing on GHGs, cost and other things, but is not the be all, end all. Or the hobbyists on this list would be arguing incessantly about ...everything. Clearly, at the tailpipe, nat gas v. H2 is some emission number I don't know off the top of my head versus zero. I guess if you go want to go beyond that you might assume worse case (?) that the cars are in the SCAQMD and the H2 is all produced by steam reformation in-basin. I don't know what that number looks like, but I'll bet it's still a huge advantage to use H2. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 23, 2015, at 7:59 PM, Mike Nickerson m...@nickersonranch.com wrote: I think Ben's question still has merit, though. If you start with methane and take it down two paths, what is the difference in emissions and efficiency? The first path is burning the methane in an ICE. The second path is converting the methane to hydrogen and using it in a fuel cell. It seems like the hydrogen conversion is still likely to create CO2. How does the hydrogen cycle reduce air pollution from using methane? Mike On April 23, 2015 7:28:17 PM MDT, Mark Abramowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Apr 23, 2015, at 3:57 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Um...why not just use that methane as is? I mean, we already do -- every vehicle with a CNG or LNG sticker on it is burning methane. To reduce air pollution. That's why CARB adopted the ZEV mandate. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Toyota FCV (fuel cell vehicle)
my 2 cents: Seems to me that using methane to make H2 to run in a car isn't very compelling. Why bother since it is so easy to just use a CNG car? Even if it was a few percentage pointsmore efficient..and that's far from certain, It doesn't seem worth it. If you really cared about efficiency that much, you'd be modifiying the aerodynamics, not making some more complicated way of using the CNG. But I don't hate fuel cells. Why hate an idea? There are actually good uses for fuel cells. They are faster to recharge than lithium batteries. They make clean water too.Why not just accept that? I don't hate the idea anymore than I hate the idea of burning coal to make electricity to run the EV. That's not particularly compelling either. .IMHO what is compelling is solar panels generating electricity to run the EV. Think if Michael Faraday gave up studying his little toy magnets and wires? We wouldn't be having EV's...or even electric lights for that matter..but sometimes on the way to the future, you need to accept that A by itself isn't the answer. You also need B, but according to the law of procrastination, before you can do anything, you need to do something else, so why not give up nowanyway, the point is that you shouldn't degenerate an idea that hasn't found widespread use yet. So stop hating fuel cells. Maybe they have an appropriate use? Perhap in distant future, in a galaxy far away maybe they might use a reversible fuel cell (they exist) that can make hydrogen (and oxygen) from solar panels and store it for later use, then use it at will (or at night) to generate heat and electricty and Imagine everyone's fuel cell car as a hydrogen-oxygen generator while it's parked, which could potentially send hydrogen and perhaps oxygen to a hydrogen grid (i.e. pipeline like natural gas). that could be used for machines that don't lend themselves to batteries. Then these same fuel cells could generate electricity at night off the same stored hydrogen. Not saying it's going to happen in our lifetimes, or even that ithe future won't bring something better, but there was a time not so long ago when people laughed at ridiculously high priced solar panelsor EV's. You never know what the future's going to bring. I personally wouldn't completely condemn fuel cells as ...bull$shit and stop or halt their development as some sort of dead end That seems like the same sort of arrogant talk, not long ago, that people were using toward EV's. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150425/0e313905/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] AC motors for mowers
Where do I find the AC motors that are used to run the mower blades that are on the decks of the riding mowers like Recharge n Zeon hustler etc. I looking for myabe 750, 1000 watt motors. Also whats the differance between Dc brushless and Ac motor? AC is 3 phase and Dc brushless has electronics on the motor that changes it to AC ? ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Toyota FCV runs on Musk's bull$$it
I looked at an article by DOE http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/permitting/pdfs/45408.pdf and they concur with you about burning vertically, there are other factors to consider. - is flammable in a much wider range of air mixture - flame spreads 10x faster - unburned gas diffuses 4-6x These factors would dramatically increase the danger in enclosed spaces such as garages and tunnels and inside a vehicle. Unlike a propane torch, where the gas coming out the nozzle is in high concentration and won't ignite, hydrogen will - easily. In an enclosed space, a leak of gas can spread very quickly and find an ignition source quicker. Because the flame spreads fast and the diffusion would provide plenty of O2, the burning would be almost instantaneous, creating an explosion beyond imagination. Also, the flame is invisible so, if there's a burning leak, it's very hard to detect. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Russ Sciville rustyb...@yahoo.co.uk; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 24-Apr-15 8:16:25 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Toyota FCV runs on Musk's bull$$it On Apr 24, 2015, at 6:03 AM, Russ Sciville via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Who would wish to drive around with a hydrogen tank in the back pressurised to 10,000 psi? There's lots of insanity associated with FCVs, but fuel safety isn't part of it. Hydrogen is much safer than gasoline in that regards. Not that gasoline is especially safe, of course, but it's a well-accepted and well-managed risk, and hydrogen is a lesser risk than that. Gasoline vapors are heavier than air and tend to pool. Liquid gasoline wicks very easily into fabric. Gasoline fires stay close to the ground and in your clothes. Hydrogen is the most buoyant gas there is. An hydrogen leak is going straight up and isn't going to collect anywhere in enough volume to sustain combustion. If you started an hydrogen fire, the flames are going to shoot right up rather than spread laterally. And, unlike gasoline fires which are excellent at sustaining themselves, the slightest interruption of an hydrogen flame is going to extinguish it. Indeed, even creating a sustaining flame in the first place is going to be a bit of a challenge -- think of how careful you have to be to light a propane torch; hydrogen will be even more challenging. Pressurized tanks can be scary, yes, but, in practice, it takes either malicious intent or something spectacularly catastrophic to set off one built to automotive specs. Where hydrogen falls flat is first in terms of pollution. Hydrogen is commercially sourced from mined hydrocarbons and thus is as much of a CO2 pollutant as the coal, oil, or gas it's produced from. Because it's the lightest and most highly possibly refined form of those hydrocarbons, it next loses out on efficiency (for the same reason gasoline loses to diesel) -- especially compared with electric vehicles. It loses out in a really big way in terms of the distribution network which doesn't exist for hydrogen but does for everything else -- and which would be much more challenging and expensive and less efficient to build than anything else we've already built. And it loses out to gasoline and diesel in terms of practicality because...well, while hydrogen has far and away the greatest energy density per unit of _mass,_ it's also got the _least_ energy density per unit of _volume._ A fifteen gallon tank of hydrogen gas, under any form of compression you'd want to be anywhere n ear, contains _far_ fewer hydrogen atoms than a fifteen gallon tank of gasoline. Hydrogen is a great fuel...for rocket ships in space. Here on Earth? Forget it. Cheers, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150424/390663a7/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] AC motors for mowers
ken via EV wrote: Where do I find the AC motors that are used to run the mower blades that are on the decks of the riding mowers like Recharge n Zeon hustler etc. I looking for myabe 750, 1000 watt motors. Are you sure they're using an AC motor? Every electric mower I've seen used plain old brushed DC motors. Either it's running directly on the battery (like my ElecTrak, or Black Decker push mower), or it's running off the AC line with a bridge rectifier (my Rally mower). Also whats the differance between Dc brushless and Ac motor? Fundamentally, they're both AC motors. *All* motors are really AC motors! - A brushed DC motor uses brushes and a commutator to convert DC into AC for the actual motor. Brushed motors can either use magnets or wound field coils. - A brushless DC motor is just an AC motor with an electronic commutator (inverter) to convert DC into AC for the motor. Most (but not all) brushless DC motor have permanent magnets. - An AC motor obviously just leaves off whatever device the others had to convert DC into AC, since AC is already available. Most (but not all) AC motors don't use magnets. AC is 3 phase and Dc brushless has electronics on the motor that changes it to AC? Not quite. AC motors can have any number of phases; single-phase, 2-phase, and 3-phase are the most common. The controller (for any type of motor) can either be attached to the motor, or in a separate box. -- If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself. -- Albert Einstein -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
