Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS
Unrelated to EVs, EU and China are demographically and geographically doomed. Especially China. On Mon, Dec 19, 2022, 5:17 PM EV List Lackey via EV wrote: > On 19 Dec 2022 at 20:44, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: > > > If Elon hadn't started the EV mass production revolution, some one else > > surely would have. But it might have been several years later and might > > have been to weak the first time around to not be squashed by the ICE > > industry. > > "Someone else" was already advancing the production EV movement by the > time > the model S arrived. The Mitsubishi Imiev and Nissan Leaf were ahead of > it, > and IIRC the Renault Zoe (not offered in the US) launched at around the > same > time. > > Tesla certainly had some innovations that those EVs didn't have. Some were > substantial, but many were just luxury gadgets. > > Tesla's primary "innovation" was making an EV that appealed to rich folks, > especially celebrity greens awash in excess cash. Those gadgets and > gimmicks were part of the appeal. > > That was easy for Musk to push, because he was already then such an > obscenely rich person. > > To this day, Teslas are based not on what research shows the average > driver > needs, but on what appeals to Elon Musk. If you don't like what he likes, > tough luck. > > That's why I think that despite strong (but declining) Tesla sales, > Renault, > Stellantis, and VW will eventually clean Tesla's clock in Europe. They > actually build EVs for normal people - and normal, middle-income > Europoeans > are buying them. And despite what all y'all may think, I'm still > convinced > that the future success of EVs is mostly in the EU and China, not here in > the US. > > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey > > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > A good question is never answered. It is not a bolt to be > tightened into place but a seed to be planted and to bear > more seed toward the hope of greening the landscape of ideas. > > -- John Ciardi > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/12b60151/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS
The commercial success of iMIEV versus Tesla is demonstrative that Tesla's was much better route to jump starting the paradigm. Why are you so bothered that someone makes a lot of money? It takes people who can raise and spend well to make the first world we all enjoy so much. I do like the iMIEV, and it would be much more the sort of car I woulf buy, but I never have actually seen one. I am curious if you are also exersized at J B Straubel? Tesla needed his efforts to succeed and J B made some scratch too. On Mon, Dec 19, 2022, 5:17 PM EV List Lackey via EV wrote: > On 19 Dec 2022 at 20:44, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: > > > If Elon hadn't started the EV mass production revolution, some one else > > surely would have. But it might have been several years later and might > > have been to weak the first time around to not be squashed by the ICE > > industry. > > "Someone else" was already advancing the production EV movement by the > time > the model S arrived. The Mitsubishi Imiev and Nissan Leaf were ahead of > it, > and IIRC the Renault Zoe (not offered in the US) launched at around the > same > time. > > Tesla certainly had some innovations that those EVs didn't have. Some were > substantial, but many were just luxury gadgets. > > Tesla's primary "innovation" was making an EV that appealed to rich folks, > especially celebrity greens awash in excess cash. Those gadgets and > gimmicks were part of the appeal. > > That was easy for Musk to push, because he was already then such an > obscenely rich person. > > To this day, Teslas are based not on what research shows the average > driver > needs, but on what appeals to Elon Musk. If you don't like what he likes, > tough luck. > > That's why I think that despite strong (but declining) Tesla sales, > Renault, > Stellantis, and VW will eventually clean Tesla's clock in Europe. They > actually build EVs for normal people - and normal, middle-income > Europoeans > are buying them. And despite what all y'all may think, I'm still > convinced > that the future success of EVs is mostly in the EU and China, not here in > the US. > > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey > > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > A good question is never answered. It is not a bolt to be > tightened into place but a seed to be planted and to bear > more seed toward the hope of greening the landscape of ideas. > > -- John Ciardi > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/ecaf0775/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS
> In a way, he acts like a dictator Oh, interesting. At the risk of throwing this discussion off-topic (hell, it's already bouncing off the guardrails as-is): Whenever I hear the term "dictator" tossed around casually, I encourage people to examine the origins of the term, and the several iterations of dictatorship: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictator See specifically the "Etymology" and "Crowd manipulation" sections of the Wikipedia entries (Cult of personality, anyone?). As for Musk, we can all agree that he is a divisive figure, with nearly everyone coming down on one side or the other in discussions. Makes me wonder what Nikola Tesla would do/say? (Would that I could post a photo of my "WWTD" T-shirt, with image of Nikola posing thoughtfully). ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS
On 12/19/2022 2:16 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote: Tesla's primary "innovation" was making an EV that appealed to rich folks, especially celebrity greens awash in excess cash. Those gadgets and gimmicks were part of the appeal. Actually, I think his main innovation was how to BUILD cars economically. Tesla Factories are WAY better than any legacy car maker, and the car designs are FAR FAR better. Easier to build, less expensive to build, etc.. Tesla is WAY ahead of the game in the software area as well - they are the ones pushing the legacy car makers to actually THINK about software being a major feature of the car. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS
This entire thread is at once spot.on, and amusing. I’m 57, so I remember GM crapping on the EV movement with their proprietary Magnecharge system; lease-only EV-1, and lobbying against clean air mandates. It disgusted me and I vowed never to buy GM. Fast forward 30 years. I have a 20 GM Bolt that needs a game plan on a “minor” battery issue. I have a ‘13 LEAF that I needed to go to a 3rd party to upgrade what was a feeble battery and no thermal mgt of same. 3 family members have Teslas and love them, but can’t stand the politics of the CEO. Sincerely, Bob Bath 541.761.0838 Note: any misspellings of the contents of this message are due to 57 y.o. vision, hyperactive spell check changing what I typed, or fat fingering— not cluelessness. > On Dec 19, 2022, at 2:17 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote: > > On 19 Dec 2022 at 20:44, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: > >> If Elon hadn't started the EV mass production revolution, some one else >> surely would have. But it might have been several years later and might >> have been to weak the first time around to not be squashed by the ICE >> industry. > > "Someone else" was already advancing the production EV movement by the time > the model S arrived. The Mitsubishi Imiev and Nissan Leaf were ahead of it, > and IIRC the Renault Zoe (not offered in the US) launched at around the same > time. > > Tesla certainly had some innovations that those EVs didn't have. Some were > substantial, but many were just luxury gadgets. > > Tesla's primary "innovation" was making an EV that appealed to rich folks, > especially celebrity greens awash in excess cash. Those gadgets and > gimmicks were part of the appeal. > > That was easy for Musk to push, because he was already then such an > obscenely rich person. > > To this day, Teslas are based not on what research shows the average driver > needs, but on what appeals to Elon Musk. If you don't like what he likes, > tough luck. > > That's why I think that despite strong (but declining) Tesla sales, Renault, > Stellantis, and VW will eventually clean Tesla's clock in Europe. They > actually build EVs for normal people - and normal, middle-income Europoeans > are buying them. And despite what all y'all may think, I'm still convinced > that the future success of EVs is mostly in the EU and China, not here in > the US. > > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey > > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > A good question is never answered. It is not a bolt to be > tightened into place but a seed to be planted and to bear > more seed toward the hope of greening the landscape of ideas. > > -- John Ciardi > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS
On 19 Dec 2022 at 20:44, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: > If Elon hadn't started the EV mass production revolution, some one else > surely would have. But it might have been several years later and might > have been to weak the first time around to not be squashed by the ICE > industry. "Someone else" was already advancing the production EV movement by the time the model S arrived. The Mitsubishi Imiev and Nissan Leaf were ahead of it, and IIRC the Renault Zoe (not offered in the US) launched at around the same time. Tesla certainly had some innovations that those EVs didn't have. Some were substantial, but many were just luxury gadgets. Tesla's primary "innovation" was making an EV that appealed to rich folks, especially celebrity greens awash in excess cash. Those gadgets and gimmicks were part of the appeal. That was easy for Musk to push, because he was already then such an obscenely rich person. To this day, Teslas are based not on what research shows the average driver needs, but on what appeals to Elon Musk. If you don't like what he likes, tough luck. That's why I think that despite strong (but declining) Tesla sales, Renault, Stellantis, and VW will eventually clean Tesla's clock in Europe. They actually build EVs for normal people - and normal, middle-income Europoeans are buying them. And despite what all y'all may think, I'm still convinced that the future success of EVs is mostly in the EU and China, not here in the US. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = A good question is never answered. It is not a bolt to be tightened into place but a seed to be planted and to bear more seed toward the hope of greening the landscape of ideas. -- John Ciardi = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Tesla - car company from scratch
My best friend had a Bugeyed Sprite, It had a 900cc engine and a friend of ours could pick up the rear end of it while you swapped tires. It had nothing much that is required for a road worthy car today. It was basically a go cart with a bigger engine, wipers and a few tiny lights. You could not sell a car like that and homologate it in different markets. Musk always made it perfectly clear that he only wanted to pave the way for EVs to be a possibility in the current environment. I don't see how we can fault him for using whatever it took to do so. No one else was going to do it. Talk and play at it maybe, but no one was doing it. You can want an inexpensive little car, but he was correct to choose the S, a luxury model, to be the first concentration. The guy was willing to spend every penny he had numerous times back then to keep EVs and SpaceX going. I suspect he is amazed he became so wealthy, and I wouldn't bet against him losing everything, and not feeling bad about it, trying to colonize Mars. But, to do that he has to become wealthy, repeatedly seems. You are going to hold that against him? It takes a special kind of crazy to do this. Hindsight beat downs are just pathetic, IMO. On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 4:23 PM EV List Lackey via EV wrote: > On 19 Dec 2022 at 11:56, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > > > Yeah, the original Tesla Roadster used the ACP design with very little > > change. > > I read somewhere (haven't taken the time to find it again) that rather > than > license Alan Cocconi's design, Gage and Eberhard reverse-engineered it for > the Tesla roadster. Considering the ethics of this move will be left as > an > exercise for the reader. > > The T-Zero was a remarkable EV for its time. It was based on the Piontech > Sportech kit car, and was a little more than half the weight of the Lotus > Elise based Tesla roadster. > > The T-Zero's curb weight was just 895kg (1970lb), range 480km (300mi), > efficiency 9.9kWh/100km (160Wh/mi). > > It could have been - IMO, SHOULD have been - turned into a production car > with as few changes as possible. But for whatever reasons, that's now how > it all turned out. > > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey > > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > Politics is almost as exciting as war, and quite as dangerous. > In war you can only be killed once, but in politics many times. > >-- Winson Churchill > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > -- Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 901-2805 Cell and Text (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Tablet, Google Phone and Text -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/b075845a/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Tesla - car company from scratch
I never said they invented it, the innovation was the modular packaging/cooling. On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 1:41 PM EV List Lackey via EV wrote: > On 19 Dec 2022 at 12:28, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > > > They took ACPs powertrain, Lotus' chassis, and some pretty innovative > > laptop 18650 battery packaging > > Gage and Eberhard / Tesla didn't invent the idea of using massive numbers > of > laptop cells. I'm not so sure anyone did, as the concept of parallel > lithium > cells could probably be called prior art, though hardly on such a scale. > > However, Alan Cocconi *may* have been the first to apply it to an EV. > Again, > it was the T-zero. He used 6,800 (!) 18650 cells in 2003. > > At the time, I didn't think it could be practical for production, because > of > the massive number of potential failure points. I have to give Tesla > credit > for finding a way to make it work in a (limited) production vehicle. > > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey > > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > A successful tool is one that was used to do something > undreamed of by its author. > -- SC Johnson > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/a2b825c8/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Tesla - car company from scratch
On 19 Dec 2022 at 12:28, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > They took ACPs powertrain, Lotus' chassis, and some pretty innovative > laptop 18650 battery packaging Gage and Eberhard / Tesla didn't invent the idea of using massive numbers of laptop cells. I'm not so sure anyone did, as the concept of parallel lithium cells could probably be called prior art, though hardly on such a scale. However, Alan Cocconi *may* have been the first to apply it to an EV. Again, it was the T-zero. He used 6,800 (!) 18650 cells in 2003. At the time, I didn't think it could be practical for production, because of the massive number of potential failure points. I have to give Tesla credit for finding a way to make it work in a (limited) production vehicle. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = A successful tool is one that was used to do something undreamed of by its author. -- SC Johnson = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Tesla - car company from scratch
There is no way they could have turned the tZero into a production car. It would never be able to meet FMVSS, and the battery pack design was super dangerous. (as such they had a fire) On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 1:23 PM EV List Lackey via EV wrote: > On 19 Dec 2022 at 11:56, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > > > Yeah, the original Tesla Roadster used the ACP design with very little > > change. > > I read somewhere (haven't taken the time to find it again) that rather > than > license Alan Cocconi's design, Gage and Eberhard reverse-engineered it for > the Tesla roadster. Considering the ethics of this move will be left as > an > exercise for the reader. > > The T-Zero was a remarkable EV for its time. It was based on the Piontech > Sportech kit car, and was a little more than half the weight of the Lotus > Elise based Tesla roadster. > > The T-Zero's curb weight was just 895kg (1970lb), range 480km (300mi), > efficiency 9.9kWh/100km (160Wh/mi). > > It could have been - IMO, SHOULD have been - turned into a production car > with as few changes as possible. But for whatever reasons, that's now how > it all turned out. > > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey > > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > Politics is almost as exciting as war, and quite as dangerous. > In war you can only be killed once, but in politics many times. > >-- Winson Churchill > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/4724ec9a/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Tesla - car company from scratch
I agree with you it takes a lot to go from concept to production vehicle. I doubt there is anyone on this forum with personal knowledge of who did what. All I know is what I have read. On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 02:28:39 PM CST, (-Phil-) wrote: I don't agree, I think it was pretty genius to recognize the tech ACP had, and decide to bring it to a successful market offering. APC only really made the eBox conversion. The tZero was only a "concept" they didn't think had legs. They took ACPs powertrain, Lotus' chassis, and some pretty innovative laptop 18650 battery packaging and made a pretty awesome EV with the sole intention of using it to raise money to build a second mass-market EV. They succeeded, and I'm reasonably sure they wouldn't have made it without 2 things: 1. Elon's Money, and 2. The "gift" of the Freemont plant. However, I'm not as convinced that Elon's engineering input was essential. On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 12:21 PM paul dove wrote: and it wasn't the genius of Eberhard, Tarpenning or Elon. On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 01:57:16 PM CST, (-Phil-) wrote: Yeah, the original Tesla Roadster used the ACP design with very little change. On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 11:55 AM paul dove via EV wrote: Little known history. The Tesla drive train was purchased from a company founded by Allen Cocconi called AC Propulsion. Allen was the engineer that designed the EV1 drive train for GM. On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 11:33:29 AM CST, Tom Mandera via EV wrote: Why do we start with an ICE roller and convert it to EV? Why don't we start by machining some wheels on the lathe, some square tubing for frame rails, start hand laying fiberglass for a body.. It's almost always easier (faster/cheaper) to start with even a flawed initial implementation than to build something from total scratch. Especially if part of your aura is about saving the planet. At least, that's why I would've bought an existing car company and leveraged it into something bigger/better rather than starting from zero. On 12/19/2022 9:44 AM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote: > Why did Musk buy Tesla rather than create a car company on his own from > scratch? > > On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 08:26:25 AM PST, Michael Ross via EV > wrote: > > "Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies." > ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/154bb0b6/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/1f80ac4b/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Tesla - car company from scratch
On 19 Dec 2022 at 11:56, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > Yeah, the original Tesla Roadster used the ACP design with very little > change. I read somewhere (haven't taken the time to find it again) that rather than license Alan Cocconi's design, Gage and Eberhard reverse-engineered it for the Tesla roadster. Considering the ethics of this move will be left as an exercise for the reader. The T-Zero was a remarkable EV for its time. It was based on the Piontech Sportech kit car, and was a little more than half the weight of the Lotus Elise based Tesla roadster. The T-Zero's curb weight was just 895kg (1970lb), range 480km (300mi), efficiency 9.9kWh/100km (160Wh/mi). It could have been - IMO, SHOULD have been - turned into a production car with as few changes as possible. But for whatever reasons, that's now how it all turned out. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Politics is almost as exciting as war, and quite as dangerous. In war you can only be killed once, but in politics many times. -- Winson Churchill = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS
No, you are being difficult. It's obvious to me that folks on this forum dislikes Telsa based fabricated information. Did anyone here look up facts about the CEO's of Ford, GM, Nissan, Toyota, etc. before they bought a car? It is sheer nonsense. On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 01:32:59 PM CST, Lawrence Winiarski wrote: Still, if he didn't need themwhy didn't he just start on his own? You are avoiding the question. On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 11:05:51 AM PST, paul dove wrote: How do you know they didn't need him? I was under the impression that they approached him about investing. Elon said Eberhard was wealthy but unwilling to risk his own money. On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 12:23:36 PM CST, Lawrence Winiarski wrote: Still, if the the original Tesla guys did nothing, had no product, were worthless etc.then why did Musk bother with them in the first place? Seems if I was such a "brilliant visionary" with a billion dollars why did he he need them? On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 09:40:56 AM PST, paul dove wrote: I would not characterize it in that way. They were a year old when he invested ((2004). They didn't even have a product yet. They just had an idea; the prototype was unveiled 2 years after Mush became chairman of the board of directors (2006). Eberhard resigned as CEO a year after that (2007). Ze'ev Drori took over as CEO. Drori is credited with turning the prototype into a viable product. The launch of the Roadster was 2008. Eberhard and Tarpenning left the company before the Roadster before they shipped the first Roadster (February 2008) to Musk. Musk took over CEO in October of 2008. On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 10:45:11 AM CST, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote: Why did Musk buy Tesla rather than create a car company on his own from scratch? On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 08:26:25 AM PST, Michael Ross via EV wrote: "Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies." As a manufacturing, and electromrchanical product design engineer for 3 decades I am calling troll bullshit jealousy on part A of this quote. EM is a fine engineer in many disciplines. Mechanical, software, aerospace, rocket engine development, I am very impressed at his manufacturing engineering, and his management (which includes hiring the best). Plenty of mistakes made, but his embrace of breaking prototypes to learn fast has been remarkable. I have been following Tesla and SpaceX since before Model S and during the early rocket testing in Macgregor TX. I have been listening to EM all the while. He is clearly visionary. Any one who can't credit EM with real engineering chops, clearly is not a working engineer. As to parts B & C, that is obvious, and so what? Do you think any other similar edeavors are different? As far as behavior goes, lots of mistakes there. EM is on the spectrum and still does pretty well. I have to take the good and the bad to have a balanced outlook. He would likely not hire me, if for no reason than I like laying in the sun an planting stuff to make my yard prettier, more than I like the corporate engineering environment. I can still repect real accomplishment. On Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 9:35 PM EV List Lackey via EV wrote: > On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34 > > Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies. > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/9512a500/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/1614b1cd/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/881b0a52/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Tesla - car company from scratch
On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 at 19:55, paul dove via EV wrote: > > Allen was the engineer that designed the EV1 drive train for GM. Alan Cocconi designed the twin inverters for the Aerovironment Impact. The EV1 inverter was designed by Hughes Aerospace. Ref; "The Car That Could" -- Paul Compton www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel) ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS
My turn :) Here's the thing. Somebody had to take some floundering ventures and push them on a grand scale. Elon's the right kind of guy for that - big ego, big money, and a high risk taker. Whether he's the smartest engineer is irrelevant. Sure, he needs to be able to understand what others are explaining and make decisions, but he can rely on those others (or chose to ignore them, which he frequently appears to do) as needed. The result is he makes big, brash, fast decisions. In a way, he acts like a dictator. He abhors government process and is infuriated by indecisiveness of others. He wants to act. Now. For a small startup, I find this tolerable, though it would be better if he could keep his mouth shut in public :) To some degree, skirting government regulations, making employees work under duress, and so on, is ok with me while trying to get a first product to market. Of course, that changes when later on. But, my point is, that kind of person probably has a much higher chance of success than someone who plans everything carefully and proceeds cautiously. They'll never get their first product out. If Elon hadn't started the EV mass production revolution, some one else surely would have. But it might have been several years later and might have been to weak the first time around to not be squashed by the ICE industry. So, you can hate Elon for his brashness, his poorly thought out statements, and his lack of consideration of others. I do. And you can love him for getting something done. Peri << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> -- Original Message -- From: "paul dove via EV" To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" ; "Lawrence Winiarski" Cc: "paul dove" Sent: 19-Dec-22 11:05:46 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS How do you know they didn't need him? I was under the impression that they approached him about investing. Elon said Eberhard was wealthy but unwilling to risk his own money. On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 12:23:36 PM CST, Lawrence Winiarski wrote: Still, if the the original Tesla guys did nothing, had no product, were worthless etc.then why did Musk bother with them in the first place? Seems if I was such a "brilliant visionary" with a billion dollars why did he he need them? On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 09:40:56 AM PST, paul dove wrote: I would not characterize it in that way. They were a year old when he invested ((2004). They didn't even have a product yet. They just had an idea; the prototype was unveiled 2 years after Mush became chairman of the board of directors (2006). Eberhard resigned as CEO a year after that (2007). Ze'ev Drori took over as CEO. Drori is credited with turning the prototype into a viable product. The launch of the Roadster was 2008. Eberhard and Tarpenning left the company before the Roadster before they shipped the first Roadster (February 2008) to Musk. Musk took over CEO in October of 2008. On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 10:45:11 AM CST, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote: Why did Musk buy Tesla rather than create a car company on his own from scratch? On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 08:26:25 AM PST, Michael Ross via EV wrote: "Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies." As a manufacturing, and electromrchanical product design engineer for 3 decades I am calling troll bullshit jealousy on part A of this quote. EM is a fine engineer in many disciplines. Mechanical, software, aerospace, rocket engine development, I am very impressed at his manufacturing engineering, and his management (which includes hiring the best). Plenty of mistakes made, but his embrace of breaking prototypes to learn fast has been remarkable. I have been following Tesla and SpaceX since before Model S and during the early rocket testing in Macgregor TX. I have been listening to EM all the while. He is clearly visionary. Any one who can't credit EM with real engineering chops, clearly is not a working engineer. As to parts B & C, that is obvious, and so what? Do you think any other similar edeavors are different? As far as behavior goes, lots of mistakes there. EM is on the spectrum and still does pretty well. I have to take the good and the bad to have a balanced outlook. He would likely not hire me, if for no reason than I like laying in the sun an planting stuff to make my yard prettier, more than I like the corporate engineering environment. I can still repect real accomplishment. On Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 9:35 PM EV List Lackey via EV wrote: On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34 Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/9512a500/attachment.htm> __
Re: [EVDL] Tesla - car company from scratch
I don't agree, I think it was pretty genius to recognize the tech ACP had, and decide to bring it to a successful market offering. APC only really made the eBox conversion. The tZero was only a "concept" they didn't think had legs. They took ACPs powertrain, Lotus' chassis, and some pretty innovative laptop 18650 battery packaging and made a pretty awesome EV with the sole intention of using it to raise money to build a second mass-market EV. They succeeded, and I'm reasonably sure they wouldn't have made it without 2 things: 1. Elon's Money, and 2. The "gift" of the Freemont plant. However, I'm not as convinced that Elon's engineering input was essential. On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 12:21 PM paul dove wrote: > and it wasn't the genius of Eberhard, Tarpenning or Elon. > > On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 01:57:16 PM CST, (-Phil-) < > philp...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Yeah, the original Tesla Roadster used the ACP design with very little > change. > > On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 11:55 AM paul dove via EV > wrote: > > Little known history. The Tesla drive train was purchased from a company > founded by Allen Cocconi called AC Propulsion. Allen was the engineer that > designed the EV1 drive train for GM. > On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 11:33:29 AM CST, Tom Mandera via EV < > ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: > > Why do we start with an ICE roller and convert it to EV? Why don't we > start by machining some wheels on the lathe, some square tubing for > frame rails, start hand laying fiberglass for a body.. > > > It's almost always easier (faster/cheaper) to start with even a flawed > initial implementation than to build something from total scratch. > > > Especially if part of your aura is about saving the planet. > > > At least, that's why I would've bought an existing car company and > leveraged it into something bigger/better rather than starting from zero. > > On 12/19/2022 9:44 AM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote: > > Why did Musk buy Tesla rather than create a car company on his own from > scratch? > > > > On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 08:26:25 AM PST, Michael Ross via > EV wrote: > > > > "Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies." > > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/154bb0b6/attachment.htm > > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/49c5fb87/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS
How do you know they didn't need him? I was under the impression that they approached him about investing. Elon said Eberhard was wealthy but unwilling to risk his own money. On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 12:23:36 PM CST, Lawrence Winiarski wrote: Still, if the the original Tesla guys did nothing, had no product, were worthless etc.then why did Musk bother with them in the first place? Seems if I was such a "brilliant visionary" with a billion dollars why did he he need them? On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 09:40:56 AM PST, paul dove wrote: I would not characterize it in that way. They were a year old when he invested ((2004). They didn't even have a product yet. They just had an idea; the prototype was unveiled 2 years after Mush became chairman of the board of directors (2006). Eberhard resigned as CEO a year after that (2007). Ze'ev Drori took over as CEO. Drori is credited with turning the prototype into a viable product. The launch of the Roadster was 2008. Eberhard and Tarpenning left the company before the Roadster before they shipped the first Roadster (February 2008) to Musk. Musk took over CEO in October of 2008. On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 10:45:11 AM CST, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote: Why did Musk buy Tesla rather than create a car company on his own from scratch? On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 08:26:25 AM PST, Michael Ross via EV wrote: "Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies." As a manufacturing, and electromrchanical product design engineer for 3 decades I am calling troll bullshit jealousy on part A of this quote. EM is a fine engineer in many disciplines. Mechanical, software, aerospace, rocket engine development, I am very impressed at his manufacturing engineering, and his management (which includes hiring the best). Plenty of mistakes made, but his embrace of breaking prototypes to learn fast has been remarkable. I have been following Tesla and SpaceX since before Model S and during the early rocket testing in Macgregor TX. I have been listening to EM all the while. He is clearly visionary. Any one who can't credit EM with real engineering chops, clearly is not a working engineer. As to parts B & C, that is obvious, and so what? Do you think any other similar edeavors are different? As far as behavior goes, lots of mistakes there. EM is on the spectrum and still does pretty well. I have to take the good and the bad to have a balanced outlook. He would likely not hire me, if for no reason than I like laying in the sun an planting stuff to make my yard prettier, more than I like the corporate engineering environment. I can still repect real accomplishment. On Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 9:35 PM EV List Lackey via EV wrote: > On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34 > > Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies. > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/9512a500/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/1614b1cd/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/f6b434fe/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Tesla - car company from scratch
Yeah, the original Tesla Roadster used the ACP design with very little change. On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 11:55 AM paul dove via EV wrote: > Little known history. The Tesla drive train was purchased from a company > founded by Allen Cocconi called AC Propulsion. Allen was the engineer that > designed the EV1 drive train for GM. > On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 11:33:29 AM CST, Tom Mandera via EV < > ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: > > Why do we start with an ICE roller and convert it to EV? Why don't we > start by machining some wheels on the lathe, some square tubing for > frame rails, start hand laying fiberglass for a body.. > > > It's almost always easier (faster/cheaper) to start with even a flawed > initial implementation than to build something from total scratch. > > > Especially if part of your aura is about saving the planet. > > > At least, that's why I would've bought an existing car company and > leveraged it into something bigger/better rather than starting from zero. > > On 12/19/2022 9:44 AM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote: > > Why did Musk buy Tesla rather than create a car company on his own from > scratch? > > > > On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 08:26:25 AM PST, Michael Ross via > EV wrote: > > > > "Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies." > > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/154bb0b6/attachment.htm > > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/05a9b1be/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Tesla - car company from scratch
Little known history. The Tesla drive train was purchased from a company founded by Allen Cocconi called AC Propulsion. Allen was the engineer that designed the EV1 drive train for GM. On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 11:33:29 AM CST, Tom Mandera via EV wrote: Why do we start with an ICE roller and convert it to EV? Why don't we start by machining some wheels on the lathe, some square tubing for frame rails, start hand laying fiberglass for a body.. It's almost always easier (faster/cheaper) to start with even a flawed initial implementation than to build something from total scratch. Especially if part of your aura is about saving the planet. At least, that's why I would've bought an existing car company and leveraged it into something bigger/better rather than starting from zero. On 12/19/2022 9:44 AM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote: > Why did Musk buy Tesla rather than create a car company on his own from > scratch? > > On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 08:26:25 AM PST, Michael Ross via EV > wrote: > > "Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies." > ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/154bb0b6/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS
I would not characterize it in that way. They were a year old when he invested ((2004). They didn't even have a product yet. They just had an idea; the prototype was unveiled 2 years after Mush became chairman of the board of directors (2006). Eberhard resigned as CEO a year after that (2007). Ze'ev Drori took over as CEO. Drori is credited with turning the prototype into a viable product. The launch of the Roadster was 2008. Eberhard and Tarpenning left the company before the Roadster before they shipped the first Roadster (February 2008) to Musk. Musk took over CEO in October of 2008. On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 10:45:11 AM CST, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote: Why did Musk buy Tesla rather than create a car company on his own from scratch? On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 08:26:25 AM PST, Michael Ross via EV wrote: "Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies." As a manufacturing, and electromrchanical product design engineer for 3 decades I am calling troll bullshit jealousy on part A of this quote. EM is a fine engineer in many disciplines. Mechanical, software, aerospace, rocket engine development, I am very impressed at his manufacturing engineering, and his management (which includes hiring the best). Plenty of mistakes made, but his embrace of breaking prototypes to learn fast has been remarkable. I have been following Tesla and SpaceX since before Model S and during the early rocket testing in Macgregor TX. I have been listening to EM all the while. He is clearly visionary. Any one who can't credit EM with real engineering chops, clearly is not a working engineer. As to parts B & C, that is obvious, and so what? Do you think any other similar edeavors are different? As far as behavior goes, lots of mistakes there. EM is on the spectrum and still does pretty well. I have to take the good and the bad to have a balanced outlook. He would likely not hire me, if for no reason than I like laying in the sun an planting stuff to make my yard prettier, more than I like the corporate engineering environment. I can still repect real accomplishment. On Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 9:35 PM EV List Lackey via EV wrote: > On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34 > > Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies. > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/9512a500/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/1614b1cd/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/30bd0f57/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS
Still, if he didn't need themwhy didn't he just start on his own? You are avoiding the question. On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 11:05:51 AM PST, paul dove wrote: How do you know they didn't need him? I was under the impression that they approached him about investing. Elon said Eberhard was wealthy but unwilling to risk his own money. On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 12:23:36 PM CST, Lawrence Winiarski wrote: Still, if the the original Tesla guys did nothing, had no product, were worthless etc.then why did Musk bother with them in the first place? Seems if I was such a "brilliant visionary" with a billion dollars why did he he need them? On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 09:40:56 AM PST, paul dove wrote: I would not characterize it in that way. They were a year old when he invested ((2004). They didn't even have a product yet. They just had an idea; the prototype was unveiled 2 years after Mush became chairman of the board of directors (2006). Eberhard resigned as CEO a year after that (2007). Ze'ev Drori took over as CEO. Drori is credited with turning the prototype into a viable product. The launch of the Roadster was 2008. Eberhard and Tarpenning left the company before the Roadster before they shipped the first Roadster (February 2008) to Musk. Musk took over CEO in October of 2008. On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 10:45:11 AM CST, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote: Why did Musk buy Tesla rather than create a car company on his own from scratch? On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 08:26:25 AM PST, Michael Ross via EV wrote: "Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies." As a manufacturing, and electromrchanical product design engineer for 3 decades I am calling troll bullshit jealousy on part A of this quote. EM is a fine engineer in many disciplines. Mechanical, software, aerospace, rocket engine development, I am very impressed at his manufacturing engineering, and his management (which includes hiring the best). Plenty of mistakes made, but his embrace of breaking prototypes to learn fast has been remarkable. I have been following Tesla and SpaceX since before Model S and during the early rocket testing in Macgregor TX. I have been listening to EM all the while. He is clearly visionary. Any one who can't credit EM with real engineering chops, clearly is not a working engineer. As to parts B & C, that is obvious, and so what? Do you think any other similar edeavors are different? As far as behavior goes, lots of mistakes there. EM is on the spectrum and still does pretty well. I have to take the good and the bad to have a balanced outlook. He would likely not hire me, if for no reason than I like laying in the sun an planting stuff to make my yard prettier, more than I like the corporate engineering environment. I can still repect real accomplishment. On Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 9:35 PM EV List Lackey via EV wrote: > On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34 > > Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies. > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/9512a500/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/1614b1cd/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/20751e69/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] Rant all you want, Tesla is best. Ignore Musk.
To all that will buy a Chevy Bolt or other EV, including conversations, and not Tesla because of Musk...talk to you in 5 years. Just bought a base Tesla. $725 for 6 years. $4,500 down. I am betting I will do better. I have driven the ungraded Bolt. Not bad for the money but Chevy just raised prices for January 1st. 300,000 are waiting for a Model III. I took the sure $3,750 over a maybe $7,500 incentive and possibly Tesla raising prices to the $55,000 limit, not to mention interest rates are going up. Lawrence Rhodes -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/cf433a7c/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS
Still, if the the original Tesla guys did nothing, had no product, were worthless etc.then why did Musk bother with them in the first place? Seems if I was such a "brilliant visionary" with a billion dollars why did he he need them? On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 09:40:56 AM PST, paul dove wrote: I would not characterize it in that way. They were a year old when he invested ((2004). They didn't even have a product yet. They just had an idea; the prototype was unveiled 2 years after Mush became chairman of the board of directors (2006). Eberhard resigned as CEO a year after that (2007). Ze'ev Drori took over as CEO. Drori is credited with turning the prototype into a viable product. The launch of the Roadster was 2008. Eberhard and Tarpenning left the company before the Roadster before they shipped the first Roadster (February 2008) to Musk. Musk took over CEO in October of 2008. On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 10:45:11 AM CST, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote: Why did Musk buy Tesla rather than create a car company on his own from scratch? On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 08:26:25 AM PST, Michael Ross via EV wrote: "Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies." As a manufacturing, and electromrchanical product design engineer for 3 decades I am calling troll bullshit jealousy on part A of this quote. EM is a fine engineer in many disciplines. Mechanical, software, aerospace, rocket engine development, I am very impressed at his manufacturing engineering, and his management (which includes hiring the best). Plenty of mistakes made, but his embrace of breaking prototypes to learn fast has been remarkable. I have been following Tesla and SpaceX since before Model S and during the early rocket testing in Macgregor TX. I have been listening to EM all the while. He is clearly visionary. Any one who can't credit EM with real engineering chops, clearly is not a working engineer. As to parts B & C, that is obvious, and so what? Do you think any other similar edeavors are different? As far as behavior goes, lots of mistakes there. EM is on the spectrum and still does pretty well. I have to take the good and the bad to have a balanced outlook. He would likely not hire me, if for no reason than I like laying in the sun an planting stuff to make my yard prettier, more than I like the corporate engineering environment. I can still repect real accomplishment. On Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 9:35 PM EV List Lackey via EV wrote: > On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34 > > Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies. > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/9512a500/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/1614b1cd/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/82b2d7e3/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Tesla - car company from scratch
Why do we start with an ICE roller and convert it to EV? Why don't we start by machining some wheels on the lathe, some square tubing for frame rails, start hand laying fiberglass for a body.. It's almost always easier (faster/cheaper) to start with even a flawed initial implementation than to build something from total scratch. Especially if part of your aura is about saving the planet. At least, that's why I would've bought an existing car company and leveraged it into something bigger/better rather than starting from zero. On 12/19/2022 9:44 AM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote: Why did Musk buy Tesla rather than create a car company on his own from scratch? On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 08:26:25 AM PST, Michael Ross via EV wrote: "Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies." ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS
Why did Musk buy Tesla rather than create a car company on his own from scratch? On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 08:26:25 AM PST, Michael Ross via EV wrote: "Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies." As a manufacturing, and electromrchanical product design engineer for 3 decades I am calling troll bullshit jealousy on part A of this quote. EM is a fine engineer in many disciplines. Mechanical, software, aerospace, rocket engine development, I am very impressed at his manufacturing engineering, and his management (which includes hiring the best). Plenty of mistakes made, but his embrace of breaking prototypes to learn fast has been remarkable. I have been following Tesla and SpaceX since before Model S and during the early rocket testing in Macgregor TX. I have been listening to EM all the while. He is clearly visionary. Any one who can't credit EM with real engineering chops, clearly is not a working engineer. As to parts B & C, that is obvious, and so what? Do you think any other similar edeavors are different? As far as behavior goes, lots of mistakes there. EM is on the spectrum and still does pretty well. I have to take the good and the bad to have a balanced outlook. He would likely not hire me, if for no reason than I like laying in the sun an planting stuff to make my yard prettier, more than I like the corporate engineering environment. I can still repect real accomplishment. On Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 9:35 PM EV List Lackey via EV wrote: > On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34 > > Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies. > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/9512a500/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/1614b1cd/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS
"Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies." As a manufacturing, and electromrchanical product design engineer for 3 decades I am calling troll bullshit jealousy on part A of this quote. EM is a fine engineer in many disciplines. Mechanical, software, aerospace, rocket engine development, I am very impressed at his manufacturing engineering, and his management (which includes hiring the best). Plenty of mistakes made, but his embrace of breaking prototypes to learn fast has been remarkable. I have been following Tesla and SpaceX since before Model S and during the early rocket testing in Macgregor TX. I have been listening to EM all the while. He is clearly visionary. Any one who can't credit EM with real engineering chops, clearly is not a working engineer. As to parts B & C, that is obvious, and so what? Do you think any other similar edeavors are different? As far as behavior goes, lots of mistakes there. EM is on the spectrum and still does pretty well. I have to take the good and the bad to have a balanced outlook. He would likely not hire me, if for no reason than I like laying in the sun an planting stuff to make my yard prettier, more than I like the corporate engineering environment. I can still repect real accomplishment. On Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 9:35 PM EV List Lackey via EV wrote: > On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34 > > Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies. > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/9512a500/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS
You all need to change the name of this list from electric vehicle discussion list to Tesla bashing discussion list. Musk attended Queen’s University in Kingston, Ontario, and in 1992 he transferred to the University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, where he received bachelor’s degrees in physicsand economics in 1997. www.britannica.com/biography/Elon-Musk Average Tesla Salary: By Location, Job Title, and Department www.zippia.com/tesla-careers-11363/salary/ Tesla’s compensation and benefits packages play a significant role in attracting and retaining employees. According to Statista, Tesla employs over 99,000 workers who are highly skilled in their respective fields. Tesla’s workforce has increased over 100-fold since 2010, and it seems to be continuing the trend of rapid growth. To attract top talent, Tesla’s employee benefits and perks need to be attractive, so Tesla provides lucrative salaries and employee benefit packages to attract and retain top tech industry experts. Below is an overview of Tesla’s salaries and employee benefits packages. careerkarma.com/blog/tesla-benefits/ Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Sunday, December 18, 2022, 8:35 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote: On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34, Lee Hart via EV wrote: > I think this is an example of the logical fallacies that permeate our > society today. Maybe I'm missing something, but I see nothing fallacious in such a decision. Rational purchasing decisions take many factors into account. > Musk may be a jerk; but he still deserves credit for accomplished great > things. I'll give him credit for lining up Tesla's financing, which I don't think Gage and Eberhard could have done. He also did a fair bit to dispel EVs' undeserved "golf-car-and-forklift" image. But that was well over a decade ago. IMO, in recent years, Tesla has succeeded more in spite of Musk than because of him. Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies. You're mission driven for EVs, and I suspect Tesla's engineers are too, but that takes you only so far when the boss treats you like trash. Tesla also can't have a living and thriving business without customers. A year ago, only those of us who followed EVs pretty closely knew about Musk's employee abuse, his company's poor safety record, and his violations of California and EU environmental and labor laws. Now his Twitter dumpster fire is all over the news, and everybody knows about at least his callous attitude toward his employees. No surprise, recent surveys show Tesla's "brand image" sliding into the negative. www.teslarati.com/tesla-approval-rating-negative-territory-survey/ With that, and rapidly rising prices, Tesla's vehicle sales are down. If Musk could stay off Twitter, they might eventually recover. But unlike more emotionally mature CEOs, I don't think he has the impulse control to do that. Tesla's stock price is down too, off over 60 percent from its peak, with much of that decline arriving after he took over Twitter. https://bipartisanreport.com/2022/12/14/tesla-stock-value-suffers-steep- decline-amidst-musk-antics/ or https://v.gd/aQjxy1 Musk could depress the stock further if he sells more of it to prop up his personal megaphone, Twitter. A Tesla may be a fine EV, but it's not 2013. Today there are many more good EV choices, especially in Europe. With all due respect, I don't think that it's at all irrational to buy a non- Tesla EV to avoid putting any more money into Musk's already-stuffed pockets. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I think [Rio de Janeiro mayor Marcelo] Crivella will be remembered as a mayor to be forgotten. -- Alvaro Costa e Silva = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221219/d54375a9/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
