Re: [EVDL] Toyota and the hydrogen wish.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

 As a person who frequently uses the term "Foolcell"  Amen.  Lawrence 
Rhodes...Lets Bust the Myth that Fuel Cells are a clean solution.

On Monday, December 17, 2018, 5:16:03 AM PST, robert winfield 
 wrote:  
 
  I'm unsure whom directed this response, but since it quotes my post i will 
respondMark,I have been reading this list for a lot of years and developed the 
distinct impression that you have a hydrogen vehicle bias over EV'sif that is 
wrong, i apologize for misreading your many comments over the many years.
I posted virtually the same response at least once, vis a vis an _already_ 
extant electrical grid with billions if not trillions of outlest versus the 
hurclean task of building a duplicate fueling structure for hydrogen for what 
seems to me the sole purpose of keeping the fossil fuel industry from dying 
rapidly instead of it's present slower inevitable death
I seem to recall back then you may have had a differnant email or signature 
file, something to do with hydrogen.if i recall that incorrectly, again 
apologies, but only minimal
If you do simple physics, its somewhere around 4 electrons to get 1 H but I 
don't have the equations handy (IE a 75% loss just starting, and it goes to 90% 
or greater by the end of the process, worse than gasoline as oil is somewhat 
"pre processed" but messy, but does continue the fossil fuel agenda
I seriously regret getting a plug in hybrid gas-electric myself, but a car 
wreck forced my hand, along with some brain damage from the wreck and lack of 
funds and income
If you still support the Hydrogen economy, what's _your_ excuse?
It's tough to have an opposing opinion from the people that sign your paychecks 
at times
however, this is a forum supposedly for electric vehicle discussion, EV 
hobbiests, and such and not the Hydrogen fool cell folks, so can folks go back 
to that.



On Sunday, December 16, 2018, 12:47:27 PM EST, Mark Abramowitz 
 wrote:  
 
 I think that you are ascribing to me statements I never made in my post.
I’m happy to correct you about your comments about infrastructure and “winners” 
and “losers”, but perhaps when I have time and in another thread.
I was just responding to Lawrence’s claim that fast refueling and a similar 
customer experience were “myths”.

- Mark
Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
On Dec 16, 2018, at 5:54 AM, robert winfield  wrote:


 Mark_your_ statement puzzles me about HydrogenAt least the continental US has 
an electrical grid, part of which my uncles helped build in the 1920'sThere are 
literally Billions of electrical outlets if not trillions, all supplying 
electricity.Why on earth should be build another grid to supply Hydrogen when 
we ALREADY have a grid?
I fail to understand why you want to, at enormous, useless expense, duplicate 
an existing infrastructure.
Money and thought have already spoken, decisions have been made over the last 
100+ yearshydrogen is the loser and electricity the winner.
On Saturday, December 15, 2018, 3:45:06 PM EST, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 “I think the idea is that it
takes too long to recharge an EV and that hydrogen offers the convenience
of a quick refuel; similar to an ICE refill.
This is the myth big business wants to purvey.”

This statement puzzles me.

Hydrogen DOES offer a quick refill, similar to a gasoline refill. In fact, the 
industry spent a lot to make the experience to consumers as close to a gas 
refill as possible.

Why do you think that’s a myth?

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Dec 14, 2018, at 10:29 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> I think the idea is that it
> takes too long to recharge an EV and that hydrogen offers the convenience
> of a quick refuel; similar to an ICE refill.
> This is the myth big business wants to purvey.

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Re: [EVDL] Toyota and the hydrogen wish.

[robert winfield via EV]

 I'm unsure whom directed this response, but since it quotes my post i will 
respondMark,I have been reading this list for a lot of years and developed the 
distinct impression that you have a hydrogen vehicle bias over EV'sif that is 
wrong, i apologize for misreading your many comments over the many years.
I posted virtually the same response at least once, vis a vis an _already_ 
extant electrical grid with billions if not trillions of outlest versus the 
hurclean task of building a duplicate fueling structure for hydrogen for what 
seems to me the sole purpose of keeping the fossil fuel industry from dying 
rapidly instead of it's present slower inevitable death
I seem to recall back then you may have had a differnant email or signature 
file, something to do with hydrogen.if i recall that incorrectly, again 
apologies, but only minimal
If you do simple physics, its somewhere around 4 electrons to get 1 H but I 
don't have the equations handy (IE a 75% loss just starting, and it goes to 90% 
or greater by the end of the process, worse than gasoline as oil is somewhat 
"pre processed" but messy, but does continue the fossil fuel agenda
I seriously regret getting a plug in hybrid gas-electric myself, but a car 
wreck forced my hand, along with some brain damage from the wreck and lack of 
funds and income
If you still support the Hydrogen economy, what's _your_ excuse?
It's tough to have an opposing opinion from the people that sign your paychecks 
at times
however, this is a forum supposedly for electric vehicle discussion, EV 
hobbiests, and such and not the Hydrogen fool cell folks, so can folks go back 
to that.



On Sunday, December 16, 2018, 12:47:27 PM EST, Mark Abramowitz 
 wrote:  
 
 I think that you are ascribing to me statements I never made in my post.
I’m happy to correct you about your comments about infrastructure and “winners” 
and “losers”, but perhaps when I have time and in another thread.
I was just responding to Lawrence’s claim that fast refueling and a similar 
customer experience were “myths”.

- Mark
Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
On Dec 16, 2018, at 5:54 AM, robert winfield  wrote:


 Mark_your_ statement puzzles me about HydrogenAt least the continental US has 
an electrical grid, part of which my uncles helped build in the 1920'sThere are 
literally Billions of electrical outlets if not trillions, all supplying 
electricity.Why on earth should be build another grid to supply Hydrogen when 
we ALREADY have a grid?
I fail to understand why you want to, at enormous, useless expense, duplicate 
an existing infrastructure.
Money and thought have already spoken, decisions have been made over the last 
100+ yearshydrogen is the loser and electricity the winner.
On Saturday, December 15, 2018, 3:45:06 PM EST, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 “I think the idea is that it
takes too long to recharge an EV and that hydrogen offers the convenience
of a quick refuel; similar to an ICE refill.
This is the myth big business wants to purvey.”

This statement puzzles me.

Hydrogen DOES offer a quick refill, similar to a gasoline refill. In fact, the 
industry spent a lot to make the experience to consumers as close to a gas 
refill as possible.

Why do you think that’s a myth?

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Dec 14, 2018, at 10:29 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> I think the idea is that it
> takes too long to recharge an EV and that hydrogen offers the convenience
> of a quick refuel; similar to an ICE refill.
> This is the myth big business wants to purvey.

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Re: [EVDL] Toyota and the hydrogen wish.

[robert winfield via EV]

 Mark_your_ statement puzzles me about HydrogenAt least the continental US has 
an electrical grid, part of which my uncles helped build in the 1920'sThere are 
literally Billions of electrical outlets if not trillions, all supplying 
electricity.Why on earth should be build another grid to supply Hydrogen when 
we ALREADY have a grid?
I fail to understand why you want to, at enormous, useless expense, duplicate 
an existing infrastructure.
Money and thought have already spoken, decisions have been made over the last 
100+ yearshydrogen is the loser and electricity the winner.
On Saturday, December 15, 2018, 3:45:06 PM EST, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 “I think the idea is that it
takes too long to recharge an EV and that hydrogen offers the convenience
of a quick refuel; similar to an ICE refill.
This is the myth big business wants to purvey.”

This statement puzzles me.

Hydrogen DOES offer a quick refill, similar to a gasoline refill. In fact, the 
industry spent a lot to make the experience to consumers as close to a gas 
refill as possible.

Why do you think that’s a myth?

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Dec 14, 2018, at 10:29 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> I think the idea is that it
> takes too long to recharge an EV and that hydrogen offers the convenience
> of a quick refuel; similar to an ICE refill.
> This is the myth big business wants to purvey.

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Re: [EVDL] Toyota and the hydrogen wish.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

I guess you misunderstood me.  Using that statement as an example of what's 
wrong and what big business wants.  I started this thread.  Lawrence Rhodes

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Sun, Dec 16, 2018 at 5:54 AM, robert winfield 
wrote:Mark_your_ statement puzzles me about HydrogenAt least the 
continental US has an electrical grid, part of which my uncles helped build in 
the 1920'sThere are literally Billions of electrical outlets if not trillions, 
all supplying electricity.Why on earth should be build another grid to supply 
Hydrogen when we ALREADY have a grid?
I fail to understand why you want to, at enormous, useless expense, duplicate 
an existing infrastructure.
Money and thought have already spoken, decisions have been made over the last 
100+ yearshydrogen is the loser and electricity the winner.
On Saturday, December 15, 2018, 3:45:06 PM EST, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 “I think the idea is that it
takes too long to recharge an EV and that hydrogen offers the convenience
of a quick refuel; similar to an ICE refill.
This is the myth big business wants to purvey.”

This statement puzzles me.

Hydrogen DOES offer a quick refill, similar to a gasoline refill. In fact, the 
industry spent a lot to make the experience to consumers as close to a gas 
refill as possible.

Why do you think that’s a myth?

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Dec 14, 2018, at 10:29 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> I think the idea is that it
> takes too long to recharge an EV and that hydrogen offers the convenience
> of a quick refuel; similar to an ICE refill.
> This is the myth big business wants to purvey.

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Re: [EVDL] Toyota and the hydrogen wish.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

 Because Mark, they want you to think you are getting a clean product when in 
reality most hydrogen is reformed natural gas.  Not from solar.  So the myth is 
how renewable it is, which it isn't. Lawrence Rhodes 

On Saturday, December 15, 2018, 8:51:49 AM PST, Mark Abramowitz 
 wrote:  
 
 “I think the idea is that it
takes too long to recharge an EV and that hydrogen offers the convenience
of a quick refuel; similar to an ICE refill.
This is the myth big business wants to purvey.”

This statement puzzles me.

Hydrogen DOES offer a quick refill, similar to a gasoline refill. In fact, the 
industry spent a lot to make the experience to consumers as close to a gas 
refill as possible.

Why do you think that’s a myth?

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Dec 14, 2018, at 10:29 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> I think the idea is that it
> takes too long to recharge an EV and that hydrogen offers the convenience
> of a quick refuel; similar to an ICE refill.
> This is the myth big business wants to purvey.
  
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Re: [EVDL] Toyota and the hydrogen wish.

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Mark,
Why myth of quick refill? Because you need to drive 20 minutes to reach the 
nearest H2 refueling station *if* there is one in town.
Going across the street for half hour Level 3 DC Fast Charge is much quicker 
than the “convenience” of a “quick” H2 refill and the most convenient refill is 
pulling into your garage, grabbing the 240V plug and sticking it in until the 
next morning when the “tank” is again full of electrons, preferably home 
produced solar originating.
That scenario (power companies and solar home owners) taking over the lucrative 
fossil fuel industry is scaring the oil companies to no end.
Their only game is convincing authorities that H2 is the way forward and that 
is the only reason that millions are poured into building an already obsolete 
infrastructure, as there are virtually no cars able to use it now nor planned 
to use it in future. Big waste of taxpayer dollars.
But I do not need to tell you this, you know it and you reject that reality, 
we’ve been there before. You have chosen Hydrogen as the solution and are 
promoting it to absurd ends, including your Fuel cell powered cell phone!

Let’s do right to the EVDL and talk about electric cars. Ripping the H2 tanks 
and fuel cell out of a Mirai as I saw some guys do, makes it a whole lot more 
useful as daily driver and there is plenty space for batteries instead of just 
the “Hybrid” pack needed to buffer the fuel cell. But there are hundreds of EV 
models planned, so no need to convert one of the few H2 cars on the road today, 
they will be returned at the end of their lease and then it is mostly Toyota 
who will need to eat the consequences of their choice for H2. Unfortunately I 
can’t go to govt to claim my taxes back for subsidies wasted on Hydrogen 
infrastructure.

However, I can help to build the EV Charging infrastructure of the future and 
that is exactly what I am doing right now.

Regards,
Cor.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Mark Abramowitz via EV
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 12:45 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Mark Abramowitz; Lawrence Rhodes
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Toyota and the hydrogen wish.

“I think the idea is that it
takes too long to recharge an EV and that hydrogen offers the convenience
of a quick refuel; similar to an ICE refill.
This is the myth big business wants to purvey.”

This statement puzzles me.

Hydrogen DOES offer a quick refill, similar to a gasoline refill. In fact, the 
industry spent a lot to make the experience to consumers as close to a gas 
refill as possible.

Why do you think that’s a myth?

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Dec 14, 2018, at 10:29 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> I think the idea is that it
> takes too long to recharge an EV and that hydrogen offers the convenience
> of a quick refuel; similar to an ICE refill.
> This is the myth big business wants to purvey.

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Re: [EVDL] Toyota and the hydrogen wish.

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

“I think the idea is that it
takes too long to recharge an EV and that hydrogen offers the convenience
of a quick refuel; similar to an ICE refill.
This is the myth big business wants to purvey.”

This statement puzzles me.

Hydrogen DOES offer a quick refill, similar to a gasoline refill. In fact, the 
industry spent a lot to make the experience to consumers as close to a gas 
refill as possible.

Why do you think that’s a myth?

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Dec 14, 2018, at 10:29 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> I think the idea is that it
> takes too long to recharge an EV and that hydrogen offers the convenience
> of a quick refuel; similar to an ICE refill.
> This is the myth big business wants to purvey.

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Re: [EVDL] Toyota and the hydrogen wish.

[Lee Hart via EV]

Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

I like the last idea - Teslas to senators - but, I believe, it violates
the gifts ethics rules. Oh, well. It would be effective.


I like the idea, too. :-) Apple did something similar, by selling their 
computers to schools cheap, or even giving them away. It got their foot 
in the door, and went a long way toward training the students into 
future computer lovers!


--
Ten Universal Truths for this holiday season:
 1. Show respect for others. Each person has a special gift.
 2. Share what you have. Giving makes you richer.
 3. Know who you are. You are a reflection of your family.
 4. Accept what life brings. There are many things you cannot control.
 5. Have patience. Some things cannot be rushed.
 6. Live carefully. What you do will come back to you.
 7. Take care of others. You cannot live without them.
 8. Honor your elders. They show you the way in life.
 9. Pray for guidance. Many things are not known.
10. See connections. All things are related.
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Toyota and the hydrogen wish.

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I like the last idea - Teslas to senators - but, I believe, it violates 
the gifts ethics rules. Oh, well. It would be effective.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Willie via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Willie" 
Sent: 14-Dec-18 12:39:25 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Toyota and the hydrogen wish.




On 12/14/18 12:29 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
performance.  If you gave every driver in the country an electric car 
for a month and explained the cost difference...we'd all be driving 
electric.


Completely agree.  But, cost prohibitive.  Perhaps relatively few cars 
sequenced through the population.


In another discussion forum, I've proposed that the 25 district highway 
engineers in Texas be given or given access to Teslas.  Those 25 people 
independently control much of the nitty gritty of highway design and 
maintenance in different geographical areas.  That, in an educational 
effort to drive home the need for intelligent and uniform lane markings 
which would make the AutoPilot job easier.  I fully recognize the risk 
of bribery charges.


For general EV promotion, Teslas given to all US Senators and 
Representatives would go a long way.  With Tesla's current size, the 
cost of a thousand or so cars would be trivial.  And probably cheaper 
than their current lobby cost.



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Re: [EVDL] Toyota and the hydrogen wish.

[Willie via EV]

On 12/14/18 12:29 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
 performance.  If you gave every driver in the country an electric car 
for a month and explained the cost difference...we'd all be driving 
electric.


Completely agree.  But, cost prohibitive.  Perhaps relatively few cars 
sequenced through the population.


In another discussion forum, I've proposed that the 25 district highway 
engineers in Texas be given or given access to Teslas.  Those 25 people 
independently control much of the nitty gritty of highway design and 
maintenance in different geographical areas.  That, in an educational 
effort to drive home the need for intelligent and uniform lane markings 
which would make the AutoPilot job easier.  I fully recognize the risk 
of bribery charges.


For general EV promotion, Teslas given to all US Senators and 
Representatives would go a long way.  With Tesla's current size, the 
cost of a thousand or so cars would be trivial.  And probably cheaper 
than their current lobby cost.



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[EVDL] Toyota and the hydrogen wish.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

I've seen some professionally done videos suggesting that hydrogen will be
the "fuel" in the later half of this century.  I think the idea is that it
takes too long to recharge an EV and that hydrogen offers the convenience
of a quick refuel; similar to an ICE refill.
This is the myth big business wants to purvey.  Gasoline and diesel are simply 
a way of controlling the energy source and make obscene profit.  Clearly the 
distributed method of electricity is better for the consumer.  When solar and 
other renewables peak the price point of energy will be near free.  Those who 
don't get it are bound by fear of the unknown electric car performance.  If you 
gave every driver in the country an electric car for a month and explained the 
cost difference...we'd all be driving electric.  Lawrence Rhodes
  
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