Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[Lee Hart via EV]

Robert Johnston via EV wrote:

Okay, I've been looking into/thinking about this for a bit, and I see
several ways this could be handled.

1. Electrified rail


Still widely used around the world, especially for commuter trains. A 
practical solution that has stood the test of time.



2. Pantagraphs


These have also been used for over 100 years right up to the present. 
The huge Pennsylvania railroad electrified 40% of the tracks with 
overhead wires and pantographs, many of which are still in use.


City buses were also frequently electrified with overhead wires. Last I 
knew, Seattle WA city buses still use this method.



3. Batteries on the trailer


That makes good sense. Since trailers are usually parked outside, PV 
panels on the roof could be a significant source of power for charging.



4. Solar Roadways


Yes; not in the roadway, but alongside the right of way. PV panels along 
the roadway have become pretty common for powering lighting, 
communication, and advertising signs. Given the penchant to always have 
a sign in sight along highways, there could be ample opportunities to 
add PV to most or all of them.



5. Solar roofs on warehouses, solar covered parking for trucks, trailers
and tractors


Yes again.


Industry has shown it can co-operate. Look at the standardized sizes of
shipping containers, and palettes, for instance. Or the standard "Fifth
Wheel" system.


Well... industry cooperates when *forced* to do so. Who will have the 
"guts" to force them to standardize on EV charging, battery sizes, PV 
panels and systems?


What I see so far are standards that seek to monopolize or monetize systems.


I'm not saying any of these are perfect solutions, and they will all take
work and investment to achieve; but they are possible, would make a not
inconsiderable difference, and can be done right now.


Yes, alternative solutions always exist that can be practical and 
economically feasible. However, the established vested interests will 
work very hard to prevent any new system from supplanting the ones they 
already have.


Breaking free of "the way we've always done it" requires some disruptive 
element that's powerful enough to force a tipping point. It's happened 
before: The printing press, the electric light bulb, and the 
microcomputer are all examples of technologies that were powerful enough 
to break the status quo and so change the world.


EVs may have that same kind of power; but they haven't reached the 
"tipping point" yet.


Lee

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Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[Alan Arrison via EV]

Excellent ideas Robert.

On 11/25/2022 2:33 PM, Robert Johnston via EV wrote:

Okay, I've been looking into/thinking about this for a bit, and I see
several ways this could be handled.



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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[Robert Johnston via EV]

ke the rig to its final route.
>
> Part of the idea, here, is to reduce rolling resistance. The second part
> is to travel in "trains" so that the wind resistance is also reduced.
>
> This idea is riddled with logistics problems and also liability issues.
> Is it worth thinking about ? Can clever people figure out a way to make
> it work ?
>
> Oh, and I'm assuming these would be EV tractors. Clearly, on steel
> rails, the battery size would be greatly reduced.
>
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> ------ Original Message --
> From: "Lawrence Winiarski via EV" 
> To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
> Cc: "Lawrence Winiarski" 
> Sent: 25-Nov-22 03:41:50
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast
>
> >I know this will sound like sacrilege on EVDL, but does it really make
> sense to have battery powered Semitrailer trucks?Isn't it kind of
> carryingthings a little too far?
> >
> >On a practical note, a lot of electricity is met on the grid with natural
> gas generators for demand as they can be spun up and down fairly easily
> toaccount for variable production and demand.
> >
> >  Wouldn't it make more sense to just power the truck itself on Natural
> Gas and skip the power lines/grid/demand/chargestations...etc
> >It would also save on 10-20,000 lbs of batteries. not require big
> investments, much faster "recharge", and believe it or not, diesels can bet
> easily
> >retrofitted to use Natural Gas.   (They just aspirate the air intake with
> nat gas and still use a small amount of diesel for the "spark".
>  It'sbeen done in other countries, but for some reason it's just ignored
> here in the US.
> >
> >I was very interested in Natural Gas powered vehicles at one time.
> Largely ignored in the US.
> >There are a lot of good reasons (environmentally and economical) to
> consider them.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thursday, November 24, 2022, 2:48:27 PM PST, Matthew Pitts via EV
>  wrote:
> >
> >  So you foresee a time in the US where the railroads handle the bulk of
> the
> >cross-country shipping like they used to? Because that's pretty much the
> >only way I can see EV semi trucks not being used for over the road
> >operation. And if full day rate charging is cheaper than the cost of a
> tank
> >of fuel (currently $5+ per Imperial Gallon in the US), I suspect most any
> >shipping company would be fine with it.
> >Matthew Pitts
> >Get BlueMail <https://bluemail.me> for Desktop
> >Bill Dube via EV wrote:
> >Fast charging during the day will be expensive for trucks and thus be
> >unpopular.
> >The fast charger operator will take a cut, and the grid operator will
> >charge peak rates for electricity.
> >Passenger EV's don't typically use fast chargers, they charge at more
> >reasonable speeds and rates at home. You want to take a trip, then you are
> >willing to pay extra to fast charge on the road. Fast charging is like
> >eating in a restaurant. Most folks see it as a waste of money on a daily
> >basis and eat at home for far less money.
> >Economics will shape the industry and will determine how and when trucks
> >will charge. Unlike passenger cars, trucks are very price sensitive and
> >will opt for the least expensive option. The available surplus grid
> >capacity will set the price of electricity, and the trucking industry will
> >find the most economical electricity price.
> >EV trucks will seldom be recharged on route at high electricity costs with
> >the driver being paid to wait. It is not economic as the trucking company
> >will lose money and it simply will not be done. (Or be done rarely.) EV
> >trucks will no doubt be used for runs that are within their battery range.
> >Bill D.
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-- 
Robert "Anaerin" Johnston
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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

IMHO, battery power for long haul trucking is a piss poor application.  Local 
delivery, sure, but not long haul.

Electric trains would be a FAR better method for long haul transportation.  You 
could have two separate train tracks.  One for priority goods and passengers, 
and one for less time critical transportation.
The second option can be set up to only move the trains where there is a 
surplus of power from renewable sources, etc.

Not that I really expect this to happen, but it seems like a much better 
solution to me.


My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key

November 24, 2022 12:17 AM, "Peri Hartman via EV"  wrote:

> Bill, I don't have any axe to grind here, but the issue was about providing 
> power to charge long
> haul trucks. While I think your argument works well for small trucks and 
> domestic cars, I'd like to
> see what you have to say about long haul trucks. I highly respect your points 
> of view.
> 
> Peri
> 
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org >>
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Bill Dube via EV" 
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: "Bill Dube" 
> Sent: 23-Nov-22 14:55:48
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast
> 
>> No need upgrade the grid. None. Just need a few incentives and a little 
>> intelligence.
>> 
>> There is a lot of misinformation about this, here on the EVDL even.
>> 
>> Grid capacity problem ? >>>>>>>>>>>
>> 
>> There is LOTS of power available on the grid, just not at the peak times of 
>> the day. No problem
>> what-so-ever. EVs are _driven_ during the day, and are charged when they are 
>> parked, during the
>> night. Provide an economic incentive to folks to change off peak and the 
>> grid capacity "problem"
>> vanishes.
>> 
>> Solar power is during the day, while you are at work. How do you charge from 
>> solar? <<<<
>> 
>> It is a power grid. You put power in at one location, and you can take it 
>> out at another. This is
>> what it does. Use it.
>> 
>> If your home solar panels are providing surplus power to the grid, you can 
>> draw it out from a
>> location other than your home to charge your EV. It is simply a matter of 
>> giving the grid operator
>> incentive to take a reasonable fee for doing this. Legislation, financial 
>> incentive, public
>> sentiment, etc. No brainer.
>> 
>> EV power is no different than washers, driers, stoves, electric heat, etc. 
>> <<<<<<
>> 
>> The grid has gone through decades of constant evolution. It has very nicely 
>> adapted and upgraded
>> with the advent of air conditioning, electric heat, and power hungry home 
>> appliances.
>> 
>> As EVs slowly ramp up in popularity, the grid operators will adapt. EVs and 
>> EV chargers can easily
>> be quickly switched off and back on to "park shave" during periods of peak 
>> load. The grid operators
>> simply have to decide on which of the many methods they want to use to talk 
>> to your EV or your
>> charger, and offer you an incentive to participate.
>> 
>> Bill D.
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[paul dove via EV]

You mean industry cooperation for the good of all. We are in competition in the 
US, corporate profits are all that matters   


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, November 25, 2022, 10:11 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:

I don't know of methane would, on average, produce less CO2 if used 
directly in long haul trucking versus using the grid to charge 
batteries.

But, the biggest savings would come from reducing rolling resistance, 
regardless of type of energy used. The best way, from a physics point of 
view, would be to use steel rails.

We have plenty of railroad systems throughout the US but they are not 
fully used for transporting freight. Presumably this is because there is 
too much overhead to build trains out of containers, get them to a major 
center, and then break them apart and into short haul trucking. I have a 
crazy idea on how to improve that. Could it be made to work ?

Imagine if semis - both tractor and trailer - were fitted with railroad 
compatible wheels, which could be lowered easily to engage with rails 
and equally easily raised when not needed. Also imagine new sidings 
added to the railroad systems where truckers could position their rigs, 
lower the wheels, and a guideway or mechanism would automatically align 
them on the rails.

The process would be for a local haul driver to go to one of these 
sidings, press a button to drop the wheels, and exit the cab and leave. 
The rest would be computer controlled. The rig would leave the siding 
and, wait for a group of semis to come along. When that happens, the 
group would stop, the new rig would join the tail of the group (but not 
hitched in any way) and the group would take off again. When the rig 
reaches its destination, the opposite would happen. A new local driver 
would take the rig to its final route.

Part of the idea, here, is to reduce rolling resistance. The second part 
is to travel in "trains" so that the wind resistance is also reduced.

This idea is riddled with logistics problems and also liability issues. 
Is it worth thinking about ? Can clever people figure out a way to make 
it work ?

Oh, and I'm assuming these would be EV tractors. Clearly, on steel 
rails, the battery size would be greatly reduced.

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Winiarski via EV" 
To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
Cc: "Lawrence Winiarski" 
Sent: 25-Nov-22 03:41:50
Subject: Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

>I know this will sound like sacrilege on EVDL, but does it really make sense 
>to have battery powered Semitrailer trucks?    Isn't it kind of carryingthings 
>a little too far?
>
>On a practical note, a lot of electricity is met on the grid with natural gas 
>generators for demand as they can be spun up and down fairly easily toaccount 
>for variable production and demand.
>
>  Wouldn't it make more sense to just power the truck itself on Natural Gas 
>and skip the power lines/grid/demand/chargestations...etc
>It would also save on 10-20,000 lbs of batteries. not require big investments, 
>much faster "recharge", and believe it or not, diesels can bet easily
>retrofitted to use Natural Gas.  (They just aspirate the air intake with nat 
>gas and still use a small amount of diesel for the "spark".    It'sbeen done 
>in other countries, but for some reason it's just ignored here in the US.
>
>I was very interested in Natural Gas powered vehicles at one time.      
>Largely ignored in the US.
>    There are a lot of good reasons (environmentally and economical) to 
>consider them.
>
>
>
>
>    On Thursday, November 24, 2022, 2:48:27 PM PST, Matthew Pitts via EV 
> wrote:
>
>  So you foresee a time in the US where the railroads handle the bulk of the
>cross-country shipping like they used to? Because that's pretty much the
>only way I can see EV semi trucks not being used for over the road
>operation. And if full day rate charging is cheaper than the cost of a tank
>of fuel (currently $5+ per Imperial Gallon in the US), I suspect most any
>shipping company would be fine with it.
>Matthew Pitts
>Get BlueMail <https://bluemail.me> for Desktop
>Bill Dube via EV wrote:
>Fast charging during the day will be expensive for trucks and thus be
>unpopular.
>The fast charger operator will take a cut, and the grid operator will
>charge peak rates for electricity.
>Passenger EV's don't typically use fast chargers, they charge at more
>reasonable speeds and rates at home. You want to take a trip, then you are
>willing to pay extra to fast charge on the road. Fast charging is like
>eating in a restaurant. Most folks see it as a waste of money on a daily
>basis and eat at home for far less money.
>Economics will shape the in

Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I don't know of methane would, on average, produce less CO2 if used 
directly in long haul trucking versus using the grid to charge 
batteries.


But, the biggest savings would come from reducing rolling resistance, 
regardless of type of energy used. The best way, from a physics point of 
view, would be to use steel rails.


We have plenty of railroad systems throughout the US but they are not 
fully used for transporting freight. Presumably this is because there is 
too much overhead to build trains out of containers, get them to a major 
center, and then break them apart and into short haul trucking. I have a 
crazy idea on how to improve that. Could it be made to work ?


Imagine if semis - both tractor and trailer - were fitted with railroad 
compatible wheels, which could be lowered easily to engage with rails 
and equally easily raised when not needed. Also imagine new sidings 
added to the railroad systems where truckers could position their rigs, 
lower the wheels, and a guideway or mechanism would automatically align 
them on the rails.


The process would be for a local haul driver to go to one of these 
sidings, press a button to drop the wheels, and exit the cab and leave. 
The rest would be computer controlled. The rig would leave the siding 
and, wait for a group of semis to come along. When that happens, the 
group would stop, the new rig would join the tail of the group (but not 
hitched in any way) and the group would take off again. When the rig 
reaches its destination, the opposite would happen. A new local driver 
would take the rig to its final route.


Part of the idea, here, is to reduce rolling resistance. The second part 
is to travel in "trains" so that the wind resistance is also reduced.


This idea is riddled with logistics problems and also liability issues. 
Is it worth thinking about ? Can clever people figure out a way to make 
it work ?


Oh, and I'm assuming these would be EV tractors. Clearly, on steel 
rails, the battery size would be greatly reduced.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Winiarski via EV" 
To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
Cc: "Lawrence Winiarski" 
Sent: 25-Nov-22 03:41:50
Subject: Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast


I know this will sound like sacrilege on EVDL, but does it really make sense to 
have battery powered Semitrailer trucks?Isn't it kind of carryingthings a 
little too far?

On a practical note, a lot of electricity is met on the grid with natural gas 
generators for demand as they can be spun up and down fairly easily toaccount 
for variable production and demand.

 Wouldn't it make more sense to just power the truck itself on Natural Gas and 
skip the power lines/grid/demand/chargestations...etc
It would also save on 10-20,000 lbs of batteries. not require big investments, much 
faster "recharge", and believe it or not, diesels can bet easily
retrofitted to use Natural Gas.   (They just aspirate the air intake with nat gas and 
still use a small amount of diesel for the "spark". It'sbeen done in other 
countries, but for some reason it's just ignored here in the US.

I was very interested in Natural Gas powered vehicles at one time.  Largely 
ignored in the US.
   There are a lot of good reasons (environmentally and economical) to consider 
them.




On Thursday, November 24, 2022, 2:48:27 PM PST, Matthew Pitts via EV 
 wrote:

 So you foresee a time in the US where the railroads handle the bulk of the
cross-country shipping like they used to? Because that's pretty much the
only way I can see EV semi trucks not being used for over the road
operation. And if full day rate charging is cheaper than the cost of a tank
of fuel (currently $5+ per Imperial Gallon in the US), I suspect most any
shipping company would be fine with it.
Matthew Pitts
Get BlueMail <https://bluemail.me> for Desktop
Bill Dube via EV wrote:
Fast charging during the day will be expensive for trucks and thus be
unpopular.
The fast charger operator will take a cut, and the grid operator will
charge peak rates for electricity.
Passenger EV's don't typically use fast chargers, they charge at more
reasonable speeds and rates at home. You want to take a trip, then you are
willing to pay extra to fast charge on the road. Fast charging is like
eating in a restaurant. Most folks see it as a waste of money on a daily
basis and eat at home for far less money.
Economics will shape the industry and will determine how and when trucks
will charge. Unlike passenger cars, trucks are very price sensitive and
will opt for the least expensive option. The available surplus grid
capacity will set the price of electricity, and the trucking industry will
find the most economical electricity price.
EV trucks will seldom be recharged on route at high electricity costs with
the driver being paid to wait. It is not e

Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

I know this will sound like sacrilege on EVDL, but does it really make sense to 
have battery powered Semitrailer trucks?    Isn't it kind of carryingthings a 
little too far?  

On a practical note, a lot of electricity is met on the grid with natural gas 
generators for demand as they can be spun up and down fairly easily toaccount 
for variable production and demand.

 Wouldn't it make more sense to just power the truck itself on Natural Gas and 
skip the power lines/grid/demand/chargestations...etc
It would also save on 10-20,000 lbs of batteries. not require big investments, 
much faster "recharge", and believe it or not, diesels can bet easily 
retrofitted to use Natural Gas.   (They just aspirate the air intake with nat 
gas and still use a small amount of diesel for the "spark".     It'sbeen done 
in other countries, but for some reason it's just ignored here in the US.

I was very interested in Natural Gas powered vehicles at one time.      Largely 
ignored in the US.
   There are a lot of good reasons (environmentally and economical) to consider 
them.    


 

On Thursday, November 24, 2022, 2:48:27 PM PST, Matthew Pitts via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 So you foresee a time in the US where the railroads handle the bulk of the 
cross-country shipping like they used to? Because that's pretty much the 
only way I can see EV semi trucks not being used for over the road 
operation. And if full day rate charging is cheaper than the cost of a tank 
of fuel (currently $5+ per Imperial Gallon in the US), I suspect most any 
shipping company would be fine with it.
Matthew Pitts
Get BlueMail  for Desktop
Bill Dube via EV wrote:
Fast charging during the day will be expensive for trucks and thus be 
unpopular.
The fast charger operator will take a cut, and the grid operator will 
charge peak rates for electricity.
Passenger EV's don't typically use fast chargers, they charge at more 
reasonable speeds and rates at home. You want to take a trip, then you are 
willing to pay extra to fast charge on the road. Fast charging is like 
eating in a restaurant. Most folks see it as a waste of money on a daily 
basis and eat at home for far less money.
Economics will shape the industry and will determine how and when trucks 
will charge. Unlike passenger cars, trucks are very price sensitive and 
will opt for the least expensive option. The available surplus grid 
capacity will set the price of electricity, and the trucking industry will 
find the most economical electricity price.
EV trucks will seldom be recharged on route at high electricity costs with 
the driver being paid to wait. It is not economic as the trucking company 
will lose money and it simply will not be done. (Or be done rarely.) EV 
trucks will no doubt be used for runs that are within their battery range.
Bill D.
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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[paul dove via EV]

That’s not a problem. Get the Tesla supercharger app. They didn’t impact the 
grid. 


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, November 24, 2022, 10:39 AM, Matthew Pitts via EV 
 wrote:

Peri,
The problem is that you'll need far more locations to charge EV Semi Trucks 
than just at current Truck Stop locations, because quite often drivers stop 
to sleep at rest areas along the interstate highway system. We actually do 
need a massive upgrade to the grid to compensate for the shift in charging 
locations.
Matthew Pitts
Get BlueMail <https://bluemail.me> for Desktop
Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
Hi Bill,
I'm going to push back, not specifically to argue, but to get clearer on 
the details. I hope you can fill in where I'm vague or counter where I'm 
wrong.
If an EV semi can charge overnight, that helps. Let's sketch some calcs.
Let's say overnight is 10 hours and the battery is 1MWh. If just one truck 
charges, that's a benign 100kW supply. According to
https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/infrastructure/truck_parking/jasons_law/truckparkingsurvey/ch2.htm#:~:text=Approximately%2039%20percent%20of%20facilities,provide%2025%20to%2099%20spaces.=The%20presence%20of%20shower%20facilities,meals%2C%20entertainment%2C%20etc.)

39% have 1-24 overnight spaces and 40% have 25 to 99. Let's use 50 trucks 
in this sketch. So the typical truck stop needs to accommodate 50 * 100kW = 
5MW. That's a pretty good load.
Sure, local PV + a huge battery on site would help, but I think the grid 
has to be part of the solution. I presume 5MW in most locations is still 
not a big problem, though.
But, now, let's look a short term rapid charging. While truck drivers on 
long trips do need to stop overnight (or over day) to sleep, if they drive 
500 miles in a day, they'll almost certainly need to charge at least once 
en route. Let's say for one hour at 500kWh. At any given moment, there 
could be (guessing) 20 trucks stopped for an hour. That would be a 10MW 
power draw. Now, I'll guess, the grid could be pushed beyond capacity along 
some highways. Don't forget, the grid is also going to have to handle new 
loads from EV cars, etc.
A large local battery and solar panels would help by evening out the peaks 
and, perhaps, storing some energy captured during the day for use at night. 
And, over time, perhaps it could be built out enough to be quite 
significant. But the grid still needs to be there because, you know, there 
are cloudy days, etc.
And, yes, truck drivers do drive at night. My anecdotal experience along 
the I5 corridor on the US west coast is that most trucks are on the freeway 
at night. There's too much traffic during the day. That means, "overnight" 
charging can happen during the day.
In summary, I don't know enough about grid capacity to know how many 
highways could handle these example loads or not. Your point is well taken 
that, if truckers can charge during periods when there's less load on the 
grid, that will help significantly. Perhaps most can. I can imagine new 
apps that give real time variable pricing and pricing projections, e.g. 
charging available in 10 miles at $0.20/kWh now, or in 100 miles, two hours 
awat at $0.12/kWh, giving the driver some choices to mull over.
Peri
<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
-- Original Message --
 From: "Bill Dube via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Bill Dube" 
Sent: 24-Nov-22 03:34:33
Subject: Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast
Hi Peri,
Also, trucks tend to be driven during daylight hours (not always, but 
mainly.) Trucks only charge when they are not moving, keep in mind.
The few EV semi-trucks that I have actually seen here in Auckland seem to 
have (at this time) battery packs that are designed to be swapped out 
quickly for charging. They will tend to charge these spare packs when is it 
least expensive to do so.
Both the daylight driving and the swappable packs will push charging 
off-peak, where power is plentiful and cheap. The grid only has issues 
during periods of peak demand, typically in the late afternoon. For most of 
the 24 hours in a day, the grid operators have surplus capacity. During the 
late evening and before dawn, they have _heaps_ of surplus capacity. They 
would be overjoyed to sell this wasted excess grid capacity if they could 
do so.
The trucking industry is very price sensitive. If they can buy fuel for a 
few cents less, then they will alter their schedule to do so. The grid 
operators simply have to offer some sort of off-peak charging incentive (or 
an on-peak charging surcharge) and the "problem" is easily solved.
Here in Auckland, they often operate the residential (electric) water 
heaters on a system that is controlled by the power utility. The utility 
will switch off the water heater element during peak times to move the 
consumption to help grid capacity. All done with "ripple signals" from the 
utility ove

Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[Matthew Pitts via EV]

So you foresee a time in the US where the railroads handle the bulk of the 
cross-country shipping like they used to? Because that's pretty much the 
only way I can see EV semi trucks not being used for over the road 
operation. And if full day rate charging is cheaper than the cost of a tank 
of fuel (currently $5+ per Imperial Gallon in the US), I suspect most any 
shipping company would be fine with it.

Matthew Pitts
Get BlueMail  for Desktop
Bill Dube via EV wrote:
Fast charging during the day will be expensive for trucks and thus be 
unpopular.
The fast charger operator will take a cut, and the grid operator will 
charge peak rates for electricity.
Passenger EV's don't typically use fast chargers, they charge at more 
reasonable speeds and rates at home. You want to take a trip, then you are 
willing to pay extra to fast charge on the road. Fast charging is like 
eating in a restaurant. Most folks see it as a waste of money on a daily 
basis and eat at home for far less money.
Economics will shape the industry and will determine how and when trucks 
will charge. Unlike passenger cars, trucks are very price sensitive and 
will opt for the least expensive option. The available surplus grid 
capacity will set the price of electricity, and the trucking industry will 
find the most economical electricity price.
EV trucks will seldom be recharged on route at high electricity costs with 
the driver being paid to wait. It is not economic as the trucking company 
will lose money and it simply will not be done. (Or be done rarely.) EV 
trucks will no doubt be used for runs that are within their battery range.

Bill D.
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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[Bill Dube via EV]

Fast charging during the day will be expensive for trucks and thus be 
unpopular.
The fast charger operator will take a cut, and the grid operator will 
charge peak rates for electricity.


Passenger EV's don't typically use fast chargers, they charge at more 
reasonable speeds and rates at home. You want to take a trip, then you 
are willing to pay extra to fast charge on the road. Fast charging is 
like eating in a restaurant. Most folks see it as a waste of money on a 
daily basis and eat at home for far less money.


Economics will shape the industry and will determine how and when trucks 
will charge. Unlike passenger cars, trucks are very price sensitive and 
will opt for the least expensive option. The available surplus grid 
capacity will set the price of electricity, and the trucking industry 
will find the most economical electricity price.


EV trucks will seldom be recharged on route at high electricity costs 
with the driver being paid to wait. It is not economic as the trucking 
company will lose money and it simply will not be done. (Or be done 
rarely.) EV trucks will no doubt be used for runs that are within their 
battery range.


Bill D.


On 11/25/2022 4:58 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

Hi Bill,

I'm going to push back, not specifically to argue, but to get clearer 
on the details. I hope you can fill in where I'm vague or counter 
where I'm wrong.


If an EV semi can charge overnight, that helps. Let's sketch some calcs.

Let's say overnight is 10 hours and the battery is 1MWh. If just one 
truck charges, that's a benign 100kW supply. According to
https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/infrastructure/truck_parking/jasons_law/truckparkingsurvey/ch2.htm#:~:text=Approximately%2039%20percent%20of%20facilities,provide%2025%20to%2099%20spaces.=The%20presence%20of%20shower%20facilities,meals%2C%20entertainment%2C%20etc.) 

39% have 1-24 overnight spaces and 40% have 25 to 99. Let's use 50 
trucks in this sketch. So the typical truck stop needs to accommodate 
50 * 100kW = 5MW. That's a pretty good load.


Sure, local PV + a huge battery on site would help, but I think the 
grid has to be part of the solution. I presume 5MW in most locations 
is still not a big problem, though.


But, now, let's look a short term rapid charging. While truck drivers 
on long trips do need to stop overnight (or over day) to sleep, if 
they drive 500 miles in a day, they'll almost certainly need to charge 
at least once en route. Let's say for one hour at 500kWh. At any given 
moment, there could be (guessing) 20 trucks stopped for an hour. That 
would be a 10MW power draw. Now, I'll guess, the grid could be pushed 
beyond capacity along some highways. Don't forget, the grid is also 
going to have to handle new loads from EV cars, etc.


A large local battery and solar panels would help by evening out the 
peaks and, perhaps, storing some energy captured during the day for 
use at night. And, over time, perhaps it could be built out enough to 
be quite significant. But the grid still needs to be there because, 
you know, there are cloudy days, etc.


And, yes, truck drivers do drive at night. My anecdotal experience 
along the I5 corridor on the US west coast is that most trucks are on 
the freeway at night. There's too much traffic during the day. That 
means, "overnight" charging can happen during the day.


In summary, I don't know enough about grid capacity to know how many 
highways could handle these example loads or not. Your point is well 
taken that, if truckers can charge during periods when there's less 
load on the grid, that will help significantly. Perhaps most can. I 
can imagine new apps that give real time variable pricing and pricing 
projections, e.g. charging available in 10 miles at $0.20/kWh now, or 
in 100 miles, two hours awat at $0.12/kWh, giving the driver some 
choices to mull over.


Peri


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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Absolutely agree. I was just trying to come up with a useful example to 
extrapolate from.


<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Matthew Pitts" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Peri Hartman" 
Sent: 24-Nov-22 08:38:31
Subject: Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast


Peri,

The problem is that you'll need far more locations to charge EV Semi 
Trucks than just at current Truck Stop locations, because quite often 
drivers stop to sleep at rest areas along the interstate highway 
system. We actually do need a massive upgrade to the grid to compensate 
for the shift in charging locations.


Matthew Pitts

Get BlueMail <https://bluemail.me> for Desktop

Peri Hartman via EV wrote:



Hi Bill,

I'm going to push back, not specifically to argue, but to get clearer 
on the details. I hope you can fill in where I'm vague or counter 
where I'm wrong.


If an EV semi can charge overnight, that helps. Let's sketch some 
calcs.


Let's say overnight is 10 hours and the battery is 1MWh. If just one 
truck charges, that's a benign 100kW supply. According to

https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/infrastructure/truck_parking/jasons_law/truckparkingsurvey/ch2.htm#:~:text=Approximately%2039%20percent%20of%20facilities,provide%2025%20to%2099%20spaces.=The%20presence%20of%20shower%20facilities,meals%2C%20entertainment%2C%20etc.)
39% have 1-24 overnight spaces and 40% have 25 to 99. Let's use 50 
trucks in this sketch. So the typical truck stop needs to accommodate 
50 * 100kW = 5MW. That's a pretty good load.


Sure, local PV + a huge battery on site would help, but I think the 
grid has to be part of the solution. I presume 5MW in most locations 
is still not a big problem, though.


But, now, let's look a short term rapid charging. While truck drivers 
on long trips do need to stop overnight (or over day) to sleep, if 
they drive 500 miles in a day, they'll almost certainly need to charge 
at least once en route. Let's say for one hour at 500kWh. At any given 
moment, there could be (guessing) 20 trucks stopped for an hour. That 
would be a 10MW power draw. Now, I'll guess, the grid could be pushed 
beyond capacity along some highways. Don't forget, the grid is also 
going to have to handle new loads from EV cars, etc.


A large local battery and solar panels would help by evening out the 
peaks and, perhaps, storing some energy captured during the day for 
use at night. And, over time, perhaps it could be built out enough to 
be quite significant. But the grid still needs to be there because, 
you know, there are cloudy days, etc.


And, yes, truck drivers do drive at night. My anecdotal experience 
along the I5 corridor on the US west coast is that most trucks are on 
the freeway at night. There's too much traffic during the day. That 
means, "overnight" charging can happen during the day.


In summary, I don't know enough about grid capacity to know how many 
highways could handle these example loads or not. Your point is well 
taken that, if truckers can charge during periods when there's less 
load on the grid, that will help significantly. Perhaps most can. I 
can imagine new apps that give real time variable pricing and pricing 
projections, e.g. charging available in 10 miles at $0.20/kWh now, or 
in 100 miles, two hours awat at $0.12/kWh, giving the driver some 
choices to mull over.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Dube via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Bill Dube" 
Sent: 24-Nov-22 03:34:33
Subject: Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast



Hi Peri,


  Also, trucks tend to be driven during daylight hours (not always, 
but mainly.) Trucks only charge when they are not moving, keep in 
mind.
  The few EV semi-trucks that I have actually seen here in Auckland 
seem to have (at this time) battery packs that are designed to be 
swapped out quickly for charging.They will tend to charge these 
spare packs when is it least expensive to do so.


  Both  the daylight driving and the swappable packs will push 
charging off-peak, where power is plentiful and cheap. The grid only 
has issues during periods of peak demand, typically in the late 
afternoon. For most of the 24 hours in a day, the grid operators have 
surplus capacity. During the late evening and before dawn, they have 
_heaps_ of surplus capacity. They would be overjoyed to sell this 
wasted excess grid capacity if they could do so.


  The trucking industry is very price sensitive. If they can buy fuel 
for a few cents less, then they will alter their schedule to do so. 
The grid operators simply have to offer some sort of off-peak 
charging incentive (or an on-peak charging surcharge) and the 
"problem" is easily solved.


  Here in Auckland, they often operate the residential (electric) 
water

Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[Matthew Pitts via EV]

Peri,
The problem is that you'll need far more locations to charge EV Semi Trucks 
than just at current Truck Stop locations, because quite often drivers stop 
to sleep at rest areas along the interstate highway system. We actually do 
need a massive upgrade to the grid to compensate for the shift in charging 
locations.

Matthew Pitts
Get BlueMail <https://bluemail.me> for Desktop
Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
Hi Bill,
I'm going to push back, not specifically to argue, but to get clearer on 
the details. I hope you can fill in where I'm vague or counter where I'm 
wrong.

If an EV semi can charge overnight, that helps. Let's sketch some calcs.
Let's say overnight is 10 hours and the battery is 1MWh. If just one truck 
charges, that's a benign 100kW supply. According to

https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/infrastructure/truck_parking/jasons_law/truckparkingsurvey/ch2.htm#:~:text=Approximately%2039%20percent%20of%20facilities,provide%2025%20to%2099%20spaces.=The%20presence%20of%20shower%20facilities,meals%2C%20entertainment%2C%20etc.)

39% have 1-24 overnight spaces and 40% have 25 to 99. Let's use 50 trucks 
in this sketch. So the typical truck stop needs to accommodate 50 * 100kW = 
5MW. That's a pretty good load.
Sure, local PV + a huge battery on site would help, but I think the grid 
has to be part of the solution. I presume 5MW in most locations is still 
not a big problem, though.
But, now, let's look a short term rapid charging. While truck drivers on 
long trips do need to stop overnight (or over day) to sleep, if they drive 
500 miles in a day, they'll almost certainly need to charge at least once 
en route. Let's say for one hour at 500kWh. At any given moment, there 
could be (guessing) 20 trucks stopped for an hour. That would be a 10MW 
power draw. Now, I'll guess, the grid could be pushed beyond capacity along 
some highways. Don't forget, the grid is also going to have to handle new 
loads from EV cars, etc.
A large local battery and solar panels would help by evening out the peaks 
and, perhaps, storing some energy captured during the day for use at night. 
And, over time, perhaps it could be built out enough to be quite 
significant. But the grid still needs to be there because, you know, there 
are cloudy days, etc.
And, yes, truck drivers do drive at night. My anecdotal experience along 
the I5 corridor on the US west coast is that most trucks are on the freeway 
at night. There's too much traffic during the day. That means, "overnight" 
charging can happen during the day.
In summary, I don't know enough about grid capacity to know how many 
highways could handle these example loads or not. Your point is well taken 
that, if truckers can charge during periods when there's less load on the 
grid, that will help significantly. Perhaps most can. I can imagine new 
apps that give real time variable pricing and pricing projections, e.g. 
charging available in 10 miles at $0.20/kWh now, or in 100 miles, two hours 
awat at $0.12/kWh, giving the driver some choices to mull over.

Peri
<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Dube via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Bill Dube" 
Sent: 24-Nov-22 03:34:33
Subject: Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast
Hi Peri,
Also, trucks tend to be driven during daylight hours (not always, but 
mainly.) Trucks only charge when they are not moving, keep in mind.
The few EV semi-trucks that I have actually seen here in Auckland seem to 
have (at this time) battery packs that are designed to be swapped out 
quickly for charging. They will tend to charge these spare packs when is it 
least expensive to do so.
Both the daylight driving and the swappable packs will push charging 
off-peak, where power is plentiful and cheap. The grid only has issues 
during periods of peak demand, typically in the late afternoon. For most of 
the 24 hours in a day, the grid operators have surplus capacity. During the 
late evening and before dawn, they have _heaps_ of surplus capacity. They 
would be overjoyed to sell this wasted excess grid capacity if they could 
do so.
The trucking industry is very price sensitive. If they can buy fuel for a 
few cents less, then they will alter their schedule to do so. The grid 
operators simply have to offer some sort of off-peak charging incentive (or 
an on-peak charging surcharge) and the "problem" is easily solved.
Here in Auckland, they often operate the residential (electric) water 
heaters on a system that is controlled by the power utility. The utility 
will switch off the water heater element during peak times to move the 
consumption to help grid capacity. All done with "ripple signals" from the 
utility over the power wires to your water heater circuit. You can 
participate or choose not to by simply pressing a button on your electrical 
panel. You will pay full price for the electricity to heat you wate

Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Hi Bill,

I'm going to push back, not specifically to argue, but to get clearer on 
the details. I hope you can fill in where I'm vague or counter where I'm 
wrong.


If an EV semi can charge overnight, that helps. Let's sketch some calcs.

Let's say overnight is 10 hours and the battery is 1MWh. If just one 
truck charges, that's a benign 100kW supply. According to

https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/infrastructure/truck_parking/jasons_law/truckparkingsurvey/ch2.htm#:~:text=Approximately%2039%20percent%20of%20facilities,provide%2025%20to%2099%20spaces.=The%20presence%20of%20shower%20facilities,meals%2C%20entertainment%2C%20etc.)
39% have 1-24 overnight spaces and 40% have 25 to 99. Let's use 50 
trucks in this sketch. So the typical truck stop needs to accommodate 50 
* 100kW = 5MW. That's a pretty good load.


Sure, local PV + a huge battery on site would help, but I think the grid 
has to be part of the solution. I presume 5MW in most locations is still 
not a big problem, though.


But, now, let's look a short term rapid charging. While truck drivers on 
long trips do need to stop overnight (or over day) to sleep, if they 
drive 500 miles in a day, they'll almost certainly need to charge at 
least once en route. Let's say for one hour at 500kWh. At any given 
moment, there could be (guessing) 20 trucks stopped for an hour. That 
would be a 10MW power draw. Now, I'll guess, the grid could be pushed 
beyond capacity along some highways. Don't forget, the grid is also 
going to have to handle new loads from EV cars, etc.


A large local battery and solar panels would help by evening out the 
peaks and, perhaps, storing some energy captured during the day for use 
at night. And, over time, perhaps it could be built out enough to be 
quite significant. But the grid still needs to be there because, you 
know, there are cloudy days, etc.


And, yes, truck drivers do drive at night. My anecdotal experience along 
the I5 corridor on the US west coast is that most trucks are on the 
freeway at night. There's too much traffic during the day. That means, 
"overnight" charging can happen during the day.


In summary, I don't know enough about grid capacity to know how many 
highways could handle these example loads or not. Your point is well 
taken that, if truckers can charge during periods when there's less load 
on the grid, that will help significantly. Perhaps most can. I can 
imagine new apps that give real time variable pricing and pricing 
projections, e.g. charging available in 10 miles at $0.20/kWh now, or in 
100 miles, two hours awat at $0.12/kWh, giving the driver some choices 
to mull over.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Dube via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Bill Dube" 
Sent: 24-Nov-22 03:34:33
Subject: Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast


Hi Peri,


Also, trucks tend to be driven during daylight hours (not always, but 
mainly.) Trucks only charge when they are not moving, keep in mind.
   The few EV semi-trucks that I have actually seen here in Auckland seem to 
have (at this time) battery packs that are designed to be swapped out quickly 
for charging. They will tend to charge these spare packs when is it least 
expensive to do so.

   Both  the daylight driving and the swappable packs will push charging 
off-peak, where power is plentiful and cheap. The grid only has issues during 
periods of peak demand, typically in the late afternoon. For most of the 24 
hours in a day, the grid operators have surplus capacity. During the late 
evening and before dawn, they have _heaps_ of surplus capacity. They would be 
overjoyed to sell this wasted excess grid capacity if they could do so.

The trucking industry is very price sensitive. If they can buy fuel for a few cents 
less, then they will alter their schedule to do so. The grid operators simply have to 
offer some sort of off-peak charging incentive (or an on-peak charging surcharge) and the 
"problem" is easily solved.

Here in Auckland, they often operate the residential (electric) water heaters on a 
system that is controlled by the power utility. The utility will switch off the water 
heater element during peak times to move the consumption to help grid capacity. All done 
with "ripple signals" from the utility over the power wires to your water 
heater circuit. You can participate or choose not to by simply pressing a button on your 
electrical panel. You will pay full price for the electricity to heat you water if you 
do, however. _Everyone_ in New Zealand has a sophisticated electronic meter that logs 
what you are drawing and what time you did it, then sends this continuously to the power 
utility over the power wires.

There is no EV grid crisis looming. I have no idea who is propagating this 
nonsense.

Bill D.


On 11/24/2022 8:17 PM, Peri Hartman via EV w

Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[paul dove via EV]

In Europe they even have electric ships. I haven’t heard of any grid issues 
there. Fully Charged Presents Electric Ferry With 4.1 MWh Battery:

 ttps://insideevs.com/news/349545/fully-charged-electric-ferry/



Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, November 24, 2022, 1:17 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:

Bill, I don't have any axe to grind here, but the issue was about 
providing power to charge long haul trucks. While I think your argument 
works well for small trucks and domestic cars, I'd like to see what you 
have to say about long haul trucks. I highly respect your points of 
view.

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Dube via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Bill Dube" 
Sent: 23-Nov-22 14:55:48
Subject: Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

>No need upgrade the grid. None. Just need a few incentives and a little 
>intelligence.
>
>There is a lot of misinformation about this, here on the EVDL even.
>
> >>>>>> Grid capacity problem ? >>>>>>>>>>>
>
>    There is LOTS of power available on the grid, just not at the peak times 
>of the day.  No problem what-so-ever. EVs are _driven_ during the day, and are 
>charged when they are parked, during the night. Provide an economic incentive 
>to folks to change off peak and the grid capacity "problem" vanishes.
>
> >>>>>>>> Solar power is during the day, while you are at work. How do you 
> >>>>>>>> charge from solar? <<<<
>
>    It is a power grid. You put power in at one location, and you can take it 
>out at another. This is what it does. Use it.
>
>    If your home solar panels are providing surplus power to the grid, you can 
>draw it out from a location other than your home to charge your EV. It is 
>simply a matter of giving the grid operator incentive to take a reasonable fee 
>for doing this. Legislation, financial incentive, public sentiment, etc. No 
>brainer.
>
> >>>>>>> EV power is no different than washers, driers, stoves, electric heat, 
> >>>>>>> etc. <<<<<<
>
>    The grid has gone through decades of constant evolution. It has very 
>nicely adapted and upgraded with the advent of air conditioning, electric 
>heat, and power hungry home appliances.
>
>    As EVs slowly ramp up in popularity, the grid operators will adapt. EVs 
>and EV chargers can easily be quickly switched off and back on to "park shave" 
>during periods of peak load. The grid operators simply have to decide on which 
>of the many methods they want to use to talk to your EV or your charger, and 
>offer you an incentive to participate.
>
>Bill D.
>
>
>
>___
>Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
>No other addresses in TO and CC fields
>HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>

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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Peri, Bill and All,   I really don't see much problem as solar, CHP, CSP, 
small wind will grow so fast on homes, buildings, businesses as so cheap at 
$.05/kwh, it'll easily match EV demand.I have my first solar array, generator 
as a carport, patio, shed, set to sell for under $1.50/wt before subsidies, is 
under $.05/kwh.  Others will follow as factory made systems take over and allow 
renters to have solar and CHP, small wind.And demand in many places drop as 
efficient products like heat pumps replace resistance heating.EVs themselves 
will drop in weight, be more aero to cut costs and cut energy.  A lot of people 
are leaving cars for e mobility as roads are being made safer for them.Utility 
solar, wind, CSP, pumped hydro, geo, river/tidal, bio/waste/synfuels will keep 
growing.EVs with V2G will save the 100% RE grid as so dam many of them in 10 
yrs as most of this will take to unfold, will solve the storage, on demand 
power problem.For instance just US Tesla EV packs are over 200GWh, more than 
all the grid battery storage in the world. With most EVs with V2G and most 
vehicles EVs, there will not be a storage, on demand generation problem. I see 
in 10 yrs the grid will be dominated by homes, buildings, businesses generating 
RE and storing it in batteries, heat/cold storage along with EVs with V2G, the 
grid storage, on demand generation because it costs a lot less, nicely 
profitable.And as these take their rightful place, will squeeze out, stranding  
FFs even faster as the energy, power moves back to the people.In different ways 
Biden/dems IRA, Putin and OPEC+ have speeded this up 2-3 yrs.Happy Thanksgiving 
everyone,Jerry Dycus
On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 11:17:44 PM PST, Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Bill, I don't have any axe to grind here, but the issue was about 
providing power to charge long haul trucks. While I think your argument 
works well for small trucks and domestic cars, I'd like to see what you 
have to say about long haul trucks. I highly respect your points of 
view.

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Dube via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Bill Dube" 
Sent: 23-Nov-22 14:55:48
Subject: Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

>No need upgrade the grid. None. Just need a few incentives and a little 
>intelligence.
>
>There is a lot of misinformation about this, here on the EVDL even.
>
> >>>>>> Grid capacity problem ? >>>>>>>>>>>
>
>    There is LOTS of power available on the grid, just not at the peak times 
>of the day.  No problem what-so-ever. EVs are _driven_ during the day, and are 
>charged when they are parked, during the night. Provide an economic incentive 
>to folks to change off peak and the grid capacity "problem" vanishes.
>
> >>>>>>>> Solar power is during the day, while you are at work. How do you 
> >>>>>>>> charge from solar? <<<<
>
>    It is a power grid. You put power in at one location, and you can take it 
>out at another. This is what it does. Use it.
>
>    If your home solar panels are providing surplus power to the grid, you can 
>draw it out from a location other than your home to charge your EV. It is 
>simply a matter of giving the grid operator incentive to take a reasonable fee 
>for doing this. Legislation, financial incentive, public sentiment, etc. No 
>brainer.
>
> >>>>>>> EV power is no different than washers, driers, stoves, electric heat, 
> >>>>>>> etc. <<<<<<
>
>    The grid has gone through decades of constant evolution. It has very 
>nicely adapted and upgraded with the advent of air conditioning, electric 
>heat, and power hungry home appliances.
>
>    As EVs slowly ramp up in popularity, the grid operators will adapt. EVs 
>and EV chargers can easily be quickly switched off and back on to "park shave" 
>during periods of peak load. The grid operators simply have to decide on which 
>of the many methods they want to use to talk to your EV or your charger, and 
>offer you an incentive to participate.
>
>Bill D.
>
>
>
>___
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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[Bill Dube via EV]

Hi Peri,


    Also, trucks tend to be driven during daylight hours (not always, 
but mainly.) Trucks only charge when they are not moving, keep in mind.
   The few EV semi-trucks that I have actually seen here in Auckland 
seem to have (at this time) battery packs that are designed to be 
swapped out quickly for charging.     They will tend to charge these 
spare packs when is it least expensive to do so.


   Both  the daylight driving and the swappable packs will push 
charging off-peak, where power is plentiful and cheap. The grid only has 
issues during periods of peak demand, typically in the late afternoon. 
For most of the 24 hours in a day, the grid operators have surplus 
capacity. During the late evening and before dawn, they have _heaps_ of 
surplus capacity. They would be overjoyed to sell this wasted excess 
grid capacity if they could do so.


    The trucking industry is very price sensitive. If they can buy fuel 
for a few cents less, then they will alter their schedule to do so. The 
grid operators simply have to offer some sort of off-peak charging 
incentive (or an on-peak charging surcharge) and the "problem" is easily 
solved.


    Here in Auckland, they often operate the residential (electric) 
water heaters on a system that is controlled by the power utility. The 
utility will switch off the water heater element during peak times to 
move the consumption to help grid capacity. All done with "ripple 
signals" from the utility over the power wires to your water heater 
circuit. You can participate or choose not to by simply pressing a 
button on your electrical panel. You will pay full price for the 
electricity to heat you water if you do, however. _Everyone_ in New 
Zealand has a sophisticated electronic meter that logs what you are 
drawing and what time you did it, then sends this continuously to the 
power utility over the power wires.


    There is no EV grid crisis looming. I have no idea who is 
propagating this nonsense.


    Bill D.


On 11/24/2022 8:17 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
Bill, I don't have any axe to grind here, but the issue was about 
providing power to charge long haul trucks. While I think your 
argument works well for small trucks and domestic cars, I'd like to 
see what you have to say about long haul trucks. I highly respect your 
points of view.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Dube via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Bill Dube" 
Sent: 23-Nov-22 14:55:48
Subject: Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

No need upgrade the grid. None. Just need a few incentives and a 
little intelligence.


There is a lot of misinformation about this, here on the EVDL even.

>>>>>> Grid capacity problem ? >>>>>>>>>>>

    There is LOTS of power available on the grid, just not at the 
peak times of the day.  No problem what-so-ever. EVs are _driven_ 
during the day, and are charged when they are parked, during the 
night. Provide an economic incentive to folks to change off peak and 
the grid capacity "problem" vanishes.


>>>>>>>> Solar power is during the day, while you are at work. How do 
you charge from solar? <<<<


    It is a power grid. You put power in at one location, and you can 
take it out at another. This is what it does. Use it.


    If your home solar panels are providing surplus power to the 
grid, you can draw it out from a location other than your home to 
charge your EV. It is simply a matter of giving the grid operator 
incentive to take a reasonable fee for doing this. Legislation, 
financial incentive, public sentiment, etc. No brainer.


>>>>>>> EV power is no different than washers, driers, stoves, 
electric heat, etc. <<<<<<


    The grid has gone through decades of constant evolution. It has 
very nicely adapted and upgraded with the advent of air conditioning, 
electric heat, and power hungry home appliances.


    As EVs slowly ramp up in popularity, the grid operators will 
adapt. EVs and EV chargers can easily be quickly switched off and 
back on to "park shave" during periods of peak load. The grid 
operators simply have to decide on which of the many methods they 
want to use to talk to your EV or your charger, and offer you an 
incentive to participate.


Bill D.



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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Bill, I don't have any axe to grind here, but the issue was about 
providing power to charge long haul trucks. While I think your argument 
works well for small trucks and domestic cars, I'd like to see what you 
have to say about long haul trucks. I highly respect your points of 
view.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Dube via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Bill Dube" 
Sent: 23-Nov-22 14:55:48
Subject: Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast


No need upgrade the grid. None. Just need a few incentives and a little 
intelligence.

There is a lot of misinformation about this, here on the EVDL even.

>>>>>> Grid capacity problem ? >>>>>>>>>>>

There is LOTS of power available on the grid, just not at the peak times of the day.  
No problem what-so-ever. EVs are _driven_ during the day, and are charged when they are 
parked, during the night. Provide an economic incentive to folks to change off peak and 
the grid capacity "problem" vanishes.

>>>>>>>> Solar power is during the day, while you are at work. How do you charge from 
solar? <<<<

It is a power grid. You put power in at one location, and you can take it 
out at another. This is what it does. Use it.

If your home solar panels are providing surplus power to the grid, you can 
draw it out from a location other than your home to charge your EV. It is 
simply a matter of giving the grid operator incentive to take a reasonable fee 
for doing this. Legislation, financial incentive, public sentiment, etc. No 
brainer.

>>>>>>> EV power is no different than washers, driers, stoves, electric heat, etc. 
<<<<<<

The grid has gone through decades of constant evolution. It has very nicely 
adapted and upgraded with the advent of air conditioning, electric heat, and 
power hungry home appliances.

As EVs slowly ramp up in popularity, the grid operators will adapt. EVs and EV 
chargers can easily be quickly switched off and back on to "park shave" during 
periods of peak load. The grid operators simply have to decide on which of the many 
methods they want to use to talk to your EV or your charger, and offer you an incentive 
to participate.

Bill D.



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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[evparts via EV]

Hi All,I'm sure that there are folks on here that may remember my post almost a 
decade ago about this same issue. In the 1930's people feared that the grid 
would not support the televisions and refrigerators that the wealthy were 
plugging in,  then we had the washing machines, air conditioners, hot tubs, 
home computers and so on. Never considering how fast industrial demand was 
growing at the same time. The utilities position is to sell power. They are 
constantly swapping out gear for greater efficiency. As Bill points out, if we 
start to see evidence of power shortages, it becomes a scheduling issue. 
Incentives are very effective for encouraging the masses to help solve such 
issues.The average EV uses about the same amount of power to charge as it takes 
to run a dryer 2 cycles or less. Do many families think twice about running the 
dryer a 2nd time when the clothes aren't completely dry?How many residences 
have a dryer and a hot tub that are used on a daily basis? Does doing that 
cause great concern in our neighborhoods?I recommend using the space between 
our ears before buying into the rhetoric being spread by opponents of the EV 
movement. It is human nature to question or even fear change, but most EVeryone 
realizes that we need to make changes to help solve the looming crises that we 
are facing as a society. My 2 Watts worth,Tom True Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE 
Device
 Original message From: Bill Dube via EV  
Date: 11/23/22  2:56 PM  (GMT-08:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Cc: Bill Dube 
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast 
No need upgrade the grid. None. Just need a few incentives and a little 
intelligence.There is a lot of misinformation about this, here on the EVDL 
even. >>>>>> Grid capacity problem ? >>>>>>>>>>>     There is LOTS of power 
available on the grid, just not at the peak times of the day.  No problem 
what-so-ever. EVs are _driven_ during the day, and are charged when they are 
parked, during the night. Provide an economic incentive to folks to change off 
peak and the grid capacity "problem" vanishes. >>>>>>>> Solar power is during 
the day, while you are at work. How do you charge from solar? <<<<     It is a 
power grid. You put power in at one location, and you can take it out at 
another. This is what it does. Use it.     If your home solar panels are 
providing surplus power to the grid, you can draw it out from a location other 
than your home to charge your EV. It is simply a matter of giving the grid 
operator incentive to take a reasonable fee for doing this. Legislation, 
financial incentive, public sentiment, etc. No brainer. >>>>>>> EV power is no 
different than washers, driers, stoves, electric heat, etc. <<<<<<     The grid 
has gone through decades of constant evolution. It has very nicely adapted and 
upgraded with the advent of air conditioning, electric heat, and power hungry 
home appliances.     As EVs slowly ramp up in popularity, the grid operators 
will adapt. EVs and EV chargers can easily be quickly switched off and back on 
to "park shave" during periods of peak load. The grid operators simply have to 
decide on which of the many methods they want to use to talk to your EV or your 
charger, and offer you an incentive to participate.Bill 
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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[Bill Dube via EV]

No need upgrade the grid. None. Just need a few incentives and a little 
intelligence.


There is a lot of misinformation about this, here on the EVDL even.

>> Grid capacity problem ? >>>

    There is LOTS of power available on the grid, just not at the peak 
times of the day.  No problem what-so-ever. EVs are _driven_ during the 
day, and are charged when they are parked, during the night. Provide an 
economic incentive to folks to change off peak and the grid capacity 
"problem" vanishes.


 Solar power is during the day, while you are at work. How do 
you charge from solar? 


    It is a power grid. You put power in at one location, and you can 
take it out at another. This is what it does. Use it.


    If your home solar panels are providing surplus power to the grid, 
you can draw it out from a location other than your home to charge your 
EV. It is simply a matter of giving the grid operator incentive to take 
a reasonable fee for doing this. Legislation, financial incentive, 
public sentiment, etc. No brainer.


>>> EV power is no different than washers, driers, stoves, electric 
heat, etc. <<


    The grid has gone through decades of constant evolution. It has 
very nicely adapted and upgraded with the advent of air conditioning, 
electric heat, and power hungry home appliances.


    As EVs slowly ramp up in popularity, the grid operators will adapt. 
EVs and EV chargers can easily be quickly switched off and back on to 
"park shave" during periods of peak load. The grid operators simply have 
to decide on which of the many methods they want to use to talk to your 
EV or your charger, and offer you an incentive to participate.


Bill D.



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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[paul dove via EV]

Yes, unfortunately, no one is guiding development with the consumer in mind. 
I’ve been up north and there are parking lots with outlets at every parking 
spot I suppose for block heaters. It would fairly easy and cheap to do this 
more. Then you could plug in at work. I don’t know about in public places since 
it would leave you EVSE out and available to be stolen. 


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, November 22, 2022, 4:08 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
 wrote:

IMHO...
EV's are not long distance vehiclesthey are commuter vehicles.
PV provides lots of peak power during the day, zero at night

It would be a good idea to promote EV charging with PV during the day.
Where are commuter vehicles during the day?   Probably at work.
Seems that it would be common sense to promote slow EV charging at 
workduring the day.   Don't even need to have thePV at work, as there is 
probably PV somewhere close anyway.




 

    On Monday, November 21, 2022, 7:51:08 AM PST, John Lussmyer via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Which problem can be mitigated by having more distributed power. Like a 
Tesla Megapack at major truck stops.

On 11/21/2022 7:09 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> Electric truck stops will need as much power as a small town
> https://www.seattletimes.com/business/electric-truck-stops-will-need-as-much-power-as-a-small-town/
>  
>
>
> ...
> If power upgrades don’t start soon, the transition to electric 
> vehicles — let alone electric trucks — will quickly be constrained by 
> a grid unprepared for the demand, warned Bart Franey, vice president 
> of clean energy development at National Grid.
>
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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[John Lussmyer via EV]

Wow, you must commute a LONG ways every day!  When an EV has a 300+ mile 
range, and can recharge in < 30 minutes, that seems perfectly adequate 
for long trips.
ALSO needing BIG charge power at the truck stops is for the Electric 
Semi trucks.


On 11/22/2022 2:07 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote:

IMHO...
EV's are not long distance vehiclesthey are commuter vehicles.


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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

IMHO...
EV's are not long distance vehiclesthey are commuter vehicles.
PV provides lots of peak power during the day, zero at night

It would be a good idea to promote EV charging with PV during the day.
Where are commuter vehicles during the day?   Probably at work.
Seems that it would be common sense to promote slow EV charging at 
workduring the day.   Don't even need to have thePV at work, as there is 
probably PV somewhere close anyway.




 

On Monday, November 21, 2022, 7:51:08 AM PST, John Lussmyer via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Which problem can be mitigated by having more distributed power. Like a 
Tesla Megapack at major truck stops.

On 11/21/2022 7:09 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> Electric truck stops will need as much power as a small town
> https://www.seattletimes.com/business/electric-truck-stops-will-need-as-much-power-as-a-small-town/
>  
>
>
> ...
> If power upgrades don’t start soon, the transition to electric 
> vehicles — let alone electric trucks — will quickly be constrained by 
> a grid unprepared for the demand, warned Bart Franey, vice president 
> of clean energy development at National Grid.
>
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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Jim, interesting short-sightedness.
Rate payers today enjoy the investments done with money from rate
payers of previous years, no?
Cor.

On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 5:05 PM jim--- via EV  wrote:
>
> David said:
> > Good luck with that.  Most of our "investor owned" utilities don't have a
> > good track record of even keeping up with current maintenance, much less
> > actually planning for the future.
>
> For the most part, at least here in California, the investor owned utilities 
> largely are not allowed to plan (or more accurately to spend) for the future. 
>  In really short summary, the concept is that rate payers today should not 
> have to pay for future projects.  That is an insanely simple explanation of a 
> very complex process, but it's a fairly accurate summary.
>
> As I understand it, most other states are at least similar.
>
>
> 73
> -
> Jim Walls - K6CCC
> j...@k6ccc.org
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[jim--- via EV]

David said:
> Good luck with that.  Most of our "investor owned" utilities don't have a 
> good track record of even keeping up with current maintenance, much less 
> actually planning for the future.

For the most part, at least here in California, the investor owned utilities 
largely are not allowed to plan (or more accurately to spend) for the future.  
In really short summary, the concept is that rate payers today should not have 
to pay for future projects.  That is an insanely simple explanation of a very 
complex process, but it's a fairly accurate summary.

As I understand it, most other states are at least similar.


73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org


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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[EV List Lackey via EV]

Good luck with that.  Most of our "investor owned" utilities don't have a 
good track record of even keeping up with current maintenance, much less 
actually planning for the future.  Unless they can see a return from it this 
quarter, they won't pay for it.  If you want to see where that kind of short-
sightedness leads, have a look at Puerto Rico's grid.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 In every country, they make fun of city. In US you make fun of 
 Cleveland. In Russia, we make fun of Cleveland.  

--Yakov Smirnoff
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[John Lussmyer via EV]

Which problem can be mitigated by having more distributed power. Like a 
Tesla Megapack at major truck stops.


On 11/21/2022 7:09 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

Electric truck stops will need as much power as a small town
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/electric-truck-stops-will-need-as-much-power-as-a-small-town/ 



...
If power upgrades don’t start soon, the transition to electric 
vehicles — let alone electric trucks — will quickly be constrained by 
a grid unprepared for the demand, warned Bart Franey, vice president 
of clean energy development at National Grid.



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[EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Electric truck stops will need as much power as a small town
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/electric-truck-stops-will-need-as-much-power-as-a-small-town/

...
If power upgrades don’t start soon, the transition to electric vehicles 
— let alone electric trucks — will quickly be constrained by a grid 
unprepared for the demand, warned Bart Franey, vice president of clean 
energy development at National Grid.


“We need to start making these investments now,” Franey said in an 
interview. “We can’t just wait for it to happen, because the market is 
going to outpace the infrastructure.”

...
The total amount of new electricity that EVs will consume isn’t the 
problem. Even if the world stopped making new gasoline-powered cars and 
trucks altogether by the early 2030s — an optimistic scenario — it would 
add no more than 15% to the world’s electricity consumption by 2040, 
according to an analysis by BloombergNEF. In the age of cheap wind and 
solar power, that’s not a lot.

...
“Utilities are waiting for a customer application to come in requesting 
new service before they start their work, and that process is just too 
long,” Aneja said. “You really have to anticipate that demand and then 
get started ahead of time. That requires a paradigm shift from a policy 
and a regulatory perspective.”

...
With the amount of change the grid will be experiencing in the next few 
decades, the old rules for when to build interconnection upgrades — and 
who pays for them — no longer make sense, said Brian Wilkie, director of 
transport electrification at National Grid. Building connected 
electricity highways will be a competitive advantage for states that 
move the fastest, and every utility should be conducting similar studies 
to evaluate future demand, he said.

...

--

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

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