Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EV packs optimized 4longevity, Phone Batteries 4co$t

[paul dove via EV]

That’s not how FedEx tells the story. Apparently they experiment with all sorts 
of new technologies. 

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1094920_fedex-tests-wrightspeed-electric-trucks-with-diesel-turbine-range-extender

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 7, 2018, at 10:02 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV  wrote:
> 
> I didn't read the article, and don't want to defend an anti-EV hack, but on 
> the question of volume, I can assure you that it can be an issue in the real 
> world. As I always say, it's a question of the application and duty cycle.
> 
> One example I can think of is the experience of FedEx delivery truck. They 
> have a number of battery electric delivery vehicles, found that range just 
> couldn't cut it in at least some places. The obvious solution is add more 
> batteries, right? No, more batteries would have taken up valuable cargo 
> space. They could/wouldn't do it. So now they are demoing fuel cells as range 
> extenders to the battery electrics. It's going very well, from what I hear. I 
> believe that UPS is doing the same.
> 
> ---
> - Mark
> 
>> On 2018-04-08 03:37, Lee Hart via EV wrote:
>> EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>>> It's puzzling that the author of this article, Isidor Buchman, allegedly
>>> sets out to write about the differences between mobile phone batteries and
>>> EV batteries, but spends over 40% of his piece dismissing and denigrating
>>> EVs.
>>> Worse, he rehashes the same old misinformation and ignorance that's been
>>> aimed at EVs for 5 decades.
>>> Look at this junk.  This is the language of a PR hack, not a scientist.
>>> Some of it's outright wrong; other parts are just meaningless prattle.
>> That's how it looked to me as well. Besides the gaffes you pointed
>> out, his use of charts for H2 are out of place. Also, I've never seen
>> anyone compare batteries by volume as a figure of merit. Volume is
>> almost never a problem; it's always weight that counts (KW per KG, and
>> KWH/KG).
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EV packs optimized 4longevity, Phone Batteries 4co$t

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

I didn't read the article, and don't want to defend an anti-EV hack, but 
on the question of volume, I can assure you that it can be an issue in 
the real world. As I always say, it's a question of the application and 
duty cycle.


One example I can think of is the experience of FedEx delivery truck. 
They have a number of battery electric delivery vehicles, found that 
range just couldn't cut it in at least some places. The obvious solution 
is add more batteries, right? No, more batteries would have taken up 
valuable cargo space. They could/wouldn't do it. So now they are demoing 
fuel cells as range extenders to the battery electrics. It's going very 
well, from what I hear. I believe that UPS is doing the same.


---
- Mark

On 2018-04-08 03:37, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
It's puzzling that the author of this article, Isidor Buchman, 
allegedly
sets out to write about the differences between mobile phone batteries 
and
EV batteries, but spends over 40% of his piece dismissing and 
denigrating

EVs.

Worse, he rehashes the same old misinformation and ignorance that's 
been

aimed at EVs for 5 decades.

Look at this junk.  This is the language of a PR hack, not a 
scientist.

Some of it's outright wrong; other parts are just meaningless prattle.


That's how it looked to me as well. Besides the gaffes you pointed
out, his use of charts for H2 are out of place. Also, I've never seen
anyone compare batteries by volume as a figure of merit. Volume is
almost never a problem; it's always weight that counts (KW per KG, and
KWH/KG).

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EV packs optimized 4longevity, Phone Batteries 4co$t

[Lee Hart via EV]

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

It's puzzling that the author of this article, Isidor Buchman, allegedly
sets out to write about the differences between mobile phone batteries and
EV batteries, but spends over 40% of his piece dismissing and denigrating
EVs.

Worse, he rehashes the same old misinformation and ignorance that's been
aimed at EVs for 5 decades.

Look at this junk.  This is the language of a PR hack, not a scientist.
Some of it's outright wrong; other parts are just meaningless prattle.


That's how it looked to me as well. Besides the gaffes you pointed out, his use 
of charts for H2 are out of place. Also, I've never seen anyone compare 
batteries by volume as a figure of merit. Volume is almost never a problem; it's 
always weight that counts (KW per KG, and KWH/KG).

--
I look for what needs to be done. After all, that's how the universe
designs itself. -- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EV packs optimized 4longevity, Phone Batteries 4co$t

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

As for electric airplane flight endurance... we have already seen small 
conventional type aircraft with 1 hour endurance, and experimental type 
aircraft (100% solar+battery) with multiple day endurance with transpacific and 
transatlantic flights.



On April 5, 2018 5:17:26 PM CDT, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:
>It's puzzling that the author of this article, Isidor Buchman,
>allegedly 
>sets out to write about the differences between mobile phone batteries
>and 
>EV batteries, but spends over 40% of his piece dismissing and
>denigrating 
>EVs.  
>
>Worse, he rehashes the same old misinformation and ignorance that's
>been 
>aimed at EVs for 5 decades.   
>
>Look at this junk.  This is the language of a PR hack, not a scientist.
> 
>Some of it's outright wrong; other parts are just meaningless prattle. 
>(He 
>doesn't write, "the vehicle becomes less efficient," but rather "the
>vehicle 
>becomes inefficient."  Eh?  Furthermore, no evidence for any
>declaration is 
>presented.)
>
>> This [increased range] requires larger batteries that grow
>> exponentially with the distance driven. 
>
>> ... and the vehicle becomes inefficient with increasing weight. 
>
>> There is a threshold as to battery size and weight in a vehicle;
>going
>> beyond a critical point has a negative return. The vehicle becomes
>> environmentally unsustainable. 
>
>> Batteries have low calorific value compared to fossil fuel, and it
>> makes little sense to power a freight train, ocean-going ship or
>large
>> airplane with batteries. 
>
>> A study reveals that replacing kerosene with batteries could keep an
>> aircraft airborne for less than 10 minutes. 
>
>> Cost is another issue and batteries take long to charge. 
>
>> A fill-up that is quickly and conveniently as topping a tank with
>> liquid or gaseous fuel is impossible with an electrochemical device. 
>
>> Charging a fleet of EVs could dim a city. 
>
>His tired, old, misinformed anti-EV screed just keeps on going. It kind
>of 
>makes you wonder where this "battery expert" gets his funding, doesn't
>it?
>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EVDL Administrator
>
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>email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EV packs optimized 4longevity, Phone Batteries 4co$t

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Yeah, I too, found it to be pretty disrespecting of facts.

- no mention of efficiency of gas engines (20%) compared to EVs (85% or 
so).
- no mention of the extraction costs for fossil fuels, environmental or 
fiscal.
- "exponential" inefficiency as battery weight increases; true, but 
wildly exaggerated
- manufacturers start with a limit to 80% usage and relax the limit as 
the battery gets older. Really?


There were more, which you listed, and probably others I don't remember. 
I wonder how many people read this and lap it up without further 
thought.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "EVDL Administrator" 
Sent: 05-Apr-18 3:17:26 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EV packs optimized 4longevity, Phone Batteries 
4co$t


It's puzzling that the author of this article, Isidor Buchman, 
allegedly
sets out to write about the differences between mobile phone batteries 
and
EV batteries, but spends over 40% of his piece dismissing and 
denigrating

EVs.

Worse, he rehashes the same old misinformation and ignorance that's 
been

aimed at EVs for 5 decades.

Look at this junk.  This is the language of a PR hack, not a scientist.
Some of it's outright wrong; other parts are just meaningless prattle.  
(He
doesn't write, "the vehicle becomes less efficient," but rather "the 
vehicle
becomes inefficient."  Eh?  Furthermore, no evidence for any 
declaration is

presented.)


This [increased range] requires larger batteries that grow
exponentially with the distance driven.



... and the vehicle becomes inefficient with increasing weight.



There is a threshold as to battery size and weight in a vehicle; going
beyond a critical point has a negative return. The vehicle becomes
environmentally unsustainable.



Batteries have low calorific value compared to fossil fuel, and it
makes little sense to power a freight train, ocean-going ship or large
airplane with batteries.



A study reveals that replacing kerosene with batteries could keep an
aircraft airborne for less than 10 minutes.



Cost is another issue and batteries take long to charge.



A fill-up that is quickly and conveniently as topping a tank with
liquid or gaseous fuel is impossible with an electrochemical device.



Charging a fleet of EVs could dim a city.


His tired, old, misinformed anti-EV screed just keeps on going. It kind 
of
makes you wonder where this "battery expert" gets his funding, doesn't 
it?


David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
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email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EV packs optimized 4longevity, Phone Batteries 4co$t

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

It's puzzling that the author of this article, Isidor Buchman, allegedly 
sets out to write about the differences between mobile phone batteries and 
EV batteries, but spends over 40% of his piece dismissing and denigrating 
EVs.  

Worse, he rehashes the same old misinformation and ignorance that's been 
aimed at EVs for 5 decades.   

Look at this junk.  This is the language of a PR hack, not a scientist.  
Some of it's outright wrong; other parts are just meaningless prattle.  (He 
doesn't write, "the vehicle becomes less efficient," but rather "the vehicle 
becomes inefficient."  Eh?  Furthermore, no evidence for any declaration is 
presented.)

> This [increased range] requires larger batteries that grow
> exponentially with the distance driven. 

> ... and the vehicle becomes inefficient with increasing weight. 

> There is a threshold as to battery size and weight in a vehicle; going
> beyond a critical point has a negative return. The vehicle becomes
> environmentally unsustainable. 

> Batteries have low calorific value compared to fossil fuel, and it
> makes little sense to power a freight train, ocean-going ship or large
> airplane with batteries. 

> A study reveals that replacing kerosene with batteries could keep an
> aircraft airborne for less than 10 minutes. 

> Cost is another issue and batteries take long to charge. 

> A fill-up that is quickly and conveniently as topping a tank with
> liquid or gaseous fuel is impossible with an electrochemical device. 

> Charging a fleet of EVs could dim a city. 

His tired, old, misinformed anti-EV screed just keeps on going. It kind of 
makes you wonder where this "battery expert" gets his funding, doesn't it?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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