Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[dovepa via EV]

Good point. They definitely are not trying to sell them.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: EVDL Administrator via EV  Date: 10/24/2015  
10:17 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck
Before Tesla 
On 24 Oct 2015 at 6:44, dovepa via EV wrote:

> No one creates a market IMO.

Apologies for going a bit off topic here, but it's to make a point.

I'm not an economist so maybe I have my terminology wrong.  I don't know 
that it was actually "creating a market," but consider what the big 
automakers did in promoting trucks and SUVs.  

Until the 1980s, pickup trucks were for craftsmen and farmers.  The poor 
adolescent rural kid who had to drive his date to the dance in his dad's 
pickup truck was a standing joke.  Meanwhile, SUVs (Jeep, IH Scout, Land 
Rover, Nissan Patrol, Toyota Land Cruiser) were noisy and rode rough; they 
were mostly for sportsmen.  

Detroit wasn't happy.  They made big profits on big, gas hungry cars, but 
those cars were subject to the US "gas guzzler" tax, which hurt sales.  
They'd even had to downsize the Cadillac and Lincoln.

Then they hit on the idea of pushing big, gas-hungry TRUCKS, which weren't 
subject to the gas guzzler tax because they were supposedly work vehicles.

IIRC Dodge was one of the first to "civilize" a pickup truck with a fancier 
interior, softer springs, and noise proofing.  (They also made a pickup with 
a vinyl roof at one time!)  There was a long line of ads showing how trucks 
and SUVs could fit into a suburban lifestyle.  And what do you know - truck 
sales took off.  Today the top selling vehicles are often trucks.  That's 
the power of advertising.

So IF the automakers truly wanted to create demand for EVs (which as I say 
may not be the same thing as "creating a market"), either passenger car or 
truck, they know how to do it.  But right now there's no incentive for them 
to do so.  

It's interesting to contemplate though.  What if building their compliance 
EVs drove down EV component prices to the point where they were making MORE 
profit on EVs than on ICEVs?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[dovepa via EV]

No one creates a market IMO. Elon filled a market that was already there. He 
even said so he said he say rich people driving a prius and said someone 
should make a car for them. They rest make them because of government mandate. 
Big difference. 
If the model 3 comes out it will sell. Problem so far is that they cost more to 
produce because of the batteries. All new technology starts that way


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Ed Blackmond via EV  Date: 10/23/2015  2:21 PM 
 (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  Subject: 
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck
Before Tesla 

> On Oct 23, 2015, at 11:07 AM, Ben Goren via EV  wrote:
> 
> If the engineering team of a major auto manufacturer couldn't make a 50 kW 
> system suitable for an hybrid with a gross weight less than that of the 
> typical American passenger...that team should be fired.
> 
Unless they were not doing exactly what they were hired not to do.

The major auto manufacturers have all proven that they can make electric 
vehicles. They know the limitations of what they have produced, how to correct 
them, and how to manufacture EVs cost effectively. Now they are waiting for 
somebody to come along and spend the money to create a market. Once that 
happens, they will all make as many as people will buy.

Even Nissan knows how much they make selling EVs compared to ICEVs. EV revenue 
is insignificant in comparison. No manufacturer is going to spend money 
creating a market just to watch other manufacturers benefit from their 
investment.

Tesla created a market that didn't exist and isn't big enough for any major 
manufacturer to notice or care if they do notice. If Tesla  creates a market 
big enough to attract the attention of the major manufacturers, then the major 
manufacturers will jump in with both feet. One that is late to the game with 
their own effort will buy what is left of Tesla's auto business.  

I think Tesla will push its market to the point just below something that will 
interest major manufacturers.  Going further will doom them.

Ed
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 23, 2015, at 9:18 AM, tomw via EV  wrote:

> Is it capable of the 50kW continuous
> estimated for the full size pickup?

For this sort of back-of-the-envelope guesstimating, you can use a 1:1 
conversion for kW and HP. Getting 50 HP out of a 1800 cc aircooled VW motor is 
no problem. Getting even more out of something smaller and lighter using modern 
engineering methods should be trivial -- especially if designed to run only at 
the speed that corresponds with peak power output. The VW engine fully dressed, 
including clutch and intake and exhaust and the like, weighs a couple hundred 
pounds.

Generators are just motors run in reverse. The HPEVS AC-15 makes 60 HP and 
weighs 50 pounds.

If the engineering team of a major auto manufacturer couldn't make a 50 kW 
system suitable for an hybrid with a gross weight less than that of the typical 
American passenger...that team should be fired.

Cheers,

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Apples and oranges. This is a stationary generator in a steel permanent 
mounting container. Look at car engines that easily deliver 100kw of power 
while weighing 1/10 of that diesel generator. Heck, take a transaxle from a 
Prius as the motors are already PM and bolted to an engine and you have almost 
all parts of the setup. Just add a controller for injection and throttle 
opening motor drive while reading rpm and O2 sensors and you go. If you find a 
way to send the canbus commands to the inverter then you have electric start 
and regulation of output power for charging. Neat self-contained package. 
Cor

> On Oct 23, 2015, at 8:05 AM, tomw via EV  wrote:
> 
> You will need to add the weight of the generator to estimate energy/mile with
> it on board.  Here is a 48kW Generac at home depot, with weight of 2200 lb:
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Generac-Protector-Series-48-000-Watt-Liquid-Cooled-Automatic-Standby-Diesel-Generator-RD04834ADAE/205506807?cm_mmc=Shopping|THD|G|0|G-BASE-PLA-D28I-Generators|=CIPSs7zu2MgCFdgJgQodnFcNcg=aw.ds
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-GM-Would-Be-Smart-To-Launch-An-e-Pickup-Truck-Before-Tesla-tp4678263p4678291.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[tomw via EV]

Yes, the sheet steel shroud adds weight, but not near as much as the
generator itself, which the car engine doesn't have.  I don't know the
weight of the Prius powertrain.  Is it capable of the 50kW continuous
estimated for the full size pickup?  PM would definitely increase the
continuous power rating.  Its easier for a 10kW, they only weigh around 300
lb.

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I have taken a Prius transaxle apart and I can tell you that
by myself I can lift the block of the engine and I have also
wrestled the transaxle minus the largest (MG2) motor on and
off a truck bed with just my two hands, so the combination
with some external components such as air intake and exhaust
will probably come to around 300 lbs.
IIRC the rating for the Classic (which I took apart) is
15kW for the MG2, but the newer Prii have higher ratings
for the transaxle mostly due to higher operating voltage,
(500 iso 300V) so you can get at least 25 to 30 kW from it, 
more if you cool it better (these motors are splash-cooled 
without external cooler, so there is a lot to gain there, 
especially for continuous duty)
Since there are thermal sensors in the motors, it is trivial
to monitor their health.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of tomw via EV
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 9:19 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before 
Tesla

Yes, the sheet steel shroud adds weight, but not near as much as the generator 
itself, which the car engine doesn't have.  I don't know the weight of the 
Prius powertrain.  Is it capable of the 50kW continuous estimated for the full 
size pickup?  PM would definitely increase the continuous power rating.  Its 
easier for a 10kW, they only weigh around 300 lb.

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[Ed Blackmond via EV]

> On Oct 23, 2015, at 11:07 AM, Ben Goren via EV  wrote:
> 
> If the engineering team of a major auto manufacturer couldn't make a 50 kW 
> system suitable for an hybrid with a gross weight less than that of the 
> typical American passenger...that team should be fired.
> 
Unless they were not doing exactly what they were hired not to do.

The major auto manufacturers have all proven that they can make electric 
vehicles. They know the limitations of what they have produced, how to correct 
them, and how to manufacture EVs cost effectively. Now they are waiting for 
somebody to come along and spend the money to create a market. Once that 
happens, they will all make as many as people will buy.

Even Nissan knows how much they make selling EVs compared to ICEVs. EV revenue 
is insignificant in comparison. No manufacturer is going to spend money 
creating a market just to watch other manufacturers benefit from their 
investment.

Tesla created a market that didn't exist and isn't big enough for any major 
manufacturer to notice or care if they do notice. If Tesla  creates a market 
big enough to attract the attention of the major manufacturers, then the major 
manufacturers will jump in with both feet. One that is late to the game with 
their own effort will buy what is left of Tesla's auto business.  

I think Tesla will push its market to the point just below something that will 
interest major manufacturers.  Going further will doom them.

Ed
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 23, 2015, at 12:49 PM, Willie2 via EV  wrote:

> I have four of these: http://is.gd/j4BtyS on order for about $1300 each.

Updates on how those work out for you would be appreciated. Oh paper, they're 
worth considering for my PHEV Mustang

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[Willie2 via EV]

On 10/23/2015 02:14 PM, rick via EV wrote:
I have a converted Ranger. I seem to do about 500Wh/mile which gives 
me a 40 mile range. Most of the time that's plenty but I regret that I 
couldn't afford big enough batteries to give me 60 or 70 miles as I 
build furniture and some of the better hardwood outlets are more than 
20 miles away.

The next project in my ebike battery queue is a previously converted Ranger.
I have four of these:
http://is.gd/j4BtyS
on order for about $1300 each.  The equivalent price for monolithic 
LiFePo cells is $.97 /ah/cell.  But, that <$1 includes the BMS. Each 
battery should give me  4.3kwh of energy and up to 60 amps of current.  
I believe that 240amps will be sufficient but, if not, the modularity 
allows me to just add more batteries.  And, the same for range.  I 
really expect my energy consumption to be closer to 400 wh/m or about 
ten miles per battery.  If so, and 40 miles is not sufficient, I can 
just add more batteries.


The previous incarnation of this Ranger had 120v of 160ah LFP cells, 
just under 20kwh.  It was not driven on public roads, but I believe it 
had a range of about 50 miles.


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[rick via EV]

I have a converted Ranger. I seem to do about 500Wh/mile which gives me 
a 40 mile range. Most of the time that's plenty but I regret that I 
couldn't afford big enough batteries to give me 60 or 70 miles as I 
build furniture and some of the better hardwood outlets are more than 20 
miles away.


I used to drive an F-150 and I do miss the 6x8 foot bed (4 feet between 
the wheel wells). On the other hand the Ranger takes up a lot less space 
in the driveway and the 4x6 bed works for most things. I think the 
Aussies have the better idea, using what they call tray bodies. Flat 
beds on top of the wheels. A little high for some things but you get a 
flat surface.


All that said if someone came out with a small EV truck with reasonable 
mileage and price, I'd consider it.


--Rick

On 10/22/2015 02:52 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

It also occurs to me that most if not all of the smaller pickups have been
discontinued by major automakers, though I read recently that Ford is
thinking about re-introducing something around the size of the discontinued
Ranger.

A light, 150 mile or so small EV pickup with a proportionally large bed for
bulky items - on inspiriation of the highly versatile snub-nose pickups all
over Asia - might not do much for the Western US wide-open-spaces crowd, but
could be a successful niche vehicle for suburbanites. These are folks who
shop tag and rummage sales, and bring home a load from the big box home
center a couple times a year.  They apparently want lots of carrying
capacity "just in case I need it."  However, when it comes to open bed
vehicles, right now all they have to choose from in the US seem to be
awkward, relatively inefficient mid-size and large pickups.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[rick via EV]

I have 144v of 100Ah cells. You're going to have 120Ah so should get a 
little more range. My truck uses short bursts of 300amps to get going 
and around 60 amps to maintain 40mph on level roads. I have a couple of 
steep hills near me, however, that I need 500amps to climb. I'd be very 
concerned about such tiny wires.


--Rick

On 10/23/2015 03:49 PM, Willie2 via EV wrote:

On 10/23/2015 02:14 PM, rick via EV wrote:

I have a converted Ranger. I seem to do about 500Wh/mile which gives
me a 40 mile range. Most of the time that's plenty but I regret that I
couldn't afford big enough batteries to give me 60 or 70 miles as I
build furniture and some of the better hardwood outlets are more than
20 miles away.

The next project in my ebike battery queue is a previously converted
Ranger.
I have four of these:
http://is.gd/j4BtyS
on order for about $1300 each.  The equivalent price for monolithic
LiFePo cells is $.97 /ah/cell.  But, that <$1 includes the BMS. Each
battery should give me  4.3kwh of energy and up to 60 amps of current. I
believe that 240amps will be sufficient but, if not, the modularity
allows me to just add more batteries.  And, the same for range.  I
really expect my energy consumption to be closer to 400 wh/m or about
ten miles per battery.  If so, and 40 miles is not sufficient, I can
just add more batteries.

The previous incarnation of this Ranger had 120v of 160ah LFP cells,
just under 20kwh.  It was not driven on public roads, but I believe it
had a range of about 50 miles.

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[tomw via EV]

You will need to add the weight of the generator to estimate energy/mile with
it on board.  Here is a 48kW Generac at home depot, with weight of 2200 lb:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Generac-Protector-Series-48-000-Watt-Liquid-Cooled-Automatic-Standby-Diesel-Generator-RD04834ADAE/205506807?cm_mmc=Shopping|THD|G|0|G-BASE-PLA-D28I-Generators|=CIPSs7zu2MgCFdgJgQodnFcNcg=aw.ds



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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[Cor van de Water via EV]

In my book, instantaneous and peak are synonymous...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of John Lussmyer via EV
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 2:11 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Ben Goren
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before 
Tesla

On Fri Oct 23 13:29:35 PDT 2015 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>On Oct 23, 2015, at 12:49 PM, Willie2 via EV  wrote:
>
>> I have four of these: http://is.gd/j4BtyS on order for about $1300 each.
>
>Updates on how those work out for you would be appreciated. Oh paper, they're 
>worth considering for my PHEV Mustang

The specs are the usual jumble from chinese manufacturers.

Rated Discharge Current (A) 
30A 
Instantaneous Maximum Discharge Current (A) 40A 
Maximum Peak Discharge Current (A)  120A

See anything odd about the above?


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Fri Oct 23 13:29:35 PDT 2015 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>On Oct 23, 2015, at 12:49 PM, Willie2 via EV  wrote:
>
>> I have four of these: http://is.gd/j4BtyS on order for about $1300 each.
>
>Updates on how those work out for you would be appreciated. Oh paper, they're 
>worth considering for my PHEV Mustang

The specs are the usual jumble from chinese manufacturers.

Rated Discharge Current (A) 
30A 
Instantaneous Maximum Discharge Current (A) 40A 
Maximum Peak Discharge Current (A)  120A

See anything odd about the above?


--

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

There is no point in suggesting or wishing that EVs can or should replace 
ICEVs for every task.  In fact it's counterproductive.

ICEVs are the right choice for the long haul.  EVs are outstanding for light 
commuting and ESPECIALLY for stop-and-go short trips.  Short, never-really-
warmed-up trips are rough on an ICEV and trash its efficiency, but an EV 
will just shrug them off.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 22, 2015, at 9:35 AM, John Lussmyer  wrote:

> My truck cruises at around 30KW at 60mph.  A 10KW generator isn't going to 
> extend the range much at all.

Did I slip a decimal?

500 Wh / mile and 50 MPH (for easy numbers) is 2 miles per kWh is 25 kWh for an 
hour...or 25 kW.

I guess I did slip a decimal...sorry!

However, a pickup truck with, say, a 50 kW or even a 100 kW onboard generator 
(to add back the missing decimal) is going to be able to power much more than a 
small construction site and be that much more desirable to people who actually 
_use_ such vehicles. That, of course, is a rather different class of people 
from those who typically _buy_ them...it's a depressingly common irony to see 
impeccably-dressed people step out of immaculate huge trucks and SUVs and hand 
the keys to a valet at an expensive restaurant.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

It also occurs to me that most if not all of the smaller pickups have been 
discontinued by major automakers, though I read recently that Ford is 
thinking about re-introducing something around the size of the discontinued 
Ranger.  

A light, 150 mile or so small EV pickup with a proportionally large bed for 
bulky items - on inspiriation of the highly versatile snub-nose pickups all 
over Asia - might not do much for the Western US wide-open-spaces crowd, but 
could be a successful niche vehicle for suburbanites. These are folks who 
shop tag and rummage sales, and bring home a load from the big box home 
center a couple times a year.  They apparently want lots of carrying 
capacity "just in case I need it."  However, when it comes to open bed 
vehicles, right now all they have to choose from in the US seem to be 
awkward, relatively inefficient mid-size and large pickups.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Why *not* suggest or wish that EVs replace ICE for every task?

Yes, the right tool for the job (thought you didn't say that), and there are 
probably tasks that an EV won't make sense for, but the use of EV should be 
maximized. It may be that the technology for many of these tasks is too costly, 
not demonstrated, etc., but that's a short term view.

I would agree that there needs to be work done for long haul, as well as your 
articulation of EV strengths for short range, but don't sell the technology 
short over the long term.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 22, 2015, at 10:15 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> There is no point in suggesting or wishing that EVs can or should replace 
> ICEVs for every task.  In fact it's counterproductive.
> 
> ICEVs are the right choice for the long haul.  EVs are outstanding for light 
> commuting and ESPECIALLY for stop-and-go short trips.  Short, never-really-
> warmed-up trips are rough on an ICEV and trash its efficiency, but an EV 
> will just shrug them off.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Thu Oct 22 08:34:57 PDT 2015 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>On Oct 22, 2015, at 12:18 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
>
>> In order for the individual to
>> see the value proposition, the truck would need a range of at least 200-250
>> miles, a towing capacity of 4,000 lbs+, and cost under $60,000.
>
>We can do some math on that.
>
>Trucks, especially heavy-duty ones that can tow that much, are big and heavy 
>and tend to have poor aerodynamics. I'll be generous and suggest they might be 
>able to manage 500 Wh / mile, or two miles per kWh, though it'll almost 
>certainly be worse. And that's obviously for just the truck, unloaded.
>
>So, to target a 200 mile range for the unloaded truck, you'd need at least a 
>100 kWh (usable) battery. That's more battery than Tesla has ever sold in a 
>vehicle.

My Electric F-250 gets around 650Wh/Mile.   My range is about 70 miles.
No Towing.  (that would REALLY suck power!)
Even with those restrictions, I find it very useful.  I've had it at a bunch of 
car shows, and there have been quite a few people that think it would be useful 
to them, even with those restrictions.

That article requiring towing and a long range, sounds just like all the other 
EV articles that require cars to have a 400 miles range and charge in 5 
minutes.  Standard range anxiety.


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 22, 2015, at 12:18 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

> In order for the individual to
> see the value proposition, the truck would need a range of at least 200-250
> miles, a towing capacity of 4,000 lbs+, and cost under $60,000.

We can do some math on that.

Trucks, especially heavy-duty ones that can tow that much, are big and heavy 
and tend to have poor aerodynamics. I'll be generous and suggest they might be 
able to manage 500 Wh / mile, or two miles per kWh, though it'll almost 
certainly be worse. And that's obviously for just the truck, unloaded.

So, to target a 200 mile range for the unloaded truck, you'd need at least a 
100 kWh (usable) battery. That's more battery than Tesla has ever sold in a 
vehicle.

Now, load the truck down with 4,000 pounds in a decidedly-not-aerodynamic horse 
trailer and push the range to 250 miles? I think it'd still be generous to 
merely double the battery requirement.

And you're now looking at the same class of problem that rocket scientists 
face...a quarter of a megawatt-hour of battery capacity is itself going to be 
insanely heavy, requiring even _more_ battery to make up for all the extra 
battery you're hauling.

And all this is supposed to cost $15K _less_ than a base-model Tesla Model S?

I don't think so!

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 22, 2015, at 8:47 AM, John Lussmyer  wrote:

> My Electric F-250 gets around 650Wh/Mile.   My range is about 70 miles.
> No Towing.  (that would REALLY suck power!)
> Even with those restrictions, I find it very useful.  I've had it at a bunch 
> of car shows, and there have been quite a few people that think it would be 
> useful to them, even with those restrictions.
> 
> That article requiring towing and a long range, sounds just like all the 
> other EV articles that require cars to have a 400 miles range and charge in 5 
> minutes.  Standard range anxiety.

I've no doubt your truck is hugely useful. I can get by fine without a truck, 
but, were I to consider one, what you describe you have would likely be pretty 
much perfect for me.

But a demand for a truck that can tow 4,000+ pounds over 200 miles...well, that 
sounds to me like somebody who tows a large boat or a few horses, and that kind 
of towing can, especially in the West, easily involve well over 200 miles of 
such towing in a single day.

The problem here isn't that people are being unreasonable in their demands for 
performance specifications. The problem is with them expecting such performance 
specifications from an electric vehicle with today's chemistry.

As the news is demonstrating so well, diesel turns out to be a really, really 
poor choice for passenger vehicles, and electric versions of those same 
vehicles would be superior almost no matter how you measured them -- and mostly 
hugely superior.

But diesel is also far and away the best choice today for long-haul 
tractor-trailer rigs.

That's no contradiction; you just have to pick the horse for the course.

Between those two extremes there'll be overlap...which is why what the original 
author probably actually wants is a Volt-style plugin hybrid. Give it a 
powerful electric motor, a ~50 kWh battery...and an onboard 5 - 10 kW generator 
and a 30 gallon fuel tank. The generator will be more than able to keep the 
battery from running dry on long distances, plus you could then add a bunch of 
high-amperage 110V and 220V outlets. Now you've got a vehicle that's mostly 
electric powered with all those advantages, plus you can run your entire small 
construction site off of it. _That_ would be a vehicle you couldn't make enough 
of fast enough...though it's still going to come with a price tag similar to a 
Tesla's.

...and I vaguely remember hearing something about somebody offering exactly 
such vehicles for sale already

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Thu Oct 22 09:30:56 PDT 2015 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>Between those two extremes there'll be overlap...which is why what the 
>original author probably actually wants is a Volt-style plugin hybrid. Give it 
>a powerful electric motor, a ~50 kWh battery...and an onboard 5 - 10 kW 
>generator and a 30 gallon fuel tank. The generator will be more than able to 
>keep the battery from running dry on long distances, plus you could then add a 
>bunch of high-amperage 110V and 220V outlets. 

My truck cruises at around 30KW at 60mph.  A 10KW generator isn't going to 
extend the range much at all.


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