Re: God

meekerdb wrote: On 4/28/2015 10:59 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: meekerdb wrote: On 4/28/2015 9:18 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: meekerdb wrote: On 4/28/2015 7:27 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: But you fall foul of the essential slippage here. Arithmetic certainly supports all calculations -- as I point ou

Re: God

On 4/28/2015 10:59 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: meekerdb wrote: On 4/28/2015 9:18 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: meekerdb wrote: On 4/28/2015 7:27 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: But you fall foul of the essential slippage here. Arithmetic certainly supports all calculations -- as I point out elsewhere, all

Re: God

On 4/28/2015 10:57 PM, Jason Resch wrote: We're not talking of the existence of statements, but the existence of truths. It's a subtle but necessary distinction. If you can prove that the Nth state of program P with input I is X, then you can also prove that the (N+1)th state of that program P w

Re: God

meekerdb wrote: On 4/28/2015 9:18 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: meekerdb wrote: On 4/28/2015 7:27 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: But you fall foul of the essential slippage here. Arithmetic certainly supports all calculations -- as I point out elsewhere, all calculations ultimately reduce to counting.

Re: God

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 9:12 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 Jason Resch wrote: > > >> > If you believe >> > > I can't believe or disbelieve anything without a physical brain, or at > least that's what I believe. That is to say I believe I believe that. I > think. > You took a mea

Re: God

On 4/28/2015 9:18 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: meekerdb wrote: On 4/28/2015 7:27 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: But you fall foul of the essential slippage here. Arithmetic certainly supports all calculations -- as I point out elsewhere, all calculations ultimately reduce to counting. But this does not

Re: God

meekerdb wrote: On 4/28/2015 7:27 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: But you fall foul of the essential slippage here. Arithmetic certainly supports all calculations -- as I point out elsewhere, all calculations ultimately reduce to counting. But this does not mean that all calculations exist in Platon

Re: The dovetailer disassembled

On 29 April 2015 at 15:53, meekerdb wrote: > On 4/28/2015 8:54 PM, Russell Standish wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 02:32:02PM +1200, LizR wrote: > > e.g. "War and Peace" might be a single qualia? > > I always assumed "qualia" was the plural - so I guess the singular would be > "qualium" -

Re: The dovetailer disassembled

On 4/28/2015 8:54 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 02:32:02PM +1200, LizR wrote: e.g. "War and Peace" might be a single qualia? I always assumed "qualia" was the plural - so I guess the singular would be "qualium" - no, hang on it's "quale" isn't it? Anyway.I think we sh

Re: God

On 4/28/2015 7:27 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: But you fall foul of the essential slippage here. Arithmetic certainly supports all calculations -- as I point out elsewhere, all calculations ultimately reduce to counting. But this does not mean that all calculations exist in Platonia. The results of

Re: The dovetailer disassembled

On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 02:32:02PM +1200, LizR wrote: > > e.g. "War and Peace" might be a single qualia? > > I always assumed "qualia" was the plural - so I guess the singular would be > "qualium" - no, hang on it's "quale" isn't it? > > Anyway.I think we should save the quale. > Too much p

Re: The dovetailer disassembled

LizR wrote: e.g. "War and Peace" might be a single qualia? I always assumed "qualia" was the plural - so I guess the singular would be "qualium" - no, hang on it's "quale" isn't it? Anyway.I think we should save the quale. I thought the Japanese had given up qualing in the Southern Oc

Re: The dovetailer disassembled

> e.g. "War and Peace" might be a single qualia? I always assumed "qualia" was the plural - so I guess the singular would be "qualium" - no, hang on it's "quale" isn't it? Anyway.I think we should save the quale. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

Re: God

LizR wrote: On 29 April 2015 at 11:24, Bruce Kellett > wrote: I confess I did not know that "well known fact" and neither did anybody in Silicon Valley. What a shame companies like INTEL IBM and Apple have wasted tril

Re: God

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 a LizR wrote: > the value of pi exists timelessly in platonia Yes but that's not the only real number that exists in platonia, the number that is identical to pi except that its 10^10^100 digit is a 6 instead of a 7 exists in platonia too. John K Clark -- You received

Re: God

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 Jason Resch wrote: > > If you believe > I can't believe or disbelieve anything without a physical brain, or at least that's what I believe. That is to say I believe I believe that. I think. > > arithmetical truth is not dependent on humans or physical > approximations/in

Re: The dovetailer disassembled

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 06:43:58PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: > On 4/28/2015 5:13 PM, Russell Standish wrote: > >On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 03:53:15PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: > >>But aren't mental experiences, i.e. qualia, identified with finite > >>sequences of states of the TM running the UD? And so the

Re: The dovetailer disassembled

On 4/28/2015 5:13 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 03:53:15PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: But aren't mental experiences, i.e. qualia, identified with finite sequences of states of the TM running the UD? And so there can only be a finite number of different qualia. Finite? There'

Re: God

On 29 April 2015 at 11:24, Bruce Kellett wrote: > I confess I did not know that "well known fact" and neither did >> anybody in Silicon Valley. What a shame companies like INTEL IBM >> and Apple have wasted trillions of dollars in building hardware when >> if they had just asked

Re: Could the Holographic principle apply to our ever so slightly positively curved universe?

On 4/28/2015 3:02 PM, LizR wrote: Thanks. I'd be interested to know if this continues to pan out for other phenomena apart from the "entropy of entanglement". I believe the original version (with anti-deSitter space) allows quite a lot of phenomena that are intractable in one formulation to be

Re: God

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at Bruce Kellett wrote: > Given the definitions of '2', '4', '+', and '=', '2+2=4' is a tautology. Yes, but every correct equation is a tautology. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To uns

Re: God

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 LizR wrote: > So because Bruno considers that 2+2=4 is true everywhere, at all times, > in all universes, you think Bruno is saying that someone could build a > physical calculator that doesn't use energy? > Oh Bruno was claiming far more than that! Energy is just one aspect

Re: Could the Holographic principle apply to our ever so slightly positively curved universe?

On 29 April 2015 at 11:05, spudboy100 via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > You could like include this work by the U of Vienna, to Steinhart's > Promotion theory of information transfer. The nice thing is that curved or > flat or square, the digitalism still works no ma

Re: The dovetailer disassembled

On 29 April 2015 at 12:56, Bruce Kellett wrote: > Russell Standish wrote: > >> On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 10:12:27AM +1000, Bruce Kellett wrote: >> >>> As I understand your texts, the dovetailer itself generates the code >>> for each phi_i, so the dovetailer is a map from N to N^N. But each >>> pro

Re: The dovetailer disassembled

Russell Standish wrote: On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 10:12:27AM +1000, Bruce Kellett wrote: As I understand your texts, the dovetailer itself generates the code for each phi_i, so the dovetailer is a map from N to N^N. But each program is just a map from N to N -- the output of each (halting) progra

Re: God

On 4/28/2015 7:20 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 9:06 PM, John Clark > wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 , LizR mailto:lizj...@gmail.com>> wrote: >it is true that IF computation can be instantiated purely within arithmetic, THEN t

Re: God

On 4/28/2015 7:05 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote: Atheists can do evil, and so can religious capitalists-at least if we look at history over the last 400 years. It's not that people were not like this for thousands of years. It's merely that atheists identified and still identify with

Re: The dovetailer disassembled

On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 10:12:27AM +1000, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > As I understand your texts, the dovetailer itself generates the code > for each phi_i, so the dovetailer is a map from N to N^N. But each > program is just a map from N to N -- the output of each (halting) > program is just an int

Re: The dovetailer disassembled

Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Apr 2015, at 04:34, Bruce Kellett wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: Bruce seems to ignore the (mind-body) problem, and to miss that the UDA just helps to make that problem more precise, in the frame of computationalism, and to make it more amenable to more rigorous treat

Re: The dovetailer disassembled

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 03:53:15PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: > > But aren't mental experiences, i.e. qualia, identified with finite > sequences of states of the TM running the UD? And so there can only > be a finite number of different qualia. > Finite? There's at least a countable infinity of pos

Re: The dovetailer disassembled

On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 09:18:34AM +1000, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > There is some confusion about exactly what programs the UD runs. > According to Bruno in SANE04, he takes the set N of all natural > numbers, defines a total function as a mapping from N to N, and > computable if there is a program

Re: The dovetailer disassembled

Telmo Menezes wrote: On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 4:34 AM, Bruce Kellett Bruno Marchal wrote: Bruce seems to ignore the (mind-body) problem, and to miss that the UDA just helps to make that problem more precise, in the frame of computationalism, and to make it more amena

Re: God

LizR wrote: On 29 April 2015 at 05:35, John Clark > wrote: On 28 Apr 2015, , Bruce Kellett wrote: > I must admit that I do not know what a computation that does not utilize a computing machine (physical) is. Show me one, and

Re: The dovetailer disassembled

meekerdb wrote: On 4/27/2015 7:34 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: I think it is appropriate to look more closely at the dovetailer. As I understand it, the dovetailer calculates all computable functions over the natural numbers: phi_i(x) = y where x and y are natural numbers. In other words, phi_i

Re: God

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! -Monty Pythion -Original Message- From: LizR To: everything-list Sent: Tue, Apr 28, 2015 6:26 pm Subject: Re: God "Th Spanish Inquisition was 99% myth?" I didn't expect that! (Waits for suitable reply... :-)

Re: Could the Holographic principle apply to our ever so slightly positively curved universe?

You could like include this work by the U of Vienna, to Steinhart's Promotion theory of information transfer. The nice thing is that curved or flat or square, the digitalism still works no matter what the shape of space is. Also holographic theory seems to suggest an underpinning of computation,

Re: God

You think the Turks were Marxist? The whole Muslim world was mechantilist which included the sale of humans, which the Islamic world excelled in. The did bad things for money. The nazis also did, but they knew if they adopted a socialist economy for the industrial workers, they could keep them q

Re: Practicalities of Mind Uploading

On 4/28/2015 2:11 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-04-28 9:58 GMT+02:00 Russell Standish >: On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 10:59:33PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: > > No, I'm just saying they aren't available; and I think the in terms > of screen real estate, a

Re: The dovetailer disassembled

On 4/28/2015 12:52 AM, Russell Standish wrote: On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 12:34:28PM +1000, Bruce Kellett wrote: I think it is appropriate to look more closely at the dovetailer. As I understand it, the dovetailer calculates all computable functions over the natural numbers: phi_i(x) = y where x an

Re: The dovetailer disassembled

On 4/27/2015 7:34 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: I think it is appropriate to look more closely at the dovetailer. As I understand it, the dovetailer calculates all computable functions over the natural numbers: phi_i(x) = y where x and y are natural numbers. In other words, phi_i is a map of the se

Re: The dovetailer disassembled

Bruno, Speaking of the UD. At one point you mentioned that halting programs have no weight in the UD, but don't those halting programs recur an infinite number of times since the UD contains itself? Jason On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 2:01 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 28 Apr 2015, at 04:34, Bruce

Re: God

"Th Spanish Inquisition was 99% myth?" I didn't expect that! (Waits for suitable reply... :-) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-lis

Re: God

On 29 April 2015 at 10:03, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > It is boring to discuss with nominalist, because you can not discuss > anything but facts, > > And nobody knows any for sure. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscri

Re: God

On 29 April 2015 at 05:35, John Clark wrote: > On 28 Apr 2015, , Bruce Kellett wrote: > >> > > I must admit that I do not know what a computation that does not >>> utilize a computing machine (physical) is. Show me one, and indicate how it >>> works. >> >> > On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 Bruno Marchal

Re: God

It is boring to discuss with nominalist, because you can not discuss anything but facts, Look at the philosophical and theological considerations of my first comment here, that I consider crucial to understand and discuss and look at the boring and uninteresting details that I´m forced to discuss

Re: Could the Holographic principle apply to our ever so slightly positively curved universe?

Thanks. I'd be interested to know if this continues to pan out for other phenomena apart from the "entropy of entanglement". I believe the original version (with anti-deSitter space) allows quite a lot of phenomena that are intractable in one formulation to be worked out in the complementary one,

Re: God

No, I am just big in ideology is all whether it's capitalism or Chucky Marx. The Turks killed the Armenians because they were Kufar, yes indeed. They were also nominal capitalists and did massacre even when losing Armenian customers. So, you are saying that only communists kill? Nonsense. On

Re: The dovetailer disassembled

On 28 Apr 2015, at 04:34, Bruce Kellett wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: Bruce seems to ignore the (mind-body) problem, and to miss that the UDA just helps to make that problem more precise, in the frame of computationalism, and to make it more amenable to more rigorous treatments, ... without

Re: God

On 28 Apr 2015, , Bruce Kellett wrote: > > I must admit that I do not know what a computation that does not utilize >> a computing machine (physical) is. Show me one, and indicate how it works. > > On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 Bruno Marchal wrote: > > This is explained in all textbook in computabilit

RE: Could the Holographic principle apply to our ever so slightly positively curved universe?

The 'holographic principle,' the idea that a universe with gravity can be described by a quantum field theory in fewer dimensions, has been used for years as a mathematical tool in strange curved spaces. New results suggest that the holographic principle also holds in flat spaces. Our own universe

Re: The dovetailer disassembled

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 4:34 AM, Bruce Kellett wrote: > Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> >> Bruce seems to ignore the (mind-body) problem, and to miss that the UDA >> just helps to make that problem more precise, in the frame of >> computationalism, and to make it more amenable to more rigorous treatmen

Re: God

That the turks that massacred the armenians were capitalists and because that they killed a million armenians is the highest piece of idiocy that I have ever seen (sorry man) They were muslims that wanted to restore the caliphate. They killed armenians because it was the only christian minority wit

Re: God

Can a mind arise out of functioning computations? Not sure, but I am guessing its possible given enough time, data, and functioning computation. Some philosophers would call It a "naturalistic god" in the phraseology of philosophy. From all this craziness, I surmise sets of universes arising fro

Re: God

On 4/28/2015 12:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 27 Apr 2015, at 21:05, meekerdb wrote: On 4/27/2015 6:58 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Monday, April 27, 2015, Dennis Ochei > wrote: > I tend to agree that the word God has way too much baggage. I feel like it's used

Re: God

On 4/28/2015 12:35 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 27 Apr 2015, at 19:41, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 1:09 PM, Quentin Anciaux > wrote: >> Because although we haven't discovered it yet maybe mathematics is saying that particular physical

Re: God

On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 9:06 PM, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 , LizR wrote: > > >it is true that IF computation can be instantiated purely within >> arithmetic, THEN that won't increase entropy or use energy. > > > Yes absolutely, but that is a very very big if. > > Not really. If

Re: God

Atheists can do evil, and so can religious capitalists-at least if we look at history over the last 400 years. It's not that people were not like this for thousands of years. It's merely that atheists identified and still identify with Marxist principles, if only to irrigate the straight majori

Re: Practicalities of Mind Uploading

I like a wide display, it lets me put things next to each other (e.g. an email and a word doc) which is often quite handy. On a squarer screen they always tended to overlap too much. Actually I have two screens, one is old and squareish the other new and wideish. Between them I have just about enou

Re: The dovetailer disassembled

> A single-bit adder consists of 2 inputs and 2 outputs, which are basically the exclusive or and the and of the two input bits. Why not go more basic? Which god do you serve, NAND or NOR? On Tuesday, April 28, 2015, Russell Standish wrote: > On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 12:34:28PM +1000, Bruce Kelle

Re: Practicalities of Mind Uploading

2015-04-28 9:58 GMT+02:00 Russell Standish : > On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 10:59:33PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: > > > > No, I'm just saying they aren't available; and I think the in terms > > of screen real estate, a 17" 3840x2160 is actually a step down in > > functionality from a 17" 1920x1200. Sure i

Re: God

Some atheists believe unconsciously (because their faith is not fully developped and conscious, and they avoid thinking about it in every way possible, in the same way that primitive people) in inmutable phisical laws like quantuum mechanics or Relativity in the same way that 100 years ago they bel

Re: Step 3 - one step beyond?

On 28 Apr 2015, at 03:45, Bruce Kellett wrote: David Nyman wrote: On 27 April 2015 at 07:43, Bruce Kellett > wrote: Mose people get on living in the world by means of heuristics, or useful rules-of-thumb, that are good enough for most purposes. That

Re: Step 3 - one step beyond?

On 27 Apr 2015, at 20:24, meekerdb wrote: On 4/27/2015 4:07 AM, David Nyman wrote: On 27 April 2015 at 07:43, Bruce Kellett wrote: Mose people get on living in the world by means of heuristics, or useful rules-of-thumb, that are good enough for most purposes. That means, of course, tha

Re: God

On 27 Apr 2015, at 21:11, meekerdb wrote: On 4/27/2015 7:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But I think that's just another form of giving up or invoking magic, Why? On the contrary, it eliminates magic here. I don't see why you say so. Because it assumes that having found one theory that s

Re: Practicalities of Mind Uploading

On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 10:59:33PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: > > No, I'm just saying they aren't available; and I think the in terms > of screen real estate, a 17" 3840x2160 is actually a step down in > functionality from a 17" 1920x1200. Sure it's got more resolution, > but my eye isn't good enough

Re: God

On 27 Apr 2015, at 21:05, meekerdb wrote: On 4/27/2015 6:58 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Monday, April 27, 2015, Dennis Ochei wrote: > I tend to agree that the word God has way too much baggage. I feel like it's used to induce a fictitious sense of agreement. If you said you believed in

Re: The dovetailer disassembled

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 12:34:28PM +1000, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > I think it is appropriate to look more closely at the dovetailer. As > I understand it, the dovetailer calculates all computable functions > over the natural numbers: phi_i(x) = y where x and y are natural > numbers. In other words

Re: God

On 27 Apr 2015, at 19:41, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 1:09 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >> Because although we haven't discovered it yet maybe mathematics is saying that particular physical process (computation that uses energy and creates entropy) must exist or there wil

Re: God

On 28 Apr 2015, at 03:24, Bruce Kellett wrote: LizR wrote: Your statement seems quite definitely to say that you do know that computations must use energy and increase entropy. That assumes physicalism. I must admit that I do not know what a computation that does not utilize a computing

Re: God

On 28 Apr 2015, at 04:06, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 , LizR wrote: >it is true that IF computation can be instantiated purely within arithmetic, THEN that won't increase entropy or use energy. Yes absolutely, but that is a very very big if. No, it is NOT a big IF. It is

Re: Step 3 - one step beyond?

On 28 April 2015 at 10:44, LizR wrote: > On 28 April 2015 at 05:25, meekerdb wrote: >> >> On 4/27/2015 2:34 AM, David Nyman wrote: >> >> On 27 April 2015 at 07:43, Bruce Kellett >> wrote: >> >>> That all relies too much on the assumption that comp is true >> >> >> At the risk of pointing out the