Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/20/2014 12:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 19 Jan 2014, at 21:07, meekerdb wrote: On 1/19/2014 2:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I also find it unlikely that the subst level is above the quantum level. Or at least I think that if it's at the quantum level then we can guarantee tha

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/20/2014 12:25 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And to answer this properly, you have to define "physical existence of Brent" without using arithmetic. Brent:=the being who typed this sentence. (Or next time you're in California, come by and I'll give an ostensive definition - and a cup of coffee

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/20/2014 12:42 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 19 Jan 2014, at 22:31, meekerdb wrote: On 1/19/2014 9:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But why should that imply *existence*. It does not. Unless we believe in the axioms, which is the case for elementary arithmetic. But what does "belie

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/20/2014 1:09 AM, LizR wrote: On 20 January 2014 19:43, Russell Standish <mailto:li...@hpcoders.com.au>> wrote: On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 10:13:22PM -0800, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/19/2014 7:09 PM, Russell Standish wrote: > >That's not the definition. A ration

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/20/2014 1:11 AM, LizR wrote: On 20 January 2014 18:51, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: You seem not to appreciate that this dissipates the one essential advantage of mathematical monism: we understand mathematics (because, I say, we invent it). But if

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

In "The Once and Future King" it is a lampoon of government authority. Doesn't seem like a good source for metaphysical truth. Brent On 1/20/2014 1:15 AM, LizR wrote: Is that the motto of the Golden Dawn? On 20 January 2014 20:01, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@veriz

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/20/2014 1:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 20 Jan 2014, at 06:51, meekerdb wrote: On 1/19/2014 3:41 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Jan 19, 2014, at 3:31 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 1/19/2014 9:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But why should that imply *existence*. It does not. Unless we believe

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/20/2014 1:39 AM, Russell Standish wrote: On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 10:09:02PM +1300, LizR wrote: On 20 January 2014 19:43, Russell Standish wrote: On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 10:13:22PM -0800, meekerdb wrote: On 1/19/2014 7:09 PM, Russell Standish wrote: That's not the definiti

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/20/2014 1:46 AM, Russell Standish wrote: On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 09:46:11AM +0100, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >On 19 Jan 2014, at 22:41, Russell Standish wrote: > > > >I > >think we should keep all options on the table, and look for > >connections between them, as different techniques will pro

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/20/2014 9:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 20 Jan 2014, at 10:50, LizR wrote: On 20 January 2014 22:39, Russell Standish > wrote: The point about acting randomly is that clearly you are not optimising your utility. You a choosing something other than t

Re: A humble suggestion to the group

On 1/20/2014 11:18 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: There are obviously a lot of very intelligent members here who are well read in modern science. I think everyone would agree with this. Except for a few that are unfamiliar with relativity theory. Brent -- You received this message because you are s

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/20/2014 2:28 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 10:50:06PM +1300, LizR wrote: On 20 January 2014 22:39, Russell Standish wrote: The point about acting randomly is that clearly you are not optimising your utility. You a choosing something other than the optimum action, so

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/20/2014 2:44 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 09:41:04AM -0800, meekerdb wrote: But Russell seems to think that "specific reason" means some "objective", i.e. publicly determinable reason. In general one's utility function is private, subjectiv

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/20/2014 4:41 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 11:32 AM, meekerdb <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/20/2014 12:25 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And to answer this properly, you have to define "physical existence of

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/20/2014 5:00 PM, LizR wrote: On 21 January 2014 06:42, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/20/2014 1:11 AM, LizR wrote: On 20 January 2014 18:51, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: You seem not to appreciate that this dissip

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/20/2014 5:14 PM, LizR wrote: On 21 January 2014 06:28, John Clark > wrote: On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 3:50 PM, LizR mailto:lizj...@gmail.com>> wrote: >> I would buy the argument that mass murderer Charles Manson is the way a bunch

Re: The multiverse and the arrow of time - MWI experts please?

On 1/20/2014 5:18 PM, Pierz wrote: I am putting this out in order to clarify my understanding - hopefully the MWI experts out there can help me out here. A while back I asked whether the past can be undefined at a quantum level the way the future is. I asked this because I recall (somewhat vagu

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/20/2014 5:22 PM, LizR wrote: On 21 January 2014 06:41, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/20/2014 1:09 AM, LizR wrote: On 20 January 2014 19:43, Russell Standish mailto:li...@hpcoders.com.au>> wrote: On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 10:13:22PM -08

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/20/2014 5:32 PM, LizR wrote: I am beginning to think that Russell is using a very narrow or perhaps formal definition of rationality, in which case perhaps objections that random (or unpredictable) behaviour can be rational don't fit it, even though most people think that such actions are

Re: On differentiation of "universes" in MWI

On 1/20/2014 5:56 PM, Pierz wrote: A second question/thought on MWI. MWI proposes that the entire universe splits at the point of wave collapse, or rather that it is continually and infinitely splitting with every possible quantum state. This has been understandably criticised as a vastly extra

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/20/2014 6:28 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 6:59 PM, meekerdb <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/20/2014 4:41 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 11:32 AM, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/20/2014

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/20/2014 7:20 PM, LizR wrote: On 21 January 2014 14:25, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/20/2014 5:00 PM, LizR wrote: On 21 January 2014 06:42, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/20/2014 1:11 AM, LizR wrote: On 20 Jan

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/21/2014 2:04 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 20 Jan 2014, at 18:36, meekerdb wrote: On 1/20/2014 12:42 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 19 Jan 2014, at 22:31, meekerdb wrote: On 1/19/2014 9:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But why should that imply *existence*. It does not. Unless we believe in

Re: Modal Logic (Part 1: Leibniz)

On 1/21/2014 2:14 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Thanks for the info. It is very interesting and It helps in many ways. The problem with mathematical notation is that it is good to store and systematize knowledge, not to make it understandable. The transmission of knowledge can only be done by re

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

hat simple, alas. A computation is not a model. I have try hard to get a relation like that, because this would simplify the relation between UDA and AUDA. I progress on this, but that problem is not yet solved. Bruno On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 1:22 AM, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/21/2014 2:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 21 Jan 2014, at 02:25, meekerdb wrote: On 1/20/2014 5:00 PM, LizR wrote: On 21 January 2014 06:42, meekerdb <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/20/2014 1:11 AM, LizR wrote: On 20 January 2014 18:51, meekerdb mai

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/21/2014 2:32 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Only to make the UDA non valid. It works, if Brent meant a mathematical ultrafinitism. But this change comp, like it changes elementary arithmetic (which suppose at least that 0 ≠ s(x), and x ≠ y implies s(x) ≠ s(y), which can't be true in ultrafinitism

Re: Tegmark's New Book

On 1/21/2014 4:33 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: That is already present in Gödel 1931, and today we know that even just one diophantine (on integeres) polynomial of degree four can emulated all computations; or be Turing universal. Just to check that I understand what that means: There is a diophan

Re: On differentiation of "universes" in MWI

On 1/21/2014 5:33 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 21 Jan 2014, at 06:47, Pierz wrote: The question is whether a whole universe is created for each state in a superposition. Deutsch seems unequivocal that it is. Hmm, Deutsch might have change his mind. he was also sure that there is a base proble

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/21/2014 8:13 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Why would you want to do that? It seems like an unnecessary extra axiom that doesn't have any purpose or utility. It prevents the paradoxes of undeciability, Cantor diagonalization, and it corresponds more directly with how we actually use arithmetic.

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/21/2014 3:30 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 3:30 PM, meekerdb <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/21/2014 8:13 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Why would you want to do that? It seems like an unnecessary extra axiom that doesn't have any purp

Re: The multiverse and the arrow of time - MWI experts please?

On 1/21/2014 4:01 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 02:41:46PM +1300, LizR wrote: On 21 January 2014 14:18, Pierz wrote: I have been thinking about this and it occurs to me that firstly, the single history is only partially true. Since quantum interference patterns occur in

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/21/2014 4:13 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 10:18:32PM -0800, meekerdb wrote: But I see nothing that would imply that a rational agent is predictable or that he could not make a random choice. Brent Because assuming that more than one choice is available, and that

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/21/2014 4:33 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 02:32:23PM +1300, LizR wrote: I am beginning to think that Russell is using a very narrow or perhaps formal definition of rationality, in which case perhaps objections that random (or unpredictable) behaviour can be rational d

Re: A humble suggestion to the group

On 1/21/2014 4:56 PM, LizR wrote: iirc Dark Matter was discovered around 1933 by measuring the velocities of galaxies in clusters. By Fritz Zwicky, a fascinating guy I once had the pleasure of having beer with and listening to his 'war stories'. Brent -- You received this message because yo

Re: On differentiation of "universes" in MWI

On 1/21/2014 4:50 PM, LizR wrote: It seems to me that differentiation is local, and spreads slowly, and that there is always going to be some remerging (but only in proportion to the chances of entropy reversing). The an atom starts in a superposition of decayed and non-decayed. Now a cat is in

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/22/2014 1:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 21 Jan 2014, at 21:33, meekerdb wrote: On 1/21/2014 2:32 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Only to make the UDA non valid. It works, if Brent meant a mathematical ultrafinitism. But this change comp, like it changes elementary arithmetic (which suppose at

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/22/2014 1:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Jan 2014, at 01:02, meekerdb wrote: On 1/21/2014 3:30 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 3:30 PM, meekerdb <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/21/2014 8:13 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Why would you want t

Re: On differentiation of "universes" in MWI

On 1/22/2014 2:00 AM, LizR wrote: On 22 January 2014 16:34, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/21/2014 4:50 PM, LizR wrote: It seems to me that differentiation is local, and spreads slowly, and that there is always going to be some remerging (but o

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/22/2014 2:12 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Jan 2014, at 01:41, Russell Standish wrote: On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 12:53:33PM +0100, Bruno Marchal wrote: With some competence, I guess you mean. Without competence, and giving time to the creature, any universal machine do have an open-en

Re: On differentiation of "universes" in MWI

On 1/22/2014 6:25 PM, LizR wrote: On 23 January 2014 12:53, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: By having interacted in the (distant) past. If the universe is a pure quantum state then it has zero entropy, which means that all the complexity and information we see

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/22/2014 10:21 PM, LizR wrote: The real world doesn't add raindrops, or most other things we think of as entities - adding raindrops isn't 1+1, nature is really adding something like 10^25 atoms to another 10^25. But it _does_ add bosons in a BEC. Even when the constituents are indistinguis

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/22/2014 10:33 PM, LizR wrote: On 23 January 2014 08:22, Stephen Paul King > wrote: We need the Becoming that is implicit in the "moving flashlight", at least to give us a window of finite duration in time (and bits/space) to have a memory of "wh

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/22/2014 10:38 PM, LizR wrote: On 23 January 2014 19:35, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/22/2014 10:21 PM, LizR wrote: The real world doesn't add raindrops, or most other things we think of as entities - adding raindrops isn't 1+1,

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/23/2014 1:34 AM, Pierz wrote: Yes, dark energy *is* what he was talking about. Thanks for that clarification. The original expansion is just a result of the residual inertia of the big bang. I don't think you can look at it that way. If were just the motion, as away from the center of a

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/23/2014 1:52 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Jan 2014, at 00:34, meekerdb wrote: On 1/22/2014 1:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 21 Jan 2014, at 21:33, meekerdb wrote: On 1/21/2014 2:32 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Only to make the UDA non valid. It works, if Brent meant a mathematical

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/23/2014 2:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Jan 2014, at 00:45, meekerdb wrote: On 1/22/2014 1:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Jan 2014, at 01:02, meekerdb wrote: On 1/21/2014 3:30 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 3:30 PM, meekerdb <mailto:meeke...@verizon.

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/23/2014 2:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Jan 2014, at 07:42, meekerdb wrote: On 1/22/2014 10:38 PM, LizR wrote: On 23 January 2014 19:35, meekerdb <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/22/2014 10:21 PM, LizR wrote: The real world doesn't add rain

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/23/2014 2:40 PM, LizR wrote: This appears to be the fundamental "bone of contention" between you and Brent. He appears to believe arithmetic is a human invention which relates to reality because, well, (waves hands, and cunningly slips "AR" hat on) ... it just does, somehow. It relates to

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/23/2014 3:42 PM, LizR wrote: On 24 January 2014 11:51, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/23/2014 2:40 PM, LizR wrote: This appears to be the fundamental "bone of contention" between you and Brent. He appears to believe arithmetic is a human

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/23/2014 5:46 PM, LizR wrote: On 24 January 2014 14:40, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: I'd say a finitist form of arithmetic is a good description of some aspects of reality - but don't try to add raindrops or build Hilbert's Hotel.

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/23/2014 7:33 PM, LizR wrote: On 24 January 2014 16:08, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/23/2014 5:46 PM, LizR wrote: On 24 January 2014 14:40, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: I'd say a finitist form of arithmetic is a go

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/23/2014 11:59 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Only the idealized computations of Turing. Computations in my computer always stop. Because you assume that it exists in some ontological sense. That might be possible. My point is that if this was really the case, you can't say "yes" to the doctor

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/24/2014 12:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: In your aristotelian theology. But when working on the mind-body problem, it is better to abandon all prejudices on this. Indeed with comp, it is the concrete laptop which appears as an (unconscious preprogrammed) idealization. Of course I'd say reif

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/24/2014 5:01 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Liz, Once the warp is formed it can easily separate from the matter that caused it. At that point it is effectively just another mass of matter. That is why it's called dark matter. And of course masses separate from each other all the time. Don't t

Re: From i to u: Searching for the quantum master bit

On 1/24/2014 8:50 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: As for the question of quantum theory's irreality, perhaps we have just to learn to love /i/. After all, it is not just quantum mechanics where its influence is felt. Complex numbers are also increasingly vital in describing optical waveguides, transiti

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/24/2014 2:07 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 03:35:18PM -0500, John Clark wrote: True. As I said there is a small subset of the human race called "philosophers" who are in love with the word G-O-D but not with the concept of God, therefore they redefine the word accordin

Re: Tegmark's New Book

On 1/24/2014 2:58 PM, LizR wrote: On 25 January 2014 06:00, Edgar L. Owen mailto:edgaro...@att.net>> wrote: Liz, Stephen is correct here and you are wrong. As Stephen says "block time" is a BS theory. This is true for all sorts of reasons, a couple of which Stephen has just p

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/24/2014 2:58 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 02:12:57PM -0800, meekerdb wrote: You mention that you think octonion Hilbert space will be found to be more fundamental than complex Hilbert space. Of course many people have speculated that quaternions or octonions will be

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/24/2014 3:12 PM, LizR wrote: On 25 January 2014 11:59, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: A warp in space that is bound together by its own gravitation is what is known as a black hole. Technically I believe there is still a mass inside it, No, it's m

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/24/2014 4:41 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Brent, No, my proposed dark matter effect has nothing to do with black holes. Black holes are caused by accumulations of actual visible matter, not by the Hubble expansion of space... However I do have a question for you. Since gravitational changes

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/25/2014 3:07 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And even if they did, why would that cause me to say "no" to the doctor. By the UDA. If you say "yes" to the doctor, physics emerges from all computations, and even plausibly from those who do not stop, which have a higher measure than those which s

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/25/2014 5:29 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Brent, We have to be careful to be precisely accurate here. 1. The structure of a black hole is not just a singularity inside an event horizon. The entire interior of a black hole is not a singularity. The singularity exists only at the very center o

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/25/2014 5:19 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Brent, Obviously the space outside a black hole event horizon is warped. That's experimentally confirmed. My question is HOW does it become warped from the mass inside the black hole which you now claim doesn't even exist? There must be some cause.

Re: Tegmark's New Book

On 1/25/2014 1:19 PM, LizR wrote: On 26 January 2014 09:55, Stephen Paul King > wrote: Strictly speaking, no, time is not a dimension. We define sequences of associated events to be so in our mathematical representations. This is true of all physi

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/25/2014 4:37 PM, LizR wrote: On 26 January 2014 10:58, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: Sure. In the case of a star that collapses to a BH the cause is the matter which became so compressed that a singularity formed - and then the matter disappeared i

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/25/2014 4:55 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Brent, You seem to be saying 1. that the matter that enters a black hole through the event horizon warps space as it enters and 2. that then that space warp persists as the matter disappears into the singularity. 1. is of course correct but 2. isn't

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/25/2014 4:59 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Brent, PS: The Schwartzchild solution just gives the radius of the event horizon of a non-spinniing black hole. It says nothing about any matter disappearing. In fact it assumes the continual presence of the matter that creates the black hole. No, i

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/26/2014 7:29 AM, Jesse Mazer wrote: Also note that this is just a quirk of how Schwarzchild coordinates are defined, you can define other coordinate systems on the same curved spacetime that don't have this issue, like Kruskal-Szekeres coordinate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruskal–Sze

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/26/2014 3:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I have provided the definition. Should I repeat? God is the transcendental reality we bet on, and which is supposed to be responsible for my or our existence. Sounds like "physics" to me. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/26/2014 3:19 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Jan 2014, at 20:53, LizR wrote: I think you guys need to provide your definitions of God and compare them. I imagine they're rather different. I did. Very often. I did again in my preceding post to John Clark. And John did it also. For John,

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/26/2014 10:53 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: If what you claim was true everything that fell towards a black hole would never enter it and would be perpetually stuck around the boundary. You're not paying attention. The disagreement was whether a far away observer ever *sees* the infalling o

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/26/2014 10:53 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Jesse, Respectfully, I don't have time to argue what is well known. If you don't believe me ask others here, or a physicist. You already asked a physicist. I'm a physicist, and what you're selling is not only not well known, it's well known to be

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/26/2014 11:32 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Brent, There is no confusion. Sure, that's just the standard kiddy book diagram of a black hole with which everyone agrees (except Jesse Mazur who thinks nothing actually enters a black hole but instead piles up on the event horizon boundary - see h

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/26/2014 12:40 PM, LizR wrote: It's common knowledge - well, amongst people who are interested in this sort of thing - that an outside observer sees an infalling object get stuck just outside the event horizon of a black hole (and then fade away as it redshifts towards infinity) This was e

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/26/2014 1:45 PM, LizR wrote: OK, so your notion of God is "whatever is fundamentally responsible for existence" - hence primitive materialism makes matter (energy etc) play the part of God, in that sense. I can see that - an explanation that stops at matter and says "that's it!" is indeed

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/26/2014 6:44 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 14:08, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/26/2014 3:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I have provided the definition. Should I repeat? God is the transcendental reality we bet on, and which is supposed

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/26/2014 7:00 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 15:50, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/26/2014 1:45 PM, LizR wrote: OK, so your notion of God is "whatever is fundamentally responsible for existence" - hence primitive materialism makes ma

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/26/2014 7:22 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 15:25, Stephen Paul King > wrote: Dear LizR, George Spencer-Brown's Laws of Form are the place to start... I'll add that to my reading list. But on whi

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/26/2014 8:13 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: PS: A slight correction to one sentence in my post below. The rest is good My sentence "By the time they (the falling objects) are actually beyond the event horizon they are long gone from view." is ambiguous because it doesn't specify whose cloc

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/26/2014 9:19 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 17:31, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/26/2014 6:44 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 14:08, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/26/2014 3:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/27/2014 1:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Jan 2014, at 19:58, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy > wrote: > GREEK PHILOSOPHERS ARE IGNORAMUSES! I agree, all this Greek ancestor worship that I see around here

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/27/2014 2:28 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 02:08, meekerdb wrote: On 1/26/2014 3:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I have provided the definition. Should I repeat? God is the transcendental reality we bet on, and which is supposed to be responsible for my or our existence

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/27/2014 3:20 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 06:55, meekerdb wrote: On 1/26/2014 9:19 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 17:31, meekerdb <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/26/2014 6:44 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 14:08, meekerdb mai

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/27/2014 5:22 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Brent, I don't think my statement is confused. Your response is ambiguous because it doesn't specify frames of reference correctly. The object's clock DOES tick slower according to the external observer's clock, but obviously not by the object's OWN

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/27/2014 7:48 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Jesse, First this doesn't have anything to do with present moment theory, only with standard physics. 2nd, hopefully it's just a matter of you using different semantics than me as to what is meant by absolute and relative. I'll explain once more.

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/26/2014 2:14 PM, LizR wrote: Watching "Memento" gives some idea of what's really going on, by showing what life would be like after a partial breakdown of how the brain fools us into thinking we have continuous existence. It isn't too much of a stretch from imagining living in 5 minute seg

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/27/2014 9:07 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: "it was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be call

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/27/2014 12:12 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: So sure yeah, there's no limit to what you can do when you eliminate and don't care about x. Louis C.K. had a good one: "Wow, I can't believe we built the pyramids - yeah, we just threw human death and suffering at them until they were built.

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/27/2014 12:21 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 10:51 AM, John Clark > wrote: On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Jason Resch mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> wrote: > I use the exact same definition of life that MILLIONS of people on

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/27/2014 1:52 PM, LizR wrote: On 28 January 2014 06:46, John Clark > wrote: On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Bruno Marchal mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>> wrote: > You seem to take the Aristotelian (naturalist, materialist, physicalist) theology

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/27/2014 2:20 PM, LizR wrote: On 28 January 2014 09:42, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/26/2014 2:14 PM, LizR wrote: Watching "Memento" gives some idea of what's really going on, by showing what life would be like after a partial break

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/27/2014 2:32 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 10:09 PM, meekerdb <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/27/2014 12:12 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: So sure yeah, there's no limit to what you can do when you eliminate and don&#x

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/27/2014 4:03 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Brent, Please at least keep the record straight instead of making snide comments about me. I asked How does mass inside a BH produce an gravitational effect outside the event horizon if gravity propagates at the speed of light and nothing can go fast

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/27/2014 7:17 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Jan 27, 2014, at 4:38 PM, LizR mailto:lizj...@gmail.com>> wrote: On 28 January 2014 09:21, Jason Resch > wrote: But Jason I want to ask you a direct question, and this isn't rhetorical I'd really like a

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/27/2014 7:52 PM, John Mikes wrote: I wrote a narrative circumventing the BB, not to get a Nobel, but to raise doubts, eliminating the root-question: what was BEFORE the BB? how was and by whom decided to celebrate the first time-fraction (sec^-42?) and differentiate 'forces' at all? God is

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/27/2014 10:31 PM, LizR wrote: Hm. "GOAR" could be a goer. "Ground of all reality" is neat, and shares the first 2 letters with the previous one. Or how about BOAR - Basis of all reality? (Or how about GOATEE - Ground of all that ever exists :) Sadly I predict that theologians will conti

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/28/2014 12:32 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Yes, and most of the time, such eliminativism is a progress. WE eliminate the terms of the obsolete theories, like phlogiston, or like the cold and hot atoms of Lavoisier, or the N rays, etc. Just as an aside, "N rays" is now used to describe neutron

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/28/2014 12:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The problem is that once you suppress "God", you will make Matter into a God, and science into pseudo-religious scientism, with his train of authoritative arguments. why do you think the FPI is still ignored by most scientists? To say "I don't believ

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/28/2014 1:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: That would be like attributing importance to a name, at a place where precisely we should not attribute any importance. I would use "tao", that would make the results looking new-age. Use any another name, people will add more connotations than with the

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