Re: Re: Numbers in the Platonic Realm
Hi meekerdb My reaction is that nothing is perfect in this world anyway. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/1/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-30, 15:28:31 Subject: Re: Numbers in the Platonic Realm On 11/30/2012 10:02 AM, Roger Clough wrote: And a transcendent truth could be arithmetic truth or the truth of necessary logic. True in logic and formal mathematics is just marker "T" that is preserved by the rules of inference. In applications it is interpreted as if it were the correspondence meaning of 'true'. But like all applications of mathematics, it may be only approximate. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Numbers in the Platonic Realm
Hi Stephen P. King No, we can grasp truth by correspondence. And a transcendent truth could be arithmetic truth or the truth of necessary logic. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 11/30/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-30, 11:17:12 Subject: Re: Numbers in the Platonic Realm On 11/30/2012 9:10 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Hintakka's concept of truth is what is called "pragmatic truth", or "scientific truth". It's the same as Peirce's-- namely, what results when you carry out a particular protocol. Dear Roger, Sure, I agree. My point is that such is the only notion of truth that is within our ability to grasp. We obtain the transcendent notions of truth by abstraction in some infinite limit of the pragmatic truths. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 11/30/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-02, 18:20:11 Subject: Re: Numbers in the Platonic Realm On 11/2/2012 1:23 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> Are you familiar with Jaakko Hintikka's ideas? I am using his concept >> of game theoretic semantics to derive truth valuations. > > I read this. yes. I don't see relevant at all. > I do appreciate his linking of intention and intension, but it is a > bit trivial in the comp theory. > Dear Bruno, Hintikka's idea is to show how truth values can be coherently considered to be the result of a process and not necessarily just some a priori valuation. This makes Truth an emergent valuation, just as I content all definite properties are emergent from mutual agreements between entities. Properties, in the absence of the possibility of measurement or apprehension of some type, do not exist; they are what the 1p project onto existence. Nothing more. -- -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Numbers in the Platonic Realm
Hi Stephen P. King Hintakka's concept of truth is what is called "pragmatic truth", or "scientific truth". It's the same as Peirce's-- namely, what results when you carry out a particular protocol. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 11/30/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-02, 18:20:11 Subject: Re: Numbers in the Platonic Realm On 11/2/2012 1:23 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> Are you familiar with Jaakko Hintikka's ideas? I am using his concept >> of game theoretic semantics to derive truth valuations. > > I read this. yes. I don't see relevant at all. > I do appreciate his linking of intention and intension, but it is a > bit trivial in the comp theory. > Dear Bruno, Hintikka's idea is to show how truth values can be coherently considered to be the result of a process and not necessarily just some a priori valuation. This makes Truth an emergent valuation, just as I content all definite properties are emergent from mutual agreements between entities. Properties, in the absence of the possibility of measurement or apprehension of some type, do not exist; they are what the 1p project onto existence. Nothing more. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Numbers in the Platonic Realm
Hi Stephen P. King I don't think there's a better standard of truth. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-05, 13:39:57 Subject: Re: Numbers in the Platonic Realm On 11/5/2012 1:14 PM, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Stephen P. King > > Plato in the end confessed that the best he > could offer was a likely story. I see no reason > to doubt his authority. Nor of the Bible, > for that matter. Dear Roger, This tells me that you are OK with "arguments from authority". This saddens me! -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Numbers in the Platonic Realm
Hi Stephen P. King Plato in the end confessed that the best he could offer was a likely story. I see no reason to doubt his authority. Nor of the Bible, for that matter. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-03, 10:18:16 Subject: Re: Numbers in the Platonic Realm On 11/3/2012 8:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 03 Nov 2012, at 11:46, Stephen P. King wrote: > >> On 11/3/2012 5:18 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > How can anything emerge from something having non properties? Magic? Dear Bruno, No, necessity. The totality of existence, the One, cannot be complete and consistent simultaneously, >>> >>> Why not? The One is not a theory. >> >> Why does it have to be "a theory"? The concept of the One is a >> fragment of a theory... > > You make the same coinfusion again and again. The One is not the same > as the concept of the One. > > Does the One have a Concept of The One as its unique 1p? -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Numbers in the Platonic Realm
Hi Stephen P. King The platonic realm is nothing. Intelligence is nothing. Life itself is nothing. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/3/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-02, 23:17:40 Subject: Re: Numbers in the Platonic Realm On 11/2/2012 8:25 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > Either you can have emerging properties of nothing or you can't. > Either there is infinite regress or not, whatever is true (and one or > the other is), it's not an obstacle. Hi Questin, It depends on whether you think of Nothing as merely an absence of properties or a complete lack of existence. I believe in the former case. I don't have problems with infinite regress as I understand that an actual regress requires infinite "stuff" to be real. Explanation that push the problem behind a insurmountable curtain are not infinite regressive, they are merely evasions of the problem. They are attempt to get people to stop asking hard questions. I will not ever stop asking questions as I am not afraid of being wrong or foolish. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Numbers in the Platonic Realm
Hi Stephen P. King 1 + 1 =2 is a necessary truth, not a fact. It is always true. A priori. So there are necessary truths such as arithmetical truths which were here before the contingent world of facts was created. And will always be. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/3/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-02, 18:16:09 Subject: Re: Numbers in the Platonic Realm On 11/2/2012 1:23 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > You are the one saying that truth is limited to the means of knowing!!! Yes and no, Truth is limited to the *possibility* of knowledge of it. In the absence of the possibility of a statement being true (or false), there is not such thing as true or false. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Numbers in the Platonic Realm
Hi Stephen P. King The Platonic Realm doesn't exactly exist, because it is non-contradictory truth beyond spacetime. It is the a priori, the One, from which all things come. Sometimes I think of it as Cosmic Mind, Universal Intelligence, which has the attributes of God. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/3/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-02, 18:12:19 Subject: Re: Numbers in the Platonic Realm On 11/2/2012 1:23 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I can understand these symbols because there is at least a way to physically implement them. >>> >>> Those notion have nothing to do with "physical implementation". >> >> So your thinking about them is not a physical act? > > Too much ambiguous. Even staying in comp I can answer "yes" and "no". > Yes, because my human thinking is locally supported by physical events. > No, because the whole couple mind/physical events is supported by > platonic arithmetical truth. Dear Bruno, Where is the evidence of the existence of a Platonic realm? The mere self-consistency of an idea is proof of existence but the idea must be understood by a multiplicity of entities with the capacity to distinguish truth from falsehood to have any coherence as an idea! We cannot just assume that the mere existence of some undefined acts to determine the properties of the undefined. Truth and falsity are possible properties, they are not ontological aspects of existence. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Numbers in the Platonic Realm
Hi Quentin Anciaux Any statement that cannot be contradicted is always true. As such these truths are called "a priori". They were here before the world or you or me was created. Prime numbers seem to be such. A posteriori truths are truths of existence called facts. They may be contradicted, may not be always true or false. Today it is raining is such. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/3/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Quentin Anciaux Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-02, 20:25:00 Subject: Re: Numbers in the Platonic Realm 2012/11/2 Stephen P. King On 11/2/2012 1:23 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I can understand these symbols because there is at least a way to physically implement them. Those notion have nothing to do with "physical implementation". ? ? So your thinking about them is not a physical act? Too much ambiguous. Even staying in comp I can answer "yes" and "no". Yes, because my human thinking is locally supported by physical events. No, because the whole couple mind/physical events is supported by platonic arithmetical truth. Dear Bruno, ? ? Where is the evidence of the existence of a Platonic realm? The mere self-consistency of an idea is proof of existence but the idea must be understood by a multiplicity of entities with the capacity to distinguish truth from falsehood to have any coherence as an idea! We cannot just assume that the mere existence of some undefined acts to determine the properties of the undefined. Truth and falsity are possible properties, they are not ontological aspects of existence. Either? you can have emerging properties of nothing or you can't. Either there is infinite regress or not, whatever is true (and one or the other is), it's not an obstacle. Quentin -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Numbers in the Platonic Realm
Hi meekerdb I think the = sign allows a concept to be predicated, such as 2 = 1+1 where 1+1 is the predicate. A concept and a predicate form a proposition, and you need a proposition to judge whether something is true or false. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/31/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-30, 14:50:24 Subject: Re: Numbers in the Platonic Realm On 10/30/2012 10:39 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/30/2012 12:51 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Oct 2012, at 17:04, meekerdb wrote: On 10/30/2012 4:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: My argument is that concepts of truth and provability of theorems apply only to the concepts of numbers and their constructions, not to numbers themselves. Truth applies to proposition, or sentences representing them for some machine/numbers. If not, comp does not even makes sense. So your are agreeing? "Two" has no truth value, but "Two equals one plus one." does. Yes I agree. It seems I insisted on this a lot. But in this context, it seems that Stephen was using this to assert that the truth of, say "Two equals one plus one." depend on some numbers or subject having to discover it, or prove it. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ Dear Bruno, My point is that a number is not a capable of being an ontological primitive *and* having some particular set of values and meanings. A statement, such as 2 = 1+1 or two equals one plus one, are said truthfully to have the same meaning because there are multiple and separable entities that can have the agreement on the truth value. In the absence of the ability to judge a statement independently of any particular entity capable of "understanding" the statement, I think you are confusing the tokens "2 = 1+1" with the proposition 2 = 1+1. The former requires someone who understands the notation to interpret it, but the latter is the interpretation, i.e. the concept. A concept has meaning by definition, otherwise we say we cannot conceptualize it, e.g. klognee flarbles myrable, and so there is nothing to assign a truth value to. there is no meaning to the concept that the statement is true or false. To insist that a statement has a meaning and is true (or false) in an ontological condition where no entities capable of judging the meaning, begs the question of meaningfulness! That sounds like idealism, but whatever it is sll theories that will explain the world to us are going to have to apply to times and places where there are no humans. So I guess the question is whether 2=1+1 means to you what it means to the rest of us. If it does it can be part of our explanation. Brent You are taking for granted some things that your arguments disallow. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
