Hi meekerdb  

I think the = sign allows a concept to be predicated, such
as  2 = 1+1 where 1+1 is the predicate. A concept
and a predicate form a proposition, and you need
a proposition to judge whether something is true or false. 


Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
10/31/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 


----- Receiving the following content -----  
From: meekerdb  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-10-30, 14:50:24 
Subject: Re: Numbers in the Platonic Realm 


On 10/30/2012 10:39 AM, Stephen P. King wrote:  
On 10/30/2012 12:51 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: 



On 30 Oct 2012, at 17:04, meekerdb wrote: 


On 10/30/2012 4:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:  
My argument is that concepts of truth and provability of theorems apply only to 
the concepts of numbers and their constructions, not to numbers themselves. 



Truth applies to proposition, or sentences representing them for some 
machine/numbers. If not, comp does not even makes sense. 

So your are agreeing?  "Two" has no truth value, but "Two equals one plus one." 
does. 



Yes I agree. It seems I insisted on this a lot.  
But in this context, it seems that Stephen was using this to assert that the 
truth of, say  "Two equals one plus one." depend on some numbers or subject 
having to discover it, or prove it. 


Bruno 


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ 




Dear Bruno, 

    My point is that a number is not a capable of being an ontological 
primitive *and* having some particular set of values and meanings. A statement, 
such as 2 = 1+1 or two equals one plus one, are said truthfully to have the 
same meaning because there are multiple and separable entities that can have 
the agreement on the truth value. In the absence of the ability to judge a 
statement independently of any particular entity capable of "understanding" the 
statement, 

I think you are confusing the tokens "2 = 1+1" with the proposition 2 = 1+1.  
The former requires someone who understands the notation to interpret it, but 
the latter is the interpretation, i.e. the concept.  A concept has meaning by 
definition, otherwise we say we cannot conceptualize it, e.g. klognee flarbles 
myrable, and so there is nothing to assign a truth value to. 


there is no meaning to the concept that the statement is true or false. To 
insist that a statement has a meaning and is true (or false) in an ontological 
condition where no entities capable of judging the meaning, begs the question 
of meaningfulness! 


That sounds like idealism, but whatever it is sll theories that will explain 
the world to us are going to have to apply to times and places where there are 
no humans.  So I guess the question is whether 2=1+1 means to you what it means 
to the rest of us.  If it does it can be part of our explanation. 

Brent 


   You are taking for granted some things that your arguments disallow. 

--  
Onward! 

Stephen 
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